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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:56 PM
Original message
Mass Venezuela opposition rally
Tens of thousands of people have marched through the Venezuelan capital, Caracas, in support of the main opposition candidate, Manuel Rosales.

Mr Rosales will face President Hugo Chavez in December's presidential poll.

The march, which filled the main avenues of the city centre, was the biggest opposition rally Venezuela has seen since early 2004.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4801521.stm

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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Your U.S. tax dollars at work
Just a Florida 2000 repeat in South America.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3.  National Endowment for Democracy (NED) supports Rosales
Our tax dollars at work, indeed!
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I totally didn't know that. I wonder if this picture of the rally is
real or if they paid the people to attend....with our tax dollars. Some days I hate our govment. If this pic is real then it definitely doesn't look like these people are oppressed.

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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I strongly doubt NED pays directly for protesters to attend marches...
instead, they invest our money to influence the public by consistently funding just one political sector in Venezuela: the opposition to President Chvez.


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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. This isn't totally relevent, but the book in my sig line
has a part about how Mossadegh was able to get the uper hand on the Shah in '51 or '52. He resigned from parliament in a calculated gamble that paid off: the British-selected PM passed some crazy laws his first day and the masses spontaneously poured into the streets chanting "give us Mossadegh or give us death." Four days later, Mossadegh was the prime minister and the Shah made concessions that meant that Iran was going to be more democratic then ever before.

When the British reflected on their loss, they decided that one of their big failings was that the masses were on Mossadeghs side. They didn't think, "well, I guess the popular will prevailed." They though, next time we attempt a coup, we have to hire protesters. Which is what they did when Eisenhower became president and helped them, through the efforts of Kermit Roosevelt, in their coup against democracy in Iran.

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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. It's quite relevant.
Next time I get into some political reading, this book looks like a good choice.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
97. And anyone else who doesn't support US Corporate interests. n/t
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. We pay taxes. Congress figures out how to spend it. Millions go
to NED. NED in turn appears to do right wing type things with it. (Supporting CANF and other Cuban-American anti=Castro groups). CANF and other organizations then take some of it and put it in the pockets of Congresspeople. It's the NED circle of money transfers.

If you take a look at their members, you would question whether they are up to right wing activities. The CANF and other organizations was proof enough for me. Place this side-by-side with Republican door-pounders imported from DeLay's office staff and others - stopped the 2000 recount in Dade Co.

Most likely, the same thing is happening in Venezuela. Our leaders are desperate to take down Chavez - they got to get that oil moving again to Chevron? Was Chevron the main company buying oil-gas from Venezuela?

Yes, people will march for money. There is not much time to figure it out if the election is in December

It would help to know which income group the marchers come from.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. and if tens of thousands are reported
think hundreds if that. :eyes:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. A very witty riposte. All the more of a shame that it would be true.
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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. Our Tax dollars
caused tens of thousands to march against Chavez? Please enlighten me.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
72. Congress finances The National Endowment for Democracy (NED)...
and NED supports opposition to Hugo Chvez. Our tax dollars are doing Bushco's bidding, Savvy?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Again?
Yawn.

Will they at least stop claiming that Mr. Chavez is a dictator. I don't remember any "mass opposition" rallies held in the Soviet Union or East Germany, for example. If there CAN be a mass opposition rally, then Mr. Chavez isn't a dictator. QED.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. That's too sophisticated for them to understand.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Good point
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. That logic doesn't always work around here.
If you switch Bush with Chavez when someone is trying to declare that we live in fascist dictatorship in America.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. They'd be wrong about that, too
:-)
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. I believe generally we claim that this is a neo-fascist system.
Not a totalitarian fascist dictatorship. Certainly not a classic 1930's style strutting Mussolini style fascist dictatorship.

Instead we have protests and the Bullshit Media System simply erases them from history. They didn't happen. This is much more modern than beating people over the head. Much less messy and it so doesn't disturb the suburban masses.
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RDU Socialist Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. I can think of a pretty big mass opposition rally in the Soviet Union
it was called Solidarity, and there was quite a large rally in the Gdansk shipyard.

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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. And those types of rallies and protests were crushed, mercilessly...
Haven't seen that happen in Venezuela since 2002, during the Coup, the opposition killed many people in Caracas who opposed the coup.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I am not wrong
And the example of Poland does not disprove me, since Poland was not part of the Soviet Union. You happen not to know what the fuck you're talking about, but that's another matter.

The point in the post was simple: a dictatorship - supposing Venzuela was one - would attempt to crush mass rallies. The Solidarity movement that emerged in Poland (not the Soviet Union) in 1980 is actually a case in my favor. The Polish government declared martial law in 1981 in response to the movement, and did everything in its power to repress it. The movement succeeded in bringing down not only the dictatorship in Poland, but, by extension, the Soviet dictatorship itself.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. That would be Poland
And it was the beginning of the end of the dictatorships. It was also brutally repressed.
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RDU Socialist Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. and, I'm afraid to tell you, Poland was part of the Soviet Union
the person I'm replying to's point was there were no mass opposition rallies in the Soviet Union. Solidarity was a mass opposition rally.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Um, no.
Poland was Poland, a separate country.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Poland was NOT part of the Soviet Union
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 09:20 PM by alcibiades_mystery
Poland was a separate nation state in the Soviet bloc, but the Soviet Union refers to the specific territories: Armenian SSR, Azerbaijan SSR, Byelorussian SSR, Estonian SSR, Georgian SSR, Kazakh SSR, Kyrgyz SSR, Latvian SSR, Lithuanian SSR, Moldavian SSR, Russian SFSR, Tajik SSR, Turkmen SSR, Ukrainian SSR, and Uzbek SSR.

You happen to be just plain wrong on this point.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Wait a second here...
I thought RDU Socialist(why he calls himself that, I have no idea) was just being "loose" in his definition of "Soviet Union", to be honest, I didn't think about it in my response. I knew he was talking about the POLISH solidarity movement, but to think he actually thought Poland was actually a member state of the USSR?

:rofl:

Hey RDU Socialist, can you read a map?

http://geography.unco.edu/department/faculty/DUNN/Geog%...

Click on Russia.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Huh?
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
48. That was in Poland - very different.
Poland's leaders were liberal compared with Brezhnev et al. There were some strikes and protests in the Soviet Union, but they were certainly attacked and broken up, until Gorbachev changed things. That the media are controlled by anti-Chavists runs in the face of the "dictatorship" argument.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Unlike The Good Ole US of A, You Mean? n/t
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. do you remember Tienamen Square
using your logic, China isn't a dictatorship

of course, the government there allowed demonstrations for a while until they rolled the tanks in
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. You're barking up the wrong tree on this score.
It was a Venezuelan President from the OPPOSITION, Carlos Andres Perez, who was later impeached for massive corruption, who had his troops fire into crowds of protesting poor people in Caracas after he increased the price of their transportation 200% who acted like a "dictator."

The opposition in Venezuela still adore him, and he has called publicly for Chavez to be gunned down. He lives at home in New York and Miami now.



The impeached mass-murdering Carlos Andres Perez.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. go back and read the post I was responding to
the original post said that demonstrations aren't held in dictatorships

I brought up Tienamen Square to prove the poster wrong

have a nice day
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. The subtle points you addressed eluded me. Sorry. n/t
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. me subtle?
:rofl:

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. When the tanks roll in in Caracas, you let me know
At that point, you'll be right. Until that point, you're plain old wrong.

Never mind that Venezuela had a recall election last year that featured numerous "opposition" rallies. Of course, the opposition parties decided to boycott the election. You usually lose elections that way. I'm just sayin'...

Using your logic, any country is a dictatorship, since there is always the potential to roll out the tanks! Either way, the term is meaningless. When you show me evidence of repression equal to that in Tienamenn Square, or martial law under the Polish communist regime, I won't burst out laughing at the notion that Venezuela is a dictatorship. Better yet, when you show me mass opposition rallies in North Korea, then go ahead and make your argument from parallel case. Until then, it seems that opposition parties have full freedom to function and run candidates, and assemble, and speak freely. And that ain't a dictatorship, son.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. go back and read the post I was responding to
I was not comparing Chavez to the Chinese

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. I don't have to read it...I wrote it
And I know very well what my point was. Are there mass rallies in dictatorships? I suppose there are some, but they are violently repressed in almost all cases. Where they are not successfully repressed, they are the direct cause of the downfall of the dictatorships. We see none of this in venezuela. Therefore, Chavez is not a dictator. That's the point of my post that you were responding to, and that remains my point.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #74
81. actually there are rallies
and not all are violently repressed in the beginning-give Chavez time, I'm sure he'll start sending the troops out any day

Chavez is still trying to portray himself as a democratic leader

democratic leaders don't pal around with one of the most notorious dictators in the Western Hemisphere in Castro and certainly don't ally themselves with theocrats like those in charge of Iran

has he come out in support of the North Korean nuclear test yet?
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. Again, when he sends out the troops, you'll be right
Until that time, you're wrong.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. notice that you didn't say IF he sends out the troops
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. I was assuming your premise
To show you that even under your own premise, your point is meaningless without corresponding substance.

Nice try, though. :eyes:
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. you know what they say about assuming
nice try though

and no need to be snarky

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. hey man, it's your premise
can't help it if you don't like the consequences of your own argument.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #81
94. He IS a democratic leader.
Unless, of course, you believe that the UN, the OAS, and the Carter Center sign off on undemocratic elections.

(Hint: they don't, and you're wrong.)

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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
7.  But...but they have no freedom to demonstrate in Venezuela!
Cuz Chavez shoves them all into a "free speech zone" so he doesn't have to look at them. Oh wait, no that's Bush.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Caracas and Oil City Maracaibo Have Anti-Chavez Majorities
Chavez's core support is out in the sticks. Just like in the US, a lot of taxi drivers, churchgoers, and corporate employees vote for the right-wing party.

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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Caracas does not
I saw it on live TV from rooftops the demo was around 20,000 tops
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. They had a legitimate 50k-100k for the recall, right?
So this is a significant drop in popular support for the opposition, no?
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yes it was way bigger before, back when the opo was 40%


Right now this is the best picture of yesterday's gathering that I have seen but it might have been taken a few minutes early.

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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. And these protests are in high-density rich neighborhoods in Caracas
People just need to walk out their doors to get crowds as big as the ones from the recall.

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lgn19087 Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. What do you think?
probly at least 70k, if not more.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
44. I Was Referring to Caracas's Anti-Chavez Mayor
They must have had a majority on election day.
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
75. Caracas does not really have a anti-Chavez mayor
In order to limit his power Caracas is divided into districts each with a mayor Libertador, Sucre, Hatillo, Chacao (opo), Baruta(opo) and then a general metropolitan mayor, obviously the old metropolitan mayor was voted out.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. It's possible the poster was thinking of the departed Alfredo Pea
He was known as a Chavez-hater for a long time, and he's the one who shut down the people's tv station, Catia TV, so only the opposition stations, some owned by Bush family friend, Gustavo Cisneros, were operating.

You can do some checking, and you'll find lots of references to the time this creep simply shut down the only tv station not owned by the "opposition" forces. It was clearly an attempt to surpress all other voices beyond their own!

Here's a reference to some of the violence which went on in Caracas under Pea:
"The metropolitan police of Caracas, in an act of evident provocation, made very rapid maneuvers in which they gratuitously attacked the sector of the demonstrations that was in favor of the (national) government, whom they violently beat and attacked with rubber bullet gunshots," Dupret wrote in an official statement. He says the police are controlled by Caracas' mayor Alfredo Pena who is openly opposed to the Chavez government and its social reforms.
(snip)
http://www.franz-lee.org/files/pandemonium00695.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


A quick reference to the time he shut down Catia TV:
Pea won the Caracas mayor's seat in December 2000 with backing from Chvez's ruling Fifth Republic Movement (MVR), but over the following year he began to distance himself from the federal government and ultimately became a leader of the opposition bloc that is seeking the president's removal from office.

Officials from city hall closed our offices with bars and locks on July 10, and blocked our access to the studios, antenna and transmission equipment, said station director Mrquez.

Catia TV president Blanca Eekhout commented that the closure is a flagrant offence against freedom of expression in a community that has produced and broadcast its own programmes for the past year and a half, and harkens back to the attacks on the community media outlets during the dictatorship of Pedro Carmona.
(snip)
http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=19274

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


There's a whole lot of nasty stuff he did to supporters of Hugo Chavez. When I get some time I'm going to start compiling a file on this.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. I Did Not Know That
and my information was from several years ago. Are you saying that the general metropolitan mayor used to be an anti-Chavez politician but was voted out? By popular vote? By "to limit his power," are you saying that this was something that was done a long time ago to limit the position of mayor, or was a recent thing done to counter Chavez?
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #82
96. He was voted out the current metro mayor now is Barreto
A Chavez ally.

Caracas has always been decentralized like that as least as far as I can remember, Chacao is the commercial district, Baruta is where most of the upper classes live.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #8
101. Most citizens of Caracas are poor.
Where US cities have suburbs, cities of Venezuela has slums. The poor are pro Chavez.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. There are stupid people everywhere
Look at all the people who show up for * rallies in this country.

I thought all Venezuelan anti-Chavez types were in jail? That's what we keep hearing.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
95. Yeah, and some of them are on DU insisting Chavez is a dictator.
Unbelievable how wrong they can be, even after they've been shown the truth AGAIN and AGAIN.

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. boosh said they didn't have no freedoms venizolo.
how come theys demon-straighten?
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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Are you sure this isn't fake?
I'm pretty sure Hugo Chavez is a dictator.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
49. Nope.
Do some research.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. How many times has Chavez faced reelection?
And why has Bush only faced one challenge?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. Where are Chavez's Darth Vader cops, pepper spray hoses, tear gas,
agents provocateur burning trash cans and breaking windows, no free speech zones, rubber bullets, police buses and holding pens for detaining protesters with no food and water or toilet facilities, cadres of armed cops and military vehicles everywhere to intimidate people, police barricades forbidding free movement and "protecting" government and corporate buildings, and government propaganda all over TV to smear the opposition as disruptive and violent?

The Corporatists did all of this and more to 50,000 of us Americans in Seattle in 1999, and there perfected their fascist techniques for marginalizing mass protests throughout the Bush Junta, and on into the future.

I hope this large demo (whatever the payoffs were in U.S. tax dollars) forever puts to rest the Bushite/corporate meme that Chavez is "authoritarian," and helps educate the public on which country is a democracy and which one isn't.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. 10 arrested in Portland Thursday -
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. Oh, I'm sorry; I thought it said "MISS Venezuela Opposition Rally,"
So I didn't understand what all the fuss was for.

Redstone
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
23.  further proof that venezuela is a democracy.
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 06:54 PM by MATTMAN
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. But Bush & his cohorts claim that Chavez is a dictator...
If Chavez were a dictator, would he allow an opposition rally? Would he allow opposition newspapers and TV stations to oppose him? Perhaps Chavez is not a dictator like our Blessed President Bush says he is, but is a democratic elected leader...

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Nebraska_Liberal Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
51. Hasn't Chavez amended his own constitution...
to allow him to run again for President? I know that is quite a popular idea. Not saying that term limits are democratic, but doesnt that kind of show how he is more concerned about preserving his OWN power?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. No he has not amended "his" "own" constitution.
That would take a vote in the National Assembly.

Don't spread disinformation.
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Nebraska_Liberal Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Here is what I have read...
'The BBC says that Chavez "has made no secret of the fact that he is in favour of amending the constitution so that he can run again for president in 2012."'

Those crazy fascists at the BBC must be spreading there imperialist lies...

"In spite of a presidential term limit of 12 years, according to The Economist, Chvez often suggests that he will remain in power for 25 years, a claim he denies as a misinterpretation of his intent."

The Economist, another source that can't be trusted...

Both quotes taken from wikipedia.

For your information the constitution is basically Chavez's. He helped to form it in 1999 while he was in power. Why didn't he just put the provision to make him president for life in 1999?

I was a Chavez supporter, but more recently he just looks like another self centered, cult of personality, semidictatorial asshole. He is probably better for the people than the last guy, but he is not the great savior like people make him out to be.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. As you said in your post, "Hasn't Chavez amended his own constitution...
to allow him to run again for President?"

The answer would be "no." He can't do that.

You would do well to spend your time reading far, far more on the subject.
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Nebraska_Liberal Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. He hasn't yet.
You want to make a friendly wager he will? My guess is that he is in power long after his term limits that HE SET UP in 1999 are up.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. He can't run again until the Venezuelan national assembly changes
the law.

If they do change the law, and he runs, it's STILL not as if he, himself, seized power.

You aren't going to sell your "dictator" story here. DU'ers are far more informed than that.
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Nebraska_Liberal Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Also, look at the makeup of the assembly.
It is a strong majority of Chavez's party, after he swept a contested election where only 20% of the population voted. That is democracy...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. As DU'ers are well aware, having discussed it for ages, the opposition
boycotted the last elections because they knew they were going to lose but GOOD, and tried to save themselves the embarrassment by refusing to participate.

We discussed it here at the time.
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Nebraska_Liberal Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. I am sorry, I just look at both sides of the coin equally.
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 04:22 PM by Nebraska_Liberal
This is one of my problems with DU and every other political discussion forum, there person can do no wrong and people continue to legitimize their actions. You give Chavez a pass on openly discussing a very apparent power grab. What if Bush tried this? People here would be outraged, and rightly so. Why dont you tell the mexican people that PAN won there last election and that PRD simply lost? You would not do that because you are more ideologically on the side of PRD.

You will probably counter that there have been reports of election fraud in Mexico, but all of Chavez's elections have been just as disputed. Even the Carter Center has said that one was not operated properly.

The moral of the story is that there is always some yahoo disupting elections, so you have to make a choice: to decide who is right and who is wrong based on ideology, like you do. Or you can look at each instance objectively.

To me, even though I agree with some of Chavez's policies(land reform, ect), if it walks like a duck and quacks it is most likely a duck. If any leader makes it clear that he or she wants to extend his reign of power beyond terms that HE OR SHE AGREED TO, it smells like a power grab and to me stinks.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. You instintctively "know" I am on "the side" of the PRI?
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 04:27 PM by Judi Lynn
You may want to be reminded that Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador comes from the PDR.

As for the Carter Center, it may do you some good to have your memory refreshened by this snippet:
On Monday, we had supper with Chavez and found him eager to begin substantive dialogues with responsible opposition leaders who are willing to reciprocate. We urged him to show generosity to Smate and some others who are being accused of crimes going back to the coup against him and to ensure a balanced membership of CNE as local and state elections are planned late in September. He was receptive to these suggestions and supported an additional audit of electronic paper ballot backups from the machines that would assuage any remaining doubters.
(snip)

.... Although the country was peaceful, some opposition leaders were still in anguish, as indicated by Tuesday morning newspaper editorial headlines, "Catstrofe," "El Fraude Permanente," and "Serias Dudas." After meeting with Smate and other opposition representatives who claimed there were differences between paper ballot backups and electronically transmitted results, we agreed to have a second audit process to double check the correlation. We made it clear to them and to the public that this did not imply any doubt by The Carter Center or OAS regarding the integrity of the electoral process or the accuracy of the reported results.
(snip)
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html
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Nebraska_Liberal Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Only time will tell....
If El Hefe will stand down when he is supposed to. And when he doesn't, remember where you heard it first. ;)
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. You said that you used to be a Chavez supporter.
When was that, exactly?

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. "I Am A Lifelong (something) But..."
one of the oldest tricks ever. Yawn.
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Nebraska_Liberal Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #67
90. You dont know me...
So I am telling you where I am coming from. I stated that I support quite a few things he has done. The point I have been trying to make however is that even though he has done some good things, Chavez is in reality just another power hungry politician, not some savior of the masses like some of you make him out to be.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Maybe you'll be kind enough to point out any instance in which one
DU'er has EVER written that Chavez is a "savior of the masses."

Trying to make DU'ers sound childish, or weak-minded is simply nasty, and underhanded. It doesn't speak well for you.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. There have been several posters who've tried to make the same assertions
already, perfectly familiar by now.

As the Venezuelan people have stated, their movement will go forward, with or without Hugo Chavez. They aren't expecting him to do it all himself. It started long before he was elected, and will continue after he is out of office.

The people who lived through events like this aren't even close to giving up.

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greccogirl Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
39. Gee, what a shock.
I thought every single man was a Chavez supporter?
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. That's what they call a 'straw man' argument, since nobody ever said that
Foolish, foolish.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #45
80. This Poor Poster Is Almost Always Confused
I don't put them on ignore because they are good for a laugh. She needs a new playbook poor dear.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
50. You can hold a pro-Bush & pro-family rally in Carmel, Indiana
and you will get the same kind of crowd: white and well-to-do.

You can hold the same rally in the neighborhood I live in, and you will be lucky to get a stray dog to show up.

The divisions in Venezuela are along class and racial lines. The ruling class, and their allies in the bourgeoisie, are proud of their European bloodlines, and they look down with disdained at their colored and indigenous compatriots.

Much the same attitude you will find with the well-to-do that live in Carmel, Indiana.
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ToeBot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
46. Looks like their 'Free Speech Zones' are bigger than ours! nt
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
47. tens of thousands is nada!
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
77. Not quite the dictatorship
Edited on Tue Oct-10-06 12:17 AM by fujiyama
Bush and US propaganda make it out to be...

But, I don't believe Venezuela is as democratic as some DUers make it out to be, and I think Chavez obviously has some authoritarian tendancies.

But frankly, I've heard so much propaganda against him and attacks against him that it's old and tiring. I mean, even Jon Stewart bashes him and then has a thuggish dictator that came to power in a military coup and he calls him "president" and kisses his ass on his show (I'm talking about Musharraf of Pakistan). Chavez strikes me as more legitimate than several other world leaders like that of China, and Putin of Russia (during whose tenure several journalists critical of him have been murdered execution style). None of those countries' leaders get nearly as bad press in the western media.

Hopefully he'll allow for a free and fair election, and if defeated will step down in an orderly fashion.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Hugo Chavez did NOT "take power" through a coup.
He led a coup attempt against a President (later impeached for massive corruption) who ordered government troops to fire into crowds of protesting poor Venezuelans who couldn't cope with the 200% increase he placed on their transportation costs.

Chavez lost the attempt, surrendered, served time in prison, was released, later pardoned by another Venezuelan President.

Lazy minds don't feel they've got to investigate stories themselves, as they imagine everything they need to know will be handed to them.

That's why you have so many ignorant ass#oles offering their ridiculous opinions, based on spotty, if not bogus information altogether.

Once you start watching the press he gets in the States, and it seems you have, you'll start seeing their is an unbroken smear pattern, with NO exceptions. They are closed down completely against him: only going to print slurs and misrepresentations.

It takes a long time for the truth to surface under such a massive effort to keep it buried.
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DrunkenMaster Donating Member (582 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. great post
You do a great job fighting the disinfo that is in disgustingly easy reach around these parts. Peace.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Very kind post, DrunkenMaster.
It's great to know you're someone who hasn't been bamboozled by our corporate media!
Thank you, so much. Welcome to D.U. Very glad to hear from you.
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kangaroo77 Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
78. Last paragraph
"But for now, Mr Chavez still enjoys a clear lead in opinion polls because of a sense of loyalty that poor and working-class voters feel towards him."
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humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
83. Gas on the rise soon..
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
98. I wonder if that pic isn't OF 2004--that looks like more than tens of
thousands.

Or is that yellow flag a symbol of the opposition party.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
99. for those trying to claim Chavez suppress free speech, I heard a
press conference with him, and a reporter from paper that backed the coup against him asked a more combative question than I have heard any American reporter asked Bush.


Who is the Dan Rather that Chavez chased off the air?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
100. BBC reporter lied: rally wasn't so massive, after all!
Edited on Fri Oct-13-06 05:35 AM by Judi Lynn
October 12, 2006 at 06:21:18

BBC Guilty of Venality In Its Misreporting on Venezuela

by Stephen Lendman

BBC Guilty of Venality in Its Misreporting on Venezuela - by Stephen Lendman

Listeners and viewers expecting to find a safe alternative to the corporate-controlled media by turning to the BBC better reconsider their choice based on the vaunted news organization's reporting on Venezuela and specifically on the misinformation it put out in an online piece on October 8 titled - "Mass Venezuela opposition rally." It claims "Tens of thousands of people have marched through the Venezuelan capital, Caracas, in support of the main opposition candidate, Manuel Rosales."

If readers of this piece just went to VHeadline.com, they'd have gotten a much different picture - from the actual photo of those "tens of thousands" that, in fact, may have been all of a single ten thousand or so in the streets in a show of tepid support at best and not what anyone would call "mass." Shame on BBC and its reporter in Caracas Greg Morsbach for lying for the power interests he serves, so he reports what they want put out even if it's not true.

Based in Caracas for the BBC, correspondent Morsbach must knows a massive crowd when he sees one as Hugo Chavez draws them every time he addresses a rally that routinely turns out en masse in a tsunami of red-shirted supporters to see, hear and cheer him. He surely can tell the difference between a huge Chavez crowd and the puny one for Mr. Rosales on October 8, many of whom were likely just on the Caracas streets and curious to see what was going on. BBC must think this kind of misreporting is the way to maintain a gilt-edged reputation as a reliable news service. The sad truth is that reputation got tarnished many years ago and went to pieces in the shameless reporting the UK-based news organization did in the run-up to the Iraq war when it's entire news operation went into overdrive functioning as a state propaganda service for our government and theirs.

But back to the Morsbach report in which he claims the so-called mass rally "filled the main avenues of the city centre (and) was the biggest opposition rally Venezuela has seen since early 2004." It may have been about the only one of any size seen, and it may have partially filled a single avenue, but as the actual photo on VHeadline.com's site shows, it thinned out fast after moving away from its small core center. Correspondent Morsbach may be nearsighted and failed to notice. Surely on BBC pay he can afford to correct that impediment so he can see more clearly and report more accurately in the future.
(snip/...)

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_stephen__061012...

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Goel Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. Re: BBC reporter lied
Don't make the mistake of believing the British Broadcasting Corporation overseas.

The BBC was compromised as an independent news outlet almost from the outset, when Winston Churchill used the organisation to help break the British General Strike of 1926.

A multitude of distortions and sympathies can be found on the channel in the decades since, from jingoism over British war efforts to a continuing favouritism towards institutions and persons of power in setting the news agenda (unless you're Hugo Chavez).

The domestic television reportage is the worst, followed by the radio and then the 'world service' radio broadcasting, which tends to be the most reliable but still betrays an intrinsic and easily discernable massive UK/US foreign policy bias.

As a UK citizen, I now find the BBC television news entirely unwatchable. In recent weeks, it seems to have gotten even worse (along with the situation in Iraq) - if this is possible.

The BBC claim to report events under conditions of impartiality is laughable - the organisation is a sick joke.

G.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #102
103. Appreciate the background on these imposters. Didn't know this
Edited on Fri Oct-13-06 07:27 AM by Judi Lynn
difference they have with real journalism went back so far, or was so extensive.

I've been assuming that I was just stumbling across bad articles, and assumed they were the exceptions, as I've heard of the company for so long (without knowing anything about it, obviously).

Not good news, but it IS good to get the truth from someone who knows about this firsthand.

Here's hoping there will always be a voice somewhere which will still be publishing some version of the truth about events. It would be too insulting if they could cut off the public from all information, but it seems they are going to keep trying.

On edit:

Welcome to D.U., Goel. :hi:
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