Survey: Less of U.S. secular than thought ( some alarming findings)

[IChing]

WACO, TX, United States (UPI) -- A survey by Baylor University in Waco, Texas, has suggested that 1-in-10 people who choose 'no religion' on a poll also name a place they go to worship.

Researchers said 10 percent of those who chose 'no religion' from a list of 40 choices listed a place of worship in a separate question, leading them to believe the number of secular Americans is lower than previously believed, The Washington Post reported Tuesday.>>>>>snip

The survey also found that 45.6 percent of respondents believe the federal government 'should advocate Christian values' and that number grows to 74.5 percent among believers in an authoritarian version of God, USA Today reported.>>>>>snip

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article_1200630.php/Survey_Less_of_U.S._secular_than_thought

[Avalux]

1. Wouldn't believe anything like this coming out of Baylor.

I'd have to see the sample to even remotely give it credence. Just bullshit to promote a Christian Nation. :eyes:

[zanne]

40. Yeah, I just Googled Baylor.

"Largest Baptist university in the world".... I wonder if that poll turned out exactly the way they wanted it to?

[Javaman]

51. A buddy of mine was a Prof there a few years ago...

They would get on his case about not attending religious services and would put various things in his file regarding as such.

What is interesting about it is: he is an atheist. And they knew this. He was amazed at them hiring him in the first place. I guess at the time they were trying some of that new fangled "tolerance" they heard so much about.

so my friend was so completely mysterified when they came down on him for not attending.

He eventually found a better job at another university in Oregon.

He was glad they left.

I could go on and on about Baylor and the things he told me but let me put it this way. This study, to say the least is very suspect.

Like the saying goes, "if it's hard to believe, check the source."

[Threedifferentones]

52. You're right but

a better saying would be "always check the source." Just because a conclusion is easy for you to digest does not make it accurate.

[Javaman]

54. True.

[nebenaube]

2. artifacts in the poll

Many, many pretend to be christian just so that their parents will get off their backs or so that they can function in their community without discrimination.

[pitohui]

47. or so you can be married and buried

these days if you don't belong to a church don't expect to be able to arrange a coveted church wedding

i could give a crap but many people want to make their parents or grandparents or their children (old people get married/re married too!) happy

[Miss Chybil]

65. I have "no religion" but I have a church to go to just for what you said.

I love ritual, hate religion. I don't think having a place to go for a ritual, because of tradition, or what-have-you means anyone is less secular. The poll is flawed. Imagine that... :)

[KitSileya]

53. Heck, many go to church to have a network

most civilized countries let the state take care of - if you have a misfortune, most have to turn to their religious communities for help. In Europe, you get such help from the government in most cases.

[Odin2005]

77. Yep, many athiests are "in the closet" because of fear of ostracism or...

...punishment. An atheist college student may loose finiacial support from his/her fundy parents. Fundy parents may send an atheist teen to a "bible camp" to "re-educate" him/her. An athiest might loose his/her job if he/she come out.

[ShortnFiery]

3. Take *all* the Corporate M$M tells us "little people" with a grain of salt

Remember who the Corporate Media Serves - Big Business! The study came from Baylor but the MESSAGE is spun by the M$M. Many of them within the Military Industrial Complex. The CEOs in these large Media Conglomerates get richer when US "chattering classes" busy ourselves with Bread and Circuses (Wedge Issues and Theocratic Hype) allowing The Ruling Class to get even more bloated off of the backs of wage slave workers and endless oil wars. :(

[sadiesworld]

34. Divide and Conquer.

When we realize that we have much more in common with our neighbors (regardless of religiosity) than we have with the controlling elites, we'll be three quarters of the way there. The irony is that the apolitical are the most likely to recognize this (that's my experience, anyhow).

[Atman]

4. Isn't Baylor heavily religious already?

I'm not buying this survey. I read it in the paper this morning, and I just don't buy it. For one, it sounds as if they decided that anyone who has ever said they "prayed" for anything is "religious." Now, I am a recovering Catholic, and now consider myself an atheist. But, according to the findings of this survey, I am, in fact, religious, because I have prayed.

Bullshit. Just another way to try to force the notion on us that we MUST be a nation of Christians, or at least, misguided others who just don't quite fully understand the whole "God" thing. Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

[Staph]

9. From the Baylor University website . . .

"Chartered in 1845 by the Republic of Texas and affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, Baylor is the oldest institution of higher learning in continuous operation in the state and the largest Baptist university in the world."

http://www.baylor.edu/about/

I consider myself religious (your basic liberal United Methodist), but I would be very suspicious of a poll on religious affiliation from a university with such a long and proud religious affiliation.

[jwirr]

17. Especially a poll done by Baptists. They are the original

rapture out group. And they do not seem to have a moral basis when it comes to the kind of leaders they elect: *ss, chainy, rummy, etc.

[KamaAina]

28. It's the place where sex is banned...

..because they're afraid it might lead to dancing! :rofl:

I'm here all week. Two shows a night. Try the veal. :-)

[Ilsa]

61. A friend who was Methodist attended BAylor 20 years ago. He said

the professors in his required religion classes were pretty much heretics, no matter what the student body was (rich and fundy). They may have made a sharp turn right, though, as many grads were complaining about the heretical teachings in some of the classes.

[baldguy]

5. How many claim to be of a particular faith, but never go to church?

[ShortnFiery]

7. I tend to go to Mass each week and try to also attend on Holy Days of

Obligation too.

However, I'm not tripping over anyone within my Parish to find a seat in one of the pews ... well, save for Christmas, Easter and New Years. Go figure? ;)

[jwirr]

19. There is also the other side of the coin: How many refuse to

attend the repug churches that they used to go to but are still Christians. You can count my Democratic family in that group. I will not go back as long as they are spouting their political bull.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

39. I attend Mass every week.

And I'm not particularly alarming.

The point is really not whether we are or or not a "Christian" nation. The majority of us are Christian.

The point is: What does that mean?

To me it means only that a majority of us are Christian. Nothing more.

And I believe that a majority of the Christians think the same way I do. It's only the fringe fundamentalists, who though small in number have captured the Republican party, who think it means anything else.

They're wrong.

[endarkenment]

6. "the largest Baptist university "

'nuff said.

[ShortnFiery]

11. Holy Fundy Baptists Batman! :P eom

[Dervill Crow]

8. Ha. My parents would call themselves Christian

because they weren't Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Zoroastrian, or anything else.

When I was a kid, my dad showed me his Army dogtags, and his religion was listed as RC. I asked him what it meant. He told me he said he was Catholic because it was the only thing he could think of and he had to say something.

Hmmmpppph.

[acmejack]

13. I was thinking Dog Tags. No one ever says None.

Probably the same on polls. I still have some dag tags that say I'm a lutheran and I haven't voluntarily been in a lutheran church since way before I got those tags.

[Der Blaue Engel]

31. Religion on dog tags

What is that about? Is it in case of the need for last rights on the battlefield? I'd never heard about this before. Do you know if it's still done?

[acmejack]

38. Yes so the proper religious rites are performed

I would imagine it still is done, but you would have to ask one of the younger vets on that one.

[oneighty]

41. Religion on Dog Tags?

"None" I told the man. He say; "No you are a P".

And so it came to pass I became a 'P'.

180

[BrotherBuzz]

49. 'None' was not an option when I served

Neither was agnostic. I has to settle for 'No Pref' (No Preference) despite my objection. I was a little twisted, and I may have be splitting hairs, but I felt 'No Pref' was inclusive rather then exclusive and I desired total separation from the religious issue back in those days. LOL, I guess I had some real anger issues back in those days.

[dad]

69. I told the guy atheist, and the dogtags came back as No Religious Pref

I still have 'em

[BrotherBuzz]

76. Ha, I guess they accommodated me a little...

They dropped 'Religious' and simply stamped 'No Pref'. I suspect I would have blown my top if, I was an atheist, and would have insisted they stamp a new one saying 'No Religion'.

My dogtags repose it my gewgaw drawer. I've been told that when the drawer becomes full, I die.

[RufusEarl]

10. Well it's Baylor what did they expect?

Why don't they take that same survey at UT, i'll bet they'll get a different result.

[napi21]

12. That is a foolish poll and proves NOTHING!

I'm Catholic, go to Church every Sunday, and hold my faith very dear, BUT I also DETEST shat Shrub is & has done to our Country! I can honestly say I don't think I've
EVER really hated ANYONE in my life, but Shrub managed to change that!

I suspect there really ARE a lot of "religious" believers of many different faiths in America. The Baylor poll seems to be trying to show that so many more Americans are on THEIR side, and that poll proves nothing like that!

[kwassa]

14. There are polls, and there are polls.

George Gallup used to get high numbers of people saying that they attended church often, when asked. Gallup was an active Christian himself.

I read that other polls that asked people about their time use showed a much smaller percentage of people in church on Sunday morning. These polls weren't asking people directly about their religious practices, simply how they spent their daily time.

The gap might be in what people think they ought to say to pollsters, when asked, and what they really do.

[happyslug]

15. USA Today had an expanded version of this survey

Which goes into details as to religious beliefs and Political views. The biggest finding was NOT that more people are religious then they say they are, but that how one views their religion reflects how they view politics. For example the South have a heavier belief in a "Vengeful God" than the rest of the County. The Mid-west has more people who believe in a benevolent and forgiving God, the East goes for a Critical but disengaged version of God, while the West tend to a Distant and disengaged God.
For example the dominate view out West is a God who set the universe up as it is and takes a very remote view of how we do things on this planet. The East is view God as critical of Human events but not engaged in the day to day life of people.

Furthermore, more than where you are from, how you view God sets your Political Views. People who believe in a Vengeful God, tend to want more religion in Government, other believers in God do not. Since more people who believe in a vengeful God live in the South more than the rest of the Country, the South end to want more Religion in Government (Thus it is NOT where you live, but your basic view of God and what he expects of you sets one's political agenda).

One last comment, the final report on the Survey will not be done till NEXT YEAR. Baylor has NOT fully processed the data from the Survey. Thus as more details come out from the Survey, we may get more and more report on how people THINK based on how they view God.

The four types of God are as follows:
Authoritarian and highly involved in life (Dominate in the South);
Benevolent and engaged in the world (Dominate in the Midwest);
Critical but disengaged (Dominate in the East);
Distant and disengaged (Dominate in the West).

Please note when I mean dominate, it is the number one choice for that region BUT IS NOT THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THAT REGION.

The USA article is only in their print edition, it is NOT on their on-line edition.

[jwirr]

23. Thank you. What you are telling us reminded me of Lakeoff's

book "don't think of an elephant!". He talks about how the way you perceive family is an indicator of how you vote. Authoritarian Strict Father headed family role models tend to be repugs. Nurturing Parental model's tend to me Democrat. This would follow what this study is showing. When I read his book I called my sister and said that I finally understood why our family was all Democratic.

[AX10]

29. Thanks

[Realityhack]

56. Thanks n/t

[Lone_Star_Dem]

16. These polls had a listing for "other" when asking where they worship?

I think this may fall into a polling technique that my friend and I both had already noticed.

They ask your religion and even if you answer none further into the poll it asks where you worship and doesn't give you an option that represents that you do not, the closest option to that you don't is "other".

I'm not sure but I have a feeling this and those polls are related.

[Malikshah]

18. OK-- Clearly Grammar and Religiosity do not go hand in hand

Shouldn't it be:

U.S. less secular than thought??

[MrModerate]

30. Unless they're referring to regional differences!

If, f'rinstance, you think of San Francisco as secular (it's more pagan in my opinion, but never mind), they could be saying that there are fewer enclaves of secularism than originally believed.

Anyone found an enclave of secular thought recently?

[DrDan]

20. this is such a sore spot

"Christian Values" - what exactly are those????

Don't kill
Don't steal
Don't lie
Don't cheat

"Christians" have laid a claim to these. Worse yet, they continue that those who are not Christians don't have these values.

How in the world did they come to that conclusion????????????

It is so ridiculous to label these as "Christian".

[daleo]

21. You don't have to have a religion to go to church

Just a spouse (or significant other) that insists you go.

[jwirr]

26. Or a local business that you need contacts for.

[NVMojo]

22. if I chose "no religion" I mean NONE!

[IChing]

24. "God without religion" the book

by Arun Gandhi----yes the grandson

"if we persist in competing to possess the truth instead of working in unity to pursue it, we are going to face untold grief-and worse, violence."







http://www.godwithoutreligion.com/foreword.shtml

[damntexdem]

25. And had my family been surveyed, ...

we would all be listed as having a regular place of worship -- the local Unitarian-Universalist fellowship. But we are all agnostics or atheists.

[LynnTheDem]

27. The American Talebornagain.

So WHY exactly do we want to "defeat Islamofascists"?

Oh yeah, to replace them with "Christofascists".

[warrens]

32. This is all bullshit

Seriously, there is a damn reason half the churches in the U.S. are in financial trouble. It's one of those topics that polls never get right. My entire family hasn't been in a church apart from weddings and funerals in decades, but half of them will check off Methodist if asked.

[teryang]

33. They don't have to pay taxes and they are in trouble.

if i never had to pay taxes, I'd already be retired.

[greccogirl]

44. It must be in a different part of the country from

where I live. I see churches going up everywhere.

[brentspeak]

35. Church membership isn't a good way to judge spiritual beliefs

All of the Founders were members of a church, but only a minority were conventional, devout Christians.

[liberal N proud]

36. I never tell them what religion I am on polls

but if asked I always tell them I go to church.

I figure it is none of their damn business

[depakid]

37. I guess Baylor ignores the GSS data

Which reveals completely different results-

Then again- for many years, Baylor was creationism central- and one of its major charlatans hailed from there.

[0rganism]

42. Believe It!

The amount of denial when these stats are brought up around here is astounding. Take an informal poll of your neighbors and co-workers, chances are you'll be seeing similar results.

The USA is a relatively religious country.

[greccogirl]

43. This isn't surprising to me. In most polls that

I have seen, the overwhelming majority of Americans reply in the affirmative when asked if they believe in a Supreme Being.

[Arugula Latte]

45. Non-rational and Magical Thinking alive and well in the US of A.

Who'd have thunk it?

[pitohui]

46. consider the source

baylor, nuf said

[Seabiscuit]

48. America sucks. If so many 'Murikans' are stuck on KRISTIANITY,

then I for one no longer consider myself a 'Murikan'.

I have no nationalistic affiliations. Period.

I am a free being. And a free thinker.

I will travel to and settle where I will.

Fuck 'Murika'.

Once upon a time it was called "America" and it had a Constitution and it had laws that most people, even the government, respected and obeyed.

No longer.

This is not the country I grew up in and will never again salute its flag.

[GeorgiaDem69]

74. Hit the road then

What laws aren't "respected and obeyed." I'm typically not too defensive about statements like yours but if you don't like it you are welcome to move elsewhere. I imagine you'd be back pretty quickly. There are LOTS of people trying to move to America.

There are a bunch of things that need to be fixed but I'm not sure that you are part of the answer.

[Seabiscuit]

75. Ahhh.. the old "love it or leave it" slogan.

Shades of 1968.

If you're not aware of the massive lawbreaking of the Bush administration during the past 5 years, God help you.

[GeorgiaDem69]

80. Bullshit

Your statement is "I will travel to and settle where I will. Fuck 'Murika'." If you don't like America feel free to leave. Whether Bush is or is not doing anything illegal is irrelevant to the whether America is suddenly no longer worth living in.

Protest Bush and his policies, not "America."

[Seabiscuit]

82. I didn't protest "America". I protested "Murika".

Huge difference.

Apparently such obvious distinctions are too difficult for some to comprehend.

BTW, how do you like Georgia's sodomy law ? Oh, that's right. It doesn't cover the foot in mouth or head up ass diseases.

[fasttense]

50. Read another way, how many people who go to church really

believe what the Religion teaches? I bet they didn't ask that question. If people with no religion go to church, how many with a religion don't believe it? I for one go to church but don't believe it. It's a nice thing to do on Sunday and I like most of the people. But all that BS about miracles and such, I don't buy it. But I still would mark a religion on a questionnaire. Don't put too much faith in the accuracy of a poll from the wackos at Waco.

[Realityhack]

55. I would like to see this study replicated

I too am suspicious of the source. I would like to see if other social scientists get similar results.

[yurbud]

57. I lived in a small town and even party animals and atheists went to church

cuz there was nothing else to do (cheap entertainment and socializing).

[pitohui]

59. plus the free doughnuts

i attended for years just to get the free pastries heh heh

[yurbud]

60. You got DONUTS? I'd go to a Scientology Church for donuts.

Okay, maybe not. But I'd try to sneak in and get them.

[pitohui]

72. we were mere presbyterians

nothing as exciting as scientologists i'm afraid

but yeah lots of lots of free doughnuts :-)

even the kinds w. jelly inside!

[yurbud]

73. I think I got you beat on the "mere" scale--my family was methodist

which I still call mellowest because their creed seemed to be not to offend anyone anytime anywhere by actually claiming to believe anything in particular.

When I put it that way, it sounds like a lot of Democratic campaign consultants are Methodists.

[yurbud]

62. Those are called "communion rings" in the church of homer

[silverweb]

58. Bullshit.

n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

71. Exactly!

[Ilsa]

63. They must have counted anyone who screams, "Oh my God!!!" during

sex as being "religious".

[Bill McBlueState]

64. this is an excellent poll

The sample size was huge -- 1700 -- and there was an exhaustive list of questions. See http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-09-11-religion-survey_x.htm for another good summary article.

What it says is that, yes, a huge majority of Americans are Christian. But more importantly, American Christians have political and religious views that are just as diverse as those of the rest of us. Any attempt by political or religious leaders to say that all Christians should have this or that opinion is b.s.

[anotherdrew]

66. seems to me all they found was the people who don't believe but go anyway

for various reasons

religion: none
church: "my boss's"

[Trajan]

67. Funny ....

I am MORE Secular than I once thought ....

And? ... I approve of ALL christian values that coincide with humanistic values ....

NO brimstone and fire, thanks ..... just plowshares and a fair economic system ...

[bhikkhu]

68. A bit like paying taxes = supporting the republican majority =

supporting the * agenda

[and-justice-for-all]

70. If you are truely ATHEIST, as I am.....

..You do not goto fucking church. That makes no fucking sense "people who choose 'no religion' on a poll also name a place they go to worship." Its more like those people were "NON-DENOMINATIONAL" and not ATHEIST...Thats a bullshit survey by wing-nuts.

[SoyCat]

83. I agree 100%.

[Vidar]

78. How clever--they debunk their own polls.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. I think there are real regional differences that average out

across the country.

I grew up in and currently live in the upper Midwest, but I also spent nine years on the East Coast and nineteen years on the West Coast.

When I was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s, it was the rare person who didn't attend church in Minnesota or Wisconsin. Yet these were both known as progressive states. The two most prominent groups were Lutherans and Catholics. In fact, I was in fifth grade before I met anyone who wasn't one or the other.

Moving East, I found myself in an environment with large numbers of non-Christians for the first time, because the first university I attended was 40% Jewish. At both universities, the dining halls were noticeably under-utilized on Yom Kippur, and the matzoh went fast during Passover, despite the fact that few students attended the on-campus Friday night services. As far as the larger communities were concerned, Ithaca had small outposts of several religions, but none dominated. In New Haven, the Italians, Irish, and Puerto Ricans were mostly Catholic, the African-Americans were mostly Baptist or Pentecostal, and a significant number of the Jews were observant, so that the New Haven Food Co-op found it worth their while to have kosher sections. (This was in the 1970s; things may be different now.)

The West Coast was decidedly secular, and I lived in Oregon, the most secular of the Pacific states. Most of the people who were religious were either fundamentalists or Mormons, with a few of us mainstream types living in obscurity. One of the colleges I taught at was officially affiliated with the liberal wing of the Baptists, but signs of religious activity on campus were few and far between. However, in all three communities where I lived, there were a lot of New Age groups.

Now I'm back in Minneapolis, attending a large and flourishing Episcopal parish. Minneapolis also has two of the largest Lutheran churches in the country, and both are well-attended enough to cause traffic jams in their respective areas. Many churches are struggling, however, and they seem to be the ones that coasted on the social customs of the 1950s and 1960s and didn't figure out that just being there is no longer enough. The fundies are building new churches in exurbia so fast that I suspect they're funded under the table by the Coors Foundation, but they often provide the only sense of community in those far-flung, featureless, cookie cutter exurbs where everyone spends two hours a day in the car.

So I don't think you can generalize about America. If you live on the West Coast, you may literally not know anyone who is religious. If you live in certain parts of the Midwest or South, you may not know anyone who isn't religious.

[heliarc]

81. I'm a Atheist...

and I worship good food... I will drive for miles to get to a restaurant that features my favorite chef. I will kneel at his feet and sing the praises.

[and-justice-for-all]

84. Well, at least you can give physical prove of the Chefs exsistence

[hvn_nbr_2]

85. Figures don't lie but.... And very lame-brained people interpret figures

Why is it a surprise that some people who claim no religion go to some church? I can think of half a dozen reasons other than that they lied on the religion question. They go because everyone in their fundie town would boycott their business if they didn't, but they don't believe it. They go for the social contacts, but sleep through the boring sermon. They go because their kids "ought to be exposed to religion," but they're apostates themselves.... But I guess that researchers of small minds, narrow minds, uncreative minds, or minds made up can't think of any of these reasons.

They don't seem to express any surprise that half the people who go to church don't exhibit any Christian values in their day-to-day lives. After all, who would Jesus torture?

[Ouabache]

86. It is not alarming at all if you have ever been a member for a

long time at one church. You will find that large or small, my experience was in a small mainline denomination, there are 'friends' of the congregation. They genuinely agree with the precepts, and attend services but are not hardcore about pushing it on anyone themselves. They enjoy the fellowship. I never saw anyone like this blatantly or slyly using it for business contacts. What I did see was people in this category who really did not want to be a trustee, elder, officer, or committee member. They would occasionally volunteer labor for a cleaning day, or a painting project, but they did not want 'formal' duties and responsibilities. They were often the most laid-back people around the church. If they got really regularly involved in anything it was the choir, because they liked to sing. Some of them put a fair amount of money in the plate, but really do not want a 'formal' say in much of anything.

Now there is a sly 'member' category very close to this 'friend of the congregation'. It is someone who has served in a lot of formal roles and is now permamently ensconced on the 'nominating committee'. This way THEY never get nominated for election to any formal role ever again. hehheh. They are clever people and have good ideas, they just got burned out and want a permanent break.

The best way to pick a good church in my opinion. Does the minister take the money out of the plate after the service or does an officer that was elected do it? And the officer who takes the money out of the plate should count, and deposit it, but have no authority to write a check. Separate officer for that. Some denominations and congregations do have nice little democracies and checks and balances within them. They will never be a cult or cult like. And much less likely to be fundamental nutjobs too.