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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:42 PM
Original message
Italy offers to lead U.N. force for Lebanon
looks like France is opting out.


BEIRUT (Reuters) - Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi said on Monday his country was ready to lead a U.N. force in south Lebanon, where shooting by Israeli troops at Hizbollah fighters showed the fragility of a week-old truce.

Prodi told reporters in Italy that he had informed U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who he said would make a final decision on the command of the force this weekend.

The Beirut government welcomed Italy's offer of 2,000 troops, the biggest commitment any country has yet made. Israel has already said it would be happy if Italy led the force.

Italy's right-wing opposition warned the deployment could prove a "kamikaze" mission.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060821/ts_nm/mideast_dc_28...
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, great - we get Italy.
Joe
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termo Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. the ceasefire is broken, they should stay home
no point to deploy a peace keeping mission, imo
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Not a lot of difference, is there??
We're talking Italy.

If this was a kickball game, they'd be that last kid you pick for your team.

Joe
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Cool! Doesn't Benito Mussolini have a Grand Daughter still in politics?
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 04:55 PM by ShortnFiery
Yes, Alessandra Mussolini is every bit as bat-shit-crazy right-wing as our USA neo-conservatives.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-763.html

Alessandra Mussolini, a member of a right wing party just welcomed into Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconis coalition, made the derogatory comments on a TV chat show in Italy.

Reuters reported that she praised her ancestral ties to "Il Duce", and felt it was better to be a fascist than a faggot."



How 'bout we put Allessandra Mussolini in charge of the Peace Keeping forces in Southern Lebanon ... OH! don't forget to assign Karen Hughes as her XO (Executive Officer). :puke:

I'm sure everything will turn out Fascist!

Fabulously "Fascist being much better than Fagots" complements of one each, Alessandra Mussolini! :eyes:

Why do I feel like breaking out into a Mel Brooks "show tune"? :P

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shain from kane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. But will they be able to run the trains on time?
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 04:58 PM by shain from kane
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I doubt it ... fascists tend to become over-confident ...
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 05:03 PM by ShortnFiery
and over-extended. They destroy themselves and each other ... the rest of us "mere mortals" just have to stay out of their way. :(

On Edit: Thanks for the reference - comprende, Si :-)
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I don't think Prodi is a fascist. Are you thinking of their previous
leader? Look, no one wants the job because they know it will likely become a bloodbath. Israel has already broken the ceasefire and is gearing up for more.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. It was a poor attempt at levity
I was referring to Allessandra Mussolini, Benito's Grand daughter. :P

And yeah, she's FAR Right Wing politically ... bordering on FASCIST. :hi:
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. which describes Chirac well
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Italy changed sides so much in WWII there heads must still
be swaying -

Yeah, a Mel Brooks show tune sounds right to me.

Joe
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. There's no need for Italian bashing, man
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'm not - just honest.
Would anyone really want Italy on their side??

Joe
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Your lack of understanding Italian politics is nothing shorter than
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 05:35 PM by AlamoDemoc
sturdiness ignorance.


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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Really he (or she) was just being sarcastic.
Pretty funny, in such a sad way.

Thats all.

Joe
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I suppose the gentleman forgot his sarcasm emote...lol
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 05:52 PM by AlamoDemoc
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Exactly, except I am a lady. :-)
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 06:01 PM by ShortnFiery
And yes, forgive me for not IDing with <tongue-in-cheek> or :sarcasm:

I have great respect for Italy but I do know that SOME of the descendants of Mussolini are a little whacked.

I have NO right to judge Italy, because we (USA) have the biggest embarrassment in our Country's history at the helm now, so you're welcome to fire back.

I meant no disrespect to Italy in general ... each Nation has their political embarrassments. :hi:

P.S. I thought when I identified assigning Karen Hughes as her XO, the cat was out of the bag with regard to sarcasm. But I forget, there's so much emotion surrounding many issues. Regrets.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I think it was clear - and I don't know how to do that sarcasicm
symbol either.

Joe
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I think it was pure nonsense on her part as she already omitted...
however I would like the mods remove such vile from the thread.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I explained myself and no, my sarcasm of Mussolini is not VILE
because it was about a SPECIFIC person, not Italy, in general.

Did you click on the link?

I will let my words stand.

I sincerely doubt, given in the context and explanation, that they should be deleted.

However, we'll leave that up to the powers that be.

Really, I mean you, nor the image of Italy no harm. :shrug:
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
27.  I have nothing against you putting down on Mussolini
but I have problem your earlier post lumping up together of all Italians as supporting Mussolini granddaughter...of course she had anything to do with her grandfathers' killings.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Wha? I did no such thing, you are assuming this ...
really ... because I bring up a topic for sarcasm does NOT automatically suggest that All Italians Support Her.

With true respect, Lighten Up, lest you always be upset. There are many personalities that look at events from different angles, including sarcastic. If you take those comments as an affront, you will be miserable most of your time here.

Let it go because I did not mean ANY of what you posted above ... and you should not have assumed I did, if for no other reason this piece was PURE satire. REALLY, Karen Hughes as Mussolini's XO. Please! :rofl:

Pure Satire! Even in serious pieces, when clearly ID'd as such, some people appreciate and it should not be censored.

Heil Satire!

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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I understand were your coming from
I think your earlier thinking is now null and void and I appreciate your
understanding of it. thanks
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Okie Dokie
:shrug: Whatever that will keep us respectful of each other, but I honestly don't understand ( :wtf:).

Never Mind. :hi:
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Oh no...
You were doing so well...

Your just too nice...

Meow
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Thank you
I had no idea you cared MrPrax.

And yes, thanks for noticing - I do try "my level best" to be basically civil toward others.

Maybe it's because I'm a dog person that I don't fully appreciate your message.

Woof.

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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. We got the sarcasim. Mostly.
Joe
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shain from kane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Previously occupied by the Romans. What's next, Ethiopia? n/t
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Very funny.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. good luck Italy, you'll need it
besides the fact that Italy isn't going to "occupy" South Lebanon, this is mostly a posture. Historically Italy has a tendency to "jump" on offers but it's going to be very tough for them even if they could implement it rapidly, which most European military observers doubt.

Besides the mandate is changing. Now the US wants us to "disarm the Hizbollah" :

see my post here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

my guess is that either Europe goes in WITHOUT UN mandate like they did in Bosnia, or the force remains symbolic, which allows Israel to attack again (Olmert talked about a "second round"), which is of course exactly what the PNAC wants...

and this time "the decider" has been put aside. It took exactly one hour, following the press releases.

and please skip the "Mussolini" comparisons, Italy is a mature democracy despite the Berlusconi episode.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. Geez. I say give them a try. Seems the UN guidelines for deployment
are in flux, France has had second thoughts, the ceasefire is no ceasefire, we can't and shouldn't do it, the UN is intent to provide some sort of buffer force allied with the Lebanese army and the world agrees a real time break in the killing has to happen.

If Italy's an option, I think the UN needs to take a look at them, whether it gets to the ground or no.

Even though the goals of all this seem to get muddier and muddier, some time and distance between bullets, bombs and bodies would be a good thing.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. thank you Pinto
sometimes I wonder on what kind of forum I am...
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Hopefully a realistic forum.
If Italy is the best option - we are probably in a world of s*it.

Joe
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. The Italians have been /are excellent in Kosovo
and survived Iraq (32 casualties). Probably the "same" guys are to be sent. Ask Wesley Clark what he thinks about the Italians, he probably wouldn't share your opinion.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Maybe not.
And surely no one will ever accuse me of agreeing with them 100% of the time.

Joe
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. oh no, I applaud Italy for stepping up
a difficult task for sure.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You know you are right -
But boy I sure wouldn't want to count on them to save me either.

Joe
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. They can do no worse that the current French lead UNIFIL has done
And fresh leadership from the EU side is well overdue.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
36. at least they have 'peacekeepers' as a name vs 'liberators/occupiers"
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Palladin Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
37. Whoever goes needs to be ready and able to fight
the Israelis as well as Hezbollah. They need plenty of SAMs and Stingers (or equivalent), and it needs to be some nation with its own fighter aircraft to keep the IAF out of Lebanese airspace. Very few qualify. The Italians have the Giuseppe Garibaldi with 16 Harrier -type jump jets. The French have the Charles de Gaulle, with 40 Rafale attack fighters, which could hold their own against the IAF F-16s. There definitely needs to be a "robust" mechanism not only for managing Hezbollah, but for punishing Israel for any further aggression.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Would you really want Italy (or France) on your wing here??
And I sure don't think the French could hold their own against the Israeli air force in any event.

One thing for sure about Israel - they have a hell of an air force - their only match is American.

Joe
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Palladin Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I agree.
The only match for the IAF are our own carrier-based F-18 Hornets and the USAF F-15s, F-16s, and F-22s. It won't happen until this country itself breaks up. into the factions who want to keep on coddling and enabling Israel, and those who would like to kick its bloody arrogant ass - including more than you would believe in the present US military. The behavior of Israel, the complicity of this addled President, and of this craven Congress in this summer's bloody fiasco have brought that day of imperial disintegration closer.
I suppose we should be grateful....

There are other ways of restraining Israel however, if a President had the courage and will to use them. Eisenhower forced the Israelis to back off in the Suez Crisis of 1956 by threatening to freeze their assets. Reagan made a simple phone call to Begin in 1982, telling him he had gone too far in invading Beirut.
But....we have a deluded, ignorant fool as "President" these days. Very dangerous for all of us. Armies and nations come apart when led by fools. Ours will be no different.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. I am not trying to fool myself about right and wrong -
I am just saying Israel has the second best air force to us - they really do.

They are very good. Hell, they were trained by us, they should be.

You comments Palladin are right on. What is going to happen now was dictated by events some months ago - they are going to happen.

Joe
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You made me think -
All those years later, after the war in Europe - I dated girls whose fathers served in the Lutwaffe, you know - came to the US. And I think - My dad got along with them just fine. These guys killed some of his friends and tried their best to kill him back then - but after all those years there was a mutual respect. That respect didn't exist with RAF pilots children, but it did with those german kid's parents. It was always hard for me to understand.

It was a respect for the craft - the technical abilities of some of those "Nazi" pilots.

I only saw the big boobs of the girls I dated at the time, you know??

I guess I'm a little older now.

Joe
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Capt_Nemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. sorry, but you're underestimating the french air force
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 05:31 AM by Capt_Nemo
The Rafale has recently kicked both F-15 and F-16 butt in exercises with the USAF, and is still
not equiped with what will be its definitive long range air-to-air weapon, the
ramjet powered Meteor missile. And the reason why the IAF can still be considered as roughly
matching the Arme de l'Air is because the ratio between F-15 and F-16 numbers is for now
higher than the Rafale/Mirage 2000-5 ratio in the french air force... for now..
Then there are the AWACS: the E-3F Sentry and the E-2F Hawkeye
And if the french wanted they could wipe out IAF air bases in a first strike, using their
stealthy cruise missiles SCALP (A.K.A. Storm Shadow) and APACHE (specialized in the
destruction of runways).
The reason why the UN won't clear up the confusion about the mandate is because the US is
trying to shield Israel from geting exposed to a situation where a robust mandate would
give the french and their allies a license to bomb anyone who targets the peacekeepers
to kingdom come. For this reason the US and the french are at odds about the mandate,
and the french are bloody well right in refusing to commit troops in these conditions!
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