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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:27 PM
Original message
Remove Hezbollah from terror list: MPs (Canada)
Remove Hezbollah from terror list: MPs

Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:14:13 EDT

The Lebanese-based militant group Hezbollah should be removed from Canada's list of banned terrorist organizations, two Canadian MPs say. Boris Wrzesnewskyj and Peggy Nash made the comments Sunday during a fact-finding mission to southern Lebanon as Israeli troops continue to withdraw from the region following 34 days of conflict.

...

Wrzesnewskyj, a Liberal MP from Toronto, says the visit has shown him how integrated Hezbollah is into Lebanese society. In the interest of peace, he said Canada should reconsider its 2002 decision to place the group on its list of banned terrorist groups.

...

Wrzesnewskyj's comments were echoed by Nash, a New Democratic Party MP who is also from Toronto. She said many Lebanese regard Hezbollah as resistance fighters. "It's just not helpful to label them a terrorist organization," said Nash.

...

Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro withdrew from the fact-finding mission at the last minute, citing security concerns.

...

cbc.ca
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. So, randomly launching thousands of missiles into populated areas is fine?
What bullshit.
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No worse than strategically striking into populated areas. n/t
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. nt
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 01:41 PM by Charlie Brown
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. oh, now, that was cute

I refer to this post of yours, and you delete it.

I'll have to remember to delay my responses ...

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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Well, I wasn't sure if the previous post referred to Israel or Hezbollah
and I didn't want to unfairly criticize another poster. Nothing to do with you.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. LOL!!!...One-sided views are lethal. Brick walls don't listen.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. brick walls don't listen

But amazingly enough, some people aren't so stupid as to think they can talk about others behind their backs on an internet board.

Of course, I don't imagine you are either.

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Bretttido Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Damn it, I thought we were done with this Hezbollah / Israel Bullshit
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Ron Mexico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
50. Surely you didn't think that a
UN-brokered cease fire would actually put this one to rest?
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MikeyJones Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
51. You're never going to be finished with the Arab/Israeli issue......
until one side wins and the other loses. Both sides have their crimes to answer for but I think legitimizing Hizbollah is a bad avenue to go down.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. That won't even do it
That region of the world has been a hotzone more or less continuously since people could write about it, with the only real break being while the Ottomans were sitting on that region until the fall of the Empire.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Aimed at military targets located in those populated areas.
An explanation though not an excuse for targeting those areas. Just as Israel's targeting of populated areas and infrastructure has a weaker explanation, and no excuse at all, in Hezbollah's presence in some such areas. Hezbollah should not be on a list of terrorist organizations unless the Israeli government is as well. I could support that approach. Short of that, take Hezbollah off such lists!

The real problem is that the dynamics supported by the Bushistas makes heroes of the terrorists: Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Israeli government. The peacemakers, and the large proportions of populations who simply want to live in peace, are shouted down, and often coerced.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. I don't know that that can be done.
I don't think we could say Israel is a terrorist organization. The Israeli government/military maybe, but even then it's a stretch - not because Israel doesn't use terrorism, it quite clearly does (as evidenced by the IDF's announced plans to target civilian areas to turn innocent Lebanese against Hezbollah, which they might not have even supported in the first place), but because it's a state.

However, Hezbollah does hold some seats in the Lebanese government, so maybe you can't really call them a terrorist group either, even though they also target civilians. Complicated.

Perhaps the solution is to amend international law so that the deliberate targeting of civilians and their infrastructure is terrorism, no matter who does it?

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FlavaKreemSnak Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
67. You would have to make an exception for America and Israel

In fact, I think that is the reason that they haven't made any kind of law like that. Well there are two reasons, one is that we don't want to be in anything that would actually punish countries, if you have read about that International Criminal Court thing they wanted to have, but we said that we wouldn't be in it because being accountable for war crimes is against our foreign policy, and then we went around and made a bunch of other countries agree not to even sign anything that said we had committed any or ought to be in it or something, some of them we gave money to and some of them I think we sort of told them that if they would sign it then we wouldn't attack them, kind of like when we told the Taliban they could have a carpet of gold or a carpet of lead.

Anyway, the other reason that there can't be a law like that is because no matter what it is, if America or Israel does it, it isn't considered terrorism, and no matter what it is, if it is fighting back against us or against Israel, that is considered terrorism.

But I think some of them are kind of embarrassed to just say well we have to have that in the law, and also it would cost a lot of money to get some of the countries to sign it if it said it like that. So they have to figure out a way to make sure that there are exceptions for us and Israel before they can have a law like that.
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
56. Fine, add Israel to that list, then.
And join South Africa when history is done with it.
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Constitution Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
69. The Israeli Government murders children. They're terrorist.
Hezbollah was the only defense the Lebanese people had. The Lebanese army should have fought the Israeli military that was murdering kids by the hundreds.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization and must be treated as such.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. The US are terrorists as well with premptive imperialism.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hezbollah was not originally on the list
It was placed on the list only after intense pressure was brought to bear on the then Liberal government.

From the article linked:

In 2002, then prime minister Jean Chrtien's government placed Hezbollah on its list of banned terrorist entities following weeks of intense lobbying by the Canadian Alliance party and Jewish groups. The ban included Hezbollah's military and social wings.

{The Canadian Alliance was the previous incarnation of the present Conservative Party, currently the government.}

Under that designation, it is illegal for people in Canada to work with or donate money to Hezbollah. Canadian authorities can seize any assets linked to the organization.

Interim Liberal Leader Bill Graham was foreign affairs minister when Hezbollah was added to the Canadian list. He had initially argued that Hezbollah's social arm was a legitimate charity and functioned independently of the military wing.

Graham later reversed his position after media reports quoted Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah urging Palestinians to expand suicide bombings worldwide.
Which, of course, was completely unrelated to the question of whether funds donated in Canada were going to a terrorist organization.

http://www.canlii.org/ca/as/2001/c41/whole.html

Part 6 enacts the Charities Registration (Security Information) Act, and amends the Income Tax Act, in order to prevent those who support terrorist or related activities from enjoying the tax privileges granted to registered charities.

CERTIFICATE BASED ON INTELLIGENCE

Signature by Ministers

4. (1) The Minister and the Minister of National Revenue may sign a certificate stating that it is their opinion, based on security or criminal intelligence reports, that there are reasonable grounds to believe

(a) that an applicant or registered charity has made, makes or will make available any resources, directly or indirectly, to an entity that is a listed entity as defined in subsection 83.01(1) of the Criminal Code;

(b) that an applicant or registered charity made available any resources, directly or indirectly, to an entity as defined in subsection 83.01(1) of the Criminal Code and the entity was at that time, and continues to be, engaged in terrorist activities as defined in that subsection or activities in support of them; or

(c) that an applicant or registered charity makes or will make available any resources, directly or indirectly, to an entity as defined in subsection 83.01(1) of the Criminal Code and the entity engages or will engage in terrorist activities as defined in that subsection or activities in support of them.

PART II.1: TERRORISM

List of Entities

83.05 (1) The Governor in Council may, by regulation, establish a list on which the Governor in Council may place any entity if, on the recommendation of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the Governor in Council is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to believe that

(a) the entity has knowingly carried out, attempted to carry out, participated in or facilitated a terrorist activity; or

(b) the entity is knowingly acting on behalf of, at the direction of or in association with an entity referred to in paragraph (a)
.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. "media reports"
You forgot the part that the media reports were a complete fabrication done precisely to influence the vote in the Canadian Parliament.

Moreover, Peggy Nash's argument which was the saem argument held by many during the Parliamentary review, was that ironically since Canada was actively involved in the negotiations between the IRA/Shin Fein and the various governments...many hold that the IRA are terrorists (esp. in a commomwealth country like Canada)...peacekeeping and peacemaking often involved talking and dealing with folks you don't like...

But that shouldn't stop the government or any government from pursuing their OWN national interests over the objections of an ultra-minority of people who wish Canada's policy was the same as one faction's policy in Israel; Likud.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I did

You forgot the part that the media reports were a complete fabrication done precisely to influence the vote in the Canadian Parliament.

I got wrapped up in how the media reports, even if true, did not bring Hezbollah within the relevant definition.

;)

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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. heh...
Yes...I look forward to more stellar journalism from Paul Martin on this deviation in the 'settled logic'.

Until the Washington Times steps back into the fray, I will have to console myself with NP's valiant efforts to combat the terrorists and the anti-semites who love them...

:eyes:
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. As long as Hezbollah keeps lobbing missiles at civilians
they're terrorists.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. gee, I read your post 7

and I thought you were pointing out the massive crimes against humanity recently committed by Israel ...

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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. all crimes against civilians are pretty heinous
and I refuse to give anyone a free pass. Israel's government has a lot to answer for, and so does Hezbollah.
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LivingInTheBubble Donating Member (360 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Somehow though the israeli govt isnt on the terrorist list. nt
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Do you think Israel's government should be considered terrorist?
Would that solve the problems in the Mid-East and encourage peace?
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Actually, yes it would.
Because Israel would have to change its act if it lost support from the U.S. and others. It might stop undertaking terrorist acts. Alternatively, removing Hezbollah from the lists could encourage negotiations with Hezbollah. In fact, the best solution would be to let terrorist lists reflect reality (include both Hezbollah and the Israeli government) but negotiate with both.

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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. you think we should "negotiate" with both?
Hizbollah seems like a bunch of fanatical thugs to me, and I don't see how it's possible to "negotiate" with people like that. At best you can hold them at bay by using a limited amount of force. I don't support Israel's war, but placing Hezbollah on some king of moral pedestal certainly does not seem like an option for ending violence in the Mid-East. Indeed, what you are calling for seems to be an endorsement of Hezbollah's platform, which I believe includes the destruction of Israel. That certainly has no place in a discussion of peace, and I'm more than a little appalled that it would be given consideration at a progressive message board.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
52. You do realize
that unless you argue that the U.S. should be listed as a terrorist regime, your argument that Israel should be so listed, is a hollow one, don't you? Hey, how about the government of the Sudan? Aren't they even worse than the U.S. or Israel? After all the gov't of Sudan is responsible for 200,000 civilian deaths. Impractical.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. now there's an interesting question
Do you think Israel's government should be considered terrorist?
Would that solve the problems in the Mid-East and encourage peace?


Perhaps now you can explain how putting Hezbollah on the terrorist organization list in Canada did or will solve the problems in the Middle East and encourage peace.

As MrPrax said:

peacekeeping and peacemaking often involved talking and dealing with folks you don't like




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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It might discourage countries from supporting Hezbollah
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 03:05 PM by Charlie Brown
and encourage a return of power in Lebanon from fanatics back to the people. And it would certainly be beneficial to Israeli civilians in harm's way, or are they not entitled to the same protections as everyone else? I don't see that treating them as a legitimate organization will have anything but a negative effect, considering their positions.

Why is Hezbollah entitled to the benefit of the doubt? They certainly have not done their part to benefit peace in the region. Are you aware of their positions?

"peacekeeping and peacemaking often involved talking and dealing with folks you don't like"

In this case, it involves Israel making peace with people who want to destroy them.
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laundry_queen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. This works both ways.
In this case, it involves Israel Hezbollah making peace with people who want to destroy them.

Either way the ONLY way to peace is through negotiations. Blowing each other away 'in the name of the Lord' does nothing but perpetuate more war. Labelling certain organizations as 'terrorist' organizations and thus refusing to talk with them does NOTHING to advance peace.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. any road that props Hezbollah up would certainly NOT help Israelis
I don't see that Israelis gain anything at all from negotiating with people who advance their destruction.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. well there ya have it

I don't see that Israelis gain anything at all from negotiating with people who advance their destruction.

And I guess the question would then be: who cares?

I suppose that if someone wanted Israel to gain something, s/he might. Others might think that Israel has really got quite enough already.

So if the carrot isn't useful to get them to the table to negotiate an end to their own evil-doing, some might suggest a stick.

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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. "who cares?"
I care about people being safe from death and destruction, whether they're Israeli or Lebanese. Hezbollah is detrimental to that goal.

You do not seem to care much about Israelis or about Israel's continued existence.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. yeah

I care about people being safe from death and destruction, whether they're Israeli or Lebanese.

And I care about little puppies and kitties getting good homes. No more to do with what you said than that was.

What you said was:

I don't see that Israelis gain anything at all from negotiating with people who advance their destruction.

Of course, that was meaningless anyhow. What, does one negotiate only with people with whom one is in blissful agreement on all points? What might one be negotiating in such a case?

If the Israelis want to gain greater security, dandy. Best negotiate, I'd say.

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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. peace, friend
I care about puppies and kitties getting good homes, too.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. fascinating
The question was:

Perhaps now you can explain how putting Hezbollah on the terrorist organization list in Canada did or will solve the problems in the Middle East and encourage peace.

And your answer is:

It might discourage countries from supporting Hezbollah and encourage a return of power in Lebanon from fanatics back to the people. And it would certainly be beneficial to Israeli civilians in harm's way, or are they not entitled to the same protections as everyone else?

Damn, the Canadian Minister of Justice, or whichever one it is, is a powerful person, eh?

Why is Hezbollah entitled to the benefit of the doubt?

I give up: what doubt? About what?

They certainly have not done their part to benefit peace in the region. Are you aware of their positions?

Yeah, actually. And as a matter of fact, I, unlike anyone else here and virtually every one else in the world, have actually read the submission they made to the govt of Canada opposing the designation in question.

Did you have any particular positions in mind? How 'bout the one that kinda goes "Lebanon for the Lebanese", that being how their positions are pretty much summed up?

In this case, it involves Israel making peace with people who want to destroy them.

Yeah, it's a hard life. Imagine having to actually talk to the people whose lives you have made a living hell for over half a century ...



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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. okay, you have a soft spot for Hezbollah. Hurrah for you
People who kill civilians are thugs to me, and I can't imagine this same lenience being extended to thugs who take out civilians in other parts of the world.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. yeah yeah yeah

When lost for words, characterize the speaker rather than addressing the speech ...

So's yer old man. Yer mother wears army boots. Nyah nyah.

I can't imagine this same lenience being extended to thugs who take out civilians in other parts of the world.

Ha! Joke's on me again. I thought you were talking about the horrific crimes against humanity perpetrated by Israel on an ongoing basis, and the unending refusal of the international community to do a damned thing about it ...


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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. See post 37 above.
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 03:45 PM by Zhade
IMHO, labeling groups as terrorists is not helpful. Rather, terrorist actions - be they by nongovernmental militias like Hezbollah or states like Israel - need to be clearly referred to as terrorism, and (hopefully, universally) condemned as utterly unacceptable.

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loveandlight Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. absolutely...
I truly agree with what you have stated. Terrorism is a set of actions that varies organizations and countries use to get what they want. State actions are very rarely referred to as terrorist, even though that is exactly what they are. So Israel and the U.S. constantly get a pass when their actions are frequently the same as the "terrorists" they so fervently oppose. The bombing and killing of innocent people should not be accepted no matter who does it, state sponsored or militias such as Hezzbolah. Thank you for such a clarifying statement.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Thank you for finding it helpful!
NT!

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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
68. Crimes against soldiers are pretty heinous, too
We all wear the same skin under the uniform.

Charlie Brown, you've got some excellent posts in this thread, btw. :-)

Peace.
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Constitution Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #6
70. So, it's okay for the Israeli military to intentionally kill kids
They are the real terrorists.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. no it is not
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 01:47 AM by Charlie Brown
Hezbollah and the Israeli government have both committed acts of grave violence and neither have a moral high ground.

If you're a fan of Hezbollah, and take any kind of satisfaction at the suffering of civilians in Israel, then I've never been more glad to disagree.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. The "conservative" chickens out again. (nt)
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. perception is everything. I think this would be a move towards
honest negotiations for both sides. Hezbollah is a reality in that region and blindly adopting the Israeli opinion does nothing for further peace in the region. That's one country's self-serving opinion and nothing more.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. What a chicken
"Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro withdrew from the fact-finding mission at the last minute, citing security concerns."

More likely, he didn't want to risk a close up look at reality interfering with his ideological viewpoint.
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CollegeDUer Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
25. They're one side in a multisided military conflict
Simplifying the whole thing down to them being a "terrorist group" is just ignorant, to me.
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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
28. It's not helpful
To blur the lines on the definition of terrorism just because the terrorists have been able to impose themselves on a part of the country.

If Hezbollah strictly targeted military installations, they'd have a better chance at earning a "resistance fighters" label. As long as they target civilians and use civilians as human shields, they're terrorists and all the "social services" they provide don't make up for the deaths they cause. The social services are used to gain the trust of the Lebanese people so they can hide in their communities while they carry out attacks.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I'd say hijacking a plane qualifies
TWA Flight 847 was hijacked en route from Athens to Rome and forced to land in Beirut, Lebanon, where the hijackers held the plane for 17 days. They demanded the release of the Kuwait 17 as well as the release of 700 fellow Shiite Muslim prisoners held in Israeli prisons and in prisons in southern Lebanon run by the Israeli-backed South Lebanon Army. When these demands weren't met, hostage Robert Dean Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was shot and his body dumped on the airport tarmac. U.S. sources implicated Hezbollah.

In what was widely perceived as an implicit, never explicit, quid pro quo, the hostages started being released by the hijackers, followed some days after by Israel starting to free some of its hundreds of Shiite prisoners. At the time, U.S. officials denied there was a deal and said Israel had already committed to releasing the prisoners.

Imad Mughniyah, a senior officer with Hezbollah, was secretly indicted for the TWA hijacking in 1987, along with three others. One of those indicted, Mohammed Ali Hamadei, was arrested in Frankfurt, Germany. In 1989 he was convicted in a German court and sentenced to life in prison. Sixteen years later, Imad Mughniyah is still at large. (Editor's Note: See the FBI's list of the "Most Wanted Terrorists," released Oct. 10, 2001.)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/et...
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. my goodness, it's an expert come to visit!

The social services are used to gain the trust of the Lebanese people so they can hide in their communities while they carry out attacks.

I'll bet you read that somewhere reliable.

Or hell, maybe you know some actual Lebanese people, or have done some independent research into the nature of political parties in Lebanon (and other parts of the world, for that matter). Ya never know, eh?

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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Why the animosity?
Is it something personal?

Hezbollah's goal is creating an Islamic state in Lebanon. They do this in a variety of ways and ONE way is to gain the trust of the local population. They're not strewing flowers and candy among the local populations out of the goodness of their hearts.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. animosity??

Truly, just amazement at your vast knowledge of the situation.

Still don't know where you're getting it, but whatever.

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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Welcome to the Canadian Left
Animosity is the usual treatment for anyone here who believes that Israel has the right to exist and protect itself and that terrorists actually do exist.

By American standards I'm considered a liberal, in Canada, some of the more rabid leftists call me a conservative or neocon. This is because of my support our mission in Afghanistan (yes, the Taliban aren't really such nice people and we should help Afghanistan) or my support of the nation of Israel, which is more democratic and liberal than all of its neighbours.

Many Canadian socialists are generally tolerant of everything, even people and cultures that are not tolerant of people like them. Christian fundamentalists are evil while Muslim fundamentalists are innocent victims of western aggression. Go figure.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. I suspect

that you weren't intending to address me.

Many Canadian socialists are generally tolerant of everything, even people and cultures that are not tolerant of people like them. Christian fundamentalists are evil while Muslim fundamentalists are innocent victims of western aggression. Go figure.

I would, if you'd given me anything to work with.

Straw folk are just so cute, aren't they?



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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
73. Speak for Yourself
Amnesty Accuses Israel of Committing War Crimes
Amnesty International has accused Israel of committing war crimes by deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure in Lebanon. The human rights group criticized Israel for destroying homes, bridges, roads, supermarkets, water treatment plants and fuel tanks.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/23/141...

If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then...

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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. Animosity
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 05:54 PM by Taoschick
Defined as: a feeling of ill will arousing active hostility.

Okay?

My knowledge, isn't from a book, or a magazine, or the television, or a website. It comes from living in the ME for 6 years.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. hmm

My knowledge, isn't from a book, or a magazine, or the television, or a website. It comes from living in the ME for 6 years.

(a) It sure took you a while to get around to saying it.

(b) Any particular part of the Middle East?

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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Hmmmm
Yourself.

All I've seen from you is criticism of the opinions of others.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Awww
All I've seen from you is criticism of the opinions of others.

I'm cut to the quick that you would have such a low opinion of me.

If a tree falls in the forest and you are not there to hear it, has it died in vain?

At least you don't seem to have seen me spouting the talking points of, oh, shall we say, well, er, maybe we should leave it unsaid but, I'm sure, understood.

Anyhow, what I'm not seeing from you is an answer to a question. But that's okay, I found it myself.

Huh. Kinda like if you wanted to find something I'd said, instead of making cluelessly bizarre statements about what I say, you could do that too. Or maybe you have, and you made 'em anyway ...

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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. If personal attacks
Are your only response, perhaps you'd like to just ignore all my posts. Okay?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. If you don't wish to respond to a post

why you clicking on that reply link?

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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
46. "It's just not helpful to label them a terrorist organization"
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Canadian_moderate Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. No words are needed
Your picture speaks volumes. Good response!
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
58. Say "Boris Wrzesnewskyj..."
...three times, fast.
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
59. Doesn't Hezbollah hold positions in Lebanon's government? n/t
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
61. Oh-Oh! Boy, is PNAC gonna be pissed!
This is gonna get good!
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
65. MP denies he wants Hezbollah off terror list
OTTAWA Liberal MP Borys Wrzesnewskyj has denied reports he said Hezbollah should be taken off Canada's terrorist list.

The politician, from the Toronto riding of Etobicoke Centre, is one of three opposition MPs touring the southern region of Lebanon on a fact-finding mission.

The group has come under fire for comments suggesting that Canada should be more open to talking with Hezbollah. Wrzesnewskyj was quoted in some newspaper reports Monday as saying the group should be removed from Ottawa's official list of terrorist organizations.

Wrzesnewskyj said Monday he favours changing Canada's laws that forbid any contact with known terrorist organizations. He said the law undermines efforts to seek lasting peace between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas after a brutal 33-day war.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename...

And the link given in the OP now has ...

Lebanon PM chastises Ottawa on conflict
Last Updated Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:33:56 EDT
CBC News

Lebanon's prime minister criticized Canada's response to the conflict in the Middle East on Monday, as Canadian opposition MPs touring the region suggested Ottawa should rethink the way it deals with the militant group Hezbollah.

Liberal MP Boris Wrzesnewskyj, New Democrat MP Peggy Nash and Bloc Qubcois MP Maria Mourani are on a fact-finding mission to southern Lebanon as Israeli troops continue to withdraw from the region following 34 days of conflict.


Wrzesnewskyj, who represents a Toronto riding, said the visit has shown him how integrated Hezbollah is into Lebanese society. In the interest of peace, he said Canada should reconsider how it deals with groups on its list of banned organizations, which includes Hezbollah.

In a phone interview with CBC News on Sunday night, Wrzesnewskyj stressed that he considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization, but said he is concerned that Ottawa's list of terror groups doesn't differentiate between the militant and political wings of the party.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/08/21/hezbo...
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bumbaklaat Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
66. hmmm
wonder if there is any correlation here:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/21/srilanka.terror/index....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"The men also are accused of plotting to bribe U.S. State Department officials into removing the Tamil Tiger group from a list of terrorist organizations"

is there some sort of "get-off the terra list" lobbying firm out there??
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FormerOstrich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
72. I typically say nothing on the Israel threads..
While it is embarrassing to have been fairly oblivious to the world around you for the number of years that I was, I do have the advantage of seeing things in a different perspective.

Since I am not familiar with much of the history I tend to have to look at things in the here and now. Since I started realizing (or forced to admit) there was something beyond my career I have been nearly obsessed with making up for lost time. But as I learn the past, I have to weigh heavily on what I see as the end results (or bottom line as it were).

Every time I look at Israel and Palestine or Israel and Lebanon the statistics seem to be the same (not so coincidently I believe it is easier to find Israel fatality numbers than the other half but for this example I am quoting numbers from the excerpts below.

Israel had 96 fatalities with 56 of them soldiers (nearly 60%). Lebanon estimates 960 and Israel says 550 were fighters (nearly 60%). During the conflict it was reported to be more like 10% fighters. Either way, I don't see how you can say one side or the other was hiding behind civilians/targeting civilians/etc etc etc.

I don't believe designating any group as "terrorists" is helpful and most likely detrimental. I think to do so is just an excuse to avoid solving the problems. * is the worse about this. Instead of recognizing that the Palestine's, Iraqi insurgents, and Hezbollah all have different issues, political standing, religious implications, and goals, he paints them all as "terrorists". It is simple minded name calling which does nothing toward finding solutions. Yes, I believe there are "terrorists" in the world, but they are few and far between. I think there are many groups that use terrorist tactics for various reasons.


An official Israeli count released early Thursday reported 96 citizens killed in the monthlong war, 56 of them soldiers. Lebanese sources estimate about 10 times as many fatalities, many from Israeli airstrikes on civilian buildings that Israel argues Hezbollah fighters use as cover. Israel claims to have killed upwards of 550 Hezbollah fighters.

The Record (Bergen County, NJ); 8/13/2006; CAROL ROSENBERG and LEILA FADEL, MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS


Of the 39 Israeli civilians who have died, 15 were Arabs, a disproportionate number for a minority that is one-fifth of the Israeli population.

Arabs caught in the middle
Chicago Tribune (Chicago, IL); 8/9/2006


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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. I appreciate your thoughtful post.
I agree. Terrorist has become a military/political buzzword.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-23-06 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
74. Terrorist is a word that has been overused,
and loosely, especially by Geo.W.Bush. It has been used very successfully as a poltical tool. It has been used as a convenient label by those who have something to gain by it's usage. I imagine terror can be the result of waiting for the next bomb to fall or a thump in the night.
I recall the beginnings of the Republican push to taint and label the word liberal as something close to Commie sicko, Pinko, and worse. Thank heaven I believe it has come back to it's original meaning. Now if the word conservative was used as the correct definition intended.......
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