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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:57 PM
Original message
British kit found in Hezbollah bunkers
AN URGENT investigation was launched last night after Israel accused Britain of indirectly supplying Hezbollah terrorists with military night-vision equipment that helped them to target Israeli soldiers in Lebanon.

The equipment was found by Israeli troops in Hezbollah command bunkers in southern Lebanon. Each set was stamped “made in Britain”.

The Israelis made representations to the Foreign Office after it was revealed that Britain had sold 250 night-vision systems to Iran in 2003 for use against drug smugglers.

Foreign Office officials said early indications seemed to suggest that the night-vision equipment found by the Israelis was not part of the batch sold in 2003 to Iran. However, thorough checks were being made to compare serial numbers on the equipment found in the Hezbollah bunkers with those on the ones exported legitimately to Iran.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2321555,00.ht...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is such horseshit.
Night vision equipment is freely available.

http://www.nightvisionmall.com/
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Absolutely, if you have the money to buy it.
So how did Hezbullah earn that cash? Babysitting?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What the fuck does how they "earned" the money have to do with it?
The OP is about how they are British.
I'm pointing out that doesn't mean shit, since there is nothing secret or restricted about sales of these items.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. But the sale doesn't go thru without money, does it?
So where did the money come from? If Iran, then why wouldn't they simply provide the already acquired necessary equipment rather than handing them cash which might get fribbled away?

Why, btw, is the question of Hezbullah's income so terribly upsetting to you? Do they not hold down well-paid day jobs?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It's not "upsetting", I don't give a shit.
The money comes from Iran, everybody knows it. It's the implication that it's "British kit" that annoys me, it's horseshit.
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
44. The neocons want free markets...
Edited on Tue Aug-22-06 04:45 AM by heliarc
That aren't entirely free... They want to develop more nuclear weapons without acknowledging anyone else's right to do the same. They think the Israelis can bomb Lebanon start a ground war using Night vision goggles, but no one else should have the same technology.

I think its horseshit too. The trade of nuclear parts in the A.Q. Khan story is classic too. There's this gross double standard in this game that says companies trafficking in this high tech/military stuff should make as much money as they can, but they should also care about homeland security. Why??? When companies don't have national identities anymore what does it matter? Enron has all its assets stuck in India and when those investments are caving in they go right back and screw California by rolling the blackouts around to hype the cost of energy.

It's a hard rain's gonna fall.

And I'm not even saying companies should have national identities. I think the crisis is getting all too real, and it just means that the proliferation of arms and the division of the labor it requires to make the most intricate of them both contribute to a market that the US simply can't control. Nor do US interests really display any concern for control. I mean the Bush family is knee deep in Carlyle interests which feature Munitions companies in Europe, and Offshore high tech accounts everywhere else. Its no wonder they don't care that a civil war is brewing. Sell more arms. That seems a little more like their motivation to me.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
32. They don't get $8 billion in non-refundable U.S. aid, so we know not there
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Does it matter?
Are they so expensive, you have to ask how they can afford it? They have guns and rpgs and missiles, but British made goggles are too high a price tag for them?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
31. Probably resisting Israeli invasions for the past three decades.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. How Does That Translate Into Income, Sir?
Are you suggesting Hezbollah is a gaggle of mercenaries?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. Israel earned their money by getting on their knees
A pox on all the suppliers of this conflict
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Thank you for that
A pox upon both sides.

Each has so much blood on their hands it no longer matters who did what first- both are condemnable, and equally so.

(But it's the unconditional supporters of Israel that irk me the most. They sound just like the supporters of Bushco, and I know I'm certainly not the only one to notice.)
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Same Here
It's fanatical.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. noticed that too
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. The Lebanese have the RIGHT to defend their nation from ANY attackers.
Regardless of who they are and where they come from and with whatever they can USE.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. I wonder what the people in Lebanon are finding written on the bombs that
destroyed their homes and neighborhoods. Made in the USA.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. More likely Made in China. We outsourced that, too.
What? It's globalism.
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tweekinnow Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. UTTER BULLSHIT
They really think we are that stupid.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm sorry. What IS Hezbullah's source of income and equipment?
Let me guess: Santa Claus?

Why on earth is it unlikely that something sold to Iran would end up in their hands?

Please. This is the MidEast. Can you try not to let your soaring hatred of a tiny democracy cause you to whitewash nations with a distinguished history of bloodshed, corruption, and double-dealing? Survival in that area is a fine art and the least you can do is give them credit for their achievement.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. When you say
"nations with a distinguished history of bloodshed, corruption, and double-dealing," are you refering to the US and Britain?

Because if you are, that makes sense.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. Don't leave out Israel.
NT!

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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Night vision equipment is widely available
Edited on Mon Aug-21-06 01:10 AM by azurnoir
even Israel does not think this was part of Britons sale to Iran. It would seem far more efficient to buy this equipment in Lebanon. There is no need to smuggle it in.
When you say hated of a tiny democracy who are you talking about? The tiny one asserting it right to survive or the even tinier one that that was bombed
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Taoschick Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. It's a controlled export item
Israeli officials say they believe the state-of-the-art equipment, found in Hezbollah command-and-control headquarters in southern Lebanon during the just-concluded war, was part of a British government-approved shipment of 250 pieces of night-vision equipment sent to Iran in 2003.

Israeli military intelligence confirmed that one of the pieces of equipment is a Thermo-vision 1000 LR tactical night-vision system, serial No. 155010, part No. 193960, manufactured by Agema, a high-tech equipment company with branches in Bedfordshire, England, and San Diego. A spokesman for Agema in San Diego denied all knowledge of the system.

The equipment, which needed special export-license approval from the British government, was passed to the Iranians through a program run and administered by the U.N. Drug Control Program. The equipment uses infrared imaging to provide nighttime surveillance that allows the user to detect people and vehicles moving in the dark at a range of several miles.



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/200...


Since it's military night vision equipment, it requires an export license from the British government.
They have the serial and parts numbers, so they should be able to find out exactly where this equipment was shipped.

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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-22-06 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
45. So were A.Q. Khan's cascades n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. What difference does this make?
What the heck is your point? Yes Hezbollah gets financial aid from Iran. So what?
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
35. And?
You seem to want to make a point that most would readily conceed?

OK...having conceeded that everyone from Syria to Iran to whoever has been supplying them with money, guns and medicine...so what?

Brainwashing Americans with semantics like 'terrorist' really only goes to strengethen Israeli support -- it really doesn't do much to convince anyon else, especially those that are funding them.

Not everyone is required to view world affairs from the standpoint of Israel, you know.
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zreosumgame Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. so the democrcy in Lebanon does not count because...
well, we are waiting for your answer...
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The Sower Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
11. The Times = Rupert Murdoch


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22rupert+murd...

Of course it's possible they had a Brit kit.

I could probably find one on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com /


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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Did not notice your link?
Blinded by Murdoch's visage.
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. In Iraq they found two british men with the equipment
Funny I can't find any photos of them or their equipment anymore.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
42. You mean these guys?
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. UK arms 'found in Hezbollah bunker'
A spokesman said: "The Israeli Defence Forces have confirmed to us that they have found some night vision equipment, which they believe to be British, in southern Lebanon.

"We are seeking further details of the equipment to investigate whether it is British and, if so, by whom it was made and to whom it was sold."

There was nothing to suggest they were part of a batch sold by Britain to Iran in 2003 under a special export licence, a source said.

Reports that Israel had made a formal protest to the British Government were also untrue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6028036,00...
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. Um...it came from Iraq
Safe bet.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. Certainly a reasonable supposition. nt
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. Does this give Israel the right to attack London?
According to some stuff that I have read recently, it does.
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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Of course it does...
...didn't you hear? Israel has the right to defend itself.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
21. Just BS--- UK/US/Russia are arms dealers to the world
Who Cares....

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Ranger101 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. arms dealers
You forgot Canada, England, France, China, North Korea and Iran Etc.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I think the UK pretty much covers England, don't you?
The others have a ways to go to catch up to us I'd say, though China is trying.

I wonder just how desperate you'd have to be to get your smuggled arms from North Korea.......
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
23. US arms found all over Lebanon. Dropped on the innocent civilians
of Lebanon by the Israelis.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
27. IRAN IRAN IRAN ! ! ! ! !
this is getting really old really fast.

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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
29. Time to invade Britain!!!
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. The UK is a bad guy...
Israel's arch supporter, Blair, looks like he is going down to defeat and the replacements might be pro-International Law -- perish the thought...

So it's probably a forward action by the 'Israel machine' to set up the fact...wait for it...wait for it...the English are anti-semitic!!

So when the Machine declares the UK no friend of Israel and the supporters change their scripts, little stories like this will be posted again and again to PROVE that Britain are financing terrorism!!

Nightgoogles...WTF?

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
30. the top 5 largest arms dealers in the world are U.S., China, Russia,...
Britain and Germany. Not necessarily in that order.

I'm not surprised by this in the least.

This is like finding a china made product in a U.S. and saying the home owner is a communist. Heck I can buy british made water purifiers in in the states, does that mean I was the one who imported them? Come on folks.

Check out the movie, "why we fight" then watch, "lord of war". You will get everything you need to know about what is really powering the world economy.

War is money.



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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
41. Goggles on Ebay. 600 bucks They don't say if they are British made
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Trash
this was probably gen3+ GEAR OR thermal imaging equipment. Neither one should go to terrorists or iran imho.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
46. BECKETT ON ENQUIRY ABOUT THE DISCOVERY OF BRITISH-MADE EQUIPMENT FOUND
IN SOUTH LEBANON

---

Last week, we approached the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) about reports that they had found British-made thermal imaging equipment in southern Lebanon. They have now provided us with full details of the two pieces of British-made equipment found. The Government of Israel made no complaint about this equipment, and has been grateful for the UKs determination to get to the bottom of this issue.

One item was a remote video camera manufactured in the UK, which did not require an export licence and is widely available through normal commercial outlets.

The other equipment was a static thermal imaging system that was exported under an export licence to Lebanon for use at a private residence. The exporter has confirmed that the equipment was exported and would have been part of a fixed installation, and that the equipment is not suitable for hand held operation. The static thermal imaging system was exported directly to a private end user in Lebanon in 1999.

The equipment found by the IDF was not exported to Iran, as the media have speculated. Nor does it include night vision goggles: the equipment found is entirely different in nature.

http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket...
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
48. This is not ebay
stuff. This is gen3+ equipment. It is controlled sale in the us. ITT will only sell high grade equipment to law enforcement.

You can get lesser quality gear for less.

Terrorists got it from Iran. The company and government has a right to control the sale of sensitive things. Yes?

"Requires U.S. State Department License for export"
http://www.morovision.com/weapons_sights/raptor_6X.htm
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. What do you think of the story in post #46? nt
Edited on Sat Aug-26-06 02:44 PM by bemildred
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. It will be interesting to see
the response from israel. Static thermal imaging is sensitive. IR would let you observe vehicle and people.

It is optimal for things like zeroing mortars or anti tank fire.

I see no use for civilian thermal imaging in the home, but I may have missed something.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-26-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I expect the subject to be dropped at this point.
But if you get some further statement from the IDF please post it.
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