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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:45 PM
Original message
US Muslims bristle at Bush term "Islamic fascists"

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=dom...

US Muslims bristle at Bush term "Islamic fascists"

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Muslim groups criticized President George W. Bush on Thursday for calling a foiled plot to blow up airplanes part of a "war with Islamic fascists," saying the term could inflame anti-Muslim tensions.

...

"We believe this is an ill-advised term and we believe that it is counter-productive to associate Islam or Muslims with fascism," said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations advocacy group.

"We ought to take advantage of these incidents to make sure that we do not start a religious war against Islam and Muslims," he told a news conference in Washington.

"We urge him (Bush) and we urge other public officials to restrain themselves."

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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. The asshole replacement for Rush L. said today that
"while not all Muslims are terrorists, that all terrorists are Muslim." I was thinking, what about Oklahoma City?
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Yes, and the IRA and Eric Rudolph and Posse Comitatus...
and the Ku Klux Klan and and the Loyalist Volunteer Force, et cetera.

The know-nothings are hard at work, led by the Chimp.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. Know-Nothings - an old term but very appropriate.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
49. and the clinic bombers and shooters... and the anthrax attacker, and
the unibomber...
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
62. Don't forget ETA. (eom)
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Oklahoma city, Ted Kasinski, Eric Rudolph. Anymore for the list?
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. "Ignorance is the most violent element in society." Emma Goldman
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Bretttido Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Stop posting facts that contradict our great leader
If you hate America so much, why don't you move to Iran!?!? Hugh1!
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evox Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
47. or
Canada or Mexico or Cuba or Venezuela or Brazil or China or Taiwan or Russia or Iraq or Afghanistan or Philippines or North Korea... the list keeps getting bigger.
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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Timmy converted, right before he lit the fuse. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
46. And Sri Lanka
And the Irish "troubles" and Basque separatism...
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ikri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
52. That's a variation
I believe it goes more like:

Whilst not all conservatives are idiots, all idiots are conservatives
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Fascism (as per Dictionary.com):
fascism (fshzm)
n.
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Sounds more like the Republican Party to me... :shrug:
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eagler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. It also sounds like radical Islam. And a good way to
distinguish between Islamic fascists and Republican fascists. Both are extreme right wing.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. They don't really like
'radical Islam' either. Makes it sound like Muslims are all radical bomb-throwing miscreants. It has the same problem: it's used by outsiders, and implies a diversity of Islams. Since the latter doesn't exist, really, to insult one is to insult the one.

'Political Islam' passes muster, simply because it's too widely used in the Muslim press, and encompasses too many different strains of thought to be uniquely nasty.

People can't sort out noun phrase compositionality as soon as it touches a nerve.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
50. **'s afflicted with "Freudian Projection"
(The Joy of Psychopathology)(!!)
http://www.justabovesunset.com/id247.html
~...~
"Raised in a family steeped in privilege and secrecy, and prone to the intense aversion to introspection and denial of responsibility that are the hallmarks of a so-called dry drunk one who has kicked the bottle without dealing with the root causes of the addiction Bush has become a master of the psychological jiu-jitsu known as Freudian Projection.

For those of you who bailed on Psych 101, Freudian Projection is, according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a defense mechanism in which the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by falsely attributing to another his or her own unacceptable feelings, impulses or thoughts.
~...~

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. K & R ....
starting a religious war is what neoconservatism is all about.
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. 80% of the 60,000 voting Muslims in Florida voted for Bush because (& NOM
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 03:53 PM by wakeme2008
they felt safer with him...
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Maybe in 2000...
... but I'm under the impression there was a complete reversal in '04.
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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. ya right safer only in their dreams
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. why should they be safer than anyone else around here?
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Fundamentalists" seems more proper.
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dunn Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
60. Islamic Fundamentalists is the term that has previously been used.
I think that Bush may be trying to get away from that because that is what he is and that is who his "base" is - Christian fundamentalists. They are all religious fundamentalists.
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. I guess this is actually a battle of the Fascist.
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 03:55 PM by Bonhomme Richard
Here we have Islamic Fascist vs. Christian Fascist
Each benefits from every act or supposed act of terror. The beauty of it is that now you don't even need the terror act, only the possibility of one is enough to cause the people to cower in fear.


And on that note.............................Booh!
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
69. But, I thought Bush was a fascist? So many Fascists and so few Indians...
I'm getting confused.
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Hatalles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
10. The Christian Right and "Islamofascism"
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Hoping4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. Bush should look in the effing mirror. nt
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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. The term Islamic fascist is offensive, but to many people,
it seems an appropriate term to describe a political-religious system that, where it is in power, punishes apostasy from Islam, blasphemy against Islam or the Prophet, and proselytization of Muslims by death. (I'm referring to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and other Muslim countries where versions of Shariah are enforced.)

The intense anger against Israel in Arab/Muslim countries and communities has led to a distressing amount of anti-Semitism (such as the Blood Libel, or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion) being circulated in these communities. This is naturally cited as further evidence of "Islamofascism."

Of course, none of this addresses the real concern: Are "Islamic fascists" seeking to extend the domain of Islam (that is, their version of Islam) by force to countries that are not now Islamic? I think the answer to this question, and the thing that ultimately distinguishes militant Islamic groups from actual fascists, is that they are not seeking to do this. Even al Qaeda has as its stated goal to force the West out of Muslim lands, not to convert Americans or Britons to Islam or change their governments. Al Qaeda is active in the West only in so far that their military campaign ("terrorism") requires them to be there. An even better example is Hezbollah. While Hezbollah has committed terrorist acts outside the Middle East (the attack in Argentina comes to mind), they have no record of violence in the US, and instead are only involved with fund-raising and similar activities here.

The only evident counterexample to this is Israel: these groups wish to dismantle the "Zionist entity" (allowing Jews to remain only in a non-Jewish-controlled Palestinian state).

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. That's actually not quite true.
One the one hand, some groups (incl. AQ) wants to reclaim all formerly Muslim lands. Including Spain and Israel. Israel is just more egregious, an easier win, and more popular.

But the longer term plan--quite explicit, seldom quoted, and not dwelt on at length simply because the shorter term plans are more important--are to establish Islam as the top religion. Flag of Islam over the White House and Parliament. Bits in AQ's drivel, Tahrir, and a few other militant organizations.

Christianity and Islam are both religions that proselytize. But while Xianity considers persecution a bad thing that we're rewarded for afterwards, Islam considers it to be something that all believers must fight. Suppression of preaching is a sin in most Christianities; in Islam, it's an injustice, just as having Muslims under non-Muslim rule is an injustice, and having Muslim land under the control of non-Muslims is an injustice. Injustice is a canonical reason for jihad.

We all want justice. We just don't all agree on it. Moderate Muslims will agree with most DUers, for the most part. Immoderate Muslims will insist that justice can be satisified only when proper submission is shown.
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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Point well taken. nt
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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
41. it's a fair term, the muslim brotherhood loved the nazis
it's something we should be aware of, the islam supremisits do indeed connect to the global facist network still today.

Of course, so does the bushgang
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. Fascists in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...
:think:
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. And we try to be fair
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 04:38 PM by PATRICK
about properly applying the term! There are connections between the Nazis and some genesis of the terror groups, notably drawing on the anti-British sentiment as if they were sponsoring the 1940's "invasion" by the Zionists. Abtni-semitism and mutual war goals between colonilaized Arabs and oil hungry Nazis. Applying that logic one can excoriate the Bushes for their past ties to the Nazis or Eisenhower for sponsoring Cold War extremist factions. The Bushes shoot these miraculous stones through their own glass house with total impunity. I dare say the Arabs have left more of that legacy behind than the Bushes.

In fact, no matter how you look at it, over applying the label destroys the truth. As a faction there is no such thing. As IDEAS and hatreds passed along in support of an anti-Jewish policy is exists in dissolved fashion throughout the Islamic world. The word is meant more particularly in the ME to define the threat to Israel as bad and the defenders as good. Politically it is meaningless. Theocracy had nothing to do with fascism, material corporatism is a big bugbear to islamic fundamentalists, and most of the dictators are people we back against the so-called "fascists". In is Limbaugh laziness and Gingrich-speak applied arrogantly to the ME.

And the ME is not a Clear Channel/FOX market. They don't have to buy into that swill and wonder how this lunacy persists.

On edit: Oh, and did we mention the Bushistas' overpowering penchant for projection?
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TheLastMohican Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. It is bloody convenient to bomb Muslims from 5000 ft altitude
and then call them "islamofascists". Even daddy would restrain himself from making such an idiot of oneself. Ah the genes always rest on the younger ones.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
21. "More kristofascist klaptrap from an ass-kissing oil krony" - Sheik Em Up
How's about a kiss for your kousin oil-krony?


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Ghost in the Machine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #21
51. JEEZ! Can't he keep his chimp lips off of anyone????
:puke: I've been trying to find all the pics of him kissing someone.. does anyone have a compilation of them available?
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fbahrami Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. Islamic Marxists ...
... is what the last Shah of Iran would call his opponents.

In fact his opponents were often Islamic and Marxist, but never both.

Eventually everyone came together - including students, the middle class, and intellectuals - to overthrow him.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. Here's a clue, US Muslims: STOP VOTING FOR THE FUCKING GUY
Jeez-us.

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deminks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. Muslims bristle at Bush term "Islamic fascists"
http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNe...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Muslim groups criticized President Bush on Thursday for calling a foiled plot to blow up airplanes part of a "war with Islamic fascists," saying the term could inflame anti-Muslim tensions.

U.S. officials have said the plot, thwarted by Britain, to blow up several aircraft over the Atlantic bore many of the hallmarks of al Qaeda.

"We believe this is an ill-advised term and we believe that it is counterproductive to associate Islam or Muslims with fascism," said Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations advocacy group.

"We ought to take advantage of these incidents to make sure that we do not start a religious war against Islam and Muslims," he told a news conference in Washington.

"We urge him (Bush) and we urge other public officials to restrain themselves."

(but he can't, he's got to get his mojo back)
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Lovely. Bush** is now taking his talking points from the Savage Weiner.
Next he'll hire the nutjob as a flippin' speechwriter. :sarcasm:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. For pete sake, don't they know this is a crusade! /sarcasm
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Has Bush considered using the term "Islamo-Vietcongists"?
On the downside, it could be bad for morale. On the plus side, it may generate support for an intense War on Baathism. Who knows? It could possibly even generate support for an intense War on Terror.
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Bumblebee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Do you think he would call even someone like Hitler a Christian fascist?
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Perhaps those specific terrorists are Islamic fascists
but the statement lacks credibility when it comes from a Christian fascist.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. islamic maybe, fascists NOT!! because by definition -->
fascists are a governing agent acting in collusion with corporations/business interests to suppress the rights of the people/workers through immoral laws and tactics, using nationalism to stir up the muck.

the islamics who may be terrorists are not really governing agencies and certainly have a low ability to connect to corporate entities except for perhaps, oil companies.

BUSH&CO are classic fascists.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/2007politicalcalendars.htm
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BayCityProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I agree with him for once
If you see a spade you should call it a spade. However, Bush is also a facsist so that makes this all a little silly.
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Hoping4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Clerical fascism
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 06:29 PM by Hoping4Change

Clerical fascism has been used to describe organisations and movements that combine religious elements with fascism, support by religious organisations for fascism, or fascist regimes in which clergy play a leading role.



"Clerical fascism is an ideological construct that combines the political and economic doctrines of fascism with theology or religious tradition. The term has been used to describe organisations and movements that combine religious elements with fascism, support by religious organisations for fascism, or fascist regimes in which clergy play a leading role. For Catholic clerical fascism, the term Catholic integralism is sometimes used, though Catholic integralism does not necessarily go together with fascism.

Examples of dictatorships or political movements involving elements of clerical fascism include those of Antonio Salazar in Portugal, Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, Ante Pavelic and the Ustashe in Croatia, Miklos Horthy in Hungary, the Iron Guard movement in Romania, and the government of Vichy France. The regime of Francisco Franco Bahamonde in Spain has been described by some as clerical fascist, especially after the decline in influence of the Falange beginning in the mid-1940s. With the exception of the Croation Ustashe movement, scholars debate which other examples in this list should be dubbed, without reservation, clerical fascist.

Some scholars consider certain contemporary movements to be forms of clerical fascism, including Christian Identity and possibly Christian Reconstructionism in the United States; some militant forms of politicized Islamic fundamentalism; and militant Hindu nationalism in India (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh / Bharatiya Janata Party)."



http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Clerical_fascism

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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #34
56. point, set, match & bingo! Try "Islamic tribalists"
The current violent thugs who happen to be of Islamic extraction (true followers of the Prophet should disown these nuts) are Not Fascists.

-there is no one central organization or government
-no corporate backing; in fact the majority of these thugs are very anti-corporate
-no state policy of opression, etc.

For lack of a better word, they get called terrorists, but they have more in common with classical anarchist groups. Perhaps a better term would be "Islamic tribalists", as their ideals work only in a tribal setting. Their amorphous goal of world-wide Islam is unattainable, and they have no clue what they would do if they did "win". They fight in cells for an idea that is unworkable, and ultimately, their lack of true governmental-style organization will be their undoing.

The only reason the Taliban succeedes in Afghanistan is because it is a tribal area and has no tradition of centralized government. In Iran, the current regime is an overlay of Islam on a long tradition of authoritarian central governments: the Persian emperors and later the Shahs. "Islamic governments" would fail in the west, because of the differing political traditions. The thugs do not see these realities, because of the tribal traditions found in their countries of origin (not counting deluded converts from the west).

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. Can you say "projection"?
I knew you could.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. It's a stupid offensive term...
I always figured it was Bush/Neo-Con NewSpeak -- a conjunction of two jarring terms that are negative.

The two have nothing to do with each; a society ruled by clergy and religious law is a theocracy; no sense to INVENT new terms simply to appeal to the more stridently ignorant in English-speaking societies...Europe and the Middle East lived in theocracies for centuries.

The Islamic fundamentalism is motived by 'restoration'. Fascism posits an individual allegience and devotion to State, Corporation and Leader which would be blasphemous to Muslims. Fundamentalist tend to be Literalists -- governed by religous doctrine and not the speeches of a leader with a personality cult. It's doesn't fit.

Fascism in it's ultimate expression is a religion; a State cult.

So it's doesn't make much sense to associate Muslims to the Nazis, unless your attempting to suggest that the 'shared trait' is racist anomsity to Jewish people.

Mutually exclusive ... like calling Plato a Communist.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. The Crusades were so much fun the first time around,
the Bush gang has decided to bring them back. Great.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #40
58. oh, goody, when do we get to sack Constantinople?
:sarcasm:

seemed like every time a bunch of Crusaders tromped over to the "Holy Land", they stopped off to sack Constintinople...

(why does this sound sooo Monty Python-esque?)
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
42. Bush, the American Facist ...
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BBG Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Christo-fascists vs Islamo-fascists vs Judeo-fascists
Hang on, let me get some popcorn, this ought to be a real edge-of-the-seat thriller.

We're so fucking doomed.

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BadGimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
48. re: Islamic Fascists - WTF?

"Islamic Fascists" WTF is this term?

This is so gosh darn Orwellian I can't get my to stop spinning.

Is it just me or this a total Rovian mind F&$k term?

Can radical Islamists be fascists? Isn't a fascist in favor of the Government be run by Corporations and arn't Islamists against western style capitalism??

Someone help me out here..
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #48
55. Feminist Nazis
Same thing. To a rightwing blowhard, not letting them control your life is the same thing as oppressing them.
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Ragin_mad Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
53. Too bad thse same Muslims don't criticize the people that have
stolen their peaceful religion and use it as a basis for worldwide killings of innocent people.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. You are misinformed. They do. (nt)
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AliceWonderland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Inform yourself, please.
The echo chamber talking point really irritates.

I think that's the thing about nutjob talking points -- they're just so... stupid.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
59. A subtle change of semantics....
previously Bush defined Islamo-fascism as being incongruous with Islam. Now, by using the term Islamic Fascism, it begins to sound like something which is spawned from Islam. This only goes to show the brainwashing effect of Neocons, notably Daniel Pipes, who feel we should have a full-on religious war against Islam.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
61. so, then, bush & co the other side of coin: Neocon Fascists
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
63. It's Racist Slander for God's Sakes....
one, two, three... now you see. Snap out of it... the fucker is publicly insulting all Muslims.


Let me see....

"Bush... is only ignorant... he really didn't mean to speak like a bigot... no really." :crazy:
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Except that Islam isn't a race. n/t
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. No, But Muslims are
you are right... it's a two for one insult towards Muslims and those who practice the Islamic faith.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. No, Muslims are those who practice Islam.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/muslim
an adherent of Islam.

There are Muslims of every race and nationality, just as there are Arabs of other religions.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Muslims aren't a race either. nt
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Didn't Have to Be to Be Considered Racist
Racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others

Source: WordNet 2.0, 2003 Princeton University

So yes it is racist.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. You're wrong.
Racist, by definition, is:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/racist
"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/racism
"the belief that there are characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to each race. 2 discrimination against or antagonism towards other races."

You're the first person I've ever seen that used WordNet as an authoritative definition... Come back when you have some real evidence for your definition that racism is the same thing as discriminating on the basis of religion.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Would You Then Consider It BIGOTRY?
Sorry... but that's a definition I found and understood for a while. That's why I used the term racist. SO now I would like to know what your problem really is? Are you upset at my pointing out how bigoted the term "Islamo Fascist" is or are you just pissed off by my loose usage of the term "racist"?

"You're the first person I've ever seen that used WordNet..."

Yuh? And....? Is it not "credible" to you and if not, why?

Also.... "Sometimes racism means beliefs, practices, and institutions that discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race...."


Definitions of Racism on the Web:

or racialism is a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another. Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequality between races.
www.kids.net.au/encyclopedia-wiki/ra/Racism

(Audre Lorde): The inherent belief in the superiority of one race over all others and thereby the right to dominance.
www.uihome.uidaho.edu/default.aspx

The belief that one 'racial group' is inferior to another and the practices of the dominant group to maintain the inferior position of the dominated group. Often defined as a combination of power, prejudice and discrimination.
www.bl.uk/services/learning/curriculum/voices/refglos.h...

The doctrine that race is the basic determinant of human abilities and that, therefore, the various racial groups constitute a hierarchy in which one group is properly regarded as superior to others. Racism has also been defined using the following formula: Power+Prejudice=Racism. Racism has also been defined as a "system of advantage based on race."
www.unk.edu/offices/aaeo/index.php

defined broadly as stigmatization of those we perceive as different from us; defined specifically as the doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior. There can be an ethnocentric group of people without being a racist group of people because racism seems to need to have some systematized body of scientific knowledge. ...
www.geocities.com/paris/chateau/6110/europeconceptsterm...

Racism is prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities. Racism includes the belief that genetic or inherited differences produce the inherent superiority or inferiority of one race over another. In the name of protecting their race from "contamination," some racists justify the domination and destruction of races they consider to be either superior or inferior. ...
www.adl.org/children_holocaust/more_resources.asp

An attitude, action or institutional structure, which subordinates a person or group because of their color. Racism involves having the power to carry out systematic discriminatory practices.
www.gecdf.com/diversity/glossary.html

Judging an individual based solely on his or her racial affiliation.
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072863129/student_view0/chapter14/key_terms.html

personal (attitudes/beliefs/behaviors), institutional (policies, laws, regulations) and social/cultural (beliefs, customs) that subordinates others based on physical characteristics involves use of power plus privilege
www.accta.net/2003whitedef.html

Usually experienced as white supremacy, oppression/discrimination, action or inaction which subordinates based on race.
www.letswrap.com/LetsWRAP/Spring97/isms.htm

An assumption that there is an inherent purity and superiority of certain races and inferiority of others. It denotes any attitude, behavior, or institutional structure that subordinates, persons or groups because of their race or ethnic background. Such practices can be intentional or unintentional.
web.bryant.edu/~fsp/modules/2/diversitygloss.htm

Prejudice or discrimination based on an individual's race. It can be expressed individually or through institutional policies or practices.
www.culturalpartnerships.org/productspubs/glossary.asp

The stigmatising of difference along the lines of racial characteristics in order to justify advantage or abuse of power, whether economic, political, cultural or psychological.
freespace.virgin.net/brendan.richards/glossary/glossary.htm

is a phenomenon in which people mistreat, discriminate against, dislike or even hate, have disdain for, or regard as inferior other people based on their real or perceived race. The term is almost always used pejoratively, with accusations of racism being very common but with few describing themselves as racist. The term racialism is sometimes favored as a less negative term by those who hold certain beliefs about other races which they believe to be scientifically justified.
www.encyclopedia4u.com/r/racism.html

is power plus racial prejudice, a system that leads to the oppression of or discrimination against, specific racial or ethnic groups.
colours.mahost.org/faq/definitions.html

This managed to express itself in both pre- and post-Darwinian understandings. In the pre-Darwinian scheme of things, based on the idea of the Great Chain of Being the question was this: do the various races occupy different levels on the chain, some higher, some lower, or are they all basically human? ...
alpha.fdu.edu/~jbecker/nature/natureglossary.html

practices and attitudes that display dislike or antagonism towards people seen as belonging to particular ethnic groups. Social significance is attached to culturally constructed ideas of difference.
media.pearsoncmg.com/intl/ema/uk/0131217666/student/0131217666_glo.html

Racism may be viewed as any attitude, action, or institutional structure which subordinates a person or group because of his or her color. It is an ideology that considers a groups unchangeable physical characteristics to be linked in a direct, causal way to psychological or intellectual characteristics. This distinguishes between superior and inferior racial groups.
www.roundtoplewis.com/define.html

the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Racism has many different definitions. Historically, it has been defined as the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or that individuals should be treated differently according to their racial designation. Sometimes racism means beliefs, practices, and institutions that discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

So which is it? Are you mad at my use of the English language or at the point I'm making?

Either way the term "Islamo-Fascist" used by this administration is based on bigotry. And people in my country are falling for it. Just as if I kept using the term Christo-Fascists to describe people here in our own country. If I keep repeating that term, gee I wonder how Christians would feel. So which is it?
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Your misuse of English N/T
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Of course it's targetting arabs implicitly..
and arabs are a race, so his use of the word "racism" is perfectly acceptable.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
66. That's funny he
calls someone else a Fascist.

:rofl:
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
71. As well they (and we) should, as it is just a buzzword promoting hatred
and ignorance.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
75. That was a stupid line, even for Bush.
Saw that clip on TV and cringed.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
76. Is the term "Christofascist" bigoted?
No, and neither is "Islamofascist." Both refer to religious cancers on modern civilization that must be cut out.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
77. bush has a lot of gall accusing people of fascism
he practices fascism A LOT
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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
79. Chimpy was just making a little noise.
It was on par with all of the other idiotic noise he makes. Most people don't take anything he says seriously.
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