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Nambe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:28 PM
Original message
U.S. Troops Fix Bayonets Against Iraqi Crowd
NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters)


U.S. Marines fixed bayonets on Sunday to disperse an angry crowd of 10,000 Iraqi Shi'ites in the holy city of Najaf after tempers flared over rumors of U.S. harassment of a radical cleric.

Marchers dispersed after two hours but some of the Shi'ite cleric's supporters warned of an "uprising" in the city if the Americans failed to pull out within three days.

"If they don't leave, they will face a popular uprising," said Sayed Razak al-Moussawi, an aide to the anti- U.S. cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

Protesters presented the U.S. forces with a list of demands.

Under a fierce sun, aides to Sadr struggled to restrain his supporters and the show of force by the Marines halted the march on the U.S. administration office in the dusty and impoverished city, 160 km (100 miles) south of Baghdad. ---

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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Winning the hearts and minds........
"Meet the new boss same as the old boss"
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SodoffBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Our troops are trained to fight, not police
Bush has placed them in one hell of a bind.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Absolutely right.
This is going to bite us (and Bush) on the ass bigtime. Too bad our soldiers and Marines have to take the brunt.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Yes , he has.
Don't get me wrong, I know that Bush is 100% to blame for this mess. He choose this war, it was completely unnecessary.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Looks like we need to liberate those Iraqis again...
... (tongue in cheek).

Bush had virtually no plan for the aftermath of war in Iraq. They did not consider these consequences may occur and are therefore guilty of a very serious defects in their decision-making process. I could go on and on- but I will spare you the academic argument against Bush.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Believe it or not I heard some "expert" (idiot) on CNN the other day...
...say we need to re-invade them to put a stop to this. I am not bullshitting.

Don

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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. My one question for him would be:
How the #$@* do you re-invade a country you never "un-invaded"? What, have all the troops pull out and drive back in? WTF?
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Probably the invasion would be aimed at civilians or paramilitary
groups resisting the U.S. installed government consisting of Iraqi exiles that have no popular support. This war was never about WMDs. All about oil and U.S. world supremacy (IMO).
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is chilling, indeed!
I saw some pictures of the demonstration. I wonder if the 10,000 crowd estimate has been lowered the way estimates of our peace demonstrations were under reported. This is such an explosive situation - with weapons on both sides, if one person starts firing, it could all turn into a slaughter of greatly outnumbered US forces. We could pull our troops out, but we'll leave a charnel house behind.
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Don't worry about the US troops
They're outnumbered, but they are much more heavily armed than the Iraqis and far better organized. If one of these protests turns violent, the bulk of the bodies will be Iraqis who wound up on the wrong end of US armor or US aviation support.

A handful of Bradleys are all that is necessary to make mincemeat out of a street protest--excuse me--a gathering of pro-Saddam terrorists...
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Mal Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. I'm not so sure.
There is a certain point where superior numbers and morale (willingness to die) becomes more powerful than superior training and equipment.
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. How big a bloodbath is acceptable?
Numbers are overrated. Note that the Baath party was able to keep most of Iraq firmly in line with nothing more than a half-bit army and a few odd massacres. Political constraints are the only thing stopping the Americans from using the same tactics. The only limit on how long the Americans can hold Iraq is how many bodies--both American and Iraqi--that American public is prepared to tolerate.

Fortunately for the Iraqis, the American public probably wouldn't accept industrialized death camps, the use of nuclear weapons or carpet bombing to depopulate non-cooperative civilian population centers.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. Terrorists?
How are Iraqis terrorists? Nice try but no Bosco.
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Irony
Your irony detector is broken.

I'm mocking the Shrubbite propaganda.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. not the first time, this is what occupation looks like... -------- IMAGE
Edited on Sun Jul-20-03 03:50 PM by bpilgrim

(June 2003)

US troops guarding the entrance of the US administration's offices in Baghdad argue with ex-Iraqi army personnel staging a protest. The former soldiers have vowed to stage guerrilla attacks and suicide bombings if they are not paid back wages or reinstated(AFP/File/Ramzi Haidar)

more...
http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace
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KDLarsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Gee..
... I thought the bayonets had been dropped after WW1 - I mean, the only time I have ever heard of bayonets being used since then, was on D-Day, where a group of US troops were pinned down on one of the causeways leading away from Utah beach. Their enemies were on the other side of a swampy field, armed with MG's and mortars.
Apparently, having had enough of it, a young Lieutenant ordered the bayonets fixed, and then a large number of US soldiers simply ran across the field with their Garands with bayonets pointing ahead.

It was quite messy.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Looks alot like a "Boston Massacre" waiting to happen
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. And that massacre probably led to hard
feelings.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Why not give them the back pay????????????
Why not? If giving them the back pay will save death and bloodshed, what's the problem with giving them the money????

Don't tell me we can't afford it. We have enough for tax cuts, and enough for more bullets and bombs. Why not just give them the back pay?
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Nottingham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. This Picture is when the Czar used swords to Kill the demonstrators
Is this what America wants to be part of Oppression of a people

:bounce:
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. all it takes is one provocateur...
....in that kind of situation for a bloodbath. All it takes is for someone to throw a firecracker or shoot into the air, and we'll have a whole bunch of GIs dead.

Lord almighty, we can't win this. The well has been poisoned.
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geomon Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Thats what we need
none of this one-a-day crap we NEED a pile of dead soldiers and then maybe the tide will turn.

Before the flame think: if this goes on for a year that would mean hundreds of dead US soldiers if there are one or two big events with dozens killed and we pull ou tthen we are better off.

Do the math.
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Sushi_lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. Colin Powell modifies his Mi Lai quote:
During his investigation and attempt to cover up the Mi Lai massacre, Colin Powell said troops had "excellent relations with the Vietnamese people."

I imagine he'll soon be saying our troops have "darn good relations" with Iraq people.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. that is what democracy looks like
Democracy--and I don't expect the military do understand this, as the military is among the most undemocratic institutions in the Unites States--means free and open debate, including from people who express unpopular ideas and anti-American ideas. Shutting down anti-US newspapers, dispersing demonstrations and indefinently postpoing elections does not sond like freedom to Iraq, but dictatorship under a new regime.

American conservatives, save for militant anti-abortionists, have trouble with the notion that free speech is not always going to be genteel, kindly and polite. Thank God it is not, for then we would not have had the Boston Tea Party, the abolitionist movement (and great Patriots like John Brown)or the civil rights movement.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. guess those rose petals looked like rocks........
:eyes:
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. OH YES--- THIS WILL WIN HEARTS AND MINDS.
I can see the headline now.

Crowds greet and throw IRISH CONFETTI at our victorious troops.

Irish Confetti = 1/2 a Cobblestone.
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Could you please not use that term?
It perpetuates an unfair and unflattering stereotype.
Go raibh maith agat.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Websroot
My family is 100% Irish. I had no idea you took offence to the term. My Uncle Paddy used to use that term with loving affection to describe a cobblestone bouncing off some Brits head.

Some examples of of what one can find in RootsWeb's offerings:


Learning the meanings of such terms as "Irish confetti": the art of bricks tossed by a spalpeen (rascal or scamp) at an omadhaun (fool, idiot or simpleton) in the course of a donnybrook (a knock-down, drag-'em-out brawl).

http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/press/irish.html

Laugh a little--

this thread is about the CHIMP

I will not debate w/ you what is politically correct or incorrect in my Irish heritage.
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sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. I thought we were going to be greeted as liberators
I guess not :shrug:
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FDRLincoln Donating Member (947 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. bad, bad
This is bad. It's only a few small steps from the order "fix bayonets" to "fire at will."

If this pressure cooker keeps up...soldiers hot and tired and lonely, poorly-trained for peacekeeping, angry crowds who lack water and air conditioning....bad news ahead unless conditions for our troops and Iraqi civilians improve NOW.
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pfitz59 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Another 2 1/2 months of boiling heat!
Tempers will flare. I expect a massacre any day. (US troops bloody unarmed civilians!) At Wounded Knee the Army fired machine guns (Hotchkiss guns) at starving old men and women! Seems we've learned nothing since.......
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Have to make U.S. feel pain and withdraw, so U.N. can take over.
The U.S. will not allow this, because their reason for war was economic, not WMD threat. U.N. (France, Russia, Germany, etc.) must stay out to allow quagmire to reach full effect to force U.S. out.
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Keep things in perspective
This is bad. It's only a few small steps from the order "fix bayonets" to "fire at will."

Not by a longshot. Bayonets are the standard USA/USMC riot control tool. They are used routinely in these kind of situations. Orders to deliberately massacre demonstrators are a long way up in the list of severity and might not even be obeyed. This is not to say, however, that spur-of-the-moment decisions to mow down people who may or may not have been standing near someone who may or may not have been carrying an RPG (etc) are even remotely out of the question.
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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
29. Loose/Loose
"If they don't leave, they will face a popular uprising," said Sayed Razak al-Moussawi, an aide to the anti- U.S. cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.


If they are serious about an uprising (and I have no reason to think they're not) we can't win here, either we pull out (von Rumsfeld's ego would prevent that even if it were a good idea) and encourage the same to happen elsewhere and allow the town to fall into furhter chaos or we stay as unwanted occupiers and all that that entails (see the West Bank for details).
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Iraq pullout == boon for al Qaida
If the US pulls out of Iraq anytime soon, Iraq will degenerate into civil war and result in another Afghanistan-like failed state. Another way of putting this is that much of the territory formerly known as Iraq--and a fair bit of the oil revenues--will become open ground for al Qaida. Handing Al Qaida multimillion dollar annual revenues is little more than a fancy way of inviting them to conduct attacks on the scale of Sept 11 every month.

Pullout is not an option.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Yeah, and if we pull out of Viet Nam
then all of Southeast Asia is going to become communist, and the communist wave will spill over to the Philippines, and over to Bangladesh and India, and even to Australia, and that will be the end of the world as we know it!
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imix Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
35. US pullout will allow al-Qaeda to take over??

Wow what a load of nonsense. Your propaganda is laughable at best.

Somehow I don't picture how the rag-tag al-Qaeda forces who get around primarily by foot and camel could even dream of occupying a much more industrialized opponent such as Iraq.

They'd be dead of hunger and thirst before they could march 50 miles into Iraq. That is, if they aren't shot dead by well-armed Iraqis before they even get that far.
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Terrorism 101
With all due respect, the degree of ignorance your position displays with regard to the nature and propagation of terrorist groups is such that you are in no position to describe anyone else's position as 'laughable.'

Al Qaida is not an army. It does not march from place to place. It is a meme that spreads through the propagation of ideas among like-minded religious extremists. Remove all authority from Iraq and the situation will be ripe for al Qaida agents to arrive from elsewhere (Saudi...) and form new cells from the collection of extremeist nutcases already within Iraq. Terrorism thrives in power vaccums as there is no one standing around waiting to step on people who start seriously contemplating killing people and breaking things.

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BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
39. It is not a new situation
We saw same situation in French papers and Tv reports a several weeks ago.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
40. The hand writing is on the wall
....in your mind's eye can you see Pat Robertson devotees performing their love for Pat like this?
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