Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah today vowed to strike Tel Aviv

[JesterCS]

in retaliation for Israel's bombardment of Lebanon's capital, Beirut.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/03/mideast.main/...

[xultar]

1. WOW. Good thing this war on terror thing is working.

[JNelson6563]

2. Translation:

Lots more innocent civilians are going to die.

*sigh*

[leveymg]

3. They're going to miss the pre-7/06 Hezballah

When and if Hezballah is significantly degraded, it is likely to revert from a relatively stable "state within a state" back to its terrorist origins. Only, it will be a larger, broader group with even more potent Lebanese nationalistic appeal.

That's an entirely foreseeable "unintended consequence" of this Israeli military offensive.

[Boneman]

38. Good point. Absolutely

[catmother]

4. i'm just hearing in right now on MSNBC. let's hope that their

rockets can't fire that far.

[High Plains]

6. Nasrallah said early on he had some surprises for Israel

We saw that on day one, when the Hezbollah missile knocked out the Israeli warship.

We saw that when Hezbollah fired its new, longer-range, bigger-warhead missiles.

We've seen it in the surprisingly strong resistance to Israeli incursions.

I would take this guy at his word if I were Israel's leaders.

[cigsandcoffee]

46. Israel has no choice but to take him at his word.

This will up the ante.

[catmother]

5. Hizbollah needs to be completely disarmed. i don't know how

we can keep them disarmed, but they are dangerous.

[High Plains]

8. We need a JUST PEACE in Palestine. That is the root of the problem.

If Israel would negotiate a JUST PEACE with the Palestinians, we begin to take the air out of the radicals. It won't happen overnight, but with a just peace I can visualize a thriving, peaceful, and prosperous Holy Land.

[catmother]

12. that would be wonderful. i've always wanted to visit the Holy

Land, but have been afraid.

[Bretttido]

17. From all the death and destruction, it's not very Holy

[catmother]

19. it sure isn't but we still call it the "holy land". i'm not a religious

person -- just always wanted to visit israel, egypt and greece.

[Bretttido]

26. Ya, it's just pretty ironic

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[daleo]

29. They both refer to "war" or "struggle" in different languages

"Jihad" and "Mein Kampf". That is hardly remarkable. You could say the same about crusade.

If the Palestinian issue were resolved to most people's satisfaction, I think the oxygen would go out of the anti-Israel groups. You would never satisfy everybody, and there would still be fanatics, but they would be marginalized as extremist Christians are in North American discourse. Once people had a decent prospect of a life to get on with, they would get on with that life.

To me that would mean:
- two states with defensible and contiguous borders.
- agreement to recognize each state's right to sovereign existence.
- generous reparations to displaced Palestinians, but not no right to return.
- international assistance to build up the infrastructure of a realistic Palestinian state.
- Jerusalem an international city.
- U.S. involvement to guarantee a real peace among the parties.

There would be lots of details to work out, but that's the gist of it. I don't see it happening yet, because there are powerful parties that prefer the status quo.

I take some comfort in what happened in South Africa - whites and blacks are living together now, although it is far from a multi-racial paradise yet. Eventually I think Israelis and Palestinians could come to a similar accommodation.

[bkcc]

34. It's comments like this...

that keep the debate over the Middle East and Israel so nasty.
Do you really feel the overwhelming need to draw a parallel between "Mein Kampf" and "Jihad"?

Israel has every right to defend itself against Hezbollah, but it should be much smarter than it has been. The reason everyone is so up in arms about Israel's actions is not that it's going after Hezbollah, but the manner in which it's doing it. Launching missiles into the middle of civilian populations isn't going to win you many fans. (Especially when you lie about your reason for doing it and then backtrack to apologize and admit that you lied, as was the case with Qana.) It's like saying you want to take out the Bloods street gang by leveling all of Los Angeles. It may be effective, but you're killing a lot of civilians in the process.

As for your assertion that the Lebanese government is allowing Hezbollah to operate, then why not just blow up the capitol building and try killing off the political leaders in Lebanon? Maybe that would be more effective than destroying neighborhoods full of innocent people. And if you think that they're not innocent because Hezbollah may be using them as "human shields," imagine the police or federal government showing up at your apartment building and shooting everyone indiscriminately because there's drug dealer who lives in one of the units.

There isn't an easy answer to this situation, but I can pretty confidently say that they way it's being handled currently isn't going to work.

[Canadian_moderate]

36. The Lebanese army has roughly 80,000 troops

Time for the Lebanese army to asssert itself against the Hezbollah terrorist faction, don't you think?

The sad part is that Hezbollah has too much popular support among Lebanon's Shi'ite Muslims and the military would not dare to crack down on Hezbollah out of fear of another civil war.

[bkcc]

37. Actually, now probably isn't the best time...

since the country's being invaded by Israel and they're going to need the troops to defend themselves.

My point isn't that the Lebanese government shouldn't crack down on Hezbollah, but rather Israel's piss-poor handling of the situation. If you don't see Israel's attack on Lebanon as overkill, I'm not really sure what else to say.

Another point: I don't really care how big an army is, because an army isn't an effective way to fight back against terrorists. The whole point of terrorism is guerilla warfare and using fear when fighting against a far more powerful enemy. Bush's overblown, expensive "War on Terror" is proof of that. The main reason is that you can't tell who terrorists are as easily as a conventional army because they're not walking around in uniforms or holding signs. So, you can do one of two things: use intelligence forces to track them down (which obviously takes time), or blow up the entire population in the area surrounding where the terrorists may be, killing everyone, terrorist or not.

Israel's clearly opting for choice #2.

[catmother]

62. exactly. also i've heard lebanese official praising hisbollah

for its social programs.

[Snivi Yllom]

40. not quite right

As for your assertion that the Lebanese government is allowing Hezbollah to operate, then why not just blow up the capitol building and try killing off the political leaders in Lebanon? Maybe that would be more effective than destroying neighborhoods full of innocent people. And if you think that they're not innocent because Hezbollah may be using them as "human shields," imagine the police or federal government showing up at your apartment building and shooting everyone indiscriminately because there's drug dealer who lives in one of the units.


Much of Beirut is untouched, including the Lebanese government. You know why? Because they have little control of their country and even less control of Hezbollah. Keilling off the Lebanese government would actually make Hezbollah s stronger.

Frankly the areas receiving the majority of the attacks such as the South suburbs of Beirut and along the Israeli border are where the shiites are, and where the locals have supported Hezbollah, and allowed them to live among them. To complicate things, Hezbollah operates and hides among the shiite population.

If a police man confronts a bankrobber holding a room full of hostages at gun point but he has the opportunity to take the shot and take him out, the police man will do so. If the policeman actually hits a hostage, do you blame the policeman or the bankrobber for the death?

I see that for a war to end, it needs to be won decisively and a peace subsequently negoiated by multiple parties. The best outcome at this point will be Israel wiping out as much of Hezbollahs military infrastructure as possible, follwoed by a multinational force with teeth and the ability to use foce to enforce a ceasefire and a DMZ zone. Part of this agreement must include a deal with the Syrians and Iranians to remain free of Lebanese affairs.

Even then, that still wont solve all of the mid east problems, but it's a start. There will never be one catch comprehensive all solution or agreement to end all fighting in the mideast related to Israel. It will be achieved in increments.

[bkcc]

41. I think you missed the irony in my post.

I'm not advocating strikes against the Lebanese government. I was trying to take the argument of the Lebanese government being responsible for Hezbollah to its logical(?) conclusion. I agree completely that taking out the government leaders would just empower Hezbollah.

As for the example you used of the police officer and the hostage, the police officer would actually be blamed for the death. Sure, the robber started the situation, but the officer would almost certainly be tried for shooting a hostage, regardless of the outcome of the hostage standoff. There would be an internal investigation and the cop would most likely be suspended until everything was sorted out.

[Canadian_moderate]

50. If Hezbollah is the problem

then why won't the Lebanese gov't and army work with Israel to eliminate that problem and destroy Hezbollah's infrastructure.

If not for Hezbollah's aggression, Lebanon would be in the position it is in today.

[catmother]

63. exactly. i've pointed that out numerous times. it seems that

lebanon's leaders praise hizbollah for their social programs.

[Canadian_moderate]

66. Hezbollah's "social programs"

are meant to recruitment more people into a life of Shi'ite Islamic extremism. Why else would anyone expect Iran to contribute so much money to that terrorist organization?

[catmother]

67. exactly. and i have said that on numerous occasions. they

help the poor, build schools and then indoctrinate them with their evil shit.

i might get flamed for this but what the hell i'm always getting flamed. in my opinion christian missionaries do the same thing. they go to poor countries, feed the people, give them medical care and then convert them. the only difference is the missionaries are not violent.

[Canadian_moderate]

69. It baffles me that people here are so one-sided

They criticize Christian extremists for every little thing, but manage somehow overlook and look the other way when Islamic extremists do similar things or much worse.

Evil is evil. There is nothing enlightening about any type of religious fundamentalism.

[catmother]

70. yeah i've noticed that. it seems like islamic extremists are

immune to criticism.

[MysteryToMyself]

76. To forgive is devine.

Well, I know many fine people who are fundamentalists. They go more by the New Testament than the old.

I guess Israel goes by something like our old testament.

We fundies, we can turn the other cheek and forgive.

[barb162]

74. Bravo, catmom!

You couldn't have stated that better

[lumpy]

51. Bushco made the same 'mistakes'in

Afghanistan and Iraq. Nothing is working in those two countries because of US military excesses in the attempt to get Bin Laden and overthrow Saddam. They bomb the shit out of countries and then expect the world to applaud.

[breakaleg]

44. your choice of screen name is interesting and your position is far

from "moderate".

invading another nation because of a border skirmish is not defence.

[Canadian_moderate]

49. When it comes to the Israeli/Arab conflicts

I am not somewhere in the middle. I am firmly on the side of the Israelis. Israel is a modern social-democratic country with progressive values and a mostly secularist population.

I feel for Palestinians who have been displaced, but their terror attacks against Israeli (Jewish) civilians over the years have made it difficult for Israel to live in a peaceful co-existence. If Arabs did not attack Israel, there would be no conflict, period. It that simple.

Many Arab-Israelis still live within Israeli boundaries and they have every opportunity to be part of a democratic country. The majority of Palestinians bet on the wrong horse and ended up losing out by support terrorism and violence against the Israeli people.

[catmother]

64. exactly

[breakaleg]

75. yes, the terror attacks have been a serious issue. but what caused them?

I would argue that the terror was brought on by the occupation of Palestine and the inhumane conditions Israel has subjected their people to for 40 years.

Oh, and Arab-Israeli's are second class citizens in their own land - hardly what I'd call a democracy.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

73. In the form of a two state solution?

[ckramer]

31. I'm sure they will take your advice

[sleipnir]

45. The same could be said for Israel.

They seem to enjoy attacking and murdering civilians of an innocent nature. They are as bad as the people they fight. Murders and thieves across the boards on both sides.

[SoCalDem]

48. Good luck with that plan...

LA has been trying to disarm gangs for DECADES...
The US has been trying to stop drug trafficking for DECADES

[lumpy]

52. Apparentely Israel is dangerous,

at least the Lebanese and Palestinians intensely believe that.

[robcon]

7. I doubt this.

If they were going to do this, they would do it.

If they ANNOUNCE they are going to do this, I don't think they will.

[High Plains]

10. See my post #6 upthread.

[burf]

16. The CNN Reporter

said Hezbollah said they would fire further than Haifa, and they did. They would fire a missile with a longer range than that and they did. When they speak, it's not necessarily the old "Death to America" we are used to hearing from this part of the world.

Something just doesn't feel right on this whole deal. If you look at video there are relatively few military age men anywhere to be seen. It doesn't seem in reports I've seen that there are major battles taking place. Is there some sort of infiltration going on into Israel? Is Hezbollah and Syria and Iran setting a trap for the Israelis should they move into Syria?

Something just don't seem right.

[maxsolomon]

9. lots of Vowing going on

'thank you lord, for the healing gift of religion' - Bill Hicks, RIP

[Nimrod2005]

11. Do we believe him? has he delivered on things like that before?

Or is it empty talk...

[High Plains]

13. Yes, he has delivered before. See post #6 upthread

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. If they could hit Tel Aviv they would have done so already

What, did Israel just start bombing Beirut yesterday? No.

And what exactly would have been restraining Hezbollah from doing so before now? They just like Haifa better? Nope. They don't have anything that can reach Tel Aviv. Nasrallah is simply trying to stir up fear in Israel.

[allemand]

15. Nasrallah: If Israel bombs Beirut, we`ll bomb Tel Aviv (Haaretz)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/ShTickers.html

[Scurrilous]

18. Haaretz News Flash:

~ Source: If Hezbollah attacks Tel Aviv, IDF will ruin Lebanon`s infrastructure (Reuters).

[MrPrax]

22. LOL...

'turn Lebanon's clock back twenty years' - IDF chief of staff Dan Halutz, announcing Israel's intention to destroy Lebanon and anyone that happens to be in it's vicinty.

“We’ll bomb them back into the stone age.” - General Curtis LeMay, announcing US intentions to destroy Vietnam and anyone that happens to be in it's vicinty.

Have the plans of warmongers ever worked or achieved anything other than lots of dead bodies, an undercurrent of hate and drained national coffers?

[w4rma]

43. Yup Israel said that after Hez said they'd hit Tel Aviv if Beruit was hit.

So what does Israel do? They bomb Beruit.

I'm beyond covering for Israel at this point and Lebanon has absolutely no power over Hez. In fact the folks getting hurt the most are the folks who have little, if anything, to do with this fight and whom are being bombed by Israel: regular Lebanese citizens whom Israel is essentially holding hostage.

[ConcernedCanuk]

20. They CAN hit Tel Aviv - and beyond - they are being "considerate" IMO

.
.
.



Most of these are believed to be Iranian-manufactured systems like the Fajr-3, with a 45-km range; the Fajr-5, with a range of some 75km.

Some analysts believe that Hezbollah also has the more potent Zelzal-2 which has a claimed range of 200-400km and can be fitted with a 600kg high-explosive warhead. Its solid fuel system means that it can be more easily transported and prepared for firing.

Most analysts believe a more realistic range to be about 100km, but this would still bring much of Tel Aviv - Israel's largest population centre - within its range.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5187974.stm

(sigh) -

I sumtimes wish I did not know so much

[Nimrod2005]

23. How many people live in Tel Aviv? And how of them are Arabs?

[ConcernedCanuk]

33. the population figure of 3.1 million - - - 1/3 of the total population

.
.
.

GOOGLE!!!!! -

It's a great tool

Here's more
________________________________________________________________

the population figure of 3.1 million is the most correct description of Tel Aviv

/snip/

Larger Tel Aviv (called Tel Aviv-Jaffa, or Tel Aviv-Yafo) includes some other larger cities, like Holon with 170,000 inhabitants (southeast), Petah Tiqwa with 200,000 (east), Bat Yam with 150,000 (south), Bene Baraq with 150,000 (north) and Ramat Gan with 140,000 (east), alltogether about 1.5 million. Hence, without being officially counted as the largest city of Israel, all the small cities serve as suburbs to Tel Aviv.

/snip/

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/tel_aviv.htm

and from another site - -

"Tel Aviv, Israel

Harboring over 1/3rd of the Israeli population, the Tel Aviv Metropolitan area (170 square km) is the industrial, cultural and economic heart of the country.

More than half of Israel's industrial plants are found in the Tel Aviv metropolitan area. The main industries are textile and clothing, food and tobacco, metal and engineering, vehicles and transport equipment, diamond polishing, furniture and wood products, printing and publishing, and electric and electronic instruments and equipment.

Israel's only stock exchange is located in Tel Aviv, and virtually all the banks, insurance companies, and other enterprises operating in Israel locate their main offices in the city. Most of Israel's newspapers, periodicals, and books are published in Tel Aviv. The city is also the main center of Israel's important tourist industry and has many hotels.

http://www.ess.co.at/SUTRA/CITIES/telaviv.html

read on!

[catmother]

47. hizbolllah is being considerate. that's a good one a fucking

terrorist group who killed our peace keeping marines in 1983 who attacked israel without provocation -- they're being considerate. give me a fucking break.

[lumpy]

53. It is still being debated who was responsible

for the bombing of the Marine barracks.

[catmother]

59. it's debatable? what's not debatable is that they are terrorists.

[lumpy]

61. No shit.

A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.

[kamtsa]

21. Nothing new.

[Gully Foyle]

27. Cool

Maybe if both sides blow enough shit up there won't be anything to fight over, and better yet no one left to fight in case a single stone stands untouched.

[lastliberalintexas]

56. If they were only killing each other (ie, those actually fighting),

I might agree. But they're simply killing innocent civilians in each side's quest to eradicate the other's terrorists.

[allemand]

28. Hizbollah threatens Tel Aviv if central Beirut hit

BEIRUT (Reuters) - Hizbollah chief Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said on Thursday his guerrillas would fire rockets at Tel Aviv if Israel attacked central Beirut.

"If you strike Beirut, the Islamic Resistance will strike Tel Aviv and it is able to do so," Nasrallah said in a taped televised message.

It was the group's first direct claim that it had longer-range missiles that can hit the central Israel city, 130 km (80 miles) south of Lebanon. (...)

Nasrallah said Hizbollah would end its rocket attacks on northern Israel if the Israelis stopped attacking civilian areas in Lebanon.

http://go.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNew...

[The Stranger]

30. Can Bush send Candi to try to lower the temperature? De-Escalate?

Or is Bush too coked up for his wrecked mind to do even that?

[Bretttido]

60. During this crisis, there is only one feasable option for Bush

He must take a 10 day vacation in Texas and hope everything is better by the time he gets back.

[ckramer]

32. The right attitude for Americans should be:

We don't care for either side. Let them duel it out!

[ConcernedCanuk]

35. MAYBE, the right attitude would to be stay home and take care of their own

.
.
.

Just a silly Canuk thot . .

[lastliberalintexas]

57. Isolationism, apathy and blinders- not a great solution

Just ask the people of Rwanda how well that worked out for them.

[Snivi Yllom]

39. gee that's awful big of him to issue statements like that

while most likely hiding in the Iranian embassy.

[High Plains]

42. So he should paint a target on his back and stand on the street

waiting to be assassinated? Israel has this bad habit of trying to assassinate its political opponents. Sometime it might come back on them.

[lumpy]

54. As you sow so shall you reap.

Just ask Bush.

[catmother]

71. well i guess these terrorists have a lot of "reaping" to do.

[lastliberalintexas]

55. Fucking nutcase

Let's just put him and Olmert into a room and let them beat the heck out of each other, last man standing wins or something like that. Beats the killing of civilians, anyway.

[catmother]

65. good idea.

[Marie26]

58. So why hasn't he?

Is he being nice? Waiting for a new shipment from Iran, or what?

[catmother]

68. that's my thought or he would have done it by now. or maybe

he's really just a "nice guy".

[genieroze]

72. WWIII here we come.