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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 01:56 PM
Original message
Parents of wounded woman call for tolerance (Seattle shooting)

http://www.columbian.com/news/APStories/AP08032006news4...

Parents of wounded woman call for tolerance

SEATTLE (AP) -- The parents of a 23-year-old woman wounded in the Jewish Federation shooting are calling for tolerance toward the man charged in the case, his family and the Muslim community.

"I don't want to put any prejudice or harassment of the Muslim community here, especially of the family" of the arrested man, Layla Bush's father, Vernon "Brad" Bush, told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer for a story in Wednesday editions. "They must be going through hell right now," he added.

...

Kathryn Bush said her daughter has a bullet lodged in her spine, had part of her pancreas removed as well as her spleen and part of her liver, and is on a ventilator. One vertebra in her back is "disintegrated," although doctors have not yet determined what effect that injury might have.

"They are most worried, now, about her lungs," her mother said.

Both parents said their daughter cares passionately about social issues and the plight of others. "She probably would not be angry at the individual" responsible for the shootings, Kathryn Bush said. "If anything, she'd be angry at the causes, perhaps not enough funding for the mentally ill."

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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. frankly
then she's an idiot

if she's angry at not enough funding for the mentally ill and NOT at the guy who shot her, she's an idiot. talk about misplaced anger...

fwiw, interviews with the shooter's roommate etc. show the guy to be a guy with some issues, but no indications he was psychotic or any such thing

but the idea that because he had bipolar disorder (big whoop. millions of people have bipolar disorder) somehow means this whole thing is some sort of tragedy of a failed mental health system is laughably absurd

he has bipolar disorder. that is a far cry from criminally insane



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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Who are you to judge?
Frankly, I am disturbed by your post. I think it's commendable that someone has the wherewithal to forgive and to explore root causes of anger. But either way, the family of this victim has a lot more right to speak for her than you do, and calling her an idiot is really just wrong.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. who am i?
i am me

i judge, as do hundreds of others on this site for all kinds of statements and acts made by all sorts of people.

this woman chose to make a public statement that imo was idiotic.

just because somebody has bipolar disorder does not make them not responsible for their crimes, and it does not make a heinous and well planned murder, one where a person bought a gun several days ahead of the event, and lied in wait behind a planter, and then used a 13 yr old girl to force his way into the jewish center, and then shot defenseless women somehow the fault of a failed mental health policy.

frankly, it's immensely dismissive and paternalistic towards those with bipolar disorder, that they are not responsible for their actions merely because they have bipolar disorder

i choose to call her on her idiocy

if you think it's wrong, that's fine

i don't

im kewl with disagreeing on this


we can disagree





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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
39. Do You Think Jesus Was an Idiot Too?
He taught forgiveness and understanding (you don't have to believe he even existed)... the very things that piss you off enough to call her an idiot.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Wow
I know I'm probably not capable of the level of human compassion and fogiveness this family is expressing but I'm glad I'm also not capable of your kind of insensitive reaction either.

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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. that's fine
i'll repost what i said to the other poster

i judge, as do hundreds of others on this site for all kinds of statements and acts made by all sorts of people.

this woman chose to make a public statement that imo was idiotic.

just because somebody has bipolar disorder does not make them not responsible for their crimes, and it does not make a heinous and well planned murder, one where a person bought a gun several days ahead of the event, and lied in wait behind a planter, and then used a 13 yr old girl to force his way into the jewish center, and then shot defenseless women somehow the fault of a failed mental health policy.

frankly, it's immensely dismissive and paternalistic towards those with bipolar disorder, that they are not responsible for their actions merely because they have bipolar disorder

i choose to call her on her idiocy

if you think it's wrong, that's fine

i don't

im kewl with disagreeing on this

we can disagree
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. those uppity shooting victims...
who the hell does she think she is deciding where to place her anger?
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. she has every right to do so
and i have every right to call it idiotic
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Sure you do.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 05:00 PM by Bornaginhooligan
I fully support your right to be the pot calling the kettle black.

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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. blaming the mental health system
for this murder is idiotic

sorry if my truth to power doesn't fly wit ya

he's frigging bipolar

file under: bigwhoop

btw...

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=45227

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Mental illness is a pretty big deal.
Edited on Thu Aug-03-06 05:14 PM by Bornaginhooligan
Which particular condition are you suffering from?

Foot-in-Mouth Disease?
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. bipolar
is NOT a big deal

millions of people go about their lives every day with bipolar disorder and do not murder people

bipolar disease is NOT a big deal. it's a mental disorder that affects millions of people, but it does not detach one from reality, nor does it make one not responsible for one's actions

just because somebody has a mental disorder does not make one necessarily any less culpable for one's crimes. it depends ON the mental disorder and the specifics of the individual's condition

to claim (absurdly) that the fact that this disgusting vicious murderous thug, who held a 13 yr old girl hostage, forced his way into the jewish center, and targeted innocent women with a firearm after making political statements about israel etc. , is somehow the fault of the mental health system is an absurd statement, and one that totally places blame (w.o any evidence) where it does not belong

especially now, considering the interview with the guy's roommate and acquaintances of the suspect, NOBODY claims this guy was some sort of delusional psycho

he was (by all accounts) and angry, disorganized loser who happened to have bipolar disorder

file under: big whoop

as a police officer, i deal OFTEN with people with bipolar disorder. sorry. it is not the fault of the mental health system that a person who happened to have this disorder ended up murdering and attempting to murder several people

the statement was stupid.

if the guy was some sort of paranoid schizophrenic who had received substandard treatment, etc. the statement might have some merit

but we aren't talking a delusional disorder. we are talking bipolar disorder

big WHOOOOOP
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's a big deal if you don't have health insurance,
or have crappy insurance, or if you can't afford the meds.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. again
none of this rubbish is in EVIDENCE.

she was speculating and making an absurd statement just because the guy has bipolar disorder

yes, it would suck to have bipolar disorder, not have insurance, and have to pay for the meds yourself

the fact that this murderous thug happened to have bipolar disorder, though, does not mean that ANY fault has been shown to lie with the mental health system

in this case

again, the more evidence that comes out (which is why i reference The Stranger article) shows this guy to be your basic angry loser. and decidedly not schizoaffective, or any of the stuff that might make one less culpable for their crimes

frankly, this guy is a vicious thug who picks on 13 yr old girls and women with a firearm

he is a cowardly piece of garbage, as far as i can tell, and the blame belongs on HIM, not displaced to "the mental health system" or other such trite rubbish

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MoseyWalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. you need to educate yourself
regarding bipolar disorder. There are different types, one of which is bipolar disorder, manic, with psychotic features. Yes, this is a mood disorder, but a break with reality can occur if symptoms become severe enough. When a person is experiencing symptoms, the average person would be unable to tell the difference between this and schizophrenia.

Yes, it is a big deal.

http://www.moodswing.org/bdfaq.html
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. You MIGHT want to re-read the post.
It's the mother speaking, and speculating on what her daughter MIGHT consider ONE of the causes ("causes" - plural):

Both parents said their daughter cares passionately about social issues and the plight of others. "She probably would not be angry at the individual" responsible for the shootings, Kathryn Bush said. "If anything, she'd be angry at the causes, perhaps not enough funding for the mentally ill."


Now, you can call the mother "idiotic" for that statement, but if you read about her daughter's injuries, might it occur to you that the mother has a lot on her mind right now and JUST MAYBE hasn't spent a lot of time analyzing it?

It's not like she's starting a legislative crusade based on that idea... she merely answered a question in an interview. You would expect her to prep for that interview like she's a politician up for election so she doesn't make any statement that someone might think "idiotic"?

(Of course, you might be completely wrong too....I don't know enough about bipolar disorder or the other factors of the case to judge. In any case I agree with at least one other poster here - your post displays a stunning lack of compassion. Which evidently matters not a whit to you, and in the overall scheme of things probably doesn't really mean anything to anyone else, so fine.)
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. making speculative statements
w.o evidence about possible causes to place blame elsewhere IS irresponsible

it does a disservice to the millions of people with bipolar disorder who are not murderous thugs.

i have dealt with literally scores of people with bipolar disorder. read up on it.

we are not talking frigging schizophrenia (i have dealt with these guys. THEY are wacked.)

we are talking what is commonly referred to as "manic-depression" (cue: jimi hendrix)

her qualifier of perhaps is all groovy. but if she said "perhaps this might be the fault of aliens from klaatuu" it would be an equally stupid statement

her statement was stupid

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Kailassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Talk about adding insult to injury ...
It must be taking so much guts to insult this injured girl's mother like this.

And police wonder why they have a bad reputation ...
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. yawn
nice ad hominems

she said something stupid and i called it stupid

big deal.

grow up

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Kailassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Trying to find a cause and forgive is never stupid.
Insulting a person generally is.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. making up stupid speculations
IS stupid

there is always this rush to find a "cause" other than some people are just plain murderous thugs

there are probably (like in most cases) all sorts of interesting mitigating and influential factors

heck, maybe he had a twinkie that morning (the twinkie defense)

maybe he listened to an ozzy osbourne song

maybe he played a violent video game

maybe he listened to a gangsta rap song

(end sarcasm mode and TipperGore(tm) mode)

regardless, this guy planned a vicious murderous spree DAYS in advance, there is NO indication he was shcizoaffective, delusional or any such thing, and the sole claim to his mental illness is bipolar disorder

so, the claim was stupid. just as stupid as saying "maybe ozzie osbourne was to blame"

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Kailassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Well, I'm stupid too.
I tried to teach a copper.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. congratulations - a twofer
you made a laughable attempt to defend one person's idiocy by providing some of your own

you also do a disservice in reinforcing the prejudiced notion that those with mental illness such as bipolar disorder are somehow less responsible for their actions than those without

it's actually very bigoted, and very dismissive of the reality of what bipolar disorder is

so, really you get a twofer there.

one, you fail to place blame where it belongs

and two - you smear all those people with bipolar disorder who don't decide to go on a murderous anti-semitic crime spreee
congrats
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Kailassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Where did I smear anyone with bi-polar disorder?
That's a long leap from objecting to you insulting a victim by calling her stupid.

I don't insult people, you do.

I don't even call you a liar, because that would be insulting liars.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. it's a "soft bigotry"
by going along with the idea that one is somehow less culpable for one's crimes because on is bipolar

by going along with the idea that somebody who is (by all accounts - including his roommate) a completely non-delusional lonely loser who planned a well organized premeditated attack on a bunch of women based on their religion, is somehow the fault of the MENTAL HEALTH system

...

you demean all those with bipolar disorder, because you are going along with the assume speculation that merely because somebody has bipolar disorder, that their murderous premeditated crime is the fault of the mental health system

people with bipolar disorder are not 'victims' of any system. the vast majority are not murderous thugs, and their disease does not make them any less culpable

that's the dignity they deserve

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. a voice from the land of hate?
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I would guess the underpinning of the post may be
That it demeans or prejudices when someone blames a crime on a mental illness - to wit, the more people hear about someone being bipolar and that is the reason they did a crime, the more people with bipolar disorders will be feared.

Hiring managers, people looking for work done on their house, and a zillion other things who read such news will be more tempted to discriminate against a person with a mental illness when they are led to believe that certain ones cause people to go on shooting rampages.

It is a lot like saying poor and young people of color commit more crimes - part of that sticks in the minds of people and can greatly alter their interactions and perceptions. There are many factors at work in the mind of a criminal, one of the big ones being their environment (which can be complex).

Breaking down a crime into a simplistic reason can have broader consequences.

I do think calling the person stupid was uncalled for though.
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-07-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. I agree. So who should we go after first? The mentally ill or Arabs?
I'm with you my brother!
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Amazing people.... truly wonderful human beings...
I dealy hope we don't lose her. We so desperately need more like the daughter and her compassionate parents.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well said
:thumbsup:
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. The shooter had converted to Christianity
Although you don't see that mentioned very often.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Really? I hadn't hear it mentioned once
Very interesting.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It was in one of the local paper reports, I think
They had quite a bit of background on him, including the fact that he was supposed to have converted about a year previous to this.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. it's been mentioned in several articles
including the one i referenced

basically, this claim was made

it's also shown that he self-identified as muslim when he entered the seattle jewish federation

he came from a muslim family, and rebelled against their culture. he also said, according to his roommate, that he thought he could be more popular with women if he claimed to be christian and that is also an interesting fact, especially considering his statements about being a frustrated loser with women

what is clear is that he self-identified as a muslim, and also specifically targeted jews (even doing a google search for "something jewish" in the seattle area to find a target for his murderous ideas.

what his actual religious beliefs are - who the heck knows? he converts (and i am nto sure if this was some sort of formal process - which might evidence a real conversion, or just a claim to p'o his parents or what) to christianity, but claims to be muslim when he shoots people

so, what are his actual religious beliefs? who knows

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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-03-06 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. WWJD? what she did and she's Jewish too.
Hope she has a full recovery.
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colorado_ufo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
25. Perhaps there is still some hope for civilization.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. Good for her Mom and presumably the victim, putting the issue where it
belongs, not enough care available for the mentally ill.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-05-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. She sounds like a wonderful person
I hope she pulls through.

I know I don't have the compassion the family does though for the psycho.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. I agree
an eye for an eye never works
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Nikki Stone 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-06-06 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
36. Actually, untreated bipolar disorder can result in violent behavior
if the disorder is bad enough or if the meds are wrong.

However, I agree with sgxnk that we don't know if bipolar disorder had anything to do with the Seattle shooting. Nor do we know if the mental health system played a part in this guy's behavior. The mother's statement cannot be taken as truthful or factual.

However, I think the mother's statement was well done for public relations purposes. She may or may not believe what she said--I can't imagine her not being furious at what was done to her daughter--but she said the right kind of thing in the right context and will gain support for herself and her family through the statement. Magnanimous forgiveness is always an audience pleaser.
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