Ahmadinejad: Destroy Israel, end crisis

[Bacchus39]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060803/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_israel;_ylt=Ammgf5qUf_Jp.8peCWEwZMlvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-

PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel. In a speech during an emergency meeting of Muslim leaders, Ahmadinejad also called for an immediate halt to fighting in Lebanon between Israel and the Iranian-backed militant group Hezbollah.


"Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented," he said.

Ahmadinejad, who has drawn international condemnation with previous calls for Israel to be wiped off the map, said the Middle East would be better off "without the existence of the Zionist regime."

Israel "is an illegitimate regime, there is no legal basis for its existence," he said.

[QuettaKid]

1. uhm, I don't know. . . . .

call me crazy, but I doubt that would really "end the crisis".:sarcasm:

[rodeodance]

9. It is so unrealistic.

[everythingsxen]

86. How so? (NT)

[Yupster]

152. If everyone on earth is killed

think of all the crisis that would be solved.

[bemildred]

2. Oh shutup. Moron. nt

[blue2helix]

3. He sounds like Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage!

He must be a NeoCon! Just replace intent to Lebanese Civilians. Same methodology just different civilians.

[bunyip]

120. He sounds just like Olmert

:cry:

Too many right-wing fascists strutting the world stage these days. I just finished reading George Orwell's 1936 "Homage to Catalonia" and the parallels between then and now are chilling.

[Zynx]

4. Yes, George, this is what democracy in the Middle East yields.

[SensibleAmerican]

128. Iran's a democracy?

You have to be fucking kidding me.

[index555]

136. actually it ALMOST is

They have all the mechanisms in place , the only thing that keeps it from being truly democratic is the fact that they have this "supreme council" of ayatollah assholes that have final say over EVERYTHING , including what parties can run and who can run in any party.

[Taoschick]

153. Just that

One little thing, huh? :P

[MrPrax]

5. So even he wants a ceasefire n/t

[Syrinx]

22. a time-out really, because Hezbollah is being wiped out n/t

[Zynx]

29. He wants a ceasefire because Hezbollah is taking too many losses.

This guy is hardly in favor of peace with the "Zionists" for its own sake.

[MrPrax]

32. Well Zionists don't like him...

so I guess they are even. Sounds like an opportunity to negotiate, unless you suggesting we all take the side of only ONE SET OF RACISTS to the exclusion of others? I am actually against racism and hate, so I don't have to adopt the moral outlook of the Zionist.

I am in favour of defending innocents from war and at the moment, it appears that the problem is Israel -- Hezbullah has every right to defend it's territory and no one is being fooled as to who the real victim is here...sound familiar?

[Zynx]

62. Umm...This is a man who has advocated the killing of all Jews and has

said that the Holocaust never happened. More than just "Zionists" find him offensive.

[GuillermoX71]

70. I think A-Jab suggested

liquidating Israel, not "negotiating." (It's not the first time either).

How can one negotiate with someone who is working to liquidate them?

[Marie26]

102. A-Jab!

:rofl: We should call him that from now on. That way we don't have to figure out how to spell Ahmadinejad each time.

[index555]

140. Israel isn't calling for the extermination of all Arabs,

Hezbollah IS calling for the extermination of ALL Jews , (or their current leader is) how else do you explain remarks like " let all the jews come to Israel , that will save us the trouble of hunting them down"?
That is how the Arab extremists think, they truly believe this is the beginning of the "great apocolyptic battle which will turn the whole world into an Islamic paradise". Unfortunaltely the stupidity of our current administration has done nothing but strengthen the belief and numbers of these nutcases.
you can spout all the aphorisms you want to , but the simple fact is , THESE PEOPLE DO NOT THINK LIKE YOU DO!! , they will not hesitate to kill you no matter how progressive your views are , you must think like they do or die.

[Mandate My Ass]

6. Why are all the violent nuts in charge of the world right now?

How did we come to this? Ugh. x(

[Tight_rope]

16. LMBAO...My thoughts exactly!

[Tesha]

20. One nut at a time.

> How did we come to this?

One nut at a time.

And the proud promulgation of ignorance over
knowledge, and religious and political credulity
over a healthy skepticism.

Tesha

[Marie26]

31. Where are the statesmen?

Between Bush, Chavez, Ahmadinejad, & Olmert, I'm starting to think that most world leaders today are just braggarts who like to boast about how tough they are. Whatever happened to real leaders & real diplomacy?

[Mandate My Ass]

33. Not to mention Kim Jong Il

Statesmen? That's so last century. I'd be happy for someone who doesn't speak Orwellian doublespeak. Now killing to show how much you love life is the order of the day. Bombing for lasting peace. Spreading freedom by invading and occupying. Ceasefires only cause more war. Ugh.

[Tight_rope]

55. You forgot Blair!

[Zynx]

63. Lula in Brazil is one of the few statesmen.

[gulfcoastliberal]

81. He's a great statesman for the logging industry turning the rainforest

into a desert wasteland and detroying the ast indgenous cultures. He's a South American Blair, if you will. All for exporting that tropical hardwood and slashin and burnin.

[Zynx]

96. Oh give me a break. He's done a better job than most previous Brazilian

presidents in trying to stop it.

[gulfcoastliberal]

97. Looking at Lula

Brazil’s Amazon Deforestation Worsens—Despite a “Green” President

by David Morton

Because no one can really picture just how vast 10,000 square miles is, those who talk about the Amazon region have found a handier way to illustrate the scale of rainforest destruction. The total area deforested over the years, for instance, was once described as being larger than France; the devastation now approximates Germany plus Poland. In 1991, an area slightly larger than Lebanon was lost. That was the least-destructive year in the last 15; the average annual toll since then has been about the size of Israel. Two years ago, an area the size of New Hampshire disappeared. Between 2003 and 2004, the damage was even worse: about 10,000 square miles gone—Massachusetts—the second-highest figure in recorded history.

The latest figures, released in May, aren’t surprising. The pace of deforestation has increased every year for the last decade. But what’s gravely disappointing to many Brazilian environmentalists is that the situation got worse—at least six percent worse—during the young presidency of Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.

snip

“They lost the battle in the Amazon, they broke promises about genetically modified organisms (GMOs) and nuclear policy, and—this is the most important thing—they broke the promise we have with the people in urban areas to solve the problem of sanitation,” says Fernando Gabeira, a Green Party federal deputy.

Add to these complaints Lula’s hard push for the multibillion-dollar diversion of Brazil’s second-largest river—the São Francisco—and you have the small party’s rationale for quitting the president’s governing coalition in May. The news from the Amazon, says Gabeira, was merely the last straw.

http://www.emagazine.com/view/?2839

I admire the fact that Lula made it to Brazil's most powerful position after being a Unionized lathe operator, but he article makes clear he reacts when bad news leaks out, and is beholden to the farmers and ranchers - not protecting the lungs of the planet. It's a sad situation. I'm sure he's a better leader,, but seems to lack the political will to take a stand and enforce the laws against destroying the Amazon rainforest. It makes me sad.

[emald]

149. religion, thats how the fuck we got here.

[msmcghee]

150. That's on the right track, IMO.

Actually, I'd say it's religious-like beliefs. That is, beliefs that provide strong emotional feeedback. Many addictive personalities can become addicted to the brain chemicals such strong beliefs generate. They then use their brains to justify those beliefs, to justify their addiction - when they should have used their brains to examine those beliefs to start with.

It makes no difference whether it is Islamic or Christian fundamentalism, communism or supply side economics - beliefs that are emotionally, rather than logically held - can cause tremendous damage and will often result in the deaths of many millions of innocent people before they run their course in the cultures where such addictions spread and take hold.

Added on edit: Religions tend to be particularly problematic because they make no pretense of a logical purpose. Faith, not reason, is the admired quality in its followers. Communism, National Socialism, supply side economics, all religions, etc. always have seminal literature that purports to provide some intellectual grounding. Of course, their purpose is to provide a justification reference book for its followers. These arcane texts like Das Capital, Mein Kampf, The Bible and Quran - are only really understandable by those who display the requisite susceptibility to brain-chemical addiction. Take a look at Almedinajad's eyes for a current example.

[ChiciB1]

7. THIS IS THE REASON,,,,

why "diplomacy" is SERIOUSLY needed. These nincompoops who have run rough shod over America don't Get It and NEVER WILL!!

Cowboys & their boots need a kick in the ASS!!

[everythingsxen]

87. Is it?

What diplomatic solution would you use to deal with a regime who's stated goal is the extermination of a certain group of people?

[w4rma]

91. The Iranian hardliners have gained in power because of the Neo-cons

warmongering. And any political party we support in Iran would be shunned because it had our support, at this point.

Invading Iran won't work because it will just make the hardliners even stronger.

Diplomacy is the *only* option left because of these warmongering whackjobs.

[Marie26]

100. And the necons

gain power because of the Iranian hardliners. It's a lovely circle of hate.

[w4rma]

110. Exactly. (nt)

[AntiFascist]

145. I call it a conspiracy toward war....

they don't all have to love each other to be part of the conspiracy, but there are evil forces on all sides who are cooperating with neocons, and right-wing extremists in Israel and the Arab world. Their only goal is to profit from war at the expense of multitudes of innocents dying. You can rest assured that the oil industry has much at stake in this.

[gratuitous]

8. Appalling

And yet, you know that there is a segment in the Middle East that agrees with such a lunatic pronouncement. Right now, Israel has the biggest bang-bangs in the area, and the biggest brotherest sponsor; but the United States is getting more preoccupied with its own problems, and you have to figure that somebody somewhere in the region is putting together an arsenal to compete with Israel.

So, which way is the exit?

[Jack Rabbit]

10. That is disgusting and simple-minded

Ahmadinejad reminds me of Bush.

[Snivi Yllom]

11. Don't you just want to give Ahmadinejad a big hug for saying that?

birds of a feather flock together

[Bacchus39]

17. yeah, Hugo loves this guy

n/t

[newyorican]

19. Try sticking to the topic...

It looks less silly.

Hugo is looking out for Venezuela, not Israel, and rightly so.

Going down the path of the friend of my enemy is my enemy, is foolish. Especially since the words were coming out of the other side of mouths during Israels long love-fest with Apartheid South Africa.

China and Russia are much closer to Iran than Venezuela. Yet I see no vitriol aimed at them...

Like I said, sticking to the topic makes you look less silly.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JNelson6563]

44. Like these two wiley bastards, eh?

You have GOT to be kidding. How very sad that you cannot understand how the whole allies thing works.

Julie

[Snivi Yllom]

49. I understand how it works

Hugo Chavez in Iran 7/30/06: “What Israel is doing is fascism and terrorism. We call on the world to stop Israel’s insanity,”

For Chavez to make those remarks while in Iran mugging it up with that dirtbag Ahmadinejad, and congratulating Ahmadinejad for ignoring the UN, one can only come to the conclusion Chavez supports Ahmadinejad's bloodthirsty calling for the destruction of Israel and his ignoring of the UN and the world body.

BTW, you have the absolutely wrong comparison. It's not like Roosevelt meeting with Stalin, that's a fucking insult to FDR comparing him with a thug like Chavez. That's a photo from the Yalta conference where FDR was trying to get Russia to join the UN and negotiate how Europe would be divied up. Stalin was trying to expand on their wins. At the recent Chavez/Ahmadinejad meeting you had both slamming Israel, kicking up the militant rhetoric, as well as open defiance by both of UN resolutions calling for Iran to halt nuclear enrichment of uranium.

This is a much better comparison to the Chavez/Ahmadinejad meeting:

[JNelson6563]

51. Sure, ok.

Chavez is such a fascist thug. Democratically elected and nationalizing the county's natural assets is such fascism! And finding allies against the world's greatest bully who has worked hard to undermine elected position, well that's what I'd be doing if I were Chavez. The fact that Iran also has lots and lots of oil that the US needs very badly is a bonus for any would be ally/enemy of the US.

I don't see Chavez calling for an end to Israel in the quote you provide but for a stop to their thuggish behavior. I think Israel has been in the hands of neo-con types for some time and their treatment of others is testament to that.

Frankly, the quote you include could clearly be applied to our own country. Does that mean I want America destroyed?

Julie

[Snivi Yllom]

54. It's what Mussolin did

Nationalize assets under state control - check
Take control of courts, military and police - check
Use goons to intimidate and kill political opponents - check
Hyper nationalism - check


I don't know, do you want America to suffer? Chavez and Ahmadinejad certainly do.

[Bacchus39]

56. Careful, Chavez can do no wrong

the leader of Iran must be a pretty good guy if Chavez likes him.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dutch]

72. And of course, no-one on DU has ever said that.

But truth has never got in the way of your comedically obsessive anti-Chavez ramblings. What's sad is you and Snivi have derailed a thread about a genuinely bad leader (and yes, I do think Chavez is wrong to have anything to do with him) to peddle your own obsession.

[Bacchus39]

73. no, its just amusing to make fun of that idiot and see

how many people admire him. amazing actually.

[JNelson6563]

78. Who said that?

And here I thought the tactic of grossly exaggerating the opponent's position was a reich wing tactic!

Very sad. Out of all the content in the exchange you pull this out of your sorry ass.

*sigh* Sure you're in the right place?

Julie

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

162. "Here I thought the tactic of grossly exaggerating the opponent's position

was a reich wing tactic!"

Uh, I still see no evidence it isn't.

If you catch my drift.

[newyorican]

57. oy

Here I was only thinking you didn't know what you were talking about.

Then you go and remove all doubt.

[TankLV]

117. Exactly.

Nothing more needs to be said...

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ima_sinnic]

147. "a thug like Chavez"? what an ignorant remark.

you might benefit by educating yourself even a tiny bit. I'm not going to waste my time reading any of your other posts, you obviously have an agenda.

[Zynx]

64. You unwittingly linked Chavez and Ahmadinejad in a way that implies

they are fighting some epic struggle against the U.S. That actually plays very nicely into the rightwing's hands.

[Dutch]

71. How sad that you don't seem to give a shit about Israel

And just want to divert yet another thread into mindless Chavez-bashing.

[Snivi Yllom]

74. Exorcist head twisting time!

HuuuuhhhhhH!!!!!!! Have you read anything I said?

How did you get to me not giving a shit about Israel after my public rebuking of Ahmadinejad for calling Israel's destruction and Chavezfor kissing Ahmadinejad'd ass while also expressing additional anti-Israel comments.

I would like to steer the conversation back to Israel, and the enemies of Israel, who are completely unwilling to seek peace and co-existence.

[ima_sinnic]

148. suuuure you did!! apparently you cruise the boards looking for

opportunities to twist statements by Chavez, among others, to your own ends.

[DavidDvorkin]

12. The Israeli peace movement

Just lost whatever small amount of traction it might have had.

[newyorican]

13. Mirror image...

of your run-of-the-mill PNACer.

Just as short-sighted and stupid.

Unfortunately, he didn't come to power in a vacuum.

[msmcghee]

14. I sometimes worry that . .

. . one of these regimes has a small nuke in a suitcase.

It's a terrible thought but - why wouldn't they reason that the US is at our weakest position now and that we'll probably get stronger as the neo-cons are ejected starting in November.

They might feel that their best shot at destroying Israel is in the coming weeks to light the fuse on that nuke - possibly sitting right now in the trunk of a taxi in Tel Aviv.

This is what happens when assholes who couldn't make it socially in high school and ideologues with no military experience are given the reigns of power. (Check out FR to see these folks in action.)

We can all thank the MSM who thought it was so much fun making up delightful make-believe stories about Love Canal and earth-tones wardrobes - when the future of the world was at stake. Although I must also lay solid blame on the stupidity of the millions of average Americans who fell for that crap - who would rather be entertained by it all - rather than think about the serious problems we face and who could best solve them.

But, you Repukes (lurking) got your cowboy. I hope you get a chance to have a beer with him before the big day.

[High Plains]

35. One of these regimes does have nukes. I wonder which one?

Could it be Israel?

[msmcghee]

50. Perhaps both do.

But which one would anyone believe would actually use it - not in defense?

We've got 25 years experience knowing Israel would not.

[The Straight Story]

83. Israel may well use them I fear, sooner than later:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm

The Israeli Air Force commanding general issued a statement saying Israel would “consider an attack” if any country gets “close to achieving a nuclear capability.”131 The Israelis are obviously considering actions capable of stopping such programs and are buying aircraft such as the F-15I with sufficient operational range. At the first delivery of these 4,000 kilometer range fighters, the Israeli comment was, “the aircraft would help counter a growing nuclear threat.”132 They consider such regional nation nuclear programs to be a sufficient cause for war. Their record of accomplishment is clear: having hit the early Iraqi nuclear effort, they feel vindicated by Desert Storm. They also feel that only the American and Israeli nuclear weapons kept Iraq's Saddam Hussein from using chemical or biological weapons against Israel.


American government concessions to Israel for not attacking (in addition to Israeli Patriot missile batteries) were:

* Allowing Israel to designate 100 targets inside Iraq for the coalition to destroy,
* Satellite downlink to increase warning time on the SCUD attacks (present and future),
* “Technical parity with Saudi jet fighters in perpetuity.”

[msmcghee]

90. You may be right, but . . .

. . I think what they are saying is that they would attack that country to prevent it from establishing its nuclear capability, like they did to the Iraqi facility at Osirik back in June of 1981.

Today's conventional laser bombs should be far more potent against such a target than the unguided bombs they had back then. I don't think the story implies that Israel would use nuclear weapons to take out a facility. Although if they buried it deep enough that might be necessary.

I think Israel considers her nukes as insurance that no-one would attack her with nukes (or chem / bio weapons as the story above shows) - or else face complete destruction. For the sake of the world I hope no Arab power that has committed itself to the destruction of Israel ever gets a nuke. That's most of them. Israel will have to take them out - and we will have to assist IMO.

That's the serious problem the world faces now IMO. Nuclear capability is leaking out of the bottle and into the hands of some really bad people. These are people that we can not depend on their rationality not to use those weapons for political blackmail - and possibly follow through to be credible. We can not take that chance.

When we here at DU offer moral support to people like Hezbollah - we are playing naive political games and enabling forces that would destroy us and Israel in a blink if they could. This is serious shit.

Arguing about how many Lebanese civilians are dead while Israel takes out the launchers is a silly game - compared to what the world we will face if Israel is seriously threatened. You could say that those 900 Lebanese have died today - so that 9 million of them can live tomorrow.

I think it is childish to think that that Arab / Islamist regimes out there would be peace loving progressive democratic states - if only Israel wasn't there provoking them by mistreating the Palestinians. They don't give a damn about the Palestinians - except as political pawns to increase their own power and influence. Even if the general population of those countries admires us (few do now thanks to Bush) their political / religious leaders are dangerous people who have nothing but contempt for us.

We are in much greater danger - and the world is a much more dangerous place for us - than most here at DU realize IMHO. It seems to me that the only way to prevent such a catastrophe is to use conventional weapons to degrade the infrastructure of any Arab state that expresses hostile intentions toward us or Israel - like Israel is doing now to Lebanon.

Iraq is now probably going to fall into chaos - thanks to *Bush's ineptitude. The one bright side is that Iraq will not have any serious military capacity to threaten Israel for a long time. I think this was the part of the ME reality that many here did not (and still do not) appreciate. (Mostly because of the irrational hatred of Israel that many have here.) It's why Kerry and Clinton voted to give Bush the authority to go to war - even suspecting perhaps that we were being lied to. I doubt they thought that Bush / Rumsfeld could ever screw it up this badly.

The irony is that Bush lied us into it and we will tag Repukes with that for decades (if civilization survives that long) and they'll keep paying as they should - but the reality is that we are probably better off without Saddam running any military that could ever give Israel problems.

Damn, I hope we get a really smart president in '08 and a decent congress to help her/him. We really need that now.

Excuse my rambling and hand wringing.

[Phx_Dem]

98. excellent post msmcghee.....

[Andromeda]

121. I second that, msmcghee

[JackORoses]

143. do you really believe this is the way?

It seems to me that the only way to prevent such a catastrophe is to use conventional weapons to degrade the infrastructure of any Arab state that expresses hostile intentions toward us or Israel - like Israel is doing now to Lebanon.

It's not the states that are the great danger, it is the individuals who are willing to die for what they believe in.

Israel has blown the hell out of Lebanon and Hezbollah only grows stronger as more and more individuals are being given reasons to fight and die for their cause(i.e. their families are killed, homes destroyed etc.)

using conventional weapons to degrade the infrastructure = exponential recruiting of adversaries

You might win a battle with shock and awe, but you will lose the War.

You cannot Kill them All.
At some point you have to Live with them.

The sooner we realize this as a people, the sooner these events can all be some unimaginable turn-of-the-century history lesson for our children's children to ponder.

[hoboken123]

106. Of course they will

They've been invaded several times, their country cut in half by the cowardly sneak attack in 1973. Yet they've never used them.

So sure, of course they'll use them now.

/sarcasm

[Imajika]

15. Someone will be around to make excuses...

..for this guy.

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy
Israel"

"Israel 'is an illegitimate regime, there is no legal basis for its existence', he said."

I think this pretty much says it all. This guy wants Israel wiped from the map.

Yet....you've always got a pack of DUers that come running along claiming that Juan Cole debunked this or that attempt to parse Ahmadinejad's words to make them sound less awful.

"'Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented,' he said."

A lot of apologist for this guy try to claim that Ahmadinejad's statements about "elminating the Zionist regime" really just means the zionist Israeli government and not the entire Jewish state of Israel.

I think his above quotes about destroying Israel and about there being no legal basis for the existance of Israel kinda clear up Ahmadinejad's position on things.

Only the most dense of people, or the goofiest of Iranian mullah apologists will not see at this point that Ahmadinejad wants Israel completely removed from the map.

There are lots of very bad people in this world, and Ahmadinejad is one of them. He is a threat to Israel and the United States and we'd better take him seriously. The apologists and ostriches are hopeless, but the rest of us better monitor this guy very closely.

[LivingInTheBubble]

141. Regime change

Well he does say regime change. I have to say that the regime that was responsible for the terrible attacks on lebanon probably should be changed.

[msmcghee]

151. Yes, you are living in a bubble. nt

[AntiFascist]

146. Not to diminish the issue, but the talk of "eliminating Zionism"...

seems fairly common and always plays well in stirring up the radical elements. What seems to be much more insidious is Ahmadinejad's ability to unite widespread radical Islamic factions together, and to provide them with aid and weapons. He is truly beginning to act as the substitute for bin Ladin, all the while placing his own sovereignty in great danger of getting bombed. If only the more level-minded in Iran could view him as a traitor to his own people, willing to sacrifice them for whatever reward there may be in store for leading his people into destruction.

[ckramer]

18. Is he really a comedian?

LOL! How can a president of any country say something silly like this?

[Marie26]

21. There's a solution.

:eyes: Oh, well. At least he's calling for a cease-fire.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

52. Yes, that is what he is saying

[Tesha]

105. No, it's *NOT* what he's saying. The political entity of Israel...

No, it's *NOT* what he's saying; he's not calling for
anyone to die.

The political entity of Israel is quite separable from
its seven million itizens, and it is quite possible that
achieving peace in the Middle East will require radical
changes* to or perhaps even the abolishment of the political
entity known as Israel.

Tesha


*For example Israel may eventually be required to give
up its nukes if it wants to prevent other nations in the
region from also acquiring nukes. This alone would rep-
resent a pretty radical change to the current political
situation in Israel.

[TankLV]

118. This alone would represent a pretty radical change to the current politic

political situation in Israel...

Yeah - it's EXTERMINATION!

brother...

[Behind the Aegis]

124. It is.

Only a few here wish it *NOT* to be what he is saying.

[Briar]

24. Destroying a regime

isn't the same thing thing as destroying a nation. Doesn't everyone here want to see the Bush regime destroyed?

[enigma000]

47. If someone called for the end of the American Regime

and talked about wiping the American Republic from the map that would be different that talking about the Bush regime.

I don't think this guy just wants to remove the Kadima-Labor coalition government that was elected into power last May.

[lagavulin]

25. He does NOT say "destroy Israel"...

Not at all to play the defender of Ahmadinejad, but this AP article once again shows how Western media is intentionally skewing the facts.

Ahmadinejad does NOT call for Israel to be destroyed, he is actually only voicing support for a cease-fire--but he does reiterate his view that the "Zionist regime" should be eliminated.

In fact, in every quote by the Iranian President he only uses the term "Zionist Regime", although the AP then paraphrases some of his quotes and substitutes the term "Israel" in place of the pronoun.

[Zynx]

26. Um, Zionist regime = Israel

It's actually quite unusual for any of the Middle East windbags to call Israel "Israel", since they (a) don't want to use the "Jewish" word and (b) don't consider it a legitimate state.

There really is no credible argument that he's calling for the mere overthrow of the Israeli government. Not in the context of Middle East hate speech.

[Marie26]

27. .

:eyes: Ahmadinejad never uses the word "Israel" because he doesn't recognize the nation's existence. To him, "Israel" consists of Zionists living in occupied Palestine & that's it.

[plasticsundance]

28. Exactly ... Thank you

You have DUers here commenting on how bad Ahmadinejad and Chavez are, but Israel is bombing hospitals in Lebanon.

[Renew Deal]

58. And then you have others that are supporters of Ahmadinejad and Chavez

It's a very diverse group huh?

[JohnLocke]

30. The "Zionist regime" IS Israel!

Ahmadinejad does not recognize Israel, so he uses "Zionist regime" instead...

[lagavulin]

108. I DON'T think you can say Ahmadinejad substitutes "regime" for "Israel"

Again, I'm not trying to defend him in any way--the guy's definitely part of the Wingnut World Leaders Club. But I don't know that you can assume he is advocating genocide.

Look at the original text of Ahmadinejad's infamous "wipe Israel off the map" speech from the NY Times (And it's important to note what many people have cited, that the original speech never used the word "map" at all so the reference itself is pretty dubious).

Ahmadinejad begins by referencing how few Iranians believed they could displace their own repressive Khomeini regime in Iran (which was being supported, he noted, by all the "corrupt Western governments")...and yet that the Iranian people <i>were</i> able to do this quite resoundingly when they became committed to it.

He <i>then</i> directly compares that victory to their desire to end the "occupying regime" in Israel. Now in truth it's impossible to tell from the Times piece whether he is really, truly referring only to the Israeli's government or the Jewish people, but then the translation has been criticized many times for being biased anyway, so I think it's suspect to read too deeply into it.

But his comparison in this pivotal speech is clearly a call for "regime" change, and not genocide.

[index555]

135. he wants all Israelis dead

Just as the leader of Hezbollah stated that he wanted "all the jews to come to Israel and save us the trouble of hunting them down"

[Fredda Weinberg]

138. An Israeli regime that ain't zionist? Give me a break

You can stretch the truth only so far

[High Plains]

36. Isn't this like the US calling for the end of the Saddam regime,

the end of North Korea, the end of the Iranian regime, etc, ad nauseum?

[Bacchus39]

40. no, he is calling for the destruction of Israel, not of their current

political leadership.

[Lindacooks]

68. Read the original article. He does NOT say to destroy Israel.

Just the current regime.

[Lurking Dem]

94. Read the above posts, please.

He never says "Israel" because he doesn't recognize it as a state entity. Israel is ALWAYS referred to as the "Zionist regime".

[Fredda Weinberg]

139. Yeah, the current "zionist" regime. Got another kind for Israelis?

Sheesh.

[enigma000]

42. I don't think he's talking about the Kadima-Labor coalition government

And I don't think he cares about having the Likud party back in power.

[hatrack]

38. Yeah, that'll help

Asshole.

[Gully Foyle]

39. Amazing

just how limited the politcal scope here is sometimes. The guy is playing to his base. It works.
He and Iran look very strong. US and Israel are looking physically and morally weak now.
Why should he tone down an effective argument?
Truth is Iran needs to look as strong as possible these days.
It isn't as if the Us hasn't been trying to drive them into a corner, now is it?

[JNelson6563]

46. Thank you!

Well said!

Julie

[PATRICK]

41. Compared to Saddat

He has not moved from a position of political capital advantage on this theme. Saddat suffered the major defeat that made him immediately realize that it left the supposed leading Arab nation as a pitiful, overpopulated debtor to the richer oil kingdoms who did not participate in the wars. He came to conclusions that led him to take the lead for peace with a rightist, obstinate Israeli government. He was shot by Brotherhood extremists.

Mr. A is less of a popular leader, less strong in his position without the drama, and an unknown quantity for any higher character for peace. He also cannot do much militarily and can only act on this blustering irresponsible level for the home front edification. it is tragic that what was absolutely needed was dialog with Iran and support for moderates that would have curbed the barking, avoided the belligerence and kept down the movements from acting militarily as surrogates. As surrogates they can mostly provoke and discourage Israel for their own political capital to prop themselves up against moderates. On edit: Of course this bluster is active countering(or taking adavtnage of) Bush policies. It is their only outlet and gives them a show of power against a threat from the US and also solidify the advantages Bush gave them.

Without escalation Israel's survival and supremacy especially have been solidified successfully. Instead a new crisis is fabricated out of hodge podge of weakness that has been encouraged, enabled and empowered. Can't use the military in any way except to attempt the impossible. This guy would have been out on his ear if they had wisely offset and defused the provocations and given Palestine a real shot no matter what the pain. Every time they grudgingly start to relax on Palestine they start paying the cumulative price on what they have done and not done all these years.

The main solution is for all concerned to come to their senses and work for peace. If God grants land to someone or other let God decide in Good's peace. People who threaten and kill have no religious claims whatsoever- and will lose. Which means in this case most likely everyone will lose. Learning the hard way for leaders means finally counting the graves they have filled and knowing it was not worth it. God knows if there should be such lessons or such leaders.

[JNelson6563]

43. Jockeying for position

In case anyone hasn't noticed, there is a global game on right now and the various schools of thought (countries) involved in the game are finding their places in the pecking order. This guy is a relatively new leader on the stage, the scene is filled with high drama and he knows to be noticed and to play an important/lead role in this play, he hast to come out with some seriously dramatic lines. Much of the ME world has long had extreme anghst against Israel, Iran has always made it clear how they feel. There is nothing new here except for the clarity and boldness with which Iran's position is being articulated.

After reading much of this thread I can't help but want to remind DUers that our very own country has been represented on the world stage by the most offensive gang of thugs ever to stumble onto that stage for some years now. In the world's eyes we surely look no better. And Israel, they aren't looking so good either. They too have had neo-con leadership in place for a time and their presence on the stage has been equally dramatic and offensive as Iran's or ours or North Korea's or any number of characters in this game that are played by flaming assholes.

I guess I don't understand the reaction I've seen in this thread. This behavior from Iran is so predictable and really is keeping in step with the way international "dialogue" is being conducted these days. You're just not someone until you have announced to the world that there's someone you think needs to be destroyed. Finding allies on any/all common ground also seems to be a pre-requisite.

We are living in an era of "smash-n-grab diplomacy".

Julie

[CJCRANE]

134. I agree.

There is no moral highground when the B*sh regime set out to "decapitate" the Saddam regime and are also calling for "regime change" and worse against Iran. We are stuck in the middle between demagogues.

[TexasLawyer]

45. Translations

I'll grant that Ahmadinejad is a hater with a big mouth. But one has to consider that these speeches are translations, and that they emerge from a particular cultural and political context in Iran and the MidEast. It also should be borne in mind that BushCo appears bent on revving up the war machine against Iran. I'm not sending my children into that fight.

Also, it is one thing to say that "the Zionist regime should be eliminated," while quite another thing to say that "We, the Iranians, are going to come in with our military and actively undertake that elimination."

It is wise to take the headlines from these articles with a grain of salt. It is especially important that our leaders do so.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

Does Iran's President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?

An analysis of media rhetoric on its way to war against Iran - Commenting on the alleged statements of Iran's President Ahmadinejad .

By Anneliese Fikentscher and Andreas Neumann
Translation to English: Erik Appleby

04/19/06 "Kein Krieg!" -- -- - "But now that I'm on Iran, the threat to Iran, of course -- (applause) -- the threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel. That's a threat, a serious threat. It's a threat to world peace; it's a threat, in essence, to a strong alliance. I made it clear, I'll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally, Israel, and -- (applause.)" George W. Bush, US-President, 2006-03-20 in Cleveland (Ohio) in an off-the-cuff speech (source: www.whitehouse.gov) But why does Bush speak of Iran's objective to destroy Israel?

Does Iran's President wants Israel wiped off the map?

To raze Israel to the ground, to batter down, to destroy, to annihilate, to liquidate, to erase Israel, to wipe it off the map - this is what Iran's President demanded - at least this is what we read about or heard of at the end of October 2005. Spreading the news was very effective. This is a declaration of war they said. Obviously government and media were at one with their indignation. It goes around the world.

<snip>

[ConcernedCanuk]

48. Exactly - different societies express themselves differently

.
.
.

and the end of Israel as the USA's nuclear toehold on another continent is not a bad idea IMO

and that what Israel, at least it's military stance is over there

The USA's nuclear arsenal in other nations' back yards

I don't think Iran, or any other nation over there considers wiping out the population of Israel

Just to demilitarize them like we did to Japan and Germany in WW2

That's just My Canuk Observations though

whadda I know :shrug: ??

[Gully Foyle]

53. But

Jaun Cole debunked that "destroy Israel" quote MONTHS ago. Just a tad behind the times aren't you?
I don't have the link but feel free to cruise through his site for your needed clarification.

[TexasLawyer]

60. This article debunks it too

and is also from months ago. I think Juan Cole may have derived some of his own ammunition from this more detailed Information Clearinghouse article.

[Phx_Dem]

99. He did not debunk shit.

Juan Cole is wrong.

[ronnie624]

104. Your argument is so compelling!

Please don't leave me hanging! Impart some more of your profound knowledge and wisdom!

[Phx_Dem]

107. why bother?

I would not want to weaken your already frail grip of reality.

[Andromeda]

122. I don't think you would recognize wisdom

if it hit you in the arse.

[Marie26]

101. How often does

he have to tell you his intent until you'll believe him? "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time".

Here's him saying the same thing a year ago, from that pro-Western source, Al-Jazeera: "Ahmadinejad: Wipe Israel off map" - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm

Here's his "World w/o Zionism" conference - he made sure to have a banner in English so we'd get the point.

[Snivi Yllom]

80. lets be clear wht he says it

yes he does say it, forget the bullshit about lost in translation

He hates jews and Israel, and that's one reason he makes these statements.

The other reason is to build his own standing among the radical Shiites around the middle east. He can be described as a rock star by the brainwashed anti-semites in the Middle East.

[IndianaGreen]

59. Well, that would work!

Israel's solution is to destroy Arabs, and that will work too!

Bush's solution is to plunge the region into a biblical armageddon, and that will also work!

So after we are all dead, and our planet is a pile of radioactive ashes, can anyone say that all of our conflicts have been resolved?

[BeHereNow]

65. More than one indigenous culture agrees with you...

about that possibiltiy.

"So after we are all dead, and our planet is a pile of radioactive ashes,"

They say it is due to our misuse of consciousness.
I'd agree with that.

The Kogi are trying to save us from ourselves but
apparently they are not having much luck.

BHN

[Rex]

66. '...no legal basis for its existence...'

Really??? So Iran is going to withdraw from the UN? Funny how they blame Israel, but NOT the people who created it...the United Nations. I think Ahm is grasping at straws. You can't stop a war when you want the other side dead to the man, even after a ceasefire is called on.

Stop the hate Ahm.

[happydreams]

67. Those who live by the sword.....

The US and Israel should expect this, they don't believe, based on their actions, that Palestine has a right to exist so they get what they deserve.

[happydreams]

69. And besides, can you blame Ahmadinejad?

I mean the Bush fascists don't believe any country has a right to exist unless it abides their fascist dictates. Look at Iraq right next door to Iran and all because Bush wants Iraq's oil.

The US-Israel alliance might just come undone because of their insanely aggressive policy in th Mid-East.

[geek tragedy]

79. For being a hateful, bigoted asshat, sure. eom

[gulfcoastliberal]

82. So when Israel is attacked and defends itself, you think they are being

"insanely aggressive.

Maybe you should read about how Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel unprovoked in their desire to kill all Jews and destroy Israel.

- 1956 Sinai Campaign

- 1967 6 Days War

- 1973 Yom Kippur War

- 1982 Peace for Galilee

Arab nations want nothing less than what the germans wanted in WWII.

And that's a fact.

[jonnyblitz]

89. I think you have that back wards who the aggressors are.

war is peace! :patriot:

[Taoschick]

156. Are you suggesting

That Israel attacked Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq in 1948?

Just looking for a little clarification...

[jonnyblitz]

88. nope, you can't blame him. nt

[Marie26]

103. And you realize

that the insanely aggressive policy by Israel is sparked in part by statements like this from Iran's President? That's the escalation process.

[happydreams]

127. Interesting divergence of opinion on this.

:shrug:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

75. Ahmadinejad is illiberal, anti-socialist, anti-feminist, anti-science

and anti-Semitic.

Whether or not you believe that Israel's actions in Lebanon are wrong, one must realise that Ahmadinejad is using the current tragedy to push his hateful agenda into the main discourse. He is not worth defending, all progressives ought to distance themselves from such people as he.

[Deja Q]

76. Well, I'm going to go out and buy a tub of fudge.

What the hell. If the world is going to turn into a microwaved mushroom, I may as well have some fun before the end.

And since I'm alone, I may as well eat fudge. :9

[Andrushka]

77. Did he say it? That's my question

Don't get me wrong: I would not be at all surprised, but this has been reported with varying "translations". What interested me is that some sites have said it is based on a statement on the "State TV website". That would be here: http://www.iribnews.ir/

Now, there's nothing in English, but if there are any Persian speakers here on DU that would like to find exactly where he said it and what he said, I think it would be very interesting.

Again, I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't trust any report from the MSM unless it can be verified by other sources.

[HuffleClaw]

84. he's been mistranslated before

over the top rhetoric is expected from iran (and north korea, who threaten doom routinely) and bushco. interesting how much attention this guy gets though.

[humbled_opinion]

85. Dillema!

Shiites want Jews dead. Jews want to live. There is no middle here.

[w4rma]

92. This reaction was provoked by the warmongering neo-cons in both

Israel and the U.S. Iran used to work pretty well with us up until neo-cons started implementing their plan for an empire.

This guy would have probably been marginalized within Iran by true pro-democracy, not the kind of pro-democracy that Bush means tho, folks if not for the neo-cons' (miserable failure) empire building.

[humbled_opinion]

112. Provoked by Neo-Cons or not...

His rhetoric is fuel to the fire. Israel has every right to exist regardless of what Mr. Ahmadinjad says any armed faction (terrorist group) that states their goal is to eliminate an existing state must be taken seriously. So what does Hezbollah want? What does Hamas want? What does Islamic Jihad want? What does Syria, Lebanon and Iran want...... Like I said their commitment is to the eratication of the state of Israel and I am sorry to report that the Jews that live in Israel just want to live in peace.

[Harper_is_Bush]

93. "Zionist regime" = "Israel"?

Is that how it works?

So when Bush said he wanted to destroy the Saddam regime, was he actually saying he wanted to destroy Iraq?

NOW it all makes sense!

[Lurking Dem]

95. Don't be obtuse.

[Harper_is_Bush]

113. Obtuse? Not at all. You explain how a regime and a nation are the same.

[Behind the Aegis]

123. Read his current rant!

[Lurking Dem]

125. HE DOESN'T RECOGNIZE THE NATION OF ISRAEL

He considers it a regime in occupied Palestine.

[ellisonz]

111. Bingo.

You win.

:patriot:

[genieroze]

109. I don't like what Israel is doing right now but this sort of crap ticks me

off. Israel has every right to exist, nut-ball. Sooooo STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Harper_is_Bush]

114. Is the title really accurately describing what he said?

I mean, let's face it. There is an Israel lobby which is pushing the Bush administration towards confrontation with Iran. We saw it with the National Post, and there's a recent Guardian article about the Washington lobby. These are real people, not some anti-Semite accusation.

So how truthful is the characterization of what this guy says? I read the words "zionist regime", and that sounds like a political movement he's talking about.

[genieroze]

126. Yup

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel.


"Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented," he said.

Ahmadinejad, who has drawn international condemnation with previous calls for Israel to be wiped off the map."

With this sort of rhetoric Ahmadinejad is playing right into this misadministrations hands. If you think the Zionists are involved then they are playing into our hands as well. We want a war with Iraq and this crap may be the catalyst. Israel has the right to exist, they don't have the right to bomb innocent Lebanese and take their water. We want a war with Iraq and Israel wants water. It's a win, win situation with everyone but the innocent civilians on both sides caught in the middle of this garbage.

[Harper_is_Bush]

129. You are quoting the news item.

That does not contribute to an understanding of what he said.

And the "elimination of the zionist regime" is not the same as "destroy Israel" in my view.

Bush wanted to eliminate the Saddam regime, did he not?

[humbled_opinion]

130. and he will eventually succeed in destroying Iraq. n/t

[Dover]

119. He must be taking notes from the PNACer's game plan for Iran.

Iraq knows all about being wiped off the map.

[Comadreja]

131. Blatant Misquote

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Thursday the solution to the Middle East crisis is to destroy Israel."

What he actually said: "Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime,"

[Posteritatis]

132. Those are entirely synonymous in his eyes. (n/t)

[chill_wind]

133. Maybe. But the fact is that that is still not what he actually said.

Even Wolf Blitzer, of ALL sympathetic doormats to the non-stop IDF/neocon proselytizing, felt compelled to correct the record of his actual words last eve, when this was also mis-stated by the spokesman of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. The spokesman made the same claim. Then Blitzer read what was the actual quote. The spokesman, unfazed, deliberately mis-quoted again almost immediately.

Ugly as the reality and the hate rhetoric is on the part of Iran's leader, this is still very deliberate propaganda using the US media as always as a mouthpiece and vehicle. There can be no other word applied to it. The situation is bad enough without it!

[eridani]

137. Doesn't "regime" mean "government"?

Is the government of a country the same as the country itself? If I want to "destroy the Republican regime", does that mean I want to destroy America?

[krispos42]

142. There is a practical basis for its existance

500,000 Jews with assault rifles, missiles, fighters, and nuclear weapons. And behind them, the US 6th Fleet.

I would like to thank Bush for giving us Ahmadinejad. Your sabre-rattling pushed millions of scared Iranians to vote for him. For the same reason you and your party were re-elected (I use the term loosely, BTW. Fuck your anti-American buddy Blackwell), the Iranians flock to Ahmadinejad.

And guess what, Bush? Democracies can elect incompetent nutjobs. You are a fine example of this fact, especially when the process of getting elected virtually assures the competent people avoid it at all costs. A process which you gleefully promote.

[Chomskyite]

144. Misleading headline

For this reporter, evidently, disagreement with the government of Israel equates to a desire to destroy the Israeli nation and people. His quoted remarks say "Zionist regime." This is the equivalent of "Republican regime" or "Rightist regime."

During the Wallace interview, I noticed Ahmadinijad was a sly bird, never mentioning the word Jew and never saying Israel as a nation should be destroyed. It was always "the Zionists," who he explained was the cabal in Israel pursuing repressive policies toward Israel's neighbors.

Ahmadinijad is likely an anti-Semite and no doubt is supplying Hesbollah and Iraqi Shiites with weapons, but this is dishonest reporting.

[Harper_is_Bush]

154. Link does not work.

[TexasLawyer]

164. Here's the message I got

when I hit the link


Sorry, the page you requested was not found.

The story or page you were trying to access may have expired.

If you are having trouble locating a destination on Yahoo! News, try visiting the Yahoo! News home page or browse through the News site index. Also, you may find what you're looking for if you try searching below.
Search: Advanced

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

157. Zionism

is merely the ideology of those who believe in a Jewish homeland. It comes in lots of flavors- from secular to deeply religious- but the latter are a minority. It can be said that virtually all Israelis, as well as many Jews are zionists. You're stating that all those people are dangerous zealots. That, Mr/Ms Harperisbush, is dangerous and ignorant bullshit.

[hollowdweller]

158. Iran's Leader should be internationally condemened

For his genocidal statements.

The problem is that just like 9/11 caused people to rally around Bush because he talked tough, the US going around threatening everybody that they don't like arises those same feelings in those countries and the result is the nationalisim causes them to elect as big or bigger rednecks than we have.

In a US that had been led by Democrats for the last 8 years the whole world would still have sympathy for us after 9/11, we would have brokered a peace deal in the mideast between Israel and the Palestinians and we would have no war in Lebanon for Israel to look bad in. The US would be providing humanitarian assistance and economic development $$ in some of these countries that now hate us and we would still have the moral high ground and we could lead a chorus of international condemnation of Iran's leader.

[drfresh]

159. that link doesn't work -nt

[Chi-Town Exile]

160. Why do so many here bend over back wards to defend Ahmenjhad?

It is completely unacceptable that any leader of a sovereign nation would speak this way about another sovereign nation.

Just as it was completely unacceptable when President Asshat said the things he did about Saddam Hussein during the run up to the war.

If you want to obtain any moral high ground you must condemn genocidal remarks when they are uttered about ANY people or nation.

Otherwise, you are deluding yourselves and furthermore, you are completely full of shit.

[brentspeak]

161. It's because the far-left/far-right outnumber the Democrats on DU

or at least on threads like this one. And more than a few of the Ahmenjhad defenders are just trolls trying to discredit a Democratic website.

on edit: Though, I just reviewed the posts on this thread, and there's way more people blasting Iran's leader for the dangerous whacko that he is than there are defending him.

[happydreams]

163. So Bacchus (Goddess of Wine). What would you do

if you were Ahmadinejad? Answer me that.

[Moderator]

165. Locking

no longer breaking news, and had not had a comment for two weeks before a few hours ago