Guantanamo suicides 'acts of war'

[DoYouEverWonder]

11 June 2006

The suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, amount to acts of war, the US military says.

The camp commander said the two Saudis and a Yemeni were "committed" and had killed themselves in "an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us".

Rights groups said the men who hanged themselves had been driven by despair.

President George W Bush expressed "serious concern" over the suicides at Guantanamo, which holds about 460 men captured in the US "war on terror".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5068606.stm


WTF? If this is how the camp commander sees the world then he needs to be relieved of his command.

[draft]

1. sign of the times...

this seems so familiar... GEACPS

[Freedom_Aflaim]

2. As acts of war go...

I don't think this one is very effective.

WTF? act of war? What are they smoking?

Taking everything at face value, and assuming that they are enemys, how is hanging yourself an act of war against another nation?

[killbotfactory]

3. Is he fucking kidding?

These people are being held in cages with no hope of ever being charged with ANYTHING. What would you do in a situation like that?

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Here's a bit more from the article

Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair.

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed," he said.

"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."


Sounds like Harris drinks way too much BushCo Kool-aide.

[rfranklin]

6. This guy is clinically insane...

and should be relieved of command immediately.

[Kurovski]

38. He will most likely be promoted instead.

You have to be at least a bit crazy to continue to attempt to justify Bush's war.

[daleo]

23. It reminds me of the Viet Nam book "Dispatches"

By the journalist, Micheal Herr I think.

He relates a story of a colonel who claims the U.S. has to ultimately prevail because they eat potatoes and steaks while the Viet Namese eat rice and a few grungy fish heads. The reporter ends up saying "Colonel, I think you are insane".

[lostnfound]

30. I think of it as Orwellian

Just another example of obvious lies being spoken as a way to prop up a false belief system

[Maven]

44. They are after our PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!

:argh:

[Blue_Tires]

51. lol.....well played

i was about to mention Gen. Ripper as well

[Critters2]

53. Ripper!!

That's his name! I thought of him the minute I read this!

[Critters2]

50. When I read this

I had this flash of the crazy officer in "Dr. Strangelove" whose obsessed with the purity of his bodily fluids to the point of starting a nuclear war.

These military types are out of their fucking minds....with an unlimited supply of our tax dollars!!

[ShortnFiery]

21. These Crass People Represent Our Military Leaders ...

Is it any wonder that with regard to the Rules of Engagement and the Treatment of Prisoners, the Average Boot Troop is FUBAR?

The inmates have taken over the asylum. Our soldiers do not have Military Leaders DEMONSTRATE morality. How in the HELL can we expect this from the line troops who only get punished IF it is in pictures.

There's far far more atrocities that are occurring every damn day. However, without picture perfect proof, Rummy and his ghouls are tacitly giving MURDER and TORTURE "the green light" for all others within their command. :puke: :grr: :puke:

[dmoded]

5. so by using that same pretext...

where the hell is the logical thinking in that? they are being wrongfully detained with no civil right, amnesty international is dying to get in there so that perhaps 1 may get a chance to see a lawyer.

they have had enough, out of desperation kill themselves and it's an 'act of war' oh god..

just when i think i've seen it all.....

then again, the bush administrations spread of 'democracy' in iraq and afghanistan and labelling iran and north korea evil must be 'peace gestures' right?

Someone put bush on trial for war crimes already, this is enough.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

7. More discussion on this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2331595&mesg_id=2331884

[Bluerthanblue]

15. and here-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1400254&mesg_id=1400254

[Supersedeas]

52. thanks for the link

[kurth]

8. Dying in prison is an "act of war"?

WTF.

[lakercub]

36. Absolutely.

You are not allowed to die by your own hands...we don't get the pleasure of gruesome torture and murder that way. Denying the opportunity to do unspeakable things at Gitmo is a denial of this man's right to sadistic pleasure. The right to sadistic pleasure is in the Constitution somewhere I think.

[Sabien]

9. using that logic...

...forced feedings are also acts of war

why does the camp commander hate peace so much?

[liberal N proud]

10. How can they call it an act of war when a prisoner kills himself?

:wtf:

I just don't get it, Must be taking the wrong drugs.

[acmavm]

11. Our military brass aren't very smart it seems. Or ethical.

[Rose Siding]

12. Pure propaganda- How would they know the news would be made public

How could those men have even known that news of their deaths would have been made public?

The adm says: "They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

A translater for Guantanamo prisoners' lawyers wrote in the WP:

Ali Shah Mousovi is standing at attention at the far end of the room, his leg chained to the floor. His expression is wary, but when he sees me in my traditional embroidered shawl from Peshawar, he breaks into a smile. Later, he'll tell me that I resemble his younger sister, and that for a split second he mistook me for her....

I introduce myself and Peter Ryan, a Philadelphia lawyer for whom I'm interpreting. I hand Mousovi a Starbucks chai, the closest thing to Afghan tea I've been able to find on the base. Then I open up boxes of pizza, cookies and baklava, but he doesn't reach for anything. Instead, in true Afghan fashion, he urges us to share the food we have brought for him.

Mousovi is a physician from the Afghan city of Gardez, where he was arrested by U.S. troops 2 1/2 years ago. He tells us that he had returned to Afghanistan in August 2003, after 12 years of exile in Iran, to help rebuild his wathan , his homeland. He believes that someone turned him in to U.S. forces just to collect up to $25,000 being offered to anyone who gave up a Talib or al-Qaeda member.
...
He doesn't know why he was brought to Guantanamo Bay. He had hoped he would be freed at his military hearing in December 2004. Instead, he was accused of associating with the Taliban and of funneling money to anti-coalition insurgents. When he asked for evidence, he was told it was classified. And so he sits in prison, far from his wife and three children. More than anyone, he misses his 11-year-old daughter, Hajar. When he talks about her, his eyes fill with tears and his head droops......

Most are held in isolation in cells separated by thick steel mesh or concrete walls. Every man eats every meal alone in his small cell. The prisoners are allowed out of their cells three times a week for about 15 minutes to exercise, often in the middle of the night, so many don't see sunlight for months at a time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/29/AR2006042900145_pf.html

WHO has no regard for life, Admiral?

[Karenina]

18. Indeed.

You see, the Amis who held them are the REAL victims. Had they simply continued to participate in their own brutalization, everything would be bidness as usual! :eyes:

[Demeter]

13. I Heard That on the Car Radio and Nearly Crashed

The utter stupid insanity of it! They must have been lowering standards back when this genius signed up, too.

Act of desperation, absolutely.

The kind of martyrdom that Christians can understand, indubitably.

Act of war? That's all on the other side of the ping pong table, General.




My mistake---he's an Admiral--a Rear Admiral (you may draw any conclusions you wish from that--comedians don't usually get handed gifts like that!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5068606.stm


UK Constitutional Affairs Minister Harriet Harman told the BBC on Sunday the camp should be moved to the US or shut down.

"If it's perfectly legal and there's nothing going wrong there - well, why don't they have it in America and then the American court system can supervise it?" she said.

William Goodman from the New York-based Center for Constitutional Rights told AFP news agency the three dead men were "heroes for those of us who believe in basic American values of justice, fairness and democracy".

Mr Goodman, whose organisation represents some 300 detainees, said the government had denied them that.

Ken Roth, head of Human Rights Watch in New York, told the BBC the men had probably been driven by despair.

"These people are despairing because they are being held lawlessly," he said.

"There's no end in sight. They're not being brought before any independent judges. They're not being charged and convicted for any crime."

[lostnfound]

32. I respect the work of CCR but

Mr Goodman shouldn't call them "heroes", IMHO.

[Kailassa]

55. We've no reason to call them anything but heroes.

They were never charged with anything, and if you think being sent to Guantanamo is an indication you're a terrorist, you need to do some research.

These guys survived years of torture in that terrible place. Could you? Or are you under the comfortable impression that, being innocent, that could never happen to you?

When a government gets away with this sort of thing, no-one is safe.

Try living in a cage, being humiliated, tortured and beaten for years, never seeing an end to it, never knowing when you'll be "water-boarded" next, and then quibble with with someone who wants to emphasize the fact that these were human beings, men illegally locked up by an illegal government, which never had anything to charge them with.

[Up2Late]

14. Yeah, those three committing suicide are acts of war in Bushzarro world

Just like the "Gays" have an agenda to "Destroy marriage" and "...that Rape victim was asking for it" :banghead: :crazy:

[MindPilot]

16. can anyone explain the term "asymmetrical warfare"?

One would assume it means one-sided in which case it is simply redundant in this context.

But apparently it means something when applied in NewSpeak:
"We treat our captured enemies humanely with cultural sensitivity" Asymmetrical Translation: We treat their lifeless bodies that way, not them.

"Leveling a country an killing tens of thousands" Asymmetrical Translation: Freedom & democracy.

"Suicide in prison" Asymmetrical translation: Act of War.

And * thinks Gitmo should close? He's the Decider, can't he just decide it so? Nope, doesn't work that way when you run it through the asymmetrical translator.

[Paulie]

27. Another term for 4th Generation Warfare

Basically no battle lines, no tanks, planes, little technology, hitting targets with little central coordination (cells), aka not fighting "fair" in the classical sense. Something our military is barely capable of handling because of all the dinosaur blood in the officer corps. See how scared they are, where suicides in a cage is warfare????

More here: http://www.d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm

[Up2Late]

17. BUT WAIT! Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move' (BBC News)

(I guess the "Acts of War" spin isn't working, so here's another "new speak" version) :crazy:

Sunday, 11 June 2006, 16:46 GMT 17:46 UK

Guantanamo suicides a 'PR move'

A top US official has described the suicides of three detainees at the US base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a "good PR move to draw attention".

Colleen Graffy told the BBC the deaths were part of a strategy and "a tactic to further the jihadi cause", but taking their own lives was unnecessary. But lawyers say the men who hanged themselves had been driven by despair.

A military investigation into the deaths is under way, amid growing calls for the centre to be moved or closed. Speaking to the BBC's Newshour programme, Ms Graffy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy, said the three men did not value their lives nor the lives of those around them.

Detainees had access to lawyers, received mail and had the ability to write to families, so had other means of making protests, she said, and it was hard to see why the men had not protested about their situation. The men, two Saudis and a Yemeni, were found unresponsive and not breathing by guards on Saturday morning, said officials.

They were in separate cells in Camp One, the highest security section of the prison.

(more at link)

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5069230.stm>

[yorkiemommie1]

19. ice water must run thru this 'diplomat's' veins

what an unspeakably crass statement!

[daleo]

24. Bobby Sands' hunger strike was a good p.r. move too

But he still ended up dead, and it was still an international embarrassment for the British government of the day.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. I heard this on the BBC (top story on radio, TV and website)

and it seemed bad enough. But I think the 'act of war' remark was even worse - unhinged right wing lunacy. So I suppose, compared to that, this is 'public diplomacy'. You're right, the first try must have had even the neocons thinking it was bullshit, so they've tried this. That doesn't stop this being bullshit too, of course.

[daleo]

20. Is this guy writing for The Onion?

Just when you think it can't get any stupider...

[Emillereid]

22. What is this guy smokin' ? The whole military machine is driven by mad men

They certainly don't inhabit the same reality as I live in.

[AzDar]

26. Jeezus. I'd guess you'd have to be lying to yourself daily, though

if you're going to be an AMERICAN, capable of running an illegal torture facility; which flies directly in the face of everything you supposedly stand for.
Deeelusional!

[Irreverend IX]

28. After five years spent running this torture camp...

The commander must have gone just as crazy as his charges.

[Martin Eden]

29. Is he brainwashed?

or trying to brainwash others.

[Gregorian]

31. Actually...

From another website I hang out on,

[truthisfreedom]

33. the sound of adults talking in a Peanuts cartoon...

mwaa mwaa mwaa mwaaaaaaaaa mwaaaaaaa mwaaaaaaa.

[lakercub]

34. Not a very effective act of war

About as effective as the protest by the believers of Brian killing themselves at Brian's cross in the "Life of Brian."

[gratuitous]

39. That occurred to me as well

Perhaps the admiral should kill himself, just to show the Guantanamo suicides that he's on to their little game. That would show them, eh?

[Canuckistanian]

42. LOL

Yeah, give them a little taste of their own medicine, eh?

[lakercub]

43. LOL

[NYC]

35. Insane.

...I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of asymmetrical warfare waged against us."

No matter how many times I read that sentence, I can't find the slightest shred of sense or reason in it. You would have to be insane to believe that.

[CatholicEdHead]

37. All I can say to this is

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

The reality based community is nowhere close to Gitmo.

[degreesofgray]

40. I gotta read

1984 again.

[dailykoff]

41. I'd add Heart of Darkness to the list

and maybe something by Kafka.

[Downtown Hound]

45. I wish I could have actually seen him say this

I've never actually witnessed someone literally talk out their ass before.

[IndianaGreen]

46. Why didn't the Nazis think of using such a novel excuse?

Can you imagine hearing Himmler saying that the Jews "killed themselves in an act of asymmetric warfare waged against us"?

[AlienGirl]

49. Suicide was punished in the camps

If one prisoner in a block committed suicide, the whole block would be punished.

Everything old is new again. :-(

Tucker

[clyrc]

47. I heard this too, and couldn't make any sense of it

Honestly, what sane person would say such a thing?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

48. How DARE they remove themselves from the misery and torture the U.S. has

devised for them!

This is an outrage!

This means WAR!

I wonder if seven years ago I could ever believe I would read something like this from an officer of the U.S. military.

[noonwitch]

54. Of course-The VP shot a guy in the face and the victim apologized to him!

That's unfortunately the people who are running our country right now.