Photos Indicate Civilians Slain Execution-Style

[Rose Siding]

WASHINGTON — Photographs taken by a Marine intelligence team have convinced investigators that a Marine unit killed as many as 24 unarmed Iraqis, some of them "execution-style," in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha after a roadside bomb killed an American in November, officials close to the investigation said Friday.

The pictures are said to show wounds to the upper bodies of the victims, who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back, congressional and defense officials said.

One government official said the pictures showed that infantry Marines from Camp Pendleton "suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results."
...
Both investigations are centered on a dozen Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. The battalion was on its third deployment to Iraq when the killings occurred.

Most of the fatal shots appear to have been fired by only a few of the Marines, possibly a four-man "fire team" led by a sergeant, said officials with knowledge of the investigation, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The same sergeant is suspected of filing a false report downplaying the number of Iraqis killed, saying they were killed by an insurgent's bomb and that Marines entered the Iraqis' homes in search of gunmen firing at them. All aspects of his account are contradicted by pictures, statements by Marines to investigators and an inspection of the houses involved, officials said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-marines27may27,0,7543928.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Bush and Blair to the Hague. n/t

[Pavulon]

4. Way OT

Like your quantum graphic.

That effect is the single most powerful discovery since proton proton fusion.

It really changes everything.

On topic.

It is a sad thing for this to happen. Everyone who serves knows the rules, knows how they can be broken for good, and then how they can be broken to disgrace themselves, the service, and the country.

This is murder when proven in court martial.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

21. It really changes everything

physical universe for the quantum hologram it really is.

[The Doctor.]

27. And we built it....

at some point in time.

As for the marines who did this, life.
The Commander-in-Chimp, the Hague.

[Astrad]

2. Why don't they call this what it truly is - Terrorism. n/t

[mike_c]

13. yep-- collective punishment = terrorism-- ironically this is what Saddam..

...is on trial for right now. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[iamjoy]

3. How Horrible!

They shouldn't be showing these pictures or reporting about our troops doing bad things because it will hurt the war effort and turn Iraqis against us.

Just Pretend It's All Okay.

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

5. They should be released at trial.

To ensure the parties get a fair trial they should remain classified until discovery.

[IndianaGreen]

8. The public has the right to know about war crimes

which fall under a difference jurisprudence than American courts. These Marines should be tried at The Hague, together with their commanders, and the generals and civilian leaders responsible for the policies that led to this massacre, one of many already committed in Iraq.

[Pavulon]

10. Incorrect

They are not captured by an enemy force. They will be tried under ucmj.

If someone can prove a wide ranging conspiracy that is fine. Different subject.

But in reality this situation is a low level problem. There are no standing orders to kill civilians once in custody.

I do not know the roe in iraq for marines but am sure these idiots broke them.

[IndianaGreen]

14. There is no written order by Hitler ordering the Holocaust

yet such a thing did happen. We have the US admitting the deaths of 29 prisoners while in custody in Iraq. How many more were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan that our government has not admitted?

[Pavulon]

17. Actually

there are written orders by german military commanders ordering just such an act. The DIFFERENCE is that they were tried by a victorious party.

Slobodan Milosevic was tried by parties outside the former yugoslav nation. War crimes trials are held by nations against major figures, not squad level soldiers. There are exceptions to this ut this is generally how war crimes trials work.

I am sure plenty of people have been killed. Each a criminal act.

The reality is these people will be tried under the ucmj (spell checker likes "cum" for this term).

In reality the sentence they receive would be harsher under ucmj than a Hague trial. It would be much quicker as well.

[IndianaGreen]

18. We can't trust our military to clean its own act

anymore than we can expect the Wehrmacht to clean theirs. From the Commander-in-Chief on down, they are all complicit in a war of aggression and in a brutal occupation of a country that did not attack the US. Our military will portray this incident an aberration, and the Marines involved as criminals, when in reality this is but the tip of the iceberg of a policy of oppression and genocide.

[petgoat]

26. "How many more?" Have you heard of the "Convoy of Death"?

in Afghanistan? Prisoners were driven four days across the desert
in sealed container trucks.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3267.htm

(Or so goes the story. I can't claim to have verified it.)

[The Magistrate]

42. It Happened, Sir

But it was not conducted by U.S. soldiers, and the handful present had no power to stop it.

[Catrina]

50. Gen. Miller told his troops to 'treat the Iraqis like dogs' ~ after being

transferred from Guantanamo Bay to Iraq. He went on to explain his reasoning for this. True, he is just one general, but he was not publicly reprimanded by his CIC so it has to be assumed his policies were not even frowned upon, let alone condemned by this administration.

Even after Abu Ghraib no orders came from this WH to stop torture. In fact, many high-ranking officials, including the VP, silenced anyone who attempted to address the issue. The American people deserve better than what they have tolerated from this administration. This country is fast becoming one of the most hated in the world. Anyone who loves their country, will demand that this horrible era end and that those respondible for any crimes committed in the name of the US, be prosecuted.

What we really need is a complete investigation into this entire war and the policies that resulted in Abu Ghraib, Fallujah, (the general who was on the ground before the order came to attack Fallujah has said that he disagreed with the decision for obvious reasons, but the decision came straight from the White House and he had no choice other than to follow orders) and the widespread corruption in Iraq. All these allegations need an investigation.

This war was based on lies to begin with, and still no one has been held accountable for that. As for this terrible tragedy, it is heartbreaking. The reasons given for this war, from the WMD lie to the 'liberation' lie have all fallen apart, one after the other. What was the real reason for this war? American citizens who paid for it deserve an answer.

[NorthernSpy]

6. do I have to support THESE troops?

:puke:

[IndianaGreen]

9. Some of these Marines were on their THIRD combat tour!

One must question the insanity of putting troubled and stressed out troops in a situation such as Iraq.

[mike_c]

15. yet has anyone seriously suggested that they might have...

...engaged in this sort of behavior before? One of the most troubling aspects of the Habitha episode is that it's being treated as though it is an anomalous event. I suspect that collective punishment of civilians, random murder, etc is SOP for the U.S. military in Iraq. This sort of behaviour is likely one of the reasons there is an active insurgency.

[IndianaGreen]

19. Don't forget Negroponte's Salvador solution when he was ambassador

It was the US that trained the death squads in Iraq.

[uppityperson]

25. 3rd deployment? Poor people

A good percentage of them would have to have problems by their 3rd tour. War is hell.

[Bucky]

52. I hope that's not sarcasm. Depite being war criminals, they're victims too

If they executed civilians, obviously they should be punished for murder. But let's not pretend that any normal perceptions of reality could survive three tours thru Mr Bush's custom-built hell. This is just the heighest reach of the insanity we've seen so far. More atrocities will certainly emerge. This isn't only the fault of the troops pulling the triggers; the situation that created these war crimes is to blame too, as are the senior officers who didn't make sure their men knew exactly what was prohibited in the war zone.

[NorthernSpy]

45. LOTS of people do multiple tours...

... without taking it upon themselves to launch seek-and-destroy missions against grannies and toddlers.

This was a crime beyond the general inhumanity of war, and those who did these things need to PAY.

[Bucky]

51. Yes, the sergeant & his 4-man fire team should pay. But don't stop there!

Right now it looks like most, if not all, of the civilian execution-murders were the work of a four man squad. If I were a betting man, I'd lay odds that the convictions will stop with these four guys, plus maybe one token officer--no one above the rank of captain. It'll stop there. But it shouldn't.

Jeezus this is sickening. Many hated us before; they'll all want us gone then. And then they'll start plotting their revenge. This shit will almost certainly come back to our shores. The NSA-state is self perpetuating and self justifying. God help us now.

[Toots]

7. Do you think Sen Inhofe is "Outraged by the Outrage"?

Probably all Republicans are "Outraged by the outrage" How dare they let those pictures out. They must hate America. They need to put those people who spoke out about this into prison forever, don't ya think Mr. Republican...

[UpInArms]

11. "The battalion was on its third deployment to Iraq"

The destruction of the lives of everyone involved is horrifying.

:cry:

Weeping for the losses that never stop.

[Nashyra]

16. I am outraged

I am outraged that it happened, at the grief for the Irqai people, at the grief and destruction of our troops families. 3rd deployment, no excuse. You have to ask why were they there in the first place, human nature has a breaking point. I consider myself a moral person, honest and don't misbehave too badly most of the time. I do not know how much I could mentally take if say for instance if me and my fellow duer's were sent, resent and resent into harms way to protect our ideals as explained to us as our job and we kept losing our fellow friends. Not an excuse, Bush and Rumsfielf should be held accountable. Can you imagine the backlash if these Marines are sentenced to death for murder by the radical rightwing.

Our military is stretched thin, they are at a breaking point. The pentagon says no, just find the bad apple and everyone else is gunghoe. Well if there are more and more bad apples it is a fairly good indication that the tree is bad and needs to come down.

Support our troops? You bet, it was not the troops who committed this atrocity it is and continues to be a few, and most at the top of this administration. Right or wrong when you continue to see your fellow friends and partners blown apart the breaking point is different for everyone. No excuse, only castotrophic disaster for all involved.

On another note for those of us who continue to disparage our enlisted men and women why don't we go enlist or go in as officers and try to create change?

[atreides1]

34. I'm Outraged Too

"Can you imagine the backlash if these Marines are sentenced to death for murder by the radical right-wing?"

If they are guilty of a capital offense and the death penalty is the appropriate sentence then so be it, I won't be shedding any tears about it!

"Our military is stretched thin, they are at a breaking point."

Still not an excuse for what has been done.

"Support our troops? You bet, it was not the troops who committed this atrocity"

Blind support still makes you blind. The administration is guilty of sending these men and women into harms way, but it's the troops who are dropping bombs, pulling triggers, and firing artillery.
War crimes have been going on since this started, it's just that everyone looked the other way when they occurred. I guess that's what the Abu Ghraib bunch thought, and if the photos had not surfaced
they would have gotten away with it, the Army took hostages, which is against Geneva, and the unit was praised for it.

We can support them best by letting them know that what they are doing is morally wrong, not by patting them on the back and saying "good job", that's the problem. We have to explain to them that they are not doing this for our protection or to guarantee our freedom, or to bring freedom to the people of Iraq. We have to tell them that they are doing this for BushCo, to fill the coffers of the defense contractors, to give power to a man who wants his own empire.

We have to tell them that they are fighting and dying for nothing, that's the best support we can give them, the truth.

I'm a Desert Storm vet, I did my bit and I'm now too old to enlist, I already checked into it. For the reason you stated, to try to create change.

[Barrett808]

29. I recall when Rumsfeld publicly ridiculed the idea of 3rd tours...

...and of course, now we have fourth tours...

[JohnnyRingo]

12. Since Repubs wax endlessly about "winning the war" in Iraq

and we already own Baghdad and all the other major cities, "winning" is apparently a matter of acceptance of our troops presence.

Certainly, this is a major setback in that endeavor.

How long before an Iraqi leader with his own security make a very public demand for an exodus of US troops? That'll be a tight spot for the White House.

[peacetalksforall]

20. Five? Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Rice, Bolton - responsible - the buck

stops there and with the barons, corporations, stockholders, media, military, and reverends, who support PNAC.

[classysassy]

40. The wheels of justice

grind slowly,but grind they do,and one fine day all five of those bloody criminals will get their just reward.(it want be the medal of freedom).

[Catchawave]

22. Remember My Lai ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

:cry: this stupid "war" is looking more like Viet Nam every day.

[Voltaire99]

47. "The Jungian thing, sir."

Colonel: Marine, what is that button on your body armor?
Private Joker: A peace symbol, sir.
Colonel: Where'd you get it?
Private Joker: I don't remember, sir.
Colonel: What is that you've got written on your helmet?
Private Joker: "Born to Kill", sir.
Colonel: You write "Born to Kill" on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
Private Joker: No, sir.
Colonel: You'd better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant shit on you.
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Colonel: Now answer my question or you'll be standing tall before the man.
Private Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Colonel: The what?
Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
Colonel: Whose side are you on, son?
Private Joker: Our side, sir.
Colonel: Don't you love your country?
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Colonel: Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Colonel: Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.
Private Joker: Aye-aye, sir.

--Kubrick, Herr and Hasford, "Full Metal Jacket" (1987)

[Drum]

23. ...third deployment...

This is an aspect of things that really can reflect on the top decision-makers, and will harken all the way back to the Shinseki controversy before the US rolled into Iraq. The fact that our men and women in uniform have had to endure these endless deployments, stop-loss orders, pushed again and again into this lion's den is one that reverberates up the chain to Rummy and all of the other "slam-dunk"ers.

We cannot overemphasize the fact that chain-of-command has put our troops in a very bad position over there....

[BigDDem]

24. Another tragic step towards

"winning the hearts and minds."

[MindPilot]

28. I really don't get how this is more an "atrocity" than dropping a bomb

A few stressed-out Marines waste some Iraqis at point-blank range and that's a crime, but a pilot levels a city block from 45,000 feet and that's called good shootin'.

Is it because the pilot is an officer? Anyone who has been in the military knows that officers are gods who are incapable of wrong-doing and consider enlisted men to be their slaves and lackeys. You can bet your ass that some officer ordered those men in to kill those kids and they are sitting back and laughing at they misery they cause. Officers love that shit--it's what they live for.

[speedoo]

30. That's bullshit.

"Officers love that shit--it's what they live for."

And your basis for this statement?

How the hell do you know what happened in this case?

[MindPilot]

32. Personal experience.

I did my time in the Navy and was in Vietnam 72-73. My dad did 25 years in the Air Force.

I don't know exactly what happened in this case, of course I'm speculating. But I do know that in the military no matter where you are or what you're doing there is always an officer waiting and watching--just looking for the chance to bring a fresh dose of hell into some enlisted man's life.

[speedoo]

33. My personal experience says you are wrong,

I was an officer and served with a fine group of officers on a destroyer. Every one of us respected and appreciated the sailors in our divisions.

Your generalized statements could not be more wrong. They are ridiculous.

[MindPilot]

38. Of course I'm wrong. I'm the enlisted man.

sir.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paulie]

41. What was that?

Now I see how crew cuts can be done without shears. :hi: :toast:

[Voltaire99]

46. Great rejoinder. (nt)

[Catch22Dem]

35. I think you're wrong

I think, unlike Abu Ghraib, this was likely a pissed off, stressed out, crazy NCO running the show. I also think your generalization of officers sitting around laughing about killing is complete fucking bullshit. My 8 years in the USAF says otherwise.

[ForrestGump]

55. Same kind of paradox as wars having 'rules'

It's all insane.

But there is a difference.

Still, aerial or other attacks on general civilian targets -- the classic example is the area bombing started by the RAF in WWII that eventually led to the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo and, of course, the two atomic bombs in Japan -- are acts of terrorism no matter how you cut it. The fact that organized military hierarchies order it make it no less so. Bomber Harris, the stiff-upper-lip f***wit who really got the jolly old RAF into carpet bombing Jerry civvies, stated in so many words that the object was to terrorize and demoralize.

'Collateral damage' has become a cold and hollow euphemism, but there remains a difference between a certain number of civilians dying during attacks on military or enemy infrastructure targets and intentionally executing prisoners, civilian or military.

[Hepburn]

31. And somehow...

...some people go right on saying that Iraq is so much better off with Saddam gone. What the hell makes these marines any different?

This is so shocking to me...but I guess I should not be surprised. It is the atmosphere, IMO, that BushCo fostered all along. Torture is OK if done by the US. So, I guess if their "fearless leader" thinks so, then what is to keep some from acting like this?

I am so saddened by this....and feel so disgraced as a citizen of the US that this was done in our name.

This entire administration should rot in hell. They sent the message that this was OK....so now what???? Yes, of course, the marines that did this should be punished....but what about those who led them to feel this was OK? That it is part of the "War on Terra." It's only those "little brown people"...what the hell do they matter. So of "them" blew up some soldiers, so they ALL should pay.

This is sickeing...absolutely sickening. War is evil and IMO this is a prime example of WHY it is so evil.

:grr:

[sarcasmo]

36. More War crimes by our current Theocracy.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DiscussTheTruth]

43. Battle Fatigue and Dehumanization

Any army ends up doing these things over time if we read a bit of history. In war Americans are no better than any other human being when confronted with survival, death and dehumanization. The longer they are over there the worse it will get. If we leave a bunch of gangsters will take over, though I am not sure it's much better with us there. Even after we leave those people will suffer greatly because some crazy man will likely gain control.

[dailykoff]

44. No excuses for genocide.

This is a professional army and these guys are paid killers. If they can't follow the Geneva convention when they kill they should be prosecuted for murder in a civil court along with their superiors.

[ckramer]

48. Revealed: how US marines massacred 24

One portrays an Iraqi mother and young child, kneeling on the floor, as if in prayer. They have been shot dead at close range.

The pictures show other victims, shot execution-style in the head and chest in their homes. An American government official said they revealed that the marines involved had “suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership”.

The killings are emerging as the worst known American atrocity of the Iraq war. At least seven women and three children were among those killed. Witness accounts obtained by The Sunday Times suggest the toll of children may be as high as six. “This one is ugly,” a US military official said.

link

[Xeric]

49. Don't say

Oh well, these things happen in war.
Don't say it's not the troops who did this fault, it's George Bush.
Don't say those who refuse to wave their little flags and wear the "support the troops" stickers on their SUV's are the reason Democrats keep losing.
Just don't.

[Supersedeas]

53. lots of execution style killings in Iraq, Baghdad and elsewhere

[scarface2004]

54. i don t support the troops!!

never have, never will. why don't they just tell bush to go fuck himself and refuse orders...they are not legal!!