Animal rights camp to export terror

[T_i_B]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/20/nanim20.xml

British animal rights activists are planning to use a training camp next month to export their violent tactics to Europe and beyond.

The AR2006 camp will be held in an undisclosed location on the weekend of June 23 and will feature classes in potentially lethal physical techniques that are described as "self-defence".

"The UK is the centre for this kind of activism," said a spokesman for the pressure group Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty (SHAC). "Everyone around the world looks to us for inspiration." The group has held camps in Britain for the past two years but this is the first when the focus will be on attracting foreign activists who will carry the message of violence around the world.

As well as "self-defence" classes, they are likely to discuss how to conduct mailing campaigns, including targeting shareholders, as in the recent letters sent to GlaxoSmithKline's investors. The NETCU spokesman said yesterday that the camp had not been a police matter in the past. However, businessmen are concerned that Britain is becoming the centre of a violent, intimidatory movement that is beginning to spread overseas.

[beingthere]

1. "Businessmen" are concerned - must be bad. n/t

[Algorem]

2. could test Tasers on businessmen

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1148113960243910.xml&coll=2v

Pigs used to test Tasers' effect on heart

Saturday, May 20, 2006
Sarah Treffinger
Plain Dealer Reporter

...The Clinic led a study to find out how the heart reacts when police use stun guns on people. Some reports have linked Tasers to deaths, particularly when the target is on drugs. Amnesty International has urged suspension of Tasers.


A grant from Taser International Inc. paid for the study, which is not the first to test stun guns on pigs. When it comes to heart research, swine often serve as stunt doubles for humans.

So, 13 pigs slipped into slumber with general anesthesia. Five received high doses of cocaine through an intravenous injection.

Despite expectations that coke-addled pigs would be more vulnerable to a heart irregularity when stunned, the scientists found the opposite. The drugged pigs, which had no heart disease, were better protected, able to withstand eight times the normal stun gun electrical current. Sober pigs could take only four times the normal jolt...

[Coventina]

3. More of the "animal rights = terror meme"

:eyes:

Bullshit. Utter bullshit.

[Catchawave]

10. Especially this part of the article:

"The camp is advertised on animal activist websites but police say there is little they can do against a private meeting of individuals."

WTF? :rofl:

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coventina]

20. Please supply links to murders committed by animal rights activists

I would like to read this documentation.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Fine.

http://www.animalrights.net/archives/year/2003/000282.html


Please let me know when you tire of supporting murderous arsonist fuckwits.

[livinginphotographs]

29. Will do.

As soon as you let me know when you tire of supporting corporations who profit off of poisoning people and the environment.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. Blah blah blah.

Simple question for you:

Was the murder of Pim Fortuyn acceptable?

And where the fuck do you get off claiming to know ANYTHING about what I fucking support or don't support? Just because I oppose people who threaten the families of scientists who test on animals? Get a fucking grip. Jesus Christ.

[livinginphotographs]

35. No problem.

Grip gotten. You should protest outside of my house. Hold a sign or something. See if it works. If you change my mind that way, I owe you a coke.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

39. Hold a sign? That's rich.

Nobody'd have a problem with the animal rights activists if they were simply holding up sings. It's the fucking ARSON that pisses people off, dig?

[LeftyMom]

47. Bullshit.

The Oxford research lab people are trying to limit lawful protestors to one hour a week, 12 people maximum, no amplfied noise, etc. They apparently have a hell of a problem with lawful protestors holding signs and making noise.

[Catchawave]

57. I love it.....thanks for the update....

makes me wonder what Oxford's hiding? You know those pesky protestors might draw some serious investigative reporting...LOL.

[Coventina]

I don't support the murder of anybody

According to CNN, Fortuyn's killer believed he was acting on behalf of Muslims:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/03/27/netherlands.fortuyn.trial/

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

40. I don't support the murder of ANYONE.

Which is why I don't support the extreme wing of the animal rights movement, even though I support PETA and other similar organisations.

[Coventina]

44. Glad to see that we agree.....So who's been murdered by AR activists?

Pim's killer stated it was Pim's anti-Muslim views that prompted him to pull the trigger.

[Catchawave]

55. LOL...Animalrights.net ??!!!

Is NOT an animal rights organization, it's a group that dedicates itself to smearing animal protectionists with animal exploitive profit industries.

Brian Carnell is a lying scumbag, and that was an opinion article. Volkert van der Graaf was NOT an animal rights activist, simply a sicko with an ax to grind.

[LeftyMom]

23. Yep, none of us pay any attention to the AR movement

:eyes:

Let me give you a hint- nobody's *ever* been killed in the name of AR anywhere.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. Right.

Tell that to Pim Fortuyn.

Oh wait, you can't. Because he's fucking dead.

[LeftyMom]

What does that have to do with AR?

Not a damn thing.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

33. Right.

It has absolutely nothing to do with animal rights. And Bush really wants freedom for Iraqis.

[LeftyMom]

36. Hey, the guy who killed him said himself that that wasn't his motivation

Stop telling people who know much better than you what the AR movement is all about- it's a waste of our time and your keystrokes.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. I'll keep that in mind...

...next time someone throws a molotov cocktail through the window of the Oxford animal research centre. I love it when that happens. It's like Christmas for assholes.

[LeftyMom]

41. There's a hell of a difference between property damage and murder

and in the case of arsons of animal research and exploitation facilities, they've always been timed to prevent risk to human life and deliberately so.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. Aww, isn't that sweet?

I'll remember that when they come to burn down my house.

[LeftyMom]

46. Do you live in a vivisection lab or something?

Jesus, get a grip.

[struggle4progress]

56. "He said he had .. to stop Fortuyn from .. his anti-immigration agenda."

Staff and agencies
Tuesday April 15, 2003

.. Volkert van der Graaf, 33, confessed to shooting Fortuyn outside a radio station on May 6 2002, just days before elections were held.

He said he had done it to stop Fortuyn from gaining power and carrying out his anti-immigration agenda ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,937416,00.html

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Tires]

83. i like this line:

"The AR2006 camp will be held in an undisclosed location on the weekend of June 23 and will feature classes in potentially lethal physical techniques that are described as "self-defence".

undisclosed?? potentially lethal?? well certainly we must kill those people before they kill us! :sarcasm:

it's been a long time since i've seen so many fearmongering loaded codewords in one article....they only used to describe Muslim mosques or Black nationalist organizations that way *sigh* the only phrase missing is "jew-financed godless anarchro-communists"

[Odin2005]

4. You guys are defending these creeps?

Being an eco-terrorists doesn't make you any less terrorist.

[Catchawave]

5. Did you see the "external" links....?

http://www.abpi.org.uk/press/press_releases_06/060515.asp

This is pharma bullsh*t propaganda.

[Odin2005]

6. I wouldn't be so sure.

I have heard many stories of brain scientists who require animals for thier expirements are often in constant fear of being attacked by PETA and related crazies. I have no problem with using animals in expirements, if helping lots of people with a certain disease requires sacrificing a few non-human animals, so be it.

[Catchawave]

7. "Peta and related crazies" ?

Source?

[Odin2005]

16. It was in a book on the science of the human brain for a layman readership

I can't rember the name of the book. Basically PETA and company were harrasing experimental psycologists and neurologists who used rhesus monkies in thier experiments.

[Catchawave]

52. A book title would be helpful,

as there are many publishers who print books that favor vivisection and protect the "frankenstein" scientists who blame animal protectionists for their failures.

When I see anything pointing to "animal rights crazies", I see red flags. Also, PETA is not a radical fringe group. You may want to visit www.peta.org and learn more about them :hi:

[pooja]

9. I AGREE

I think organizations like PETA and such give a lot of people the mentality that anyone who cares about the environment is extreme and that they all live in trees. It is never ok to assume violence in the name of a cause. What do we say when extremist right wingers bomb abortion clinics and assasinate dr.s. We call them nuts and out of control.

[LeftyMom]

28. You are arare there's more to AR than PETA, right?

For that matter, point me toward somebody who have been killed by any AR group. Hint: there isn't anybody.

[idgiehkt]

48. PETA is not that extreme

they are middle of the road.

these things from the article were funny
terrorist activities:
"letters sent to GlaxoSmithKline's investors"

ooooh, are you skeered yet?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

30. It isn't PETA.

PETA, despite its obvious faults, is a legitmate organisation. Even though I disagree with just about everything they stand for, I respect their ability to take a stand (sometimes) without resorting to the sorts of tactics employed by the extreme wing of the animal rights movement. Here in the UK, animal researchers are subject to daily threats on their lives, arson attacks, and many other sorts of unpleasantness. It distresses me to see this sort of nonsense supported by DUers.

[K-W]

12. Being an activist doesnt make you a terrorist. EOM

[Robb]

14. True

...but not all terrorists are freedom fighters. ;)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. Oh, waaah.

Being a fucking arsonist, and advocating for the murder of scientists who do research on animals makes you, if not a terrorist, a fucking wanker.

[livinginphotographs]

22. That's right! Wankers!

They should stick to their free-speech zones and holding signs like good sheeple.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. Actually, I'd be happy...

...if they stopped commiting arson and threatening violence, but that's just me.

[livinginphotographs]

31. Good point.

We should invade somebody.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[livinginphotographs]

38. Thanks man.

We'll name a liberated lab rat after you in tribute.

By the way, you're pretty good at shilling for the anti-animal industries. You should really see if they could take you on as a consultant. Otherwise, you're just doing it for free.

[struggle4progress]

13. GASP! ".. they are likely to discuss .. mailing campaigns .."

Next, they'll be slandering beef ...

[livinginphotographs]

18. BOOGA BOOGA! TERRA!!!!!!!

Governments which allow the animal industries to rape the environment and poison people are bigger "eco-terrorists" than any of these people.

Have you cashed your CCF paycheck yet?

[Coventina]

21. Yep, when the entire ecosystem crashes, people will learn who the real

"terrorists" are/were.

[LeftyMom]

24. "ecoterrorist" is a right wing meme

The term was actually thought up by some guy at a right wing think tank (Ron Arnold at the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise.)

[struggle4progress]

58. Accusations in the wingnut Telegraph don't carry much weight with me

[arwalden]

8. What Kooks!

This doesn't surprise me at all.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

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[Catchawave]

11. The AR2006 "camp" info:

Oh, and it's being held in Alexandria, Virginia...

http://www.arconference.org/program.htm

[idgiehkt]

49. wow, look at that list of names

that is pretty amazing...it's not going on too far from here either...hmmm, maybe I could go!

[Catchawave]

59. It's an amazing experience !

Thanks for reminding me, I'll post the link to the Activist Forum :hi:

[flvegan]

76. That's not the same conference.

The US AR2006 isn't the one they're talking about in the article.

[Catchawave]

112. I posted the international one too...

..somewhere here, sorry, been tap dancing to bullets :hi: The link is in the original article in the OP....sigh.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

42. On the whole, I'd take this with a grain of salt.

The Telegraph is a somewhat conservative newspaper, which has a vested interest in discrediting anything not associated with the Tories. However, the bad deeds done by animal rights activists in the UK can't be overlooked. This article strikes me as two groups of morons beating each other about the head with sticks.

[idgiehkt]

50. well, the language it used isn't objective.

my BS-ometer went off the scale after the first sentence. The Brits do put their 'danglies' out when it comes to animal rights, though, I have to admit. Guess cause we got all the leftover Nazis in america's why were so far behind.

[noel adamson]

45. Either way it is a smear attack on all forms of dissent and...

...their first move is always to attack the strongest qualities of their dissenters. Attacking the benevolent nature of all people with compassion for the well being of animals by singling these people out in this case or using "Homeland (in)Security" to spy on Quakers for anti-war activities are just a couple of current examples. If they cannot find anyone extreme enough in this or that group they desire to discredit they send in agent provocateurs and incite vulnerable members to violence or other disreputable actions or simply fabricate evidence. This is SOP for the fascists and is well documented as an ongoing activity. COINTELPRO was (is?) one such program. ( http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm ) You can bet there have been advances in this activity. Smearing environmentalists as "terrorists" for acts of vandalism and trespassing comited by a small percentage falls into this category and calling out Homeland (in)Security to hunt down Texas Democrats for avoiding a most corrupt gerrymander vote the Texas version.

At the other end of the spectrum we see anti-abortionists who murder doctors and homophobic nut cases who murder homosexuals and then pickett their funerals to taunt the friends and relatives who attend their funerals. And don't forget the amphetamine soaked racists who blew up the federal building in Oklahoma city. All of these groups are far more vicious and far closer to being typical of the ideology of their entire group than tree huggers, animal rights activists or Texas Democrats are of theirs . They are the Bush base and they are blindly legislating their hatred into law and inflicting their utterly brutal immorality on the rest of the world while we are left undefended against guys with box cutters.

[pooja]

53. IT IS STILL THE WRONG WAY TO DO IT

VIOLENCE IS NEVER OK NO MATTER WHO COMMITS IT. THE IDEA OF PRESERVING NATURAL HABITATS IS CATCHING ON. PEOPLE WOULD BE WILLING TO DRIVE ENVIRO-CARS OR TAKE PUBLIC TRANS IF THEY WERE MORE WIDELY AVAILABLE AND AFFORDABLE. THERE'S A REASON THAT THE FLORIDA COASTLINE IS OIL-RIG FREE. PRESENTING RATIONAL, EDUCATIONAL IDEALS IS FAR MORE SUPREME THAN LOWERING ONE'S SELF TO BREAKING THE LAW.

[arwalden]

60. I'm Not Sure How People Expect To Win Sympathy For Their Cause...

... when they attack innocent people, destroy private property, vandalize, assault, harass, stalk, and slander/libel others. Or... when they provide aid and comfort for those organizations and individuals who DO.

It sounds to me like a way to do nothing more than energize the base (and bring in more donations to feed itself) but it doesn't really accomplish much in the way of actually swaying more people to support whatever cause they have. What ordinarily reasonable and rational person would support any group like that?

Playing to the minority base isn't really a way to win the "swing vote" (so to speak). Groups like that will always be viewed as fringe kooks. They end up being their OWN worst enemies, and wonder why nobody takes them seriously. They just can't understand why they are viewed as domestic terrorists.

Well, duh!

“Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we’d be against it.”
PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk (Vogue, Sept '89)

Oh, that Ingrid! The true face of compassion.

[Catchawave]

61. Way to go....

A 17 year old article, and an out of context quote at that!

Just wondering, do you think I'm a kook, afterall I go to war protests :shrug:

[arwalden]

62. Well... I Didn't Realize It Was About YOU.

<< A 17 year old article, and an out of context quote at that! >>

I find it difficult to imagine ANY context in which a heartless statement like that could be rationalized away. But if you think that it's unfair, or inaccurate, feel free to make corrections or to provide the context you think would better serve the "cause".


<< Just wondering, do you think I'm a kook, afterall I go to war protests >>

Well, frankly I don't do a lot of thinking about YOU, so I don't recall having an opinion one way or the other about YOU. What makes you think I have ANY opinion about YOU. Is this thread all about YOU?

Why do you even CARE what I think about YOU? Are you trying to bait me into making a personal attack or saying something about you that's personally insulting?

I don't know what your behavior is like at war protests. Do you assault old ladies?

[Catchawave]

77. Dissent isn't terrorism m'dear.....

You seem to have lost the point.

But thanks for proving why Democrats ~or~ animal protectionists are never taken seriously.

:hi:

[livinginphotographs]

78. Of course dissent is terrorism.

The corporatists would rather you stay in your free-speech zone and hold your sign. That means a lot to animals being tortued in laboratories and farms.

[arwalden]

81. "Because A Lab Rat Is Equal To A Human Being With AIDS"

:eyes:

Save the lab rats! No cure can be worth all that! Rats are EQUAL to humans!

[Catchawave]

84. Shhhh, don't give the corporatists any

ideas. Oh wait, the Oxford Lab is already doing that :rofl:

[arwalden]

80. Assaulting Old Ladies In Fur Coats Isn't "Dissent" ... M'Dear

<< M'Dear >>

Oh brother. :eyes:

<< You seem to have lost the point. >>

Other than "click...the...link" you haven't really made any noteworthy points. How can I "lose" something that that hasn't been made?? :eyes:

<< But thanks for proving why Democrats ~or~ animal protectionists are never taken seriously. >>



It's all my fault, eh? Really? I don't know about Democrats, but as far as "never being taken seriously" it's pretty clear to me that the "animal protectionists" are doing a good job of THAT monumental achievement ALL BY THEMSELVES.

It doesn't speak very well of someone (or an organization) that tries to pin their OWN FLAWS on others.

It's the smart people (or smart organizations) that will figure it out when their 'strategery' isn't working... and they'll try something different. The not-so-smart ones keep doing the same thing over and over, they get the SAME results, but they expect something different. Not smart.

Blaming their own failure on their critics? Also not smart. :hi:

[Catchawave]

85. Thanks sweetie....

I knew you'd understand <snork>

But obviously, your use of the term "kooks" is okie-dokie :shrug:

BTW, not one mainstream animal protection organization uses
"17 year old out of context" quotes on their web pages.

Update, please :hi:

[arwalden]

87. I wouldn't be too sure of that if I were you.

<< But obviously, your use of the term "kooks" is okie-dokie >>

Learn to cope. :eyes:

<< BTW, not one mainstream animal protection organization uses
"17 year old out of context" quotes on their web pages. >>

I can't blame them... especially NOT the ugly quotes that show the TRUE FACE of the cold dark heartlessness. It's those unguarded and unscripted moments like that one that often do the most harm (or did she intend to say that?)

<< Update, please >>

It's not very clear what you're trying to say there. :shrug: She said what she said... I'm not making it up.

It give a very frightening look inside her twisted little mind.

[Catchawave]

89. The quote you referred to was

"out of context"....please post the entire statement. Thanks :hi:

[arwalden]

91. I'm Not Your Boy-Friday. Do Your Own Research.

:hi:

[Catchawave]

109. The quote you referred to was

17 years old ! Out of context and hateful :hi:

[arwalden]

119. Yes, That Quote Was Full Of Hate.

A frightening peek inside the hateful and twisted mind of Newkirk. Seventeen years old, and she's still as hateful as ever. What a legacy! What a testament to a cold harsh woman. A monument to compassion!

[livinginphotographs]

63. Yeah, that damn Nat Turner.

Useless. He should've just stuck to his slogans and free-speech zones.

And I'll go on record - even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, I'd be against it. And I've said the same numerous times to my friend who has HIV.

[arwalden]

64. Like I Said Before...

... such cruel sentiments only hurt your own cause. Please continue to repeat them... loudly... I think that everyone should know exactly what this is all about.

But wait... how is it that you're willing to quote Newkirk and proudly go on record claim her words as your own (or stand by them) while... just moments ago... someone ELSE chastised me for quoting her "out-of-context".

I don't understand... it's outdated and "out-of-context" when *I* say it, but it's A-OKAY when YOU say it?

:silly:

Go figure! :shrug:

[livinginphotographs]

65. Newkirk may have been out of context, I'm not.

I don't claim to defend PETA. As someone said upthread, there is much more to AR than PETA (in fact, PETA is pretty derided in AR circles).

I claim that it's wrong to sacrifice one sentient creature for another. That's why I oppose any animal testing, even if it lead to a cure for AIDS (which it won't).

AIDS is a horrible disease. I've watched it suck the life out of my friend, so I'm not heartless when it comes to the suffering of someone sick with HIV. I also don't believe that animals should be tortured in the distant hope that it produces a cure. To believe otherwise is speciesism at its most blatant.

I'll await your snarky reply, complete with stupid emoticons.

[arwalden]

66. "I'll await your snarky reply, complete with stupid emoticons."

:rofl:

<< AIDS is a horrible disease. I've watched it suck the life out of my friend, >>

Why should you care about her? She's only human. :shrug: No species is greater than another. The life of a mouse is equal to the life of a human being, eh? Is that about it? Does that sum it all up?

<< so I'm not heartless when it comes to the suffering of someone sick with HIV. >>

Flip-flop! :silly:

<< I also don't believe that animals should be tortured in the distant hope that it produces a cure. >>

But, uh... you're "not heartless"... oh that's right, never mind. She's only human. :eyes:

<< To believe otherwise is speciesism at its most blatant. >>

Speciesism? :eyes: Oh brother! -- Hey... look around, which "species" is in charge?

[livinginphotographs]

67. Just to let you know

I'd respond to your post if it made any fucking sense.

[arwalden]

68. You Would? Would You? --- But You DID Respond...

<< I'd respond to your post if it made any fucking sense. >>

... you DID, Blanche... you DID!!! :silly:

:rofl:

[livinginphotographs]

70. Quality over quantity.

Keep that in mind when posting. :eyes:

[arwalden]

71. Reality Over Fantasy...

You keep THAT in mind when posting. :eyes:

[livinginphotographs]

72. Oh blow it out your ass.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[arwalden]

75. Oh My Word! -- ROFL!!

[Catchawave]

54. Great post noel....

...and welcome to DU :toast:

[noel adamson]

110. Thank you wave...here is a video of another "terrorist" group; Food ...

...Not Bombs http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13098.htm

I didn't mean to start a melee...just to say that while I'm not Civil Disobedience's biggest fan it is exaggerated all out of proportion to tar everyone else and when they cannot find any disobedient dissenters they force the issue or simply fabricate. There comes a point however when dissent having been squelched entirely it is time to take more drastic action. This is the same time that people seldom do. I doubt Ghandi would have gotten as far before WW2 or if he had been in pre WW2 Germany... Some did though, the Jehovah's Witness for one (he he)they were, of course marched off to Guantanamo, er, Auschwitz.

Drastic sentences handed down against environmentalists for trespassing and vandalism ( http://freefreenow.org/index.html ) are obscene; it is vandalism and trespassing not terror, and it is with an altruistic motive, right or wrong, not criminal intent. I have been sitting in on a couple of SLAPPs ( http://www.casp.net/survival.html ) here and feel a growing sense of outrage. This malicious litigation does more to justify tree sitting and other relatively benign activity than condemn it in my mind. Pacific Lumber, with it's fat wallet, is undefeatable in the local courts, however their big bankroll failed when they financed an unsuccessful attempted "grass roots recall" of the DA who had brought very reasonable charges against them. They exert undue influence over local media and many facets of local life. They are headed up by a very crooked associate of Jack Abramoff's (that can't be the right spelling...) who does not live here or care about us in the least. The town of Scotia is wholly owned by them like the "company towns" of the 19th century. There is very little other way to stop the plunder of our remaining forrests and other resources. Something like 1% of the ancient Redwoods remain.

[Endangered Specie]

51. You know, they built insane asylums for these people...

bout time we start USING them!

[flvegan]

82. Here's the website. SHOW ME TERRORISM.

http://www.ar2006.info/index.html

Show me "lethal" and "violent"

Go ahead.

[arwalden]

86. "Join The Army" Brochures Look Nice Too...

I think it's pretty common knowledge that any organization with a web site will put their best-food-forward.

Hey! Here's the Army website. It's all very patriotic and heroic. Exciting, glamorous, masculine, noble!

http://www.goarmy.com/flindex.jsp

Show me death. Shoe me corpses. Show me maimed and wounded. Show me the torture camps. Show me how the site makes clear the PTSD mental anguish and no benefits for psychological care.

Go ahead.

:eyes:

[flvegan]

88. Like I said

show me terrorism and violence.

Go ahead.

[arwalden]

90. That's The Stuff Of Closed-Door Meetings.

That type of nonsense isn't going to be featured front-n-center on their web site.

The absence of such things from the public image that they want to portray does not mean that such things do not exist. Even PETA will publicly distance itself from the likes of ELF and ALF, but we all know differently.

I'd think that anyone as smart as you would be smart enough to figure that out. Even though you evaded (ignored) the valid comparison and the example I was making, I'm confident that you know what I'm talking about.

Repeating your "go ahead" challenge does not change that simple fact. You're scoring absolutely NO points on that.

[flvegan]

92. Actually, I'm staying on topic.

I can't see the "valid comparison" that you allude to.

You can strawman all you want, as that's your right, but until someone actually comes up with something, I'll stand by my post.

So...go ahead.

[arwalden]

93. You're Smarter Than You Pretend To Be...

<< I can't see the "valid comparison" that you allude to. >>

I think I should let you know that the "I-don't-understand" act isn't believable. Such dramatic effects only serve to convince me that you actually DO understand my point, that you lack any substantive response, and that you recognize the weakness of your own position.

I stand by my comparison.

[flvegan]

95. Your "valid comparison" just, well...isn't.

An animal rights conference website v. the US Army brochure? Please.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

100. Deleted sub-thread

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[arwalden]

107. Sure It Is... It's Absolutely Valid To Point Out The Similarities.

Both organizations put their best foot forward. They both highlight and accentuate only the positive. The negative exists, but this is not something they want anyone to see. It's certainly not something they are going to intentionally draw attention to. Therefore, it doesn't make much sense to issue a "challenge" for critics to visit the web site to find something *other* than the what the organization WANTS the public to see.

I stand by my comparison.

[flvegan]

108. The "negative" for the

conference hasn't been shown nor proven.

Please feel free to do so, and give valid reference to this statement.

[arwalden]

114. Yes... It's Well Known That The British Government...

is in the habit of issuing injunctions against phantom extremists? :rofl:

The "deny-everything" and "show-me-the-links" game isn't working. I'm not here to entertain you or do research for you. Continued efforts to ignore and deny reality, or pretending like they don't exist, or issuing online research-challenges (to unwilling foes) does not *change* the reality. No bonus points, sorry.

The truth of the matter is that these groups are extremists and they are violent. You know it, and I know it. Everyone knows it. The victims of their violence know it too. No rational people actually buy the public "who me" act that these groups try to put on.

Fact is, there's no excuse for stymieing animal and primate research and scientific advances that can go a long way towards finding cures for AIDS, Parkinson's, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, etc. (No, wait... save yourself the time... I already know what you're going to say: "What injunctions?")

[flvegan]

115. Okay, you stated

and I quote, "The truth of the matter is that these groups are extremists and they are violent."

Before I can refute any claim, I have to ask for specifics...proof, if you will, of that.

Oh, and the British Government? One word...Blair.

[arwalden]

116. Such A Response Does Not Surprise Me...

It's merely a variation and continuation of the "address-nothing", "admit-nothing", "deny-everything", "define extremists", "define violent", and "show me the links", "bog them down by demanding a full research thesis" games. --- No points for you.

<< Oh, and the British Government? One word...Blair. >>

Blair issues injunctions? Wow! I thought they had courts for that.

[flvegan]

117. Points?

What part of "The truth of the matter is that these groups are extremists and they are violent." that was posted, by you, did you not understand as needing a tad bit of support?

Don't attack me, brother. Back up the post.

[arwalden]

118. What Part Of...

... I'm not playing your "deny everything", "define everything", and "write me a thesis" game did YOU not understand? -- You may continue to deny the obvious if you like. It's no skin off my nose. But no points for you either.

<< Don't attack me, brother. Back up the post. >>

Attacked you? "Brother"? Oh please, spare me!

[flvegan]

120. Sorry to read this.

But, to each his/her own, arwalden.

[arwalden]

121. Yeah right.

:shrug:

[flvegan]

123. Your opinion.

And, as negative as it might be, varies. Sorry.

[arwalden]

125. Ah... More Bait.

Not interested.

[pooja]

94. lets not delude ourselves

Ecologically speaking... all biological organisms must learn to exist within an ecosystem. a sustainable goal that keeps an equilibrium of sorts. I do know that, we as humans, are overextending sustainability. We must try to find better ways to use less and sustain more.
We are not going back to the stone age. (unless forced too). It isn't progressive.

I understand the reasoning behind the arguments for and against using animals for our needs. But everyone must understand nature... its not just fuzzy cute bunny rabbits. Ecosystems are dependant upon each other. Alligators will eat prey and do not do it in a pretty humane way... they do it the best way they can to survive (and they do not care what it is--3 aligator attacks on people this month in FL). There are a lot of problems with the way we, as species, operate. It is better to educate people on their impact on the environment and to continue pushing development of better technologies to reduce our impact.

[flvegan]

96. Welcome to DU, fellow Floridian!

I don't see your point, exactly, though. Not attacking nor diminishing at all. I'm just not getting the context.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pooja]

101. It's not an easy debate

It is not a cut and dry situation. There are indigenous populations who use animals for food supplies (even in our country). There are medicines and products that we use animals for testing. We would not have had the advances we have had thus far in genetics without the little ole' lab rat. On the other hand breeding animals for slaughter is environmentally unstable. Between the land use and the waste by-product it is essentially "bad environmentally". But even now their are advances being made to use waste by-product from animal species as fuel.

There are also problems, I might point out, with agricultural practices as well. There is the land development, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, irrigation, collection process, and distributing process.

We as a species do have tremendous impact on our environment. Education is the key to reforming thinking. I have a degree in Environmental Science. This doesn't make me expert of the week or anything, but its not always easy to solve these issues by saying.... let's stop testing on animals (then your son or daughter is lying in the hospital bed)...let's stop eating meat, when most people do not know how to maintain a healthy diet when becoming a vegetarian. Educating people on recognizing their own impact is the key to reaching a much more stable environment.

[flvegan]

106. I'm going to both agree and disagree, respectfully.

I disagree that animal testing is all it's cranked up to be. It's mandated by the government, yes. However, you and I...we aren't rats. Things differ when you cross species. Even big pharma realizes this. I'm grateful that they're working to get a better mandate about product testing, especially considering recent developments (Vioxxxxxxxx...anyone?).

To adress what you said, I'm not saying any of those things. Yes, let's stop testing on animals...because there are alternatives. Let's stop eating meat...because we don't need to, it's a negative on the environment and health, and the world can't support it. BUT, let's get together and find a proper diet, and educate folks about it.

And yes, there are indigenous populations that use animals for food. You'll never, ever see me hassling someone over survival.

[LeftyMom]

97. Humans have free will

We aren't obligate carnivores like lions or alligators. We are perfectly capable of minimizing our cruelty to other species and in fact we benefit from both a healthier enviornment and better individual health when we do so. The easiest, cheapest and fastest way to reduce our impact on the enviornment (more dramatic results than switching from an SUV to a hybrid) is to stop eating animal-derived foods.

[arwalden]

102. Yes. Well Stated. I Understand The Points You're Making.

Excellent post. :thumbsup:

[progressivebydesign]

103. Terrorism is terrorism. They're very wrong to do this.

Those people take themselves way to seriously. I can't believe they'd actually think they're helping their cause by hurting people... that's what I don't get about terrorism at all. What's the fucking point? ALl you do is piss people off.. not like you're going to get your way EVER.

[flvegan]

104. Wrong to do what?

What specifically have these specific folks done that's akin to terrorism?

[arwalden]

105. Excellent Observations!

You took the words right out of my keyboard! :thumbsup:

[Catchawave]

111. You're wrong....

:PING: Dissent isn't terrorism ...d'oh. Though, I'm sure you too can prove it here with SOURCES :rofl:

[LeftyMom]

113. What sort of terrorists go out of thier way not to risk human life?

Property damage isn't terrorism and neither is economic pressure.

Stop carrying water for right wingers and corporatists. :eyes:

[Solon]

122. DAMN!!! I read the thread...

OK, I'm not exactly a defender of AR activists, at least their views, to put it kindly. I'm no vegetarian, and animal testing for valid medical reasons is OK by me. But Cheesus on a Cracker some people go completely nuts over this. OK, let me see if I can get this straight about what the anti-AR people believe:

Arson equals murder

Dissent equals terrorism

This tells me someone's cheese fell of their cracker, to put it kindly.

[yewberry]

124. What I find most difficult

is that so many don't realize that there is a huge difference between activists is the US and those in the UK.

Here, if there are attacks (which are on the decline, btw) they are property crimes. Now, I'm not advocating property crimes, but they are no reason to have "eco-terrorism" be the #1 priority for the FBI. They are no reason for the incredibly draconian and unconstitutional laws that have been passed in this country specifically to target activists.

Y'know, just because people do some dumb shit doesn't mean all people do. FARM Sanctuary never threw blood on people wearing fur, and I never burned down a building.

Sorry you didn't find more to object to here; would it help if I called you a puppy-molestor?

[jmm]

126. Locked

This discussion has become a flamefest