MSNBC reporting David Kelly died from a cut to the wrist. Must be suicide

[NNN0LHI]

Sounds like a pretty good story, except this is not possible. Ask someone who knows. Don't believe me.

Don

[seemslikeadream]

1. Maybe they cut the wrong wrist

was he right or left handed?

[Kellanved]

2. Additional Info

--snip
A spokesman said a post-mortem revealed the death was caused by a cut to the left wrist and a knife was found nearby, along with a packet of pain killers.
--snap
from
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3079787.stm

And on yahoo:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20030719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_weapons_adviser

[Vitruvius]

6. The right painkiller would be a good cover for his being doped up by

a killer.

[Kellanved]

13. coproxamol

--snip
"Whilst our inquiries are continuing, there is no indication at this stage of any other party being involved," he said. The painkiller found at the scene was coproxamol, which often figures in overdose deaths in England.

--snap
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20030719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_weapons_adviser

[dbt]

3. Was the cut transverse or lateral?

Once had a doctor tell me that the way to do it was to make a cut parallel to the forearm. Doing it across the wrist just doesn't, umm, er, cut it.

:freak:
dbt

[liberalnurse]

39. Exactly!!!

Plus males typically use a quick and lethal method such as a gun or hanging. This guy was a perfectionist and it is highly unlikely he would be so causal and non mythodical in his final hour. A cut left wrist is an extremely slow, slow, slow method and compound that with a narcotic....which slows thing down more......Oh they could of come up with a better one than that....They took enough time too.....

[jmm]

56. I've heard that too.

Years ago while in a hospital waiting room I saw a guy with multiple scars and cuts across his wrists. He said that he had yet again attempted to commit suicide. I don't know if he wasn't serious or was just mistaken about how to do it but after I finished talking with him someone told me that cutting across the wrists almost never is fatal.

[DUreader]

4. Don, what do you mean 'not possible'.

I have read people will often do this in a bath to prevent clotting.

Is that why ?

[NNN0LHI]

8. Yes n/t

[sam sarrha]

75. bath.. and question of the pills..an stupid knife.

i've heard the bath is actually to prevent discomfort at the end, keeps you from convulsing when shock sets in. you dont get cold. as for the pills, if you are gong to do it, why didnt he take all the pills??? and you DONT use a Knife!!! that would really hurt! i was a biologist... with a lot of microbiology experience... They have the SHARPEST F'n scalpels in the world. yu can cut the crap out of yourself and not know it. a knife would prove a murder cover up.

[madmax]

5. The man was a weapons scientist

I'm sure if he wanted to off himself he'd have had a better method.

[Ripley]

7. And wasn't he a microbiologist to boot?

Why would he choose such a gruesome death when he probably had access to things like arsenic in a laboratory?

[Mairead]

10. Bleeding out is a relatively painless way to go

Poisons tend not to be.

The main problem with bleeding out from opening your wrists is that it takes a long time to exhaust your blood supply. So you'd better be quite determined. Or doped to the eyebrows.

[Neecy]

11. hmmmm

Wasn't he only missing for a few hours before the body was located? Would that have been enough time to bleed to death from a single knife cut to the wrist?

[study_war_no_more]

77. this guy had smarts and knowledge

I think he would have thought of something that was instant and painless, this is extremely improbable.

[jpgray]

9. Calling the bullshit on this. Did they get the facts wrong?

This goes against almost everything I've read about suicide, and wrist-cutting in particular.

[Gin]

12. Has anyone noticed how they keep saying he was identified by

the clothing he was wearing,( resembling what Kelly had on when he left home)...why can't his face be the identification? Am I the only one who sees this?

Why does it take days to identify a person who is plastered all over the television daily, and he was found 2 miles from his home.

[oceanpoetry]

14. yes, I caught that to!

When I first read this, it seemed like something terrible and disfiguring must have happened, not to be able to identify him immediately, esp when he was found so soon. No we're getting conflicting stories, first reports I saw were about gunshot wounds now it is slashed wrists....tin foil hat firmly in place on this one
I'm not buying the suicide story. :tinfoilhat:

[Gin]

16. Thanks...I don't feel so alone with my "identification" question

gin

[FlaGranny]

18. One thought on the reason he couldn't be

immediately identified is that if he died face down, the blood and body fluids, due to gravity, are pulled to the lowest parts of the body. If he were face down his face would have been discolored and swollen. Gruesome, but that's one explanation for not being able to identify him immediately.

[Gin]

21. Interesting...I will be watching for the details...thanks for the info.

gin

[ChillEB]

49. Not if he bled to death...

Wouldn't be that much blood to rush to the face, would there?

[DS1]

64. You still have plenty of blood

just not even to sustain enough blood pressure to deliver it oxygenated to all the right places.

This theory is plausible, but I still think he was offed in the name of keeping him quiet.

[Guaranteed]

43. Any bruises or scrapes?

They need to look for signs of a struggle. Someone could have shot him up with the same kind of tranquilizers left behind, then cut his wrist...but, before that there should have had to grab him pretty hard....should be bruises on his arms, something to that effect. If there's no bruises, looks like it's prolly suicide.

[sam sarrha]

76. recognition

i saw that right away..i thought ..shotgun

[joeunderdog]

52. He was probably dead (or unconscious) before his wrist was cut.

To die from wrist-cutting, the cut has to be substantial, usually wrist to elbow rather than side to side. If this was the cause of death, there would be an unmistakable pool of blood nearby. I'm curious to know what the scene looked like when he was found.

An autopsy will show what was in the blood to render him unconscious and whether he administered the lethal agent.

Don't they use chloroform-soaked rags in those Bond films?

Add me to the conspiracy theorist list.

[janx]

15. Oh, they killed him all right--whether he offed himself or not.

I was watching the intense grilling he got from his government (they replayed this on BBC via CSPAN last night). It was brutal. He knew what was going on, he knew what his government and the U.S. government had done, and the vultures were picking him apart. One guy kept insisting that he tell them the names of all reporters he had ever talked to, right then and there. This went on and on and on. It was absolutely revolting.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Well said...It's unconscionable the way they treated him. n/t

n/t

[Libby2]

19. I agree, it was revolting.

I watched it too.
Despicable display.

[young_at_heart]

22. A lot a people need to be questioned about all this

Tony Blair and his supporters have to be accountable!

[janx]

25. Blair already knows. Whether

he admits it or not will be a different matter.

[twilight]

42. Blair knew

Wasn't it a coincidence that Blair the other LIAR happened to be enroute back to jolly ol' England (which ain't so jolly anymore) when this occurred?

I smell a BIG BIG LYING RAT!!!!

:dem:

[study_war_no_more]

78. and reading a story about a goat!!

Judas goat I betcha.

[legin]

30. One theory

is that someone (MI5, MI6) dug up a nice skeleton on him.

Look what happened to Scott Ritter, also Wolfowitz ordered an 'intelligence check' into Hans Blix when Blix was being a bit awkward.

A close friend of Kelly's said in an interview on BBC that Kelly's performance at committee hearing was very subdued for him, so I'd guess the 'skeleton card' was shown to Kelly before he testified.

If my guess is right and things get a bit hot for the government, we might get to see what the 'skeleton card' is.

On another note I'm not sure how much I buy this 'poor, innocent scientist dropped into a political malestrom' angle, he was after all a wepons inspector in Iraq, if that is not a political hothouse I don't know what is.

[supernova]

20. BBC report link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3079787.stm

[Barrett808]

48. "Have you got blood on your hands Mr Prime Minister?" n/t

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

51. BBC has been down for at least an hour

anyone else having problems?

[Kellanved]

53. works fine for me (n/t)

[kalian]

23. Oh really?

Hmmm...strange way for a gentleman of his character and caliber
to off himself.
Slitting one's wrist is a VERY slow death...

[Flubadubya]

24. Would have to have a lot of heparin in his system...

to die from a slit wrist. And if so, how did it get there?

[Rollins]

26. Being doped up allows us to make stupid decisions but...

...this whole situation has neon lights blinking,
"COVER-UP".

Wonder if the BBC will release more information they obtained from him if he is the mole.

[leQ]

28. from slate's today's papers:

While visibly shaken and stressed, Kelly's wife denies that her husband appeared suicidal. The NYT reports that Kelly sent an email to a reporter on Thursday saying that he was waiting "until the end of the week" to judge how his testimony had gone. In another email sent to an associate shortly before he left on his walk, Kelly wrote that he was determined to work through the controversy and return to working in Iraq. The Post notes that all parties involved in the controversy, from the press to the government, have been criticized for his death.

the times' article referenced is at http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/19/international/worldspecial/19BRIT.html. the post article referenced is at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13763-2003Jul18.html?nav=hptop_tb

[PunkinPi]

27. This may be a silly question, but

if he did (I and don't think he did) commit suicide, why would he go out to the woods to do it? I mean, it doesn't make much sense to me to go out to the woods to do this. :shrug:


:tinfoilhat: time.

[philosophie_en_rose]

32. And why wouldn't he "tell all" first?

If I was going to commit suicide over a political issue, I'd damned sure send all of the information I had to every news agency possible. If I knew that I wanted to die, why wouldn't I speak out?



"Dr Kelly, a Ministry of Defense consultant on biological weapons and former UN arms inspector in Iraq, had been named by the government as a possible "mole" and the source for a BBC news report accusing officials of hyping intelligence about Iraqi weapons to justify war in Iraq."

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/europe/view/44883/1/.html

[Norbert]

60. Also, all reports I heard about him is that he was distressed...

with the situation the last week. I've heard that in many cases a person that commits suicide is in good spirits immediately before taking their own life meaning the fatefull decision has been made. It doesn't sound like it in this case.


Hmmmmmm!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

44. Consideration for his wife , perhaps. 'Dark Forces'...

may have threatened his family the way former ambassador Wilson's wife was smeared by the White House for publicly debunking the forged Niger uranium purchase story. That's just one possibility under the 'he killed himself' list of theories. It's more likely he got neutralized but anything is possible with humans, even when they seem ok.
Consequences: at the very least, American sheeple continue to begin to notice that something smells very bad in the US/UK intelligence justifications for what is now a guerilla war. That is, more questions than answers and a neurological foothold for the, until recently, m.i.a. opposition party to use.

[NYC]

67. Because doing it at home would have left vivid memories for his wife.

Some people. as a courtesy to the other family members, commit suicide away from home so that the family can continue living in the home without being afraid to enter the room where it happened, etc.

That's a reason for a suicide taking place away from home. I have no reason to believe this was a suicide.

[Capt_Nemo]

29. There you have it:

Kelly got "suicided"...

[Mokito]

31. Was this walk in the woods...

(edit:title)

something he did frequently? If so, it would have been easy to establish a pattern in his life in which a time and location for 'suiciding' exsisted.
From the look of archived images he certainly looks like a natureloving person who makes frequent trips into the countryside.

[nostamj]

45. the wife is quoted

as saying the afternoon walks were a regular thing.

there's another article that says he sent out emails prior to the walk and there was nothing suicidal in them...

[bandy]

33. wonder where his computer

is right now!

[NNN0LHI]

34. Police Search Weapons Inspector's Home in Death Investigation

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAX6PNOBID.html

SOUTHMOOR, England (AP) - Weapons expert David Kelly apparently committed suicide by slashing his left wrist, police said Saturday in a case that has plunged the British government deeper into controversy over the intelligence used to justify war in Iraq.

Police said they found a knife and painkillers near Kelly's body, which was discovered Friday in woods not far from his home in the village of Southmoor, 20 miles southwest of Oxford.

"The cause of death was hemorrhaging from a wound to his left wrist," acting superintendent David Purnell of Thames Valley Police told reporters in Wantage, near Southmoor.

"Whilst our inquiries are continuing, there is no indication at this stage of any other party being involved," he said. The painkiller found at the scene was coproxamol, which often figures in overdose deaths in England.

more

[GermanDJ]

70. Without wanting to spread conspiracy theories:

"Police investigating Dr Kelly's death have taken away his home computer for examination"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3080795.stm

I wonder, if the british police is part of those dark forces David Kelly had in mind when a few hours before he died he wrote:

"Many dark actors playing games" (same source)

I tend to think that he really was murdered. Seems like a more likely assumption to me right now.

[trapper914]

35. If we jump to conclusions...

...we're just as guilty as the repukes with regard to Vince Foster. And like Mr. Foster, I'm sure there will be an official inquiry on this because, yes, it sure looks fishy.

If an investigation reveals David Kelly did, indeed, off himself, I can abide by it, just as I could abide by the investigative results of the Vince Foster suicide.

Man! Are these cases similar!

[barbaraann]

47. No, the cases aren't similar.

There was NOTHING suspicious about Vince Foster's death and there is a LOT suspicious about Kelly's death.

Even right-wing British newspapers are suspicious but only insane brainwashed Republicans were suspicious about Vince Foster.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

71. Suspicious Suicides

There was A LOT suspicious about Foster's death. The comparisons are inevitably going to come up, but this one is different because of its connection to a war where soldiers are dying every day and no end in sight.

[okieinpain]

36. notice that the bbc article states that folks were concerned that

he not be question too hard. man they already have the suicide reason down pack. how convenient that the guy that exposes the lie, is too sensitive to be questioned.

[davsand]

37. Does coproxamol thin the blood?

Aspirin functions as a blood thinner, it can increase bleeding. Would coproxamol function the same way? I tend to doubt it given the fact that it is used pre-surgery for pain control. In looking at the notes on the drug, it sounds like it is about on par with a Tylenol 3 or a Darvocette here in the US.

Here is one site tht discusses the drug, but there is no indicator of its impact on clotting:

http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/cache/-1710882746.htm

"coproxamol


This is dextropropoxythene and paracetamol (in a combination of 32.5 mg of dextroproxythene with 325mg of paracetamol).

Dextropropoxythene is well absorbed and metabolised in the liver. It has a half-life of 12 hours.

Dextropropoxythene does not commonly causes adverse effects in short courses of therapeutic doses. Note though that chronic usage may cause constipation and overdose may cause similar effects to morphine."

So how'd he mange to bleed out with one "deep" cut on his wrist?

Laura

[sal]

40. Cliff Baxter found with same dope in blood

dextropropoxephene (darvocet) I am sure of.

[FubarFly]

38. This was a murder committed by enemies of Blair

The "suicide" was deliberately sloppy, and was intended to be suspicious.

Once it is found to be a an actual murder, all fingers will point squarely at Blair.

Any remaining shred of credibility Blair had with the British people will be destroyed. Blair will be damned in the court of public opinion.

The actual murderer will be someone who would benefit from Blair's political destruction.


(This is my current theory anyway. I've pulled out the tinfoil body suit for this one.)

[Barrett808]

41. This was my first thought as well

I bet Tony is sweating bullets right now.

[knowledgeispower]

46. Takes the light off Bush

Blair was in a ton of trouble over the weapons of mass destruction stuff, which could be linked to Bush. This, however, will be spun as purely a case of Blair's administration driving the poor depressed man to suicide. It doesn't implicate Bush at all while getting the whole weapons thing out of the spotlight.

[rook1]

50. I have some questions myself...

First, who are "they" It is easy to assume a person has been murdered. Everytime someone of high visibility dies there automatically has to be some sinister reason. I don't buy it.

Wouldn't it be better to wait until the case developes and then do some research to find out what "really" happpened? The truth will come out, believe me. The right wingers hope that we will do exactly what we are doing...chase ghosts, rumors and engage in endless speculation about what "might have happened". Confusion hides the truth from those who seek it.
Patience is the key.Quiet careful observation and collection of information....and when the time is right...SLAM!

He may have been murdered, but accusations do not make a case. You must have hard evidence...and as of yet...we have none.

[Mokito]

55. The Problem Is...

All things related to this and other deaths that could be acquired by simple people like us here on DU can all easily be dismissed, because of the simple fact that all 'evidence' gathered would be purely circumstancial. So, in any event, it is all in the eye of the beholder, as far as us is concerned. Not that that pleases me though.

[FubarFly]

57. Don't confuse speculation with accusation.

There is more than one way to get at the truth.

You don't need to see the gun to infer it's existence from the bullet hole.

[aquart]

54. So it benefits Bush.

Right?

[TrueStory]

58. A Career In Microbiology Can Be Harmful To Your Health

After 9/11 fourteen world-class microbiologists died under strange circumstances. David Kelly is the fifteenth in the row.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/02_14_02_microbio.html">A Career In Microbiology Can Be Harmful To Your Health

FTW -- Feb. 28, 2002 -- In the four-month period from Nov. 12 through Feb. 11, seven world-class microbiologists in different parts of the world were reported dead. Six died of "unnatural" causes, while the cause of the seventh's death is questionable. Also on Nov. 12, DynCorp, a major government contractor for data processing, military operations and intelligence work, was awarded a $322 million contract to develop, produce and store vaccines for the Department of Defense. DynCorp and Hadron, both defense contractors connected to classified research programs on communicable diseases, have also been linked to a software program known as PROMIS, which may have helped identify and target the victims.

In the six weeks prior to Nov. 12, two additional foreign microbiologists were reported dead. Some believe there were as many as five more microbiologists killed during the period, bringing the total as high as 14. These two to seven additional deaths, however, are not the focus of this story. This same period also saw the deaths of three persons involved in medical research or public health.

[Porcupine]

59. Slashes one wrist, on painkillers, in rainy weather= Murder

this is just too stupid. Slashing one wrist doesn't kill you and a microbiologist would know that. If the weather was even cool the likelihood that that would slow peripheral circulation is great. Remember they made a fuss about how he didnt' take his coat.

I want a toxicology report. My wild-assed theory is that somebody pointed a gun at him, told him they were going for a ride and gave him a pill. Once he was out they slashed his wrist for effect.

Unfourtunately there are more than a few drugs that will depress the system long enough for you to die of hypothermia and fade away. The pills would help mask these.

Blair needs to go down and pull Bushh* with him. This has gone too far.

Tinfoil hat ON!! :tinfoilhat:

[wabeewoman]

61. I read that he was found 5 miles from home...

not a long walk but when I read that I thought it was funny for him to walk that far just to kill himself-maybe so his wife wouldn't find him?? I've always heard that the suicide victim doesn't plan for tomorrow and leaves some indication they are depressed. According to this web site:" Suicide is rarely a spur of the moment decision. In the days and hours before people kill themselves, there are usually clues and warning signs." Of course, we don't know all the details, yet.

http://www.befrienders.org/suicide/warning.htm

[peacetalksforall]

62. Incongruencies

How could a person who was as stressed as he was, answer questions so normally, with some humor, with perfect responses for a human being? Then, turn around and become so depressed that he decides overnight to kill himself? There is not one thread of credibility in this from an observers standpoint and not knowing one darn thing about that kind of life. Here we have a man who took a grilling admirably, e-mailed friends about things he would do at the end of the week, appeared to be passionate about his avocation, probably cared about the world to even talk to anyone over this killing madness going on in the world right now.

The questions now are:

Do the British concoct snow jobs the way our cabal does?

Do the British people demand more truth than Americans do?

Why are there 14/15 dead micro-biologists?

Why can't people smell better?

Why are there so many bs believers?

I hope I'm wrong.

[peacetalksforall]

63. Why does the world tolerate these killers?

n/t

[myrna minx]

65. Incongruencies, indeed.

As a person who has known two people who have committed the act of taking their own life, this does not add up in any way. This creates more questions than answers.

[soothsayer]

66. Yup, murdered

Mebbe the BFEE is so entrenched that they don't even CARE how obvious they are anymore.

Guess this will be a message to anyone else who wants to squawk, just like the military cracking down on 'complainers' before F-ing wolfie goes over there. Prolly made them take the ammo out of their guns, too.

[All Good Men]

68. Maybe this had to be done QUICKLY

No time to plant seeds to make it look more credible. Apparently, what he could reveal in the next week was far too much for someone or some people to bear and he had to go that quickly.

[hedgetrimmer]

69. SHOW ME THE BODY!!!!!!!!!!!!

all can speculate one way or another... all evidence is subjective from an outsiders point of view and because of that can be manipulated to give a impression of desired intent... with that said...

SHOW ME THE BODY!....

then i can see for myself...

[Tinoire]

72. His last e-mail

Accused of being a mole and a fall guy he was in fact one of the country's top experts on biological weapons, working for the MOD and the Foreign Office, and formerly as a weapons inspector in Iraq.

Just yesterday in an email to a friend he expressed a desire to return to the job that meant so much to him. "Hopefully it will soon pass" he wrote "and I can get to Baghdad and get on with the real work."

<snip>


He sent an email to his friend Alistair Hay yesterday morning. In it he said he was planning to return to Iraq - and he told colleagues he agreed to meet Andrew Gilligan so he could get a first-hand description of conditions in Baghdad.

<snip>

http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/07/week_3/19_kelly.html

[Tinoire]

73. Article: Scientists' deaths are under the microscope

Alanna Mitchell, Simon Cooper And Carolyn Abraham COMPILED BY ALANNA MITCHELL
Saturday, May 4, 2002


It's a tale only the best conspiracy theorist could dream up.

Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of just five months. Some of them world leaders in developing weapons-grade biological plagues. Others the best in figuring out how to stop millions from dying because of biological weapons. Still others, experts in the theory of bioterrorism.

<snip>

The first three died in the space of just over a week in November. Benito Que, 52, was an expert in infectious diseases and cellular biology at the Miami Medical School. Police originally suspected that he had been beaten on Nov. 12 in a carjacking in the medical school's parking lot. Strangely enough, though, his body showed no signs of a beating. Doctors then began to suspect a stroke.

Just four days after Dr. Que fell unconscious came the mysterious disappearance of Don Wiley, 57, one of the foremost microbiologists in the United States. Dr. Wiley, of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute at Harvard University, was an expert on how the immune system responds to viral attacks such as the classic doomsday plagues of HIV, ebola and influenza.

<snip>

Just five days after that, the world-class microbiologist and high-profile Russian defector Valdimir Pasechnik, 64, fell dead. The pathologist who did the autopsy, and who also happened to be associated with Britain's spy agency, concluded he died of a stroke.

<snip>

More here

[sam sarrha]

74. Worst case senario

maybe they are getting ready to reduce the world population down to a manageable level, the only possable cure for global warming. with the only people who could come up with a cure gone, the program is assured to run its course. i have heard that the target is the population of 1840's. actually all they really have to do is spread a rumor in chima that 2 gallbladders from new born babys will give an old chinese man a hard on, and the human race will be extinct in short order.