2nd DNA Test Shows No Conclusive Match (Duke rape allegation)

[sleipnir]

By AARON BEARD, Associated Press Writer

RALEIGH, N.C. - A second round of DNA testing in the Duke University lacrosse rape case came back with the same result as the first — no conclusive match to any member of the team, defense attorneys said Friday.

Attorney Joseph Cheshire, who represents a team captain who has not been charged, said the tests showed genetic material from a "single male source" was found on a vaginal swab taken from the accuser, but that material did not match any of the players.

"In other words, it appears this woman had sex with a male," said Cheshire, who spoke at a news conference with other defense attorneys in the case. "It also appears with certainty it wasn't a Duke lacrosse player."

Cheshire said the testing did find some genetic material from several people on a plastic fingernail found in a bathroom trash can of the house where the team held the March 13 party. He said some of that material had the "same characteristics" — a link short of a conclusive match — to some of the players, but not the two who have been charged with rape, kidnapping and sexual assault.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060513/ap_on_sp_co_ne/duke_lacrosse

[TankLV]

1. Opps!

[genie_weenie]

2. No! I am in a revolving door of emotion!

The Theater of the Absurd continues...

Episode 5 The Empire Strikes Again

In tonight's episode, slurs accusations and counter accusations fly, in the all important Duke Rape Case

Meanwhile Darth W continues the destruction of the Bill of somethings and Kids (American and Iraqi) die in Iraq...

[IndianaGreen]

8. This smells like the Tawana Brawley case

We are talking about an alleged victim that fingers as her assailant a Duke player that, according to a bank's ATM camera, is not at the alleged scene of the crime at the time the alleged victim claims the alleged crime took place.

Prosecutor Nifong has also sunk to harassing a potential defense witness, the cab driver, with a misdemeanor arrest, perhaps with the intent to coerce the witness into silence.

Tawana Brawley case comes to mind.

[genie_weenie]

11. I think you're correct.

Her accounts don't hold up and Nifong's trial by media/enrage the populace tactics have been backfiring on him...

No Justice to be found in Durham...

[IndianaGreen]

14. If this ends up like another Twana Brawley case, the injustice would be

to the bona fide rape victims.

The moral of the story could well end up being: don't indict until you have enough evidence to convict, don't side automatically with any party on a criminal case until you know more about it.

[genie_weenie]

16. There is no Moral

People don't change there set assumptions of the world ever. So, I doubt anyone would heed your above advice, sorry...

[TankLV]

21. That is the ONE concern I have too.

It is unfortunate - no horrible - that if this turns out to be another false accusation, how it will make an aleady bad situation for rape victums worse.

It just stinks to high heaven.

Shame on the false accuser.

Shame of the players for holding a strip party in the first place.

Shame for trying this in the media - again.

Shame all around.

I wonder what's REALLY going on here.

[IndianaGreen]

24. Shame on Nifong for getting a indictment to bolster his election chances

But then, the Wendy Murphys and Nancy Graces of this world will convict and execute an accused in the absence of evidence.

[TankLV]

26. sigh... bad any way you look at it.

Works nice as a diversion from REPUKE crimes, tho, doesn't it?

[NashVegas]

260. There Was Never Any Evidence Tawana Was Raped in the First Place

This case is different in that respect.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

71. Where is the evidence that supports the rape allegation?

Where is the DNA that links indicted Reade Seligmann to the case? Are you fearful that by admitting that there is exculpatory evidence on Seligmann, and the potential prosecutorial misconduct that it entails, you can no longer sustain this crusade?

Nifong was wrong to bring an indictment forward before he had his ducks in row, doubly so for going to the grand jury on the eve of an election in which he was a candidate for reelection.

Some people don't even know the meaning of the word liberal, which begins with a presumption of innocence of the accused, and that applies to rape charges as it does to terrorism charges.

[FredScuttle]

96. Why don't you try taking on one thing at a time

The SANE's examination confirms the victim was raped.

Lost in VA didn't say a goddman word about Seligman.

Why don't you tell me about how many false rape reports you personally have knowledge of and then we'll talk.

[Mike Daniels]

263. Who's to say she wasn't raped prior to the gig?

People don't always report rape the moment it happens which seems to be something that people have discounted in this case.

[jberryhill]

309. Because she wasn't with the players prior to the gig

You fail to understand that the lacrosse players are guilty.

If you suggest the possibility that she was raped prior to arrival, and either too traumatized or involuntarily intoxicated to the point where she didn't remember events clearly, then you are "smearing the victim" and are "pro rape".

If you mention that NOBODY has interest in who dropped her off at the party, or anything before midnight, you are "making stuff up".

My take is that IF she really arrived with injuries, as has been claimed to be shown in the photographs, then on the moral side of things, it is just another testament to the depravity of the players that they had an injured and disoriented person show up, and they only cared about whether they were going to get their performance.

But, for reasons unfathomable, that additional condemnation of the players puts me on their "side" of this thing.

It's baffling.

[LostinVA]

270. I was busy this weekend, so wasn't on here much -- thanks, Torchie!

Yeah, I don't remember mentioning Seligman at all....

[TorchTheWitch]

146. The SANE report

The SANE report says that there is physical and emotional evidence consistant with the alleged victim having been raped.

According to the transcript from the photo ID, apparently Seligmann only allegedly raped the alleged victim orally, therefore, in his case there will be no DNA evidence.

Positive DNA evidence is only found in about 70% of rape cases. Life ain't like CSI.

[jberryhill]

174. Positive DNA Evidence Is, In Most Cases, Irrelevant

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

Most rape cases are acquaintance rape cases in which the primary issue is consent, not whether contact ocurred.

So of course DNA evidence is irrelevant most of the time.

[IndianaGreen]

179. There is no DNA match to the two players indicted

Cheshire said the testing did find some genetic material from several people on a plastic fingernail found in a bathroom trash can of the house where the team held the March 13 party. He said some of that material had the "same characteristics" -- a link short of a conclusive match -- to some of the players, but not the two who have charged with rape, kidnapping and sexual assault.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9209919/detail.html

DURHAM, N.C. -- A Duke lacrosse player whose DNA may match tissue found under the fake fingernails of an exotic dancer who claims she was raped was identified in a photo lineup with 90 percent certainty, sources tell NBC-17.

<snip>

Now, NBC-17 has learned that the player is not one of the two already accused in the case -- Reade Seligmann, of Essex Fells, N.J., and Collin Finnerty, of Garden City, N.Y.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9203288/detail.html

[TorchTheWitch]

266. So?

You have some kind of point?

[jberryhill]

86. You wouldn't care?

I do give a damn that you think thinking they're innocent means she's a lying skank criminal drug-addled ho who was raped bey a pimp

I'm really surprised at that.

Are you saying that if she was raped by a pimp it wouldn't be rape?

I don't care who raped her - I'd like to see that person convicted. Period.

You toss off that "raped by a pimp" think as if it doesn't matter whether a prostitute is raped by a pimp.

Elsewhere, you take offense a the word "prostitute".

Prostitutes are women too, and can be (and often are) rape victims.

This woman, whatever her occupation, arrived at the house at midnight. If she had been the victim of a rape before or after, then someone somewhere is unduly limiting the pool of suspects.

You are correct, the crime does not go away - even if it was committed by the "boyfriend" or other people whom you apparently find too unsavory to count as humans.

I don't care what she did or who it was. I would like to see any rapist go to jail, even if it doesn't fit your definition of a pretty situation.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

87. What "victim"?

I'm so sick of all this pandering to someone who brought a charge that clearly will never be substantiated.

I say she lied, and she should be charged.

[FredScuttle]

95. "pandering"

OLL, I respect your opinions, so I'm going to to try to be civil about this...I'm disappointed.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

186. wow, someones gone off the deep end again.

sad to see this happening more and more frequently these days.
so pointless and nasty.

[NashVegas]

261. I Believe Their Trial Comes First - If They Are Charged

If you want to charge her with fraud, you've first got to prove she's lying.

What evidence do you have?

[pnwmom]

98. Is the SANE report public? Because I've never read any

details about it.

[Spike from MN]

206. Maybe this is what you're looking for.

In a report released earlier today by the Duke hospital detailing the results of the toxicology test that was performed on the alleged victim in the Duke Lacrosse rape case, the blood test results showed no signs of illicit drugs. The Blood Alcohol Concentration was measured to be .15. No presence of illicit drugs was found in the urine sample taken from the alleged victim. The medical exam performed by the sexual-assualt nurse showed no signs that the victim had been buggered in the previous 36 hours. The nurse stated that the results prove without a doubt that the alleged victim is an alcoholic lying whore and that the accused Lacrosse players are innocent young men that have been wrongfully accused.

http://www.ijustmadethatshitup.com

And yeah, it's sarcasm.

[Moosepoop]

142. You are obsessed with Tawana Brawley.

Get over it. If the jury in this case decides that there is no credible evidence of a rape taking place, then you can cry about similarities to the Brawley case. We're nowhere near that point yet.

As for the bank ATM camera, it shows Seligmann at the bank at 12:24.

What was the alleged time of the rape again? I ask because Seligmann is alleged to have made her perform oral sex only, rather having been one of those who allegedly raped her vaginally and anally.

How long does it take to stick a penis in someone's mouth? It doesn't matter if that part of the assault lasted 10 seconds or 10 minutes, it's still a crime. It doesn't matter if the penis-wielder ejaculated or not, it's still the same crime. Ejaculation does make a difference in the likelihood of DNA being recovered from a victim's mouth, though. If no ejaculation, then any skin cells that may have rubbed off are likely to have been washed away by a victim's own saliva by the time he or she is swabbed by investigators. Whether a rubber was used or not, the likelihood of DNA being found in a victim's mouth after forced oral sex without ejaculation is minimal. Therefore the lack of Seligmann's DNA on her is to be expected.

Since Seligmann is suspected of forced oral sex only, which could have taken place in a very short time frame, I think you're overestimating the importance of his presence at the bank at 12:24.

Nifong has "sunk to harrassing" someone because the police picked that someone up on an outstanding warrant? OK, by that reasoning, anyone who evades a warrant for a certain period of time should be off scot-free then? Perhaps you should work to get the law changed to that effect, if that's what you believe.

[TorchTheWitch]

145. The timeline is not the alleged victim's

The timeline is that of the defense, not the alleged victim.

And in the case of Seligmann, he WAS there at the alleged time of the alleged crime according to the defense's own time line, just allegedly not long enough to rape anyone.

Tawana Brawley had no medical evidence whatsoever supporting a rape whereas the alleged victim does (both physical and emotional).

[JWS]

218. Shouldn't we just let Bill O'Reilly

And the other talking heads who have spent so much time on this issue take a vote and decide if they are guilty or not? Gotdamned waste of time.:sarcasm:

[progressivebydesign]

227. Why are you buying the defense lawyers press releases??

Have you noticed every single article about this has been FROM the defense attorney, NOT the prosecution. I think we need to wait before we start sending out those hateful thoughts against the alleged victim.

[jberryhill]

233. Agreed...

It's one thing to discuss this on the limited published, and possibly biased, information.

It's another thing entirely to be hateful toward others. And that includes the various participants in the discussion, too.

[chookie]

238. No hateful thoughts are being waged against her

Just skepticism, based on ambiguous evidence.

The DA has had an awful lot to say against the accused -- 70 press conferences, in fact. Should the defence team hang their heads in shame, out of deference to past victims of rape and discrimination, and say nothing on behalf of their clients?

Again -- tomorrow is a big day in the case. The DA will be laying out his evidence in the case that supports his intent to prosecute the case against the accused.

I'm keeping an open mind -- are you?

[jberryhill]

242. No, there are some hateful things which have been posted...

...about the alleged victim.

Whether the state can prove a case here is a legitimate topic for discussion. Personal characterizations about people who did not ask to be national celebrities, and whether they have lived morally spotless lives, is not a legitimate topic.

[LostinVA]

294. I know -- it's like believing what the Swift Boaters said about Kerry

Like, if posters were on here saying, "So what if you have a citation for his Silver Star. His CO was probably in on it. That's what the Swift Boaters said happen. Who cares what Kerry and his sailors said. They were all fucked up on hooch and cheap opium.... Crazy.

[FreakinDJ]

3. Not admisable in court

Attorney Joseph Cheshire, who represents a team captain who has not been charged, said the tests showed genetic material from a "single male source" was found on a vaginal swab taken from the accuser, but that material did not match any of the players.

"In other words, it appears this woman had sex with a male," said Cheshire, who spoke at a news conference with other defense attorneys in the case. "It also appears with certainty it wasn't a Duke lacrosse player."

Can not be discussed in any context what so ever during trial - Rape shield laws

[not_nameless]

4. how do you know

that it will not be allowed?

[FreakinDJ]

5. Not even in the context of injuries consistent with

Here is a North Carolina statute concerning this type of evidence

Rape--rape shield statute--prior sexual encounter on same day

The trial court did not err in a second-degree rape case by excluding evidence of the victim's prior sexual encounter with her boyfriend earlier on the same day as the alleged rape even though defendant presented a defense of consent, and defendant's conviction for second- degree rape is reinstated because: (1) no evidence proffered at the in camera hearing supported an inference that the victim's prior sexual activity was forced or caused any injuries; (2) where consent is the defense, evidence of the prior sexual activity is precisely the type of evidence the rape shield statute under N.C.G.S. § 8C-1, Rule 412 is intended to proscribe when in the instant case the victim described an earlier sexual encounter that was consensual and was unlikely to have produced the type and number of injuries the expert testimony verified that she suffered; (3) given the purpose of the rape shield statute, evidence of the victim's consensual attempt at sexual intercourse with her boyfriend is not probative on the issue of whether she consented to sexual activity with defendant; and (4) even assuming that the excluded evidence was probative, it was substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice to the State and the prosecuting witness.

http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2005/548-04-1.htm

I don't agree with it not being allowed in cross examination of expert witness testimony, namely the examining SANE nurses testimony in the context of could it have cause the injuries she found.

Obviously that is an improper displacement of 14th amendment rights

[not_nameless]

6. some fair trial

so if she says that sex with the other person was consensual, no one can even raise the issue?
Why even bother with the trial then?

I have a feeling that the prosecutor will drop the charges as soon as the Duke lawyers start
challenging this statute; they rather keep this law in the books to use against average Joes.

[bettyellen]

57. i know! if you can't penalise the woman for being a sexual creature-

what fun is it? everyone knows it's impossible to rape a woman who's already had sex that week.


and the average joe gets rape charges leveled against him? oh my, you run with a rough crowd i guess.

[IndianaGreen]

59. No, you penalize the woman for making a false statement

to the police or in court, which I think is where this case is going to end up at.

[bettyellen]

64. not at all relevant to my post or what i replied to.....but thanks!

for nothing of value added to the discussion.

[FreakinDJ]

83. How do you know it was in the last week

or 2 days or 1 day or 1 hour before the "alleged" incident

You awfully quick to critizise others that don't share your point of view and you quickly offer some very misleading mis-information but I don't actually see any thing remotely factual about your post

[Moosepoop]

103. How do you know it wasn't six days prior?

http://www.wral.com/news/9211620/detail.html

According to defense attorneys, a key point the report makes is that the accuser had sex with another man who was not a Duke lacrosse player. However, Knudsen said that it could be a little less relevant to the case if the unidentified male is a person known to the accuser, because that might mean that the DNA had been there five to six days prior to the alleged incident.

Knudsen is a defense attorney, though not connected to this case.

The "unidentified male" IS known to the accuser, as in he's her boyfriend. Even defense attorneys (those outside of this case) can see that the vaginal swab isn't the case-breaker that some people here are trying so hard to make it out to be. You can carry on all you want, I still bet there'll be a third indictment Monday.

[not_nameless]

97. how cute of you

if one gets accused of robbing a store and another customer was
in the store too, seems fair to raise doubts about who really did it.
Of course, only if it was a man, as women never lie!

[Moosepoop]

143. Ah, so you equate a penis in a vagina with a "customer in a store"?

:wtf:

By all means, please share with us your pearls of wisdom regarding "free milk" versus "buying the cow" ...

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moosepoop]

199. My ability to reason is far beyond your level.

BTW, it's a "screen name", honey.

[not_nameless]

200. ...

>> BTW, it's a "screen name", honey.

Ah, you got me. I give up, you're way too smart for me.
http://www.answers.com/nickname&r=67

[chookie]

201. Welcome to DU, N_N!

:hi:

Sorry I didn't say hello earlier, but I found your posts so interesting that I didn't notice that you were a newcomer.

[Moosepoop]

203. I know.

Try not to let it bother you, though.

[LostinVA]

295. Ugh --

I agree, Moose -- totally distasteful.

[Spike from MN]

207. Aw c'mon bettyellen. Apparently you haven't been following

these threads all that much. It's impossible to rape ANY woman. End of story. ALL rape charges are false allegations made by drunk drug-addled lying whores. And ALL guys charge with rape are INNOCENT. Why is it that some people can't seem to grasp those concepts?
:sarcasm: <- A sadly needed tag these days.

And yeah, if NameLess runs with a crowd of "average Joes" that regularly get charged with rape, that's most definitely a crowd I want to avoid.

[IndianaGreen]

7. You can discuss that the DNA doesn't match the Duke players.

Does the name Tawana Brawley ring a bell?

[Tansy_Gold]

9. Absolutely, IG

The "rape shield" law is used to protect victims from having their sexual history trotted out as an excuse for someone else to say, "Well, she did it with him, so I figured that means it's okay if I make her do it with me."

DNA evidence is DNA evidence and is not related to consent.

I get so angry over (apparently) fraudulent cases like this, because they make it just that much more difficult for women who really have been raped to get a fair trial -- in court or even on DU.



Tansy Gold

[TankLV]

22. I totally and unhesitatingly agree with you.

This sucks big time all around.

[dsc]

150. You have really surprised me on this case

I am still pretty agnostic, though this latest turn makes me really start to doubt the accuser, but I have been pleasently surprised at your position here. This case pushes all the usual emotional buttons of race, gender, and class and I am very glad to see you keeping a good dose of skepticism. Great job.

[Marie26]

284. Except it does. nt

[IndianaGreen]

10. I predict Nifong will be forced to eat crow

unless he wants to become another version of Al Sharpton during the infamous Tawana Brawley "rape" case.

[not_nameless]

12. ...

I think he has gone too far to drop the case.

[IndianaGreen]

13. I wonder if the alleged victim paid income taxes on her dancing work

and escort income.

[not_nameless]

15. ...

you must hate women :-)

[chookie]

220. He has made his survival dependent on the outcome of this case

He has taken it too far for politically motivated reasons (IMHO), and now his butt, and credibility and career, are in the hot seat. I think there is a strong probability that he will continue/try to continue this case despite of compelling evidence and logic. This is what the ideologically deranged and driven do.

Tomorrow is the big day -- when he must turn over his evidence to the grand jury and defence. The compelling evidence that he has claimed to possess that makes light of the DNA and ATM evidence that seem to point to a mistaken, but probably false accusation -- will be placed on the table.

I am open-ended to this proceeding. If I have been mistaken in my analysis, I will own up to it.

[pnwmom]

17. Here's the take from MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12762368

But Stan Goldman, a Loyola Law School professor and former Los Angeles County public defender, said he would be surprised if Nifong went ahead with the case unless “they really have something significant that they are not revealing to us” — such as a lacrosse player willing to testify he saw a rape.

“There has got to be some really good prosecution explanation as to why the DNA evidence does not exist and why someone else’s would be there,” Goldman said.

[oneinok]

18. When is the next protest

To be fair and objective...the lynch mobs who screamed and protested at Duke...when will they say "by gosh these boys didn't do anything"..."we were wrong to convict them without a trial"

[pooja]

23. Innocent?

Do you all think that these boys were so innocent. If they were proper young men they would be studying (that's what college is supposed to be for). It is obvious that the actions were not on par with correct actions discernible of a highly regarded academic institution. Whether or not the woman in question was raped or not; why is it ok to continue to say boys will be boys. Woman would not be in the adult industry if men didn't pay a lot of money to participate in it. Simple supply and demand. Lets demand more of men who will go on to live successful lives and influence many aspects of their communities lives. Personally, if I were Duke--I'd throw them out for even having a party such as this.

[IndianaGreen]

25. I am sure the fundies will agree with you on punishing anyone that has sex

outside of marriage. The point is that a prosecutor in the midst of an election campaign uses grand jury proceedings to bolster his reelection chances without having enough evidence to bring the matter to trial.

Nifong could have waited until all DNA results were in, and all the witnesses interviewed and evidence analysed (including the ATM video of Reade Seligmann using ATM before the alleged rape took place).

[pnwmom]

27. It does appear that the prosecutor jumped the gun,

most likely for political purposes.

[TorchTheWitch]

147. You know what his evidence is?

No you don't. You only know what has been publically revealed. No prosectutor will make the public aware of all the evidence... the very idea is ridiculous.

Nifong has an obligation to bring the matter to trial if there is ANY evidence that a rape occurred, the victim can identify her attacker(s) and she is willing to go forward with the case. PERIOD. Damn good thing that prosecutors can't pick and choose which cases they'll bother to try or they'd NEVER try any case that wasn't a slam dunk.

In this case, the SANE is enough evidence that a rape may have occurred, the victim has identified her attacker(s) and wants to go forward with the case.

[pnwmom]

28. Welcome to DU, pooja! n/t

[Igel]

30. And if the woman were a proper young woman

at college--she's a student, after all--she'd have been studying. That's what college is supposed to be for. Then again, she's a mother, so she should also be working to pay for her kid's expenses.

The young men were tempted by the standing offer of women in society to sell viewings of their bodies. The woman was tempted by money; she'd probably make far less and have to work far harder doing 7-11 work (most of her fees/tuition were probably covered by grants, with some loans pitched in), and she and her kid would have a far worse standard of living. The Internet grew by having a little availability, which increased demand, which increased availability, which increased demand.... I can't assign the first trace of moral taint to either party here. At some point with stripping/paying strippers there was a first act, but whether it resulted from a guy's saying, "Hey babe, I'll give you 20 dinars if you prance around naked for me" or some woman's saying, "Hey stud, give me 20 dinars and you can watch me prance around naked" ... hard to say.

Boys will be boys, and girls will be girls. What they did certainly shows no great moral fibre, but the financial transaction and stripping were apparently legal. If we pitch all underage alcohol users and users of illegal drugs out of school, we'd suddenly have a surfeit of college slots. That leaves rape, and issues of class and race. If the rape's proven, then they'll be punished; if the story falls apart so it's clear that not only are they legally not guilty, but they really didn't do the rape, then that leaves a problem, and lots of ill-will. I personally think that kind of ill-will is more corrosive to society than stripping and paying for stripping.

Don't confuse moral and legal innocence. They're completely different things, and increasingly so.

[IndianaGreen]

32. You make it sound as if this was the first time the alleged victim danced

She worked for an escort service, which in my part of the country have always been involved with prostitution and drugs.

As to the issues of "class and race" that's a two-edge sword. It is easy to believe that the children of the elites are up to their usual mischief, and that a woman of color is the victim and her statements are fully credible. But we must follow the evidence, and so far, I haven't seen anything that justifies the indictment of Reade Seligmann.

I do see evidence that the prosecutor, Mike Nifong, is trying to suppress exculpatory evidence by going for a 2-year old misdemeanor warrant against the cab driver that took Seligmann to the dorm, stopping for a burger and at an ATM machine along the way.

Moral innocence? Are we now fundies? Should we prosecute anyone that seeks sensuality outside of marriage? Isn't that what the Bible thumpers are trying to do?

As to the alleged victim, did she declare her exotic dancing earnings on her income tax statement? Let's look at her tax records and see if she is a tax evader.

[Igel]

66. That was part of the point.

The poster before the one I replied to implied legal innocence as a possibility (i.e., they weren't guilty for the stripping/payment for stripping), and the poster I replied to mixed legal and moral innocence. The boys couldn't be 'innocent' because they were into watching women take off their clothes in a provocative manner.

Now, if the boys were the ones who had managed to get her to strip for the first time, maybe the implied 'they're more depraved than the stripper' charge could hold water, and in some sense they corrupted an innocent--but that means her part- or full-time profession most certainly couldn't have been stripping. But it was precisely stripping, so the charge can only be baseless.

I would view either both sets of people, the dancers or the young men, as equally morally depraved (but, in fact, I suspend judgment, since I really don't care what they do if it's consensual and not in my car, office, or apt.); and the transaction itself, the dancing/payment, is legal, and therefore beyond any sort of legal judgment as to innocence or guilt.

[TorchTheWitch]

148. So what?

She was hired to dance, PERIOD. Whether or not she also engages in prostitution doesn't matter. Or are you saying that strippers and hookers can't be raped or deserve to be raped? Are tax evaders not capable of being raped? Do her IRS records or lack thereof have anything whatsoever to do with whether or not she was raped? None of this makes a bit of difference, and you know it. Why even bring this crap up when it isn't relevant?

[not_nameless]

38. -

what does this have to do with whether they raped the escort or not? I fyou want to preach morality, open a new thread.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. Welcome to DU and...

Did you just say "do you think these boys are so innocent... regardless of whether the woman was raped or not?"

I don't think that anyone would describe their behavior as mature or dignified, but that's not the question. "Innocent" in the context of this case is the state of being innocent (which they currently are) of raping the dancer.

If you want to talk about how the lacrosse players attitudes, behaviors and actions reflect poorly on the institution, fine. This thread, however is about the legal question of rape.

The district attorney has not accused them of being spoiled brats and dumbasses. He's accused them of rape. He must prove it.

[not_nameless]

202. Huh?

I said no such thing. The fact that they partied instead of studying doesn't not make them of anything.

[lumberjack_jeff]

204. The subject of your post in this thread about a rape case was "Innocent?"

The direct answer to that question is: "Yes".

Your apparent purpose was to obfuscate the meaning of the concepts of guilt and innocence. But you're not alone. All too many people are trying to use easy-to-prove patterns of jackassedness to convict these guys of rape.

[not_nameless]

259. only if you had been reading

or understanding my posts. I actually have been defending them against Tawana or whatever the "victim's" name is. I't OK though, I forgive you :)

[chookie]

222. Prediction: an efflorescence of complex conspiracy theories

Don't hold your breath that the ideologically motivated will apologize and admit that they were mistaken.

[jberryhill]

231. Nobody's going to have to apologize for anything

I just don't get the tenor of certain aspects of the discussion.

Look, anybody is entitled to have any opinion they want on the basis of facts available at any given time.

If some new fact comes out tomorrow that proves or disproves any particular proposition which was held as a hypothesis by someone yesterday, then they don't need to apologize for not being psychic.

I mean, unless there's a betting pool somewhere in the back room of DU and nobody told me, there is not a person here who has a personal stake in the outcome of this particular case.

[BrownOak]

19. Two points, one on each side....

1. Cheshire isn't talking about ALL the findings here. There's also a white male pubic hair that has been "linked to the case." They don't have the root of the hair so they weren't able to do nuclear DNA, but they can do mitochondrial DNA which isn't as definitive, but could offer some supporting evidence to the prosecution. Also, there is genetic material from several of the players on one of those fake fingernails that were in the trash. One of those people is the 3rd suspect that the alleged victim identified with 90% accuracy. However, it's also believed that he's one of the players who were living in the house so it's possible that his DNA was on the nail when he picked it up to throw away.

2. On the other side, the defense added this about the DNA found in the alleged victim:

The "single male source" who matched the genetic material found on the vaginal swab take from the victim is named in a report on the second round of DNA tests, which were done at a private lab. Cheshire said the man "is known to the Durham police department" but declined to give his name or the nature of his relationship with the accuser.

Now, the question here is what kind of person would have their DNA on file with the police? Unless this is the alleged victim's boyfriend and he voluntarily gave the sample then it would have to be someone with a record who had given DNA for another case and was in the database. The latter of those opens up some interesting possibilities.

[Moosepoop]

29. The "Mystery Man" is her boyfriend.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=1958031&page=1

And yes, he voluntarily gave a cheek swab to the police for this case, for just this event.

Defense attorney Joe Chesire declined to identify the mystery man or his connection to the alleged victim, but ABC News' Law and Justice Unit has learned that the unnamed source of the DNA is the alleged victim's "boyfriend," according to her mother.

ABC News is withholding the name of the man because he is apparently not a target of the investigation. Records indicate that Durham, N.C., police gave the "boyfriend'' a cheek swab to collect DNA on May 3, ABC News' Law and Justice Unit has learned exclusively.

It is unclear if or how the first DNA tests missed what appears to be the only foreign genetic material found on the alleged victim's body, defense attorneys said. Two Duke lacrosse players were indicted more than two weeks before the cheek swab was taken from the "boyfriend."

It is also unclear whether the alleged victim had sex with the "boyfriend" the night she claims to have been raped by three Duke lacrosse players. DNA experts tell ABC News that genetic traces of semen can remain in the body up to six days after intercouse.

So, all this hoopla about DNA belonging to some other male just means that she had sex with her boyfriend sometime in the six days prior to the alleged assault. Not a big deal there.

The pubic hair from a white male does go against all the howling about "no evidence of any sexual activity or violent act, not even a hair!!!". There was a hair, after all.
Same with the fingernail... a lot of people were screaming that there was NO DNA found under her nails, and that was PROOF that she didn't scratch anyone as she had claimed. Now that it's known that there WAS DNA under a nail, and it is linked to one of the players, and that player is the one she identified with 90% certainty in the photo lineup... well, now it's all about discrediting anything and everything surrounding the existence of the male tissue under her nail.

Glad to see you're at least taking a more balanced approach lately, BrownOak. I don't expect you to suddenly switch positions, but at least you seem to be more open to both sides now.

[IndianaGreen]

35. Boyfriend or pimp, or both?

There has been a lot of press on the Duke players, but not enough on the alleged victim background other than a few obscure references to working for an escort service.

[Moosepoop]

36. Sorry, can't take you seriously.

You're just being facetious now.

[IndianaGreen]

40. The escort service said it was $400 for two hours (per dancer)

What sort of man would allow his girlfriend to work for an escort service?

Did the police ask for the boyfriend's DNA, or was it already on file because of a prior offense?

WRAL learned Thursday that she works for Allure Escort Service, which did not return WRAL's calls. The North Carolina Secretary of State's office does not have the business listed as a corporation. There have been no complaints filed with the State Attorney General's Office regarding Allure.

http://www.wral.com/news/8370290/detail.html

[bettyellen]

53. "what sort of man would allow his girlfriend" :rofl: live in a bubble?

where sentences like that aren't hilarious?

[TorchTheWitch]

154. ALLOW???

Look, I'M a stripper. I don't do outcall stripping because of the risk, and I don't have sex with customers for money. My boyfriend doesn't ALLOW me to strip. If he has a problem with it, fuck him, it's MY life, and I don't need anyone's PERMISSION to do something perfectly legal for money. Allow... good grief, I can't even believe you said that.

And for your information, MOST outcall dancing agencies call themselves "escort" agencies. They aren't callling themselves that to advertise they supply prostitutes. The "escort" term has been taken over and replaced the "call girl" term. Believe it or not, there is STILL a legitimate LEGAL escort business, although for obvious reasons I believe it would be prudent for them to choose another term.

And $400 for two hours of work in this business is SHIT money. I get paid $200 per half hour of VIP room time with a customer and I can't legally DO half the stuff that outcall strippers do.

Unfortunately, there are loads of illigitimate escort services, however, that doesn't mean that all the women they use for bookings know they are or would work for them if they knew. This was the accuser's FIRST outcall stripping assignment, so it's certainly plausible she had no idea whether or not they were upright company or how to determine whether it was or not. I don't know personally any outcall strippers that would use an agency that didn't provide security for all the bookings, but they ALL learned that the hard way.

[bettyellen]

43. you think she has an agency AND a pimp?!? oh, and a bodyguard....LOL.

you have quite the vivid imagination.

[IndianaGreen]

45. She worked for Allure Escort Service

WRAL learned Thursday that she works for Allure Escort Service, which did not return WRAL's calls. The North Carolina Secretary of State's office does not have the business listed as a corporation. There have been no complaints filed with the State Attorney General's Office regarding Allure.

http://www.wral.com/news/8370290/detail.html

[bettyellen]

47. so a pimp would be redundant. plus, she'd actually have to be a whore....

and not hired to dance.

newsflash: she had sex with her boyfriend! you'd have to be desperate to think this matters. inadmissible for damned good reasons.

[IndianaGreen]

49. I don't know what kind of bubble you live in but things are not pretty

in real life, particularly when you have a business that caters to sex, and there are drugs. These things happen every day. Can a prostitute be raped? You bet! Can an exotic dancer be raped? Fer sure! Did a rape take place here? I think that becomes more and more doubtful every day that passes.

May I remind you that the other dancer changed her story after she contacted a PR firm.

Nifong's case is falling apart before our eyes, yet we have people that refuse to smell the coffee!

[bettyellen]

56. not your bubble where men " don't let their girlfriends" .....

you are fricking hilarious. now that i see all this stone age BS is a gag!
you really had me going for a while there! :rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

58. Some men benefit from their girlfriends' work for sex

but they are not the sort of people we would want dating our sister.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

65. and this has to do with the case at hand- only in your mind right?

i thought so.

[LostinVA]

67. This woman is not a prostitute, and saying that is so offensive

I have nothing against sex workers, but using the term "pimp" is doing nothing but smearing the victim. SHE WAS RAPED. Understand that? The SANE's rape kit evidence shows that. Rape. Not sex with her boyfriend. This is not Tawna Brawley, who made up a story because she missed her curfew.

This woman is a college student AND a single mom, who works as an exotic dancer to make money. Would you rather have her work retail or fast food and make little money and have inflexible hours?

I've been reading your posts for a very long time, and am quite shocked at hearing this stuff from you.

[IndianaGreen]

73. That's not what I said

This is what I said: "Boyfriend or pimp, or both?"

I also said that in my part of the country escort services are associated by law enforcement with prostitution and drugs. The alleged victim's own criminal record shows a problem with alcohol.

I didn't say much about this case when it first came to light, but now I am concerned that the prosecutor has engaged in misconduct and that he has shown nothing so far that leads me to believe that Reade Seligmann was involved in any criminal conduct on that fateful night.

Lynch mob mentality on both sides of this case does little to advance justice!

[Spike from MN]

211. But apparently a lynch mob mentality on ONE side

does a lot to advance justice? :wtf:

[not_nameless]

78. how do you know she is not a prostitute? You seem certain

Maybe she didn't want to work retail or fast food and make little money and have inflexible hours so she joined an escort service. Something like Allure escort services...

[LostinVA]

271. WTF?

I'm done with you. Go play some lacrosse or something.

[jberryhill]

85. Why is that offensive?

Nobody that I've seen has said "if she is a prostitute then it can't be rape". Prostitutes are indeed often victims of rape.

Of course a prostitute, any woman, can be a rape victim, and the SANE nurse found injuries consistent with rape.

What is it about prostitutes that you find so offensive?

I don't believe it matters one way or another, but whether you think it is offensive or not, some women are prostitutes whether they live up to your standard of acceptable human beings or not.

She was hired from an escort service for $400. I don't know anything about what an "escort service" is, or whether $400 is the going rate for strippers, but I can't see where it matters one way or the other, or what on earth is so "offensive" about it.

It has no bearing on the situation whatsoever.

[LisaL]

155. Have you seen the SANE report?

Then HTF do you know it shows she was raped? In fact, the DNA in her doesn't not match any of the players. Did she tell the SANE nurse about her "boyfriend" during the rape exam? Did the nurse believe that DNA inside her came from her "rapists" as opposed to her "boyfriend"?
Geez.

[progressivebydesign]

228. Oh.. there's lizzy again, pushing this case.. are you Duke alumni?? n/t

[LisaL]

234. No. Is it a crime to be one, though?

[Moosepoop]

258. Of course not. These fine people are all Duke alumni:

Dan Abrams -- Host of MSNBC's The Abrams Report
David Addington -- Dick Cheney's Chief of Staff
Claude Allen -- White House domestic policy advisor 2005-

There's also:
Kevin Martin -- FCC Chairman
Richard Nixon -- 37th U.S. President
David M. Rubenstein -- Director of the Carlyle Group
Ken Starr -- Special Prosecutor, Bill Clinton impeachment

http://www.nndb.com/edu/510/000068306 /

[jberryhill]

44. What's up with the quotes around "boyfriend"?

police gave the "boyfriend" a cheek swab...

Okay, can someone tell me the difference between a boyfriend and a "boyfriend"?

[bettyellen]

54. a boyfriend doesn't "let" his girl dance for a living.... :rofl:

but a "boyfriend" does.

i can't believe some of the posts here. i feel like it's the 1950's.

[jberryhill]

88. There's no sense in crucifying someone...

...for what rolls off of the keyboard in a casual moment. It is a discussion board, after all.

There's plenty of nuttiness to go around. And plenty of reaction formation. What's really weird is that various participants insist on mischaracterizing what other participants have said - and that goes for both sides - because it seems to provide them an opportunity to say things they wouldn't otherwise say about anyone.

I sincerely doubt that there are large numbers of DU'ers who have horns and carry pitchforks, and making character judgments on the basis of discussion board posts is generally not very accurate.

There's something odd about the way the wire services seem to have kept quotes around "boyfriend". For example, among all of the statistics thrown about in these disucssions, there are some sad statistics that nobody seems to have dug up yet - e.g. most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim.

I mean, you tell me a woman was murdered, and I wonder "who done it".

You tell me a married woman was murdered, and I can tell you who the first suspect is going to be.

People have mentioned things about this woman having been dropped off at the party. A couple of times, I've asked "dropped off by whom?" and there seems to be a severe lack of curiousity about the answer to that question. I have to wonder if the investigation was agenda-driven, if there is a rapist somewhere who is going to avoid prosecution.

Whatever the truth might be, I'd certainly like to know it.

[BrownOak]

90. Always open (24/7)

It's just that earlier on it was mainly defense information getting out. I'm more interested in understanding what happened than anything else.

[jberryhill]

92. Is there an assumption hiding in here:

So, all this hoopla about DNA belonging to some other male just means that she had sex with her boyfriend sometime in the six days prior to the alleged assault. Not a big deal there.

The pubic hair from a white male does go against all the howling about "no evidence of any sexual activity or violent act, not even a hair!!!".

Okay, color me dense.

Does the story say her boyfriend is not a white male?

It seems as if "DNA from the boyfriend" is "no big deal", but a pubic hair from a white male is significant.

Unless her boyfriend is white.

Just a quibble, I suppose.

[not_nameless]

39. and?

>> There's also a white male pubic hair that has been "linked to the case."

brutal rape supposedly happened and all they got is a pubic hair? Sorry, but I don't buy it.
Look around your bathroom and you will find plenty of pubic hair.

[BrownOak]

91. True,

but that doesn't mean that the pubic hair on my floor will end up on anyone else's body. Until the question of where that hair was found is answered guessing what "linked to the case" means is pretty open ended.

[chookie]

100. I haven't seen mention of a white male pubic hair

Not dissing you, but I would appreciate a source link, as this is news to me, and it is an important bit of evidence, if true.

[Moosepoop]

105. Here's a link.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12739861/

The sources also told the Herald Sun that a male pubic hair was also found and possible linked to the case, but because no identifiable DNA was found because the hair lacked a root. But the sources also said the pubic hair was found to have come from a white male.

[jberryhill]

167. It's only important if...

...you believe, as others here apparently do, that black women are not allowed to have white boyfriends.

Someone else had done the same thing - "The DNA of the boyfriend is not important, but the white pubic hair is significant" - when there is utterly nothing in any report which indicates the race of her boyfriend.

The assumption is interesting.

[Moosepoop]

195. When did anyone say that?

Point me to where anyone said that black women are not allowed to have white boyfriends. You can't, since nobody has.You're just putting words in people's mouths -- something you're attempting to do with more and more frequency. That's a hallmark of a person who has nothing better to use in a disagreement -- much like the strawman argument. You're running out of legitimate points to offer, so you resort to twisting words and accusing people of thinking, saying, or holding beliefs that the people in question have not or do not. What a coward.

Since it's me that you're paraphrasing in your post, let me assure you that the race of her boyfriend matters not one whit to me. It's the fact that a white man's pubic hair was recovered from her after all the bellowing about how there was no pubic hair found and that MUST be proof that she wasn't raped by the guys she said raped her. This white man's hair does not prove that she was raped in that house, and if her boyfriend turns out to be white then that's even less proof of her claim.
But as for right now, there was a pubic hair on her that is from a white man, consistent with what she alleged happened to her.

You go right ahead and stretch & twist every single piece of possibly corroborating evidence that comes up if that's what it takes to make yourself feel better about the mounting evidence against the players.

But stop attributing your own shortcomings to others.

[TorchTheWitch]

152. The "boyfriend" voluntarily gave a sample on May 3rd

The "boyfriend" gave a sample for DNA testing on May 3rd obviously to rule him out. Anyone who had recent sex with the alleged victim would be wanted for a sample to avoid running about in circles trying to identify a match they had no ID for. There's other articles that say this...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=1958031&page=1
ABC News is withholding the name of the man because he is apparently not a target of the investigation. Records indicate that Durham, N.C., police gave the "boyfriend'' a cheek swab to collect DNA on May 3, ABC News' Law and Justice Unit has learned exclusively.

Surprised you missed that.

Also, it was a TISSUE sample that the fingernail from the trashcan was tested on. This would not be mucus or earwax or hair, etc. A tissue sample is skin, bone, muscle, organs or connective tissues like ligaments. In this case, the tissue sample was more than likely skin as I find it hard to believe the accuser got a sample of any of the players kidneys under her nail. ;)

Interesting how thoroughly Cheshire twists the facts to make it sound like the sample from the fingernail could have been snot (it's tissue so it can't be snot), they voluntarily handed over the broken fingernail tips (they didn't, the police found them in the trash when they did the search), and that the "boyfriend" is some kind of hooligan "known" to the police when for all we know he's only known to the police for voluntarily giving a DNA sample and supporting the alleged victim. Ah, but this is what defense attorneys do.

[jberryhill]

168. It is not that the "tissue was snot"

The point is that the tissue sample - even if it was her OWN tissue from scratching an itch or picking a scab - would be subject to contamination from anything else in the trashcan.

[TorchTheWitch]

205. huh?

If it was her OWN tissue under the nail they would know that as they know what her own DNA sample looks like. There could be a dozen peoples' DNA under her nail but as long as those dozen samples can be identified it doesn't matter. Contamination is when a person's DNA found under the nail could have gotten there some other way than her coming into contact with that person... if somehow that person's DNA was in the trashcan and THAT's how it got on the nail. The point is, a tissue sample under the nail is less likely to have gotten there by contamination then if the sample was mucus or earwax or some other type of sample more likely to be found in a trashcan, and the defense is actively trying to make it seem that the sample found under her nail could have been mucus or earwax when it wasn't - it was a TISSUE sample.

[jberryhill]

219. I'm not sure you understand the tissue issue

Let's say we take a tissue sample from you - a piece of skin for example - and we are going to extract DNA and see what we have.

And let's say that before we test that tissue sample from you, I spit on it.

When we do our DNA test, we are going to find my DNA, because there are epithelial cells in my spit. That's why DNA can be recovered from things like postage stamp glue that has been licked.

Now, obviously, in this situation, they weren't looking for HER DNA. If an artificial nail pops off - and again I don't know much about artificial nails so you correct me if this doesn't make sense - in my limited imagination it doesn't seem odd that it would take some cuticle with it.

We are talking about a teeny bit of something that resulted from someone scratching someone else (and earlier you said that an artificial nail is going to come off long before you could deeply gouge someone), we are not talking about some huge gob of something. We are certainly not talking about mucuous or earwax, either. Those are secretions, not cells. The reference to someone blowing their nose had to do with the fact that blowing your nose releases lining cells. I don't think you understand that humans are shedding cells all over the place.

So, yes, a piece of her own cuticle on the underside of the nail would be a tissue sample. As would anything picked up from her touching the wounds she reportedly had when she arrived. Putting it in a bathroom traschan would contaminate that sample with the wealth of biological material you'll find in any bathroom trashcan, and you'll get a partial match to whomever was the origin of that material.

[TorchTheWitch]

247. that's pretty much what I said

It just sounded like you meant her own DNA could contaminate the sample.

However, if this contamination for all these various sources in the trashcan were so likely then there would be samples on the nail from all kinds of people. How many sources found on the nail and who they were is more significant. For instance, if found under the nail was a definite match for her own DNA, a partial match to one player and one other source that couldn't be identified partially or definitely to anyone in particular all this supposed contamination is less signicant (particularly if none of the sources could identify either partially or definitely anyone that lived at the house).

By itself the partial match from a sample under her nail doesn't mean much of anything particularly if it comes from someone who lives at the house whose various biological stuff in the trashcan would more than likely outweigh that of guests using the bathroom. But it would add weight to other evidence particularly since the partial belongs to a player she identified with 90% certainty.

On Edit: "tissue issue"... *giggle* *snort*

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evergreen Emerald]

42. what "facts" do you have? Any from an unbiased source?

The only facts you have are filtered through those who have a vested interest one side.

I find it extremely offensive that you call someone who may be a victim of a crime a lying scumbag bitch.

Wait for the facts before you continue to vilify this woman.

[bettyellen]

46. wow, you think a person who has had sex can't be raped?

WTF century are you living in?

what if this was your mom, and it was your dad's sperm? Doh!
you think rape doesn;t happen to nice womin like your mom. snap the fuck put of it.

[IndianaGreen]

48. Let's look at her criminal record, shall we? *** WARNING ***

The alleged victim's criminal record will be evidence presented in court. She fingered Reid Seligmann as a rapist. The date/time stamp on an ATM camera is evidence it wasn't possible for Seligmann to have committed the rape for he wasn't at the house at the time the rape allegedly took place.

*** WARNING ***

While I will not post the accuser's name until such time as the MSM does, I must warn you that her name has already been disclosed publicly by various sources, mostly rightwingers because it suits their own agenda. The links below will disclose her name to anyone going to there, including the North Carolina Department of Corrections website.

*********

The episode started at the Diamond Girls club on Angier Avenue in Durham. According to Larry W. Jones, the owner of Diamond Girls, the woman appeared at the club that night and "tried out," giving lap dances to a few men.

Jones said the manager at the time did not offer the woman a job because she was "acting funny."

She started dancing for a taxi driver, whom she asked for a ride, according to a report from the Durham County Sheriff's Office. While dancing, she took the keys from the driver's pocket without his knowledge and, minutes later, drove off in his taxi.

The cab driver called 911 and a sheriff's deputy responded and saw the blue 1992 Chevrolet Caprice heading east on Angier Avenue near Page Road. The headlights were off and the woman was driving on the wrong side of the road, according to the deputy's report.

http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2006/04/duke-rape-accuser-crystal-gail-mangum.html

http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/apps/offender/offend1?DOCNUM=0801264&SENTENCEINFO=yes&SHOWPHOTO=no&numtimesin=1

[bettyellen]

52. guess what, it doesn't matter.

any woman can be a rape victim.
there isn't some special designation we give women to make them "fair game" to any man, unable to make charges of rape or un-rapable based on the amount of sex or drugs she's done in her lifetime.

much as that would suit you, it's not how the system works. sexworkers are more vulnerable, partially because Neanderthals will argue it's a quibble over money. even if she was a prostitute, it doesn't mean anyone who wants to can fuck her how and when they like.
and again, so what, she fucked her boyfriend, tell me again how that's relevant?
and why are all these dudes pretending the DNA from the nails has disappeared?

[IndianaGreen]

55. All I hear from you is a philosophical diatribe, but no evidence

that points to the culpability of indicted Reade Seligmann.

Her criminal record will be evidence presented in trial as to her credibility as a witness, together with the DNA results which by all accounts do not implicate Mr. Seligmann. Considering that Seligmann was picked from a photo by the accuser, and the lack of evidence implicating him together with the strong alibi of the ATM photo, I think that the accuser's credibility will be successfully challenged.

[bettyellen]

60. unlike you, i don't assume we'd have 1/2 the evidence- or that what we

are hearing from either attorney is 100% true, or not biased.

from what i see, many posters didn;t even read this OP and assumed the fingernail DNA disappeared- that shows a lot of ignorance and no logic whatsoever.
i'm glad you noticed i'm not frying the team members, just constantly reminding people there is so much we don't know.
i can see you enjoy being ironic and goofing around like this is the fifties and her sex life is on trial, and i just want to thanks you for injecting some levity into the thread. it is pretty absurd, you're right!! :rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

61. Sex is not on trial, what is on trial is a rape charge

and what has come into question is Nifong's rush to judgment and the credibility of the chief prosecutor witness.

[bettyellen]

63. oh nonsense. you yourself said the DNA comes from a "pimp"! what a joke.

what kind of judgemental BS is that?
YOU put her sex life on trial, don;t try and weasel out of it now.
YOU have the prudish notion a real man wouldn't allow someone he fucks to go do a strip.
You think her private life is one bit your business, and you are tripping. Luckily the law doesn't agree with you either.
I remind you, this is not the 1950's, so get over it.

[jberryhill]

89. There is a certain amount of judgmental BS...

...in the attitude that if a prostitute is raped by a pimp, then it is somehow not a crime.

Sorry, I'm not going to buy that.

If a prostitute is raped by a pimp, then a woman has been raped by a man, and that man needs to be arrested, tried, and convicted.

It is no less a crime in that situation as than in any other rape.

The thing I can't fathom, and which frankly shocks the heck out of me, is which among the various posters are dismissing that type of situation as something that does not, in their view, count as a crime worthy of investigation.

[chookie]

101. Who has made that claim?

I am unaware of anyone of DU who has made the claim that a pimp cannot rape a prostitute. While we may disagree on the interpretation of pieces of evidence, we all join you in your position that a pimp can rape a prostitute, and who should be arrested, tried, and punished if guilty.

[jberryhill]

170. Ironically, the claim can be read between the lines of...

...those who "support the victim" only so long as the suspects are people they don't like. There is a marked lack of curiousity about whatever else may have happened to the victim at any place other than 610 N. Buchanan Street. Despite the fact that the players said she was disoriented and injured upon arrival, those witness accounts to what may be a serious crime committed prior to midnight can be ignored.

Any suggestion that the victim may have been raped by an acquaintance (the most common form of rape) prior to arrival is dismissed as "smearing the victim". Accordingly, if it is in fact the truth, then a rapist goes free.

Another example is the insistence that the cabbie was correct in saying the women left in a white car. Well, the security guard and the police have the women arriving at the Kroger in a dark car. If you want to insist the cabbie's memory is correct, then there is another car - and potentially another suspect - in between leaving the house and arriving at the Kroger. But some people's "squelch" knob is turned up way too high that they aren't interested in a comprehensive approach to figuring out who might have attacked this victim.

And that is very sad.

[bettyellen]

177. i see people wanting to discount her story with crazy made up theories

she had a pimp, she didn;t pay taxes, she's a drug addict.... therefore she made this all up.
i don;t see it either, but i sense that's the underlying attitude. it matters less because she's a sex worker.

[jberryhill]

188. Wrong Again

What matters is that she has injuries consistent with rape.

A violent crime is a violent crime, no matter who is the victim.

Witnesses at the house report that she was disoriented and injured upon arrival.

You don't care about that, do you?

I'm fully persuaded that this woman is a rape victim. I further believe she may have been traumatized and/or drugged to the extent that it was difficult for her to convey what happened that evening. I'm amazed at the comments of those whose concern is only dependent on who did it.

You are the one saying that if she doesn't meet your moral standards, then she "made it up". I don't believe she "made up" her injuries consistent with rape.

I can only speak for myself, but my POV is the same in any criminal case - the prosecution has the burden of proving what happened. If there is a reasonable theory that is consistent with the evidence, but inconsistent with the charge, then the result should be no conviction. So, it's not specific to this case or this type of crime. And if the prosecution is NOT throwing darts at his own theory in order to fill in anticipated gaps, then he's NOT doing his job. The last thing I need when preparing a simple civil case is someone who agrees with me - that's not helpful.

[bettyellen]

191. i never expressed moral standards, but keep making shit up about my

posts. as i said, i can't be bothered with the nutty theories.

if you care about the morals issue, maybe you ought to spar with those who were actually putting the dancer down, making unfounded assumptions about her because they have a problem with strippers?
oh, but you don;t want to argue with them, because you share pet theories: was it was a pimp or boyfriend that dropped her off (in the grassy knoll), and how that's what really matters....

what patriarchal self-important bullshit. delusional to boot.
:rofl:

[jberryhill]

208. Must everything be a personal attack with you?

Look, witnesses said she arrived injured and disoriented.

You don't care. The identity of whom she was with when she might have sustained those injuries doesn't matter to you. That's fine. But why do you have to be so consistently insulting?

Anyone who needs to put someone else down - including yourself and those who make disparaging comments about the victim - discredits themselves just fine without any sparring.

There are also those who consider that saying a stripper, or even a prostitute, can be raped is some sort of put-down. That is more a reflection on one's personal values than it is upon how the law looks upon violent crime.

I'm glad you find something to roll on the floor and laugh about here. I really don't find the topic to be all that funny.

[bettyellen]

217. boys at the party said what?

stop giving me stuff to laugh about, and i'll stop.

[jberryhill]

221. Oh I forgot...

Because you know they are guilty, then your mind is closed to stepping back and looking at the information comprehensively.

http://www.kgmb.com/kgmb/print.cfm?sid=1184&storyID=7796

CBS News correspondent Trish Regan met with defense attorneys, who showed her time-stamped photographs taken at the lacrosse party where the alleged rape occurred. In all, she saw 23 photos, which attorneys say prove their clients' innocence — in part because they show that the woman was already bruised and cut when she arrived at the house.

The women arrived separately, and left together.

Unless the green Honda belonged to the AV, that means *someone* dropped her off at the house - *someone* with very little concern for her condition or her safety, apparently.

You're right, the possibility that a woman was bruised and cut is just hilarious. Because everything the defense says is a lie, then the photos were doctored to change the time when she is shown to have cuts and bruises.

A woman with cuts and bruises, who is behaving erratically, and later is examined and found to have injuries consistent with rape. Oh, yeah, now I get it. Gosh, that's just funny stuff. I can see why you find it so laughable.

[bettyellen]

225. wow, another news flash from the defense team, thanks!!!

i love how you serve them up as gospel and feign concern for the dancer.
what part of that's not funny? c'mon now, really.

[jberryhill]

230. Precisely....

...like I said, because you know they are guilty, then it doesn't matter that it was a REPORTER to whom the pictures were shown that described the injuries visible in the photographs while she was still dancing.

But we know that the timestamps on the pictures were changed, and her cuts were photo-shopped in. But even if the timestamps were changed, it seems odd that she got up and danced after being brutally attacked.

I don't know whether any of the players are guilty. Several of them might be. I don't have an interest in their guilt or innocence.

What's interesting is that if any of the players are guilty of rape, then there is a whole slew of other charges coming. Because any non-rapist player who told investigators that she had cuts when she arrived is, in your view, necessarily guilty of obstructing justice by lying to the investigators.

Now, maybe I'm just weird, but if I wasn't guilty of a crime in the first place, then I wouldn't go on and commit one during the investigation.

I guess these guys are just getting lousy legal advice.

[bettyellen]

282. since you continue to put words in my mouth and i'm not the only one here

who says thtat. i'm done with you.
you hear what you WANT to. not what is said. it's tiresome. i'm glad you finally noticed all you were doing was quoting defense attorney reports. see ya.

[bettyellen]

290. please read before you post, okay?

post #52. i said it before you ever did. yes, you can rape a prostitute.
(because i think it;s wrong to assume she was a junkie whore with a pimp means only i think it's wrong to assume- and make shit up)

thanks for again assuming you're the only enlightened person here.
your responses in general, have had very little to do with what i or other posters here. you take leaps that continually leave you way off base.

[jberryhill]

297. Well we can open a thread about me, if you think its necessary

I simply object to language like "junkie whore" and "lying skanky ho" and other terms that keep popping up, no matter what someone's take on the strength of the case under discussion.

If you are attributing that kind of language to me, then I suppose neither of us is reading.

That's why I have mentioned "reaction formation", since the topic apparently gives some people the impression that they can either say such things directly or make them up and pin them on someone else.

Any discussion of the progress of any popular crime story is going to involve distorted information from all sides, and hypothesis testing.

It's clear that the partial match thing is a point in the prosecution's favor. We can all decide not to discuss anything, but just because someone says, "Gee, maybe it was contaminated in the trashcan" is not "making stuff up", it is the normal process of looking at a bunch of facts, not always consistent, and thinking of the range of hypotheses that might fit those facts.

But if certain hypotheses are deemed "unthinkable" then one has a problem with the process of rational inquiry.

For example, one hypothesis discussed quite a bit is whether the players may have drugged her, which would detract from her ability to clearly relate, or remember, what happened. Discussing that possibility, or even the possibility of involuntary versus voluntary intoxication, in an attempt to arrive at consistent scenarios, is not accusing someone of being a "junkie who deserved to get raped".

[bettyellen]

312. LOL, nope. no thread needed, and not attributing that stuff to you

and thanks for asking instead of assuming. what i was trying to explain is- i keep saying her past matters not, yet you attacked me for making moral judgments against her. not true.

[not_nameless]

81. light bulb lit up

maybe those 3 men who raped her years ago, did it again!

[Moosepoop]

193. I'd say that bulb is pretty dim. n/t

[Spike from MN]

212. Bwahahahaha! Nothing like calling it like you see it!

Good one Moosepoop! :rofl:

[LostinVA]

68. Two things

1.) So frigging what.

2.) Look at the criminal record of the accused.

[IndianaGreen]

72. Since her criminal record would be admissible in a court of law

because it goes to her credibility as a witness, and since there is no DNA to connect Reade Seligmann to the rape charge (and we have the date/time stamp on the ATM camera), and he has not criminal record, and the only thing you got is two conflicting statements by the other stripper and the accused picking Seligmann from a team photo, I dare say that as far as Seligmann is concerned he stands a good chance of being acquitted.

[jberryhill]

76. That doesn't go to credibility

Prior crimes can be admitted on the issue of credibility if the prior crime is a "crimen falsi" - that is a crime involving deception or dishonesty of some kind. This doesn't seem to be that, so I can't see the point of admitting it. It doesn't show a pattern of dishonesty.

By the same token, the OTHER stripper's embezzlement charge IS relevant to credibility, because embezzlement is squarely within the class of crimes that are relevant to trustworthiness. Credibility of a witness is always relevant.

Saying "look at the players' crimes" runs into the same relevance standard. We've discussed Finnerty to death, and one hypothesis about Finnerty's indictment is Nifong's knowledge that it would immediately trigger the proceeding in DC, what's Seligman's prior?

[IndianaGreen]

77. Seligmann has no prior record

and he is the one with the strongest alibi, and he is also the one I think was unjustly indicted by Nifong.

Remember that the accuser did make a previous rape charge against another man years earlier. There is conflicting versions about this (her father and the man in question), but I am sure that it may be looked at by both sides before trial.

[jberryhill]

80. No, LostinVa said "look at the criminal record of the accused"

So, I want to know.

There are two accused.

Finnerty had the assault in DC.

Seligman had... what?

LostinVa said to look at the criminal record of the accused, and I want to know what Seligman's record is.

[jberryhill]

82. Okay... Looking...

Two accused.

Finnerty has an alleged prior assault pending trial in DC.

What is Seligman's criminal record?

[Spike from MN]

215. Apparently you haven't been paying attention LIV.

Any woman that has a criminal record CAN'T be raped. EVER. That's just how it works. Please try to review the FACTS before you post.

:sarcasm: <- Yeah, I shouldn't need to add this tag but apparently I do.

[LostinVA]

269. You're right, Spike, I'm just a crazy mixed up kid

Thinking this is 2006 instead of 1936.... D'oh! Thanks for setting me back on the straight and narrow....

[pnwmom]

99. I hadn't read before that she had two previous group-rape

allegations in her past.

Maybe that, combined with drug or alcohol use, could mean she is seriously disturbed. Could she have been experiencing post traumatic stress syndrome? Could she have only fragmentary memory of the events that day? For example, a person in the course of an alcoholic blackout can be walking and talking but not remember much of what they were doing the next day.

Clearly something happened during those 24 hrs. to traumatize her; but it is not so clear to me what or when or where.

[Moosepoop]

104. She had ONE prior rape allegation in her past, not two.

There's been a lot of confusion over this.

In 1996, when she was 18, she reported having been raped several years earlier, at the age of 14, by her boyfriend of the time and two of his friends.

There weren't two incidents, just a span of several years between the claimed incident and the reporting of it. It was all the same allegation of having been raped in the neighboring town of Creedmoor at the age of 14.

[Moosepoop]

138. Nice job of helping to fulfill the the rightwingers' agenda.

*** WARNING ***

While I will not post the accuser's name until such time as the MSM does, I must warn you that her name has already been disclosed publicly by various sources, mostly rightwingers because it suits their own agenda. The links below will disclose her name to anyone going to there, including the North Carolina Department of Corrections website.

*********

Despite your disclaimer, you created an opportunity to get the AV's name out here on this forum. Nah, you didn't post her name, you just linked to two places that plaster it all over. Oh yes, and all but a neon sign in your post announcing that her identity could be found inside.

You probably didn't violate any DU rules, but you sure as hell violated a low ethical standard, at least in my book.

Again, nice job. I hope you're proud of yourself.

[LostinVA]

272. Oh, I'm very sure he's proud of himself

He's expending so much energy smearing the victim not to be.

[TorchTheWitch]

156. criminals can't be raped?

First prostitutes and strippers can't be raped, and now apparantly criminals can't be raped either. Gotcha. :eyes:

The timeline is that of the defense based on a series of photos taken by someone at the party with a camera phone. The timestamps on those photos are easily changed if one wants to change them. There is also evidence that a photo timestamped as being taken after the party was over of the accuser either getting out of or being put into a dark colored car show her wearing the outfit she was wearing when she arrived at the party yet we also know from those same set of photos that she left the party in an entirely different outfit presumably her costume. And now the defense is whining that the photos were ever released to the public... well, duh.

Even according to the timeline from that series of photos, Seligmann WAS there at the time of the alleged rape, but the defense claims he wasn't there long enough to commit a rape. How long does it take to forcefully stick your dick in a woman's mouth that doesn't want it there? How long that dick may have been there is immaterial... the point at which someone is raped is at the MOMENT OF PENATRATION. Therefore, Seligmann was at the party with plenty of time to rape this woman EVEN according to the defenses' own timeline.

[IndianaGreen]

165. I don't trust the time stamp in the photos taken in the party because

they can be altered.

I do trust the time stamp on the bank's ATM camera, and it shows that Reade Seligmann was taking money out of the ATM at the time the alleged rape took place. You can't ignore either the statement by the cabbie, and the difference between the time he picked up Seligmann and another man, and the chaotic conditions he found when he went back for another fare.

[chookie]

173. A minor point, but...

...regarding the deliberate alteration of camera-phone time stamps: if this in fact occurred, wouldn't that indicate a wider conspiracy among persons attending the party and premeditated calculated collusion to distort evidence, mislead investigators, and falsely construct alibis for the attackers?

IMHO -- that scenario is rather too elaborate.

[IndianaGreen]

175. I agree that such an scenario is rather elaborate

which is why I think the date stamp on the ATM video cam is unassailable. The advocates for the alleged victim will claim that the date stamps were altered on the cameras, and that the cell phone calls were choreographed, but they cannot challenge an ATM date stamp that coincides with the time the rape was alleged to have been committed. They also ignore the convenient change in the account of the other dancer, and the fact she contacted a PR firm asking what she could gain if her account supported the accuser.

There are some serious problems with this case!

on edit:

Here is info on the second dancer, Kim Roberts:

2nd Dancer At First Doubted Accuser's Story

POSTED: 9:07 am EDT April 21, 2006
UPDATED: 9:31 am EDT April 21, 2006

DURHAM, N.C. -- At first, a stripper who performed at a Duke University lacrosse team party doubted the story of a colleague who told police she was dragged into a bathroom and raped.

Now, Kim Roberts isn't so sure.

<snip>

The attorneys claim Roberts at first told a member of the defense team that she did not believe the accuser's allegations. They say she has changed her story to gain favorable treatment in a criminal case against her. They note she also e-mailed a New York public relations firm, asking in her letter for advice on "how to spin this to my advantage.''

"We believe ... her story has been motivated by her own self-interest,'' said attorney Bill Thomas, who represents one of the uncharged players. "I think that a jury will ultimately have to decide the question of her credibility.''

Roberts, 31, was arrested on March 22 _ eight days after the party _ on a probation violation from a 2001 conviction for embezzling $25,000 from a photofinishing company in Durham where she was a payroll specialist, according to documents obtained by the AP.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8878776/detail.html

[chookie]

214. You're correct

The ATM evidence -- an independent timestamp that also visually identifies Selligman as the person conducting the transaction is unassailable. It is critical evidence.

[TorchTheWitch]

243. yep, and maybe it is elaborate

Doesn't mean it isn't possible. And there are other events that point toward an elaborate deception: Dan Flannery lyinging about his name, how many people would be at the party and what team they were on when he booked the strippers; the use of false names and team numbers to identify each other at the party which was found in interviewing the players to have been purposely done to cause confusion as to who was who if some time in the future it would be benificial to the players to be difficult to identify; the disappearance of the accuser's street clothes, one shoe, purse and wallet from the scene while her other belongings were found at the scene when the defense's own photos show that she didn't take those disappeared items with her when she left.

If you were going to commit a rape, or any other crime for that matter, would you not do what you could to cover your tracks even if in order to do so it seemed rather elaborate? And actually, I don't find any of this to be particularly elaborate.

[jberryhill]

245. Well of course they knew they were going to commit a crime...

They knew they were going to engage in underage drinking.

If Finnerty was there, he knew he would be violating the terms of his diversion.

They all knew damned well that they were violating adult entertainment laws (since the audience seems to have been largely under 21).

They also knew they'd be breaking rules imposed by the school and the team.

Of course they knew those things.

I doubt they were planning on on writing "Dear Mom" letters about the drunken party they had with the strippers.

And while they could have turned items left behind into the Durham PD lost & found, or gotten a receipt from the thrift shop for a tax deduction, I'm not sure what use they might have had for one shoe etc., unless someone wanted to be Prince Charming off in search of Cinderella the next day.

[TorchTheWitch]

248. Actually

I'm pretty sure in NC you only have to be 18 to legally partake of adult entertainment as long as there's no drinking. Like in PA and NJ there's BYOB strip clubs where you only have to be 18 to oggle naked girls and play lap dance games with them... you just can't drink in those clubs. Come to think of it, I believe NC is more lax that clubs can actually serve alcohol just not to the customers that are under 21.

And Cinderella was a BLONDE WHITE girl with a slipper (not SHOE) made of GLASS... so just quit trying to muddy the waters! ;)

[jberryhill]

262. That's clubs

But whether one can conduct adult entertainment in a residential area with 46 people attending is probably an open question.

The point is, though, that it is a given that they knew ahead of time they were up to no good.

[TorchTheWitch]

264. It doesn't matter

Whether it's in clubs or outcall, anyone partaking of adult entertainment only has to be 18. If there was anyone at the party not yet 18, that would be a problem. Incidently, you only have to be 18 to BE a stripper whether in a club or outcall.

[jberryhill]

277. If you say so...

...it's not relevant to the point - i.e. they knew they were preparing to engage in prohibited conduct in advance, whether by school or team regulation, local ordinance, or state law.

As far as liquor licenses go in North Carolina, there is this:

§ 18B‑1005.1. Sexually explicit conduct on licensed premises.

(a) It shall be unlawful for a permittee or his agent or employee to knowingly allow or engage in any of the following kinds of conduct on his licensed premises:

(1) Any conduct or entertainment by any person whose genitals are exposed or who is wearing transparent clothing that reveals the genitals;

(2) Any conduct or entertainment that includes or simulates sexual intercourse, masturbation, sodomy, bestiality, oral copulation, flagellation, or any act that includes or simulates the penetration, however slight, by any object into the genital or anal opening of a person's body; or

(3) Any conduct or entertainment that includes the fondling of the breasts, buttocks, anus, vulva, or genitals.

(b) Supervision. – It shall be unlawful for a permittee to fail to superintend in person or through a manager the business for which a permit is issued.

(c) Exception. – This section does not apply to persons operating theaters, concert halls, art centers, museums, or similar establishments that are primarily devoted to the arts or theatrical performances, when the performances that are presented are expressing matters of serious literary, artistic, scientific, or political value. (2003‑382, s. 2.)

[TorchTheWitch]

292. That's pretty much just like the PA law

In PA we have to wear g-strings and pasties where alcohol is served. The full nude clubs are BYOB only which are the ones the 18 year old are allowed into (they just aren't allowed to drink). At least in NC they don't make you wear the pasties.

This kind of reminds me of that story awhile back about the mom that hired a stripper for her son's 16th birthday party in which I believe both the mom and the stripper got busted.

Yeah, this one...

http://www.courttv.com/people/2005/0531/stripper_ap.html
A mother faces criminal charges after she hired a stripper to dance at her 16-year-old son's birthday party.

Anette Pharris, 34, has been indicted by a grand jury on charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor and involving a minor in obscene acts. The boy's father, the stripper and two others also face charges.

[jberryhill]

298. There's probably any number of statutes...

...that the players can be nailed on, both municipal and state.

I'd personally like to see them get nailed on every charge possible.

[LisaL]

157. Doh? What did she say during her exam?

Did she say she had recent sex?
Or didn't she? So the nurse would think that DNA inside her came from rape?
A woman who has sex can be raped. But WTF is the evidence this one was?
Doh?

[chookie]

232. Not sure the SANE would take that kind of evidence

The SANE, in my understanding, provides a compassionate, non-judgemental and supportive environment for someone who claims to have been sexually assaulted -- they deal with the emotional aftermath of an attack, as well as expertly *collect* forensic evidence.

A SANE is an important participant in the collection of evidence, but it is not their task to determine definitively if a sexual assault took place.
It is up to investigative law enforcement and forensic experts to interpret the evidence, and for the courts to judge it -- not the SANE.

If she claimed to have had recent consensual intercourse to the SANE prior or after the alleged sexual assault, it would have been duly noted. She would not be pressed to disclose this info to the SANE. It is a matter of conjecture whether she reported recent sex with the non-Duke Lacrosse player i.e. boyfriend to investigating detectives.

Lizzy -- you might be interested in my post 209, which presents the battery of tests the evidence the SANE makes possible.

[jberryhill]

281. The SANE would not know about results of DNA testing at that time

and it is safe to assume that the SANE's examination was competent.

[Moosepoop]

31. A number of posters seem to think this is bad for the prosecution.

This is good for the prosecution.

Not as good as semen, pubic hair, and skin samples matching the three suspected players would have been, but still good.

I don't get all the crowing on this thread.

The latest DNA results bolster the AV's allegations, not prove that they're false. There was a pubic hair from a white male. If there was no sexual contact, there wouldn't have been a pubic hair, now would there?

There was human tissue under a fingernail, consistent with her story of scratching a player.

None of the new stuff is rock solid or conclusive, but it's more than there was before, and it points more to her telling the truth than to her having lied. It's all in how you wish to view it. Obviously, there's a difference in how we view it. I do think it's premature to be declaring the case dead in the water. I'm betting that the 3rd player gets indicted Monday.

[IndianaGreen]

34. How do you determine gender from a pubic hair that has no DNA?

Pagones v. Maddux, Mason and Sharpton

Tawana Brawley Grand Jury Report

In November of 1987, a 15-year-old girl named Tawana Brawley was found in upstate New York, covered with feces and racial slurs written in charcoal. Brawley, who is black, claimed to have been abducted and raped by six white law enforcement officers.

A decade later, the men who advised Brawley after the alleged incident -- Al Sharpton, Alton Maddox, and lawyer C. Vernon Mason -- are being sued by one of those six men: Steven Pagones, then a local prosecutor, now an assistant state attorney general.

In a trial that began December 3, 1997 in a Duchess County, New York courtroom, Pagones sought damages for defamation that escalated during the course of the trial from $150 million to $395 million, but returned to $150 million during the eventual damages phase.

Brawley, now 25 and called Maryam Muhammad, appeared after 10-year silence at a Brooklyn rally the night before her advisors' trial began to insist once more that her charges are true.

Her case was ultimately thrown out in 1988 when a grand jury determined that her story was not credible. Justice S. Barrett Hickman of the New York State Supreme Court has allowed that report to be included as evidence in the current trial.

On July 13, 1998, after a trial lasting almost eight months, a jury found the three advisors liable for defaming Pagones.

http://www.courttv.com/archive/legaldocs/newsmakers/tawana/

[Moosepoop]

37. Gee, I don't know. I'm not a DNA scientist. Ask one of them.

What does your Tawana Brawley grand jury report have to do with your question?

[IndianaGreen]

41. A lot of people were made fools of by Tawana Brawley

including victims' advocates.

[chookie]

102. You silly girl!

Don't you get it that this is one of the most well-planned and executed racist elitist conspiracies in American history? (Rape conspiracies are pretty rare, too. ) No doubt they spent weeks stalking vulnerable strippers, assembling the roofies, discussing how to eliminate or disguise semen and saliva evidence by use of condoms, etc as a group, programming false times into their video cells phones, giving their cell phones to other LaCrosse players to make calls to make it look as though the perps had an alibi? Are you too thick to realize that these privileged young men bribed the neighbor, the cab driver, AND the bank where the ATM transaction took place, to falsify evidence? Are you so ignorant of the cultural and historical factors behind this case that you actually believe that the Durham and Duke police have credibility as law enforcement and investigators when they are obviously bull-necked racist and sexist crackers who are insensitive to crime victims? You also seem not to comprehend that this case is merely the latest in the continuous history of rape of black women in the Confederacy -- in fact, the Yankees charged in the case CHOSE Duke only to partake freely in its despicable embrace of rape entitlement.

I didn't think so. :hi:

[Moosepoop]

139. So you ask a question in the subject line...

then fill your post with a completely unrelated bunch of text?? ...Mmmkay.

It wouldn't be victims' advocates I'd be worried about looking foolish, if I were you.

Anyway, I'd much rather be a victims' advocate than a victims' oppressor. But that's just me.

[laureloak]

93. She was in their bathroom.

Of course she could have picked up a pubic hair there. Yuk.

The players found the artifical fingernail in the trashcan in the bathroom and turned it over to the police. I don't think anyone trying to hide a rape would have done that.

Innocent until proven guilty, RIGHT?

[LisaL]

158. I think that pubic hair was just a false rumor anyway.

[TorchTheWitch]

160. They DID NOT turn it over to police

That's the spin from the defense. The police DISCOVERED the nails in the trashcan when they conducted their search.

The players disappeared her street clothes, her one shoe and her wallet and purse and forgot to check the trash for anything else of hers. The idea that they handed over her nails is ridiculous since no one is able to find her other belongings that disappeared from the scene.

[LisaL]

159. What pubic hair from white male?

Do you have a link to that information?

[chookie]

164. First time I've heard of that

I would be very interested in reading the report this evidence is revealed in. I hope someone posts the link.

[BrownOak]

192. Here you go

http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-733481.html

[chookie]

223. Thanks! n/t

[LisaL]

237. Souses said it?

When the DNA results came back, where is the analysis of this hair?

[TorchTheWitch]

250. like they WOULDN'T do an analysis?

They find a pubic hair for a white male on her and the prosecution wouldn't do an analysis of it for some reason? Yeah right. Rest assured they'll pluck pubes from all the suspects and have a microscopic comparison done. You can pretty much bank on that.

[Moosepoop]

253. Lizzy, are you soused?

Or are you asking if Dr. Souss said it? Or what? :shrug:

[TorchTheWitch]

249. another link - pubic hair

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12739861/from/RSS/
The sources also told the Herald Sun that a male pubic hair was also found and possible linked to the case, but because no identifiable DNA was found because the hair lacked a root. But the sources also said the pubic hair was found to have come from a white male.

[DubyaSux]

33. Meanwhile...

....the coach was forced to resign and the team's season was cancelled.

But the players have to be guilty in the face of no evidence because they are white (/s).

By the way...who got the stripper this gig? That would seem to be fairly important to this story.

[IndianaGreen]

50. She worked for Allure Escort Service

April 24, 2006 — A Duke University student and lacrosse team captain calls Allure Escort Service to order two strippers. He says it's for a bachelor party, but the dancers arrive to a gathering of college boys, many drinking and some underage.

Is this just your average Monday night at college?

ABC News spoke with students and recent college graduates from around the country. All of them wanted to speak anonymously given the delicate nature of the topic, and all said the same thing: They had seen strippers at parties on or near campus, often at fraternity and athletic team parties celebrating birthdays or new pledges.


ABC News also heard from strippers in the Durham, N.C., area, some of whom did "outcalls" — visits to in-house parties like the one held at the lacrosse house on March 13, the scene of an alleged rape that has generated national headlines.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=1882072&page=1

The North Carolina Secretary of State's office does not have the business listed as a corporation. There have been no complaints filed with the State Attorney General's Office regarding Allure.

http://www.wral.com/news/8370290/detail.html

[Moosepoop]

140. We heard you the first time, in post #45.

OK, so the name of the escort service is Allure Escort. Your point is???

Allure is not listed with the Secretary of State as a corporation. Your point is???

Allure has no record of complaints with the Attorney General's office. Your point is???

There must be a point, or you wouldn't keep posting the same information.

BTW, why does another of your posts in this same thread link to an place that says she was working for "Bunny Hole Entertainment"?

Your links are contradicting each other.

[Marie26]

300. The point is:

to provide enough information that people can Google her name. That's the point.

[Marie26]

299. thanks so much.

We really appreciate all your efforts to post the rape victim's occupation, name & life history. Kudos! You do know that the woman in this case is living in hiding after receiving death threats, right? The more her name is publicized, the more her own security is endangered, and the more the media's agreement not to publish her name becomes meaningless. You & all the other people who have posted the woman's personal information have helped to make women think twice before pressing rape charges in the future. It's not illegal, but I think it's pretty unethical. Just IMO.

[jberryhill]

74. The Players Were Properly Penalized

For the fact of having the party with the alcohol and strippers.

Whether something else happened remains to be seen.

But I'm not joining a pity party over the consequences thus far for underage drinking and the range of ADMITTED misbehavior on their part here.

[IndianaGreen]

75. I agree with you there, these are not "boys" as some portray them

at a minimum, they violated the school's code of conduct for students, and the coach resigned because he failed to exercise proper supervision of his players.

Now, as to the rape allegations, that's an entirely differenct ball game.

[laureloak]

94. Unfortunately, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Racism against whites. Especially those in private schools.

[LostinVA]

273. Yup, this case is about racism against whites, that's for damned sure

Has nothing to do with violence against women or a possible crime being committed. Glad that old black DA is... wait, he's white. Glad all those black people running NC media are smearing the poor boys... wait, the publishers and editors of most6 NC papers, WRAL, etc. are white. Hmmm..... Well, Jesse Jackson is black, and he spoke up for the victim, so it IS all about racism against whites! You're right! Damn! I'm been blinded! This white girl has finally seen the light -- THANK YOU LAURELOAK!

I can't believe Jesse Jackson nd that drug-addled, skanky ho are pilloring these poor white boys from a private university... because they are such a discriminated against demographic. Damn those racist blacks! Control the power, legal, and law enforcement structure in NC and the US. Who the hell do they think they are???

[NastyDiaper]

51. The only side to take on this issue..

.. is that it should have been kept private. The only thing we know for sure is that either the accused, or the accuser are being unfairly victimized.

[LostinVA]

70. Correct -- a sane post

[0007]

268. I concur

[FreakinDJ]

79. More phony DNA evidence

This does it for me. Nifong is definitely boarder line guilty of malicious prosecution. First this cooked up DNA and now the SANE report injuries consistent with looks like a cooked up story too

Rape Accuser Had Photo ID'd Possible DNA Match

According to defense attorneys, police found four stick-on acrylic fingernails in a trash can at 610 Buchanan St., the house where the party took place. The tissue connected to the possible DNA match was found under one of those fingernails.
http://www.nbc17.com/news/9203288/detail.html

Ok to believe her version of events you have to realize she is portraying a struggle for her life where one of the students is chocking her.

1. You are asked to believe when she scratched/clawed her attacker she didn't draw any blood - that would have provided a very DNA rich sample. I believe a full profile/100% match would have been made.

2. The tissue was only found under 1 of the fingernails. Kind of hard for me to imagine in a struggle for her life she would have used only 1 finger to defend herself.

3. stick-on nails if there was any DNA in the trash they were sure to stick to it

Of course the article does not provide the means to determine if identical material was found underneath all 4 fingernails, but given the use of a secondary testing facility and the importance placed on this case I feel it safe to assume they checked all 4 fingernails

[Moosepoop]

144. You've really lost it, haven't you?

Let me see if I follow your gist, here.

Because her press-on nails were pushed off during a struggle, without drawing blood first -- this is proof to you that both the DNA and the medical report were "cooked up"??

Who did the cooking? The dancer? Nifong? The nurse? The doctor? The lab?
All of the above? :rofl: It's now a vast conspiracy!!!

I doubt that the dancer only used one finger to defend herself. But since she's not here to defend herself from increasingly nonsensical allegations, I've got one finger for ya. :thumbsdown:

[TorchTheWitch]

161. stick on nails easily pop off

and with enough force will pop off BEFORE being able to gouge someone. If they've been on for awhile, they'll pop off just by breathing on them. Ever worn stick on nails? I have. When they pop off they usually take a thin layer of the underlying real nail with them or the adhesive is left on the real nail and not on the fake one, therefore, no adhesive will necessarily be on the surface of the fake nail. The adhesive on stick on nails is a form of superglue but isn't nearly as effective as liquid or gel superglue (nail glue is superglue). Anyone with experience with press on nails who expects them to stay on for a length of time and types or does other hard use things with their hands would use a separate superglue product to glue them on better. Although I prefer my own nails, I sometimes wear stick on ones to work when I either don't have the time or don't feel like polishing or fixing the polish on my real ones. I know from experience that not even cigarette ashes will stick to a popped off stick on fake nail. In finding out how easily press on nails pop off with hard use, I use superglue to put them on. The glue that they come with only adheres when used immediately and they don't re-stick... found that out by taking one off to reposition it (once it comes off, the glue either stays on the real nail and instantly dries or it dries instantly on the fake nail.

[jberryhill]

190. I have a question....

...since I'm completely ignorant on the subject of stick-on nails. The only thing I know about them consists of twenty year old memories of TV ads for Lee Press-On Nails.

The operative assumption about the nails from the trashcan appears to be that she had been wearing them and they came off.

So, pending more grist from the daily leaks, I have some questions about stick-on nails.

Do these things come with some sort of adhesive on them, or do you have to put that on separately? I gather there are different kinds of stick-on nails?

If they come off easily, do women who use them carry spares?

What caught my attention was:

I know from experience that not even cigarette ashes will stick to a popped off stick on fake nail.

What about a fake nail that hadn't been popped off, but one which was discarded before applying it - i.e. someone applies glue to a stick-on nail, decides it is the wrong size or otherwise doesn't use it, and then tosses it?

[TorchTheWitch]

251. The amazing world of stick-on nails

They come with a superglue type adhesive already on them, and you peel off the protective tape that covers the adhesive and keeps air from getting at it which dries it, and stick it on your real nail. However, I'm finding more and more companies are selling the stick-on nails with a little separate tube of glue to stick them on because the ones that have the adhesive already on them generally just suck... you have to stick each nail on immediately after taking off the protective tape or the adhesive dries too much before you can stick it on your real nail, and if you have to pull it off to reposition it, forget it, it's already too late - the glue's dried. Also, if they've been hanging around on the drugstore shelf for awhile you can peel off the protective tape and find the adhesive has already dried out. The ones with the adhesive already on them are quickly becoming "old-fashioned".

When they first came out with these things (20 years or so ago?) the adhesive was much like double-sided sticky tape, but they stayed on so badly that just zipping your pants or putting your hand in a pocket would make the nails pop off. And naturally, if you could even find the popped off nail(s) again there'd be hair, lint, dirt and other crud stuck to the adhesive, so trying to put it back on was a joke.

I stopped at the 24 hour CVS on the way home from work tonight for shampoo, nail polish and other girlie stuff and couldn't even find any of the "old-fashioned" stick-on nails. Now they even have stick-on short nails where barely any of the nail goes past the end of the finger (what in the world is the point to that?... must be for lazy folks that don't want to bother with polishing their own short nails).

[seriousstan]

106. Duke Lacrosse DNA: Mystery Man Revealed

May 13, 2006 — The second round of DNA test results in the Duke University rape investigation show "no conclusive match'' to any lacrosse players, defense attorneys said, but a vaginal swab of the alleged rape victim produced DNA from a "single male source'' — a man not on the lacrosse team who did not attend a March 13 party that was the site of the alleged rape.

Defense attorney Joe Cheshire declined to identify the mystery man or his connection to the alleged victim, but ABC News' Law and Justice Unit has learned that the unnamed source of the DNA is the alleged victim's "boyfriend," according to her mother.

ABC News is withholding the name of the man because he is apparently not a target of the investigation. Records indicate that Durham, N.C., police gave the "boyfriend'' a cheek swab to collect DNA on May 3, ABC News' Law and Justice Unit has learned exclusively.

It is unclear if or how the first DNA tests missed what appears to be the only foreign genetic material found on the alleged victim's body, defense attorneys said. Two Duke lacrosse players were indicted more than two weeks before the cheek swab was taken from the "boyfriend."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=1958031&page=1

[FreakinDJ]

107. Not admisable in court

They can not talk about any other consentual sex in court

Rape--rape shield statute--prior sexual encounter on same day

The trial court did not err in a second-degree rape case by excluding evidence of the victim's prior sexual encounter with her boyfriend earlier on the same day as the alleged rape even though defendant presented a defense of consent, and defendant's conviction for second- degree rape is reinstated because: (1) no evidence proffered at the in camera hearing supported an inference that the victim's prior sexual activity was forced or caused any injuries; (2) where consent is the defense, evidence of the prior sexual activity is precisely the type of evidence the rape shield statute under N.C.G.S. § 8C-1, Rule 412 is intended to proscribe when in the instant case the victim described an earlier sexual encounter that was consensual and was unlikely to have produced the type and number of injuries the expert testimony verified that she suffered; (3) given the purpose of the rape shield statute, evidence of the victim's consensual attempt at sexual intercourse with her boyfriend is not probative on the issue of whether she consented to sexual activity with defendant; and (4) even assuming that the excluded evidence was probative, it was substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice to the State and the prosecuting witness.
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2005/548-04-1.htm

This can not be discussed even in context of cross examining the SANE report which is an obvious free pass for the prosecution. To say that consensual rough sex hours before an alleged incident would have no effect on the SANE report is ludicrous

In the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit’s study of False Allegations conducted in 1983 of 556 rape investigations, a total of 220 (40%) of these reported rapes turned out to be false. Over one fourth of these 556 turned out to be hoaxes
http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaStats.html

Given the high numbers (40%) proven after conviction by the FBI to be innocent of these crimes, Legislators and court should be much more cautious when suspending 14 amendment rights

[Media_Lies_Daily]

108. Doesn't look like they have a case at all.

[FreakinDJ]

110. Actually they do have a good case

DA Nifong said numerous times he could and would prosecute this case even in the complete lack of DNA. The Innocents Project has re-examined numerous pre-DNA rape convictions and over turned 35% resulting in the men being exonerated.

AV's IDing the victims and a SANE report is all it takes

[Media_Lies_Daily]

113. Nifong doesn't generate much confidence, IMHO.

[FreakinDJ]

117. Not real happy with Nifong

Not real happy with Nifong’s use of the race card in this case. It’s creating a volatile situation and is the best recruiting tool the KKK have had in decades

[LisaL]

124. That seems to be an understatement.

[Kagemusha]

114. To reiterate this...

This is not a matter of absence of DNA. This is a matter of exculpatory, exclusionary DNA. Or do they intend to try and make the exculpatory DNA tests inadmissible?

And well to be blunt, if she didn't have sex at the party, consentual or forced, what the hell happened? Someone's going to have to come up with an explanation.

[chookie]

118. Not sure about that

The findings of a SANE constitute only the very beginning of an investigation of a sexual assault. The SANE does not interpret the results and authoritatively determine if or if not a sexual assault occurred -- that is up to investigating detectives and forensic experts.

[Kagemusha]

109. I wouldn't be so hasty to say that...

(Edited because this reply is now in response to an edited post)

I'll just say that, just because the consentual sex isn't normally admissible in court, there's two issues here.

a) They have to be real damn sure on the forensic argument that the injuries are not likely to be a result of consentual sex.

b) They have to prove guilt of specific individuals with evidence. It is not enough to say, "This woman has been raped, someone must be guilty, we pick these men".

So we'll see. Depends on evidence I am glad I don't have to see.

[LisaL]

112. That defendant used consensual sex defense.

Which is different from the lacrosse no sex defense. I don't think rape shield law would apply.

[FreakinDJ]

116. Not sure

N.C.G.S. § 8C-1, Rule 412(b)(2) (2003).
This Court has stated that “he Rape Shield Statute provides that 'the sexual behavior of the complainant is irrelevant to any issue in the prosecution' except in four very narrow situations.” State v. Herring, 322 N.C. 733, 743, 370 S.E.2d 363, 370 (1988). The application of one of these exceptions is the basis for defendant's argument that a jury should be allowed to hear evidence of the victim's prior sexual activity. Although presenting a defense of consent, defendant also argues that a jury could inferthat the victim's injuries were a result of the earlier encounter on 13 April 2002, thereby accounting for the “physical evidence of the alleged force” which was used to convict him of rape.
http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/sc/opinions/2005/548-04-1.htm

Yes the defendant claimed the act was consensual in that case but the exclusion of discussions of the victim's sexual back ground are precluded by NC Rape Shield laws.

I thought the defense was vesting most of their case in the AV's Psychological back ground. Currently in NC psychological evidence is allowed.

[Kagemusha]

119. Oh. Well clearly... sexual background is to be excluded.

But "sexual background" is less crucial in this case than um... what would we call it, "sexual foreground"? The incident itself, not what was prior to it? Unless the prosecution brings in shaky evidence that can be explained away by the existence of consentual sex, that consentual sex is unlikely to be at issue. If it is at issue, it would be an issue of acts, not "a pattern of behavior".

Since, last I checked, there is controversy about whether this woman had sex of any kind during the rape incident, at *all*. Not that sexual assault needs to be sex, mind you, but "something happened, someone's guilty, look at those two whites, it must be them!" isn't gonna be good enough.

Or, well, shouldn't be.

[onenote]

149. consent not an issue here

Rape shield laws are intended to protect against a defendant, who admits to having had sex with someone accusing them of rape, of trying to prove that the accuser consented by pointing to past proclivity to have consensual sex. As I understand it...and like everyone else, I won't know for certain what the prosecution or the defense will argue until there is a trial...the defense isn't claiming that the accuser had consensual sex with the accused lacrosse team members; rather the defense is insisting (at least in the press) that none of the players had sex with her at all.

Consequently,there may be circumstances that would allow the evidence to come in, possibly in the cross of the SANE witness. That will depend, of course, on exactly what the SANE report indicates regarding the condition of the accused's genital area and whether the SANE witness testifies that the condition of the genital area is not consistent with consensual sex. (It has been reported that the SANE exam found injuries consistent with rape...that in and of itself doesn't preclude the possibility that those same injuries, or certain of the injuries, are consistent with consensual sex at an earlier point in time.) I'm not suggesting that is what the SANE report says nor am I suggesting what the SANE witness WILL say. Just that we don't know and thus, at this point, there are any number of possibilities. One of those possibilities is that the SANE exam and testimony will strongly support the conclusion that the accused suffeerd a violent sexual assault ace within close proximity in time to the party. Another possibility is that the SANE evidence will be more ambiguous than that.

onenote

[LisaL]

111. They call this revealed?

If they named him, then he would be revealed.

[DubyaSux]

115. Well....

.....the defense should just roll over on this then. Other than timestamped photos, airtight alibis, eyewitness accounts, no DNA evidence, and credibility problems with a falling down drunk stripper, they have nothing.

[chookie]

121. How true, how true

Timestamped photos, airtight alibis, eyewitness accounts, no DNA evidence despite an intensive examination and evidence collection by a SANE, and credibility problems with a falling down drunk stripper who first told police she had been attacked by 20 men, mean nothing. All this irrelevant nonsense will never make it into the courtroom proceedings.

[FreakinDJ]

122. The real court fight well be psychological records

The defense was quick to file motions for the prosecutor’s office to keep the DNA samples so you can take it to the bank they are planning on DNA evidence excluding the defendants.

They also filed motions to subpoena her psych records which I feel are going to be hotly contented by the prosecution with support of several national organizations. But in light of the FBI study finding that 25% of the cases they examined which resulted in wrongful convictions were a hoax, I feel it is criminal to deny psychological examination by the defense.

[FredScuttle]

126. 25%?

Care to cite a source for that "FBI study"?

[FreakinDJ]

132. Sure

In the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit’s study of False Allegations conducted in 1983 of 556 rape investigations, a total of 220 (40%) of these reported rapes turned out to be false. Over one fourth of these 556 turned out to be hoaxes
http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaStats.html

According to a nine-year study conducted by former Purdue sociologist Eugene J. Kanin, in over 40 percent of the cases reviewed, the complainants eventually admitted that no rape had occurred (“Archives of Sexual Behavior,” Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994) . Kanin also studied rape allegations in two large Midwestern universities and found that 50 percent of the allegations were recanted by the accuser.
http://www.americandaily.com/article/5075

You might also want to check innocentsproject.org

30 – 35% of the pre-DNA Rape convictions where men had already served 6, 8, 10 years of the sentence imposed on them have been over turned.

Given we are talking about effectively ending a human beings life with a 15 to Life sentence I think America needs to wake up. SHIT would 30 – 35% wrongful convictions be an acceptable rate in Capitol punishment cases

[chookie]

134. Question:

First of all -- thanks for the links. There have been a lot of statistics thrown about in discussion of this case, but little reference to the originating studies.

I was aware of Kanin, but have not known to look at innocentsproject.org.

Here's my question: It's all over the media and DU that "75% of rape cases present no DNA evidence." Do you know where people who cite this statistic are getting it from? I've been trying to hunt it down with no success. For example -- when was it done? There have been major breakthroughs in forensics in the last 10 years -- so does this statistic refer to recent times? It is heartening that there have been so many advancements in science, that will protect and vindicate righteous accusers as well as the wrongfully accused.

[jberryhill]

169. Remember though...

That DNA evidence is not an issue at all in rape cases where the central issue is consent - and in which sexual contact is admitted.

Obviously, in those cases, there is no point to anyone relying on DNA evidence.

MOST rapists are acquaintances of the victim.

[chookie]

171. Thanks for the clarification

The explanation you offered makes sense. Most cases debate consensual/nonconsensual claims by parties known to one another.

I had made the assumption that the statistic supported the notion that in "75% of rape cases" that forensic examination did not yield semen, saliva, or hairs, etc. That seemed iffy to me.

[jberryhill]

172. Oh, I thought that was obvious...

It's sort of like reciting how often ballistic evidence is or is not an issue in murder cases.

I mean, do you realize there was NO ballistic evidence at all in the OJ murder trial.

Most rapes are acquaintance rapes. DNA evidence is most effective in stranger rapes where the accused is denying any contact with the victim. Obviously in that situation, which is already in the minority of cases, DNA or fiber evidence showing any kind of contact is very powerful.

In this situation, it seems entirely obvious that some kind of altercation likely happened, so even if someone was scratched by a nail, that doesn't have the same sort of impact as in the situation where the defendant is saying he was never even near the victim at the time in question.

[bettyellen]

184. WOW, they did NO ballistic tests for deaths caused by stab wound, doh!

you do understand what ballistics means, don;t you?
or did you just have no clue about the OJ case and posted that anyway?

[jberryhill]

187. You really missed the point, didn't you....

One of the statistics that is repeated over and over again in these threads is that 70% of rape cases don't involve DNA evidence.

That is correct, because MOST rape cases are about whether there was consent, not whether there was contact.

Try reading the thread again, and you will understand the point - DNA evidence is as relevant to most rape cases as ballistics would be to a stabbing murder.

Or, let me guess, let's say you are investigating a rape:

She says, "He raped me."

He says, "We had sex, but she consented."

That is what MOST rape cases are about, since MOST rape cases involve an acquaintance.

So, in that situation, you are going to go running around looking for DNA evidence? Of course not. It would be AS dumb as looking for ballistic evidence in the OJ case. But it is WHY DNA is NOT an issue in MOST rape cases.

I perfectly well understand what "ballistics" means. You have not a clue what was being said about it.

[LostinVA]

275. I know, I was shocked the stab wounds didn't have ballistics run on them

The rifling on knife blades is very distinctive, you know....

:rofl:

[chookie]

216. Still, its disturbing...

...that I still keep coming across claims, from "legal experts" cited by news reports -- even when forensics are specifically addressed! -- that "DNA is not always present in rape cases."

Fuzzy thinking? Ideologically-motivated non-thinking? Clearly a false or unbased/uncritical assertion? Grasping onto a popularly accepted notion that has limited or outdated basis in fact? If based on forensic findings -- gee, I want to explore this (but I won't hold my breath).

Truisms unsupported by facts are doing a lot to distort matters of interpretation of evidence as this case is reported to the general public, even when there is a motive of objective reporting.

[jberryhill]

224. Two things are at work in the assertion

One is the absolutely correct assertion that the SANE report and a victim ID is perfectly sufficient to bring a charge.

But because of the expectation that DNA would prove or disprove the entire case, the irrelevant assertion about DNA not being present in all rape cases is trotted out. I'll vote for just fuzzy thinking as to forgetting in that assertion that in most rape cases the issue is not identity of the alleged rapist, or sexual contact, but consent.

It also seems that there is a serious misunderstanding about evidence generally - i.e. that any single piece of evidence makes or breaks an entire case.

Real life isn't like that. Real life is messy and full of inconsistencies, misperceptions, and odd coincidences. That's why paranoid thinkers always find those odd facts which, like leftover pieces from putting together IKEA furniture, just never seem to fit anywhere and obsess over them.

[onenote]

153. a link to the actual fbi report would be more persuasive, imo

a reference to a 23 year old fbi study isn't that persuasive. The only actual FBI report information I've seen is based on 1996 data and found an 8% false report rate. The fact is that there is no reliable current data on this question.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2234396#2238847

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_97/96CRIME/96crime2.pdf

[Spike from MN]

239. Well, here are some more stats on rape in general.

For those that think victims will jump at the chance to report a rape, read the first line. For those that thing that a conviction is an automatic, read the last one.

72% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Those rapists, of course, never serve a day in prison. <1999 NCVS>

If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.

If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.

If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.

If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.

So, even in those 28% of rapes that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.

Factoring in unreported rapes, about 5%—one out of twenty— of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 19 out of 20 will walk free.

http://hcs.harvard.edu/~casv/stats.htm

For those that think that "all rape allegations are false", take a good look at the stats I posted above and also at the world around you. If the "rape apologists" and "rape deniers" and "pro-rape" crowd would take 1/10^th of the time they spent worrying about "false allegations" and spent it instead on dealing with the actual, real-world realities of rape, maybe we could ALL start on a path towards working on a realistic solution to the problem. But given the vitriol in some of the posts I have seen here on the Duke threads over the past weeks, I most certainly don't expect to see that happening anytime soon. Or anytime at all for that matter. As long as people have their own agenda to push, they won't be open to looking at the other side of the issue. The agenda of the "victim's advocates" is to help the victims in the short run and ideally eliminate, or at the very least minimize the occurrences of, rape in the long run. What exactly the "agenda" of the "rape apologists" and "rape deniers" and "pro-rape" crowd is I can only imagine but I have a good idea and suffice it to say that it's not pretty.

[chookie]

128. It's touchy

In general -- nothing sucks worse than to be a mentally ill accuser -- the defence will always attempt to portray you as a loon who can't be trusted, no matter what the diagnosis or treatment has been, and even if one's psychiatric history consists of one episode of minor depression.

It is a striking detail that the accuser claimed to have been sexually assaulted by 3 men 10 years ago. Hey -- weird stuff happens, but a coincidence like that would raise a red flag to investigators. The accuser also underwent psychiatric treatment after the first incident, presumably to deal with the traumatic aftermath. As an investigator, given the ambiguity of the evidence, I think it would be worthwhile to review these medical records. They may or may not be relevant.

But you're right -- access to these records will be a matter of intense contention.

[FreakinDJ]

131. But who is manipulating who at this point

Sure there is good reason for the defense to subpoena the psychological records. But honestly given the facts she has changed her story 20 to 3 students, prior accusation of being gang raped, and accusing former husband. Nifong has to be a real jerk to parade this case and the victim through the media for his own political gain.

You have to remember Nifong held over 70 press conferences prior to his re-election

[chookie]

133. And its kinda funny...

...that Nifong's defenders have been very vocal that the defence lawyers must be silenced, in spite of how he has been hissing like a viper in regards to this case from day one to the tune of 70 press conferences. I guess the PC thing for the defence to do would be to hang their heads in shame and shut up until the trial, and then counter the charges with greatest reluctance during the trial out of respect for all victims of violent crime.

Watching this case develop is like watching a trainwreck which then explodes.

However imperfect it may be, I still put my trust into science and good investigative work.

[Moosepoop]

198. Three obvious points

The "changed her story from 20 guys to 3" idea has been debunked, many times over. That stemmed from the writing of one guy who thinks he overheard a police officer say it during a phone conversation with yet someone else. Not verification that it was ever said at all, by the dancer or the cop who was eavesdropped upon by the campus officer who needed something to write up in his report that he thought would please his bosses. He's probably in deep shit with the campus heads now due to his fraudulent "report" causing them to not react to the event in a timely fashion.

Nifong's using this case "for his own political gain" is nothing more than your opinion, however much you feel the need to try and state it as a fact.

Nifong was very vocal for the first two weeks, granted. Then he stopped.
The defense has been very vocal, almost daily, and sometimes several times a day, for the past six weeks. Two weeks versus six weeks.
Now go ahead and start crying about how "He started it!!!" I heard one of the defense-friendly talking heads on TV use that very phrase when the subject of the defense spouting nonsense all over the place came up --- "He started it!!!" She sounded like a 5 year old. And so do all of those on this forum who keep pounding on that theme.

[FredScuttle]

125. Fake, fake, fake, fake

Your post must win some kind of award for listing all the lies/half-truths/made-up bullshit that have been trotted out in an effort to discredit a rape victim.

1) Timestamped photos - the defense is now split in opinion about these as they appear, at best, to contradict the testimony of a key witness (the cabbie) who described the car depicted as a different color.

2) Airtight alibis? From whom? The other partygoers?

3) Eyewitness accounts - sure...the eyewitness I'm paying attention to is the neighbor who reported that these assholes yelled at a black woman to thank her grandfather for their cotton shirts.

4) No DNA evidence - you do know, don't you, that the majority of rape cases are prosecuted without DNA evidence, right?

5)"credibility problems" - glad to see you're swallowing the defense smear of a rape victim as a "falling down drunk stripper". Did it ever occur to you that she was slipped a roofie, which would confirm the 2nd dancer's report that her partner was stone cold sober when they arrived? And, as for the ridiculous accusation that she claimed she was attacked by 20 men, you do know that this smear was initiated by someone who didn't actually talk to the victim and was making up a bullshit story based on his eavesdropping on another cop's phone conversation, right?

So glad to see you're joining the legion here that's dedicated to spreading lies to discredit a rape victim. You should be very proud of yourself.

[FreakinDJ]

130. Fred if you believe so strongly

That if this is a righteous case, I suppose you would be in favor of rescinding Rape Shield laws.

As you are will aware Rape Shield laws don’t apply to the media, which is why we have these “phony” reports? So why not just let the case stand on its own merits. Let’s just hear the evidence and let the cards fall where they may

I didn't think so....

[ugarte]

135. They gave her roofies so they could screw her with a broomstick

so they wouldn't leave DNA? That's kind of a tough sell.

[chookie]

136. Will the roofies turn up in the blood test?

The presence of date rape drugs can be easily detected in the blood sample taken on the night of the alleged attack.

So will an alcohol level, that will give a rough estimation of how much alcohol she would have consumed, and in what period of time. If she told police that she was given one drink, and roofies are found in her blood sample, then hmmmm. If she said she was given one drink and no roofies are found, then hmmmm -- how did she get so darned falling down drunk? If she told police that she had been seized by one or more Lacrosse players, who forced her to drink a large amount of alcohol when she arrived prior to the dance (of course, this would have been prior to the release of this information to the public), then this is quite a different story.

It's all over the place that "75% of sexual assaults provide no DNA evidence" -- but I have been unable to trace this to the original source. Can you help me here? Can anyone? I am very interested in finding out when this study was done, and how it reached its conclusions.

I can see ONE creep not leaving semen or saliva, but THREE? And in such a violent assault? Within a few hours of a vicious assault, during which the accuser did not wash or douche? If this is an expectable result, I sure want to get the real facts on this.

Nifong has conjectured to the press that condoms were used. Um, did the accuser tell investigators this, or is he just guessing based on forensic findings as they have worked out? I can kinda see that an assault victim might be unaware of condoms being used in a vaginal or anal attack, but she also alleges that oral rape occurred -- is it possible to not know if one is being orally raped by a man wearing a condom?

[TorchTheWitch]

162. there may be evidence of a date rape drug

It's been in the press that a date rape drug may have been used...

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8694922/detail.html
An unnamed source close to the investigation of a reported rape near the Duke University campus has told NBC 17 News that someone might have drugged the accuser the night she claims three lacrosse members raped her.

"She may have been slipped a date-rape drug in a mixed drink she was given by one of the lacrosse players shortly after she arrived," the source told NBC 17 late Friday.

"Her condition is said to have changed dramatically in a short period of time, from being completely sober on arrival to passing out on the floor in a short period of time."

And we know she didn't wash and/or douche how? She was allegedly in a bathroom with running water and presumably some kind of soap. She may indeed have washed, but we don't know that one way or the other.

As for condom usage, it's entirely possible that whoever may have raped her used them without her knowledge. Whoever allegedly raped her orally may not have used one, but it's irrelevant seeing as they were discussing her "southern" orfices regarding possible condom use. Also, it's possible and even likely that someone being orally raped would shut their eyes and would have more important things to think about at the time other than whether or not they were wearing a condom or noticing a taste of one. For a rape victim, NONE of the rape is going to be academic. Most rape victims aren't even able to fully recall all the details of the attack... it's perfectly normal.

[sofa king]

137. Fred, correct me if I'm wrong but....

...Was it not just this past week when there was a huge argument over that partial DNA evidence which didn't match the two people accused. Yet the inquisitors here were more than happy to take that "evidence" and apply it against the accused.

Now, doesn't this story indicate that the partial DNA evidence was fake, fake, fake?

Moreover, doesn't the practice of revealing false information in the press sound just a little bit familiar to you?

I was suspending judgment before, but now that the prosecution's allegations are falling apart under public scrutiny, before the case even goes to trial, I've made my decision: this story is bullshit.

[bettyellen]

178. you're wrong

why don;t you read EITHER of the two stories instead of taking guesses?
or at least read this one.
sheesh.

[sofa king]

285. I don't think I am wrong.

Please point out where I am wrong.

My post was framed in the form of a question becuase I was attempting to politely point out to Fred that he is incorrect.

You should give it a try sometime, being polite.

[LostinVA]

293. No, it doesn't prove it was fake, it proves it was a partial match

How do you equate a partial DNA match with being "fake, fake, fake"?

Nothing is falling apart under public scrutiny... things are "falling apart" because of Defense spin. Hell, I can do that, too. That's not facts, that's PR and damage control.

Glad to know you've made up your mind before 99.9% of the facts have been relayed. The only thing I'm convinced of is that the woman was raped by someone, and that they needs to be a gag order imposed.

[sofa king]

313. Perhaps a partial resolution to the partial DNA?

Okay, maybe there's a solution to this. My problem is that the DNA fishing expedition turned up a partial match with people other than those indicted.

Now it would appear that there may be a third indictment, although we'll have to wait a little while to see exactly how it shakes out.

It's true that I am passing some form of judgment before all the facts are in, but my judgment is that the facts are not adding up to the preconceived outcome of guilt that others appear to be championing. And yes, I have made up my mind about that--for now. I'll change it when the verdict is in, if necessary.

It's important to realize that what we are actually seeing and participating in is part of the investigative process itself. In serious cases such as murder and rape, one of the few ways to ensure a prosecution is by securing a confession. One of the ways of securing that confession is by bringing public pressure to bear against the accused, in the form of relentless media attention. We've seen it a dozen times before and more: the Ramseys, Dr. Hatfill, and the Aruba witch-hunt, to name just a few.

(I would cite an example where the tactic actually worked--it has worked--but honestly I cannot think of one.)

Serial killer tracker John Douglas claims that this tactic was first devised as a result of interviews with Edmund Kemper. It had some limited success when it was first used in the 1980s, but now that defense attorneys are aware of the tactic they simply encourage their clients to shut up and ride it out, and once the accused is aware that the pressure is contrived they seem to be able to handle it much better. The tactic also appears to be the last refuge of, um, prosecutors who lack the evidence necessary to convict, to put a fine point on it.

I happen to think that this tactic is unfair because it is specifically designed to create the impression of guilt before the fact against suspects who should be presumed innocent at all times.

And that's why I still think all of this is bullshit, although I'm willing to concede that the story will continue to grow (either with facts, or with yet more bullshit) for months to come.

[jberryhill]

176. Fred, how do you explain...

...the security guard at the Kroger, who unlike the cabbie interacted with the women, describing their DARK car at the Kroger?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1849938&page=1
The guard was on duty at the store on the night of March 13, when the two women pulled into the store's parking lot in a dark sedan.

If you want to have the cabbie saying they left in a white car, and the security guard (and police) at the Kroger having the women arrive there in a dark car, then do you care what happened in between their departure from the house and their arrival at the Kroger?

The only explanations are:

(a) the cabbie is wrong about the color of the car in which they left.

(b) the multiple Kroger witnesses are wrong about the color of the car in which they arrived.

(c) they switched cars in between leaving the house and arriving at the Kroger.

As long as (c) is a possibility, then it would seem that something interesting, and potentially involving additional suspects, happened there.

If there is a possibility of other suspects than the lacrosse players, then do you still care what happened to the victim?

[FredScuttle]

265. How do I explain? I don't

These aren't my witnesses. These are the witnesses being trumpeted by the "accuser is a liar" crowd. I'm just pointing out inconsistencies and contradictions in the various witness statements to the media or leaked by the defense, which is par for the course for a pre-trial circus such what this case has created.

I care about what happened to the victim no matter who did it. My opinion is that the lacrosse players are the prime suspects for good reason, but we don't know everything the DA has right now, so we should wait for the trial.

[jberryhill]

283. I am thrilled to agree with you

I do agree with what you wrote there.

Clearly if a woman has been raped, and she spent part of the evening in a house of obviously unruly jerks, they are indeed the prime suspects for good reason. There's no question about that.

[FredScuttle]

120. More defense spin?

Yawn....wake me when some legitimate evidence is introduced at trial.

[LisaL]

123. Wake you up? I think you are in such stupor, nothing can wake

you up.

[FredScuttle]

127. Well, enlighten me then

I have the time.

[LisaL]

236. It's not my job to enlighten anyone.

[Moosepoop]

255. And a darned good thing that is, too!

:yoiks:

[chookie]

129. The accuser got a ride to the Lacrosse party

I am not aware that the identity of the driver has been reported. It might be interesting, or relevant. Might it have been the Mystery Man? (I don't know.)

[Moosepoop]

141. I agree.

The driver has not been identified, nor has there been any interest taken in his or her identity by the press.

I think we're not hearing about the driver for two reasons.

One, we're hearing almost exclusively from the defense now, and have been since the first two weeks after the alleged incident.

Two, the defense isn't saying anything at all about the driver, I believe, because the driver (who has surely been interviewed by the prosecution) would be in a position to know what condition the AV was in when she was dropped off at the party.

The driver can attest to her physical state, mental state, and state of sobriety when she got out of the car. The driver may prove useful to the prosecution by contradicting the defense's claims of her being drunk and injured when she arrived.
The driver, of course, also obviously knows what car he or she was driving when dropping the AV off, so there is the answer to all the speculation about whether that one photo was of the victim being helped out of a car on arrival, or into a car on departure. If the black or navy blue car in the photo was the one she left in, rather than arrived in, then there's a serious problem with the defense's star witness -- the cab driver, who says he saw her get into a white car on her departure.

If the mystery driver were at all useful to the defense (who surely knows the driver's identity, too), we'd be hearing all about it.

Just my two cents.

[jberryhill]

166. This is what is disturbing about "not hearing about the driver"

There seems to be a mindset in which the victim came into being at midnight.

BECAUSE we want to see a bunch of priviliged white brats get their comeuppance, there are loose ends about which the lack of curiousity is astounding.

The account of the players that she was disoriented upon, or soon after arrival, that she arrived with injuries, and that this "someone else" just dropped her off at a house teeming with drunk white guys, raises a number of flags. Maybe something, maybe nothing.

But because it is the players saying things that, if you look at it objectively, make you wonder, "Hey, what might have happened to her earlier that night", it is dismissed as "defense spin" and not what it would otherwise be - an investigative lead from witnesses to her condition.

She could have arrived appearing sober, and then responded out of a delayed trauma reaction or a date rape drug, which then affected her later ability to coherently recount what happened.

But because she did have injuries consistent with rape, it seems utterly astounding that nobody seems to give a rat's patootie what may have happened before midnight.

People have thrown around all kinds of battling statistics except the primary rape statistic of them all - most rapists are acquaintances of the victim.

If the black or navy blue car in the photo was the one she left in, rather than arrived in, then there's a serious problem with the defense's star witness -- the cab driver, who says he saw her get into a white car on her departure.

The security guard at the Kroger, and the police at the Kroger, have both women in the parking lot in a dark car. Either (a) the cabbie misremembers the color of the car, which is no big deal, or (b) the women switched cars. If anyone wants to insist that the cabbie was right about the color of the departure car, then that person is going to have to understand that the women switched cars somewhere between the party and the Kroger - and that opens up another range of "what went on and who was involved" when they switched into the DARK car in which they arrived at the Kroger.

The cabbie isn't a "star witness" because of what he might or might not remember - he is important because of his cell phone records which establish a timeline. No witness remembers everything with perfection.

[zann725]

163. You knew the "results" ahead of time. "THAT kind of thing" doesn't happen

at places LIKE Duke.

Reminds me of a friend I knew who many years back went to an upscale University, and went to the Univ. health center requesting a "VD" test. She was told that "people here don't get those kind of things. Sorry, we don't do that test here."

Reminds me of that impersonation Stephanie Miller does on her show of the way people at the Country Club her family attended when she was young referred to "black people" in a whispered tones...their voice dropping down almost inaudibly each time they said the words.

Duke (and ESPECIALLY its "star" athletes) were NEVER going to be guilty...whatever the circumstance. Given blaming them, or that poor black girl...come on, please!

This is the ultimate example of the "advantages" of denial of those in Power.

[IndianaGreen]

180. Nifong indicted the wrong people, Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty!

Defense Attorney: No DNA Link In New Tests

POSTED: 9:06 pm EDT May 12, 2006
UPDATED: 9:40 pm EDT May 12, 2006

Cheshire said the testing did find some genetic material from several people on a plastic fingernail found in a bathroom trash can of the house where the team held the March 13 party. He said some of that material had the "same characteristics" -- a link short of a conclusive match -- to some of the players, but not the two who have charged with rape, kidnapping and sexual assault.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9209919/detail.html

Rape Accuser Had Photo ID'd Possible DNA Match
Defense Attorneys: Fingernails With DNA Were Never Applied

DURHAM, N.C. -- A Duke lacrosse player whose DNA may match tissue found under the fake fingernails of an exotic dancer who claims she was raped was identified in a photo lineup with 90 percent certainty, sources tell NBC-17.

<snip>

Now, NBC-17 has learned that the player is not one of the two already accused in the case -- Reade Seligmann, of Essex Fells, N.J., and Collin Finnerty, of Garden City, N.Y.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9203288/detail.html

[bettyellen]

181. wrong. this is NEW only to you- the prosecuter said as much on friday....

no one ever maintained it was just the two players. specualtion is that another may be charged.
so, are you just unschooled in the facts or just intentionally spreading BS?
either way, thanks for nothing!

[IndianaGreen]

182. Nifong has no case against Seligmann and Finnerty

The only reason he indicted them was to bolster his reelection chances. Or do you even care about due process?

[bettyellen]

185. opinions, guesses, inaccuracies? you post of what you know not.

it's delusional to believe that you or i know the facts.
has naught to do with due process.

[LisaL]

256. Are you really concerned with due process?

[zann725]

296. Is this THE Prosecutor also running for re-election soon?

As to what facts I'm "un-schooled" in, everyone knows that generally speaking, those with better well-connected attorneys DO tend to win. Not always, but...well-connnected attorneys coincidentally also "know" judges "better." That's a fact. As to 'valuable' athletes, i.e., O.J. and Kobe... WHILE they are still 'valuable,' they usually always 'win.' Once their 'celebrity' or 'worth' are waning, their odds of winning curiously also diminish (i.e. 'celebrity,' Michael Jackson, who curiously moved to foreign country (a behind-the-scenes 'plea-bargain, perhaps?').

Rape and incest (especially when reported by the poor or minorities) have less chance of being 'believed,'their evidence 'lost' or 'spoiled.' and the case ultimately dropped when involved with high-profile perpetrator...since the "value" of the victims involved is perceived as "less" (and realistically are less likely to have the assets and best-connected attorneys to fight back) than those "better connected"...with Family and Institution "images" to maintain.

In many ways, Rape and Incest ARE a sort of like 'white-collar' crime...flaunting Power, exploitating the weak...and denial and of accountability...due to laws skillfully twisted by well-connected attorneys. This is NOT new. Why should it be any different in Duke case? Why would the 'victim' move from the town, be 'driven-out' IF she were lying, and the facts of her allegations were false? And why would the entire Duke team flea the house within 10 minutes of the 911 call, if indeed they were innocent?

[not_nameless]

189. don't worry

the cops will do another lineup with the guy who's DNA was found there as the only person in the lineup.

[IndianaGreen]

183. Defense: semen found in the dancer's body was "of recent origin"

Nifong could seek third indictment

By John Stevenson : The Herald-Sun

May 13, 2006 : 10:05 pm ET

Meanwhile, several defense lawyers had a telephone conference Saturday to further discuss the new DNA results.

Afterward, attorney Bill Thomas of Durham -- who represents an un-indicted lacrosse player -- said semen found in the dancer's body was "of recent origin" and had been deposited there "immediately prior to her being examined" in connection with the alleged rape.

"I think it highly unlikely that the district attorney would seek an indictment based on this report," Thomas added. "It completely exonerates all members of the Duke lacrosse team. An attempt to indict based on this report would, in my opinion, be misguided."

Using the new DNA report as a springboard, Thomas also attacked the dancer's credibility on Saturday, as he and other defense lawyers have done previously.

"Her story is nothing short of ridiculous and certainly should not be the basis of an indictment," Thomas said. "I think a prosecutor or grand jury would be ill advised to base an indictment on this woman's word."

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-734516.html

[BrownOak]

194. What is "immediately prior?"

When Thomas says "immediately prior" is he talking about after the party but before the Kroger? Is he talking about immediately prior in the sense that we're talking about evidence that can last for 6 days? Is it even possible to even estimate the time that semen was in the victim? Is it possible to get any accuracy at all with that?

[Moosepoop]

196. I was wondering that too.

Next thing we know, Thomas will be telling us she injected the semen with a turkey baster in the hospital parking lot. Or something.

[jberryhill]

210. The problem with closed minds...

I'm still stuck on the cabbie saying they left in a white car, and the women arriving at the Kroger in a dark car.

I guess maybe its because I don't find an axe to grind in any of this that those two observations don't necessarily mean that anyone is lying or mistaken.

[chookie]

213. If I am ever in trouble, I want someone like you on my side

It's been a pleasure to meet you in this forum. You have a meaningful grasp of evidence and the legal process. You are a critical thinker with open-minded comprehension of small details. I appreciate you sharing your insight and expertise with us -- I have learned a great deal from you.

You're onto something -- what happened from the time the women entered the (white) car (as reported by the cab driver) until the time she was found in the green car at Kroger's? I have not seen this addressed in press reports. Shouldn't be overlooked or discarded.

[chookie]

209. Some info that may address your question

"Often, dried stains of semen on clothing are a better sample to test for DNA than vaginal samples because the vagina contains vaginal material that can interfere with the typing tests.9 Vaginal swabs must also be collected within three to six hours of intercourse for DNA typing. Sperm can live up to 72 hours in the vaginal pool, but some of the components of semen degrade rapidly in the vaginal environment.9 Motile sperm can survive in the vagina from three to 24 hours, and from 110 hours to seven days in the cervix.10-11 Nonmotile sperm can be found in the vagina from 14 hours to 17 days, and in the cervix for 12 days.
-snip-
Evidence in sexual assaults (clothing, stains, smears) is examined for seminal fluid, sperm (both motile and non-motile), and acid phosphatase (specific to seminal fluid).7 A high level of acid phosphatase in the vagina is indicative of recent sexual contact due to high levels in seminal fluid and low levels in vaginal fluids.7
-snip-
There is also a semen-specific protein called P-30, also known as the prostatic antigen, which can be tested for and is indicative of semen. This can be found in swabs from the vagina, mouth and rectum.9 Both the acid phosphatase and the P-30 tests can be used to estimate the amount of semen in the sample, as well as confirm the presence of semen when there are no sperm cells present, as in many cases of sexual assault.9
http://www.forensicnursemag.com/articles/391clinical.html

[Spike from MN]

246. I hate to ask but the info you posted doesn't include it.

I'm wondering what exactly time frame would be regarding the possiblity/impossibility of detecting the presence of semen on a blue dress might be. Sorry. I just had to throw that out there. ;)

[progressivebydesign]

229. WOw... newsflashes from DEFENSE lawyers.. insightful. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

226. Wow.. those defense attorneys are hard at work.

LOVE to hear from the ACTUAL PROSECUTION. These defense lawyers are just posturing all over the place. Sickening to see that it's mostly PR!

[chookie]

235. Listen tomorrow

The DA will lay out his case tomorrow. We'll see how hard he has been working.

[LisaL]

240. He is not going to lay out his case tomorrow.

[chookie]

244. Here's where I got this assertion from

"Those questions, and possibly more, could be answered as early as Monday, May 15, when the first evidentiary mandatory discovery hearing in the Duke alleged gang rape case is held in Durham Superior Court; the Durham grand jury is reconvened to consider new evidence for a possible third indictment; and the results of DNA samples are expected back. "
http://www.wilmingtonjournal.com/news/Article/Article.asp?NewsID=69347&sID=4

Was I incorrect in thinking this was a significant hearing? Will it be confined to indicting the third accused man? Will defence have a part in this proceeding?

[jberryhill]

241. Actually, what the "defense attorneys" are doing is different...

Just as some people refer to "the players" as if it were the Borg - rather than a collection of individuals including a subset of only two charged thus far - it seems that some people don't get that some attorneys are media whores, whether or not they are even representing a defendant.

The attorney in this report is a prime example. Notice that he is not representing either of the two defendants, but he has the unfortunate luck of having landed a client in this shark-feeding frenzy who isn't actually charged with anything.

This gives him a problem. He wants his face on TV as an attorney in a high-profile case, but unless his client gets charged, he can't later pimp himself as having really been a "defense attorney in the Duke rape case".

You see? He's not really a "defense attorney" for anyone, since his unindicted client has nothing to "defend" against.

Then you have the amorphous "defense attorneys" commenting in the media who, while they are available as defense attorneys, haven't been engaged by anyone IN the actual case.

But, commenting on someone else's case is a way to get cheap publicity without having to deal with the responsibility of actually handling a case.

If there is one thing I would strongly urge to anyone, it is this - if you are EVER involved in ANY legal proceeding whatsoever, and your attorney pops up in the newspaper or Larry King or whereever to talk about your case, then FIRE HIM OR HER IMMEDIATELY, AND MAKE IT CLEAR THAT HE/SHE WILL NEVER PRACTICE LAW AGAIN IF THEY SAY ANYTHING TO ANYONE EVER ABOUT THEIR ENGAGEMENT BY YOU.

You'll not only be doing yourself a big favor, but you will be doing the legal profession a favor too.

[TorchTheWitch]

252. too true

Although I have a suspicion that Joe Cheshire is the attorney for whoever it is that may be indicted next, and he knows it. And my guess is that "whoever it is" is probably Dan Flannery. I could be wrong, but I really think that's who it is. Which I suppose why the recent face time of Cheshire may make some sense.

[LisaL]

254. I am sure the lawyer knows if his client is going to be next.

[Moosepoop]

257. Cheshire represents team captain Dave Evans.

Whether Evans is the third player facing possible indictment, I don't know. But you're right in that Cheshire has been very vocal and visible through all this, especially for not yet having his client charged with anything.

[TorchTheWitch]

267. That's right

Butch Williams is Dan Flannery's attorney. Still, I just have this feeling the next to be indicted (if anyone is) is Dan.

[Marie26]

274. DNA links 3rd lacrosse player to alleged attack

Chicago Tribune - DURHAM, N.C. -- Prosecutors believe they have DNA evidence to tie a third Duke lacrosse player to the alleged attack on a 27-year-old exotic dancer, news outlets in Durham reported Thursday.

The local ABC affiliate, citing sources, reported that the third player is the same person who was identified with "90 percent" certainty by the alleged victim in a photo lineup. That lineup was conducted by police weeks after the March 13 off-campus lacrosse team party where the alleged incident took place.

The potential evidence--a DNA sample found under a fake fingernail worn by the alleged victim and linked to the lacrosse player--was recovered from the off-campus home where the alleged attack took place. The fingernail was found in a trash can in the house, sources close to the investigation told the ABC station.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/cs-0605120217may12,1,3342244.story?coll=cs-college-print

So, the fingernail contained DNA that is consistent w/the third lacrosse player that the woman had identified as her assailant. That's not good for the defense, though they can try to downplay the evidence at trial. Now, how did this story go from "matching DNA found" to the defense's press conference spin that DNA didn't match any players? How can anyone believe anything this team says?

[onenote]

276. isn't this old news?

Why call this an "update"?

[Marie26]

278. It's new to me

And I didn't see this mentioned yet in this thread (after a cursory look). The thread headline still blares "No conclusive DNA match" & the OP article doesn't mention that DNA was found that links the 3rd identified lacrosse player to the assault. (Apparantly the defense forgot to mention that in their press conference). So I thought it was important to include this article as well to get a fuller picture of the results here.

[onenote]

279. well, it is a long thread,

So I can see how you might miss it. However, for the record, the story about the dna evidence found on the fingernail linking to the third identified player has been cited and/or linked in several posts along the way, including 19, 79, and 180. Also, the OP, and a few other posts, mention the DNA evidence found on the fingernail and the fact that it was a partial match to "some of the players" --admittedly not specifying the one "identified" but not charged player.

The story also had its own thread back last Thursday.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2277256



onenote

[Marie26]

286. Well, thanks and all

There's also numerous posts here about how the DNA doesn't match any of the lacrosse players, and the defense's press conf. implied that the DNA results didn't match any of the alleged assailants. I want to have it there in a post headline so people glancing at the thread can know that the fingernail DNA was matched to the third alleged assailant. I removed "update" to make you happy as you focus on the subject line instead of the content of the post. How do you feel about this information? Isn't it a pretty big coincidence that the DNA found matches the player that the woman had already identified as her assailant?

[jberryhill]

287. It's certainly a point in the prosecution's favor

But the distinction is between a low probability "partial match" and what is normally a "match".

It is also not a huge coincidence if it turns out that a sample retrieved from a bathroom trashcan includes DNA bearing matter from a person who used the bathroom.

But when you talk about the "case" - the case so far involves two defendants, neither of whom are the subject of this match, and who are excluded by this match ("excluded" in the sense of this particular piece of evidence and this particular DNA result). So, someone needs at least another indictment.

There were four players identified in the photo session as possible participants in the attack. That's a bit under 10% of the persons at the party. The ID was a "90% accurate" ID, which is entirely subjective. Let's peg the partial match at a 1 in 100 shot for the moment (we'll know more later). So it is somwhere around a 1 in 20 shot, that any partial match would correspond to the player she ID'd (math is NOT my strong suit, so check that).

Then what you are left with, pace possible contamination, is a piece of evidence that says she scratched someone during a situation in which we know there was a disagreement over money, and she was separated from her purse.

Please note that I am not calling anyone a liar. The point is that a jury has got to buy this beyond a reasonable doubt.

[onenote]

288. hard to assess the information

Its unclear to me whether the dna evidence found on the fingernail related only to the one player or to multiple players (as at least one of the stories seems to indicate).If she struggled with three persons, and the dna found on the fingernail doesn't match the two that have been charged, but matches not only the third person she identified, but also others, then I can't rule out the possibility that it may simply be a coincidence that one of them was the player she identified. It would help to know how many different persons DNA was found on the fingernail. I don't know much about these things, but if its a fingernail that it attached with an adhesive, contamination after it was tossed in the trash would seem to be a possibility. In short, until more is known, I have no way to form an opinion as to the significance of the partial dna match (although it obviously has some potential significance).

onenote

[TorchTheWitch]

289. It was a partial match to ONE player

All the others were ruled out.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9195862/detail.html?rss=tri&psp=news
Analyzing the tissue, scientists concluded it came from the same genetic pool and was "consistent" with the bodily makeup of one of 46 lacrosse players who gave DNA samples for testing, several sources told the newspaper. Scientists also ruled out a possible match with any of the other 45 students, according to the sources.

[jberryhill]

291. Yup

...which indicated a certain degree of "defense spin" when the story went on to say that a partial match could be as low as 1 in 6.

Because, duh, if THIS partial was as low as 1 in 6, then you would expect it to have been consistent with at least, uh what's 46 divided by 6, players.

That seemed to be the dumb part of the story.

[jberryhill]

280. It's the same story

The "no conclusive match" is the same "partial match" information that was leaked on Friday. The report is due today, so some more information should be available on the extent of the partial match.

The story was headlined in one of two ways - glass half full, and glass half empty. The basic fact nugget is that a fake fingernail retrieved from the bathroom trashcan yielded a sample from which DNA was tested. The sample wasn't good enough for a full analysis, but resulted in a "partial match" - i.e. some subset of 13 alleles. The odds of a "partial match" matching anyone can be as low as 1 in 6, but can be higher depending on the number of alleles matched. The other nugget was that the partial match was not to either of the two indicted defendants - i.e. the test result yielded alleles that do not match them at all. The upshot is, whatever the strength of this piece of information, it is consistent with the AV's account of scratching someone.

There is also a white male pubic hair recovered from (not clear where) on the victim, but to which no root was attached, so there is no nuclear DNA to test. Additionally, and most irrelevantly although some people think it is big, a further test of a vaginal swab indicates semen from the AV's "boyfriend" (which is consistently reported with those quotes). No information yet on whether the "boyfriend" is white.

The winner of the "bizarre allegation" prize goes to a wannabee defense attorney who professes to be able determine the vintage of semen. How he acquired that skill is not known.

The discussion revolves around the relative value of the match (a 1 in 10, applied to 46 players, would give you 4.6 people matched on average / a 1 in 100 would be a coin toss to anyone); the combination of the match with the photo ID (which is the strong point here); and the possibility that the sample was contaminated by other material in the bathroom trashcan.

Other aspects of the discussion revolve around the usual name-calling and accusations among DU'ers - like wandering into a "Free Mumia" thread and calling his supporters "pro cop-killing".

The runner up in the "bizarre quote" category was from the transcript of the photo-ID session, posted at WRAL, in which in reference to Finnerty, the examiner asks, "Is that the gentleman who put his penis in your vagina and anus?" and the AV answers affirmatively. The transcript, btw, would make it hard to backtrack to a broomstick.

Someone needs a new definition of "gentleman", though.

[TorchTheWitch]

301. BREAKING - 3rd PLAYER JUST INDICTED

Breaking on CNN - No link yet.

The 3rd player was just indicted - Dave Evans. Which would explain why Cheshire has been so noisy lately.

[Marie26]

302. It makes sense now

Cheshire was the one who self-righteously claimed the DNA shows no conclusive matches, while apparantly forgetting the DNA matched his own client. This does explain why Cheshire has been so talkative throughout this case - I wondered why the lawyer for the team captain would still be so prominent here. Seems to indicate that they knew the accuser had picked Evans out of the line-up. And it's also interesting that Cheshire was sent out earlier to talk about Seligmann's alibi - while never apparantly mentioning his own client's whereabouts that night. Evans was the one who booked the dancers under an assumed name. It seems pretty certain that he was there during the party. And, although he lived at the house, he had disappeared by the time police showed up minutes after the dancers left.

[jberryhill]

303. It sure would

...and he was one of the house residents:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/15/AR2006051500377.html
Evans, who in the past had been cited for a noise ordinance violation and alcohol possession, lived at the house where the party was held.

[Marie26]

304. And...

Here's the funny part: suddenly, Cheshire is refusing to comment. :eyes: "Evans' attorney, Joseph Cheshire, didn't immediately comment on the indictment." I posted the AP article on the 3rd indictment as a seperate thread.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/05/15/duke.lacrosse.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[timber84]

305. The wral site say's he's holding a press conference at 2pm

[Marie26]

306. That's right

And I'm sure we'll learn about Evan's new blockbuster alibi at that time.

[timber84]

307. new? has he ever given one as of yet?

[TorchTheWitch]

310. Don't believe so

Haven't heard a word about any alibi for this guy. Apparently, he's the one that talked to reporters before claiming nothing happened.

[Marie26]

311. He has for the other indicted players

No, I'm being bitter. I meant "new", as in "never given before" alibi. I noticed (a lot of people noticed) a long time ago that the shakiest defense evidence seemed to be coming from Cheshire. He was the one who was talking to the media constantly about the cell phone photos, the alibi, the defense timeline, the "lack" of DNA matches, etc. etc. Cheshire was also the attorney who implied the dancer was drunk when she got there (w/o any evidence). And Cheshire's talkativeness seemed odd because he wasn't representing one of the indicted players. It seems less odd now.

[TorchTheWitch]

308. He's picking out his best tie for the press conference

FAR too busy to make any comment right now... gotta find the perfect tie.

;)

[maddezmom]

314. locking

Updated information and link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2285577