Anti-Castro sign at ball game causes incident

[Bacchus39]

I guess this guy didn't realize he wasn't in Cuba anymore.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060310/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/p... ;_ylt=AsWtrM2mVpEAk92XEBXmgfO3IxIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--


Anti-Castro Sign at Ballgame Causes Stir By ANDREW SELSKY, Associated Press Writer
36 minutes ago




SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - While Cuba played the Netherlands in the World Baseball Classic, a spectator in the stands raised a sign saying: "Down with Fidel," sparking an international incident that escalated Friday with the velocity of a major league fastball.

ADVERTISEMENT

The image of the man holding the sign behind home plate was beamed live Thursday night to millions of TV viewers — including those in Cuba. The top Cuban official at the game at Hiram Bithorn Stadium in San Juan rushed to confront the man.

Puerto Rican police quickly intervened and took the Cuban official — Angel Iglesias, vice president of Cuba's National Institute of Sports — to a nearby police station, where they lectured him about free speech.

"We explained to him that here the constitutional right to free expression exists and that it is not a crime," police Col. Adalberto Mercado was quoted as saying in El Nuevo Dia, a San Juan daily.

[TomInTib]

1. And if the sign had read "Down With Bush" there would have ...

been Hell to pay.

[Bacchus39]

2. I would expect there would have been a standing ovation

if the sign had said "Abajo Bush". and I doubt the Cuban guy would have objected.

[Benhurst]

3. Ah, yes, but he would have been a "terrist," with no

constitutional rights other than a quick trip, ironically, to Cuba, Uncle Sam's spa at Guantanamo.

As The Leader would remind us, "Let freedom reign."

[saigon68]

4. "FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH"

SHOUTED THE CHIMPANZEE

[daleo]

5. Well, "confronting" the sign wavers is free speech too. n/t

[rinsd]

7. So a member of the Fed government should scream at protesters?

Is that what you are saying?

[daleo]

8. The article didn't say what the "confrontation" was

Do you have a link with more details?

[rinsd]

10. Here's a couple

Here's the guy's story (double grain of salt, obviously this guy will be biased and the website is very anti-Castro)

http://www.therealcuba.com/Baseball%20Classic.htm

Here's an ESPN article.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/worldclassic2006/news/sto...

This article states that the signs were requested to be removed. Which is even further than where the AP article went.

But so we don't get bogged down in sematics let's elminate the word screamed. Do you think it would be okay for a member of the government to "confront" a protester even politely?

Do you think it would be okay for a major newspaper in the US to run a picture of a protester with the words "Cowardly Provocation" as the headline?

http://www.granma.cubaweb.cu/eventos/clasico2006 /

[daleo]

12. Well, the ESPN article has few details about the protest

And I am understandably leery of anti-Castro sites, so I won't comment on that.

Technically he was just exercising his right to free speech, the same as the sign wavers. Had this occurred in Cuba, where his government has jurisdiction, it would be different.

If a similar event occurred during a game of a U.S. team overseas (say, an American sports official personally objected to anti-Bush signs or antics at a World Cup soccer game somewhere) I have no doubt plenty of major newspapers would have some pretty sensationalized headlines about the "outrageous anti-Bush protesters". And I think the right wing media bandwagon (Fox, Limbaugh, etc.) would claim the U.S. sports official was a patriot and a hero. And I am pretty sure any U.S. TV network that was filming the game would insist that security put a stop to that sort of thing in the future, if only because it would distract from their corporate advertisements.

All that being said, the Cuban official probably should have just ignored the whole thing. But, like bureaucrats everywhere, he probably thought that his objections would be looked upon kindly in his next job evaluation.

[rinsd]

13. Response....

"And I am understandably leery of anti-Castro sites, so I won't comment on that."

That's why I used qualifiers. It still does have the guy;s account in his words for what its worth.

"Technically he was just exercising his right to free speech, the same as the sign wavers. Had this occurred in Cuba, where his government has jurisdiction, it would be different."

It would have been much scarier I agree. But wouldn't it bother you if say a US official from the Olympics confronted protesters there?

We're not talking rw media outlets or Fox News portryal of protesters. We're talking the about the MAIN state paper. And the tone of the article is how dare he and what a worm he is etc. I expect that shit from say newsmax but I would be shocked to hear it from say BBC (looking for a comparitive state media outlet)

"All that being said, the Cuban official probably should have just ignored the whole thing. But, like bureaucrats everywhere, he probably thought that his objections would be looked upon kindly in his next job evaluation."

Definitely agree.

[daleo]

18. That kind of behavior by a U.S. official would be irksome, I agree

It is hard to compare a state news agency like Cuba's with anything in the U.S. of course. I would argue that the corporate media in the U.S. (and the west in general) does provide a similar function to state news agencies in countries that don't fall into the category of western style democracies - i.e. they are the main mouthpieces of the status quo.

The BBC and CBC generally stay away from sensationalist headlines, although not always. International sports can be the exception, given the nationalistic feelings that are aroused.

I don't speak Spanish, so I will have to take your word about the contents of the Cuban site. The newspaper account sounds unduly harsh and melodramatic, although it all seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot.

[rinsd]

6. LOL

"We explained to him that here the constitutional right to free expression exists and that it is not a crime,"

[Walt Starr]

9. And Fidel proved the guy with the sign right!

Castro is a tyrant. The world will be a better place after he's gone.

[robcon]

11. Like Kim in North Korea, Castro is trying to start a dynasty.

I understand his brother Raul will take over on Fidel's death or disability (elections are such a nuisance for Cuba.)

[Ben Ceremos]

24. Lies.

The line of succession is determined by elections.

[Spinoza]

57. Good point.

Everyone knows Castro regularly conducts totally free and fair elections.

[Mika]

58. Castro this Castro that (((Yawn)))

So many Americans (who have never been there) are Cuba experts.

See how easy it is to be one?

(((Yawn)))

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

Of course, American "experts" who have never been to Cuba, wallowing in freedom, are banned by their own government from going there to see it for themselves.

________





But then, there is what actually goes on in Cuba now.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

90. perhaps you should get more sleep...nt

[Mika]

91. Perhaps the Cubaphobes should wake up. n/t

[ProudToBeLiberal]

92. you're the one who yawned...

Show me one place on this thread, where another person, but you yawned...I'm still waiting

[Mika]

93. ((Yawn)) = boring

The constant mewling of 'Castro is doing this', 'Castro is doing that', 'Castro did this' and 'Castro did that' when referring to anything done by the Cuban government or almost any Cuban official or organization (both negative or positive) is boring.

Cuba is much more that just Castro. Cubans do have representational municipal, provincial and national assemblies that are elected. Many DU Cubaphobes seem to refuse to recognize that fact, instead, they mewl on with the repeat 'Castro is doing this', 'Castro is doing that', 'Castro did this' & 'Castro did that'.

[Taxloss]

122. I nominate this for

"least illuminating exchange I have read all year".

[0007]

123. Yawn!

[killbotfactory]

14. To be fair, the free speech zone was two blocks away

under a busy freeway.

[HuffleClaw]

15. i'm imagining what would happen to someone who did the same

during a game at which bush was present. i bet their free speech rights would NOT be defended by the police.

[Lefty48197]

16. F*CK YOU FIDEL!

Welcome to the free world. Reminds me of the few occasions where Bush or Cheney wander out into the public. They hear things like "fuck you Mr. Cheney" and other niceties like that.
I think Fidel really believes that 100% of the world adores him.

[Mika]

17. Note: Fidel had nothing to do with it. He's in Cuba.

"I think Fidel really believes that 100% of the world adores him."

I doubt it. Just 90 miles away are plenty of Cubahpobes mewling away. On DU too.

Funny thing though.. Mr Castro can drive around in Cuba in an open jeep, stop at a market, go on a jog without being surrounded by machine gun weilding guards. Mr Castro can speak in front of hundreds of thousands of Cubans at rallies and celebrations of all kinds and not wear kevlar nor stand behind bullet proof glass.

Been there, seen it.


Who do you think is more popular on a global basis - Castro or Bush?

[Lefty48197]

19. F*CK YOU GWB!

Feel better?

[Mika]

20. Not really. How about you?

Glad you got it off of your chest.

[NorCal]

23. Yeah, people just love Fidel.

That must be the reason that so many people are dying trying to escape that little island paradise.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

29. Lots of people around here seem to love him.

Say one word against him and the fangurls scratch your eyes out!

[Mika]

30. How about some links to back that up.

I'd like to see some posts that indicate that "Lots of people around here seem to love him". Should be easy since its "lots of people around here".

Until then, your claim is unsubstantiated blather.

[Mika]

49. Still no links, I see.

"Lots of people around here seem to love him"


Show us the money (read: links please)!



---

As usual from the Cubaphobes.. big on talk, small on walk.

[QC]

51. One could link to any of your posts, Mika.

Cuba is the only subject I have ever seen you post on here, and you are relentless in your defense of Castro. That's why I laughed out loud at you, of all people, being the one to object to the statement that many people here adore Fidel.

[Mika]

53. I challenge you to post a link of my support for Castro (Castro -not Cuba)

Instead of a puerile general attack, lets see you back up your claim that "lots of people around here seem to love him".


Until then, what you've posted is nonsense - and a personal attack. (But, I won't alert your post. It should stand as evidence as to the nature of typical Cubaphobic/Pavlovian response to most anyone who posts anything informational of Cuba now.)

---

FYI Cuba DOES NOT equal Castro.

[Judi Lynn]

34. From what President are the people from Mexico fleeing?

Apparently you believe Vicente Fox is so powerful and scary that hundreds of Mexican people die trying to cross the Mexico-U.S. border EVERY YEAR.

The same must apply to all the people from Latin America who also come up through Mexico and come across the border, and it would have to apply to the many, many Haitians who drown annually trying to make the trip which can be up to 900 MILES to get to the states.

The continual Caribbean migration, which has people from the Dominican Republic, as one example, ALSO taking boats to Puerto Rico, sometimes drowning, and to other countries, islands indicating ALL these people are also fleeing from some grisly President, as well.

Many news sources no longer even refer to Cubans who come by boat as "refugees," etc., but started using the term "immigrants" a long time ago.

[Texacrat]

88. Nice

n/t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Taxman]

32. That's because Castro has taken away everyone's guns.

Perhaps you should have stayed.

[Judi Lynn]

33. If you spoke with someone who has been to Cuba, you'd learn

Cubans HAVE guns.

How else would they defend themselves against another Bay of Pigs invasion?

Their street policemen, however, DON'T have guns, as testified to by many, many Americans who've visited Cuba.

[The Taxman]

35. The Bay of Pigs...?

That was a long time ago-your boy has been busy since then.

[Judi Lynn]

38. Maybe it would be better if you explained what "your boy" has been

doing, if you think it important enough to mention.

Otherwise, your post just doesn't make much sense.

Speaking of busy, there has been an unbroken series of violent events launched at Cuba and Cuban citizens for over 45 years, by Cuban "exile" terrorists, and the criminals they have also enlisted from Latin America to do some of their dirty work. From the Miami New Times:

The following list of violent incidents I compiled from a variety of databases and news sources (a few come from personal experience). It is incomplete, especially in Miami's trademark category of bomb threats. Nor does it include dozens of acts of violence and murder committed by Cuban exiles in other U.S. cities and at least sixteen foreign countries. But completeness isn't the point. The point is to face the truth, no matter how difficult that may be. If Miami's Cuban exiles confront this shameful past -- and resolutely disavow it -- they will go a long way toward easing their neighbors' anxiety about a peaceful future.


1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind "singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader José Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando Masferrer and Ramon Donestevez murdered in internecine exile power struggles.



1976 Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he publicly condemns exile violence.

1977 Juan José Peruyero murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1979 Cuban film Memories of Underdevelopment interrupted by gunfire and physical violence instigated by two exile groups.

1979 Bomb discovered at Padron Cigars, whose owner helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1979 Bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Powerful anti-personnel bomb discovered at American Airways Charter, which arranges flights to Cuba.

1981 Bomb explodes at Mexican Consulate on Brickell Avenue in protest of relations with Cuba.

1981 Replica's office again damaged by a bomb.

1982 Two outlets of Hispania Interamericana, which ships medicine to Cuba, attacked by gunfire.

1982 Bomb explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in downtown Miami in protest of relations with Cuba.

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

1982 Miami Mayor Maurice Ferre defends $10,000 grant to exile commando group Alpha 66 by noting that the organization "has never been accused of terrorist activities inside the United States."

1983 Another bomb discovered at Replica.

1983 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1983 Bomb explodes at Paradise International, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1983 Miami City Commissioner Demetrio Perez seeks to honor exile terrorist Juan Felipe de la Cruz, accidentally killed while assembling a bomb. (Perez is now a member of the Miami-Dade County Public School Board and owner of the Lincoln-Martí private school where Elian Gonzalez is enrolled.)

1983 Gunfire shatters windows of three Little Havana businesses linked to Cuba.

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in downtown Miami while demonstrating against Nicaraguan contra war.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cuba Envios, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cubanacan, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

1987 Bomb explodes at Machi Viajes a Cuba, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes outside Va Cuba, which ships packages to Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes at Miami Cuba, which ships medical supplies to Cuba.

1988 Bomb threat against Iberia Airlines in protest of Spain's relations with Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes outside Cuban Museum of Art and Culture after auction of paintings by Cuban artists.

1988 Bomb explodes outside home of Maria Cristina Herrera, organizer of a conference on U.S.-Cuba relations.

1988 Bomb threat against WQBA-AM after commentator denounces Herrera bombing.

1988 Bomb threat at local office of Immigration and Naturalization Service in protest of terrorist Orlando Bosch being jailed.

1988 Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of unrestricted travel to Cuba.

1988 Bomb damages Bele Cuba Express, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Another bomb discovered at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Two bombs explode at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1990 Another, more powerful, bomb explodes outside the Cuban Museum of Art and Culture.

1991 Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on Calle Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican actress Veronica Castro, who had visited Cuba.

1992 Union Radio employee beaten and station vandalized by exiles looking for Francisco Aruca, who advocates an end to U.S. embargo.

1992 Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the Miami Herald, whose executives then receive death threats and whose newsracks are defaced and smeared with feces.

1992 Americas Watch releases report stating that hard-line Miami exiles have created an environment in which "moderation can be a dangerous position."

1993 Inflamed by Radio Mambí commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

1994 Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami exiles do not tolerate dissident opinions, that Spanish-language radio promotes aggression, and that local government leaders refuse to denounce acts of intimidation.

1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance of Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant preceding concert by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO-FM following its short-lived decision to include in its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during performance by 91-year-old Cuban musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by Cuban singer Manolín.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.
(snip/)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin_2...

[Mika]

46. After becoming more informed, one can understand that Cuban security..

.. has legitimate reasons to worry about a possible diversion for some Miamicubano exile "activity".

Most Americans have no idea as to the level of violence the exile groups have stooped to.

Its easy to for the uninformed Cubaphobe to use a DU thread to condemn Cuban security for investigating just who is creating a possible diversion at an event that would make a good target for the violent extremists - who have a long history of violence.


Here's an example in today's Miami Merald of one such group, still making plans for violence..

Aging band dreams of revolt
Militants vow to help a Cuban insurrection
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14071661.htm

Bombs and assassination attempts, guns and raids defined the struggle for a free Cuba for decades to small groups of Cuban exiles who thought politics and embargoes would get them nowhere.

-

Recently, a few Cuban exiles, mostly in their 60s and 70s, held a news conference to vow support for an insurrection in Cuba and to aid it through any means necessary.

-

Yet the handful of mostly retirement-age men who met recently at the Municipios de Cuba building in Little Havana to call for an insurgency on the island say they aren't giving up.

''As a Cuban, I support any attempt to overthrow the tyrannical government Castro has put there,'' said Jose Dionisio Suárez, who served seven years in prison for his role in the assassination of Chilean diplomat Orlando Letelier in the 1970s.

Jose Suárez sounds like (read: uses the same adjectives as) some Cubaphobic posters here on DU.

[Boojatta]

54. Re some of the items

...there has been an unbroken series of violent events launched at Cuba and Cuban citizens for over 45 years...

If it has been unbroken, then why did you list nothing for the years 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1978, 1984, 1985, 1995, but multiple items for other years?

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

How soon after? John Lennon was murdered after advocating world peace, but was that why he was murdered?

1979 Bomb discovered at Padron Cigars, whose owner helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

What was the motive for planting the bomb?

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

What is that evidence of?

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

Another batch of exactly 3600? How do you know there is any connection between a bomb explosion at an office of a bank and the negotiation of release of political prisoners by one executive of the bank? What was the motive for the bombing?

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in downtown Miami while demonstrating against Nicaraguan contra war.

Why were they called "South Florida Peace Coalition members" if they were Cuban citizens demonstrating in Miami?

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

How many Bay of Pigs veterans were there in 1987?

[OKNancy]

36. My sister went about four years ago, she said there were armed

Army types on every street corner. She said that this was in the city, where the tourists were and that she actually felt very safe because of this. She also said that they all were "really hot-looking". She didn't see much of this out in the country-side. ( She was able to get away because she was with a photo-journalist who was able to go off the beaten path)

[Judi Lynn]

37. Sorry, I just noticed your post. Maybe this could help.

I've heard US travelers who've been to Cuba speaking at various times about what I wrote earlier, so I thought I'd take a quick google look to see if there was anything which might substantiate what I've heard. Found this immediately:

From "Misconceptions about Cuba"

6. There's a cop on every corner. Wrong! This is a favorite of embedded reporters who haven't been on every corner. In fact, there is a substantial police presence in tourist concentration zones, which means single cops or pairs, with tiny guns or no guns, on foot, whose main function is to makes sure nothing happens to the tourists (including a possible staged incident to justify an attack). Walk one block away from the tourist zone and keep walking and you may not see another cop all day. There is very little police presence in Cuba and almost no military presence.
(snip)

http://www.iammyownreporter.com/misconceptions.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This sounds very similar to the comments I've heard. Americans, like the European, Latin American, Caribbean, Asian, African tourists can rent cars, bicycles, even RV's and wander all over the island at will.

There are DU'ers who've combed the island from one end to the next. There's one DU'er who even wrote a book about her Cuba travel, with photos. I know she certainly wasn't lying.

[Mika]

39. Strange. I've not seen armed army types on street corners in Cuba..

.. and I've been there many times. Never seen it.

Was she at a military base or something?

Maybe, since she thought "they" were all "really hot-looking", she was mistaking something else as a gun.

[Mika]

41. Cuba has a very large civil militia.

They keep their small arms at home (AKs and pistols) - at the ready. The big stuff is kept in armories that are available at short notice - just in case the US tries something stupid again. They train regularly.

[Boojatta]

52. Can you spot the joke in this batch of questions?

Mr Castro can drive around in Cuba in an open jeep, stop at a market, go on a jog without being surrounded by machine gun wielding guards.

Is it possible that most of his enemies who are in Cuba are nonviolent people? Does Salman Rushdie jog around with no guard? Should Salman Rushdie resign from his job as Prime Minister of the U.K.?

Mr Castro can speak in front of hundreds of thousands of Cubans at rallies and celebrations of all kinds and not wear kevlar...

How do you know what he's wearing?

[Mika]

59. Yes.

Yes.
I don't know what Salman Rushdie does when he jogs.
He's not PM of the UK.

--

I've seen him speak. In Cuba.

[happydreams]

56. And Fidel can see to the education of his people, where

a whopping 95%+ literacy exists. What kind of tyrant educates his people? What kind president tries to turn schools into churches?

[Mika]

60. Note: Castro doesn't do it. The Cuban people do.

Its the Cuban educators who have worked the wonders of Cuba's world class education system - not Castro.


Despite the accusations that I am Castro's #1 fan - I often point out, on these "Cuba threads", that Mr Castro isn't responsible for the high quality health care and education programs in Cuba. Nor is he responsible for the fact that there is zero homeless population in Cuba. Nor is he responsible for Cuba's fight for sovereignty and independence from US control.

All of these things are the workings of the vast majority of the Cuban people, not Mr Castro.

Blaming Castro for all of Cuba's ills and crediting Castro for all of the good works of Cuba is Cubaphobic propaganda that serves only to distract from the fact that an overwhelming majority of the Cuban people support the Revolution - the development of their infrastructure and sovereignty.


No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care needs to be forced on any population. Mr Castro didn't give it to them either. Together, nearly all Cubans worked hard for decades to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

The Cuban people wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system.

The people of Cuba wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it.

Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Viva the good people of Cuba!

[Bacchus39]

67. doesn't Norway have free health care and 95% literacy??

and alot of other countries. including Canada by the way. A repressive dictatorship is not required to achieve those things.

US doctors provide alot of services around the world. there are plenty of medical organizations that do charity work. they are not government sponsored so in my mind that is an even better expression of good will than government mandated medical missions.

[killbotfactory]

72. Is Norway under embargo by the US?

[Bacchus39]

73. does Norway have a dictator?

n/t

[killbotfactory]

74. Cuba is a bit different than Norway

To dismiss the accomplishments of Cuba, (considering their history, our embargo,attempts to destabalize their government, support for exile terrorists, etc) because of Castro is kind of silly.

[Bacchus39]

75. nevertheless, a dictator, police state, and repression of free speech

is not a requirement for having a free health care system and high literacy rate.

[killbotfactory]

76. Of course not

And effectively laying siege to a nation doens't promote freedom or democracy.

[Mika]

89. Nevertheless..

.. world class universal health care system and a 99% literacy rate are simply not hallmarks of any dictatorship.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Endangered Specie]

21. ... and they make fun of others for getting upset over cartoons.

[NaturalHigh]

22. Fidel Castro is a murderous tyrant.

I have no problem with an anti-Castro sign at a baseball game. The Cuban official should have realized that he wasn't in Cuba, where you can die in prison for opposing Castro.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

69. That's RW propaganda

Not that i have a problem with anti-anything signs anywhere.

[Judi Lynn]

31. As we learned early on in the pResident's rule here, if someone shows up

with an anti-_Bush sign, the very least that they can expect is to be shown to the Free Speech Zone.



Don't make us go to our files to start hauling out incidents of people even being harrassed for possessing anti-_Bush artwork, posters, etc.. They've been posted countless times already, starting near the first of his occupation of the White House.

[RagingInMiami]

40. That picture is a little too unrealistic

There would be no megaphones in a Bush free speech zone.

[Mika]

42. Hey, Raging.. I heard malloy reading your email on Lynyrd Skynyrd

Very cool.

[RagingInMiami]

44. Yes, it was very cool

I had no idea he was going to do that because he gets so many e-mails, so I was very flattered. Even more flattered how he played three Lynyrd Skynyrd songs over the next few minutes.

[Judi Lynn]

45. Oh, it's only for show. It's a cardboard replica! Kinda soggy by now.

[RagingInMiami]

43. If I hold a "Down With Bush" sign behind home plate at the World Series

The same thing would happen to me, except it wouldn't be the American equivilant of the "vice president of Cuba's National Institute of Sports", that would probably be somebody in Bud Selig's office.

No, it would be someone much more powerful than that, who would not allow local police to intervene and "lecture him about free speech".

[geek tragedy]

47. How dare he criticize the Dear Leader?

Those who oppose Fidel hate humanity, justice, and Cuba! Loyalty to Fidel Castro is an absolute requirement to be a good person!

Authoritarian cultists, be they of the left or right, are so tedious.

[1932]

48. Doesn't free speech extend to having a discussion about the sign?

Why do you get arrested when you respond to the sign?

[Bacchus39]

61. being belligerent and trying to suppress someone else's

free speech is NOT free speech.



"We explained to him that here the constitutional right to free expression exists and that it is not a crime,"

[jberryhill]

65. If I paid to see a baseball game...

...and someone were blocking my view with a political sign, then I would surely attempt to suppress their "free speech".

Did anyone find out the final score of the game?

On edit:

ah... here it is:

Inning..........1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 FINAL
Cuba............2 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 1 11
Netherlands...0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 2

...just in case anyone else cared about what was going on in that disturbance down there on the field during this political rally.

[Bacchus39]

66. Puerto Rico 12 Cuba 2

[jberryhill]

70. Wrong game

"While Cuba played the Netherlands in the World Baseball Classic..."

[1932]

87. How'd you get that out of the article?

I only read what you quoted, and I read it quickly, so I might have missed it. But I got the impression that he argued with the guy about what the sign said. Free speech doesn't mean you're free from having to defend your speech or engage in the debates your speech promotes.

[jberryhill]

50. I would have thrown them both out

So, what was the final score of the game?

You know... the BASEBALL game that was going on, which was the reason everyone was there.

Since when did every mass gathering of people for an event become a "lookit me" contest?

[murdoch]

55. Did Mercado explain to him about US imperialism in Puerto Rico?

"We explained to him that here the constitutional right to free expression exists and that it is not a crime," police Col. Adalberto Mercado was quoted as saying in El Nuevo Dia, a San Juan daily.

What a joke - the US has been harassing, arresting, and killing Puerto Ricans who want the US out of Puerto Rico for over a century. This reminds me of when some Filipino puppet criticized Khrushchev in the UN. Khrushchev banged his shoe on the desk and called him "a jerk, a stooge and a lackey of imperialism". Of course these sorts of things are forgotten by the corporate media, it just remembers Khrushchev banging his shoe, or some puppet pig talking about free speech.

[Bacchus39]

62. Puerto Rico independentistas about 4% of the population

Puerto Rico is afraid to go independent.

[Mika]

63. Why do so many Puerto Ricans flee to the US?

It must be some totalitarian hellhole for so many to have fled their country.

[Bacchus39]

64. because they can

n/t

[Mika]

79. Huh? That's not an answer.

Puerto Ricans have no US Adjustment Act like Cubans do. But still they flee to the US.

Many people from all over the Latin Americas and Caribbean come to the US, none have an Adjustment Act like Cubans do.

Cubans are coming to the US from the same reasons that people come to the US from all over the Latin Americas and Caribbean. Jobs.

Except one thing.. Cubans are treated differently when they come to the US. Cubans are treated better than any other group of immigrants in the US.

Cubans are granted special immigration perks that are offered to no other immigrant group seeking entry into the US.

Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with "despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other extra territorrial economic sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba in addition to increased sanctions on the island and US & foreign corporations that seek to do business with Cuba.

The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants, and has been accused by many on both sides og the Gulf Stream that they are deliberately slowing the process.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks)

For Cuban migrants ONLY - including the aforementioned illegal immigrants who are smuggled in as well as those who have failed a US background check for a legal visa who make it here by whatever means - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption for Cuban expats only), instant food stamps, plus more. IOW, extra special enhanced social programs designed to entice Cuban expatriation to Miami/USA.

Despite these programs designed to offer a 'carrot on a stick' to Cubans only, the Cubaphobe rhetoric loop constantly, and with a propaganda agenda, repeats the question "why do Cubans come to the US then?" over and over. Hoping that those who are presented with this question are dumb as a rock on Cuban migration.


First the US forces economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans.

But yet, more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (until Bush's recent one visit every 3 yrs restrictions on Cuban expats living in the US).

Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba, the US Cuban Adjustment Act, and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban tourism economy (its #1 sector) would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage and quality of life in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.

[The Taxman]

83. If Fidel would allow Cuba to be free, the embargo would be history.

But what I don't understand is why the US embargo should matter. After all, Cuba is free to trade with rest of the world. Do they really need us?

Of course not. The paltry conditions that Cubans must deal with have nothing do with the embargo; rather, they are a result of Cuba's failed economic system and the overall lack of freedom.

But you knew that, didn't you?

[Mika]

85. Castro this Castro that. Ho hum.

If you took the time to read a little about the Helms-Burton law you would learn that it is an extra territorial trade sanction on foreign companies - not just Cuba.


I guess that you didn't know that - based on your misinformed post.

[Judi Lynn]

94. It would be progressive of you to learn more about the embargo.

Hope this may help:

"Denial of Food and Medicine:
The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo
On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba"
-An Executive Summary-
American Association for World Health Report
Summary of Findings
March 1997

After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health has determined that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has dramatically harmed the health and nutrition of large numbers of ordinary Cuban citizens. As documented by the attached report, it is our expert medical opinion that the U.S. embargo has caused a significant rise in suffering-and even deaths-in Cuba. For several decades the U.S. embargo has imposed significant financial burdens on the Cuban health care system. But since 1992 the number of unmet medical needs patients going without essential drugs or doctors performing medical procedures without adequate equipment-has sharply accelerated. This trend is directly linked to the fact that in 1992 the U.S. trade embargo-one of the most stringent embargoes of its kind, prohibiting the sale of food and sharply restricting the sale of medicines and medical equipment-was further tightened by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

A humanitarian catastrophe has been averted only because the Cuban government has maintained a high level of budgetary support for a health care system designed to deliver primary and preventive health care to all of its citizens. Cuba still has an infant mortality rate half that of the city of Washington, D.C.. Even so, the U.S. embargo of food and the de facto embargo on medical supplies has wreaked havoc with the island's model primary health care system. The crisis has been compounded by the country's generally weak economic resources and by the loss of trade with the Soviet bloc.

Recently four factors have dangerously exacerbated the human effects of this 37-year-old trade embargo. All four factors stem from little-understood provisions of the U.S. Congress' 1992 Cuban Democracy Act (CDA):

1. 1. A Ban on Subsidiary Trade: Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba's ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.
   
   
2. 2. Licensing Under the Cuban Democracy Act: The U.S. Treasury and Commerce Departments are allowed in principle to license individual sales of medicines and medical supplies, ostensibly for humanitarian reasons to mitigate the embargo's impact on health care delivery. In practice, according to U.S. corporate executives, the licensing provisions are so arduous as to have had the opposite effect. As implemented, the licensing provisions actively discourage any medical commerce. The number of such licenses granted-or even applied for since 1992-is minuscule. Numerous licenses for medical equipment and medicines have been denied on the grounds that these exports "would be detrimental to U.S. foreign policy interests."
   
   
3. 3. Shipping Since 1992:The embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.
   
   
4. 4. Humanitarian Aid: Charity is an inadequate alternative to free trade in medicines, medical supplies and food. Donations from U.S. non-governmental organizations and international agencies do not begin to compensate for the hardships inflicted by the embargo on the Cuban public health system. In any case, delays in licensing and other restrictions have severely discouraged charitable contributions from the U.S.
   (snip/...)

American Association for World Health
1825 K Street, NW, Suite 1208
Washington, DC 20006
Tel. [phone] / FAX [phone]
Email: [e-mail]

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/aawh.html

[Bacchus39]

96. wait a minute, someone said Cuba had a world class health system

now it appears it isn't so.

[Judi Lynn]

97. You haven't made a point that it isn't.

This story appeared on Page A13 of The Standard-Times on March 15, 2005.
Cuba's remarkable commitment to health care


No world leader has been so consistently demonized for so long by so many successive U.S. administrations as Fidel Castro. It was therefore a surprise to read an article in the New England Journal of Medicine Dec. 23 issue entitled "Affirmative Action, Cuban Style."
It appears that despite our mindless embargo which includes access to medications and medical technology, Mr. Castro has invested heavily in his country's health care. This has resulted in:

• A doctor to patient ratio twice that in the U.S.
  
  
• Lower rates of infant mortality and a comparable life expectancy to ours.
  
  
• Since 1996, 7,100 Cuban physicians going to work in the world's poorest countries. (The proportional number from the U.S. would be 175,000 to match Cuba's humanitarian contribution.)
  
  
• At the Latin America School of Medicine in Havana, students from 27 countries and 60 ethnic groups are enrolled. The same free scholarships are now being offered to and accepted by students from poor and underprivileged areas in the United States. The only condition attached is that they return to practice in the same poverty-stricken areas from which they came.
  As the editorialist at the New England Journal of Medicine remarks, "What an irony that poor Cuba is training doctors for rich America, engaging in affirmative action on our behalf and -- while blockaded by U.S. ships and sanctions -- spending its meager treasure to improve the health of U.S. citizens. Whether one considers this a cunning move by one of history's great chess players or an extraordinary gesture of civic generosity -- or a bit of both -- it should encourage us to re-examine our stalled efforts to achieve greater racial and ethnic parity in American medicine."

DR. STEWART KIRKALDY
Westport
Editor's note: Dr. Kirkaldy is a physician.

[Mika]

98. Cuba does have a world class h-c system, despite the sanctions

It is evidence as to the dedication to their health care system that ALL Cubans have, not just Castro.


Learn from Cuba
Or here - http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html (Thanks Judi Lynn.)

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

--

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

[Judi Lynn]

101. Love that article, Mika. The link blew up, so I look up 1 of the remaining

sources carrying it:

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html

I remember reading James Wolfensohn's original remarks when he first published them several years ago. Most interesting to hear someone from the World Bank making these claims, wasn't it?

[Bacchus39]

95. Puerto Ricans "fleeing" to the US, please elaborate more

"Puerto Ricans have no US Adjustment Act like Cubans do. But still they flee to the US."

a fascinating analysis. from your statement above, do you believe it is easier for Cubans to go to the US than Puertoricans? What should be done about this?

[Mika]

99. I forgot the quotes around "flee".

Puerto Ricans "flee" to the US for the same reasons that Cubans "flee" to the US - jobs.

That was my point.


Yes, Cubans have the US Cuban Adjustment Act to assist their migration (legal or not) to the US, unlike any other nationality of immigrant.

[Bacchus39]

100. one more question

how are all these puertoricans getting to the US in the first place?

[Mika]

102. Oh man!

Like the vast majority of Cubans who move to the US. With a US approved immigration visa.

[Bacchus39]

104. lol Mika, what if I told you that puertoricans (drumroll)

are US citizens and have been since 1917? being so, of course you know this, they would not require a US visa to travel to and from the US. Also, they would be free to live and work anywhere in the US. how does it feel to be completely clueless?

[Mika]

107. Correct.

Just meant that most Cubans, like Puerto Ricans, move here legally.

Not clueless. My bad. Too hasty in posting. Thanks for the correction.

[Bacchus39]

112. yeah, as opposed to puerto ricans immigrating "illegally"

you might want to just quit and simply get up to speed on the US-PR history and political relationship. Here is a link to get you on your way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico

[Judi Lynn]

103. It's not unusual to read new accounts of people from the Dominican

Republican drowning, trying to "flee" to Puerto Rico, Mika!

Some people would be delighted if there was a way to keep others completely unaware of the continual migration of people migrating throughout the Caribbean to other places. It would take the "special" quality away from the Cuban immigrants.

Here's an example:

Interception of migrants in Nicaragua

107. The Nicaraguan authorities rescued the corpses of three persons, presumably migrants of Colombian or Ecuadorian origin, who drowned at high sea when the vessel in which they were traveling to the United States shipwrecked. The bodies were found when a group of persons voluntarily approached officials at the government immigration offices in Puerto Cabezas. Nicaraguan authorities reported an increase in the flow of Ecuadorian citizens detained in the country or in territorial waters who were traveling to the United States.
(snip)

and

Colombians in Panama

119. In the wake of the deportation of a group of approximately 100 Colombians from Panama in April 2003, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights issued precautionary measures aimed at protecting the life and personal integrity of two of these persons, who had been detained by the Panamanian authorities, and to protect the security and health and guarantee the family unification of four minors. The measures also called for the Panamanian government to comply with the obligation of non-refoulement with respect to Colombians who seek protection in Panama. The Colombian and Panamanian authorities announced that approximately 300 Colombian persons (59 families) who have been living in Panama will be repatriated in the month of December 2003. The authorities indicate that the repatriation is voluntary.
(snip/...)

http://www.cidh.org/annualrep/2003eng/chap.5b.htm

[Mika]

105. Not to mention that Haitians are deported back to Haiti.

There's no Haitian Adjustment Act despite the documented brutality there. But, since it's US sponsored brutality its OK to ship Haitians right back. (Plus there's the racism factor.)

[Bacchus39]

106. there are many Dominicans who flee to Puerto Rico

ask any puerto rican about that.

also to Florida and other states like New York. Puerto Rico a US territory, something you already knew of course like MIka (hahahahaha), is just a hop away from the DR. once in PR they are in the US as far as immigration and customs goes so travel to the US is easy.

[Mika]

108. Its easy for Cubans to move to the US (if they are US approved for a visa)

That's just how the vast majority of Cubans come to the US.

Unlike any other immigrant group, Cubans have the 'Wet Foot/Dry Foot' that allows illegal entrants to stay and, like legal Cuban migrants, reap the benefits of the Cuban Adjustment Act (even those who have failed to qualify for a legal immigration visa due to a criminal record or some such disqualifying reason after a US interests section criminal background investigation in Cuba).

[Judi Lynn]

109. Info. on Dominicans drowning trying to get to Puerto Rico.From whom

are they "fleeing?" They do this WITHOUT the reward of so many inducements given the Cuban immigrants at the end of their journey, like instant legal status, green card, social security, U.S. taxpayer-funded Section 8 housing, food stamps, medical care, financial assistance for education, etc.!

Factual Background for

PRECINCT PUERTO RICO: BOOK ONE
At the core of PRECINCT PUERTO RICO: BOOK ONE is a shipwreck. Dozens of undocumented immigrants from the Dominican Republic drown in a failed attempt to reach shore on Puerto Rico, a Caribbean island whose residents are all American citizens. The incident in the novel is a fictionalized depiction of a tragedy that occurs all too often in real life.

In January 2001, Yves Colon of The Miami Herald reported that "as many as 53 migrants from the Dominican Republic were missing and presumed drowned…after their boat capsized." Three survivors had been rescued, and they each claimed to have paid $4,000 to be ferried across the Mona Passage between the two islands.

In March of 2000, 10 bodies were recovered but as many as 30 others were lost when their boat was "dashed apart by the waves" (Manuel Ernesto Rivera, AP). Earlier that same year, 16 bodies were recovered by the U.S. Coast Guard and the Dominican navy after another sinking. In this case, the boat had nearly arrived at Puerto Rico when its engines died. The currents pushed the boat back towards the Dominican Republic. An unknown number of victims were missing.

The one constant in all these stories, and in many others like them each year, is the uncertainty of the numbers involved. No source knows for sure how many boats attempt the journey across rough seas each year or how many passengers they carry. Of those missing, no one knows how many eventually make it to shore safely and how many drown.
(snip/...)

http://www.steventorres.com/ppr_one.html

[Bacchus39]

110. Domincans dying at sea, happens all the time

n/t

[Judi Lynn]

111. So? It's used as a proof of how desperate Cuban immigrants who don't

wait to use the visa system are to "flee" from Cuba. Your response to people who claim Cubans drown trying to "flee" from Cuba should also be, "happens all the time."

Consistancy adds to your credibility.

[Bacchus39]

113. I am sure it does, Cuba won't tell

Cuba isn't going to tell the international press let alone their own people how many people were caught trying to flee or died attempting. I mean they are traitors to the Revolucion aren't they??

why does Dominicans drowning at sea relate to Cubans fleeing Cuba. The US also issues visas to Dominicans. Hard to get though.

unlike Cuba though, Dominicans don't require an exit stamp from their own government. So Cubans can only leave "legally" if the Cuban government says they can.

[Judi Lynn]

114. Would you provide a link explaining Cuban exit stamps? Thank you.n/t

[Bacchus39]

115. yep tarjeta blanca info here

http://havana.usinterestsection.gov/immigrant_info.html

http://www.dtcuba.com/eng/cocoweb/coco_faq_showanswer.a...

[Judi Lynn]

116. I don't get it. I was required to designate a person, who would be

acting as an official contact, and an address where I would be staying when I left the U.S. to go to an Asian country, and I paid fees to get a passport, etc. I wasn't allowed to walk off onto the plane without a faretheewell.

I'm missing something, apparently.

It would see likely all countries expect people who are leaving, permanently, to close their affairs officially, and a fee would obviously be appropriate.

[Bacchus39]

117. I don't get what you are saying

and who said anything about leaving permanently? the tarjeta blanca apparently is needed by Cubans for all travel. Yeah, some countries require US citizens to have a visa from THEIR country. I had to get a visa from the Brazilian embassy to go to Brazil. But I didn't need permission from the US government.

[Judi Lynn]

118. I would imagine the confusion lies with me. I have a void concerning

exit stamps, still. I do know Cubans have come and gone from Cuba to the U.S. in the years before _Bush cracked down really hard on US/Cuba travel. They came to the U.S. for any number of reasons, and returned home. People in South Florida would tell you this. The back and forth travel by Cubans to the U.S. was also described clearly in a book by former New York Times writer, Ann Louise Bardach.

[rman]

68. "Down with W" at the superbowl, anyone?

It's free speech, right?

[jberryhill]

71. Not unless the stadium is a "public forum"

Are any of these stadiums public property?

[Radio_Guy]

77. Only one man with one sign

If Castro was so hated, you would think there would be many more people with many more signs. I dare say you have far more anti-Bush protestors than anti-Castro protestors.

[Bacchus39]

78. well, of course but it wasn't a political rally

of Bush or Castro, nor an anti-Bush or anti-Castro rally. it was a baseball game.

[Fountain79]

81. Yeah...

It's not like there are cubans floating in rafts and/or swimming in shark infested waters to get over here.

[Mika]

82. Silly response. See post #79

Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Fountain79]

84. Is United States the only country that has this trade restriction n/t?

[Mika]

86. It is a sanction on all companies that might trade w/Cuba.

Domestic and foreign companies are sanctioned from trading with Cuba.

Maybe you should take some time to learn about the US's Helms-Burton law and the so called Libertad Act.


It would help to learn about the range of issues before "debating" US/Cuba relations.

[JackRiddler]

80. Bullshit on the free speech argument

You would NEVER be allowed to hold up a political sign at any major league baseball game. Never.

"Guess this guy" didn't realize he wasn't in the United States, either.

And I suspect any sign against Bush would have been immediately taken down by the stadium management in Puerto Rico, as well.

[Judi Lynn]

119. Who doesn't remember one of the earliest anti-Bush sign skirmishes?

Protesters kept at a distance; three arrested
By KEVIN GRAHAM and ANGELA MOORE

© St. Petersburg Times,
published June 5, 2001
TAMPA -- People who parked in the assigned lots and walked to Legends Field to see President Bush probably didn't see many protest signs.

That's because the 150 or so protesters were kept in a cordoned-off "First Amendment zone" about a half-mile away, at the corner of Dale Mabry Highway and Tampa Bay Boulevard. The boisterous group waved signs that read "SAVE OUR GULF" and "Bush oil and our water don't mix."

Inside the ballpark, three demonstrators carrying anti-Bush signs were arrested after they refused to leave, Tampa police spokeswoman Katie Hughes said.

Janis Marie Lentz, 55, of New Port Richey, Mauricio Rosas, 37, of Tampa, and Sonja Haught, 59, of Clearwater, were each charged with trespassing after warning, police said. Haught also was charged with disorderly conduct because police say she tried to resist arrest.

Walter Sorenson, 81, of New Port Richey was knocked down after police shoved one of the arrested women, he said. He suffered a cut on his head.

Sorenson said he was carrying an anti-Bush sign too, but put it in his pocket when told to.

"I asked them (security) how come everyone else could wave Bush signs and we couldn't have our signs," Sorenson said. "They said, "You don't make the rules. We make the rules.' "
(snip/...)

http://www.sptimes.com/News/060501/TampaBay/Protesters_...

[Mika]

120. Go figure this violation.

Cuban dentists freed, welcomed into U.S.
South Florida families welcomed two Cuban
dentists released from a Bahamian detention
center after months of political wrangling.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14100374.htm

Both dentists had received visas from the U.S. government to come to the United States, but Cuba had denied them exit visas. So they took their chances at sea, where the U.S. Coast Guard found them in Bahamian waters in April 2005, and turned them over to Bahamian authorities, said U.S. Sen. Mel Martinez in a written statement. Cuba restricts exit visas for doctors and other professionals because the communist government requires them to work for several years to pay back Cuba's ''free'' public education.

-

Bahamian officials explained that neither their government nor the United Nations High Commission for Refugees had determined that the dentists had a credible claim of a well-founded fear of persecution in Cuba. So they did not qualify to be political refugees in the Bahamas, said Bahamian government spokesman Al Dillette in a written statement.

Simply amazing. How much payola was used to make this happen? Why are these two Cubans so special? Just how do they get to leave for the USA? A clear violation of Cuban emigration law (except when it concerns Cubans entering the US. Then, anything goes. All Cuban-American representatives push unrelentingly, using US taxpayer resources, for illegal Cuban migration). Just another example of how the US refuses to recognize international norms when it comes to socialized infrastructure.

Many countries that have socialized medical systems have similar laws as Cuba regarding emigration of medical/dental grads. For example, Canadians who receive gov financed medical/dental training have to serve a certain number of years before they can legally emigrate from Canada.

[Bacchus39]

121. why aren't they allowed to go in the first place??

"Both dentists had received visas from the U.S. government to come to the United States, but Cuba had denied them exit visas."

thank you for making my point about how Cuba keeps a stranglehold on its own citizens. what is the purpose of restricting their travel??

Canadians can leave the country anytime they want. why not Cubans?

[Mika]

124. Canadians who receive gov ed for medicine can't emigrate..

.. without having first served their required duty (or paying the fees for their education first). That is the same case with the Cuban dentists in the story.

[Judi Lynn]

125. Seems reasonable, doesn't it? Of course there are some corruptible ones

who see nothing wrong with accepting an excellent free medical education and moving to Miami to make the big bucks. But that doesn't really happen too often, anyway.

You hear a lot of praise for Cuban doctors from the people they help in other countries.

[Mika]

127. Of course its reasonable policy. But, are the Cubaphobes reasonable?

They'll go to nearly any length to twist reason.

Most all countries that have socialized/publicly funded medical education have a required service period before they can emigrate.

[Bacchus39]

130. to practice in Cuba perhaps but not the US or anywhere else

many countries require their new medical professions to work in a year or so in country as a prerequisite of practicing medicine in THAT country.

if you study in Mexico though for example, there is no requirement for having to do a year of internship in Mexico to practice in the United States. If the medical students meet the US qualifications and pass the required US examinations they can earn a residency in the US or Canada or wherever. The in country requirement only applies if you are going to practice medicine in country. if they emigrate, they must meet the requirements of the country they are going to.

[Bacchus39]

129. ahh so Canadians can pay back their fees

and simply set up shop in the US and pay back their responsibilities. Canadians aren't restricted from leaving in the first place. if fact, it would be very easiy for them to do. but Cuba wouldn't let them leave at all.

[Mika]

131. They have to pay prior to leaving.

Or they can't emigrate.

[Bacchus39]

132. prove it

are you saying that Canadians can't travel to the US for vacation or to visit their families??

Cuba wouldn't let those two guys leave at all to visit their families.

[Mika]

134. I'm saying no such thing.

There is a difference between emigration and visitation.

[Bacchus39]

135. prove that Canada won't let their citizens "emigrate"

a Canadian can take a residency in the US and vice versa. any debts incurred during med school are the individual responsibility of the student.

Canada does not prevent emigration like Cuba does. the country they are emigrating to regulates immigration and what type of visa they get, tourist, student, work. an exception is Cuba of course.

[Mika]

137. It depends on whether their ed is paid privately or not.

Canada has a unique system that is/can be both privately and publicly funded. It also has both national and provincial funding systems. If a student gets public financing then a contract for service in the public sector for a set period is made. I don't know all of the complexities, but I do know that Canadians under contract must fulfill their contract of service (which might or might not be in Canada).

[Bacchus39]

138. yeah, they have to pay back their loans, just like I did

when I paid back my student loans. no-one prevented me from leaving the country.

if they want to practice IN CANADA they may have to do some sort of service. but that does not prevent Canadians from leaving Canada to practice in another country or opening a bar in Brazil.

[Mika]

126. Here's why -threats of sanctions on the Bahamas

THREATS PLAYED NO PART IN RELEASE
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/america...

NASSAU -- The Bahamas was not pressured into allowing two Cuban dentists -- held in the Caribbean nation for nearly a year -- to travel to the United States, the country's foreign minister said Wednesday.

The U.S. government, Florida's governor and some members of Florida's congressional delegation had pushed the Bahamas to release David González-Mejías and Marialis Darias-Mesa, who arrived Tuesday in Florida. Rep. Connie Mack IV, R-Fla., had also threatened to pursue economic sanctions against the Caribbean nation.

Orwellian? Threats were not used. Threats were used.

[Bacchus39]

128. they didn't get to leave for the USA

Castro wouldn't let them. they had their US visas but Castro wouldn't let them leave. Maybe they wanted to take their families to Disney World?? here is the part of the story you didn't highlight

"David Gonzalez-Mejias and Marialys Darias-Mesa arrived in Fort Lauderdale on Tuesday afternoon, reuniting with spouses and children who had been anxiously awaiting their release."

their families were in the US yet still Cuba wouldn't let them leave.

and Canada does not restrict travel of its citizens to the US, doctors dentists or otherwise. are you telling me that new Canadian doctors can't travel to the US to visit their families.

if fact Canadian medical schools have recipricol certification with the US. so that their new doctors and dentists can practice here and vice versa. their debts incurred as a result of loans or otherwise are their responsibility.

[Mika]

133. Foreign doctors still have to pass US board exams + internships.

The schools might be cross certified, but otherwise the grads still have to pass the boards in the country they wish to practice.

--


The Cuban dentists left Cuba using an illegal method as agreed by the US/Cuba immigration accords (not to mention that they were violating their contractual agreement with the Cuban Ministry of Health).

Just because the Cuban families are living in the US doesn't mean that the Cuban Drs can skip out of their contracted obligation (that they agreed to) to serve according to the Cuban Ministry of Health.

Yes they can vist the US as long as they get their visas, but its the US that has been denying the visas to Cubans for visits. These Drs got their US immigration visas approved, but they still had to complete their contractual agreements in exchange for their free educations and that is why the Cuban government (not Castro, as you constantly repeat) denied their emigration visas.

[Bacchus39]

136. the US did not deny the visa, Cuba denied the exit permit

which is the only country I know that has such a program.


yes, the Cuban dentists would have to meet US requirements. which do not include forced labor in Cuba.

[Mika]

139. That's what I said. The US granted an **immigration** visa.

These Cuban Drs must fulfill their contract before they could emigrate from Cuba legally. If they signed and agreed to their contract its not forced labor. Its contracted service.

--

BTW, they were being held in the Bahamas, where they had entered illegally.


From the link posted in post #120..

Bahamian officials explained that neither their government nor the United Nations High Commission for Refugees had determined that the dentists had a credible claim of a well-founded fear of persecution in Cuba. So they did not qualify to be political refugees in the Bahamas, said Bahamian government spokesman Al Dillette in a written statement.

[Bacchus39]

140. so we agree its a Cuban thing and not a Canadian

thing or a practice of other countries. Since Canadians aren't prohibited from traveling to the US in the first place and their is no exit permit requirement. if I go to live say in Colombia, I will need a Colombian residency visa. I do not need permission from the US government.

do you think that these dentists should have been allowed to be reunited with their families?? maybe Cuba should have issuesd 30 day exit permit and then they would have to come back. hahahaha

[Mika]

141. Every country has its own laws. Duh.

You need a US travel permit to visit Cuba, even if you wanted to visit a relative - chances are you wouldn't get it. The US restricts travel to Cuba, even to Cuban immigrants, to DIRECT FAMILY MEMBERS ONLY, and even then - ONCE EVERY THREE YEARS. So, as far as that is concerned the US is similar to Cuba.


From today's Miami Herald
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/america...

New rules impede religious travel

Church groups and members of the U.S. Congress vented their frustrations over new restrictions affecting religious travel to Cuba at a meeting Wednesday with Bush administration officials in Washington.

The meeting was in response to a March 3 bipartisan letter signed by 105 lawmakers, asking the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control to explain why travel licenses for some U.S. church groups were not being renewed.

''It was an opportunity for church leaders to express their frustrations with the new restrictions,'' said Rep. Jim McGovern, D-Mass., who attended the meeting. He added the group ''didn't get a lot of concrete responses'' and that the discussions would continue.

The groups were told to reapply for more restrictive licenses, which limit the number of people who can travel and the number of trips per year. The groups say these requirements are hard to meet.

'Sadly, people began skirting the sanctions by traveling under the guise of `religious' activities,''' said Treasury spokeswoman Molly Millerwise. ``Steps were taken to structure the licenses to better preserve the integrity of legitimate religious travel.''

--


FYI, I know many Cubans (including Cuban dentists) who have come to Miami, taken courses, gone shopping, trips to Disney, etc, and then returned to Cuba. That was before the Bush admin increased the denying of travel visas to Cubans. There have been many threads here on DU relating to the Bush admin denying travel visas to professionals, scholars, artists, and sports teams.

[Bacchus39]

142. yeah, I am against that too. the travel permit and the embargo

but that has nothing to do with your claim that Canadians cannot "emigrate". and an exit permit is required for all Cuban travel not just to the USA. the USA travel restrictions are limited to a handfull of countries.

the US should get rid of the special Cuban requirement and Cuba should allow its citizens to travel unconditionally as well.