Anti-semitism in UK 'unacceptably high'

[Behind the Aegis]

Jewish community leaders yesterday described the level of anti-semitism in Britain as unacceptably high as it emerged that the number of incidents last year was the second highest on record.

The Community Security Trust recorded 455 anti-semitic race hate incidents throughout the UK in 2005, continuing the rising trend since 1979 when 219 instances were reported.

last paragraph

[northzax]

1. anti-semitism is like a cancer

one is 'unacceptably high'

[Behind the Aegis]

3. I agree!!!

One is too high for any type of 'hate' crime!

[fakeshemp]

130. Absolutely right. n/t

[blm]

2. I think the problem is Bush and Blair policy that favors attacking Muslim

countries. It's easy for people to believe that they're doing it for Israel, given the rhetoric and the hypocrisy.

Personally, I think Bush could care less about Israel and is using it as bait so he can have his perpetual Holy War with the Bush and Bin Laden families profitting from these wars for decades to come.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Perhaps...

...but it doesn't excuse anti-semitic attacks. (I am not suggesting you are saying or implying that.) Your post does show that people often conflate Jews with Israel, and vise versa.

[blm]

9. of course there is no excuse for it - but I think the rise in antiSemitism

isn't happening in a vacuum - it serves the purpose for the fascist agenda, that's for sure., so I would guess that it's being stirred up deliberately by the rhetoric from official governments that have something to gain.

It's not ME who conflates Jews with Israel, but the majority of the global populace who I am just trying to analyze much the same as anyone here does.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. It is totally "transference"

Rove is providing a convenient scapegoat in the "Jewish Conspiracy.
- The Jews in PNAC and the Jews in AIPAC aren't worth a pimple on an oil patch tool pusher's left butt cheek compared to "Big Oil."

Most people - when they hear PNAC

1. Have never read it - here's an effin' link -- http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf -- nothing about Israel beyond a sentence or tow for Wolfowitz' mommie and William Kristol's daddie. It is, however, all about projecting military power to assert hegemony over oil and oil currencies and oil bourses.

2. They know Wolfowitz and Perle and Franklin and Libby -- but they have never heard of Lee Raymond (CEO of ExxonMobil) or David O'Reilly (CEO of TexacoChevron) or Ray Irani (CEO of Oxy) or Chuck Williamson (CEO of Unocal). Remember when they stonewalled Congress?

But it's so much easier for the uninformed to believe that it's all Wolfowitz and Perle and Olmert.

And, when we Progressives countenance racism - even the racism of other Progressives - we give Bush cover and an excuse.

[AlienGirl]

31. Exactly. And many people on the Left fall for it, which is just sad. nt

[Coastie for Truth]

32. Here's an interesting link to Downing Street II

citing


A memo of a two-hour meeting between the two leaders at the White House on January 31 2003 - nearly two months before the invasion - reveals that Mr Bush made it clear the US intended to invade whether or not there was a second UN resolution and even if UN inspectors found no evidence of a banned Iraqi weapons programme.

[fakeshemp]

129. Right on! Well said. n/t

[MakeItSo]

104. Face the reality: Likud is neck deep in the scandals in Washington today

Key architects of the Iraq war have extremely close ties with Likud. Douglas Feith founded his law firm in Israel and is founder of He oversaw the Office of Special Plans at the Pentagon, which is currently under investigation for allegedly misrepresenting the intelligence that was used to justify the attack on Iraq. In 1970, his mentor at the Pentagon, Richard Perle, was recorded in an FBI wiretap discussing classified information with someone in the Israeli embassy. In 1983, after stepping into a Pentagon job in the Reagan administration, Perle came under fire for accepting a $50,000 payment from an Israeli arms manufacturer. Paul Wolfowitz was a charter member of PNAC. He, too, is closely associated with the Office of Special Plans.

These guys are trouble not because they are Jews, or friends of Israel, but because they are radical right-wingers. Likud is trouble not because Likud is Jewish or Israeli, but because Likud is also radically right-wing.

It does Jewish people around the world a disservice to pull punches on bad people and bad organizations just because they happen to be Jewish and/or Israeli. I don't want my family to be associated with these bastards. I don't want to defend these assholes. I'll call a spade a spade, thank you very much.

[Zhade]

134. Great post.

NT!

[adriennui]

147. face it....the saudis

are complicit in the slaughter of 3000 human beings on 9/11/2001. the likud is small potatos when compared to the chimps' arab handlers.

[MakeItSo]

195. I wouldn't start getting into body counts: PNAC's number is way higher

The false intelligence cooked up by Feith and Wolfowitz's "Office of Special Plans" in the Pentagon directly resulted in our unilateral invasion of Iraq, where the death count is way above 100K, not to mention untold crippled and injured, and untold future generations of birth defects and cancer due to the depleted uranium that's been spread across the country like pollen.

In the spirit of a hard-right Israeli loyalist, Feith refers to the Occupied Terrorities by their Hebrew names of Yehuda and Shomron, and is co-founder of a group called "one Jeruslem" that is dedicated to keeping Jerusalem under the total control of Israel.

The guys in charge of the US government are ivy league WASPs. Israel actually WARNED us about 9/11 so it's hard to believe they had anything to do with that. But in the end, PNAC and Likud do deserve special blame for the disasterous war we are engaged in.

[Coastie for Truth]

200. Have You Ever Read "PNAC"?

I don't mean the blogs or the appends on various and sundry chat rooms. I mean the actual document itself? Here is a link: http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf so now go read it.

I will give you the buzz words: "projection of power" "assertion of hegemony" "mineral resources."

That's what PNAC is all about - projection of military power to assert hegemony over mineral resoures (including petroleum brouses, currencies for clearing petroleum purchases, etc.)

I am a (semi-retired) engineer in the alternative, renewable, and green energy industry, a veteran, and I do a lot of reading in serious military history, and political science, and I do a lot of volunteer community and Democratic party work.

[Zhade]

133. I think you're onto something.

NT!

[BeyondGeography]

4. If you've ever heard the "yiddo" chants when Chelsea plays the Spurs

You'd have to agree with their findings.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. For those of us not familiar with basketball...

(I am guessing basketball because of the Spurs; I have never heard of Chelsea's team), what are "yiddo" chants? I am assuming they are not good, but could you give an example? Thanks. (If they are too vile, PM me.)

[LadyAziz]

7. Spurs and Chelsea are soccer teams...

i've never heard about yiddo chants, but we live in a sad, sad world.

[fedsron2us]

11. Yes but Spurs fans wear the name with pride

even when they are not Jewish.

http://www.mehstg.com/faqs.htm

In fact all the major clubs in London including Tottenham's hated local rivals Arsenal have strong connections with the Jewish community. This includes Chelsea which is controlled by Roman Abramovich the billionaire Russian who was raised by a Jewish family and is a big donor to Jewish causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Abramovich

[abex]

8. some christian groups in u.s. also claim to be under

constant attack, too. that's organized human nature, i guess.

[AlienGirl]

13. There is a big difference

The Christian groups that complain of the "war on Christmas" and what-not don't actually have to worry about being beaten or murdered because they are Christian. They don't need to worry that if they are overtly Christian, if they wear anything identifying themselves as Christians, that they will be verbally or physically attacked.

Tucker

[abex]

16. are you're saying england has had anti-semitic murders and beatings

beyond the statistical mean? I hadn't heard about those yet. Could you provide links to the information on an official law enforcement site?

[AlienGirl]

18. Why must it be "beyond the statistical mean" to be a problem?

The article notes that 2005 saw the second-highest number of incidents on record; I'd say that's a problem, wouldn't you?

Tucker

[abex]

19. are you talking about murders and beatings of jews, exclusively? nt

[AlienGirl]

20. Please clarify, what was your original point?

When you compare this report with the Christians in the US who (falsely) claim to be under attack, it makes it sound like you are saying the disturbing rise in anti-semetism is also false and/or exaggerated. Was that your intent?

Tucker

[abex]

23. just looking for links to actual acts of murder and beatings or

at least threats. it was you who brought those up. i can look for links myself or you can provide the ones you used to come up with your information.

[AlienGirl]

24. What was your original point?

[abex]

25. original point was no group has a monopoly on victimhood. links, please!

[AlienGirl]

27. Where did you see a claim to a "monopoly on victimhood"?

Do you believe Christians in the US face as much prejudice and danger as Jews do in Europe?

Tucker

[abex]

28. you should either supply the links or retract the claim

otherwise, we're done.

[abex]

29. can anyone else support aliengirl's claim of anti-semitic murders and

beatings, or at least the threats of such, occuring in the UK with a link to a law enforcement or other impartial site or resource.

[AlienGirl]

30. Do you agree or disagree? Yes or no? Which is it?

I have stated that Jews, worldwide, are more vulnerable to being attacked simply for being Jews than Christians in the US are vulnerable to attack simply for being Christian. Do you agree, or disagree?

Tucker

[abex]

33. what? you don't have a linked source?

Why make the claim in the first place? Looks like shenanigans.

[AlienGirl]

34. Jews worldwide face more prejudice than Christians in the US.

Agree or disagree?

Tucker

[abex]

36. another shift? well, that's different than saying jews in england are

being murdered and beaten by anti-semites, or are being threated with those crimes. It was, in my opinion, a serious gaffe for you to say that without annotation.

[AlienGirl]

37. Agree or disagree?

[AlienGirl]

74. My claim was that Jews have more reason to fear prejudice than Christians

Do you agree or disagree?

Tucker

[abex]

79. okay,now we're done. i don't like your attempts at shucking me.nt

[AlienGirl]

80. Is "shucking" some new slang for "using logic and reason"?

[Finder]

105. Here you go...

http://www.thecst.org.uk/downloads/Incidents_report04.pdf

[abex]

139. you, too, link to the study that has no evidentiary basis

1) the authors of this report cite only anecdotal accounts from anonymous sources, without dates when the so-called incidents occurred, or specific geographical locations where the 'incidents' allegedly took place
2)not once in this study, allegedly concerning anti-semitic 'incidents' in England in 2005, in which a casual reader might deduce it's addressing a fearsome rise in hate crimes against Jews, not once does it refernce a single police report upon which to base it's Alice in Wonderland conclusions.
3) ironically, although this hack job of a study does it's level best to mislead, as do other posters on this thread who, not so oddly, could'nt cite any other study or report to support this one, does manage to conclude that so-called anti-semitic incidents actually occurred less frequently in 2005 than in 2004. And this is the study the op based his dramatic and and severely misleading headline on? WTF!?
4) saying something is so a hundred or more times doesn't make it true. so why do you want be the one to repeat for the one hundredth and one time information so indispute that not one reference, factual or as false as the CST report, can be referenced in support, and subsequently place your own credibility in the dustbin?

[muriel_volestrangler]

140. The police use this for their reports

Can you not understand that? The CST is a trusted organisation. Reports are anonymous because it's not a complete list of every single incident with details, and becasue the victims are at risk of further abuse or attacks.

It's your credibility that's heading for the dustbin. "Alice in Wonderland" my arse. The original headline was exactly what the news item said, as required by LBN rules, and is not in the slightest bit misleading. Anti-semitism is indeed "unacceptably high" - in that it exists, and hundreds of incidents were reported in one year. The Jewish community leaders were right to say that.

[abex]

141. unbelievable assertion alert! got a source for that false statement?

and don't hand me that stupid CST study again.

[muriel_volestrangler]

142. Which statement are you calling 'false'?

[abex]

143. those made by posters pushing the false premise of the op

[muriel_volestrangler]

144. So, you can't actually point to a false statement

You're just making a blanket smear, are you? Why did you say "that false statement" then? You had a specific statement in mind. Which was it?

[abex]

145. self-delete

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

148. You obviously have no answer. Thank you for proving my point.

[abex]

149. replied under #144 but du posted it as a reply to my own post. WTF?

[abex]

152. i think i see why it does that/ so posts don't get all bunched up on the

right hand side of the page.

[muriel_volestrangler]

199. So if you think the OP is pushing a false premise

you think 455 anti-semitic incidents are acceptable then, do you? How disgusting.

[abex]

203. 455 anti-semitic incidents are not acceptable but they, if

they are accurately depicted and reported, and supported by an independent source, are a far cry from the 'murders and beatings' of Jews falsely stated by another poster.

[JudyM]

198. Wow. This is certainly sobering. Thanks for posting. n/t

[crispini]

107. Yes, and it didn't take much googling, either.

I followed the link in the OP

http://www.guardian.co.uk/race/story/0,,1701150,00.html
which refers to "455 anti-semitic race hate incidents throughout the UK in 2005," and I googled that phrase and found another article with more detail.

The CST recorded 455 anti-Semitic incidents, including 82 violent assaults and two of extreme violence.Not all incidents are reported and it is thought the true figure is higher.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article342867.ece

You can download their entire report here:
http://www.thecst.org.uk/index.cfm?content=7&menu=7

I did so and here are some excerpts:

The 82 violent antisemitic assaults is virtually the same as in 2004, when there were 83 violent incidents. This is the second year in a row in which violent attacks on Jewish people have outnumbered incidents of damage to Jewish property.

...(snip)
The two incidents of Extreme Violence in 2005 were:
�� A Jewish religious student in Manchester was stabbed by a man who had chased him, shouting "I knew I could get you, you fucking Jewish bastard".
�� A Jewish man in London was attacked by a gang of 15 youths who smashed a bottle over his head and kicked and punched him to the ground. They then tried to set fire to him using an unidentified liquid.

(snip)

Incidents in the category of Assault in 2005 included:
�� Three assaults on Orthodox Jews in Stamford Hill, London, as part of a series of attacks that began in December 2004. In each case, three men jumped out of a car and attacked visibly Jewish men at random in the street. One of the victims was attacked with a metal bar; another victim was left with a broken nose. An Arab teenager from West London was charged in connection with the attacks
but the trial collapsed because the witness failed to attend court.

�� Four white men drove up to a Jewish religious school in Salford, North Manchester, shouted antisemitic abuse and attacked one of the students with a baseball bat.

�� A Jewish girl was on a train home from school in London when an Asian man pointed at a Star of David necklace she was wearing and then spat in her face, while verbally abusing her.

�� An 11-year-old Jewish boy in North Manchester was attacked by a gang of Asian youths who punched him and called him a "dirty Jew".

�� A Jewish family were walking down a street in Manchester when a group of three white men shouted antisemitic abuse at them and punched the father in the face.

�� A Jewish man was attacked by a black youth and an Asian youth who called him a "fucking Jew" and then
headbutted him several times.

Is that enough for you?

[Colorado Blue]

151. I gave you a link and some ideas where else you can search

including the US State Department. TAU also has excellent reports, year by year, region by region around the globe, that go into more detail and reflect a frightening global trend.

[abex]

160. saying you gave me links? where are they? under your hat? nt

[abex]

163. ah, i found your phony link. see post #161 nt

[Colorado Blue]

165. What do you mean, phony link? That's a highly prejudicial

comment in and of itself, sir.

[abex]

168. self-delete

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

171. Wanna explain with CST is crap?

The routine systematic compilation of reports of antisemitic incidents in the United Kingdom began in 1984, but the system of compiling these was changed in 1990 to ensure consistency and greater accuracy and to bring them into line with international moves to regularize the gathering of such statistics by Jewish communities. In Britain incident reports are gathered from the victims themselves, from press reports and from the police. During 2001 the Community Security Trust (CST), the monitoring body, was accorded third-party reporting status by the police, which allows it to report antisemitic incidents to the police and act as a go-between between them and those victims who are unable or unwilling to report to the police directly. The CST's investigative capacity has also been used by the police on occasions. Given that the system is a non-statutory voluntary one there are bound to be omissions but the CST's figures are accepted as accurate by government and the police. Regular meetings at Scotland Yard have confirmed that the CST's statistical trends by incident type and quantity very closely match those of the police, but the CST's absolute totals are constantly lower than those reported to the Metropolitan Police Service. That the CST under-reports is suggested by the fact that it records the mass distribution of a single leaflet as one incident although there may be hundreds of recipients, whereas police forces may each record the receipt of that item as a separate incident.

source

[abex]

177. been there, done that. read my posts again nt

[Behind the Aegis]

178. and yet...

...the officials of the UK have no problem with it. I think I will stick with them on this issue.

[abex]

182. how about the names and positions of those 'officials' ? links, please!

[Behind the Aegis]

186. Why?

None seem to be good enough for you. So, why don't YOU provide something that discredits the report other than your opinion!

[abex]

188. at this point, in the interest of your own credibility

i'd be willing to consider one cite but you've not provided even that.

[Behind the Aegis]

189. I have provided at least two...you however,...

...have only presented conjecture, opinion, and insults.

[abex]

191. your sources always lead back to the discredited CST study nt

[Behind the Aegis]

193. "discredited" only by you. Not at all convincing. n/t

[AlienGirl]

206. And "discredited" by David Irving--even less convincing!

[abex]

217. noted jewish authors such as Norman Finklestein, Ruth Battina Birn

and Tobias Abse may also have issues with the CST's credibility. Finklestein wrote 'Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History, while Ms Battina Birn cowrote another book with him. Tobias, a leftwing critic (of overwrought claims of rising anti-Jewish sentiment), 'ventured the idea that The Holocaust industry provided “considerable comfort to every holocaust denier, neo-Nazi and anti-semite on the face of the planet'.

[muriel_volestrangler]

229. Ah, now we see your problem - you can't read the Weekly Worker correctly

You're reproducing things from here: http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/609/finkelstein.htm

So, seeing how we are in midst of an anti-semitic “tsunami”, what could be more opportune than Norman Finkelstein’s new book, Beyond chutzpah: on the misuse of anti-semitism and the abuse of history? This is a successor to The Holocaust industry: reflections on the exploitation of Jewish suffering, a work which made him less than popular in some quarters. Thus, one leftwing critic, Tobias Abse, ventured the idea that The Holocaust industry provided “considerable comfort to every holocaust denier, neo-Nazi and anti-semite on the face of the planet” (New Interventions autumn 2000).

Now, if you'd paid attention to that paragraph, rather than doing a quick copy-and-paste, you'd have seen the italics (which I reproduced above) showing that Tobias Abse is critising Finkelstein's book The Holocaust industry, and thinks that the book provides comfort to holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis, and anti-semites. Abse, however, has no problem with the CST.

What has Ruth Bettina Birn said about the CST's credibility? Or, for that matter, Finkelstein?

[Finder]

192. Rob Beckley, Association of Chief Police is cited...

A CST spokesman described the increase as "extremely alarming".

A police spokesman said most of the increase was probably due to better reporting of incidents to the CST.

Rob Beckley, of the Association of Chief Police Officers, said anti-Semitic crimes reported to the police had for some time been significantly higher than those recorded by CST.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4254005.stm

[abex]

194. beckley is assistant chief constable of hertfordshire, uk

and he couldn't or wouldn't cite actual police stats supporting the CST study, although he did concur with the CST report, which means, he too, is relying on a report that doesn't use police reports as a basis for it and his anecdotal conclusions. More about Mr Beckley here http://www.globalrealestate.org/retreat/profile.asp?m=bg05&rcd=28034&ofn=125225&

[abex]

202. there's some actual research being done by the 'diversity directorate

of the metropolitan police service'

http://www.jpr.org.uk/Newsletter/spring_2005.htm

and an excerpt from the JPR newsletter:

'In a unique piece of collaborative research between JPR and the Diversity Directorate of the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS), JPR Civil Society Fellow Dr Paul Iganski has been working with MPS Senior Social Researchers Vicky Kielinger and Susan Paterson to analyse the nature and social context of antisemitic incidents recorded by the Met. This report provides the most comprehensive data analysis available to date'.

A careful reader will note the phrase 'has been working'. Which means a work in progress. Which means independent verification of the CST study has yet to be determined. Be interested if this joint study has released it's findings yet and if comprehensive stats are included, and what sources will be cited in it's conclusions.

The JPR newsletter also contains a graph of anti-semitic incidents 'recorded', as opposed to investigated or prosecuted, by the Metropolitan Police Service and the numbers seem to bear out the claims made by the CST. But, not mentioned, is the total reliance the MET had on information provided solely by the CST. Anyone beginning to see that anti-semitic incidents, in the UK at least, are defined primarily by the CST's sponsoring charity and should, absent any new-found dependence on official police reports, be taken with a grain?

[muriel_volestrangler]

220. Report completed last year

Contents Page

Commander Steve Allen, Head of the Diversity Directorate of the Metropolitan Police said: "The Met works with a range of communities in London. This research will help us strengthen the service that we deliver to victims of hate crimes as it gives us increased understanding of offenders and the crimes they commit. The police need the support and help of the communities we serve and I look forward to continue working closely with representatives from the Jewish Community."
...
This research reflects a close relationship between academic and professional researchers at JPR, the Community Security Trust and the Met.

Press Release on publication

The Met is perfectly happy with the work and accuracy of the JST. Will you now withdraw your allegation that the report is "false and inflammatory and has no place in a serious discussion"? You made that accusation without any evidence whatsoever. Indeed, your entire contribution to this thread has been "I don't believe the CST", with no reasons given, but plenty of false accusations against other posters. Why have you been doing this?

[abex]

221. from the chapter entitled 'The Recording of AntiSemitic Incidents by the

Metropolitan Police Service'

'The APCO Guide to Identifying and Combating Hate Crime states that 'it must be clearly understood that to report or record an incident as racist or homophobic, evidence is not needed. Evidence is not the test'.

[muriel_volestrangler]

230. And?

We're still waiting for you to withdraw your baseless allegations about the CST report.

[Jim Sagle]

226. You ain't done shit.

[Colorado Blue]

164. In another post, a separate post.

But truly, information on this problem is easy to find. Try the US State Department. They have country by country data. Also you should look up the antisemitism information published by Tel Aviv University. UN might also have records. All of this is legitimate and is based on local police reports. What these reports DON'T reflect are the "soft" forms of abuse: verbal harrassment, ugly cartoons, bigoted speech. Those are on the rise and are visible here in the States as well.

Reading through your posts on this thread, I get the impression you don't believe this is truly happening.

It is.

It's a very bad sign. Historically, jew-baiting has presaged troubled times. It's a symptom of serious problems within a society and has often coincided with periods of famine, poverty, war or disease.

This is because Jews, for 2,000 years, have been regarded as scapegoats - the root of all ill in the Christian world, and are apostate in the Muslim world - unbelievers, infidel. In both cases, we are discussing prejudice against a tiny and vulnerable minority.

In Europe, the Muslims are also suffering from bigotry, as are other minority groups. However, the steep increase in antisemitism isn't rooted merely in "differentness" or the color of skin - but in an ancient disease of our culture. It's extremely dangerous, having decimated the Jewish population. It has been estimated that, without persecutions and genocides, Jews might today number about 125 million, instead of 13 million worldwide.

[abex]

172. just saying the CST study is false and inflammatory and has no place

in a serious discussion. It dilutes and causes one to question the validity of truly horrible cases of bigotry that do exist and have the evidence to prove them.

[Colorado Blue]

185. Why are you saying CST study is false and inflammatory?

It is based on POLICE REPORTS.

What's inflammatory is the FACT: the attacks have increased dramatically though they are down a bit in 2005 from 2004.

THAT'S upsetting. Don't blame the messenger. Be upset because people are being hurt. That's what should be making you mad.

Here's the US State Department report.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm

[abex]

187. no mention of police reports in your latest link. why would you say such a

thing, anyway? and why would you think a bush/neocon state dept source would impress me?

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. AlienGirl made no claim requiring a link

You were the one who started talking about "anti-semitic murders and beatings beyond the statistical mean". What does that mean? What is the 'statistical mean' for anti-semitic murders or beatings? Do you the mean for anti-semitic murders over the whole world? How can that be meaningful , when the populations of Jewish people varies so widely between countries? And why would it be relevant? AlienGirl talked about attacks on Jewish people that happened because they are Jewish. These attacks exist - the report documents them (and comes from an organisation that the police trust to report incidents correctly). What other link is needed?

[abex]

75. she made the claim in post #13 that christians don't

have to worry about being beaten and murdered. implicit in that statement is that jews do. can you point to a higher than normal murder or beatings rate at the hands of anti-semites against jews in england?

[AlienGirl]

77. When's the last time you saw someone get insulted for wearing a cross?

Have you seen anyone in the US get insulted or harassed for wearing a necklace with a cross on it?

Tucker

[muriel_volestrangler]

81. Again, there is no such thing

as a normal rate of anti-semitic murder or beatings, so we can't compare the rate in England to it. She said that Christians in the US don't worry about getting murdered or beaten because they're Christian. The article says that Jews in England sometimes are beaten for being Jewish. Why do you insist on another link? It's in the OP.

[abex]

86. there's no such thing as murders and beatings in the op, you mean. nt

[AlienGirl]

88. If you had RTFA, you'd see that "violent assaults" are mentioned

[muriel_volestrangler]

89. "indicators of violent assaults" - which means beatings

knifings, and similar. See post #63 for the link to the detailed report. In 2005 no-one was killed, though 2 assaults were life-threatening.

[Zhade]

135. You're arguing a strawman she never mentioned.

Dishonest.

[Colorado Blue]

150. Yes there's plenty of information on this. The US State

Department has figures and it's easy to find other sources, just google UK anti-semitism.

The 2005 figures just came out, the 2nd worse year in history. 2004 was the worst.

Here's a link:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3209915,00.html

As I mentioned this is backed up by official sources as well. Not included in the reports of criminal attacks are the more subtle forms of abuse - verbal, even in the press. But there are plenty of articles by writers who live in the UK.

[abex]

161. how about official sources instead of a link to 'Jewish Scene Mag'

all the ynet site does is regurgitate the nonsense from the discredited CST study.

[Colorado Blue]

166. Who discredited CST? That's a highly respected an official

source.

I think you have a problem yourself, sir.

[abex]

176. last time. the CST study contains no law enforcement data

for a report that allegedly deals with serious cases of anti-semitism it should have at least some official data to back up it's assertions. It does not. It is therefore discredited.

[Colorado Blue]

180. It is BASED on law enforcement data, which is collected from

around the country.

What's your point? Do you think people are inventing this? WHY?

[Name removed]

183. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[abex]

190. well, my posts are starting to be removed. guess you win nt

[NashVegas]

76. What Are You Trying to Imply?

Because it looks like you're taking the complaints of radical Christian groups and the media that whips them into a frenzy over such fripperies as the "war on Christmas" and equating it with the thousands of very real events that go on each year.

Furthermore, in asking if the instances go beyond the usual statistics, it looks like you're saying that it's okay to have a yearly average. Is that really okay with you?

[AlienGirl]

82. That is exactly what it looks like to me, too

In a few minutes, I will have to go to Shabbat services, and I'll have to stop trying to nail this piece of jello to the wall. *sigh*

Tucker

[abex]

83. read my posts. all my implications are there. without shifts or shucks.

[AlienGirl]

84. Is "shucking" some new slang for "using logic and reason"?

[NashVegas]

85. No, I'm Asking You. Directly

Do you equate the complaints of Christians who were angered about the use of "holiday trees" and "happy holidays" greetings to having a swastica painted on someone's door?

Is a Christian who's upset at not being able to hear the Lord's Prayer on their school PA in the same boat as a Jewish person who's school has been burned to the ground?

[AlienGirl]

87. That would certainly seem to be the case....

[abex]

91. both groups' claims are dubious. without cites to the actual instances

of murder and beatings that another poster has alluded to, or cites to police reports of the actual existance of murderous or bodily harm threats, or any other police reported crimes against jews, all the reader of the op has to go on is the word of the Lord Rabbi, quoted in the piece, and a study he controlled.

[AlienGirl]

92. Why do you disbelieve the study?

[NashVegas]

93. I Don't Care What the Other Poster Referred To

I'm talking about your statement, which seemed to be implying that the claims are being exaggerated on a similar level to John Gibson's statements on Fox news this past autumn.

Is that what you believe?

Adding on edit:

If there is a credibility issue to be had, it should be had with the Guardian for not delving further into the matter.

If you'd take your crash helmet off long enough to do a Google search, you might find actually UK (and elsewhere) police statistics that would seem to match up with the numbers cited in the artitcle.

[abex]

95. don't ask me to make your case for you. either one has impartial

sources to cite, or one doesn't. And other than an inhouse study mentioned in the op, nobody has yet to come up with a link to support either the study or the other poster's statements. i've now asked for indepedent confirmation of these horrible claims many times and all i receive back are blanks. what's next?

[AlienGirl]

111. "In-house studies" are apparently unreliable?

I assume the ADL's studies also would not pass your standard of "impartiality." Tell me, under your standard, can one only "impartially" report an offense if one is not the victim of it? ...Do you apply the same standard to reports of gay-bashing?

Tucker

[NashVegas]

215. For the Last Time - I Don't Care What the Other Poster Has Written

You are the one who started this subthread with your statement seemingly equating politically/financially-driven claims of persecution against Christians to actions such as synagog burnings.

By your refusal to clarify your position, I and everyone else reading this can only assume that you do equate the two, and possibly believe we should all dismiss the claims of anti-semitism noted in the Guardian article.

[UncleSepp]

94. The studies over the years do have the citations.

They even have photographs.

[abex]

97. source or link, please? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

98. Here is the report!!!

http://www.thecst.org.uk/docs/Incidents%5FReport%5F05.pdf

[abex]

102. funny it doesn't mention murders or cite police reports.

What it seems to be is a collection of anecdotal accounts received by the organization without citing the names of the victims, the suspects or better than general descriptions of where the incidents occured. Correct me if I'm wrong. In fact, the routine use in this report of the term incident, where one might expect the word crime or violation to be used in a study that makes such potent charges, tells me that the info contained in it is flawed. I seem to remember reading the executive summary of the 2004 report and coming away with similar doubts. The good news is the study concludes there were in fact fewer 'incidents' in '05 than in '04.

[Behind the Aegis]

109. then contact the organization.

[abex]

116. it was your doc, your misleading post, you handle it nt

[AlienGirl]

117. There is nothing misleading about that document. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

124. It is your problem, not mine.

[muriel_volestrangler]

131. If you bothered to read posts and links

you'd have seen this at the start of the Community Security Trust report:

The CST received
charitable status in 1994 and is recognised
by Government and Police as a model of a
minority community security organisation.
...
An essential part of the CST's work
involves representing the Jewish
community to police, legislative and policymaking
bodies and providing people inside
and outside the Jewish community with
information to combat antisemitism.
...
In 2001 the CST was
accorded third-party reporting status by the
Police, which allows us to report antisemitic
incidents to the Police and to act as a
go-between for victims who are unable
or unwilling to report to the Police directly.
The CST works closely with Police services
and Community Safety Units in monitoring
and investigating antisemitic incidents.

The British police trust the CST to collect reports of anti-semitic incidents. There is nothing misleading about the OP. Why has your participation in the thread been purely to accuse other DUers of misleading people? You don't seem to address the issues, or read the links that people give - you just acrry on accusing.

[Behind the Aegis]

175. seems only YOU have an issue with CST

The routine systematic compilation of reports of antisemitic incidents in the United Kingdom began in 1984, but the system of compiling these was changed in 1990 to ensure consistency and greater accuracy and to bring them into line with international moves to regularize the gathering of such statistics by Jewish communities. In Britain incident reports are gathered from the victims themselves, from press reports and from the police. During 2001 the Community Security Trust (CST), the monitoring body, was accorded third-party reporting status by the police, which allows it to report antisemitic incidents to the police and act as a go-between between them and those victims who are unable or unwilling to report to the police directly. The CST's investigative capacity has also been used by the police on occasions. Given that the system is a non-statutory voluntary one there are bound to be omissions but the CST's figures are accepted as accurate by government and the police. Regular meetings at Scotland Yard have confirmed that the CST's statistical trends by incident type and quantity very closely match those of the police, but the CST's absolute totals are constantly lower than those reported to the Metropolitan Police Service. That the CST under-reports is suggested by the fact that it records the mass distribution of a single leaflet as one incident although there may be hundreds of recipients, whereas police forces may each record the receipt of that item as a separate incident.

source

[abex]

179. so be it nt

[Behind the Aegis]

181. indeed. n/t

[UncleSepp]

153. www.google.com n/t

[adriennui]

214. abex, what's your story.

i know you have one, no?

[bleedingheart]

10. I am seeing a rise in anti-semitic commentary where I live

it is frightening....

[Colorado Blue]

154. My four nieces report this too and synagogues in my 'hood

have been vandalized and burned.

[cantstandbush]

14. Racism in America and the uk is also unacceptably high. Agree? n/t

[AlienGirl]

15. Of course, and they are all of a piece

Racism, anti-semitism, homophobia, xenophobia...all the forms of bigotry.

Tucker

[Psephos]

17. So just what level of anti-Semitism *is* acceptable? n/t

[Coastie for Truth]

26. About the same level as racism against African Americans,

GLBT, Asian Americans, Women, Diabled, Aged -- ABSOLUTELY NONE WHATSOVER

That is the Progressive Creed I was raised with - from early childhood on!

Especially if it relates to voting, education, access to education, employment, housing, safety on the streets.

[Psephos]

78. Amen! n/t

[FlemingsGhost]

21. Apparently, they can't help themselves:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2084697&mesg_id=2084697

:eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Harry's Nazi gaffe linked to 10 attacks on Jews

Prince Harry's choice of a Nazi uniform for a fancy dress party in January last year was directly linked to 10 anti-Semitic attacks, a report said yesterday.

The Community Security Trust, which advises the Jewish community on safety, said that comments by Ken Livingstone, the mayor of London, the following month had provoked similar incidents.

There were 455 anti-Semitic incidents in Britain in 2005, ranging from serious attacks to offensive graffiti, the trust's annual report said. That was the second highest figure on record after 2004 and follows last month's warning by the Chief Rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sacks, that a "tsunami of anti-Semitism" was sweeping Europe. Incidents included 82 violent assaults and two of extreme violence. A Jewish religious student was stabbed in Manchester and 15 youths tried to set a Jewish man on fire in London.

The report said that in 10 anti-Semitic incidents the perpetrators referred directly to Prince Harry. The prince later apologised for the controversy he had caused. Mr Livingstone's comments, in which he likened a Jewish reporter to a concentration camp guard, had acted as a trigger for 11 incidents.

last paragraph

[Nickster]

39. People actually study this stuff? Yeah, what Prince Harry did was stupid,

but it most certainly didn't "trigger" hate crimes. Give me a break, idiots are idiots, they are avoiding responsibility for their actions by blaming it on some public figure.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. and yet...

...from the article: "The report said that in 10 anti-Semitic incidents the perpetrators referred directly to Prince Harry."

[Nickster]

44. I say they are looking for an easy way to excuse themselves from

taking responsibility for their hate crimes. Why not blame a television show, or a book, or maybe it was a Satanic verse backmasked on a music CD. C'mon.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. I agree.

However, how many times have we heard the same things in the States? The problem is that the individuals that commit these crimes look for validation. it is not saying Harry's gaffe caused or even inspired attacks, the article is saying that the perps used the prince's actions as validation.

[Nickster]

47. Very fine line you're drawing there. I believe the article is trying to

draw a cause and effect relationship. You don't believe the criminals would use this as their defense? Prince Harry made me do it? Regardless, what difference does it make if they claim it's the cause or it's validation? It's bull on either account.

[alarcojon]

55. I agree the article is implying a cause and effect

which I disagree with. But I strongly disagree with you that anti-Semites and bigots of all stripes don't find validation in assinine stunts like Harry's.

[PBass]

60. It's not a "fine line"

It's a "blunt line" to for you to say "these attackers are just trying to blame it on Harry".

I totally agree with the comments that people used Harry's idiotic stunt, as a type of subliminal validation for their hate.

People DO identify with celebrities and public figures, and in the UK the Royal Family is revered. Look, when Oprah says "I think I've lost weight" hundreds of women viewers decide it's time for them to "start working out"... same kinda thing. Would these women even understand they were working out because of Oprah? Not necessarily...

I do believe when a "prince" does something like wear a Nazi uniform in public, it is loathesome and (yes) harmful.

[Behind the Aegis]

96. Well, I was going to respond...but the two above posters...

...pretty much cover what I was going to say.

[Nickster]

100. If I saw a violent video game

and then go out and commit a violent crime and say, well I saw it in a game, does that validate my violence?

What about if I saw it in a prime time tv show? Maybe I saw a hate crime on CSI or something. Does that validate what I did?

Or is it just something I saw covered in the news that I just decide to use to excuse my behavior?

There's no connection between what these idiots did and what they saw Harry do. It's just an easy excuse, "it wasn't my fault, I had bad role models in my Royal Family". These people never had contact with Harry other than what they saw in the media. The media didn't validate what he did, they were all shocked by it and embarrassed the royals over it. Remember, he had to apologize for it as well.

[Behind the Aegis]

110. You have completely missed the point.

I am not saying, nor is the article, that it was a validation for the actions, except in the minds of the perps. What you are doing is acting as if what people see have no influence on the actions of others. A child sees his parent lie, the child then lies to another person. However, the child feels validated by his actions because his mom/dad did it. It doesn't excuse the fact that he lied.

I doubt they were saying, "it wasn't my fault, I had bad role models in my Royal Family." More likely they were saying, "I acted out against the filthy Jews. Even Prince Harry knows to mock them by pretending to be Hitler." Though I doubt they'd be that articulate or able to understand the psychology behind their own actions. You are confusing "excusing" and "validating.' They are not one in the same.

[Colorado Blue]

156. Yes - but monkey see monkey do. Harry is a prince, an

admired figure in England, and people tend to emulate people like that.

[brentspeak]

54. The article doesn't specify what they meant by that

Prince Harry is responsible for what he does, not for what anybody else does.

[Nickster]

101. Ding,Ding,Ding. Thank you!

[Behind the Aegis]

125. You seemed to have missed the point too.

Prince Harry is responsible for dressing up like a Nazi. True.

The perps are responsible for their anti-Semitic acts. True.

The perps acted because of Harry's stunt. Unknown.

The perps felt 'validated' in their actions because of Harry's stunt. In ten cases, it seems to be true.

Prince Harry is responsible for the anti-Semitic attacks. False.

To pretend that simple minds are not influenced by "stars and celebrities," among other things...Dangerous.

[dogday]

197. How does the apology of Prince Harry

play into all this, since his actions seem to be directly or indirectly responsible?

[1620rock]

42. OMG I dressed up as the grim-reaper last Halloween......

...and thousands have died since October 31st. :eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

45. I think you missed the point of the article. n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

41. Sure, and Janet jackson's boob led to widespread nudity...

...a guy can hope, can't he? }(

[Nickster]

43. If only......LoL

[LynnTheDem]

48. LOL!

Men!

[savemefromdumbya]

49. I don't think it caused it

this is on the rise unfortunately regardless of Prince Harry

[LiviaOlivia]

50. I always wished I was a fly on the wall

when Dad and Grandma had a "talk" with Harry.

[daleo]

51. Here is an example of the Livingstone claim, from the report

"A Jewish MP received a letter that began by defending Ken Livingstone for his comments comparing the Jewish Evening Standard journalist Oliver Finegold to a Nazi concentration camp guard. The writer then denied there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and continued <anti-semitic remark here>. This was one of eleven antisemitic incidents that were triggered by the news story of Ken Livingstone's comments to Oliver Finegold".

The Prince Harry example is similar.

This seems like guilt by association, especially in the Livingstone case. He shouldn't be held responsible for the comments of an anti-Semitic crank in a letter or email.

The Telegraph's description leads one to assume that physical assaults were "triggered" by Livingstone and the Prince, not stupid letters.

The report can be read by googling The Community Security Trust.

[LostinVA]

52. I was one who ripped Harry apart on DU because of this

It was disgraceful. BUT. His wearing the Nazi uniform had nothing to do with any hate crimes in the UK. It's just their excuse. If it wasn't Harry, it would have been someone or something else. There si no cause and effect here.

[MakeItSo]

53. What about Ariel Sharon dressing up as Ariel Sharon?

Did that piss anyone off?

[LostinVA]

67. What?

[FlemingsGhost]

56. I dressed as a woman once. I wonder how many rapes resulted.

Or maybe I incited a "tsunami of masturbation."

Hey ... it coulda happened. I was rather fetching dressed as a woman.

[Jim Sagle]

57. More likely a century-long wave of abstinence.

;-)

[FlemingsGhost]

59. LOL ! ... Touché

Well played, Jim.

:hi:

[rayofreason]

90. Fetching, wretching...

...neither has much to do with rape.

And a tsunami of masturbation? That's quite a prostate, I must say!

Sorry - not much sleep and I couldn't resist some flippancy.

[Colorado Blue]

155. Fine. You think this is funny? Be glad you aren't Jewish, or

have young Jewish people in your family, whose future concerns you.

There are 13 million Jews IN THE WORLD.

[Nihil]

58. Oh come on!

> The report said that in 10 anti-Semitic incidents the perpetrators
> referred directly to Prince Harry.
> ...
> Mr Livingstone's comments, in which he likened a Jewish reporter to
> a concentration camp guard, had acted as a trigger for 11 incidents.

This is just standard right wing (Daily Telegraph) bullshit and you
should be ashamed of yourself for falling for their bait.

The Telegraph doesn't like anyone who can think for themselves (rather
than just blindly swallowing the crap they publish) and certainly doesn't
like left wing politicians daring to call the bluff of paparazzi wankers.

The Royal Family have their faults (especially the outlying members) but
Prince Harry has got more integrity than you would find in the entire
Senate and Congress combined.

Please save your "anti-semitic" cries for a more worthy cause.

[alarcojon]

61. People with integrity don't wear Nazi uniforms

as any form of joke.

Do they?

[foo_bar]

62. does Mel Brooks count?

[alarcojon]

64. I don't know the context where Mel Brooks wore such an outfit

but I'm going to operate under the assumption that he a) is Jewish and b) was clearly making fun of Nazis. If this is not the case, he's an asswipe as well. Though, I may note, a less influential one.

[foo_bar]

66. it was kind of a Peter Sellers role

[Colorado Blue]

167. No - he made a hilarious movie making fun of Nazis and yes

he is Jewish.

[Colorado Blue]

157. This is particularly so considered the history of certain

WWII era British aristocrats.

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. See post #51 - these were verbal or written abuse mentioning

Harry or Livingstone. They are anti-semitic incidents; here's the 16 page PDF report. It doesn't mean that either person turned someone into an anti-semite; I would say they can't prove they 'triggered' the abuse, but it's possible that those who received the abuse might not have, if they hadn't been in the news.

[Poll_Blind]

65. Last Halloween a guy got on my downtown bus wearing a Hitler costume

He was probably about 16-18. He was really enjoying the revulsion that is was causing among the passengers and thankfully, he sat about two seats in front of me which oriented him in a way that he could see the back of the bus if he looked left.

I could only stand it for about 30 seconds.

"Sir, three of my girlfriend's grandparents were executed by the man you are wearing the costume of." I said.

He was already prepared- he was clearly doing it to offend as many people as possible and he thought he had his lines down: "Oh, lighten up it's just a costume! Don't you believe in freedom of speech."

"Yes, yes I do. Which is why I'm telling you what a scummy thing you must be to find hero worship in that sort of mindless filth."

The bus driver told me to watch my language- he was underage and the bus driver just wanted to get his ass off the bus. I didn't have to say anything more. I stared at him the whole time trying to singe his hair, at least, with hate. He made the mistake of looking back once and saw me staring at him. Didn't do it again. Didn't look back when he got off the bus and was sure to keep his head down when he was walking past as the bus took off again. I made sure to glare at his fucking stupid ass until I couldn't see him anymore.

But I don't recall any of us on the bus committing hate crimes because of it. An older black lady smiled at me, but I'm pretty sure it was just for making the Hitler-youth feel uncomfortable in the extreme.

PB

[alarcojon]

68. Good on you

Sounds like you handled it well. I think I would have had to applaud had I been there.

I think more kids than we would like to admit use the Hitler imagery in just this way - to shock people. If I were a teenager and wanted to shock my parents, I couldn't think of a better way.

[Poll_Blind]

69. Thank you! Anyone would have done it- it's just SO repulsive a figure...

...to emulate that it just begs for some sort of smack-down or at least a response.

This article's implications that a snap of Harry in a nazi uniform caused hate crimes is a pathetic joke, though. Every scumbag who commits a hate crime like those mentioned is by definition spineless and stupid. I imagine only the spineless and stupid would resort to the "Prince Harry did it!" defense.

I'm surprised to see at least one poster in this thread trying to keep the faulty premise alive- though what purpose the idea serves one can only guess at.

Anyway, thanks!

PB

[alarcojon]

70. Give yourself a little more credit

Did anyone else on the bus confront our little wannabe Nazi youth?

I don't think "anyone" would have done it.

[FlemingsGhost]

71. "Hero worship."

You got that from a young man's Halloween costume?

"I stared at him the whole time trying to singe his hair, at least, with hate."

From your own words, the only hatred known for sure, was coming from you.

[Poll_Blind]

72. Are you stating wearing a Hitler uniform does not mean HATE?

Just wondering... Oh and you're right I was disgusted an angry at him.

Maybe he wore the Hitler outfit to indicate something else? Ok, I'll bite...what???

PB

[FlemingsGhost]

73. According to your logic, Harry is a hate-filled Hitler worshipper.

Furthermore. anyone dressing as a devil...

Young men and women often make regrettable errors in judgment. Doesn't give you the right to levy your own judgment without engaging the person beyond giving them in earful on a public bus.

[alarcojon]

106. Big difference between Hitler and a devil

A devil has impish connotations of "naughtiness." Hell, I've seen devil costumes with a push-up bra, fishnet stockings, and, of course, a little trident. Hitler, on the other hand, has no such banal connotations.

Kids (or, for that matter, princes) who make regrettable errors involving dressing as Hitler or a Nazi deserve a solid dressing down. Seeing that hurts many people very deeply. And anyone who chooses that way to express themselves likely shows a deep ahistoricity together with a desire to shock.

As an analogy, if some white teenager got on a bus dressed in blackface, I hope I'd have the spine to challenge their judgment.

[fakeshemp]

132. Well done sir!

[Behind the Aegis]

99. Here is the...

...Community Security Trust report.

[abex]

103. without law enforcement data, study's credibility is in doubt nt

[Behind the Aegis]

108. Then, contact them.

[abex]

112. hold it, you can't dissavow it that easy. it was your only doc

in a post shown to be severely misleading. you fucking go contact them, if setting the record straight matters to you, and tell them the trouble you got into for posting their crap.

[AlienGirl]

113. "Indicators of violent assaults." In other words--BEATINGS.

What standard of evidence, O Impartial One, would convince you that anti-semitism does exist?

Tucker

[abex]

114. you ought to be ashamed nt

[AlienGirl]

115. Of what? Do tell.

[abex]

118. come now, the bait usually comes before the switch

[AlienGirl]

119. I'm waiting.....what should I be ashamed of?

[abex]

121. well, i'm not waiting another minute for you. signing off this madness nt

[AlienGirl]

122. I accept your forfeiture of this debate.

[abex]

196. in your dreams

[AlienGirl]

205. So, is Irving your source on why you say the report's "discredited"?

[abex]

207. save your bait for fishing nt

[AlienGirl]

210. I'll take that as a yes.

[abex]

213. spin it any way that suits you nt

[AlienGirl]

216. You still haven't answered, is the IHR your source?

[abex]

218. ask a rational question and i'll try to respond nt

[AlienGirl]

219. Jews worldwide face more prejudice than Christians in the US--yes, or no?

[abex]

223. i simply don't know. with 'evidence' like the CST's dominating the issue

where does one turn for accurate assessments?

[AlienGirl]

228. When's the last time you saw someone get insulted for wearing a cross?

[AlienGirl]

120. you ought to be painted purple nt

(makes about as much sense :eyes: )

[Behind the Aegis]

123. I am not in trouble.

You asked for a source, I gave you a source. There is nothing wrong with said source, except that you don't like it. So, find your own source.

[UncleSepp]

159. Well, it appears that abex and David Irving agree...

It seems that Irving doesn't trust the source of this study, either. I have a pretty good idea what motivates Irving, but abex I'm still not so sure about.

[AlienGirl]

204. Interesting, I wonder if Irving is abex's source?

[abex]

225. stalinist tactics, to boot

[AlienGirl]

227. Am I a "Bolshevic" now?

[Behind the Aegis]

173. .

The routine systematic compilation of reports of antisemitic incidents in the United Kingdom began in 1984, but the system of compiling these was changed in 1990 to ensure consistency and greater accuracy and to bring them into line with international moves to regularize the gathering of such statistics by Jewish communities. In Britain incident reports are gathered from the victims themselves, from press reports and from the police. During 2001 the Community Security Trust (CST), the monitoring body, was accorded third-party reporting status by the police, which allows it to report antisemitic incidents to the police and act as a go-between between them and those victims who are unable or unwilling to report to the police directly. The CST's investigative capacity has also been used by the police on occasions. Given that the system is a non-statutory voluntary one there are bound to be omissions but the CST's figures are accepted as accurate by government and the police. Regular meetings at Scotland Yard have confirmed that the CST's statistical trends by incident type and quantity very closely match those of the police, but the CST's absolute totals are constantly lower than those reported to the Metropolitan Police Service. That the CST under-reports is suggested by the fact that it records the mass distribution of a single leaflet as one incident although there may be hundreds of recipients, whereas police forces may each record the receipt of that item as a separate incident.

source

[Behind the Aegis]

174. no doubt in the minds of the UK officials.

The routine systematic compilation of reports of antisemitic incidents in the United Kingdom began in 1984, but the system of compiling these was changed in 1990 to ensure consistency and greater accuracy and to bring them into line with international moves to regularize the gathering of such statistics by Jewish communities. In Britain incident reports are gathered from the victims themselves, from press reports and from the police. During 2001 the Community Security Trust (CST), the monitoring body, was accorded third-party reporting status by the police, which allows it to report antisemitic incidents to the police and act as a go-between between them and those victims who are unable or unwilling to report to the police directly. The CST's investigative capacity has also been used by the police on occasions. Given that the system is a non-statutory voluntary one there are bound to be omissions but the CST's figures are accepted as accurate by government and the police. Regular meetings at Scotland Yard have confirmed that the CST's statistical trends by incident type and quantity very closely match those of the police, but the CST's absolute totals are constantly lower than those reported to the Metropolitan Police Service. That the CST under-reports is suggested by the fact that it records the mass distribution of a single leaflet as one incident although there may be hundreds of recipients, whereas police forces may each record the receipt of that item as a separate incident.

source

[JudyM]

211. Exactly how much evidence is necessary for people to grow concerned?

Even if, for the sake of argument, those numbers were not accurate, but there was a purely anecdotal increase in violence, why wouldn't that warrant any concern on your part? They didn't have any perfect statistical studies in Poland and Germany before we entered WWII yet the FACT is that millions of people were being slaughtered and others ignored or discounted the anecdotal "evidence."

[rman]

126. I wonder if it is much worse then anti-muslimism

A sizable part of the UK population does support "the war on terror", and those people don't exactly like muslims. Meanwhile the UK is not engaged in a war on Israel or anything like that.

[Behind the Aegis]

128. Islamaphobia.

It is also a problem in the UK and world-wide. I would have to search my files, but there was a report not long ago from the UK discussing the problem of violence against Muslims (Islamaphobia) and violence against Arabs (anti-Arab (no fancy name)).

[rfkrfk]

127. who decides how much is acceptable?

one person, or a group?

majority vote, or supermajority needed?

[Benbow]

136. I think the level of violence against black and Asians in the UK is

likewise unacceptably high. The problem I have with this report from "Jewish community leaders" is that we are not seeing it in context of race hate incidents against other sub-groups. If I were a betting woman, I'd bet that there are far more anti-black incidents throughout the UK.

I live in the UK. I have heard Jewish leaders on the radio claiming that anti-semitism is "unacceptably" high, as if this were more important than the fact that anti-black, anti-Asian behaviour is also "unacceptably" high. I can name three innocent black teenagers attacked and killed by white youths in recent times; I am not saying that there is no anti-semitism - that would be silly - but I have not heard anything similar about Jewish teenagers being attacked and killed.

The interests of Jews are, it is good to know, are protected by there being Jews to advocate for them in "high places" - in government office and in corporations. The interests of black and Asians are not protected in the same way at all.

[ikojo]

138. Ashkenazic Jews have an advantage not available to

those Brits of Pakistani, Indian or African descent...they are seen as white so they have white skin privilege just as in the US. No one knows someone is Jewish unless one dresses in an obviously Jewish manner (kippah, orthodox style black coat, white shirt, beard, payess etc) or unless one announces it.

People who are not white are far more easily identifiable and experience more discrimination as a result.

[Colorado Blue]

169. Askenazi Jews have an advantage? Yeah. 2/3 of their

population was exterminated in the Holocaust.

Some advantage.

Jew hatred is a far older and deeper pathology than run of the mill racism. It's rooted in our culture and it's both completely irrational and extremely dangerous.

That said we should be working against ALL forms of bigotry and stereotyping. If the Holocaust can stand as a lesson to humanity - let it be so.

But in fact, millions of people have died in the past few years alone - 2,000,000 just in the Sudan, nearly 1,000,000 in Rwanda - countless people have died in Asia, in Middle Eastern wars.

It's appalling. And who speaks?

[Behind the Aegis]

162. What a bizarre post.

Because the Jews aren't talking about discrimination against others, it somehow discredits their claims? I have heard a number of Black speakers in this country talk about the problems with racism in the US,and never mention any other group. I don't really expect them too. If it were a conference on bigotry or discrimination, then I would expect many to talk about different forms, but chances are they (the reports) would come from members of the affected group and only speak about the affected group.

Your last sentence is creepy.

[Benbow]

184. Not at all

Last sentence is simply a statement of fact.

[abex]

212. i missed this post initially, you make good points

And why should the CST concern itself with anti acts against other groups? Do we really want to know?

[dubya_dubya_III]

137. Thousand little pieces

While much is made of embellishments and omissions by the author of that book in his memoirs, no greater liar ever achieved such prominence as did the fascist anti-semite Winston Churchill.

Prior to World War II Churchill was the greatest and fondest of admirers of Benito Mussolini, spending many summer vacations with the like-minded Christian Fascist tyrant and writing pro-fascist articles saluting the movements. British Tory Conservatives and their Italian and German Christian conservative moments had similar Brown and Black shirt movements for youth.

After the war, Churchill retreated to an elite WASP racist club in Miami, the Shore Club, which excluded both Jews and non whites. That club retained that policy until a dear friend of mine named Sally (DAR) finally had to fight them tooth and nail in the late 80's to allow her dear card playing friend, Urna, a Jewess to finally be the first enter that 'august' private club.

When America surrendered to Imperial religious tyranny, unconstitutionally adopting the mechanisms of Imperial Anglican(Episcopal) tyranny - (a CIA Mafia and permanent Military Establishment) to join in the embargo the tyranny of Imperial Workers Fascism in Russia, it changed it's own character from that of a truly secular Republic of Liberty, into a covert Imperial Neo-Christian Fascist nation every bit as corrupted by conservative religious fascism as the Lutheran and Shinto enemies our forefathers struggled to defeat in WWII.

In fact creating a 'homeland' exclusively for Jews in Palestine was merely another example of the hideous and unholy marriage of religion to politics, with tragic repercussions the world is still confounded by 60 years later.

[Colorado Blue]

158. What?

The mind boggles.

Winston Churchill may have had his flaws but he was a tremendous leader during a very dark time. He was also one of the few Brits who really did stand up for the Jewish people, who were, as you'll recall, being exterminated.

The creation of Israel may strike you as unfortunate. That's too damn bad.

[dogday]

201. I have read every single one of these posts and it

never ceases to amaze me how one group of people want to say they are the most oppressed. I have heard several different posts comparing the treatment of black to that of Jews.

Now for everyone who is of a different nationality or background, if you want respect for your people, give it to other groups of people, stop trying to make it like yours is the worst, your suffering hurts more than others that suffer. This is simply not true. People suffer alike and suffering is not bias, it will pick on anyone....

I believe that racism exist in all shapes, forms, and fashion. It just seems extreme for one group who does not want discrimination to discriminate against others.

When everyone begins to understand it is just all of us, human beings, not Jews, not Blacks, and in my case not Cherokee Indian.

[JudyM]

208. I didn't notice anyone claiming to be 'the most oppressed."

One poster, in particular, heatedly and energetically challenged whether the specific bigoted acts actually took place; another poster argued that antisemitism isn't the only bigotry out there. IMO, both of these miss the point of the real threat of anti-semitism. Now, if you are implying that the fact that these figures have been compiled in the first place, and that some DUers who care about this violence are concerned, means that these DUers think Jews are 'the most oppressed' you are misunderstanding the concern. The concern is about anti-semitism. The post was about anti-semitism! No one is claiming Jews are 'the most oppressed.'

Consider this: why does the fact that the reported violence was directed against Jews cause any DUers to imply that the report is not worthy of concern? If the report was against Cherokee Indians, do you think this reactionary series of responses would have ensued? Harldly, and I think this revels something quite troubling. That is not to say that there is no bigotry against Cherokee Indians. It is only to say that on DU we would all likely jump to decry the violence, instead of posting disparaging aspersions about the study - or its importance.

:eyes:

[dogday]

224. You must of not read what I wrote

I never said the Jews said they were the most oppressed. Not once.. Please don't put words in my mouth. I am saying we all suffer the same, and any type of persecution is wrong toward anybody. That simple.....

[Name removed]

235. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

238. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[abex]

209. some sanity at last. other than my own, of course nt

[AlienGirl]

222. Jews worldwide face more prejudice than Christians in the US--yes, or no?

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JudyM]

236. I'm quoting you directly:

1. "... it never ceases to amaze me how one group of people want to say they are the most oppressed."

2. "... stop trying to make it like yours is the worst..."

Since you were responding to the posts in this thread, I assumed you were implying that someone posted a comment suggesting that some group was claiming to be the most oppressed.

Tell me then, what did you mean by this?: "... if you want respect for your people, give it to other groups of people, stop trying to make it like yours is the worst." This doesn't sound like you're simply saying that persecution against anyone is wrong, sorry, friend. Sounds like you're implying someone is trying to make it seem like their oppression is the worst. And that is what I am taking issue with. You may not have said it outright, but that seems like a crystal clear implication.

[dogday]

239. You are making the implication

I never said anything about any group of people and was talking in general, that is why the language is vague to you I guess. You can take it any way you want to and apparently you want to make an issue of it, that is your right. But your response is the example of what I am saying. Trying to spread a peaceful message and still getting persecuted for it...

[JudyM]

241. There's a difference between having your statements challenged and

being persecuted. It was a logical inference, I thought, that your statements were referring to this post and so I took issue with them. If they were general commentary that is fine, though I am still curious what group you were talking about who claims to be the most oppressed. Your message that we should all try to live in peace is respected.

[abex]

231. time for me to let go of this bone

It's possible that I'm disregarding the findings of the organization responsible for the study too hastily, but without actual crime stats to back their findings up, what else can I do at this point? I've personally looked for links to give some credibility to the posters who argue the CST study is last word on the current state of anti-Semitism, but even then I kept running up against provisos like, 'evidence not needed to record a hate crime' and the fact that all links provided by them return like barnbound horses to what I've determined to be an extremely flawed study comprised mainly of 'inhouse' complaints or complaints that skip the usual reporting proceedures to the police and proceed directly into the archives of the disputed report's sponsoring charity.

So, I move on to more productive debates and hope one and all will continue to do the same. abex

edited to add: I've been directly critical of only two elements in this entire thread; aliengirl's implicit assertion that British Jews are in imminent danger of being murdered and beaten, for which she offered no supportable documentation, and the op's inclusion of a report on crime against Jews by a private Jewish charity, a report that, oddly enough, contained no references to actual police crime reports. Take it for whatever it's worth.

[AlienGirl]

233. I accept your forfeiture of this debate. Again.

[Chi-Town Exile]

234. Who cares what the stats are?

Will you be happy when ALL Jews are dead?

What is the purpose of implying that Hate crimes aren't happening?

Is it the same purpose as saying the Holocaust never happened?

Aren't you posting on the wrong message board, is the white supremacist board down for maintenance today?

[muriel_volestrangler]

237. If you knew anything about race crimes in the UK

you'd know that what the ACPO manual says is correct - because minorities got very pissed off with the police saying it was the police's judgement whether a crime was race or homophobic-related or not - since the police has a problem with institutional racism. So the police were told to change how it was determined if a crime was race related.

I note you have mischaracterised the manual, however - it says

It must be clearly understood that to report or record an incident as racist or homophobic, evidence is not needed. Evidence is not the test. Perception on the part of anyone is all that is required. These aspects will then be recorded and investigated in addition to any (other) criminal offences which are being investigated.

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/website_copy_race_hate_crime_manual_v3.doc

That is about the perception of the crime as being hate related. It's not about whether a crime has occurred.

You have, in no way whatsoever, determined the CST report to be "an extremely flawed study" - you have ignored all the evidence shown to you that the CST is highly regarded by the British police, is suggested by them as people to report anti-semitic incidents to, and works closely with the police on each bodies' statistics. You have, instead just proclaimed that it is false, without any justification at all.

I cannot forsee any debate you have being productive. All you have done here is insult other DUers.

[JudyM]

240. Touche. Good wrap-up. n/t

[jefferson_dem]

242. Locking.

This thread has degraded into counter-productive flaming.