Talk of a draft grows despite denials by White House

[Newsjock]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/147483_draft08.html

Saturday, November 8, 2003

Talk of a draft grows despite denials by White House
By CHARLES POPE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT

WASHINGTON -- The United States' uneven record in Iraq has kindled a small but persistent push to reinstitute the military draft, a politically charged idea that hasn't been seriously considered since the end of the Vietnam War.

Yet despite denials from the White House that a draft is under consideration, and despite the obvious political fallout of such a move during an election campaign, talk of a draft has heated up in recent days.

Asked this week if the president is considering reinstituting the draft, press secretary Scott McClellan gave a quick and emphatic answer. "No," he said, moving to the next question.

But military observers and some members of Congress say that the notion of a possible military draft is gaining traction, in part because of questions from Democrats in Congress about the conduct of the Iraqi reconstruction, from retired military officers who are worried that the force is too small to accomplish such a big and difficult job -- and because of the administration itself.

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[truthisfreedom]

1. someone on DU was talking about how the selective service is hiring

people.

[Hieronymus]

3. Bernie Ward was

talkng about it on his show.
The White House is getting it all set up and will institute it if and when he is sworn in in 2005. Needless to say, it won't be talked about before the election.:nuke:

[burythehatchet]

34. You better believe it will be talked about - right here and many other

boards

[Trek234]

35. Oh yes it will

With idiots like one particular Dem in NY the repubs will find a way to say the Dems want a draft, then they will have it. I can see Rove making this an election issue.

[T Bone]

7. FrontLine with Bill Moyers on PBS

brought this up this week. How the draft boards are manning and looking for people to serve on draft boards.

You don't make sure the draft boards are staffed unless you plan to have people going before them and that they will have to make decisions and find people to draft and serve.

It may be unavoidable now even if we elect a Democrat next year, but who will be more answerable to we the people when we say we don't want extended foreign wars fought with conscripted troops or with our local militias (reserves)? It sure won't be Bush. Bush will go along saying there are no draft plans -then as soon as he is elected there will be a huge, unending draft to raise armies for further adventures in SYRIA< IRAN< AND EGYPT....wherever his monkey brain wants to invade.

If a dem is elected there may still need to be a draft temporarily to supply the troops to get us out of Iraq in an orderly fashion and extract ourselves from the fiasco and quagmire that Bush and his henchmen have lied at every turn to get us into.

So we need to start talking about these for next year's election.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

8. Draft "Substitutes" order of the Day.

In the American Civil War (1860-1865) a draft "substitute" could be purchased by the rich. For $300.00 in 1863 a draft substitute would take your place in the Army. ($300.00 would buy 80 acres of good farmland, cleared, plowed, excellent ground.)

TODAY WE HAVE THIS--- SO FAR


<>

In this picture from the Polish Army, Polish soldiers stand next to the coffin of slain Maj. Hieronim Kupczyk, 44, during a ceremony in the Iraqi holy city of Karbala, Friday, Nov 7, 2003. Guerrillas shot and killed Kupczyk south of Baghdad on Thursday, the first soldier to die from the multi-national division set up to relieve the pressure on U.S. forces trying to stabilize Iraq . (AP Photo/Polish Army, Vladimir Meciar)

[happyslug]

82. 1863 Draft was for revenue NOT troops

If you have ever read the 1863 Draft act AND HOW IT WAS IMPLEMENTED, you quickly realized that it was never intended as a true draft, the Union had enough volunteers to fight (through many whose term of service had expired wanted a bonus to re-enlist, a Bonus the Union in 1863 no longer could afford. Thus the draft and its "substitutes". All type of people who were other exempt from the draft purchased substitutes (Lincoln did and he was exempt as the President, Grover Cleveland did, he was exempt for he was a New York State District Attorney, as did Andrew Carnegie, who was exempt for he had organized the Union Army Railroad in 1861 and thus had technically served).

Why did these men hire substitutes? To show that is was an honorable thing to do. The US army wanted the veterans to re-enlist, hiring them as a substitute would give them the bonus most of them wanted to re-enlist.

For some background, at the start of the War, most troops received a bonus to enlist in various units. These Bonuses were often made by the officers in charge of those units (The officers wanted the honor of commanding a military unit, mostly for political reasons). By 1863 this source of bonus revenue had dried up, most of the officers willing to buy a commission (by raising a Regiment) had done so. The problem was thus how to provide more money to get people to re-enlist (and also to get normal people to enlist). Thus the substitute provision. This permitted people to pay other people to enlist.

Do not worry, not only did individuals pay for substitutes, so did cities, towns etc. In such communities people raised money to pay for substitutes for anyone drafted from their communities. This was quite common (and probably why both Cleveland and Carnegie provided money for a substitute, i.e. showing that they would help someone avoid being drafted if that person did not want to serve).

Please also note, Conscience objectors were NOT exempt from the 1863 draft, the rationale was simple, if you truly did not want to go you would come up with the $300 to pay a substitute). COs were NOT a problem in 1863-1865, only became a problem in 1917-1918 and only addressed in the 1941-1972 draft.

[Roon]

22. link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077906,00.html

The Pentagon has begun recruiting for local draft boards, dredging up painful memories of Vietnam era conscription at a time of deepening misgiving about America's occupation of Iraq.

[BuckeFushe]

60. One flaw in our argument on the page from Selective Service

If you look closely (bottom of page), you'll notice it hasn't been modified since EARLY 2002. So either we are making a very big thing about this for nothing, or we are all pretty dumb for not talking about this sooner.


There is also a registration page for Board applicants.

http://www.sss.gov/fslocal.htm

[alfredo]

71. That shows how long the Junta has had plans for a draft. Remember

a bill reintroducing the draft was in committee at that time.

[BuckeFushe]

72. It also shows we are not doing enough to expose them

From April 2002 and November 2003 is a LONG time for this to remain under the radar.

[Don_G]

2. Of Course

Few rational individuals believe the spin coming out of the White House now and the disparity of treatment between the Regular Army and the Guardsmen are so great that there will be a big gap when the reservists are rotated home.

[izzie]

4. I think our best bet is to look in to these two things.

1) will this get Bush back into the White House and 2) will a large corp make money and maybe 3) will the Christian right want it.For get the country as that does not count, or the world they hate us every place and only either put up with us for what they can get or to save them selfs from a take over.The rest of us do not count. We have the "rulers" taking care of us.More and more I hear people call into c-span and say God gave Bush the power. This is really scary. Soon it will be called Gods Army.

[CivilRightsNow]

6. I have no doubt that these people are fighting a holy war

Some of them believe that he was ordained by God. Barbara Bush thought so.

People want to believe in something.

The fundies are gearing up.

[hang a left]

5. This denial reminds me ot the squatter's comments last winter

"There are no plans to evade Iraq on my desk."

[leftchick]

10. he actually said it in July 2002.....

every fucking thing that come out of his putrid mouth is a LIE!

[TacticalPeek]

15. "Read my lips. No new draft."

:silly:

[hang a left]

11. timed out for edit, I meant to say invade not evade, hadn't had

my coffee yet. I could be wrong, I am all the time, but I somehow remember whistle say this quite a few times.

[0007]

16. It could work both ways, don't worry about it!

[kayell]

67. Ha, I thought it was an actual quote

* language mistakes are often so revealing of his actual intentions and beliefs.

[shirlden]

36. He was right

There were no "plans". This is obvious. They just invaded without the plans.

Who needs plans? We are, after all, the greatest nation ever to exist and we have God as our leader. ;)

[radfringe]

9. not sure what this means

and haven't been able to get an answer...

but a notice went up at my workplace by the HR dept. asking that anyone that had served in the armed forces to notify the HR dept.

my company is not the kind that goes out of its way to honor anyone or give out rewards/bonuses based on merit/job performace... so I don't know what's up with this

The main office is in St. Louis, as is the main HR dept. - I'm in PA, and our "HR" rep doesn't know anything except that she was asked to post the notice...

Doesn't make sense that this is some way of collecting names to re-activate people - armed services would just have to go through their records to get those names...

eny-whoooo - anyone else seeing these notices/requests at their workplace?

[Noordam]

17. Radfringe - true story from the first Iraq War

in 98 I did a contract with the DC Metropolitian Police. The system programmer for their mainframes was a Marine in the early 70s. He worked in a special Nuc/Bio/Chem group in the Pentagon.

In the lead up to the first Iraq War, he received by special delievery(sp) this big thick package. When he opened it, there was one piece of paper and another envelope. The letter on Pentagon letterhead just said do not open second package and call this number. Well the second package would have been his recall to active Marine duty orders for the special Nuc/Bio/Chem group. He did not get called BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTttt.....

[NNN0LHI]

12. Army tour of duty in Iraq 'must be longer'

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1066565672385

The US army will not be able to sustain current force levels in Iraq beyond next spring unless it extends the tour of duty of its active units to more than the current year, the Congressional Budget Office said yesterday.

The Pentagon's decision this summer to extend the tour of duty of US troops in Iraq to a full year had already provoked strong criticism.

Douglas HoltzEakin, director of the CBO, told the US House of Representatives armed services committee yesterday that "the active army would be unable to sustain an occupation force of the present size beyond March 2004 if it chose not to keep individual units deployed to Iraq for longer than one year without relief".

The CBO said the army did not have enough active component forces "to simultaneously maintain the occupation at its current size, limit deployments to one year, and sustain all of its other commitments" - as the Pentagon had planned.

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[Mountainman]

14. Remember when Rummy said we could fight a two front war

First it was Clinton devastating the forces then it was "we could fight a two front war" now it's we don't have enough forces unless we extend deployments.

Bush is doing more to devastate the forces than Clinton could have ever done. No one wants to re-up to fight chimpy's wars.

[Big_Mike]

83. No, think back to the mid-90s...

The army end strength was around 725,000. The wall had fallen, and the politicos (of BOTH) parties couldn't wait to get their hands on money for troops "no longer needed" because of the reduction of threat.

Well, now we are reaping the whirlwind. OPTEMPO has driven many of my friends out after serving more than 10 years. This is critical, folks. They are the young field grade officers and the mid-grade NCOs who make the military work.

It takes at least three years (for a non-demanding MOS)to more than five years (for a difficult MOS) for a soldier to really be worth his or her keep. When I was a young enlisted, my skill manuals stacked about 9 inches high. By the time you add in the doctrinal books and special individual stuff, you could have a four foot bookcase full.

So don't think the draft will go anywhere. There is a world of difference between the equipment, tactics, techniques, and procedures used today as compared to then.

If you only have folks for two years, it isn't enough time to train them up to be worth a damn.

[Palacsinta]

18. I send every bit of DU Draft info on to friends...

and my family who have draft-age sons and daughters. I believe that my son will be out of the first all-inclusive pool of eligibles (18-26??) when he turns 27 in March. We all need to keep our heads up on this issue! NOT MY SON! NOT THIS WAR!!! (and I come from a military family....two colonels in the Air Force & Marines, Naval aviator husband, daughter served in the Army Reserves, father, World War II vet, aunt,MASH nurse WWII & ON & ON.....lest any freepers lurking on the board question my ABHORANCE of this UNJUST war!)

[saigon68]

19. Screw the Freepers --they are Pathetic

In my experience most of them are Chicken Hawk Draft Evader types.

They want to use your son so Corporate profits stay high.

And if he gets killed, well then a lecture of how he died for FREEDOM.


P.S.

Send this to your friends

Diane Carlson Evans, RN was one of the Movers behind the Viet-Nam Women's Memorial in Washington D.C.

She is a hero in my book. Read her article.


My turn
Anti-war, not anti-soldier

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14437

On a bleak night in the Central Highlands of Vietnam in 1969, just a few miles from the Cambodian border, I sent another young soldier from the 4th Infantry Division back to the United States.

This handsome young infantryman would not greet his waiting, anxious family with his timid smile and war weary eyes. After hanging yet another pint of blood, I touched his ashen face and looked into his sunken dark eyes filled with visions of war, memories of home, and fear of death. As I stroked his soft, cold face he whispered his last words: “I just wish I could see my Mom again.”

In that heartbreaking moment, I wanted to be his mother. He needed her grace and comfort and she deserved to be the one with him. He was still such a boy. As the color drained from his skin and life left this precious son, I instinctively knew that I could never let him go; he would be the guardian of my memories and rage at a government that betrayed us by not giving us a clear mission in Vietnam or reason to stay. Lyndon Johnson’s words, “We shall win this war at all cost,” stung deeply as I softly whispered another goodbye to the cost -- a good soldier

[Palacsinta]

20. Makes me sick!

You know, it's obvious that the military urgently needs more troops. Might be interesting to find out how many freepers are volunteering or encouraging their children to do so. I really would like to see some numbers!!!!!

[saigon68]

23. THE WALL

"They never saw what napalm does to a little girl's skin. They never saw a 19-year-old from Iowa screaming and writhing on the ground because a mine blew his legs off. They never saw a man take a bullet through the brain, then watch his body flop around on the ground for a minute or so because it doesn't realize he's dead. They never put pieces of someone into a bag, not knowing who it was until you read the tags, because there wasn't any face left to go along with the other parts. They haven't seen the shit I've seen, and they want to do it all over again." - anonymous man at the Vietnam Memorial Wall quoted by Alfred A. Hambidge, Jr.

[stevedeshazer]

53. After seeing The Wall

I'll never, ever be the same.

[Palacsinta]

32. Thanks--read it, and will pass it on.

That precious boy dying........just so heartbreaking. My husband, who seved in Vietnam off of the carrier Ranger, once told me that those years were a wasteland in his life....not because he lacked honor or did not serve with distinction, but because the cause was not just and he never felt it was, even as he did his duty.

[kalian]

30. They should START with the freepers....

given that they are so "gungho" and "brave"... Send those motherf@%$%
first! :mad:

[GCP]

21. Good luck, Carl Sheasley - brainwashed (braindead) 17 yr old

"Carl Sheasley, 17, a member of the UW College Republicans, wearing a Bush/Cheney '04 sticker while attending a rally in opposition to a rally for Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich: "I would go right now. I will unilaterally support this country," he said, adding that military service isn't his first choice, but that he'd serve if his president asked him to. "I believe that the Iraq war was a just conflict."

[Bombero1956]

26. oh yeah

he'll think it's just until the first RPG comes his way or he sees one of his buddies get blown away. My 45 year old brother who served in the guard for 24 years and had retired 18 months ago was told last week that he is being recalled into service. IMO Smirk will use every avenue at his disposal to avoid the draft(he's good at that) and won't use it until he's safely back in office. The Democrats have to keep the draft issue before the American people and keep hammering at Bush. They should ask Bush this question, "do you swear to God that you will not institute a draft and that nobody in your administration will institute a draft".

[shanti]

48. can they do that?

recall someone who is RETIRED?

[Bombero1956]

49. yeah they can

he's listed as I.R.R., Inactive Ready Reserve subject to reinstatement to duty at any time for 2 years from retirement date. Plus his MOS is chemical weapons instructor.

[kalian]

31. Good...now...please sign here...right now....

Let's see the little schmuck sign the enlistment form RIGHT NOW.
And please...send him DIRECTLY to Fallujah after boot camp. No little
cushy post somewhere else...oh no...right into the thick of it.

[teryang]

24. Just for the sake of argument

...People with children now 9 or 10 years old need to consider the implications of the Pentagons manpower crisis during the never ending "war on terror." This conflict like Vietnam or the P/I could easily be going on ten years from now unless a lot of people wise up and we get our democracy back.

[saigon68]

25. Absolutely could go or a long time.

I have no doubt that when Bobby Kennedy became President in 1968 he would have ended that nonsense.

But Nixon---well remember "Peace with Honor"

another million lives lost.

This thing could go on 10 more years. I will do my best to stop that from happening

[Minstrel Boy]

27. They've told us it's a multigenerational war.

"May not end in our lifetimes"... "May not end on our watch, but it will be waged on our watch..."

There's still a lot of oil out there, and it may not run out in our lifetimes.

[Eloriel]

47. "We have always been at war with Oceana." n/t

[Kitsune]

28. Canada looking better and better... *nt*

[kalian]

29. They're denying it because of the elections....

They would like to keep it under wraps until AFTER the elections
but unfortunately for them they need to start up the selective service
process now in order to be ready when the go ahead is given.
My bets: by Summer 2005 kids will be start being drafted.

[kutastha]

37. That's a long time to hold

That's a long time to hold the Iraqis off. Can the admistration politically (and we emotionally) take this for another year? I don't think so. Bushco didn't plan on the precipitous 9/11 poll numbers drop (and thus have tried to hold on to it as long as possible), and I certainly don't think planned on the quagmire going on now. They had four years to get their shit started, and they're way behind schedule. They were planning on using Iraq as a wedge in the region to take on their next steps towards their PNAC control. They started talking about Syria and Iran almost as soon as the "Mission Accomplished" sign went up. However, the Iraqis fought back, and will continue to do so. They're losing time, money, men and women day by day. It's already cost too much in lives and resources, and it will get even worse.

Even if they do win the election, somehow contain Iraq and institute the draft in 2005, it's going to be a nightmare once they try to move into Syria and Iran. They had unrealistic goals and I believe they're falling way short of their projections.

[Guaranteed]

50. I'll have just turned 26, then....

Is it 18 THROUGH 26, or are you clear when you hit 26 for the SS?

[Trek234]

33. Rememeber several weeks ago bush appointed a new SS head....

another sign.

[Military Brat]

38. "asked this week if the president (sic) is considering ..."

Hell, no, he isn't "considering." He's already made up his mind. For crying out loud, can't these reporters ever ask the right question?

"Mr. Bush, you have decided to reinstate the draft in 2005; is that true?"

Then he can say yes, it's true, or no, it's not true. But he would lie, anyway, because once he's in, what's another lie to this bloodthirsty imperialist?

[Palacsinta]

39. File not Found on Gov. site???

Went to send (to my sister with draft-age son) this link on the Gov. "Defend America" site re: asking for people to work on draft boards for the SSS and the file is gone. I did a search and can't find it. Am I paranoid or just stupid & inept??? The link was contained in a DU post several days ago.....referenced in a Salon article, I think.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html

[hang a left]

42. Oh yes it sure was, I looked at it and emailed it around.

Those fuckers took it down. This is hush hush, they know it will cost them the election

[RapidCreek]

52. Still want it?

Here's a cached copy of the page you wanted and another you may find interesting.

Might want to take a screen shot of that first one encase google flushes it from the cache.

RC

[hang a left]

56. Well thank you very kindly RC!

[RapidCreek]

76. Your welcome folks

RC

[Palacsinta]

66. Thank you so much!!

Sent it on as planned, also the other site about applying to be on the draft board.

[kayell]

68. Another good source for removed pages

The Wayback Machine
http://www.archive.org/

This link wasn't in there, but often you can find removed links there.

[cliss]

40. And this is why I stay tuned to the DU

If I were a young male, healthy, between the age of 18 and 26, I would start collecting travel brochures from Beautiful, Sunny, Canada.

No life is worth sacrificing for Oil and Corporate Interests. This is not a war about defense.

[PATRICK]

41. add demoralization

and the likelihood of declining reenlistment and enlistments under Bush II(include the national guard big time- no refuge there). On so many argumentative fronts it is so inevitable that Bush will have to have a draft. His stubborness on hanging onto Iraq alone and the "list" to follow, disenchantment with his leadership shrinking and purging the officer corps and the enlisted ranks, the growing of our enemies abroad and shrinking of cooperation. ALL this is specifically Bush II. The public perception should be plainly focuessed on the fact that under democrats is the ONLY chance to avoid more wars draft and friendlkess quagmires dogged by ruthless incompetence for corporate profit.

If you are going to wake up any of the youth vote who have ANY foresight, knowledge or self-preservation inutition skills OR idealism
this simple fact should be driven home hard and not from the sidelong approach of critiquing Bush's methodology in Iraq.

[kicknitup]

43. I know I'm niave but...

I really can't see the government thinking the American people would support a draft. I honestly think Americans would take to the streets and I mean people of all ages. I would. I've got nephews of draft age and a fifteen year old son.

Plus what about drafting women? How would they do a draft this time around so that the poor, the working class, and minorities weren't hit the hardest. I don't think people would stand for this.

Also, would the senate and house have to pass a resolution to actively reinstate the draft. (Can't see that happening either).

[Fovea]

45. another terrah

and they got what ever they want, or so they believe.

[Fovea]

44. From the military planning Journal 'Duh'.

You cannot be Rome without the Legions and the Praetorian Guard.

[fishnfla]

46. Sure fire clue: current volunteer enlistment rates?

Does anyone know how the volunteer enlistment rates are going? I'd imagine come next may (graduation) we'll have a better idea.

Also you could look at college application rates as well to get a number-wisee idea.

[Bombero1956]

51. another point

is the sheer number of soldiers who are refusing to return to duty in Iraq after coming home on 2 weeks R&R. From the Not in Our Name site.

Yet some military personnel are going AWOL or deserting to avoid returning to Iraq.

“I definitely don’t want to go back there,” a Florida National Guardsman told CBS News. “I think most people — if not all people who are there — don’t want to be there.”

That Guardsman missed his flight back to Iraq on Oct. 18. According to the Washington Post, the soldier has not returned to duty and may be on the run.
According to Natalie Granger of the Army Public Affairs Office, 3,800 soldiers deserted in 2002. Three thousand two hundred fifty-five were returned to military control. In 2001, 5,065 deserted and 4,966 were returned.

If that many deserted during peacetime can you imagine how many may desert now.

[MattNC]

58. meeting goals

all the branches are meeting - even exceding - this year's recruitment goals.

[kayell]

69. There was an article earlier this week

They beat their quota on enlistments and re-ups. Of course that was after they lowered the quota twice in 6 months, and then offered a $5000 bonus in the last two weeks. I'll try to find the link.

[gulliver]

54. "We must win" collides with "Not enough personnel to win"

When that happens we will have to: 1) go to the rest of the world for troops, 2) give up on winning, or 3) go to a draft.

Here's the terrible part. The longer Bush holds off on option 1, the worse the situation will get. That will make option 1 less and less viable as time goes by, and the clock is ticking on it -- fast.

Option 2 is terrible because it essentially turns the middle east into a sort of political Chernobyl.

That leaves Option 3, the draft. They'll get my son over my dead body.

Thanks, Bush!

[DivinBreuvage]

55. Here's why it COULD happen

The more I hear about this...

the more I believe in the likelihood that the draft is going to be reinstated, especially in light of the "under-the-radar" laying-the-groundwork steps some posters have already observed. I don't think there's any doubt that Bush will furiously deny it for the time being. We all know that after he's been securely reinstalled in the presidency he can always declare that "unforeseen circumstances" or "new challenges" have forced him to "alter policy", in much the same way that soporific woodenhead Bob Taft discovered miraculous new statistics on the poor state of Ohio's finances two weeks after winning reelection.

We all know popular opinion holds that reinstating the draft will be political suicide. Maybe. But that doesn't necessarily render the possibility remote. I believe this administration has become increasingly dismissive of public opinion. I don't think they took it very seriously to begin with, and the fact that every outrage they've committed has always been spun sufficiently to keep them from being called to account can only have increased their sense of arrogance and invulnerability. Bush himself has little to worry about in any event since he won't be a candidate for re-election anyway.

More significantly, it seems to me that across the nation something dark and ugly is beginning to bubble to the surface. Perhaps it's just because reading the news on DU means I hear things now that I didn't before, or perhaps the assiduousness of the posters here in spotlighting rightwing excesses makes the events seem to occur more frequently then they actually do. Perhaps I'm mistaken and nothing has really changed in the past four or eight or twelve years. But it does seem to me that right-wing and/or fundamentalist elements are beginning to feel more comfortable in openly expressing some of the more extreme opinions that they formerly were careful to keep below the radar. I think they're becoming increasingly confident that this is their time, that their long, hard struggle against liberalism and godlessness is finally paying off, and that at last they're going to be given the reins of power which they've so long been denied. I'm not talking about your next-door-neighbor "small c" conservative now but about the right-wing PNAC ideologue and the "End Times" fundamentalist. I'm talking about the people who will pursue their goals regardless of the repercussions because they're convinced they are utterly, absolutely right and no one has the power to stop them.

Another Republican victory in 2004 will surely be the final evidence these people need to convince them that their time has truly come. In such a case I think it's likely they will boldly strip off the mask and do whatever they need to do to secure their goals. If that means reinstating the draft, they will attempt to reinstate it, and I have serious doubts that enough people in Congress have the spine to face them down over issues of "patriotism" and "national security". Whether the public will erupt in outrage or meekly submit remains to be seen.

Françoise

[kicknitup]

70. good points.....

and I would like to expand on them.

One thing that upsets me is that a lot of good Christian (even very conservative people)get grouped in with the end-of-times folk. Take my dad for example. He goes to a very conservative church but is afraid of people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell who are involved in the political process. He is a strong supporter of the seperation of church and state. He read the Koran because he wanted to decide for himself if the Muslims holy book supported terrorism (his conclusion - NO). He doesn't like Bush's faith-based initiative. He is against the war in IRAQ. He is anti-abortion and thinks gays should be afforded the same rights as others but no special ones.

My point? Maybe something dark and bubbly is bubbling on the surface of our country, but at the same time we can't discount the thousands of good, hard-working, religous people in our country who if it begins to boil over will be their to counter the ugliness.

Conservative Christian does not equal right-wing nut.
Christianity does not equal right wing nut.
The Islamic faith does not equal fundamentalist terrorist.
Thanks for allowing me to vent.

[DivinBreuvage]

77. Well said, kicknitup!

And I hope you don't think I was lumping all Conservatives or Christians into my thesis (I tried to make it clear I was talking about the extremists).

That's why I'm not ready to accept that the situation is hopeless. America has been pushed into crisis by the right wing twice before and in both cases millions of Americans rose to the occasion. When some folks here lament at the lack of outrage shown by the public over the current administration's behavior, I think the answer is that the situation just hasn't gone on long enough yet, it hasn't gotten bad enough yet. It takes time for public opinion to shift so radically and it takes time for the American people to come to the awareness that something has to be done.

Françoise

P.S. Your father sounds like a very smart man.

[kicknitup]

79. He is.......

and I hope others can understand that even amongst very conservative Christians there are plenty who would say that the Jerry Falwells of the world don't speak for them.

It seems like religion (esp. Christianity) is somewhat of a laughing-stock on some of these posts. True faith (in all its forms) can save our world but unfortunately, as you have noted, it may reach the crisis point before the faithful raise their voices.

On a side note, I work with a woman who I could also describe as a conservative Christian. She thinks our country will be destroyed because of homosexuality but she dislikes Bush and told me she told her nephews if they are ever drafted to Iraq to head to Canada.

We just can't put people in boxes like we're all guilty of doing.

And I don't think the situation is hopeless either. I think America's mothers and fathers would take to the streets before we would let them take our sons. I know I would.

[MattNC]

57. still not convinced

that a draft is going to happen. unlike most of DU i just don't see the Administration having any grandiose plans for invading Syria, Iran, and especially not North Korea. most of its just paranoid posters but i digress.

[TOhioLiberal]

59. Please God,

NO! I can't stand the thought of a draft! Way back on 9/11/01 I worried aloud about the possibility of a draft. People looked at me like I had lost my mind. And now this...this travesty! If my eldest gets drafted (!) I will encourage him to leave this Bushdom and see his fortunes elsewhere...

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[Dover]

61. They'll likely try to hold off on the draft until after the election......

.

[VolcanoJen]

62. Kick!!

:dem:

[Judi Lynn]

63. Overnight kick!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[aeon flux]

64. As the article mentioned,

Congress won't approve a draft unless something on the scale of Pearl Harbor or 9/11 happens again. They'll need to engineer another 9/11 event for it to happen.

[truthisfreedom]

65. yeah, well according to noam chomsky, a "fear" event is in the works.

another "fear" event, as he describes it, is the only way bushco can get back in charge.

edited to add link:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=3&u=/nm/20031030/pl_nm/cuba_usa_chomsky_dc

[MattNC]

73. i just dont believe that

as much as i hate the administration, i just think that view is awfully cynical.

[tom_paine]

74. Well a "quick, emphatic" no from the Busheviks means "yes"

the draft is coming.

Do the math.

[Bombero1956]

75. just this morning

Senator John McCain was on CBS This Morning and was saying that this extended involvement in Iraq will have longterm consequences for the Reserves and National Guard. Nobody will want to join knowing that they can be sent away for an extended period.

[catmandu57]

78. Tick tick tick

The clock is running, and it's running out, more soldiers and equipment lost in Iraq everyday. The Iraqis are ratcheting up, morale as I see it is nonexistant, the reserve and guard units that are going to go in to replace the A team are going to get chewed to bits.
Kkkarl, and his henchmen are shaking in their boots right now, they know a draft is the deathknell for the chimp* and the misadministration.

They will do everything possible to steal the upcomming election, and hold off a draft until afterwards. That I believe is the plan, but, we know how well their plans go.

[Dr Fate]

80. A lot of young republicans will be crapping their pants...

...and like their fellow Chickenhawk, Ted Nugent, perhaps even literally...

[gajs]

81. Yes.. process of getting local draft boards organized

I signed on the internet just to see what type of information that would be sent.

The administration is in the process to reinstate the draft and getting citizens to head draft boards.

If this administration gets elected for the first time(second term)
it will start the draft unless Congress has the fortitude to do its job and put a halt to this madness.