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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:32 PM
Original message
Blair left in impossible position on war - Clinton

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=64882006

Blair left in impossible position on war - Clinton

THE former US president Bill Clinton claims Tony Blair was in an "impossible position" before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

In an interview yesterday, Mr Clinton said the failure of the Prime Minister's attempts to win a second UN resolution on the matter left him "out there all alone".

Mr Blair "had to decide which way to go", and relied upon intelligence that claimed it was likely Iraq had biological and chemical weapons, Mr Clinton said.

"I think he decided that he better go on and maintain the transatlantic alliance," Mr Clinton told the BBC. "He was in an impossible position."


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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. So is Clinton if he thinks anyone who thinks is gonna buy that nonsense.
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Not really.
John Howard used the "maintain the alliance" argument to justify his involvement in the war. And it has made him immune from all the damaging WMD allegations that have come out since.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. How nice for john howard.
"maintain the alliance" no matter if it involves killing innocent people and going to war on Iraq based on the LIES of Chimp Management Inc.

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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Oops, mis-posted. Reply 9 is for you.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Thanks, I hadn't realized.

But that fact doesn't alone tell me that it would put the alliance at "risk", not that I think I really know what that means.

Is Germany threatening England, or Japan threatening Austrailia? Clinton makes it sound like WWII.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. Clintonian apologies for Bush's poodle really takes the cake!
Is this what we have to look forward to if Hillary runs for President?
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. *ding*
:thumbsup:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. IF
Hillary wins the primary, there will be no doubt that our elections are rigged. None. Nada. Zilch.

It's the neocons that are pushing her name for '08. They know there's no way in hell the majority of voters would vote for her.

But, to answer your question, YES.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. "It's the neocons that are pushing her name for '08."
Agreed.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Neo-cons pushing Hilliary reminds me of how the repubs
said Dean would be their choice for the Dem. presidential nomination, he would be so easy to defeat. Claimed he spoke outrageously about the issues. They were working all the angles. Many dems seem to believe this propaganda and made sure Dean was out. No dem. has been outspoken since. We are playing into the repubs hands, of course along with the media who gives them all the help they need.

Off subject. Is Alito getting some real pressure from the liberal groups? Seems there is more rumbling over Alito than Roberts. I am hearing concise reasons why Alito is so very wrong for the SC.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. With the Downing Street Minutes proving that the war was a farce...
Blair, if he was an honorable and ethical man, would have told Bush to go fuck himself....

Clinton....is part of the cabal too (if you all don't realize that by now)

And yes, flame away.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. remember, Clinton also tried to sell that same intel turkey...
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 08:38 PM by mike_c
...so Clinton's credibility regarding Iraq is no better than Bush's or Blair's. When you get right down to it, Clinton is responsible for killing more Iraqis than Bush by a probable factor of 10, so I'll take anything Clinton says regarding the motives for invading Iraq with a big grain of salt.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. How so?
Did Clinton maintain a 1000 plus day war on Iraq? And did the USA have 2000 plus casualties? And thousands of wounded?

I don't think your comment holds water...
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Question: Did Clinton maintain a 1000 plus day war on Iraq?

Answer: Yes, he did.

Enforcing the no-fly zone was the source of much suffering for the Iraqi people (with whom we have no quarell).

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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. So,
enforcing the no-fly zone, 100,000 plus Iraqi people have been murdered? How? I really don't understand how that could happen.

t has been stated that over 100,000 innocent Iraqi men, women and children have been killed during this current evil assault on Iraq.

Any links so I can read?
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Sorry. I have no links handy.

The UN did a study, somewhere during the late ninties, that concluded that about 1/2 million Iraqi kids bit the dust because of the sanctions.

So to be fair, the no-fly zone is different, if related to sanctions, and the sanctions were a UN thing, not specifically the US/Clinton Admin.

If you look it up you'll come across Albright excusing the toll on the kids, and the Progressive reaction, as you'd imagine, to it.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. the U.S. was the implacable force behind the sanctions...
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 09:07 PM by mike_c
...using the U.N. for cover only. Read Scott Ritters comments in the Democracy Now interview here: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/21/144...
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Thanks. And here's a fix for the link.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. whoops-- THANKS!
eom
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. The sanctions apparently kept Saddam from gathering
much in the way of a military that could attack anyone in the area, Kuwait, Iran, etc. The Kurds had new freedom due to the no fly zone in the North, same for the Shites. Well, the Shites (sp?) were massacred right after we left Iraq when bush 1 told them to overthrow Saddam, he would give them support, which was a big lie and thousands were killed.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Saddam Hussein was disarmed by 1992...
...yet Clinton maintained the sanctions for his entire presidency, EVEN THOUGH IRAQ WAS NO LONGER A THREAT TO ANYONE. Read the Ritter interview posted elsewhere in this thread. The blood of 500,000 children-- and an additional 500,000 other Iraqi civilians-- is largely on Bill Clinton's hands.
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. But, without the inspectors and the no fly zone
Edited on Sat Jan-14-06 01:55 AM by lyonn
maybe he would have become a threat? Hell, I don't know, Iran is a bigger threat now. If we had left Saddam alone those 2 countries could have started attacking each other again using up all their money on bombs and bullets. Crazy world.

Ritter makes a lot of sense. Ritter never explains what the consequences might have been if we had left iraq in the 90's.
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SquireJons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Get Real
While you don't mention shrub in your post, it seems that you are tacitly comparing Clinton with the current situation in Iraq.

First of all, it is ridiculous to compare the 90's with our our current adventure. Clinton was handed justification for war in the middle east on several occasions and he always rejected it. In fact, the right wing has had a field day with the topic. Bush, on the other hand, came into office just itching for all out war in the middle east.

Second, you are portraying Iraq under Hussein as some sort of ordinary country. It was not. While there were some folks who raised questions about Iraq's military capabilities, there is no doubt that Iraq was still a very dangerous and dominant country in that part of the world. Almost everyone believed that Iraq had much more military capability at the time of 9/11. If the sanctions had been lifted, what do you think would have been the result? Shangrala? Auschwitz is more probable. You state that Iraq was not a threat to anyone (in capitol letters, no less). Well, that is not the way any of the other counties in the region viewed them. Iraq was, and still is one of the largest, richest, most populist and most aggressive countries in the middle east.

Now, none of this justified an invasion of Iraq, but Clinton didn't invade Iraq, he simply maintained the pressure in the hopes of an internal coup. Didn't happen, but it was worth a try cause it beats all out war (as we have seen). If the government of Iraq wanted everyone happy, healthy and wealthy, then they had more than enough resources to achieve that goal. The deaths in Iraq before 2002 shouldn't have occurred at all. The truth is that Hussein actually wanted the suffering that his people endured, because a) he didn't care about Iraqi's and b) it made him a martyr.

Also, the sanctions and many of the deaths after the war were a result of the effects of the first gulf war, again something that Clinton was not responsible for. While I am not blinded by Clinton's conservative side, I reject completely the notion that he has the blood of Iraqi children on his hands. Shrub, and his father, on the other hand are literally swimming in blood.

Look, being President of the United States is very difficult job. You don't simply represent the interests of liberal pin heads like myself or esteemed progressives like yourself. A President also must balance the interests of big business (yes, they do run the economy and provide us with slavery, I mean jobs), the military, and lots of other folks who don't usually agree with us. If we think that junior should consider the interests and feelings of all americans, even us, than so should Clinton consider the concerns of all americans and american institutions. It's a very tough balancing act; one that I know I could never do. So, while I have many regrets about positions taken by Clinton over the years, the bottom line is that he did a better job of being President than anyone else has in my lifetime. And blaming him for the actions of dictators is wrong and a red herring.

Let's try a little conjecture: if the sanctions had been lifted in the early to mid 1990's what do you think would have happened in Iraq?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. links....
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Shit man...
Over 500,000 children dead from these sanctions. What a crime against humanity....

I did a quick read - was it the UN who authorized the sanctions? It does not matter - it is truly criminal no matter what.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Clinton maintained the economic sanctions against Iraq...
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 08:52 PM by mike_c
...for nearly a decade after Iraq complied with U.N. disarmament mandates, mostly just to save himself the political embarassment of lifting them and dealing with Saddam Hussein. Scott Ritter has discussed this at length, so I'll leave it to you to read it yourself. During that time an estimated ONE MILLION IRAQI CIVILIANS died of hunger, disease, and other causes directly resulting from the embargo and the associated military harassment (e.g. bombing). Over 500,000 were children. When asked about the deaths of half a million children, Madelaine Albright, then Clinton's ambassador to the U.N., famously replied "that's a price that we think is worth paying."

Just so there's no ambiguity here, estimates of Iraqi civilians killed during Bush's invasion and occupation run from 30,000 to 100,000. Estimates of the number killed during Clinton's embargo and bombing are in the range of 10 times that number.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I will read up on it... and...
it seems the USA has been after Iraq starting with Pappy Bush. One thing for sure, they do not represent me when our own leaders want to kill innocent people. It is disgusting...
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. add this one to the links above....
Ritter's interview on Democract Now a couple of months ago:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/21/144...
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
36. What a douchebag! (Albright)
When asked about the deaths of half a million children, Madelaine Albright, then Clinton's ambassador to the U.N., famously replied "that's a price that we think is worth paying."

7th Level of hell, for the douchebag Albright.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bullshit inexcusable bullshit
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 08:58 PM by kenny blankenship
At some point the enablers of Fascism and the apologists who trundle after them are just as guilty as the little murderers hatching plots from their undisclosed bunker locations.

Tony Blair had the choice of siding with civilization and the established order of International Law that has cost us millions of lives in sacrifice to create, or the choice of prostituting Britain to the American cock for his own narrow benefit. If he had refused Bush's overtures, the Atlantic Alliance would have been far better served and everyone on this side would come to understand that he had chosen the right. Instead of choosing the right, he couldn't whore himself and his country out fast enough.
He should go on trial.
Clinton is scarcely any better since if Blair enables Nazis, Clinton makes excuses for him.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bullshit
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 09:01 PM by Gloria
as is his other comment about Blair becoming head of the UN...

Stick to AIDS, Bill.
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. How dare Clinton not bash and trash-talk Blair like we wiser folks!
Blair did what he did because Blair is a weak human being! A disgrace! A horror of an individual! No, there are no grey areas - it's all dumb them and wise us! We know better because we sit here and read Internet articles all day!

Damn that Clinton!

:eyes: :sarcasm: :eyes:
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Don't know anyone is calling on Clinton to bash Blair.

We're just calling him on his supporting Blair.

There's a difference.

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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Good sarcastic point...well taken.
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Chomp Donating Member (602 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. Clinton's right about the politics, as usual
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
30. It is pretty pathetic
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 09:41 PM by fujiyama
to see Clinton defending Blair.

One thing has to be kept in mind though - Clinton is good friends with Blair. Both were from relative moderate wings of their parties and were elected at the same time (or within a few years of each other). Both transformed their parties to some extent as well (though I'm sure most of us would say for the worse). Though I would say that Blair has over the last few years takena hard turn to the right.

Still, I would rather have had him respond by saying, "You'll have to ask him that" instead of some bullshit "keeping the alliance" excuse.

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SquireJons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-14-06 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. We don't know much about what Blair was thinking
Yes, the actions of the UK are just as reprehensible as our own, but it's likely that Blair had a staring role in a shotgun wedding. A few things that we do know:

A) England's economy is very dependent on the US, much more so than Germany or France.
B) Blair worked very well with Clinton on reducing world tensions
C) Leaders of countries make many life and death decisions
D) Blair is looking out for England, and only England
E) The US, under * has had the most aggressive and retaliatory foreign policy since Teddy Roosevelt

So while Blair could have made a courageous moral stand, his country (and his political party) would have suffered greatly had he acted differently. From all that I have read, Blair consistently tried to talk reason to the Bush mis-administration in private. He may be the only outside voice georgie-boy has ever had to listen to. Hell, he hung up on his own father rather than listen to any other opinions, so perhaps it's a good thing - who knows where we'd be without Blairs (weak) foot on the brake?
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
31. Here We Go Again
Another democratic leader covering/excusing for the war mongers.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. Blair's intelligence is quinteq - a company owned by carlyle.
Edited on Fri Jan-13-06 09:43 PM by superconnected
He got them when he privitized englands intelligency agency and gave it to them. Being on Carlyles board of directors may have swayed him.

Bust tried to privitize our intelligence agency. Wonder which company he was going to give it to.

Either way Carlyle profits in time of war with united defense and many many other contracting groups they start and disband as contracts become available - ie the it group that cleaned up anthrax became the shaw group that helped cleaned up katrina, both part of the carlyle group.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-13-06 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
35. Horseshit! Blair was on board with the war crime in Iraq all the way.
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