Houston to Link Teachers' Pay, Test Scores

[Judi Lynn]

Houston to Link Teachers' Pay, Test Scores

Wednesday January 11, 2006 10:17 PM


By JUAN A. LOZANO
Associated Press Writer

HOUSTON (AP) - Houston is about to become the biggest school district in the nation to tie teachers' pay to their students' test scores.

School Superintendent Abe Saavedra wants to offer teachers as much as $3,000 more per school year if their students improve on state and national tests. The program could eventually grow to as much as $10,000 in merit pay.

The school board is set to vote on the plan Thursday. Five of the nine board members have said they support it.

``School systems traditionally have been paying the best teacher the same amount as we pay the worst teacher, based on the number of years they have been teaching,'' Saavedra said. ``It doesn't make sense that we would pay the best what we're paying the worst. That's why it's going to change.''
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5539285,00.html

[MADem]

1. Let the CHEATING begin!!! n/t

[salin]

3. Begin?

This is the former sec of ed's district. The claim had been that the plans behind NCLB began their and the district showed miraculous "improvement" - indeed a "Texas Miracle"... until school after school was implicated for various fraud/cheating in order to meet the goals - and create the 'miracle.' This will just heighten the pressure to do more of the same.

[MADem]

24. You are CORRECT!!! I should have said "begin in EARNEST!" n/t

[saigon68]

34. That's why they kick out the Blacks and poor white trash

For possessing a joint.

Once you "CLEANSE" the CLASSROOM scores go up.

[Selteri]

2. This won't end well.

Sir, why is Jimmy drooling? He's a 4.0 in Houston schools, "Oh, that's because he's a moron, but his teacher drives a Porsche.

[MoJoWorkin]

5. You must not know anything about teacher pay.

You think if they got a couple of thou extra they could afford a Porsche?
They have to teach to the test now, and if they do a good job of that, their Principals get the extra bucks in TX. This is NOT the way to improve the education of our young. Learning what is on the test is NOT an education.

AND it is NOT the Teachers fault. My daughter teaches in TX, and I know first hand what teachers have to put up with. IF they can get beyond the discipline problems that the admin. won't help them with(I am talking about serious problems,like kids who like to start fires, etc); IF they can get beyond an administration that is pressuring the teacher and using up their precious prep period for constant meetings to browbeat them to try and do better on the test scores so that that admin. can make those extra bucks; IF they can get beyond the mounds of paper work; IF they can get beyond large class sizes; IF they can get beyond the individual preps they have to do for EACH ADHD kid (which is at least half of each class); IF they can get beyond the language barriers (more than half of her kids are Spanish 1st language--sometimes ONLY language); If they can get beyond mouthy parents who blame the teacher, but who aren't doing THEIR jobs--then maybe they can get down to teaching the TEST---NOT what they WANT to teach, or should teach. Teachers WANT to do a good job with our young, or they wouldn't be in the profession. $30,000 a year(if some are lucky) won't buy a Porsche. Thank you very much!

[rodeodance]

6. my gawd---this is really a low blow both to teachers and kids.

[AnneD]

18. you are so right...

the wording is so vague it will be like trying to hit a moving target. They did away with one program because too many teachers were achiving the objectives and it was costing them.
On this one, you can start the new year with a class of new students (say kinders)not know their level, teach them well and still not get anything because you can't measure improvements. What if your class is gifted and does well, achieving the SAME high level...no improvement no bonus.
It is a rigged shell game. I thank God I only have 7 more years til retirement. That is if they don't figure a way to scam me out of it.
I can't recommend either Nursing or Teaching as professions...It just is not worth it any more.

[Selteri]

26. It was meant as a sarcastic remark.

If the teacher's pay is increased by better grades in their students they'll push their students grades up more readily. I used the word Porsche to show the ludicriousness of the idea that just throwing money at the teachers for good grades will oft enough result at the same thing of throwing money at Congressmen asking them to deliver on something.

I know how bad the schools are, we have problems on both sides, there are teachers who are not teaching, the amount of kids being diagnosed with ADHD is on a level that is preposterous and suggests that there is something much more at the source of this problem. If we truly have even 25% of the kids in those classes diagnosed with ADHD then we have an epidemic of proportions that are unheard of in psychological issues.

If we were t stop putting kids into cattle car classes that are jammed full, started treating them like humans and giving them the attention they really need to be able to learn to the capability of their mental abilities and were to as a society start encouraging iteligence instead of punishing it in youth for the support of nothing but sports we might start to affect a change.

There are two teachers in my family, I know how much they earn and I also know how much they should earn and do deserve for trying to bring our children enlightment every day. I think that at the least a teacher's starting pay shold be 45k a year and expenses for field trips, real educational tools and making sure the younger kids (Like below 5th grade) get their butts exercised off twice or three times a day so they are able to learn ebcause they've burned off all their spare energy out playing sports. The teachers who have a track record of producing good students for the next year and that show affects on their students that last beyond the clasroom should be rewardedwith pay increases.

The idea of paying teachers more for higher test scores and higher grades doesn't motivate them to teach students, but to make cookie cutter test takers that regurgitate rather than think.

My opinion on how to reward teachers, when thy teach a kid who gets average grades and the kid improves then continues to improve when they leave that classroom and go on to show long term improvement. Those are the teachers that should also teach the teachers. Those who touch their students in the mind and produce better students. Conversly, students who go from having good or above average grades that suddenly drop in their grades and tests should have those teachers end up being investigated as to why they are losing our young minds to apathy, especially if the student's grades remain depressed or get worse afterwards. While not everything involved there is the teacher's fault, if a pattern forms it is an indicator of someone who should not teach children.

[jazzjunkysue]

37. MoJo: We are not worthy. I bow to you and your daughter. Truer words

were never spoken.

God bless you.

If I weren't in NY, I'd take you out to lunch.

This will not last. It will take only one semester of inner city schools without teachers before this is reversed. I doubt seriously if the teachers will remain in the classroom with this brainless scheme. The inner city scores will not ever go very far up, no matter what anyone does. But you keep teaching, anyway. But with no pay for inner city teachers, those kids will be let out onto the street, the crime/pregnancy/drug rate will skyrocket, and the decision will be reversed.

The truth is, people are jealous of us for our job security, but they don't want to go into teaching, so, they try to take away our security.

As long as there are kids, there will be a need for teachers.

[XemaSab]

45. You know second hand

If it was YOU teaching, then it would be first hand.

Not trying to bash, just trying for accuracy.

[Binka]

4. Teaching To The Test Sorta Eliminates Critical Thinking

Think that's the real goal? Shit yeah.

[hedgehog]

14. Teaching to the test can be a good thing

The question is, has the student mastered a specified body of knowledge. A well designed test that matches a clear curriculum does that. For example, in science and math courses, a good tst would be multiple choice questions combined with "story problems" combined with lab work. In literature, language, social studies, multiple choice, true/false, fill in blank to show grasp of basic facts, essay questions to show use of basic facts in applying critical thinking skills. The key factor is matching the test to the curriculum and not playing "gotcha" with the teachers and students. For example, most American History courses mention the Whiskey Rebellion only in passing. To spring a test on the students that focuses on the main players and dates of the Whiskey Rebellion while ignoring World War II for example, would be a classic case of playing "gotcha"

[Orrex]

20. Exactly.

It's been the goal for decades, and it's been remarkably successful.

[E-Z-B]

7. Yeah, this is a good way to get teachers to work in the toughest schools

:eyes:

[M155Y_A1CH]

8. Let the fight for gifted classes begin

No teacher in their right mind would then cooperate with the mainstreaming of special needs kids to their class. The focus would shift from helping students to helping one's self to a better check.

[rucky]

42. It's based on improvement, not raw scores. n/t

[Sabriel]

9. This is a great incentive!

As a teacher, I would shoot for this extra pay by doing my best to raise scores. Never mind that my classes are loaded with low-income children who often suffer the cognitive effects of lead poisoning, inadequate pre-natal care, poor nutrition, lack of health and dental care...the list is endless. Fix THOSE problems, and "higher scores" will follow.

IMO, they'd be better off putting those pay incentives into Head Start and other pre-birth, pre-school programs. Oh, wait, I forgot...this mis-administration has cut funding to all of them.

[struggle4progress]

47. Well, teachers who teach kids from wealthier homes will get raises.

[pinerow]

10. Let's tie effective leadership to re-elections...oh wait...

nt

[SoCalDem]

11. Now watch for "pet" teachers to get the "best" students

and teachers they want to get rid of, getting the "troubled" ones...

and of course the tests will have to be :structured" so that there is always a way TO increase scores, or why bother with the "bonus" system..

I am in favor of merit raises, but this obsession with testing is shortchanging kids. Every kid gets ONE crack at an education, and so far we have cheated a whoile bunch of them out of their chance to learn things because we are always tinkering with the system.

We are exhanging "good" test scores for a well rounded education.

And all teachers will not be able to participate.. How does a phys ed teacher get higher and higher test scores?? or a special ed teacher? or an art teacher?? or a shop teacher? or a music teacher?

Teachers who teach subjects where "natural talents or physical attributes" come into play cannot ever hope to win in such a scheme..

As in most "new and improved" methods, the students end up losing..

and how many times now have we seen Texas or Floridas leading the way off that cliff?

[eppur_se_muova]

12. This is a huge disincentive to work in the Houston school system.

Only the masochists, the desperate, and those with a guaranteed inside track will apply,

The "free market" approach is not a subtle instrument, it is a club. You can beat people with it hard, or harder, but that's about it.

[hedgehog]

13. This is such a dumb idea. Tests don't teach kids, teachers do.

Here in New York State we had a great test system for over 50 years. Certain college prep high school courses were designated Regents' courses. If you took enough of them and passed a Regents' test, you got a Regents' diploma. The teachers knew what would be covered on the tests and they knew the format. The tests were a fair measure of how well the student understood the curriculum. It wasn't exactly teach to the test, but if the teacher covered the curriculum, good students students did well on the exams. Colleges and employers knew what a Regents' diploma meant.

Unfortunately, lots of kids never got a Regents' diploma. Instead of looking at the system, the Regents (New York's version of a State Board of Education) tinkered with the tests. They added proficiency tests at different grade levels. They altered the format of the Regents' tests. Now every year at last one set of Regents' test scores has to be tossed because every student in the state failed because the test focused on something that wasn't taught. Meanwhile, the kids that were in trouble before are still in trouble. Nothing has been done to ensure that every kid learns basic math and reading skills by second grade.The Regents broke something that was working without addressing the problem.

In my opinion, some kids need to be in primary classrooms as small as 10 with maybe two adults if they are going to succeed. These kids have to be caught early, because by the time they are 8 or 9, they're lost. It just seems that people would rather tinker with tests than spend the money on the kids. The sad part is that the testing systems would probably pay for putting the extra teachers into the primary grades.

[oneoftheboys]

15. I’m not sure if this paricular method will work,

but it seems reasonable to assume that some teachers are better than other teaches. Thus, the better teaches should receive higher pay. Am I missing something?

[hedgehog]

16. The problem is not paying better teachers more money,

the problem is using standardized test scores to determine which are the better teachers. How do you compares apples to oranges? Are you testing the teachers or the kids when one class is made up of healthy & wealthy kids and the next one has a lot of poor kids, a lot who don't speak English and a couple with learning problems?

[oneoftheboys]

21. I see your point...

and I'm not saying I have all of the answers. Still, there has to be a way to reward those who are trying to make a difference.

[Bridget Burke]

19. Test scores don't just depend on the teachers....

Home environment, school conditions & other factors are pretty important, too. Some children are harder to teach--should a teacher lose money for "wasting time" on them?

Yes, you are missing something.

[oneoftheboys]

23. So what do you suggest? Do nothing?

In my opinion, that's part of the problem. No one is willing to think outside the box. They just want to defend the status quo.

I might be missing something, but you are missing so much more.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Do you approve of No Child Left Behind?

The Test should not be the ONLY basis for judging a teacher's "quality."

How about smaller classes? Preschool programs to ensure students are ready--Head Start for all. Higher teacher pay--to begin with. Less administrative work so the teachers have more time to teach. No more Test--link merit raises to a more realistic measure of progress. And DON'T reduce a school's funding because of The Test. See that each student's special needs are met--whether they have a troubled home life, learning disabilities--or "giftedness" in some area.

HISD has a fine Magnet School Program. Many of the schools have entry tests & all have waiting lists. Excellence is possible--even in Houston. But the program is limited because money is tight.

Next, you'll remind us that we've been "throwing money at the schools."

[oneoftheboys]

28. No, I do not approve of "No Child Left Behind."

As far as I'm concerned, it's just another government program with a name that does not allow anyone to be against it.

I agree with most of your points. But let me ask you—do you think some teachers deserve to be paid more than others?

[Bridget Burke]

32. Yes, I think some teachers deserve to be paid more than others.

Clue: They already are. Seniority & education are two reasons.

But The Test is a piss-poor way of measuring a teacher's quality, or a school's quality.

[oneoftheboys]

33. Okay, let me re-state the question.

Do you think some teachers deserve to be paid more than other teachers based on their performance in the classroom?

I thought not.

[WinkyDink]

39. But the inherent flaw in logic is this: It is NOT

the "teacher performance" being rated; it's "student performance".
How is any one teacher supposed to have a lock on how to improve this SIGNIFICANTLY, in the statistical--aka, the $$$---sense??

[oneoftheboys]

41. So, are you suggesting...

that student performance is in no way related to teacher performance?

[Omphaloskepsis]

17. Oh man.. Now the teachers will be..

the ones trying to steal the test a few days in advance.

Wow.. This is wrong on so many levels.

[hedgehog]

22. Guess what -

They already are stealing the tests.

[RazzleDazzle]

27. Great! Can we make doctors next?

Don't get all better? Don't pay the doctor. Get sicker and die? Doctr pays YOU.

I think that could work.

:sarcasm:

[yasmina27]

40. I read somewhere

that they used to do this in China!

[wordpix]

29. these assholes don't know that low test scores are linked to socioeconomic

situation of the students. Fix the social/economic problems of families and you'll see scores go up. BUT---Houston wants silver bullet fix, not across the board attack of problems

[hunter]

30. Let's force the poor performers to drop out...

The kids I mean, not the teachers.

First day of school scope out the smartest bullies in your class, and then give them the test answers in advance in exchange for harassing the poorly performing kids until they drop out of school.

That's the way it works in the real world right?

Principals can play the same game, but in reverse. They can save money by giving their best teachers the crappiest classes year after year until they quit.

It's all about the competition, don't you know. That's what makes America great. It is God's Will that the scum rise to the top.

[sakabatou]

31. Test scores go up, thinking goes down

[trogdor]

35. Coding a minivan.

That's what they call it in computer science. Comes from Dilbert.

The comic is here. See if you can retrieve it without getting Animal from the Muppet Show.

http://www.flubu.com/comics/index2.html

[cmd]

36. Music, art, physical education, librarians; what about them?

Just how are you going to create a merit system that is fair to all?

[WinkyDink]

38. Too bad for the phys ed peeps!

Not to mention any OTHER subject not state-tested! This pay discrepancy is so CLEARLY ILLEGAL! And I speak as a former English teacher who would have had no fear of these ridiculous tests or teaching to them, for pay (I did have to get students ready for our PSSA, whatever the he** those letters stand for! HA!).

[rucky]

43. What's all this talk about "teaching to the test"?

A test shows the student understands what was taught. If you're not teaching to the test, then what value does it have? Are you going to put stuff on the test that hasn't been taught?

I think it's a criticism that hasn't been thought through very well.

I think - if the test is worth teaching to - national standardization of student achievement is a good thing. How else are we really going to know how student performance in one state compares to another state, much less one class to another, if every school/teacher/district are using different assessment methods? Now that's apples and oranges. And don't tell me that the US History kids learn in Florida is really that different from what kids should be learning in Alaska. Same goes for math & language arts. You CAN provide benchmarks of learning that all kids should know by the time they reach a certain grade.

How is this a bad thing?

[WinkyDink]

44. I think you misunderstand the phrase.

"Teaching to the test" means teaching how to take the mandated test. In the case of writing, I know, for I monitored it as well as "taught to" it, the PA. state test, it was ABSURD! True example: Read a passage on the penguin, then write a short essay on whether or not it's a bird or a fish. WTH?? Another real example: Write the instructions on how to play a tape-player.
In NO part of the writing section was any literature involved, in the sense of American or British Lit; it was strictly utilitarian.

All just for more cogs in the corporate wheel, or fodder for the military machine.

State-mandated NCLB tests are not teacher-made nor co-ordinated with textbooks; they are made by state committees (yes, with teachers on them, but not necessarily any who know the SPECIFIC grade/section taught works. Only in-house final exams cover that material.).

Oh, and every state test is different from the other. So that kind of precludes any state to state comparison!
What? You thought a Bushco plan MADE SENSE??

[rucky]

46. It wasn't really a "Bushco Plan"

most of it was cribbed off Democratic legislators (like Ted Kennedy) during the Clinton/Gore years (kinda like "homeland security"). Of course everybody had to put their grubby thumbprints on the legislation & it turned into the mess we have now. But it's the pursetrings - not the assessments - most of us educators have issues with.

Yes, the states make the tests from NCLB guidelines, but I still say that's a better national measure than what we've had up until this point (and I personally prefer it to be state-run). As for the PA assessment, what level was that for? It does sound pretty crappy. If the state tests are the joke you say it is, then there should be a visable disparity in reading scores between State & NAEP tests. Thank God they didn't include literature, because that would dictate what lit you'd teach in class. (That's my favorite part of teaching Language Arts, btw.) In Oregon, we had assessments created entirely by teachers. For Language Arts, for example, I didn't know what exactly was going to asked be on the tests, but I knew they'd be asking for expository, persuasive and narrative writing samples. OK, I can teach that without limiting my curriculum to some sanitized, nationalized, Bushacized text set.
What DID enrage me, however, was that one of my classes last year comprised entirely of English language learners, and although that was recognized in the scoring, it was pretty disheartening for most of my students to take a test they were destined to fail.

I'm in Ohio now & haven't seen a state assessment yet (but I'll be quite familiar with them in about a month).