Americans Find Being Fat Not Unattractive

[Moloch]

Thin is still in, but apparently fat is nowhere near as out as it used to be.

A survey finds America's attitudes toward overweight people are shifting from rejection toward acceptance. Over a 20-year period, the percentage of Americans who said they find overweight people less attractive steadily dropped from 55 percent to 24 percent, the market research firm NPD Group found.

With about two-thirds of U.S. adults overweight, Americans seem more accepting of heavier body types, researchers say. The NPD survey of 1,900 people representative of the U.S. population also found other more relaxed attitudes about weight and diet.

While body image remains a constant obsession, the national preoccupation with being thin has waned since the late 1980s and early 1990s, said the NPD's Harry Balzer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060111/ap_on_he_me/fit_fat_attitudes_1

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babylonsister]

2. Keith....

:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

Edit to add, I saw that BEFORE you edited it!

[rzemanfl]

6. Shame on me. n/t

[Pavulon]

3. ..and I'm pretty f'n drunk..

funny song Blood Hound gang..

[Born Free]

51. Hugging and Chalking ?

you were thinking of the lyrics from an old '40s tune that went something like this:

As I was hugging and chalking and hugging and chalking I met a guy coming round the other side and he was hugging and chalking, too.



PS: they play it on XM 40's, track number 4


Looks like the bush teams "War on Obesity" is the only thing they may get accomplished. I warned people about it when they had the big circus on the white house lawn - it was only a matter of time until the fat people were treated like smokers.

[Born Free]

141. lyrics to Huggin' and Chalkin'

1947
Performer Hoagy Carmichael
Title Huggin' and Chalkin'


I got a gal who's mighty sweet
Big blue eyes and tiny feet
Her name is Rosabelle Magee
And she tips the scales at three-oh-three

Oh, gee, but ain't it grand to have a gal so big and fat
That when you go to hug her, you don't know where you're at
You have to take a piece of chalk in your hand
And hug a ways and chalk a mark to see where you began

One day I was a-huggin' and a-chalkin' and a-chalkin' and a-huggin' away
When I met another fella with some chalk in his hand
A-comin' around the other way over the mountain
A-comin' around the other way

<instrumental interlude>

Nobody ever said I'm weak
My bones don't ache, my joints don't creak
But I grow pale and I get limp
Every time I see my baby blimp

Oh, gee, but ain't it grand to have a gal so big and fat
That when you go to hug her
(You don't know where you're at)
(You have to take a piece of chalk in your hand)
(And hug a bit and chalk a mark to see where you began)

One day I was a-huggin' and a-chalkin' and a-beggin' her to be my bride
When I met another fella with some chalk in his hand
A-comin' around the other side (over the mountain)
A-comin' around the other side


She's a mile wide!
(Chalkin' up a markdown and yellin' "No More!")
When I met another fella with some chalk in his hand
A-comin' around the other side (over the mountain)
Over the Great Divide!!

[ECH1969]

4. Americans become fatter by the year

thanks to McShiities and other like minded companies.

[KittyWampus]

69. Media trying to influence Americans... Lawsuits ahead for Fast Food Crap

it's coming.

Corn syrup, sodium, fat in fast foods are causing obesity and diabetes at ever increasing rates.

Like Tobacco, Fast/Junk Food Corps KNOW their product leads to disease and early death.

They purposely/knowingly use Marketing Psychology to manipulate children so kids think they "want" to eat their garbage. And the extreme sweetness/saltiness is ADDICTING. Once you eat garbage with tons of processed sweetener or sodium, it takes a long time for regular food to begin tasting good again.

And now, these garbage peddlers are in our schools. They pay (bribe) schools with money for sports programs to include vending machines in schools.

Rather then paying taxes so Governments can channel that money into helping schools afford gym class and athleticprograms, corporations either escape paying taxes or get subsidies and then use the improvished state of school system to their advantage by inserting their product into our school system.

Also, Fast/Junk food recieves tax dollars for subsidies. They lobby Congress to do nothing.

This is the THIRD article I have read in the last 6 months that indicate the Poison Food Corps are starting to try and influence Americans reaction to the coming lawsuits.

[Carni]

135. I hate to be an ass and argue/but disagree about the taste factor

I used to eat fast food daily and quite frankly it always tasted like crap IMO.

The only reason I was doing it was because I literally had no time to eat anything else at lunch.

I stopped that about a year ago when my job changed and not only did I lose about 20 pounds (without doing anything but ceasing to eat fast food)

I haven't missed it at all and find it even more repulsive that I did when I was eating it every day same with the corn syrup type bakery products/they taste God awful.

I agree though that fast food is killing people.

[KittyWampus]

161. Carni, people say the crap "tastes good" because they lack the words

to describe it any other way.

Perhaps what many REALLY experience is this:

this food produces chemical reactions in my brain that make me want to eat this stuff again.

And eating that crap regularly DOES degrade your ability to appreciate Whole Food. It desensitizes your taste buds.

Very much a drug.

[BrendaStarr]

168. Stress has been found to be a big factor in weight gain

This is something nearly everyone ignores.

Stress and not having enough time to get home early enough to cook a healthy dinner before the pangs cause a person to turn the car into Mc Jack King Wendy's parking lot.

Stress actually boosts cortisol dumping by the adrenals (No I'm not selling anything here or anywhere. I've studied this for my own purposes for decades.) Cortisol causes the body to store fat, and most likely none of the products out there really do a thing to stop that. Any chemical or herb singly or in combo that did would, like so many of our miracle drugs, either destroy the liver or the heart or cause cancer.

I take raw celery, broccoli, carrots, snow peas, apples you name it to work for the trip home so I don't get tempted, and I leave fruits on the kitchen table to help the kids for the hunger factor.

But stress is a huge problem in reducing weight and probably the reason that we have gotten so much heavier since the Reagan administration.

Another thing that has had a lot of press in the natural health publications and what I'm beginning to believe is the American's belief that they need to eat huge helpings of protein is also a problem.

Those big burgers have 30 or more grams, but I doubt the "pork chop" or even the boneless fat-less skinless chicken breast has any less.

I notice when eating at dinner gatherings at other people's houses that after the huge helping of protein and carbs comes the psychologially painful cravings for carbohydrates which friends quench with alcohol or ice cream showing the reason for their problems, but little helping mine.

Publications have reported that protein does take carbohydrates--so necessary for their antidepressant factor -- out of the blood stream. In fact it's insulin that does that when protein and carbs are hanging around together and you know where insulin stores that stuff--yep in fat--though the conjunction of protein and carbs in the blood also causes and upswing in immunity too so some of the protein and carb mixing is necessary.

If eaten with little fat (fat raises blood sugar according to a firm scientific report) no carbs or only the few carbs that come with a well done (fat free) vegetable dish. (Not the high starch ones) the cravings don't develop, I've noticed.

Some sources also say that low levels of carbohydrates cause cortisol dumps so there we are back with them after a typical "dinner".

I used to like looking around for recipes on the internet, but most of them are full of fat (and do not do well without that fat). I do think we just need to reteach ourselves about what is a good healthy 'dinner' lunch or breakfast.

So, I don't want to give aid and comfort to the fast food joints--read about about the too much protein (not to mention the fat in their cheaper food), and their healthier food are too expensive for most Americans to eat, even occasionally, but focusing on McBurgers isn't going to help much. They can claim that they have provided low calorie options.

I'm not a doctor. I'm just talking about what I've read and experienced. You must decide what is right for yourself.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/brst/

[Matariki]

146. yeah, not thanks to their own volition ;-)

[politicaholic]

5. People are often attracted to similar body types as their own...

because those are the people that will have sex with them.

"Oh, you like food too? We have so much in common. Let's watch tv!"

[Warpy]

7. Well, since overweight people are now the majority

this shift in public opinion is WAY overdue.

For a while, being overweight was worse than being in any other minority group you could possibly think of, including the retarded and the mentally ill, as far as social stigma went.

Folks, we really don't know what causes obesity and we really don't have a good treatment for it. Fully 90% of people who manage to tough it out and starve themselves down to a "normal" weight will gain all the weight and more back within five years. There really is no permanent solution, not yet. Stigmatizing people who are overweight as lazy, gluttonous, untidy, unattractive and worse was both stupid and cruel.

Now if people will only start to realize just how unattractive extreme thinness is, especially that extreme thinness that is attained through use of drugs or self abuse. There's actually a cure for that one!

[ECH1969]

8. So we should stigmatize extreme thinness

But, we shouldn't obesity? My view is we should stigmatize anything that greatly lowers someones live expectency regardless of what it is. Currently over 100,000 Americans die each year from obesity.

[reichstag911]

10. Well, are we talking about...

...Freepers' life expectancy? If we are, I say "load (or, in the case of stick figures like Ann Coulter, throw) up, boys and girls, we're way overdue for a good culling!" Yee ha!!!

[superconnected]

20. speaking of andy coulter

Anorexics are generally full of self-loathing.

Odds of a woman being 6' + tall, rare, odds of her being naturally bone thin -rarer. Models by a wide majority practice very extreme dieting to look naturally thin.

[Warpy]

14. Why stigmatize any of it?

Why on earth would anyone want to do that? Extreme thinness, especially when caused by self abuse, can be cured. Obesity can NOT be cured.

You find a cure for obesity, and then we'll talk about "stigmatizing." In the meantime, we can treat the too thin. We have NO TREATMENT FOR OBESITY.

Socially stigmatizing anyone for a MEDICAL CONDITION that they have no control over is WRONG, it's STUPID, and it's CRUEL.

[superconnected]

17. extreme thin cannot be cured in many cases.

It very often results in death. I'm not saying obesity isn't a problem, some is medical, some is mindset. The same goes for extreme thin. IMO Extreme thin is more dangerous than obesity because in many cases it kills you a lot faster and younger. How many severly obese 15yo's die a year, plenty of anorexics do.

There's a good reason pro-anna forums are banned from servers and constantly shutting down. When was the last time pro-obesity forums were? oh yeah, it's unlikely the forum directly killed someones kid by providing help and encouragement of super gorge diets.

[seleff]

36. Suffering dad

Have a 17 yo daughter struggling with anorexia for last 15 months. She's semi stable now, 5-2/5-3 and 95lbs (up from 75 at the worst)but it's been alot of work: 3-4 doc visits /week and 3.5 months inpatient. She still suffers (as does the whole family)but has managed to stay in school and do some sports (hoping to get a few pounds on to play Soccer this spring). With her diagnosis and history, there's a 20% chance she will not make it to her 22nd birthday. She still is morbidly afraid she will become (or is becoming) obese, and she thinks obsessively about food (which just drives her feelings of guilt).

[twenty4blackbirds]

39. {sympathy}

all the best for you and your family seleff.
maybe your daughter can study nutrition and stuff, so that she can better regulate her energy intake-output, and choose her best bodyweight. sorry I'm not helpful.

[myrna minx]

72. I am so sorry that your daughter is struggling.

It sounds though she has a wonderful family that supports her. My best wishes to you and yours. :hug:

[Katha]

96. I'm sorry you're going through this

I'm a 21 year old woman recovering from anorexia, and I can certainly empathize with your daughter -- and am very glad she's working hard to get better. Best of luck to her and to you.

[Nikia]

171. I am also recovering from anorexia

It is tough. Weight gain can be especially tough, aside from the basic issues of fear of food and weight. If we gain weight back too easily because of lowered metabolism, we fear that it isn't possible for us to eat like normal people without being overweight. If we have to eat a lot of food (although even normal diets can seem like a lot) to gain back weight because our metabolism kicks in and our bodies are repairing, we fear that we won't be able to stop eating a lot and will become overweight.
Good luck to you and your daughter.

[allisonthegreat]

50. I think we tend to forget

That obesity is linked to not only diabetes but heart attacks, pulmonary, and cardio vascular diseases...

[oneoftheboys]

61. NO TREATMENT FOR OBESITY...?

I think to cure to this one lies within.

[Nikia]

172. Obesity caused by compulsive overeating

Can be treated similiarly to anorexia and bulimia.

[eridani]

18. That's bullshit

Nobody dies from obesity. The original article that is constantly referenced made no such claims. Note that "assume" is the exact opposite of "prove."

http://www.opinions3.com/junk_science_about_obesity.htm

As University of Virginia Professor Glen Gaesser points out in the forthcoming revised edition of his book, "Big Fat Lies," the supposed source for this claim was a 1993 medical study that made no such assertion. That study attributed around 300,000 extra deaths per year to sedentary lifestyle and poor dietary habits, not to weight, which was not even evaluated as a risk factor. Indeed the authors of the study, Michael McGinnis and William Foege, became so frustrated by the chronic incorrect citation of their data that in 1998 they published a letter in the New England Journal of Medicine objecting to the misuse of their study.

A year later the New England Journal published an article that actually did assert that obesity causes approximately 300,000 deaths annually. This article, "Annual Deaths Attributable to Obesity in the United States," is a classic example of junk science at its worst. After calculating the death risk associated with various weight levels derived from six epidemiological studies, the authors employed the following assumption: "Our calculations assume that all excess mortality in obese people is due to their " (emphasis added). That was, to put it mildly, a remarkable assumption. As Mr. Gaesser points out, "the authors made no attempt to determine whether other factors — such as physical inactivity, low fitness levels, poor diet, risky weight loss practices, and less than adequate access to health care, just to name a few — could have explained some, or all, of the excess mortality in fat people."

In fact there is a great deal of evidence that such factors are far more relevant to mortality than weight. Indeed, long-term studies conducted at Dallas' Cooper Institute, involving tens of thousands of subjects tracked for a decade or more, have concluded that all of the excess mortality associated with increasing weight is accounted for by activity levels, not weight. These studies show moderately active fat people have far lower mortality rates than thin sedentary people, and essentially the same mortality rates as thin active people. In other words, adding just one variable to the mix — activity levels — eliminates fat as a risk factor (the activity levels associated with optimum mortality rates are quite modest — a brisk daily half-hour walk will by itself put a person in these categories).

[superconnected]

23. of course you're kidding.

do you only read reports that agree that stance and throw out the rest?

Many obese people are told by their doctors that they must undergo extreme treatments - ie getting their stomachs stapled, or they will not live much longer.

I worked with a woman who had the choice of doing that or die. Obesity brings on a whole lot of physical problems, just like extreme starvation does.

[megatherium]

26. I think there's a difference between morbid obesity and ordinary obesity.

The people who are getting their stomachs stapled are the ones who are morbidly obese, which I think everyone agrees is life-threatening. The interesting question here is whether people who are merely overweight are at increased risk to heart disease and the like, simply for being overweight (but otherwise active and healthy).

[eridani]

40. The fact that those operations make bux for the docs is irrelevant?

I don't think so. Your acquaintance's chances of dying from the surgery are higher than her chances of dying of anything related to her weight.

[superconnected]

95. I had no idea you were a doctor and new her situation.

If you weren't I'd consider your medical prognosis as completely invalid.

[eridani]

150. Her situation is that she is female, and 90% of these operations--

--are performed on women, despite the fact that men are just a likely to be obese as women. Your explanation for that is what, exactly? Don't men have the same medical problems?

[megatherium]

24. Any information on obesity and diabetes, among active obese people?

Just this week, the NY Times has been running an intense series of stories about the epidemic of diabetes in this country. From what they're saying, obesity is a primary risk factor if not the major cause of diabetes. (Something about how researchers suspect fat tissue produces hormones that interfere with the pancreas.)

[eridani]

42. Quite a bit

Just about any exercise program reduces insulin resistance, and the amount of weight lost (if any) has zero correlation with improvements in glucose control.

And your correlation is exactly ass-backwards. Being genetically diabetic is a risk factor for weight gain in adulthood.

[megatherium]

58. I'm not so sure about that.

We know obese people are much more likely to develop diabetes. We also know that relatively few thin people get diabetes even if they are sedentary.

I would be grateful for a link or reference for your claim that weight loss isn't correlated with glucose control. Is that in persons who are already diabetic?

[eridani]

67. Wrong

People who are genetically diabetic are much more likely to become obese. People who are not insulin resistant in the first place are much more likely to be thin. It's a real bitch tryiyng to find a journal article that you can read on line without paying through the nose. Here is a review of a non-dieting approach to sugar control

http://www.healthyweight.net/editor.htm#98-1

The diabetes specialists writing in this and the next issue of the Healthy Weight Journal take the new advice even farther. They call for stable weights and self-empowerment for people with diabetes, and say glycemic control is better and patients are happier.

These clinicians work on the leading edge of a new movement. They support diabetic patients in determining their own goals. They emphasize patient strengths and help them lead normal lives, without the stress and guilt that is frequently inflicted by more rigid methods.

Donna Ciliska presents convincing evidence that weight loss treatment has failed to help obese diabetic patients and causes worsening of symptoms for many. This is supported by recent World Health Organization studies that looked at diabetes in nine centers worldwide over 11 to 14 years and found, for type 1, the highest mortality rates in those at lowest weights, and for type 2, that stable weight appeared beneficial as reported in our May/June 1996 issue.

It is well known that calorie reduction causes instant improvement in sugar control. It should be obvious that if your system for controlling a glucose overload is genetically defective, then not challenging it with glucose will improve control. This effect precedes any weight loss; therefore it cannot be caused by weight loss. It is common for obese diabetics to become asymptomatic after a 10# weight loss. Now if obesity causes diabetes, that would be impossible. If you go from 290# to 280#, you are STILL FAT.

BTW, type II diabetics who are not fat have triple the mortality and morbidity of those who are. The reason for that is that they are unable to respond to insulin resistance by making a lot of insulin (which is what makes fat diabetics fat), so their blood sugars get way out of control more easily.

[megatherium]

98. I'm not prepared to argue with you, honestly.

But I would be a bit suspicious of these claims (that obesity by itself isn't a major risk factor for diabetes). The journal you just linked to was started by a nurse with a master's degree, promoting her theory that obesity by itself isn't the problem. I did a key word search on Google on "thin people" and diabetes. I get web pages that say "contrary to what the American Diabetes Association and your physician tell you..." I have to say this immediately raises my suspicions.

What we do know about diabetes is that we are having a huge new epidemic of it. And Asians who who have low rates of diabetes, who immigrate to the US and start eating like we do, get high rates of diabetes. This suggests it isn't primarily genetic, it has something to do with modern life styles. Either modern life styles cause obesity and that causes diabetes -- or something else in modern life styles case both obesity and diabetes. I understand that researchers suspect high-fructose corn sweeteners (now consumed in incredible amounts by large fractions of the population), and the complete lack of exercise of many people. I'm interested in the claim that it's the latter not the former that's the main problem; again, I'm not prepared to argue that point though I am a bit skeptical.

Anyway, thanks for the thought-provoking posts.

[eridani]

149. "something else in modern life styles case both obesity and diabetes"

Dingdingdingdingding! You have succinctly nailed the two explanatory hypotheses. In summary

1. Inactivity and poor diet -------->obesity ---------->diabetes

2. Inactivity and poor diet -------->obesity and also
Inactivity and poor diet -------->diabetes

There is not one single shred of evidence for the first, and plenty for the second. Start out with the well-known fact that if obese diabetics lose 5 or 10 pounds, many are able to control their blood sugars. Furthermore, this effect happens immediately, well before any weight loss. After the weight loss, they are still obese, but not symptomatic. Therefore, obesity does not cause diabetes. QED.

Type II diabetes and phenylketonuria are similar diseases, in that they are both strictly genetic but both can be effectively treated with dietary modification. PKU infants are put on low-phenylalanine diets until brain development is mostly finished. This prevents them from being mentally retarded. They are then out of trouble until they reach reproductive age, at which time women have to resume the low-phenylalanine diet if they become pregnant.

For diabetes, the equivalent of the low-phenylalanine diet is a lifetime commitment to daily hard physical labor on a semistarvation diet. Recommending this as public policy, though, is egregiously stupid, cruel and self-defeating. A better option would be the redesign of public space to make walking or biking as a part of daily activity much easier. Also, we could strictly penalize employers for requiring more than 30 hours per week of work, and impose higher taxes on junk food. None of those things would have any effect on the incidence of diabetes or obesity--what would happen is that fat people would weigh slightly less and diabetic symptoms would be postponed for many more years.

These are highly worthwhile goals, and focusing on obesity is exactly the wrong approach, because 250# people who reduce to 240# and control their sugars are automatically labelled as total failures. An example of a successful public health intervention is listed below.

http://www.stanfordheart.net/hr2t_GE_SJ.htm

There were significant improvements reported in nutrition, stress and exercise behaviors, while the reduction in the number of cigarette smokers was from 23 to 20. Significant reductions occurred in mean systolic (135 to 128 mm Hg; P < 0.001) and diastolic blood pressure (84 to 80 mm Hg; P < 0.001), serum total cholesterol (226 to 209 mg/dL): P < 0.001), LDL-cholesterol 149 to 132 mg/dL; P < 0.001), the total cholesterol/HDL-cholesterol ratio (5.9 to 5.2; P < 0.001) and triglyceride concentrations (192 to 173 mg/dL. Also, there were major shifts in the number of participants classified at high or very high risk at baseline to categories of low or increased risk at follow-up for each of these measures (see Figure1). Small reductions in body weight and fasting blood glucose were not significant.

So, we see that quite a few people had the self-discipline to dramatically improve cardiovascular risk factors, and also that this level of self-discipline had exactly ZERO effect on their weight or their blood sugar levels. That ought to tell you something about the utter worthlessness of weight loss as a public health goal.

[megatherium]

159. Interesting -- a couple of comments...

Your post discusses the situation for folks who already have diabetes. What's the situation for people who wish to prevent getting diabetes? Is keeping lean or keeping active what you want to do? That is, is there research out there that measures the risk of getting diabetes that separates the risk of being obese vs. the risk of inactivity?

Also, reading your quoted excerpt from the study I notice something interesting: Yes they had statistically significant decreases in cholesterol and blood pressure -- but these decreases weren't actually very large. ("Significant" doesn't mean large, it merely means, it actually happened and was not a change in the study that happened merely by chance.) Cholesterol from 226 to 209, for example, does not change one's risk for heart disease. It would have to drop below 180 or better yet 150 to make a real difference. So your point, that weight loss as a public health goal is worthless, would seem to be correct. (Especially given that this same study only got 3 of 23 smokers to stop smoking -- smoking is a devastating risk factor for heart disease -- and it had no success getting them to lose weight.)

But what I find fascinating are the research results of the cardiologist Dean Ornish. He knew that simply asking patients to only eat X and to exercise regularly wasn't going to have any positive results. So he designed a study where he fed his patients himself (they hired a chef), and also saw to his patients' exercise regimens, to ensure compliance. He fed them a very-low-fat vegetarian diet (also including non-fat yogurt and the like). Very low fat as in less than 15% calories from fat. He also had them do their favorite meditation exercises (praying, meditating or merely reading a relaxing book) every day. The results were dramatic. Cholesterol dropped to 150-180 in his patients, angina resolved for the patients who had that, and patients who could hardly walk without discomfort were walking miles a day. Most amazingly, there were measurable reductions of blockages in coronary arteries. Now Ornish knows it's mighty tough to tell patients, this is what you should do; few people have the strength to change their life style so dramatically. But he asks the rhetorical question: Why is this considered to be a drastic, difficult intervention -- and bypass surgeries and expensive prescription drugs are considered to be ordinary, appropriate interventions? Ornish faults the American Heart Association for being too timid in its dietary recommendations for heart disease (they ask people to eat less than 30% fat by calories, which doesn't prevent heart disease, he says).

[eridani]

162. Ornish is an utter disaster for insulin resistant people

A low fat diet raises cholesterol in thiIt is a drastic, difficult intervention for people who have to work for a living and want to pay attention to their families instead of navel-gazing. Exercise is by far the most important way to postpone diabetes and heart disease. According to the Cooper Aerobic Institute, it is the only factor that makes a difference aside from genetics.

http://www.newstarget.com/002556.html

low-glycemic menus allowed more fat -- about 30 percent -- than the low-fat, which allowed 18 percent fat.

http://www.swmed.edu/home_pages/publish/magazine/eats.html

Dr. Garg's research led to a major change in the American Diabetes Association's (ADA) dietary guidelines. The ADA's new guidelines now allow a diet rich in monounsaturated oils, as an alternative to previous recommendations to follow a diet high in carbohydrates. Dr. Garg found that a high-carbohydrate diet increases blood triglycerides and decreases high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL), the "good" cholesterol.

http://www.eatwild.com/articles/confused.html

At long last, in the mid-1990s, the first truly good news about fat began to emerge from the medical labs. The first fats to be given the green light were the monounsaturated oils, the ones that had helped protect the health of the Mediterraneans for so many generations. These oils are great for the heart, the scientists discovered, and they do not promote cancer. They are also a deterrent against diabetes. The news came fifty years too late, but it was welcome nonetheless. Please pass the olive oil!

Stearic acid, the most abundant fat in beef and chocolate, was also found to be beneficial. Unlike some other saturated fats, stearic acid does not raise your bad cholesterol and it may even give your good cholesterol a little boost. Hooray!

Then, at the tail end of the 20th century, two more "good" fats were added to the roster—omega-3 fatty acids and conjugated linoleic acid, or CLA, the fat found in the meat and dairy products of ruminants. Both of these fats show signs of being potent weapons against cancer. However, the omega-3s may be the best of all the good fats because they are also linked with a lower risk of virtually all the so-called "diseases of civilization," including cardiovascular disease, depression, ADHD, diabetes, Alzheimer's disease, obesity, asthma, and autoimmune diseases.

[megatherium]

164. Ornish didn't give his diet to insulin-resistent people,

he gave his diet to heart patients. And he acknowledges the beneficial role of fat in the diet (he says it should be olive oil and not animal fats).

Your first link is less than convincing. The author of the site (Mike Adams) seems to have no health or scientific credentials, says things like to avoid flouride toothpaste and only see naturopathic physicians, and he recommends following the advice of people like Dr. Gary Null (a marketer of nutritional quackery), and Dr. David Mercola (who was given a warning letter last year by the FDA concerning his claims that the nutritional products he markets can cure or treat diseases). But Adams is very good at bragging about himself (http://www.healthranger.org/).

[eridani]

183. Sorry, it's hard to get original articles

I find that I have to rely on mirror sites a lot. The reliability of a mirror site is irrelevant--the only thing that counts is the reliability of the original source.

Not knocking the Ornish diet for people who are not insulin resistant--it obviously helps. And he is wrong about animal fats. They are not all the same, just as vegetable oils are not all the same. Stearic acid, an animal fat, is good for you (particularly if you are insulin resistant), and palm oil, a plant fat, is pretty lousy.

[Missy Vixen]

99. Not true

>We also know that relatively few thin people get diabetes even if they are sedentary.<

I'm waiting for the study of the software industry and those working in it that now have Type II diabetes. If I was a research scientist, I'd be applying for grants as we speak. DH has been in that industry for over 20 years; there are a staggering number of those he works with (both fat and thin,) that now have the disease. We also hear about those at the Evil Empire that are now struggling with a host of other issues, such as lupus and Epstein-Barre.

If the study ever gets undertaken, I predict that there will be a huge correlation found between stress and immunosuppressive disease...

Julie

[megatherium]

160. Actually, obese people are 20 times more likely to get diabetes.

Please see http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/diabetes.html. So maybe thin people are getting diabetes, but according to this, not as much as their obese colleagues.

Your friend DH has been in the industry for 20 years, so perhaps he's in his 40s? I notice that diabetes guidelines suggest getting tested for diabetes when you are older than 45; my impression is that diabetes tends to appear in people of that age or older. (But there's an alarming increase in type 2 diabetes in children.) Stress might have something to do with it I suppose. Or else it's the special drugs they feed the workers at the Evil Empire to keep them docile yet productive.

[Nikia]

173. I have type II diabetes in my family, some of who were thin

My grandfather and several members of his family who are thin all have type II diabetes. Luckily, he took the advice of the doctor to heart and immediatly embarked on a very healthy diet and walked several miles a day until he could no longer due to arthritis in his 80s. He also cut smoking cold turkey that very day. He is 91 and is not blind and has had no amputations even though he has had the disease for over 40 years.
My other grandfather also had diabetes, which also seemed to be genetic though he and those members were somewhat overweight although not obese. He did end up dying of a cardiovascular problem although he also was a heavy smoker and had been since his early teens. His mother, a type II diabetic and non smoker, had no serious complications and survived to 85.
My grandmother also is type II diabetic, but does not have most of the members of her generation or parents generation with it like my grandfathers.
I know that regardless of what I weigh and how I eat that I will probably be at risk for the disease.
My husband's mother and her two brothers, one of who was actually underweight, have type II diabetes. Luckily, he is adopted.

[KittyWampus]

84. And just about any exercises program will be undermined by diet

that includes corn syrup and processed foods which negatively effect our body's ability to handle insulin.

Americans need to recognize the major culprit. The abysmal state of our collective diets.

[BiggJawn]

55. Yeah, I got it.

Doctor keeps telling me if I dump the ballast, I will reduce the amount of meds I have to take. So i ride my bike, but I can't stya out of the kitchen because that't the only thing that doesn't suck in m y life right now.

Fat produces hormones that screw with the pancreas? I haven't heard that. Where did you see that? I'm interested in reading it myself.

I was listening to Auntie Beeb the other night, and Diabetes isn't just an American Problem. It's world-wide, and the common factor is appearing to be obesity.


Kirstie Alley is looking pretty yummy, though. Seen her latest Jenny spot? Mworr!

[megatherium]

59. It was in the NY Times article on diabetes, on Monday I think. nt

[BiggJawn]

80. Thanks! I'll ask my friend...

You know, as in "Google is your Friend"...:)

NYT for Monday out to narrow it down.
Thanks!

[politicat]

120. Fat hormones and obesity: See UCTV.tv

There was a great series on obesity that is understandable for laypersons done at UC. It's available for webcasting. (I saw it on satellite while trying to walk off my excess weight....)

http://www.uctv.tv/search2.asp?keyword=obesity

[BiggJawn]

133. Thanks!

Looks like a LOT of intersting programs there.
Wish you didn't have top use RealSpyware to watch 'em.

[politicat]

137. Available on DISH (which is where I saw them...)

I can tape a couple of them off the DVR if you want to PM me your address and you have a VCR or a DVD player than can play burned DVDs.

[KittyWampus]

82. Nobody dies from smoking, either. It's the accumulative effects that

smoking causes. And if you don't die from smoking you may very well end up with various other serious maladies and most certainly will have more colds and tend to have longer bouts of influenza.

And just as Big Tobacco knew their product was addictive and lead to diesease and early death, just as they ADDED MORE addictive nicotine...

So Big Fast Food knows their products are addictive, lead to disease/early death. They market their crap to make people think they want it...and to accept it's existance in our food supply.

[0007]

143. Food is as addictive as any drug in my opinion. Probably more so.

[eridani]

151. True, but it's worse than that

I'm a multiple substance abuser myself. I'm addicted to food, water and oxygen.

[NickB79]

106. Study: Extra weight is a risk factor in itself

http://www.startribune.com/484/story/175641.html

"Findings show that people who are overweight but healthy run an added risk of fatal heart disease. The message: Extra weight may be a risk factor in itself.

CHICAGO - Middle-aged people who are overweight but have normal blood pressure and cholesterol levels are kidding themselves if they think their health is fine."

snip

"High blood pressure and cholesterol are strong risk factors for heart disease. Both are common in overweight people, and are often thought to explain why they are more prone to heart disease.

But there is a growing body of science suggesting that excess weight alone is an independent risk factor for heart attacks, strokes and diabetes."

This was just in the paper yesterday.

[eridani]

153. Another study with no actual controls

What about the following factors?

1. Income--fat people, particularly fat women, have dramatically lower incomes
2. Exercise--the Cooper Institute work indicates that obesity is eliminated as a risk factor if cardiovascular fitness is controlled for.
3. Access to health care--fat people are far more likely to be uninsured, and even if insured tend to delay or postpone doctor visits because of the abuse and humiliation they get for being fat.
4. Stress--closely linked to health problems. Fat people are under far higher levels of stress because of constant public abuse.

Studies that don't control for these things are worthless.

[NickB79]

165. Then why was it published in JAMA?

One of the premier medical journals of medicine and health?

The link I posted didn't discuss what their control group was. Such is common for newspaper articles on scientific research. Since it was published in JAMA, I'm assuming they had a fairly sufficient control group, or the study would have been disqualified for publication.

[eridani]

180. No, it would not have

The medical literature is full of bullshit about fat that reviewers would not tolerate on any other subject. In all the early hormone replacement therapy studied that showed correlation between HRT and lower heart disease incidence, reviewers were careful to state that prospectives studies had to be done because they were not able to control for self-selection of HRT users. Sure enough, the prospective studies did not confirm the original results. "Fat" is a magic word that instantly obliterates everything some scientists know about the critical role of controls. The JAMA article has no controls for any of the things I mentioned, althought they did control for smoking.

[rpannier]

44. Should we stigmatize sky diving and cliff diving?

They lower life expectancy because they're dangerous.

[meow2u3]

77. We should also stigmatize bigotry

Anyone with a negative attitude towards the plus-sized ought to lose his or her job, be kicked out of where they live, and told they don't belong in society :evilgrin:

[FlaGranny]

81. I vote that no one should be stigmatized

for their appearance, whether it be fat, thin, black, white, scarred, or . . . .

[AZBlue]

113. I second that!

...religion, sexual preference, tall, short...

What matters is who you are inside and how you treat others.

[shanti]

102. nobody's talking about extremes

obesity and rail thinness. fat acceptance has won.

[Tace]

11. Well, There Is A Correlation Between Eating And Weight

Just thought I'd mention that.

[superconnected]

16. not always.

Just thought I'd mention that medical fact.

[iamjoy]

27. Diet Is Only Part Of It

Somewhere I saw but don't remember the estimates on what portion of your weight/physique you CAN control & what is genetic programming, therefore beyond your control.

I have to wonder if the stereotype of the fat person always stuffing their face is almost as unfair as the black person looting, and just about as inaccurate, too.

I think, however, more needs to be done to encourage healthier eating habits for all Americans without being as concerned about numbers on a scale or clothing label.

[blonndee]

32. Again, not always. I'm not fat, but I'm a little overweight and I don't

eat that much (about 1400-1800 calories/day); in fact, I eat much less than many of my skinny friends! I also work out 3-4 times a week. The difference is that my biological family is ALL heavy. I basically have to STARVE to get and stay at a size 8, which I refuse to do.

My brother (not biological) eats ice cream, candy bars, steak, fries, anything he wants, and NEVER gets even a little overweight, and he doesn't work out, except a little weight-lifting here and there.

[Nikia]

175. And I will remain anorexic if I don't eat more

They aren't threatening to send me to the hospital anymore and I have been maintaining my weight for the past couple months. Unfortunately, it is still low and my dietician is upset with me that I can't manage to consistently eat enough to gain weight now. I tell her that it isn't fair that I am expected to eat so much because I know overweight people who are maintaining their heavy weight on less calories than me. She says that I am an active young woman so I need more calories.
It is weird being the opposite of most people.
No, they haven't found anything medically wrong with me besides stress induced ibs which they say shouldn't cause me to be like this. Part of my mindset is very much ED. I know that I am not naturually underweight. I have been much heavier than I am now.
I try not to judge other underweight people in my recovery mindset and assume that they have an eating disorder. Only they know that. They should be honest with themselves though about whether they are getting the nutrients that they need and whether they are eating enough calories. I am "naturually thin" when I eat 1200-1500 calories, but I need more like 2000 calories.

[politicat]

122. Not actually.

People under stress conserve calories in ways you can't even imagine. People who are placed on extremely low calorie diets can and do gain weight on those diets as their bodies make better use of the calories they do consume. There are several hormones at work there, namely the thyroid and parathyroid hormones, cortisol, leptin, and others.

It's a never ending cycle to fight - as you lower the caloric input, the body puts itself into a starvation mode, which means that it uses the calories more effectively, which starts the cycle over.

If you don't understand nutritional medicine (which most doctors don't understand), you really should reconsider your comment. (Try the series on obesity at uctv.tv to educate yourself.)

There's also a correlation between breathing and weight. Do you advocate withdrawing air from those who are overweight?

[eridani]

19. Abusing really skinny people isn't the answer either

At a size acceptance event back in 1993, a young Cambodian student gave very moving testimony about how lousy life could be when everybody in your family called you "Toothpick".

[TrogL]

112. you missed a few

"stringbean"
"beanpole"
"skinny legs"
"basketball player"
"how's the weather up there"
"how's the view from up there"

or the constant harassment from relatives demanding that you stuff your face.

When I can't take it any longer I just bellow (loudly enough to be heard down the block):

"SOMEBODY WITH A WEIGHT PROBLEM LIKE YOURS SHOULDN'T BE TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO EAT!!!"

I rarely get invited back. I've also probably been left out of a few wills.

[MindPilot]

178. "You gotta put some meat on those bones, boy!"

I know exactly where you are coming from. I spent my entire childhood trying to put on weight so I wouldn't get teased so much.

Now--40 plus years later--I just sit back and enjoy the show. Payback's a bitch.
:popcorn:

[megatherium]

22. One interesting theory for obesity, suggested by the China Study,

is that humans should be eating a diet that is almost entirely based on plants (animal products less than 10% of calories). People in regions in China who eat a plant-based diet are generally very lean, and suffer from much lower cancer rates than Americans, and suffer from very little heart disease and obesity -- even relatively sedentary Chinese eating this diet. I can't honestly say how much validity this theory has, but I've read the book Tghe China Study by T. Colin Campbell, and it seemed very credible. Campbell is a retired Cornell professor of biochemistry and nutrition who lead the China Study, the largest environmental study of nutrition and health ever done. In the study, they looked at dozens of locales in China, and collected data on thousands of individuals and their diets. (This was done with the cooperation of the Chinese government, which had a personal interest in learning what causes cancer. China was the perfect place for this study because the cancer rates vary dramatically from locale to locale in that country, presumably from environmental and nutritional factors.)

[iamjoy]

29. My Sister Is Vegan & Overweight

so, she eats no animal products whatsoever - hasn't for five years. She lives in DC so does a fair amount of walking. She still weighs more than I do. She had a problem with her cholestrol for a while too - on a vegan diet. I eat whatever the hell I want (lots of animal products), although for the past year I have been going to the gym 3 times per week. But, high cholestrol runs in the family and she has always been heavier than me.

So, methinks it is more than just what we are eating.

[megatherium]

33. Campbell mentions "junk food vegetarians"

although he described ovo-lacto veggies who eat lots of dairy in this way. Too many sweets? (Not meaning to accuse your sister of anything! But I've read that some vegans have trouble getting enough calories, so they end up eating too many sweets.)

Campbell says you need to be lean to get your cholesterol down, and he says eating a low-fat plant-based diet will cause your cholesterol to go down 30% or more in just a few weeks. He makes the primary, interesting claim that genetics is only a small part of the equation, it's mostly nutrition. But perhaps your family is the exception that proves the rule.

I myself tend to be thin whatever I eat, but I've found in the past that if I gain any weight at all (I'm 6'1" and usually 165-170 lbs), my cholesterol will pop up above 200. Campbell says cholesterol above 150 is no good, lots of people get heart disease between 150 and 200. If he's right I have to work on that; my cholesterol was 190 the last time I checked.

[eridani]

41. That advice is behind a large increase in diabetes

Low fat diets are disastrous for the genetically insulin resistant, and in fact RAISE their cholesterol levels.

[megatherium]

60. You are correct -- high carb low fat diets have been a disaster.

But the low fat diets that cause so much trouble end up substituting sugars (refined carbs) for fat. Several years ago the grocery stores were full of low-fat or non-fat goodies (cookies, crackers, ice cream, etc) -- which were loaded with high-fructose corn sweeteners. People started to eat lots of that stuff instead of high fat foods, and not surprisingly it didn't help them.

However, if you look at traditional plant-based diets, based on whole foods and which are low-fat and include plenty of fruits and veggies, you get very low cholesterol levels. (People put on that kind of diet, as described by Colin Campbell and Dean Ornish, experience rapid drops in cholesterol. E.g. from above 200 to below 150 in a matter of weeks.) You also get much lower cancer rates and heart disease.

So the key appears to be: lots of fruit and vegetables in a diet based on whole foods (with little or no dairy, and little meat or fish). Processed and junk foods are really bad. This is based on solid research (see The China Study by Campbell, or the books by Dean Ornish).

[eridani]

62. Fruit is really, really bad for people who are insulin resistant

Simple sugars are simple sugars, whether refined or not. Fibrous veggies are another matter, though many diabetics find that raw carrots will send their glucose through the roof unless eaten with nuts or cheese. Notions of "healthy" diets for people who are not insulin resistant are totally disastrous for people who are.

[megatherium]

66. thanks for the correction!

[RebelOne]

53. I am a vegetarian.

But I have high cholestrol and high blood pressure. I eat some dairy products, but only drink soy milk. My doctor told me to blame it on my genetics. I am not really overweight, but I could stand to lose 10 pounds.

[Coexist]

70. Some new vegetarians tend to eat a lot of pasta and cheese

until they are accustomed to, and learn to prepare, the better stuff. We tend to go with what is familiar. I have seen it happen a couple of times. Then they get better educated and learn to eat right without meat, and the weight comes off.

[Matariki]

147. my ex-in-laws were vegan

it doesn't automatically make you thin. in fact what i saw from them was a diet heavy in carbs - which a lack of protein can cause cravings for, which in turn causes sugar cravings.

[Coexist]

158. actually, whole grains have lots of protien in them.

Refined stuff doesn't.

[daleo]

35. What do these Chinese die from then?

If cancer and heart disease are way down, they should be pretty long lived (leaving aside contagious diseases).

[Coexist]

65. I've always found it interesting that people who eat no dairy

don't have brittle bones and teeth. I know this is a side note - but what is up with that?

I've seen so many photos of people who live on 40% rice their entire lives, and have beautiful smiles, and the older women don't seem as hunched over as American and British women. It boggles the mind.

[megatherium]

124. I gather it out vegans eat less calcium than people who

consume dairy -- but animal protein causes the body to excrete calcium, so vegans actually often come out ahead.

[Coexist]

125. interesting.

I didn't know that.

I am not vegan, but I know that green veggies have lots of calcium.

[lakemonster11]

157. So do almonds.

[politicat]

123. That's probably more of a genetic issue.

Genetics play a huge role in obesity and cancer. If your grandparents were thin, you're likely to be thin. That's just the process.

(Further, I'm not sure how much I trust any study coming out of China; we know that the USSR was not adverse to cooking their numbers, and that Korea did it, so.... science can be a political tool, just as not using science can be a political tool.)

Campbell may have come from Cornell, but there are a lot of questionable scientists out there.

[megatherium]

128. Campbell says the primary cause of modern degenerative

diseases of affluent people (heart disease, various cancers, even Alzheimer's) is nutrition, not genetics.

The China Study is regarded as the largest and best nutritional study of its kind. It wasn't just Chinese, it was directed by Campbell and other western researchers from top universities, and its results were published in top western journals and as monographs by top western publishers. Apparently the Chinese leadership were concerned about cancer after Chou Enlai died of that disease, and invited western scientists to do a study in China. They knew China provided an excellent opportunity to do this kind of research because people's diets differ substantially from one region in China to another, and cancer rates also differ a lot from one region to another (much more than in the US).

Anyway, I'm not really qualified to argue these matters. Campbell is a vegan proponent, and perhaps there's a whiff of true believer about his book. It did impress me though.

[NashVegas]

25. There Are People Who Want to

Rcently I heard a report on the radio (it was the "Medical Minute" with Dean Adell) that paraphrased a leading public health poohbah as saying that he thought it was time to take the same approach to the overweight that has been taken with cigarette smoking.

A campaign to stigmatize overweight people like what's been done with smoking is just a bad, bad idea.

[JackDragna]

34. I'm sorry, but we DO know what causes obesity.

Eating more calories than you expend. I'm sorry, but I've seen too much overweight apology here in this message board to remain silent any longer. We live in a society that makes high calorie food cheap and gives little opportunity for exercise given our hectic, crazy schedules. Still, this should cause us to have no illusions about why we're so fat. We can buy extremely fattening, high-calorie food relatively cheaply, but decent, healthy food is expensive. For five dollars, I can buy enough processed snack food to feed two healthy adults for a day in terms of calories. For the same price, I can barely afford a pound of decent fresh fruits or vegetables.

I am not trying to put the blame on the overweight here. The reality is that we have become accustomed to becoming a sedentary, overeating society that often can ill afford to eat the way it should. Americans should seriously push for healthier, lower calorie foods to be made more cheaply and made more available. At the same time, those who can afford a wider variety of food choices should eschew McDonald's for things that will fulfill their nutritional needs.

[llmart]

52. Exactly.

I think there are some cases of obesity that are caused by something out of one's control, but let's stop rationalizing about this. We eat TOO MUCH here in this country because it's become acceptable. If you're old enough to remember, people rarely ate out in the 50's and 60's - it was considered a treat. Now people eat out three meals a day anymore. And when you eat out, the portions are larger. People eat it all. If we make it more acceptable (and we have) to eat these huge portions, even brag about how big a restaurant's portions are, then we will have more obesity.

While I consider myself a strong, independent minded person who normally doesn't follow the crowd, I still see that over the years even I have gotten sucked into some of this thinking - you know, the "well, Jane Doe weighs a lot more than me so it's OK if I've gained 15 pounds over the last 20 years." It's insidious. The attitude creeps in when you're not even aware of it.

I rarely eat out, but I know I still eat more than I need to.

[Dulcinea]

54. Hear, hear!

So many people on this board are so quick to defend the overweight, but are perfectly willing to revile cigarette smoking. Except for people with medical problems that cause obesity, there is something they can do about their weight--eat less, eat better, & exercise more!

Of course, that diet will never be trendy because it's not a quick fix. It requires time & dedication, & changing your eating habits forever, not just long enough to lose weight.

[KittyWampus]

87. The Problem Is DU'ers Don't Realise The Role Advertising/Marketing

plays.

Americans are being manipulated by Big Fast/Junk Food.

Not just to eat the garbage but to ACCEPT IT.

1. Corps have people working for them determining best way to MAKE people buy their products. And they TARGET CHILDREN.

2. Corps are good at turning the debate towards Personal Reponsibility/Choice versus Acceptance. And at the same time turning the debate away from their own actions.

3. Corps know their products are addicting. Eating highly sweet/salty food effects our brain chemistry as well as our metabolism. JUST LIKE NICOTENE.

4. Corps are staring down the barrel of Class Action Lawsuits. Corps use corn syrup in almost every processed food. They use it now in food they didn't use it in before.

Remember, corn production is heavily subsidized in the US. And the bulk isn't going towards consumption as whole corn. It goes to corn syrup and feeding cows.

[TheBaldyMan]

92. you can eat as much as you want as long as you burn it off n/t

[Exiled in America]

97. Idiotic.

Yes, eating more calories than you expend causes one to gain weight. But the reasons for one's rate of expenditure of calories is the issue.

There are many factors that effect this, including many medical factors. It is possible to eat a healthy diet and exercise just as much as another person who maintains a trim figure and still be overweight. My mother for example is a pretty sick woman. She lives with several different conditions which both limit the amount of physical activity she is able to do and require her to be on several medications, many of which have weight retention (decreased ability to burn off calories) as a side-effect.

My mother doesn't snack, eats two light meals a day and has complete cut sugars out of her diet. She goes to the Y twice a week to swim which is one of the only kinds of exercise she can do regularly. She'd still be considered "obese" by the technical standards.

So - the reason for the "apologizing" around here, is because we're not idiots enough to make sweeping stereotypes. We're all well aware that many if not even most people overweight have no one to blame but themselves and their own personal choices. Choices not to eat right enough and exercise enough are the common cause. Everyone accepts this. The reason for the attitudes on this board is simple: as leftists we tend to be more aware of the minority and those ignored or lumped into some category to which they don't belong than other people. We're critical enough to understand that there are indeed numerous other factors that for some people - result in obesity that is not the result of lack of will power or personal responsibility.

And we also know what people like my mother feel like - when she is out in public, and on the surface looks like a perfectly healthy, capable woman - when they are constantly judged by people such as yourself for things that are really outside of their control.

Hell, in my own life I have been slightly overweight for a long time. I tried a lot of different things to lose the weight, short of quitting my career and devoting 8 hours a day to fitness and weight training. I changed my diet and stopped eating like a frat boy, but nothing really helped me loose the excess weight too much. I found that my daily exercise seemed mostly to just stop me from gaining more weight... until I found out through my doctor that I had an under active thyroid and got medication for that. Over the next year without making any new changes to my lifestyle I lost 35 pounds and I'm still losing weight. My body was puting me at an unfair disadvantage as compared to somemone perhaps such as yourself, through no fault of my own.

So... just remind yourself that no all people's situations are equal. The old "diet and exercise" meme is good advice for anyone, but it is not true that if someone is fat it is only because they're too lazy to do those things. There are sometimes other factors. Period.

[JackDragna]

136. I would argue your post is the idiotic one.

Obviously, there are factors that make people overweight, such as diabetes, that are beyond a person's ability to control. I do not feel the need to qualify exceptions to general trends in my arguments. You are adopting the argumentative style of attacking someone's argument because they did not deign to include every exception in the book, like the people who argue against the health risks of smoking because their smoking-like-a-chimney grandmother lived to be 102. You do acknowledge that most people are overweight due to personal choices, but then you remind me there are other factors.

You also assume, incorrectly, that I am some anti-fat-person bigot. This, again, is part of your logically fallacious demonization of my arguments. I have all the sympathy in the world for the overweight and the problems they suffer. However, I see an awful lot of very wrong and incorrect things being put on this message board, such as the equivocation with overweight people with ethnic minorities or the idea that most people have little idea what causes obesity. I've seen the the topic of the overweight come up several times on DU, and each time there is a vocal contingent of people who seem to advocate the position that their weight is completely beyond their control.

Ultimately, it comes down to this for me: it is no accident that the United States, with its abundance of cheap, high calorie food and poor sense of serving sizes, has the highest obesity and cardiovascular disorder rates in the western world. Yes, some of this is beyond the ability of people to fix themselves, but much could be improved if people were better informed and made better health choices for themselves. There are things we must do as a society, as well, such as spending our money on healthier foodstuffs and leaving the unhealthy food on the grocery store racks.

[Exiled in America]

140. I really don't see anything there that undermines any point I made..

?

[mitchum]

110. True, but it's hard to sustain a billion $ magic diet industry on those...

precepts. There's no "this year's voodoo" to sell.

[AZBlue]

117. Not in all cases.

My mother, for example. She has metabolism problems. Can't clarify it more than that because no doctor ever has been able to either. They've done tests, they've tried medications and diets, exercise - just can't figure it out. She eats like a bird, eats extremely healthy, doesn't drink alcohol, doesn't eat processed foods, eats lean meats and lots of veges, and so on. There's NO reason she should be overweight but she is - she is obese.

I want to point that out, not to dilute your post, which is very accurate about the disgusting food choices available today, but just to let people know that it's not always within a person's control, even if they can spend the extra money on good food and stay away from the junk.

And, yes, it is just horrible that a box of HoHo's would be cheaper than a comparable amount of fruit. What is wrong with this economic picture? How did it get this way?!

[KurtNYC]

127. Another factor is being explored with further studies

Diet Soda! (and sugar substitutes). They seem to break the body's reaction to sweet foods (the ones with real sugars in them). Basically the body wrongly learns from the intake artificial sweetners that not everything that is sweet requires certain digestive enzymes. The body then adapts to artificially sweetened foods by NOT triggering satiation. In other words, your body begins to perceive that sweet foods do not have as many calories as they do.

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/89/100381.htm

Clip: Sugar substitutes may offer sweet treats for calorie-conscious dieters, but a new study shows that they may also play tricks on the body and sabotage weight-loss efforts.

Researchers say artificial sweeteners may interfere with the body's natural ability to count calories based on a food's sweetness and make people prone to overindulging in other sweet foods and beverages.

For example, drinking a diet soft drink rather than a sugary one at lunch may reduce the calorie count of the meal, but it may trick the body into thinking that other sweet items don't have as many calories either...

[Moloch]

185. Thank you so much.

Fat people are fat because they just don't care.

Being poor is no excuse, there are plenty of poor people in other countries yet they don't have near the obesity problem that we do.

Nobody deserves to be ridiculed for their appearance, but I don't feel at all sorry for fat people. If they really didn't want to be fat, they would buy vegetables instead of whoppers.

[Dervill Crow]

190. I completely disagree.

When I'm sad or bored or angry or lonely, I am not going to reach for a vegetable. Maybe a baked potato with cheese sauce and broccoli, but comfort food tends to be unhealthy, and it just plain tastes GOOD, besides being quick and cheap. I gained all my weight when I was working two jobs, exhausted, and eating on the fly.

People who are blessed with fast metabolisms just don't get it. I have struggled with weight for the last ten years or so, and for our anniversary my skinny husband brought home a GOURMET CHEESECAKE SAMPLER for me. I love him dearly and would never tell him what a stupid thing that was to do, but I am completely appalled at how utterly ignorant and inconsiderate thin people are. If other things in my life are going well, it's easier to eat an apple and ignore the damn box of Krispy Kremes on the table. I've asked him not to bring crap food home, but his response is, "You don't have to eat it." :eyes:

[Samurai_Writer]

201. Then how do you explain fat vegetarians?

There are plenty of them out there... I don't think they are eating Whoppers...

[allisonthegreat]

49. good post n/t

[raccoon]

78. And some meds cause weight gain. nt

[FlaGranny]

85. Most people on prednisone

gain weight rapidly, without eating more. Hormones DO affect weight one way or another.

The survival of our species once upon a time depended on the ability to store fat. Humans who did not store fat did not survive. Now the entire human race, with a few exceptions, is genetically programmed to retain fat for the times when food is scarce. We are similar to bears.

We no longer need this survival technique, but who's to say that in 50 years, it won't again become necessary to our survival?

[KittyWampus]

79. We Certainly Know The Rise In Obesity/Diabetes Linked To American Diet

SAD= Standard American diet. Now including corn syrup which interfers with bodies ability to metabolize sugar. Refined Flour, high sodium and fat. Few vegetables. Sweetner.

So you have basically bought the spin of the Fast/Junk food industry. You think it's unfair to consider personal choice but personal choice is a factor and it's a factor that is being heavily influenced by advertising.

Americans are being brainwashed to accept processed foods with high corn syrup/salt contents. Corporations purposely MARKET their edible, poisionous crap. They use psychological research to figure out how to influence people's consumption. And they start WITH CHILDREN.

And once you begin eating that crap it becomes ADDICTIVE. Regular, healthy food no longer tastes good after you've had the garbage. And you begin needing more of it.

Consumers do in fact have a choice. But that choice is influenced heavily WITHOUT THEIR CONSCIOUS KNOWLEDGE. By advertising and the ubiquitious nature of the edible garbage.

Advertising IS black magic. It is literally making people desire things they normally wouldn't want. It leads people to buy things that are bad for them. It's caustive in people accepting things they ordinarily wouldn't tolerate.

[AZBlue]

111. Thank you! Well said! (nt)

[prole_for_peace]

9. i need to lose about 50 pounds and my weight is always a struggle

and i will never be "ok" with it just because other people are overweight. some days i feel better than others but i never feel as attractive as i would like to be.

[iamjoy]

30. Here Is What I Think

I am not a doctor, and this should not be a substitute for actual medical advice, it's just an opinion.

If you have insurance, go to your doctor & get an OK on an excercise program with the goal of improving your resting heart rate. Try to eat as healthily as possible with a goal of improving your cholestrol. Drink lots of water. Ignore your scale.

If you don't already, really take care of yourself. I have known a lot of heavyset women who I never think of as obese or even fat and one thing I have noticed is - they dress well. Hair, make up, jewelry, clothing, all nice. If there is some stigma with being overweight maybe it is because some see overweight people as lacking self-cotnrol and discipline. Not only can the right outfit help disguise extra padding, but it may help reduce that negative stereotype when people just see a well turned out woman.

[TroubleMan]

12. Cue up Sir Mixalot:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/wma-pop-up/-/B000062XAE001003/103-0986563-2787809


Honestly, I find women of all sizes attractive. Variety is the spice of life. My interests can never be pigeonholed into what I'm "supposed to like."

IMHO, this is a good thing. People should feel confident with themselves, and be happy with themselves no matter what size they are.

[TroubleMan]

13. Well, I guess it's time for me to buy this shirt:

[Warpy]

15. HAHA!

I like his style.

[superconnected]

21. I like his shirt but I can't look at that and not consider

that he probably has a hard time with physical demands like stairs. I also think that is probably not doing his heart any good, and he probably has a really bad time when he goes to movie theatres - the seats, or sports events, as well as fitting into cars. He could also have a hard time buying clothes.

I hope he actually is in good health. And I actually do prefer that to him being severly underweight.

[Benbow]

56. When, do you think, he last saw his todger?

In fact, I bet he can't even reach it.

I could never, ever fancy someone that shape, no matter how nice their personality.

[JudyM]

177. Todger? I can guess from the context, but it's a new one on me! n/t

[Northwind]

28. One thing not being mentioned...

Excess weight tends to be more accepted in times of economic distress. When you look at poor societies, you often see larger people being considered more attractive. The correllation we seem to make instinctively is that a person with a few extra pounds must be more successful because they can afford to not only survive, but can indulge.

A very big explosion in extreme facsination/obsession with thinness took place during the economic boom of the Clinton years. Now that Bush has destroyed that, we are seeing a reversal of the trend.

Mind you, this reaction does not take into account things like dollar menus laden with fatty foods. It is programming from a time when such things did not exist.

[JI7]

37. i'm not sure that's true in america

it seems to me that the thin tend to be those better off financially because they can afford costly food that is healthy while also tasty. and the poor often have to eat cheap fatty foods as you mention with the dollar menus.

i think it might more be a case of the Clinton years being mostly good times with people spending so much time and money on vanity. with Bush there are so many problems we are going through that people are starting to see what really matters or what they really value. with people dying as a result of 9/11, war, katrina etc.

[onecent]

31. Don't forget - fat people get horny too. n/t

[killbotfactory]

38. What do they consider overwieght?

Because if you ask most people in the entertainment industry, anyone who isn't borderline anorexic is "fat". If you are a woman, that is.

[Nikia]

170. I wondered that too

Entertainment magazines often refer to female actresses as overweight if they are about mid range BMI for their height. I've seen people comment that women wearing size 8 are overweight. Obviously there is a difference between someone wearing size 8 and who weighs 300+ pounds.

[Imagevision]

43. HEY! LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO ELVIS...!

[XemaSab]

45. There's a difference between being chubby and being HUGE

I agree that being 400 pounds is unhealthy for anyone, and widespread "acceptance" of that isn't likely. However, there are many women who are 150, 175, or 200 lbs who aren't huge and who look good, and I think it's great for society to be more welcoming of that, since it's what real women actually look like. I'm never going to be size 2, and frankly even when I was "skinny" for me, my hips wouldn't let me in anything smaller than a size 10.

Also, all this shit that says poor people can only afford to eat shitty food and healthy food is too expensive, it's just a bunch of shit. Vegetables are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY cheap. For 10 bucks you can get enough fresh veggies to eat GOOD for days on end, especially bolstered with beans, potatoes and rice. I think many poor people eat shitty food more out of ignorance than sheer poverty.

[AlienGirl]

46. Not just ignorance--fatigue

If you have been working ten hours straight on your feet at some mind-numbingly-boring job and you have a choice between a $1.00 box of mac-n-cheese that takes ten minutes to prepare or $1.00 worth of fresh vegetable ingredients that must be chopped and brown rice that will take a half hour to be done cooking, the mac-n-cheese starts looking really good. Of course, the low nutritional value of the food eventually adds to the fatigue problem--but hey, it gets you full for a while...

Tucker

[XemaSab]

47. Discovering microwaved vegetables was an epiphany for me

3 minutes in the microwave and the broccoli is PERFECTLY done. :D

That aside, there's a lot to what you're saying, but I don't know that middle class and rich people don't come home tired either. :P

[meow2u3]

83. Poverty also contributes to obesity

Especially when all the "healthy" foods are too expensive for a person on a low or fixed income to afford, let alone prepare. Poor people need to eat, too.

[KittyWampus]

91. Beans and Rice are very inexpensive.

[KurtNYC]

130. In historic terms, ALL food is very cheap now

I know that poverty correlates with obesity but I don't completely buy the idea that good food is expensive while junk is not. The mark-up on junk food is much higher than on unprocessed foods:

5 ounces of Lays Potato Chips: $1.99
5 ounces of russett potato (suitable for baking): 22-cents (@ 69-cents/pound)

McDonald's Supersize Coke: $1.49
5 ounces of sugar & 31 ounces of water: 16-cents

Pint of Hagen Daaz: $2.99
6 oz cream, 6 oz milk, 4 oz sugar: $1.12

My point is junk food is heavily advertised and promoted because there is a big profit margin on it. The idea that "good" food costs even more than junk helps promote junk food and doesn't seem to be true (especially if you add in the health care costs).

[madmark]

48. the survey responders are experiencing cognitive dissonance

[Karmakaze]

57. Some of the people on here disgust me...

As far as I am concerned a lot of the people here may as well have said "people are too black" or "people are too female" or "people are too jewish" Sickening that ANYONE would think it is acceptable to belittle anyone else for ANY reason, be it weight, race, age or sex. Each one of you arseholes who think you can look down your nose at fat people is a total bigot, no better than racists or sexists.

What business is it of yours how anyone LOOKS? Why do you care if they are fat? Does their mere weight mean they are somehow subhuman, and should be reviled?

Screw you.

Hey, I know, why don't you go find some fat people to pick on and mentally scar for life? After all it's not like they're people or anything, right?

And before you go talking about "health effects", let me just say right now, BULLSHIT!!! How their health is affected has NOTHING to do with you at all, so why should you care about that? Worried you might catch fat? Wake up one day with a bad case of obese? Give me a break. That is just a veiled excuse for bigotry.

Each one of you who defends that kind of attitude can go to hell.

[bleedingheart]

63. my cousin died due to morbid obesity

yep...it had nothing to do with me but boy it has had lasting effects on the family.

A great cook, a good mother, a good friend and so funny she should have been a stand up comedian...and she is now dead due in part to her weight.

Her daughter is 37 years old, rarely leaves the house now and is fighting to get on disability because she can't be treated for her broken hip because of her weight. No physician will operate on her to fix her hip until she loses weight because of the risks. (that is really pretty sad)....so the hip fused incorrectly and she can walk some days and others it is just too painful....and she sits in her house with her father...should we watch her die too? Tell me? I really want to know...because her family and extended family love her but no one wants to be mean and tell her the honest truth that if she doesn't get control of the situation she may not live to see 40.

[AlCzervik]

64. i'm sorry to hear all of that, obesity can lead to some severe health

problems or exacerbate existing ones. I could care less what someone looks like, maybe that comes with getting older, but it's not an issue for me. I've struggled with my weight my entire life and i know how hard it was for me to lose 65 pounds, i imagine when you need to lose 165 pounds it must be so overwhelming. I hope you cousin? gets some help.

[Coexist]

68. That is so sad

I have some relatives, who, over the past 10 years have gone from "chubby" to "obese". One now has trouble climbing stairs and has been put on several meds. It is a sad thing to see. She used to be very active, and has replaced the garden she used to love with grass, because she can no longer care for it properly (bending and standing).

[AlCzervik]

71. i have a very good friend named Julia, you would love her

i swear to god she is about the nicest person on the planet, anyway she is very petite, 4'10 and she was very heavy 280 pounds and i was very afraid we were going to lose her. Julia had some big health problems and she was using a breathing machine at night, she had a big scare and that was it, she started to change her life style and i'm happy to report she's lost 125 pounds, the majority of her health problems have eased up almost 100%. I met her in San Francisco this summer and i started to cry when i saw her.

[Coexist]

74. That is awesome.

This particular relative now has some type of breathing machine that she drags out when she overexerts herself. I don't quite know what it is, and feel it would be an intrusive question that she might be embarassed about.

I hope she can change her lifestyle like your friend Julia. Her children bought her an exercise bike after she was recently hospitalized, so I hope she is using it!

[AlCzervik]

76. i wish her the best of luck, i hope she can get healthy.

[bleedingheart]

75. i grew up in a family that was very accepting of everyone

so what is really hard is that no one cared about either the mother or daughter being heavy...but when her mother died it became all to clear that the daughter might suffer the same fate and that really scared all of us...but then what do we do? How do you say..."we love you...we care for you and accept you...but we are really worried...??" without coming across as mean?

by the way...her disability has been turned down each time...it is in appeal again. She can't work because she can't stand for too long...because of her size and medical problems...I am sure that she can't find any other work because of discrimination and because of her limitations...so it makes a bad situation even worse...

[Karmakaze]

104. Look I am not saying you should not have felt bad about what happened...

But would making her life miserable while she was alive have prevented the outcome? Maybe. Would it be worth it? Does your experience with your cousin justify you punishing every fat person? Would that make you feel better? I'm sorry for your loss, but some of the attitudes expressed in this thread have TORTURED fat people for much of their lives.

Do you feel humiliation, degredation, and dehumanisation of fat people is justifiable because it may prevent some people from dying sooner than they otherwise would? Do you not feel that the mental and emotional torture enacted upon fat people may actually be WORSE for their health, both mental and physical, than their weight?

Have you thought that maybe humiliation and degradation and dehumanisation is NOT the best method to encourage someone to lose weight? That maybe those things do the EXACT OPPOSITE, while making their life even MORE MISERABLE?

I hope your cousin's duaghter is able to overcome her weight problem and live a long and happy life. But most of all I hope she lives a HAPPY life - free of degradation, humiliation and dehumanisation. I'm sorry to say, as the attitudes expressed by some in this thread show, that is not a foregone conclusion.

[Beausoir]

107. Beautifully stated.

I could not agree with you more.

The hatred and bigotry of people never ceases to amaze me.

I'm fat. Get over it.

[bleedingheart]

109. I am not picking on anyone...nor I am justifying cruelty

I only feel sorry for my cousin and wish (keyword is wish)...that she would get help. There is no excuse for people being mean to one another no matter the problem..

BUT...when I see a woman who is one year older than me not able to even walk across a room without help or without breaking a sweat...I do feel sorry for her because of what she is missing and because I know the rest of the world is not sympathetic...and that it makes her life all that much harder.

[Karmakaze]

114. Let me just say I'm sorry if I sounded cruel to you..

I did not mean to be, but I have been overweight much of my life even though I was actively involved in many sports when I was younger (although I am not so active nowadays thanks to my chosen profession).

The treatment I have suffered throughout my life has been, I feel, every bit as degrading and dehumanising as that dished out to blacks, gays and other "outcasts". I have been phyiscally attacked, emotionally and mentally abused, and to this day I dread eating ANYTHING in public because of the looks I receive and the comments I overhear.

Sure I could do more to control my weight, but I have come to terms with the fact that I will never be the "perfect" weight without becoming as obsessed with body image as has driven many people to starve themselves to death. It is just not gonna happen. So I have learned to live with the comments and the looks and the fact that even buying clothing is a struggle purely because clothing that fits me is either unavailable or many times more expensive than even extra material costs can account for.

But I am sick of the bullshit. I am no longer ashamed of myself. I am no longer afraid of the "thin" people and what they think of me. And I for damn sure am not gonna sit back and let self righteous arseholes who have no idea what it is like to be me, judge me purely based on my weight, without calling them on it.

I know where you are coming from and I sincerely do hope that your cousin can overcome her weight to live healthily and happily. Just please, do not think that shaming her into weightloss will EVER work. It won't, and it hasn't, because you can be damn sure all of society is doing just that.

On edit: I just wanted to add that I am male, and the treatment I have received is better than a fat woman would have received throughout her life. Although maybe not by that much, it is still far worse to be a fat woman in a society that puts a nearly anorexic woman on a magazine cover and says "Is she getting fat?" - and yes I HAVE seen magazines as recently as last year with such an abominable statement on it in reference to a celebrity. What made it even worse is that no one I know who wasnt fat even thought twice about it - except maybe to agree that yes, she was looking fat.

[eridani]

154. But they'll cheerfully do weight loss surgery on her

Just as risky as any other kind of surgery. Might this denial of treatment have something to do with the extra health problems that fat people have?

[nodehopper]

129. I wish people weren't overweight

the same way I wish people didn't smoke and didn't drink themselves into cyrrhosis of the liver. I understand that all of those are social as well as individual predicaments, but how can you conflate a health concern and racism or sexism? Can I say that someone drinks too much, or smokes too much? This does not mean I discriminate against them, but merely that I am able to assess certain things about their lifestyle that are not optimal, health-wise. "Race" is a non-category from a biological point of view. A "healthy body," on the other hand, is something that is biological, as well as social. I don't think that myself or anyone else who wishes that a healthy body type was more prevalent in our society is necessarily bigoted or things that weight means people are "subhuman." I don't think eveyrone should be size 6 or a model, but I also don't see why I should I should not be able to point out that obesity (not when someone is full-figured, or chubby, or zaftig, or voluptious but OBESE) is a health issue, and I wish that there was a better social infrastructure for treating it like the cultural health problem that it is.

[eridani]

156. What in fucking hell are we supposed to do about it?

We live in a society where 95% of the work is sedentary and there is enough to eat for most people. That fact is just as impossible to change as the genes that evolved when life was much harder. OK, not absolutely impossible. Fat people could always move to Rwanda, but I'll guarantee you that won't improve their health or their life expectancy at all.

[nodehopper]

169. Americans lead unhealthy lifestyles by and large

I think on a social level better nutritional habits should be instituted from childhood on, certainly in kindergardens and schools, and I don't think the current institution of "gym class" works to instill in people a love for regular exercise. If the person is obese, nutrition and treament programs should be covered by health insurance and shouldn't have to come out of the person's pocket.

I understand that certain factors, like workplace and genetics are beyond people's control, to a degree. But my response to the article was--to some extent there are individual lifestyle choices people can make (that would be better enabled by the kind of changes I reference above). I think that backlashing against the anorexic-cultural-ideal with the ideas of "fat pride" or "BBW" creates a subculture that validates physical conditions that are often unhealthy, because of how identity politics work. While I can see how a 300-pound woman believing that she is beautiful and fine just the way she is, is a powerful image and is good for self-esteem, I don't think it's good for overall health.

I wish the attitudes in society weren't such that they would require such a backlash, in this form, and I understand how it comes about, but that doesn't mean I can view it as a positive force, full-stop.

[eridani]

182. All the changes you recommend are good things

However, their effect on the incidence of obesity will be zilch, zero, nada. What will happen if they are implemented is that fat people will weigh less than they do now. They will still be fat, and will still need "fat pride."

[nodehopper]

187. and if that happens

then I will whole-heartedly support "fat pride" as an unambiguously positive thing that works only to promote self-esteem and not make overweight people invisible, rather than also validating staying unhealthy, which it seems to me it does do as it stands right now...

[NuttyFluffers]

204. i wish people weren't arrogant pontificating neo-puritans, either...

such behavior tends to lead to destruction of healthy social organization and support, institution of punitive codes -- often degrading to the point of draconian, and acceptance of sociopathic bigotry against the 'other'. and yet, the same ol' tools of oppression still can catch people unawares, generation after generation.

not singling you out at all, in fact i believe your heart is in the right place. i'm sure you don't feel legislation of punitive laws and encouragement of cruel behaviors is the proper method of helping these people. but we must all be aware what a dangerous line we balance on whenever any of us indulge ourselves in our inner crusader/jyhadi/zealot. and that's what i think prompted the outburst from the previous poster -- a call out to shame all the happy dancing with our inner bigot. and that outburst is justified too; destructive behavior needs to be called out on before it gets out of control. but whereas some issues, such as self-destructive behavior, need love and positive reinforcement, other issues, such as neo-puritanical behavior, tends to be best checked by public shaming and negative reinforcement.

it is hard to do, but the first battle that must be fought and won is the evil within ourselves. some wear their battle scars on the outside, obesity, drug addiction, disillusionment; where others have them discreetly hidden, sometimes even from themselves, and often fall into the indulgence of their lesser selves, thoughtlessly exalting in their inner bastard.

[LostinVA]

131. You need to chill

I don't give a damn how ANYONE looks, I just care about people's health. And being obese is bad for you. That is a fact. It will make you live a less full, sick, shorter life. I'm not talking about someone who is a size 16 here... I mean obese. Of course it has something to do with us! American children are growing up unhealthy. They need to eat better, be more active, and lay off the soda. Part of this is the school's fault, and thus the taxpayers. WE need to make sure our kids get at least two good meals a day -- and both can be had at school. I see these kids all over the place, and it's sad, because it is an epidemic, and these kids may always have health problems because of this.

Your "logic" in your post makes no sense -- people aren't doing what you're accusing us of doing.

I think you need to apologize to people on this thread -- I saw very, very few posts that could be construed as bigoted.

And, I';m not thin. I never have been and never will be... ever. I have a slow metabolism that slowed even further when I quit smoking. But I eat healthy, exercise, quit smoking, and am healthy at 41. I wish everyone was healthy, I wish everyone had health care and enough money to eat good, wholesome, "yummo" food. I wish everyone felt good about themselves.

Geez.

ON EDIT: I have a very bad stutter when I have to public speak, or when I meet a group of people for the first time, OR when I talk to a stranger on a telephone. So what, you say? THAT is also humiliating, mortifying, etc., and has caused me to blow job interviews,a nd to not even apply for certain jobs. Speech therapy doesn't help it. So... trust me... I know what it is to be snickered at, pointed at, and made fun of... especially in high school.

[calico1]

73. As the population in this country gets

more and more overweight and obese, we get more used to seeing overweight people in society and less used to seeing what is a healthy or normal weight. When I was a kid I remember there were maybe 3 overweight kids in my whole school. In most schools today the majority of kids will be overweight. Its more common so people get used to seeing it. What you get used to, over time becomes "normal." Years ago a woman wearing a size 14 would be considered overweight. Today, most people consider it normal weight because its such a common size. The point at which people are considered "fat" keeps getting higher and higher and people keep losing more and more sight of what a healthy weight should be.

[Little Star]

86. I'm serious.

When did just fat, chubby, etc. become obese? Me thinks that the insurance companies are at it again. I only consider my self chubby. So there!

[FlaGranny]

89. Have you seen that commercial

for the diet program, forget which program, the one where they show you all the before and after? The latest one has a women on it bragging about going from a size 10 to a size 2 (I think those are the sizes). She looked 100% better to me as a size 10. Under those clothes, her ribs, hips, and collar bones probably look skeletal.

[bleedingheart]

101. I do not believe those commercials....sorry they are just a ruse

I am about a size 12...but that varies on pants, skirts...etc...

When I was at my thinnest...I was a size 8 (I was in great shape from biking)...I could wear a size 4 skirt if it was a flared skirt...because I had a thin waist...but there would be no way in hell that I could have fit into a size 4 form fitting skirt...because....it would have required the removal of bones and muscle to fit into it...I think they advertise falsely because they don't tell you what size 2 item she now fits into....hell it could be a size two scarf....

Now I do have to lose weight currently due to blood pressure and back problems...and I am doing my best to change my lifestyle...but that is for my own health...not to please anyone.

[schmuls]

105. They always say "results not typical" as well

[AZBlue]

118. When did size 10 become fat??

I haven't seen that one yet, thankfully!

Aren't women supposed to be curvy?? I'm not using that as a euphemism for overweight - I just mean that boys are straight up and down and women are hourglass shapes.

[Bridget Burke]

88. If this means extreme thinness is going out of fashion--OK!

Except for those who are naturally that way. It can be hard for them to gain weight. And anorexia/bulimia can kill.

The truly obese need compassion & medical help. How many health plans offer nutrition & exercise counseling? What if you don't have health coverage? I've known ladies who had "surgery" & that's NOT an easy way out.

Myself, I'm trying to hold the line. Adults are NOT supposed to keep outgrowing their clothes!

I would not berate anyone about their weight. However, as far as "attractive" goes--"wiry" through "husky" are OK but I do have certain parameters.

[FlaGranny]

90. Healthy looking is my parameter.

:-)

[Bridget Burke]

93. Good! And dressing for your body type can help.

For example, why do so many guys who have a bit of a beer gut tuck their shirts in & pull the belt really tight--to emphasize the bulge?

[FlaGranny]

94. I've got the healthiest looking

daughter-in-law you ever saw. She might be considered slightly overweight (height/weight ratio), but she does Kung Fu regularly. She is strong, fit, and healthy, and she looks it. I think she's gorgeous.

Edit: There is no way you could call her fat, though.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TrogL]

103. You should see one of the recent Sunshine girls

Major love handles

http://www.edmontonsun.com/SUNshineGirl/Monday/home.html

[Zodiak]

108. And she looks great

I love a goodly amount of flesh on a woman. My personal taste.

[LostinVA]

134. THose aren't love handles at all

That's just a "normal" sized 18-year-old.

And yeah, she's cute... but since she's only 18, I feel guilty for thinking it...

[In_The_Wind]

115. There is nothing wrong with a few extra pounds.

If it doesn't adversely affect the individual's health.

[PretzelWarrior]

116. more cushion for the pushin'

okay. bad taste. I don't like women that are too large...but don't mind a little extra baggage.

[AZBlue]

119. This survey shows that it's just become less acceptable to criticize fat

It's just no longer PC to make fun of or stigmatize overweight people. But they still think it. They may not admit it on this poll, but it's still there, they are just too embarrassed to say it out loud.

Trust me. I've gained weight and am currently obese. I'm an otherwise fairly attractive person (according to others) with a decent brain and personality. When I was thinner I had lots of dates, lots of attention from men, more female friends. Now....well, at least I know who my real friends are now. I'm currently dieting and exercising and losing weight, but this experience will never ever leave me.

[phrenzy]

121. Being 'Fat' Is Way Too Subjective

This conversation is kind of pointless without a true definition of 'Fat'

We can all agree, what runway models consider 'Fat' (current Tyra Banks) is ridiculous. We should also be able to agree that the guy pictured earlier in this thread ("i beat anorexia") is WAY over the line. While the girl in the pic from the link is NOT fat.

I think the point is, if you are so overweight and it is causing you health problems, then obviously you should do yourself a favor and do something about it. The principle is simple. Create a calorie deficit. Sure, some people have humming bird metabolisms and can stuff their face (although that can do a 180 with age, as I discovered) - But if you spend more calories than you consume you WILL lose weight. It's that simple. There are certain types of healthy foods that digest slowly and leave you feeling full for longer.

Anyway, the fact that I tend to like skinny small girls doesn't mean I'm going to be mean to overweight people.

[nodehopper]

126. I'll probably get flamed for this

But I think biologically we are wired to find "healthy" things attractive--i.e. things that are signals that we are viable mates, we can provide, and we can produce and take care of healthy offspring. Of course, cultural norms superimpose over some inherent biological proclivities, as enculuration is as a powerful force, but I think a healthy body, as an evolutionarily attractive entity, is very far from either the anorexic model ideal circulated in American culture, or the overweight-to-obese spectrum that a lot of Americans fall into, and reclaim as a positive aesthetic through identity politics of things like BBW, "fat power," etc. while this makes sense as a social trend, I would rather a healthy body type was promoted, than have there be a welcoming of an unhealthy aesthetic that is a backlash to/change from another unhealthy aesthetic (overweight and underweight, respectively).

[Viva_La_Revolution]

186. then how do you explain the ancient sculptures of "very fat" women

who were considered the ultimate womanhood?

Weight was considered to be wealth, and a large woman would survive off her store of fat, and survive to raise her children, while a thin woman was considered weak and not likely to survive famine.

you have to go hundreds or thousands of years back instead of factoring the recent years of Mass Media Propaganda that have skewed our outlook.

not argueing with you, just bringing that point up for conversation.

[CountAllVotes]

132. for those of "us" raised in the "Twiggy" era ...

This is good news. I never was a size 10 or a size 12. I was a size 16 when I graduated from high school and was considered FAT. Today, I am about 20 lbs. heavier than I was 30 years ago. I'm no longer told I am FAT by others except for one person, my ultra-thin and trim doctor (110 lbs., looks like sh*t IMO as she is several years younger than I am and has lots of wrinkles already).

I struggled my entire life with being told I was FAT. I remember at the age of 11 I was on a diet of salt crackers and pickles trying to become thin. Now how sad is that?

None of the women in my family were EVER thin, except for one that is now living. She is bone thin - in fact I'd say very likely anorexic (90 lbs. - 5'8" tall). Her mother told her from Day #1 in life that she could not and should not eat much ever because men wouldn't find her attractive. She lived with and bought this bait her whole life and continues to do so. I recently got a picture her and I was both shocked and sickened. It looked like a skeleton in a dress with the face looking like a skull with skin pulled tightly over it. Her mother brags that she is a size 1 and says, "Do you know what that means? She is a SIZE ONE!" as if to brag. :grr:

I'll keep my extra weight. No one ever tells me I look FAT anymore, they tell me I look "normal" except for my doctor, Ms. Thin. *sigh*

I am glad people are loosening up on this way of judging people and what they weigh. In many cases, some people are just not thin and never will be due to something called genetics. I favor my late mother very much and she was about the same size (give or take 20 lbs.) her whole life too. She was always told she was FAT too and told me I was FAT many times when I was a young girl and it was not just her, but also my father. :(

I found myself slipping into becoming an anorexic myself by the age of 16. I fell horribly ill and frankly, never really recovered from what damage I did to myself from the extreme dieting (300 calories a day and yep, I got down to 116 I remember ONCE and no it was not worth it!).

I look back on photographs of myself when I was younger and I was not FAT, I was just no Twiggy. I was an attractive young woman and it is really too bad I did not realize it. I felt like I was very UGLY and very unattractive and FAT always which simply was not true.

Today, I do not worry about my weight. I watch what I eat and I feel pretty good about the way I look. If I gain a few lbs., I cut back on eating for a couple of weeks and I manage to maintain my weight fortunately. I'm no knock out, but I feel ok about myself finally. It only took 40 years of feeling like a piece of garbage because I was never a "Twiggy". I find this incredibly sad.

As for that Sunshine Girl picture - nice implants is all I can say. Keep this in mind when viewing these sorts of "pictures". What you see may not exactly be "real".

:kick:

[Megahurtz]

142. I think that the Twiggy Era

did ruin it all.
In the 50's women were a little more rounded and were still considered very attractive.
After Twiggy the obsessive skinniness model-look set in.
That caused a lot of people to become exsessively anorexic, or obsessed about being "too fat".

Talk about brainwashed.:eyes:

[CountAllVotes]

148. yeah I'm glad that is GONE

what a hell ... :puke: literally.

[phrenzy]

138. Anorexic

One thing that DOES piss me off is that many fat people are quick to label anyone who is thin 'anorexic' - You need to stfu and realize that some people are naturally thin, even VERY thin and far from anorexic. Deal with it.

[LeftyMom]

139. I dealt with that constantly until I had my son

Fat women said really hateful shit to me just for having a slim build and there was no recourse. If I responded, it was picking on the poor fat woman. I still get that sort of comment pretty frequently and I'm definitely a few pounds over what constitutes a healthy weight for me. Apparently I offend people simply by wearing a single digit pant size. Fuck that.

The next time somebody bitches about size discrimination one minute and then makes some comment about how "anorexic" "toothpicks" aren't "real women" in the next breath (like that isn't fucking size discrimination) I'm gonna kick them in thier fat ass. :argh:

[phrenzy]

145. Women have it way worse

In terms of being skinny - God, it was bad enough for me as a guy to keep being called 'Bones' and people constantly angrily asking me "Don't you EAT?!?!" etc. I think fat women are much more venomous in their critique of thin people. Always labeling them as 'sick' or whatever, when the fact is MOST skinny people are NOT bulemic/anorexic - They may just not eat as much crap, have a fast metabolism or stay active.

[HockeyMom]

144. Thank you very much

When my daughter was a teenager in HS a few years ago, they actually sent her to the nurse, psychologists, etc., because they considered her too THIN (5'4",105 lbs.). They said they suspected her of being anorexic or bulimic. It was just not "normal" how much she could eat and yet remain so thin.

Really p/o'd me. I went to the school armed with the family PHOTO albums, dressed in my size 3 jeans and size 5 shoes. I was in my early 50s at this time. My daughter and I can wear each other's clothes. Get the picture?

As soon as I walked in, I was greeted with, "Oh, you must be ......'s mother. We can seem the family "resemblance."

They never said anything more about my daughter's weight ever again.

[eridani]

155. And being fat couldn't possibly have a similar genetic component

Let us know the next time you get denied health care or are refused insurance because of your genetic heritage.

[Beausoir]

163. Bingo! Great post!

You point out the hypocrisy. Uber skinny people can claim a genetic component to their body shape, but fat people can't??? I'm calling bullshit on that whole load of crapola.

[HockeyMom]

179. I agree with you

Skinny or overweight. No matter, you cannot escape your GENES. Ok, putting weight aside. My Mom was started going GREY when she was in her 20s. My Dad, on the other hand, was in his early 60s before he STARTED going grey. I take after my Dad. Late 50s, almost no grey at all. My daughter, who obviously takes after my Dad's side (and her father), is 27 and has quite a number of grey hairs. Crap shoot what genes you get. Cannot escape it.

Same as the weight aspect.

[eridani]

181. Glad we're on the same page

There is no excuse for ragging on the naturally skinny and assuming that they are always sticking their fingers down their throats, any more than there is an excuse for ragging on fat people and assuming that they are always stuffing themselves with junk food.

[Shine]

152. Alrighty then! Bring on the ice cream and donuts!!

what the hell am I doing eating celery??
:evilgrin:

[zara]

166. Horny people will take what they get.

Nuff said?
If the only apples in the store are bruised, and you have a craving, they start to look pretty good, no?

[Beausoir]

167. Fuck that. What a sick post.

This is the kind of idiotic bigotry that we are talking about.

How old are you anyway?

[PVK]

174. It should be about health not appearance.

As long as your weight is not interfering with your health and/or lifestyle, what's the difference?

[Nikia]

176. I have both fat and thin people in my family

Looking at pictures of my ancestors, there did seem to be a genetic correlation. Yes, there were overweight people in the late 1800's, not just the past 10 years.
One of the strange things about some of the older people in some of those heavy families though is that they lose weight spontaneously in their late 70s and 80s. Perhaps, it was good that they had a little bit of extra weight that they could lose.

[Writer]

184. "Supersize Me" was on the Sundance Channel last weekend.

Now, I'm sure there were overweight people before this era, but I doubt seriously that they were eating the disgusting 2,000-3,000 calorie diet many Americans eat today.

We do not eat right. We do not exercise. You can be a Size 4 and have a cholesterol level of 270. Same for someone who is a Size 20. Both are signs of a society that has become bloated with wealth and bad diet. The problem is not WEIGHT, the problem is a lack of HEALTH. We are busying ourselves to death, lusting after the McMansion and all the STUFF therein and do not give ourselves the time needed for proper diet and exercise.

Given the demands that American society places on its citizens to merely maintain themselves (we don't live in a socialist country - we must personally work and pay for everything) we may never again have the time to develop for ourselves the quality of life needed to take care of this epidemic. (I am one to believe it IS an epidemic.)

And for the working poor in our nation, who must work five times as hard for five times less than the rest of us, very few options remain. And that is the largest disgrace of all.

I had all these thoughts after watching "Supersize Me." If it's 7:30 at night, and you're driving home after work with your two hungry kids in the car, what's easier? Cooking at home or making that short trip to the McDonald's just down the road?

If you see this movie, it will SCARE YOU STRAIGHT... to the GYM. I PROMISE! RENT IT.

[Beausoir]

188. I NEVER eat at McDonalds and I'm fat.

This idea that anyone who is fat must be scarfing down Big Macs is ignorant and offensive.

[Qanisqineq]

191. Bingo!

I have a hormone problem so I go from 80 lbs. overweight to normal weight (or even underweight) and back up again. Constant yo-yo. When overweight, I can exercise like crazy and literally eat next to nothing and it doesn't matter. There are many women with undiagnosed PCOS or thyroid conditions or other endocrine problems that are overweight. And diagnosis and treatment don't necessarily cure the problem. Undiagnosed men, too, but I doubt they have problems with their ovaries ;) LOL

There are many different reasons for being overweight. To automatically assume laziness or overeating is just plain ignorant. I learned that lesson when 4 years ago when I suddenly gained 75 lbs. in a matter of months. It took 3 years of yo-yo-ing back and forth to be diagnosed. Doctors constantly told me, "just eat healthier and exercise more". Argh! I was eating apples and pickles and crackers and exercising 2 to 3 hours a day and nothing!

[Writer]

194. If you have a hormone problem, then you have a hormone problem!

But does that explain the reason for the extreme increase in adult and child obesity in this country?

Not many can make that claim. Some simply do not maintain a healthy lifestyle. And once again, it is not about WEIGHT, it is about HEALTH.

[Qanisqineq]

198. I was referring to people discriminating against overweight

And yes, all the corn starch and other chemicals in food is leading to an increase in PCOS and thyroid problems and thus being overweight. So it is both -- not maintaining a healthy lifestyle AND some people being affected by the chemicals in foods.

[bpeale]

200. causes of overweight

part of the problem is ... TELEVISION. back when i was a kid (i'm 57), TV only was on 3-4 hours a day. now it's on 24 hrs a day. part of the problem with that is that kids are not encouraged to go outside and run around & use their imagination to entertain themselves. it has nothing to do with busy lives or any other bullshit. television is used as a babysitter from the time kids are wee little. we encourage that. i encouraged my daughter to be outside all the time as a youngster, running around & playing. we lived in west germany then. she still turned out to be a fat adult. english tv was on only 3-4 hours a day in the evenings. later my daughter was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome, which as it happens, is predominant in the women in my family. it has all types of nasty symptoms ... excess hair on the body, excess weight (especially around the stomach), etc. all things that trouble very young women. it is a hormonal problem. there is no cure for it. it can, however, go into remission periodically for no reason. or it can go into remission as a result of pregnancy. my daughter's weight yo-yo'd up and down from the time she was about 10 (she's 28 now). i am encouraging her now to get pregnant to put it hopefully permanently in remission. it's not always a matter of overeating or sedentary lifestyle.

[Writer]

193. We do not eat right nor do we exercise in this country.

Take it personally, or not. I am tired of excuses.

[Moloch]

203. A lot of people who are fat ARE scarfing down Big Macs...

Some people who have weight problems have glandular disorders and such but the majority of people who are fat can only blame themselves and their poor diets.

[dogfacedboy]

189. More evidence of the dumming down of America.

While being fat doesn't diminish a person in any area of humanity, it's still unhealthy, period. What do we have if we don't have our health?

[LisaL]

195. So, lets outlaw smoking and drinking then.

It's not healthy, after all, and we all should strive for good health.
People do unhealthy things all the time, and smoking is very dangerous to health, but I don't hear you demanding it became illegal.
:eyes:

[Writer]

196. The idea is moderation.

It's not unlawful to smoke, but EVERYONE knows it's unhealthy.

You even can drink too much, if one is of legal age and you don't drive, but that is unhealthy, too.

The same goes for overeating. It is not illegal to not take care of yourself, but an individual must accept the consequences of those decisions.

[Moloch]

197. I don't think this poster was suggesting making anything illegal...

It failed with prohibition and again with the war on drugs.

The problem is that smoking is not socially acceptable, while being overweight is.

Smoking is very dangerous to health and so is being overweight.

Both should be discouraged.

[dogfacedboy]

199. Actually, that is my stance on smoking.

This thread, however, is about how Americans don't think being overweight is a bad thing.

The ONLY reason tobacco isn't illegal is because so many people make so much money from it. Big Tobacco.

[Kber]

192. Well,

People may be becoming more accepting of overweight people, but it sure triggers some intense emotions anyway doesn't it.

[Nikia]

202. More thoughts on this since it is still being discussed

I think that in many cultures, overweight people have been considered attractive. When I say overweight, I mean overweight not morbidly obese.
Even in this culture, big men who are overweight are often considered attractive. Many male professional athletes, not just the big football defense players, are overweight. While overweight women make less money than normal weight women, overweight men actually make more money than their normal weight counterparts. Many men who are underweight or on the low end of normal want to gain weight. A big man is considered attractive and powerful. In a harsher world, that was very true. I think that image is still with us today.
As for women, an article observed that being thin was not popular in cultures that valued child bearing. The few anorexics in those cultures are women who do not want to marry and have children. Where childbearing is not important, being thin is more popular. In cultures that valued motherhood, being overweight was favored over being thin.
Even though being overweight is not necessary for men to hunt or fight enemies or do heavy labor and women are judged by more than just motherhood as well as better survival of childbirth for women of all builds, I think that there might be something instinctual about finding that attractive. If the average person is overweight, it really wouldn't make sense for the average person not to find an overweight person attractive. It means that they are accepting of their self image and those around them.
Doctors will argue about what is really overweight and whether or not it really is unhealthy to be overweight. I don't think that people who believe that thin is better though are really concerned about health since the health curve on the underweight side of normal is a much steeper drop off than on the other side.
Morbidly obese people do tend to be unhealthy though. I think that they do need to do more research into what causes it. While some are compulsive overeaters, some others might have serious metabolism problems. It is normal for the body to want to remain at a set point, making it difficult to lose or gain significant weight if the body is healthy.

[w8liftinglady]

205. I have been in OA for 20 years

I am a bulemic,compulsive exerciser.There is a tremendous pressure on women..and even men... to conform to a preconceived notion of aesthetic beauty.I firmly believe it is a getically predisposed,physiologically driven illness.Who in their right mind would want to subject themselves to constant abuse and derision?
Well...for those Duers that battle this-let me show you a little love.I've felt your pain,and understand.
Peace.

[w8liftinglady]

206. a link to OA-if you are interested

http://www.oa.org/index.htm