Man waving knife killed by New Orleans police

[Puglover]

Updated: 05:23 AM EST
Man Waving Knife Killed by New Orleans Police
By BRETT MARTEL, AP

NEW ORLEANS (Dec. 27) - The city's embattled police department will have another internal investigation to deal with after a swarm of converging officers gunned down a man brandishing a knife.



AP
A man who videotaped the incident says the man carrying a knife, foreground, refused to obey repeated orders by police to lay down.





A police spokesman said the officers who fired on the man will be reassigned pending the outcome of the investigation, but he defended their response, saying at least one officer's life was in danger just prior to the barrage of gunfire.

"You have a subject who's lunging at them with a knife ... swinging wildly at them and they're fearing for their life," Office David Adams, a police spokesman, said after the Monday afternoon shooting. "They had no other choice but to resort to lethal force."

Officers repeatedly asked the man to drop the knife and used pepper spray to try to subdue him, but he used a cloth to cover his face and was still able to walk toward an officer and threaten him, authorities said.


http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051226180409990003&cid=505&ncid=NWS00010000000001

[Cooley Hurd]

1. It was clear from the videotape I saw that he wasn't well...

...acting like someone off their meds. I guess this is how we treat the mentally ill in Bush's America - we just gun them down...:(

[Clarkansas]

2. I don't know the details, but police officers

are often put in lose lose situations like this. If they gun someone down who has a knife, they will get a bunch of accusations of "why didn't you wound him?" or "why didn't you shoot the knife out of his hands?" But if they don't kill him and he injures someone, the police will get a bunch of blame too.

[Cooley Hurd]

4. Whatever happened to shields and batons?

:shrug:

[Clarkansas]

5. What if they clubbed him and he ran away

and stabbed a bunch of people? How would you feel then? That could very easily happen if he was on PCP. If a person has a deadly weapon and is resisting police, the police have to use deadly force.

[Cooley Hurd]

10. There were at least 15 cops surrounding him (I counted)...

15 cops couldn't subdue one man with a knife???

Sorry, but shooting and killing this man should've been a last resort ONLY, since the video never showed a concerted effort by the officers to subdue him physically.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Yes I agree

Cops will tell you they fear a knife more than a gun. But come on, there were 15 cops there. Couldn't a couple have distracted him while a couple more tackled him from behind?

[Jamastiene]

177. It did appear to me that he was surrounded and outnumbered.

I saw enough of the tape to know that they could have ended that without deadly force. Since when is a small knife any match against 15 guns, anyhow?

[Robb]

232. Spoken like someone who's never been stabbed. n/t

[Jamastiene]

254. Nah, but I've been smacked over the head with a hammer

in a murder attempt. Does that count for anything in your not tough enough book?

[Jamastiene]

178. Also, I'd like to add a question about the video being cut short.

Who would film an obvious news story like that and then turn the tape off at the last minute? Most people who would film an incident like that would keep rolling until the incident was clearly over.

[ladjf]

67. I don't think that it is the policemen's jobs to determine what

crimes the subject might commit in the future. That is the job of the court and mental health specialists. The police should do whatever is necessary to subdue the threatening person with the least possible injury to all. There is no way that the staggering old man in the video could have successfully stabbed any of the policemen. They should have exercised better judgment, showing some patience.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

69. "and ran away"

Whatever happened to arresting people in america? Why do cops now have this right to kill on sight?

[me b zola]

180. "because the person didn't comply"

I have heard people actually use that as a reason for the police to kill someone. Do they even hear themselves when they say that??

Civilized nations do condone public officials killing someone because they do not "comply" with an order.

[MADem]

88. Or a darn TASER??? n/t

[zbdent]

7. Other than the person who was shot in the eye and killed,

whatever happened to the "humane" bean bag "bullets"?

Oh, they're used on peaceful "anti-war" protesters . . .

[Clarkansas]

8. If someone has a deadly weapon, police use deadly force.

[Cooley Hurd]

12. Well, we learned on 9/11 that boxcutters are deadly weapons...

You would support 15 cops killing ONE man with a boxcutter? :shrug:

[LisaL]

15. Let me ask you-if a private citizen would shot someone

coming at them with a knife-would you still think it was a ridiculous use of force? How many would be praising a brave private citizen for saving oneself?

[Cooley Hurd]

18. One-on-one, no, not ridiculous to use a gun...

...but, there were FIFTEEN trained law enforcement officers SURROUNDING him.

Your supposition isn't valid in this case...

[mountainvue]

110. The video shows him moving away

from the police officers.

[LisaL]

144. And while he was moving away, he hasn't been shot.

The police claimed they shot him because he was coming at them. His final moments are not on tape. But the way he was acting, I think it's rather possible he was coming at them.

[mountainvue]

159. This quote is

from the above linked article:
Trey Brokaw, a patron at a nearby bar, said he saw the victim with a knife in his hand shortly before the shooting. "I didn't see anyone near him," Brokaw said. "It didn't seem like anyone was going to get hurt to me."

[LisaL]

173. If Mr. Brokaw didn't see anyone near him, WTF was he looking

at? How many cops have we counted near the guy?

[me b zola]

181. Do you mean like an untrained woman who is being abused in her home??

Key word--untrained. Reality is that private citizens who defend themselves with deadly force are much--MUCH--more likely to recieve a stiff jail sentence, often murder. The kicker is that the police officers are trained, private citizens usually are not.

[Clarkansas]

17. So if 15 cops were on a plane and a person with

a box cutter was threatening them, you would want the the cops NOT to use deadly force?

[Cooley Hurd]

19. *Yawn* - no one was on a plane in this case...

:eyes:

[Clarkansas]

20. Yawn. And he wasn't using box cutters either. It was a knife.

:eyes:

[Cooley Hurd]

22. I was addressing your "deadly weapon" comment...

knife=deadly weapon=boxcutter.

Nice try, still no cigar...

[SomewhereOutThere424]

72. OMG!

A knife! Let us run in fear!

You're taking an argument and trying to win it by diminishing facts and putting in emphasis on things that don't need to be. No airplane, no box cutter. Yes new orleans, yes a guy with a knife. Is it really so scary? They have non lethal means to entrap people like that. They're simply not using them. When one uses unnecessary force to solve a problem they are more dangerous than said problem.

:eyes:

[LisaL]

76. If the guy with a knife was coming at you , you would

be singing a different tune, I bet. Knives are lethal weapons, and pretending that they are harmless doesn't make much sense.

[mountainvue]

112. Again, he was not coming at them

but moving away from them.

[LisaL]

116. According to the police, he was, when they shot him.

[mountainvue]

137. The video tends to disprove that and dead men tell

no tales.

[LisaL]

145. The video does not show him being shot, so, how does it

tend to disprove anything? You can clearly see that he is acting crazy, though. Would it be surprising if he decided to attack?

[mountainvue]

160. None of the witnesses mention

him charging the police. That statement was made by the police themselves. You'd think at least one witness would have seen him charging after the police officers.

[Rhiannon12866]

168. IMHO, you summed it up completely and sensibly.

There is no reason to use deadly force when 15 armed police are faced with a lone man with a knife, no hostages. Something more must have been going on here. There was no reason to fire on him, since there are many other ways that they could have subdued him. I can think of a few, but I'm not a professional at this. They must know many more. I agree that this was unnecessary, and tragic.;(

[SomewhereOutThere424]

70. Deadly weapon? ROFL

You honestly think a bunch of gun-ho trigger happy cops are less dangerous than a guy with a knife? Maybe in 1800s a knife would be a dangerous weapon. I'm more afraid of these deranged cops shooting people in NO and making the whole situation frighteningly worse than it has to be. Especially after all that looting. They should be disbanded and recreated from people OUT of the state. They're obviously too traumatized from the whole thing to be dependable law enforcement anymore.

[LisaL]

211. I love how when gun control is discussed, somebody will

always say how an individual determined to kill someone will just use other means, such as a KNIFE. But now, all of the sudden, knives are harmless little things. LOL.

[pretzel4gore]

9. oh come off it; real men have faced tigers!

alot of cops are plain cowards, it seems, too scared to do anything but shoot madly.....'a coward dies a thousand deaths, while a brave man dies but once' as the saintly Che once said

[catnhatnh]

11. Actually that sounds.....

...more like Kipling than Che....

[pretzel4gore]

34. i think you're right....

ole rudyard did say that, but our hero Che still represents the truth of the sentiments better then most:) and thus springs to mind quicker

[catnhatnh]

86. When the Man and the Myth....

...are in conflict, Print the myth....(The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance)

[LisaL]

13. I am sure they have. Don't you the tiger would have been shot

if it was coming at them?
Or would they be saying "here, kitty, kitty, kitty"?

[pretzel4gore]

35. a tiger be offended by 'here kitty kitty kitty'!

but a saucer of milk and tossing it a roll of toilet paper surely do the trick....

[Kagemusha]

14. This is why I don't expect better when it comes to cop commentary.

Not to harp on it forever but, I find it sad to see. And I'm real anti-police brutality (it offends my law and order sensibilities, just like Bush's NSA follies) to begin with. Cops are human beings; there's all kinds, good and bad. Deciding most or virtually all are cowards seems "patently ridiculous" to me.

[pretzel4gore]

39. maybe if the media wasn't so fulla 'cops are heroes' bs all/time

etc...yes police are necessary and often required to act while 2nd guessers watch, but we are damn near a police state after many generations glorifying what is a tragic necessity (there have been large, functional societies that simply didn't need standing army of cops, at least in part because 'the commons' accounted for most vital wealth) and the same cops who shoot a suicidal crazy will die like flies protecting mass murderers like hitler, regan, geebush, ghenhis khan etc....and frankly hypocrisy isn't okay, EVER

[Patchuli]

190. Many cops are heroes

but here's a point of view from someone who grew up in the beat of the monsters that beat on Rodney King, a lot of cops are bullies and that's why they become cops. Those cops were bullies towards us too. There is no justification for 15 cops being unable to subdue a single man and having to shoot him to do so. That is pathetic and I haven't even seen the video. Cops are likely to overreact, especially in NO these days. That's what I think happened.

[seeminer21]

56. Thank you!

Agreed

[LisaL]

6. If someone is coming at me with a knife-I am not going to worry

whether that person is mentally ill or not. He might be mentally ill, which doesn't mean he isn't dangerous.

[Cooley Hurd]

16. Sure. one-on-one, I might feel differently about use of a gun...

...but there were at least FIFTEEN cops surrounding him! If 15 cops cannot subdue ONE knife wielding man without filling him full of lead, then that speaks volumes about law enforcement training being woefully inadequate!

[LisaL]

21. So, if a private citizen was in a public place, surrounded

by hundreds of people, and all of the sudden a knife waving maniac is coming up to him/her-no good? Can't shoot? Only one on one is acceptable? I guess if you are in public, you have to just prepare to die?

[Cooley Hurd]

24. Let's stick to the facts of the case...

:crazy:

There were 15 cops vs. ONE knife-wielding guy.

[LisaL]

27. And they shot him. Totally appropriate, I think.

Would you expect one of them to have a go at the guy, while the others waited their turn?

[Cooley Hurd]

28. I never suggested the cops going after him...

...one at a time.:eyes:

[pretzel4gore]

42. sounds fair to me...

one at a time. that way, the knife weilding maniac isn't crowded, at least (see what he's doing)

[LisaL]

65. Well, if you want to wrestle with an armed man, that's your

prerogative. I don't see why these police officers should have risked their lives. After all, they did try to subdue him with pepper spray, which didn't work. He didn't leave them much choice. And I don't care that there was 15 of them. He could have hurt or kill one of them, and then we all would be screaming that they were so stupid to let that happen.

[saigon68]

71. its simple they are cowards and KILLERS

who are being praised for their thuggish murderous ways by a lot of sheep here

[LisaL]

74. Better be a live coward, than a dead hero.

Or spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair.
I don't think we should demand that our police officers be heroes at all times.

[Occulus]

139. You've never heard the term 'dogpile', have you? n/t

[TX-RAT]

41. then that speaks volumes about law enforcement

So i take it your an expert in law enforcement training. So i guess that means you would be the first to run in and subdue him. Your really making me laugh.

[Cooley Hurd]

44. Um, it's simple math, really...

15 versus 1. IF I had 14 other people running in with me, I'd not fear the man with the knife. Not one bit!

Glad to make you laugh! I guess it doesn't take much for you... :spray:

[TX-RAT]

47. I'd not fear the man with the knife

Stop it, your killing me. ROFLMAO

[Cooley Hurd]

49. Still no constructive rebuttal? I'd quit now if I were you...

...because you're STILL not addressing the issue at hand, just chucking up straw men to-and-fro.

And, still laughing at the unfunny? A pie-in-the-face must send you into Myocardial infarction.:eyes:

[TX-RAT]

52. Self deleted

[Mojorabbit]

58. As much as I hate them

this would have been the perfect setup to use a taser....

[LisaL]

140. Except they haven't got any tasers.

There is just no pleasing anyone. When the taser is used, everybody cries, and demands that tasers aren't used anymore. So, WTF do they have left? Maybe we should arm the police with a bunch of flowers.

[Rhiannon12866]

169. I'm sure that using tasers would have been preferable, to anyone, than

using guns. Given the choice between the two, what would you choose?:shrug:

[LisaL]

174. They have not got any tasers. Do you want them to use

imaginary tasers? In fact, some of you won't be happy until police has nothing at all, or so it seems. Lets completely disarm them, and train them in marshal arts. This way they can use Rambo moves to disarm suspects, they don't need no guns.

[Rhiannon12866]

176. Perhaps they should request them. These have got to be better than guns.

I'm the first to acknowledge that deadly force is sometimes necessary, but it should be the last resort. I've also been to England, where police do not regularly carry guns. They can request them, if necessary, but they have to prove special circumstance.:shrug:

BTW, though I did see this report on the news, and have my opinions, this was not my fight. But my friend, who you replied to, earlier, was admitted to the hospital, this afternoon, and may face surgery, tomorrow, and asked me to check this thread, which he felt strongly about, so I felt obliged to carry on. He and I feel much the same about this. There have already been too many lives lost, unnecessarily, so we should proceed with caution, and spare any life that we can.;(

[LisaL]

193. And as soon as somebody is killed by taser, everybody here

cries that tasers should never be used. Well, which one is that? And because of all that whine about tasers, now they were not allowed to use them.

[Rhiannon12866]

204. Well, they didn't have tasers, so this is a moot point. Apparently,

couldn't afford them, just as the city didn't have the funding to repair the levees. But they do have batons and shields and are trained how to use them. It seems obvious to me that 15 trained police should be able to subdue one lone man without resorting to a hail of gunfire. If he had a gun, the situation would have been completely different. But he was only armed with a knife, and since he wasn't Ed Aames, they should have been able to subdue him without anyone getting injured or killed, either him or the police.

[catnhatnh]

244. Whoa,Whoa....

....I yell when they are used on children, mental patients, and octogenarians...you'll find damn few here claiming it is unreasonable to use it on and advancing armed person....that said, then A.he was NOT advancing and B. the cops here apparently skipped the batons, and riot shields deal,the training in hand to hand combat deal,the rubber bullet or beanbag deal,the single gunshot deal, and advanced directly to execute (do NOT pass go, do Not collect $200)....

[SomewhereOutThere424]

73. lmfao

So you just admitted you're terrified of guys with knives. Not a good fear to have at a dinner table and a steak dinner IMO.

[Xenotime]

66. That's what we did in Miami

"I guess this is how we treat the mentally ill in Bush's America - we just gun them down... "

Shoot first ask questions later....just look at Iraq.

[Rhiannon12866]

208. Yup, I agree with you. This is very similar to what happened in Miami.

It appears that this event set a precedent. And I also agree with you about Iraq. This is what has been happening there and countless numbers of ordinary citizens have been killed. Between this and the tragic and growing number of deaths of American soldiers, life has suddenly become cheaper in this country. Compared to the casualty count in Iraq, the death of one lone man in NOLA seems insignificant.;(

[theHandpuppet]

78. Really, that's insulting

The man was brandishing a huge knife and had just assaulted someone. I don't know what could have been done to subdue him, but to say this is simply how we treat mentally ill people is ridiculous. I have family members who are mentally ill and I only thank god none have ever picked up a weapon and hurt someone. I also thank the goddess my partner isn't a cop who has to face an armed and dangerous mentally ill person. She might be condemned for defending herself.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

186. adios

[ET Awful]

23. Sounds to me like the very situation for which tazers are intended

as opposed to shocking little old ladies in rest homes.

Gee, we taze unarmed little old ladies, we shoot unarmed mentally ill folks in airports and those armed with knives on the streets.

Sorry, but I don't buy him being a deadly threat warranting lethal force. A tazer would have done the job fine.

[bpilgrim]

26. maybe they had them taken away for misuse

or they were never issued them... but that & suicide by cop were my first thoughts, too.

peace

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

30. Tazer/Pepper Spray/fire extinguisher/ many NON Lethal methods available

A gang of Policemen need not kill a single out of control individual
in order to subdue him.

If police now insist that lethal force is necessary for situations
such as this, we must conclude that
their IQ's are nowhere near high enough to carry a gun,
much less defend a town from "bad guys".

[IA_Seth]

33. They USED pepper spray, read the freakin article. n/t

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

38. no FREAKIN' duh Sherlock! read my post-lethal force was not necessary

[crankybubba]

205. really

lethal for was not necessary when confronted with a leathal weapon??? WHere did you get your training in use of force?? Police are trained to stop the action of the suspect it is foolish to try to confront a lethal threat by tackling the guy. Someone would have gotten stabbed and possibly killed. Just because many on here do not value the lives of law enforcement officers does not make it ok for them to throw one of thier lives away to try to subdue a guy with a lethal weapon. The cop hatred and uninformed blabbering is truly disgusting in this thread. Go get some use of force training that deals with edged weapons and get back to me.

[ET Awful]

50. But they did NOT use a tazer or any other non-lethal means.

They also shot to kill, they did not shoot to incapacitate. Sorry, but they went way beyond what was required to subdue the guy.

[LisaL]

134. This department does not carry tazers.

Because of all the litigations involved, they do not carry tazers. Every time tazer is used, somebody is going to cry that the tazer shouldn't have been used. And so they haven't got any tazers.

[ET Awful]

158. So having 15 officers shooting him is the alternative?

Sorry, not convinced.

If you think there's a lot of litigation for tazer use, wait until this hits the courts.

A single bullet would have incapacitated.

[951-Riverside]

46. Here in California when this women pointed a replica gun at officers...

They shot her in the leg and took her into custody they could have done that in this case.

[Clarkansas]

25. This thread is sad. My grandfather was a policeman

and I have a tremendous amount amount of respect for policemen. I reserve judgement about this case because NO ONE here has enough information.

Regardless, my grandfather dealt with enough people on drugs like PCP to know that it would be very unwise to think even 15 people could just take knife away from anyone without injury or death. If it is true that he had been pepper sprayed and was still lunging at the police officers with a deadly weapon, they were correct to use deadly force.

I am out of this thread.

[pretzel4gore]

45. well Clarkansas, there are some of us who don't love police

and who'll only grudgingly admit they're necessary in the first place....injustice is more rampant today then at any point in history; and all the police on earth doesn't change that. also, Notice during Katrina, the New Orleans police were as useless as a bag of nails to the people they were sworn to 'uphold and protect'...same ones that quick to kill a deranged crazy. That says the police are there to protect special interests mainly (if Katrina happened in "Mayberry' you think Sheriff Andy and officer Barney stand by while all that was going on? You think they'd disappear until later, then return to relieve 'blackwater' in protecting the rich peoples' mansions?)

[Zynx]

63. Societies need laws since human nature has a definite darkside to it.

In order to enforce those laws, we need police. I can't believe the anti-police sentiment that exists here.

[High Plains]

68. You must not have much experience with the police n/t

[Evergreen Emerald]

106. I agree with you Clarkansas

I guess they want one or two of the police officers to sacrifice him/herself assuming that if all 15 rushed him he would only stick a couple rather than all 15.

I am amazed that no one here has looked at the actions of the knife wielding guy / rather they blame the police: why didn't he just put the knife down? If 15 cops are coming at him, he should stop his aggression.

Why should it be a fair fight between the police and the knife-wielding maniac? It should not.

[aikoaiko]

29. I'll wait to see the whole video before casting judgment.

Videos like these have a way of finding themselves on useleesjunk, consumptionjunction, or ogrish.

While i would praise police for trying to disarm the knife weilder or try to subdue him with a tazer or some other less than lethal force, i sure as hell don't blame them for using lethal force if the bad guy threatened them with the knife or lunged.

He could have dropped the knife, afterall.

[slackmaster]

31. NO police must have taken lessons from the San Diego PD

Several years ago we had a spate of similar incidents. One homeless crazy man was killed for wielding a stick. Another had a bricklayer's trowel. The most egregious was a man who was shot dead for "making a furtive movement".

None of the SDPD officers involved in those shootings was ever disciplined IIRC.

[The Flaming Red Head]

32. Why can't they hit them with tranquilizer guns or something

suicide by cop is becoming a popular way to die. Do they always have to use deadly force?


(I know I probably sound naive, but I am just wondering.)

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. So apperently New Orleans is

getting back to 'normal.'

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

40. yeah yoo rite ! n/t

[americanstranger]

37. Suicide by cop.

This guy just enlisted a bunch of cops to put the bullets in his body instead of doing it himself.

The NY Times ran a story the other day about the rise in suicides in New Orleans, and how they've got 5-year-olds telling psychiatrists that they want to die.

Five-year-olds.

And I'm watching CNN, and Kagan is jabbering on about how New Orleans is 'coming back.'

My ass. That city is dying, and Bush is letting it happen. Hell will be too good a place for him.

-as

[onehandle]

54. Kagan lays on her back for a living.

And under Limbaugh after work.

Money MUST be the Ultimate Aphrodisiac.

[pitohui]

188. the city is not dying AND there are a lot of suicides

they can both be true, bush is as useless as tits on a boar, some nopd are bums who stole cadillacs, some people are in despair & can't go on when they see the big job ahead of them, for yrs i have heard whispers of people who chose to kill themselves by cop, this is a semi-accepted way to go that means your family won't have to find the body, so your guess abt the man may well be the truth

i wish people in this situation would consider that cops have families & dreams too, and it isn't fair to put even a stranger in this position, but when a person is suffering from despair sometimes they do not reason clearly

it is also true that other nopd are heroes who served thru terrible stress, other people (the majority really) are notable for their good attitude & determination, despite all the privations & lack of money materials etc people are rebuilding, the city will not die, cities don't die that easy, courage

it is sad that some people despair but it doesn't help them and it hurts us if we join them in despair

comments like the city is dying, all the houses are covered in mold, this conspiracy that conspiracy and so on -- they do not help because they themselves promote despair and they are not even true

be strong

[anotherdrew]

43. ever heard of a hundreds of years old device called a man-catcher?

It's a long pole with a loop of rope at the business end when it's around your target you pull it tight

[Zodiak]

51. sure have

Some were even more viscious, using a two-tined fork with backwards-facing barbs that caught onto chainmail or flesh.

Was force necessary? It seems apparent

Was deadly force necessary? Absolutely not, and I would like to see more of an effort to just use "force" first before killing the guy intentionally. "What if" scenarios do not cut it (besides being disingenuous arguments).

Too many of these incidents are hitting the news as of late. Surely those that often defend the police in every instance like this have noticed an increase in the number of these incidents and a decrease in the threshold of behavior that sparks these "deadly force" incidents in the first place. This is worthy of note reagrdless of individual incident rationalizations.

We have come a long-long way from treating our criminals as anything resembling human beings.

And as for the stupidity argument I have seen so often on these threads....please understand that the mentally-ill are quite capable of rationally performing any action that a sane person would find "stupid". Get over yourself with the one-size-fits-all approach to humanity. (none of this post is said in rebuttal of the previous post, btw)

[anotherdrew]

55. just such a device would render these situations non-lethal

SO WHY IS there no availability of such devices? No awareness that such things even exist? They would be cheep as dirt m,aybe $100 at most. Instead they only have guns.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[pitohui]

189. but they DID use a non-lethal means

they used pepper spray, it didn't work, just how many gadgets do you expect them to carry

c'mon, if the cops are guilty, let them be tried, but i'm not going to argue that an effective police officer can go around slung w. a brazillion different gadgets from Q's closet

[anotherdrew]

207. gee, you think maybe they could keep it in their car or trunk?

sure would save on paper-work.

[loveandlight]

53. use of extreme violence too accepted

I understand police officers being in harm's way need to defend themselves, but this seems like another incident where too much force was used where a little less might have sufficed. Did the man need to be killed? It was a knife, not a gun. He could have been subdued by a gunshot to his arm or leg that would have incapacitated him and not killed him. Why is it acceptable that this many police surrounding a lone man with a knife have to resort to the most deadly of force to take care of the situation? And not just a gun shot, but multple shots. The police spokesman's comment that there was no other choice than lethal force I think is just a part of the current mindset. Police are no longer "peacekeepers" in the community, but comandos out to clear the streets of any threatening elements. No longer are these people human and deserving of thoughtful, nuanced means of handling, no, just shoot them down and forget about it. This is a terrible mindset that we have let the police departments in our cities come to. It needs to be stopped at the outset, in the training and mentality of what job exactly the police are out there to accomplish. If they look at it as a war zone, then killing is just a given, as it has become. It's just wrong any way you look at it. They had other choices, they chose not to use them because killing is acceptable and easy. End of story.

[OneBlueSky]

57. bingo . . . well said . . . n/t

.

[DemExpat]

59. Yes, I agree with this.

Very well said.

:thumbsup:

DemEx

[johnnie]

60. Even though I agree with some of what you say

There was never really a time when all was just peachy with law enforcement. People seem to think that "cops gone bad" is some new wave of thinking or practice. There has always been bad cops and good cops. All anyone needs to do is look at the history of cops in Chicago, Cleveland and New York City back in the 30s and 40s.

To be honest, I believe cops show more restraint today than they did 50 years ago.

[KamaAina]

61. Does the NOPD have PTSD?

Coming on the heels of the Bourbon St. beating incident, and the reports of NOPD cops committing suicide, you've gotta wonder. Of course the NOPD has never exactly been shy about using force, particularly when the suspect fails the "bag test" (skin darker than a brown paper bag), but this is taking it to a whole new level.

edit: suspect not subject; we're not under a dictatorship just yet!

[Indy Lurker]

62. At least he had a weapon

Amadou Diallo was shot 19 times (after 41 rounds were fired) by four NYC officers reaching for his wallet.

a jury unanimously voted to acquit the officers of all charges.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo_(shooting_victim)

[LisaL]

64. And these officers won't ever be charged.

The guy did have a knife, and that makes a big difference.

[MADem]

91. Michael Moore did a fantastic AWFUL TRUTH piece on that issue

-- The "African American Wallet Exchange Program," wherein I take a trip to Harlem to distribute Day-Glo Orange wallets so that the police will no longer mistake a black man's wallet for a gun. Last year, the police fired 41 bullets and killed a man named Amadou Diallo -- whose only crime was that he was holding his wallet. This is one of many such incidents around the country where unarmed black citizens have been killed because the cops thought they "saw something."
http://michaelmoore.com//words/message/index.php?messageDate=2000-05-23

[SomewhereOutThere424]

75. The problem is bush, again

I was just talking to my friend who works a federal job and talks to a lot of people on topics like this the other day. According to him, the funds to the police department have been so shot that, atleast the NYPD, can't even work with partners anymore. When you deal with a bunch of deranged or violent people long enough with no partner, just you and a glock, you learn to use it.

If they had partners and training in more than just shooting to kill nowadays, I bet there'd be less killing. Police are not robots, they can tell when someone needs to be shot or not, be it fatally or non fatally. They have the right to choose to go against training to save a life. The most honorable save their friends AND enemies when they can help it. So to the cops doing this crap, well, you're failing that one little kid out there who has a dream to be a police officer, who respects you. You're failing me as a kid when I used to think you were the good guys and they were bad. But I can't say I don't sympathize. I know what it's like to have very little choice too.

Thanks bush, for ruining yet something else once sacred to this country. Thanks for toting your stupid little toilet turban raid against illusionary terrorists, and ruining the united states domestic forces. Maybe one day a cop will see bush with a knife, and...he'll have no other choice.

[sandnsea]

77. This was completely different

15 or so cops around one man. None of them were in any danger whatsoever. They just chose to kill him. Personally, I have to add, 15 or so white cops around one black man. May as well clean out New Orleans thoroughly, while they've got the chance. I bet there's alot more of this going on than we even know.

[Bake]

79. I saw the video at lunch (repeatedly!)

He did have a knife. But it looked to me like he was backing up, with the cops advancing. The video conveniently did not show the perp allegedly "lunging" at the cops. Maybe he did. I doubt we'll ever know.

It does seem odd to me that at such close range, they couldn't have simply incapacitated him. I have been told at various times, however, that cops are trained never to try to "wing" a suspect, that if they have to fire their weapons it is "shoot to kill."

Tragedy, all around. I'm not prepared to blame the cops just yet; it just seems troubling from the video that the perp/vic was backing up, and fifteen cops were advancing. Maybe he did lunge at them. If he did, I suppose the cops were right.

We had a similar incident in Cincinnati several years ago, the perp/vic had walked off from a mental facility and was armed with a BRICK. Surrounded by five cops who killed him because he refused to drop the brick. Cops, as I recall, were never indicted or disciplined.

Bake

[LisaL]

83. It doesn't show the end of it because the guy that was

shooting the video run downstairs. So he missed the end. The cops claim the guy lunged at them, and that's when he was shot.

[Indy Lurker]

80. Any video of when the guy actually get shot?

The video at the AOL link, shows a bunch of cops NOT shooting a guy with a knife who doesn't look so dangerous.

I'd like to know what changed in the situation (such as lunging with a knife) just prior to the police shooting.

[LisaL]

81. No. The guy that was shooting the video

decided to run downstairs. I presume to get a better shot at it? But while he was running, he heard the shots, so he missed the "grand finale", so to speak.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

84. Six figure incomes? You got to be confusing real cops

with the actors that play them on TV.

[Jed Dilligan]

99. Cops in California make six figures nt.

[Balbus]

109. What part of California?

It's not in San Francisco, which usually has the highest salaries in California...

http://www.sfgov.org/site/police_index.asp?id=27855

[Jed Dilligan]

166. They all make overtime nt

[Balbus]

185. What is the source for your claims?

[Jed Dilligan]

195. Personal experience and...

http://www.ktvu.com/news/4619134/detail.html

This article doesn't mention figures, but I'm close to the events and know a good number of officers were making six figures. Most of these guys live in ultra-fancy suburbs far away from the streets they patrol.

[Balbus]

196. Can't argue with personal experience...

[Jed Dilligan]

197. I know cops, I've worked with cops

and I'd like to see them paid less, armed less, and employed less. Is that because I'm a complete bastard? I don't feel that way about anyone else I've worked with.

[Balbus]

198. Well, the facts don't seem to support your

"personal experience," and you've already pointed out in another part of this thread you have a personal beef against cops in general, so I'm just going to take what you say with a grain of salt, if that's okay.

[Jed Dilligan]

200. Yes, they are fat Republican bastards taking food out of the mouths of

teachers, and anyone on DU who supports them perplexes me.

[Balbus]

201. I'm not indicating support or non-support.

Just wondering what the motivation was behind your false statement and personal grudge against the police in general. Did you flunk out of the Police Academy or something?

[Jed Dilligan]

209. LOL

False statements? What I say is quite true. In fact, I was just on the phone with my friend at the mayor's office and he helped me find a link (see above)

[Balbus]

251. Now the facts are up against...

"personal experience" and "a friend said so" - Again, facts have nothing on those two arguments.

[Jed Dilligan]

Read post 206 nt

[Jed Dilligan]

259. Read post 206 nt

[Jed Dilligan]

206. Okay then ...

http://www.cfac.org/Attachments/ot_costs_oakland.htm

Records released as part of that lawsuit show not only that Valladon made $71,470 in overtime last year but that his entire base salary is paid to perform the job of union president. That means any police work Valladon performs -- he averaged about 20 hours a week last year -- is reimbursed at the overtime rate of 1.5 times his base salary.

"What a horrible deal for the taxpayers," Olson said. "Not only are they paying him $150,000 a year to be a beat cop, but by paying his salary as union president they're paying him to fight the city over money."

[theHandpuppet]

161. Well here they don't even make 30 grand

And they still put their lives on the line every stinking day. The all-consuming cop hatred on this forum is really disgusting sometimes.

[Jed Dilligan]

165. And where do you suppose it COMES from? nt

[silvermachine]

187. I don't think it's all consuming cop hatred...

...probably just a reflection of people's views following their own personal experiences.
Perhaps you would consider this to be a form of prejudice, but bear in mind that most that feel this way probably have some reason for it, probably from their own first hand encounters.
My attitude toward the police is not a particularly warm one. I realize that they are necessary and there are good cops. A good police officer is one of the most valuable public servants that one can have. I also realize that many of the qualities that make an effective policeman are probably ones that would make me not want to socialize with cops. That's fine. That would be true of many other professions. The fact is though, that most encounters I've had with police have left me less than impressed. And I'm not talking about situations where I was arrested or "in trouble with the law" or anything like that.
I'm referring to situations like the time I was performing at a large public park and needed to know where a particular stage area was. I stopped to ask a cop where it was, he told me to get back in my car and leave as I was in an area where I couldn't park. OK, I said but asked quickly if he knew the part of the park I was referring to as I was getting back inside my car. He thrust his face about 4 inches away from mine and yelled at me to get back in the car and keep driving and then he put his hand on his gun. I couldn't believe it. I asked him if he was going to shoot me for asking him directions. He looked as if he was ready to. I just drove off. I could relate other, similar stories. Like how most police that I've met did as much recreational drug taking and dealing as anyone I've met while playing music for many years. The amount of drugs confiscated in drug busts that ended up being peddled by the same cops making the arrests was mind boggling. Or, how the drugs were often kept to be planted on innocent people in order to provide evidence in case none was there in future arrests. Or, how nearly every cop I ever met had a problem controlling their temper and were violent with their wives/girlfriends/etc. The degree of graft and corruption and cover up behavior in law enforcement would astound most people.
As I stated above, I know not all cops are bad and corrupt but to pretend that they are always correct and beyond reproach is laughable.
I'm sorry but 15 armed cops and 1 guy with a knife and they can't do better than kill him? Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

[crankybubba]

218. I asked one of the deputies in my area who

used to work in ca. he is still laughing at your comment. upper management or union leader maybe but the average cop definatelty no.

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[crankybubba]

227. face it the average cop is the one

that is going to be in that situation not the upper brass. you lose thanks for playing.

[Jed Dilligan]

230. Not so

There are patrol officers in my town making $300,000 or more, they respond to the same calls as rookies.

[crankybubba]

236. b.s.

prove it post the salaries and department

[Name removed]

238. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[americanstranger]

85. NOLA Cops don't make that much money.

A police academy grad starts at 28K salary. Not exactly 'six figures.'

But I agree with your point. They should have been able to take care of this guy without killing him.

-as

[LisaL]

87. Some of you might die, but this is just a sacrifice I am willing to take?

It really irritates me that someone sitting behind a computer thinks that other people are supposed to wrestle a crazed man armed with a knife.
When someone with a knife approaches you, then you can decide to wrestle with that person or whatever, even if you are armed.

[americanstranger]

94. Been there, done that.

Didn't get a scratch, when I was growing up in Philly. And I did it for free.

NYPD does it all the time. Are you saying we pay cops to shoot people?

Is 'crisis management' obsolete? Guess so...

It really irritates me when people assume that because you're 'sitting behind a computer,' that you're incapable of defending yourself. I learned to fight before I learned to type - and some of those fights happened to feature knives. Imagine that.

-as

[Jed Dilligan]

96. Cops have treated me like shit. I have never been protected by them,

only harassed. When I've been robbed or assaulted they laughed in my face when I asked for their help. So I say, let em bleed. Or put them in jail when they shoot someone, they same place I would be if I shot someone, even in self-defense.

[crankybubba]

217. it's easy

next time don't ask for thier help. You hate cops. we get that. next time handle it yourself. be responsible for yourself. I have a hard time feeling sorry for you. bleed in your own defense. cops are not responsible for your personal safety(according to the supreme court).

[Jed Dilligan]

220. Then they can all fuck off

What good are they to me, and why should my taxes support them?

Believe me, I learned a long time ago not to ask them for help!

[crankybubba]

225. I'll give you a quarter

so you can call someone who cares. how much money would it take for you to be willing to be stabbed.

[Jed Dilligan]

229. I've BEEN stabbed

On a job that paid less than any cop makes, what is YOUR fucking point????

Anyone can get hurt or die at work, and it is the cop's job to deliver that person to custody ALIVE. Boo hoo if Mr. Cop gets stabbed. Sometimes pizza makers burn themselves on the oven, they don't get a medal.

[crankybubba]

233. so what???

and it is the cop's job to deliver that person to custody ALIVE. where do you get that?? they are there to stop the threat period. preferably without loss of life. You chose you job and got stabbed so what a risk of the job according to you. you think it's the cops job to get stabbed. maybe it was also part of the risk of yours. don't feel sorry for ya. get some edged weapons training and disarm the guy. if it was sooo easy whay did'nt you disarm him you let youself be a victim.

[Name removed]

237. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

239. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

243. so the mentally ill

are unworthy of anyone's time. Sounds like the GOP.

[Name removed]

246. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blueatheart]

111. also been there and done it...

guy pulled knife on me, got the knife away from him (he was on something). I was 19 at the time. 5'2" female. Him: 6 foot male about 200 lbs. Me, no training, 15 cops, lots of money & time spent on training.

[LisaL]

148. A remarkable story indeed. Somehow I doubt

that many stories like yours end as well, though.

[blueatheart]

153. not a remarkable story...

point is if this tiny woman can handle 1 crazed guy with a knife, without fatally wounding him, why can't trained policemen do the same? 15 of them! Maybe because I did not want to kill anyone, even after being threatened.

[LisaL]

155. Well, I sure as hell couldn't do nothing to defend myself, and

so I got stabbed.
And so would be most people in your situation, whatever you want to admit it or not.

[Occulus]

129. When THEY have GUNS?

Give us ALL a fucking break. You know better.

COME ON!!!

[LisaL]

194. What would exactly be a point of having guns,

if they can't use them? For people that pointing out that 15 police officers were armed, and that is somehow should have been enough-well, the "victim" knew they were armed, and that didn't scare him into dropping the knife. So, again, what is the point of having guns if you aren't allowed to use them?

[theHandpuppet]

162. Exactly so.

Thanks, lizzy.

[Evergreen Emerald]

107. BS

They do not make six figures. That is a loak of crap. You pay cops to stop the bad guys so they won't go after you. Jesus. Un-believeable post.

[blueatheart]

113. as I work in the finance field, I can tell you that..

(maybe not in Nola) I know many cops that make 6 figures.

[Evergreen Emerald]

122. As I work in the law enforcement field, I can tell you

That is simply not the case. (Perhaps an elected official in a large metropolitan area), but certainly not the police officers who risk their lives daily.

[blueatheart]

133. "That is simply not the case. "

excuse me, but do you know for sure what every cop makes in this country? Maybe you make less, but I am telling you for a fact that I know regular "street" cops who make 6 figures. I see their financial statements. All cops,of course not, but do not tell it is not the case.

[Evergreen Emerald]

138. your original post suggested that it is the norm for officers

to make six-figure salaries. That is not the case. You may have a few who work lots of OT, but it is deceiving to suggest that generally police officers make six-figures.

[blueatheart]

143. how does my 1st post suggest all make 6 figures?

"as I work in the finance field, I can tell you that..
(maybe not in Nola) I know many cops that make 6 figures. "

"I know many" does not suggest in any way that all cops do. I know many people that drive Ford trucks. Does that suggest most people drive Ford trucks?

[LisaL]

245. Yea, cops make 6 figures. And tiny little women can

disarm huge guys without any problem, easy.
:sarcasm:

[Jed Dilligan]

167. Every tax penny I ever paid

That was paid to a cop, was wrung out of me against my will. Cops make me less safe, period, and there is nothing you can say to convince me otherwise.

The only good cop is an unarmed cop.

[RamboLiberal]

118. I'd hate to try to live on this "six figure" income

Position Starting salary Including State Pay *, Uniform Allowance & Millage Pay
Recruit $25,508 $26,008
Police Officer I $27,825 $32,625
Police Officer II $29,243 $34,043
Police Officer III $30,732 $35,532
Police Officer IV $32,298 $37,098
Police Sergeant $36,119 $40,919


http://www.nopdonline.com/rec1.htm

There are a few cities where a cop makes a damn fine salary - but that's the exception, not the rule. And I think a lot of these cities scimp on the training as well.

[Rex]

89. Have to disagree with police spokesman

You elevate to the threat level. Lethal force was not needed, just shoot the guy in the leg. Maybe both legs. $100 bucks says he would have dropped the knife.

[LisaL]

90. You can easily kill someone by shooting them in a leg.

Legs have arteries, in case you don't know.
The shot person can bleed to death, even if they are shot in the leg.

[Rex]

92. True, I just don't think lethal force was needed.

Or if it was then maybe a non-lethal shot (hopefully) to the leg. This is one instance where I believe tasers were needed.

[LisaL]

93. We didn't even see the end of that tape.

If, as they claim, the guy was coming at them with a knife, WTF are they supposed to do? Just sit and wait until he kills one of them? If it's in their procedures and protocols that they must shoot the guy, that is what they must do.

[Rex]

95. Ergo, shoot him in the leg or both.

The alternative is shooting him in the chest. No one is suggesting that they wait until he tries to kill someone, that's silly. That is why I said shoot the dude in the leg or arm or somewhere besides a 100% lethal shot to the chest. If a guy came at me with a knife and I had a gun, I would do my best not to kill him.

[americanstranger]

98. The camerman said he heard about 10-15 shots.

Must have been a hell of a knife.

-as

[Puglover]

97. Lizzy I think you have made your point over

and over again in this thread. You support the police. We got it. I do too. I do however think that with 15 of them and one crazy guy there were alternatives to killing him. I find it odd that you don't even consider that.

[Evergreen Emerald]

108. Why should it be a fair fight?

You and others keep commenting on the amount of police present. The guy should have been stopped. He chose not to stop himself when asked / ordered numerous times. When he was shot with pepper-spray he wiped it off and continued to threaten.

[LisaL]

115. Exactly. It's not like it's a duel.

On your marks... He is the one breaking the law.

[Puglover]

119. What about "crazy" "mentally unbalanced" eludes you?

He was a loon with a "small knife". His "choice" was not to put down the knife and they killed him. So answer my previous question. When lethal force is used like this do you and your pal Lizzy think there should be no questions asked. If that is the case it would seem you both advocate a police state.

[LisaL]

121. Mentally unbalanced people can obviously be a lot more

dangerous than the ones that aren't.
And do show me where I have said that there should be no questions asked. And what I am advocating is not a police state, but a right of a person to defend oneself.

[Puglover]

124. Really, then why the never ending

snarky posts at folks who are asking questions about this situation Lizzy. Do show ME where someone on this thread has said police do not have a right to defend themselves.

[Occulus]

149. Lizzy's profile is disabled

NO FUCKING TEXT!

[LisaL]

151. Well, what exactly do you think can there be in my profile

that has anything to do with discussing this particular situation?

[Evergreen Emerald]

130. Dear Puglover

Although I vehemently disagree with you, I have treated you with respect. I resent your sarcastic "you and your pal" tone and suggest that we can state our opinions without resorting to the lowest level of discourse.

You are making assumptions. You feel sorry for the guy who refused to stop threatening those men. You have dehumanized those officers who have spouses and children waiting for them at home. I feel sorry for him too. I wish he would not have done that. You are assuming he is a victim of mental illness and should be treated differently. You have no basis on which to make those assumptions. He may just be a violent SOB who threatens people on the street. Remember, the police were called to the situation in progress.

You indicate that he had a "small knife" and was killed for holding it. You are slanting the facts to fit your position. Actually he was killed for threatening those men with a deadly weapon. There are police training tapes that show (using real incidents) how quickly (and how far) one can lunge with a knife and kill another. It is significantly dangerous and deadly. You minimize the man's dangerousness.

Whenever the police kill someone, there is an investigation. I do not believe anyone here is suggesting there should not be one. Questioning a death is one thing. Vilifying those who risk there lives so you don't have to, is another.

[Puglover]

141. Sorry about the "pal" comment, it was snarky, however

regarding my "bending" the facts...I'm simply quoting ABC on the regarding the "small" knife. I'm not minimizing anything. He was dangerous. Noone here has suggested otherwise. I simply have doubts as many on this thread do whether or not lethal force should have been used.

Also please point out where I've vilified anyone. I'm mostly sick of the few folks spamming this thread saying the same thing over and over. And while you're at it show me where I "dehumanized those officers who have spouses and children waiting for them at home. Well THAT statement certainly puts me in my place! As someone very eloquently said earlier, spare me the bosom clutching emotion and stick with the facts.

[Puglover]

150. One more quick thing....please check out this Reuters link..

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2005-12-27T233519Z_01_SPI784616_RTRUKOC_0_US-HURRICANES-POLICE.xml


It also says he had a small knive and mentions he was a familiar figure in the neighborhood thought by some to be mentally unbalanced...

I knew I had read it somewhere and was not "bending" the facts to suit my argument.

[LisaL]

142. Exactly. The victim was a very large man. And the knife wasn't all that

small. I could clearly see it on the tape. The tape doesn't show his final moments either. But he was waving his hands up and down. I do think he is either mentally ill, on drugs, or wanted to be suicided, because no normal person would behave that way.

[RamboLiberal]

123. Rex - have you taken any tactical handgun training?

No one teaches shooting to the limbs. You shoot center mass cause trying to hit a leg or an arm is too damn hard, may not stop the attacker, and endangers bystanders if you miss. You know the bullet keeps on going down the street and can hit whatever is in its path.

Most PD's use hollowpoint bullets and shoot center mass too cause then the bullet will not exit the body. Shooting a limb a bullet could well pass right through an arm or a leg and then hit someone else.

I remember reading the NYPD was resistant to going to hollowpoint and used round nose bullets till they figured out they were hitting too many bystanders cause the bullets were passing through the bodies of the people they were shooting.

[DubyaSux]

100. Why....

...is the burden to protect one's self on the policemen?

The nutjob with the knife could have just put the knife down. But somehow, it's the cop's fault he didn't and people here seem to think the police have no right to protect themselves or people around them.

Trying to disable somebody threatening with a knife makes an unsafe environment less safe. Dropping the guy from a safe distance immediately creates a safe environment.

Some of you people watch too many cop movies or tv shows. The reality is, is the police have every right to go home to their family every night as opposed to getting killed. I hate Bush as much as the next person, but this is about safety. There is nothing safe about trying to disable some nutjob with a knife.

[Puglover]

101. It is routine in any incident like this that

the police must file a report and document what happened. They KILLED someone. It sounds as if you think because they are police that should be the end of it. Cmon, I believe that would be called a police state.

"But somehow, it's the cop's fault he didn't and people here seem to think the police have no right to protect themselves or people around them."

Name me a post where that was said. Tell me, don't you think that questions are warranted when lethal force is used?

[americanstranger]

102. He was outnumbered, 15 to one.

You're telling me that 15 highly-trained professional law enforcement officers could not have disarmed the guy by any means short of killing him?

Sorry, I ain't buying it. I've seen a pair (2) of NYPD officers disarm a homeless guy with a knife. Now, either NYPD are a lot better at their jobs and are able to defuse a situation without ending a life, or NOLA cops are trigger-happy cowards.

I can't believe that people here are fine with a guy getting shot 10 times, because the cops couldn't figure out a better way to do things.

-as

[Polemonium]

103. Good grief....

Anyway you slice this one, the force used was unacceptable. Your telling me a group of eight well trained, well armed men can't handle a nut job with a knife with out killing him? I can think of half a dozen ways non-lethal force could have been used which would have been safe for everyone. If you can not, then you might be too lazy, or cowardly, or intolerant of disobiedience to see clearly.

The police have a tough job, no doubt. They have to put up with alot of crap, and they have every right to expect to go home to the family. But in this instance they went too far.

[americanstranger]

105. GMTA.

We must have had the same thought at the same time. :)

-as

[LisaL]

172. Have it ever occurred to you that they are well armed for a

reason? What do you suppose they have their guns for? If they can't shoot anyone, then they shouldn't have guns. And that guy was bigger than any of them. I don't care if there is 8 cops or 80 cops. If they don't shoot, and he attacks one of them, that person could be a goner.

[Rex]

104. Just because you put a word in bold, does not make it true.

So you put a bullet in his skull because it is safer than disabling him? Wow, I hope you stay far away from law enforcement!

[RamboLiberal]

114. DubyaSux - I'm with you on this one - too many armchair warriors

here sometimes who have probably never taken any self-defense training or had any tactical handgun training. This guy took pepper spray and it didn't faze him and he looked to be a big dude. I've done knife disarm training and it's not that damn easy to do. In the nice friendly confines of the dojo it's amazing how many times in trying to do one would've been seriously wounded. Even jumping him as a group one of the cops could've been killed or seriously wounded.

Any of you know the 21-foot rule? A knife wielding attacker can close that distance before an officer can shoot. If he lunged toward a cop, yes they are going to shoot. And yes, whomever has a good target acquisition will open up until the suspect is down.

And I love the fools who watch too much TV and think a cop can shoot to wound. They are taught with good reason to shoot center mass. Shooting to wound puts them in danger and also puts bystanders in danger if they miss and that bullet keeps on truckin' down the street.

Be nice if they had less lethal weapons, but usually the street cops aren't carrying bean bag shotguns, and in this instance from the cops I saw in the photo it looks like they didn't have Taser holsters so hence they probably didn't have a Taser.

There were plenty of witnesses, so I hope the court system in New Orleans sorts this out and if the cops overreacted then yes, discipline them. And yes, the NO cops are far from a good department.

Another big factor in these cases unfortunately is how the mentally ill are being turned out on the streets and not taken care of by the cheap-ass Repuke administrations and congress.

I just get sick of some of you armchair experts always immmediately judging against cops before the facts are sorted out.

[americanstranger]

117. A question for you...

Be nice if they had less lethal weapons, but usually the street cops aren't carrying bean bag shotguns, and in this instance from the cops I saw in the photo it looks like they didn't have Taser holsters so hence they probably didn't have a Taser.

Are we to conclude from this that since they're carrying no non-lethal weapons, that any situation like this is to be met with no less than lethal force?

Let's remember that this situation went on long enough for the cameraman to hear what was going on, go and get his camera, come back and start taping until the action moved out of his view.

I'd assume that more units were arriving during the time the guy was taping (as more officers join the scene). Why would none of them have non-lethal weapons?

It seems weird that a major metropolitan police department would work that way.

-as

[RamboLiberal]

120. I got the impression that the NO PD was not the best equipped

and I wonder if they may have lost some of their equipment in the flooding. Like I said, let's follow the story and see the evidence that's produced. We don't have the full story and there were a lot of civilian witnesses. If this was not a justified shooting, then I hope the cops are disciplined. But I'm not going to call it unjustified based on the story so far.

[americanstranger]

128. I had the thought about the flooding as well. n/t

-as

[Polemonium]

126. Good grief...again

One knife wielding freak, is surrounded by many trained police officers (I thought it was eight, but someone mentioned 15). I've lived in cities where officers have handled more dangerous situations, safely, and without killing anyone. And I have been in worse scraps than this, and we all came out unscathed (you can not tell me that NOPD does not have better training than me). The fact is that they had plenty of men on the ground to sort this one out without resorting to lethal force. They failed, either due to a lack of will, or a lack of training.

[Occulus]

127. Bullshit.

"Any of you know the 21-foot rule? A knife wielding attacker can close that distance before an officer can shoot."

Fucking apologetic ignorant bullshit.

Shame on you for trying to make us believe such utter baseless tripe.

[RamboLiberal]

135. That fucking ignorant bullshit has been proven in training

over and over again. I have 27 years of martial arts training and have done this type of training. Plus have done several tactical handgun courses with some very good trainers. You are the ignorant one!

[Occulus]

156. Only if you're a wimp.

I just spoke to someone who has had more recent training and was told that 21 foot rule was thrown out years and years ago because it's simply inaccurate.

You're spreading disinformation.

edit: the actual quote I was given was, "well, most cops these days are wimps."

This, from yet another pig.

[crankybubba]

215. when someone tries to come at you with a knife or other

edged weapon get back with me. I'm calling b.s. on you getting any of your info from law enforcement. you have an agenda against cops and are just stirring the pot. go ahead be a macho man and confront someone with a knife unarmed. the only thing you will accomplish is removing yourself from the gene pool. not necessarily a bad thing.

[DubyaSux]

147. Although...

...I support your right to disagree, I completely reject your ignorance as a basis for your dissent.

I served in the USMC and was taught everything about security - including the 21 foot rule. I was taught how to survive and trying to reason with a knife-wielding nutjob was not one of the methods. The 21 foot rule is very well known.

Nobody wants to kill another person. But nobody wants to be responsible for the injury or death of another. The entire situation was very unsafe and very volatile. It could have been eliminated simply by dropping the knife. To suggest that any of the police officers involved should have opened themselves up to serious injury to make you feel better is absurd. The burden is not on them to create a safe situation at the expense of their own safety.

There are a million things that could have happened. The situation could have been resolved without the death of anyone. Or one or more cops could have been killed. Can I suggest you become a cop and be the one to disable people without the use of deadly force? Since you are obviously an expert on these tactics, you should be welcomed with open arms on the police force.

[Occulus]

154. Again- apologetic bullshit.

"I was taught how to survive and trying to reason with a knife-wielding nutjob was not one of the methods."

I didn't say he had to be reasoned with, I only said tyhere was no reason for him to be shot dead. BIG, McHuge difference.

"The 21 foot rule is very well known."

This is the very first time, despite multiple discussion with many law enforcement personnel about this very sort of thing, that I have ever even heard of such a rule. No officer has ever, in my 30 years of life, even alluded to such, so much as indirectly. It must be a very new thing.

"To suggest that any of the police officers involved should have opened themselves up to serious injury to make you feel better is absurd."

I get told by pig apologists that they are paid to do exactly that.

"The burden is not on them to create a safe situation at the expense of their own safety."

I have been told, over and over again, BY police, that that is precisely their job.

"The situation could have been resolved without the death of anyone."

Exactly my point.

"Or one or more cops could have been killed."

They are paid to take that risk, every single day.

"Can I suggest you become a cop and be the one to disable people without the use of deadly force?"

No, because I don't like violating people's rights and ignoring the laws that defend them. The only treatment I've ever received from pigs has been negative, even when *I* have called *them* about theft or injury. In fact, I have been physically injured BY a pig.

Stop apologizing. You're getting nowhere and convincing noone.

[crankybubba]

213. pure unadulterated b.s.

"Or one or more cops could have been killed."

They are paid to take that risk, every single day.

No they are not. tis is an unnecessary risk. cops are NOT paid to take those types of risks. you are talking out of your a@$ on this subject.

[Evergreen Emerald]

131. The 21 foot rule is accurate

People here are minimizing the dangerousness of the guy.

[RamboLiberal]

146. Here's a link to an article on the 21 foot rule

http://www.policeone.com/columnists_internal.asp?view=94340&vid=102828

The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.

Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.

We did a drill last year at a state tournament. Now I shoot probably a lot more than the majority of police officers. From a ready position - gun out of holster at a fairly close distance we had to put 1 round through the center of a target simulating center mass of a body. Took me 1.05 seconds to get 1 shot off. A former Secret Service agent did it in 1.22. A Master shooter did the fastest in .70 seconds.

Now we were shooting at a cardboard target, not a charging man with a knife.

[Occulus]

157. The article itself admits it's a controversial policy.

I've been told, tonight, in the context of this very incident, by an actual pig, that the rule has been thrown out, and in fact was thrown out years ago.

[crankybubba]

202. wrong...

the 21 foot rule is standard. plus in an edged weapons defense school it is taught that if you go hand to hand with a knife weilding subjcet you WILL get cut or stabbed.A knife only has to go 1/8 to 1/4 inch into certain vital parts of the human body to be able to cause a FATAL wound. Much b.s. and misinformation in this thread.

[mountainvue]

164. None of those eyewitnesses

mention seeing him lunge at the police.

[Rex]

179. Well then I guess the guy deserved to be shot 10 times.

That will teach em. I love how some people on this thread take my idea to a silly level. And hollow points? Hollow points leave huge holes as exit wounds and are not humane forms of ammo. Sure blow his leg off, do something, anything but kill him. It was unnessecary. I saw the video and granted we don't see the end, it still looked quite easy to take the man down between 8 armed and well trained officers but that's just me. Obviously some people just can't see it that way. I've shot plenty of pistols in my life and can easily hit a target at 20 yards. They were a lot closer than 20 yards.

[crankybubba]

210. so...

Just how many fired thier weapons?? Do you know for sure. This is not T.v. a person does not immediatly drop to the ground when shot. a person can still stab and kill you after being shot. going hand to hand with an armed suspect is foolish and will get you killed. Hollow points generally expand and do not exit. Blow his leg off??? like I said this is not t.v. or the movies. YOu are NOt trained to shoot at limbs. you are trained to shoot center mass to stop the actions of the suspect. How ever many shots that takes. You do not take 1 shot evaluate and then shoot again You do not have that luxury.

[Rex]

253. They had that luxury, why don't you go watch the video

before wasting time? Okay one more time, to shoot the guy in the leg would have been easy...don't rush him after shooting him (what a noob), evaluate the situation first. Maybe shoot him again. The whole point I'm making is that he didn't have to die, they could have diabled the man between 8 trained cops. Now if you don't agree with me then to bad, it is my opinion and it won't change. FWIW hollow points make a cone shaped exit wound, at least my 38 does when I shoot rotten logs. What the cops did was wrong and no amount of excuses by you or anyone else will change that.

[crankybubba]

260. you obviously know nothing

about police procedure do you?? would you rather an officeer or two got killed or injured and you as a taxpayer have to pay for the medical and death benefits for the officers. tell us what training do you have that qualifies you as an expert as to what the police should and should not have done. (watching reno 911 does'nt count)

[Rex]

268. Far more than you do, evidently.

I guess it is to hard for you and 7 other cops to shoot a guy in the leg at almost point blank range. :eyes:

[crankybubba]

did'nt you say you were a cop

then answer the question above. or are you b.s.ing us.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carolab]

132. I agree. This was completely unnecessary.

This man was murdered brutally and in cold blood.

They could have tranquilized him or tasered him.

There must have been at least 15 cops with guns on him in the videotape.

I couldn't believe my eyes.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[classics]

152. Oh I see the L-WORD

Why is it so many of these stories where massively unnessicary force always contain the L-Word.

Does saying the L-word make it ok to kill anyone?

I always recall hearing the L-word used, even when later it was shown it didnt happen, on tape.

Hmm.

[MrSlayer]

163. Moral of the story: Drop the friggin knife when the police tell you to.

If you don't put it down you're going to get shot. Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

[me b zola]

182. comply or die

Yeah, lets think of other governments where human rights reigned under such ideas----ooops, there are none. Comply or die is not a hallmark of a healthy society. It has, though, "worked well" for some of the most brutal dictators. I'm just sayin.

[MrSlayer]

183. Ridiculous argument.

It's not an all or nothing thing. It's not like the police were being unreasonable in demanding that this guy drop the knife. It is not as if this guy was executed for jaywalking. What would you have them do, just allow this dude to slash his way through them? 99.9% of the time, if you don't make them, the police will not shoot you. This has nothing to do with living under a dictatorship and everything to do with common sense. If you attack the police you are not going to win.

[americanstranger]

191. That type of argument abounds in this thread.

It's not an all or nothing thing.

In this thread alone, I've seen people argue that

1. Police could either kill the guy or be killed.
2. Police could either carry one non-lethal weapon (pepper spray) or be 'weighed down with gadgets'
3. People contributing to this thread either back the decision to kill this guy or 'hate police.'
4. That prople 'sitting behind their computers' either back the decision to kill this guy, or keep their opinion to themselves (allowing the other people 'sitting behind their computers' to voice their opinions, of course!).

I'm sick of this type of argument. We're fed these false choices by the government every goddam day ('Either with us or against us,' etc.), and they do nothing but stall debate.

After following this thread for two days, I'm still completely unconvinced that the cops had no choice but to kill this guy.

Does that mean I hate cops? Nope. I know a few cops, and I had family in Philly that were city cops.

Does it mean that I don't want cops to 'go home to their families' at the end of a shift? Nope. Everyone should have that right.

It does mean that I believe that somewher between 10 and fifteen cops had this guy contained (surrounded), and should have been able to come up with another way of handling the situation than putting the guy down like a dog.

Other police departments are able to do it (as I said in an earlier post, I saw two NYPD officers disarm a homeless guy with a knife once in the Village). If two cops in New York City could do it, why couldn't 15 cops in New Orleans do it?

The NOPD chief said this morning that it looks like the cops acted within regulations in killing this guy. But I still can't shake the feeling that they took the path of least resistance in this case, and it sucks.

There are a lot of stressed out, depressed people in NOLA these days. If faced with more situations like this, is the NOPD's response going to be to shoot them all?

-as

[Puglover]

240. I agree whole heartedly Stranger

Sadly however I think your well thought out post is wasted here. How can you discuss this with some of the people on this thread who are saying (unbelievably) that killing the person was preferable to sending in a dog because the dog may have been injured. I am simply amazed.

[Rex]

255. I'm just glad none of these people are cops!

Word of caution to people with mental disorders; don't ever go out in public without being medicated! If you do and start acting strange, the cops will SHOOT YOU DEAD NO QUESTIONS ASKED. There won't be an evaluation period, it will be comply or die! What a fucked up world we live in.

[crankybubba]

256. when confronted with a person with a deadly

weapon would you evaluate first??? that has to be the dumbest post in this thread and thats saying a lot here. what training do you have to comment on police procedure??

[Rex]

258. Your response is funny

No you're right, I would just shoot the person dead without a second thought. :eyes: What planet are you from again? What training do YOU have to comment on police procedure?

[crankybubba]

261. how about

10 years as a sworn law enforcement officer and certified police instructor. you turn

[Rex]

267. 11 years as a sworn law enforcement officer

wow what are the odds that I have one more year experience than you? :sarcasm:

[crankybubba]

271. well tell me then

you should know.. where does the taser fall on the use of force continuim

you are full of b.s. and are not worth any more of my time. you are not even entertaining anymore.

[Rex]

275. LOL

Just slink away, quietly. FWIW, noob, you shouldn't give your real-life qualifications online. It is considered bad form because no one will believe you. Didn't you learn anything in AOL chatrooms? You're not worth the time of day IMO.

[crankybubba]

277. got owned

and can't answer the question huh... you don't know where I live or work so it does'nt matter. bye then

[Jed Dilligan]

170. "Where does all this COP HATRED come from?"

Funny question recurring in this thread.

It can't be coming from the media, because all media teaches us to love and worship The Man.

Could it possibly... be... people's ACTUAL EXPERIENCES WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT that makes them HATE COPS!???

Could it also be that reading stories about cases like Abner Louima and Ahmadou Diallou make us wary of untrammeled police powers?

I'd like some answers from the "cops r grreat" crowd. How could most of DU be wrong about this when we're right about Bush? Can you point me to the propaganda that misled us?

[classics]

171. Look at it this way.

Cops have the best PR machine in the world calling them heros 24/7, no matter what they do.

Yet still they have a bad rap... yep, it must be the media!

[Jed Dilligan]

175. Exactly my point.

Turn on the TV, you have almost a 100% chance of seeing a hero cop on some station.

No, see, we're all wrong about cops because we haven't BEEN cops... :sarcasm:

I've studied cops, done ride-alongs, what I've seen is conservative republicans burning a lot of gasoline, eating, yukking it up, hassling unarmed poor people for non-crimes, and meanwhile talking about their fine suburban homes and their plans for a cushy retirement.

[anotherdrew]

219. truth

plus, EVERYONE risks their lives at work, see:

http://www.nsc.org/library/rept2000.htm

Deaths and Injuries in the Workplace

* There were 5,300 workplace fatalities in 2001 due to unintentional injuries.
* There were 3.9 deaths per 100,000 workers in 2001.
* On the job, 3.9 million American workers suffered disabling injuries in 2001.
* Motor vehicle crashes accounted for 2,200 of the 5,300 workplace fatalities.
* The agriculture industry accounted for 700 deaths and 130,000 disabling injuries in 2001. Agriculture workers had the second highest death rate among the major industry divisions.
* Work injuries cost Americans $132.1 billion in 2001. That amounts to $970 per worker.
* Nearly 9 out of 10 deaths and about three-fifths of the disabling injuries suffered by American workers in 2001 occurred off-the-job.

====

(See that almost 4 million people disabled by their jobs in 2001. If that statistic is correct and typical, we must be running out of non-disbaled workers... possible, but seems strange)

[Jed Dilligan]

223. It's just that knife-wielding maniacs capture the public's attention

More than falling hammers or clouds of pesticide. More essential workers than cops (farm laborers, maintenance) die every day and no one is out there campaigning for sympathy for them.

[LisaL]

228. That, and the fact that it was videotaped.

[Robb]

247. Ph.D's, ride-alongs, and knife fights

...Where do you find the time? :D

Welcome to DU. I'm in astronaut school, when my supermodel girlfriend is in Milan. :hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

257. Yes, I've led an interesting life.

Many people here have.

Got point?

[crankybubba]

262. maybe in your own mind

but not in real life it's all b.s. in other words prove it.

[Jed Dilligan]

263. What, and reveal my identity to the likes of you?

I think not.

[crankybubba]

265. yep b.s. all the way hahahah n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

266. It's funny to watch you laughing

at the untruth of things that are true, but I doubt you're really laughing, I bet you are on the verge of hypertension because you are used to being able to beat and punish anyone who defies your noble opinions.

So, any links to why post 206 is "b.s." yet?

[crankybubba]

269. you are a joke

and I don't really care about 206 my little bi96h.

[Jed Dilligan]

270. You do realize

you are still calling me a "bitch" even if you spell it funny.

[crankybubba]

272. keep on coming when I call you.....n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

273. Sure thing, this is fun

I think you're beating me in the "deleted post" department....

:rofl:

[Name removed]

274. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

278. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

264. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrBloodmoney]

184. I hope the family sues the pants off the department

then they'll train a little harder on the use of non-lethal force.

[crankybubba]

203. You don't face a threat with a deadly weapon with a

non leathal one. that is pure stupidity. you show you ignorance of the subject here.

[anotherdrew]

252. you're a fool with no honor if you would kill so easily

this isn't a technical discussion of when and how to murder non-cooperative people. If you're not willing to take risks, don't take the job., Please feel free to quit.

[LisaL]

212. I love how we expect that an individual can be allowed to do

anything, even attack people with a knife, and yet somehow be a victim, leading his relatives to expect monetary reward in case of his untimely demise.
What a stupid freaking society I live in.

[anotherdrew]

249. BUT HE DIDN'T _attack_ ANYONE WITH THE KNIFE. he was just "wielding" it

Look, the dead man was stupid/foolish/drugged whatever, he should have dropped the knife, clearly...

BUT...

I would expect more from profesional law enforcement than that with 10 or 15 cops the only option here was to open up in a fucking HAIL of gunfire! If you can't understand that too damn bad. If this really seems like it's A-OK to so many people I guess you all just don't expect much from your police. It's not just these particular cops though, I blame policing in america in general for being SO damn one track minded. and why 10 SHOTS, why can't one of them say "OK, I'm going to take the shot, don't everyone else open up..."

If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail

[KamaAina]

276. And if they win, they'd collect a string of Mardi Gras beads

Even when I lived in N.O. around 1990, the city had come up with a novel method of balancing its always precarious budget: it simply failed to pay its legal judgments. That's right. You could sue the City of New Orleans for any amount you'd like, and even win. The city's response: "We don't have the money, so we aren't going to pay you a red cent. Too bad, so sad." They were probably figuring, "What's the court gonna do, repossess the entire city?" And this was back when they actually had a little money! Anyone suing N.O. today is pretty much SOL.

[slackmaster]

192. Man carrying screwdriver shot, killed by Carlsbad, CA police...

...National media strangely silent.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051228/news_7m28freeway.html

:eyes:

[crankybubba]

214. a screwdriver is considered an edged weapon

like a knife. you can be stabbed and killed quite easily with one.

[Jed Dilligan]

199. What, no cop-lovers wanna take on 170?

Can't answer it can you?

:P :P :P

[Bacchus39]

216. rubber bullets anyone??

sorry, I don't necessarily favor the cops but I can see using deadly force in a life threatening situation. but this case was an overreaciton needless to say.

why not try shooting him with a few rounds of rubber bullets before using lead??

I bet 10 or 15 shots would have brought him down pretty quick and without killing him.

[slackmaster]

222. Rubber bullets are specialized weapons for crowd control

They're designed to be fired at the ground, then bounce around and bruise multiple people in a chaotic manner. They are dangerous to bystanders and not at all approprate for subduing an individual armed suspect who is refusing to cooperate.

I like "sticky foam" weapons.

[Bacchus39]

224. if they can shoot a lead bullet at him, what is wrong with rubber?

I fail to see the difference other than with one you are sure to wind up dead.

the police overreacted.

what about dogs??? Jesus there are several methods they could have used short of shooting him 10 times.

[LisaL]

226. I rather the police shoot and kill the guy, then this guy kills a dog.

Why should the life of an innocent dog be endangered?

[slackmaster]

231. Rubber bullets bounce around and are dangerous to bystanders

Lead bullets fired into a person generally do not endanger bystanders, at least if an appropriate type of ammunition is used.

A "rubber bullet" is not simply a rubber version of a lead projectile. They're large and heavy, and fired from either a 12-gauge shotgun or 40 mm grenade launcher. They're made of the same material as a hockey puck and will bounce around for a long time. They can kill people too.

A dog might have been a good idea.

[crankybubba]

234. a rubber bullet can also be deadly at close range like

a real bullet

[LisaL]

235. Police dog is considered an officer, actually.

Quite recently, a couple of policemen were pursuing the armed suspect. The guy hid from them, so they send the dog after him. Of course the guy kills a dog, so then the police shoots the guy. I mean, WTF is the point of endangering the life of an animal like that? They still killed the suspect in the end, and the dog was dead too.

[Bacchus39]

241. ok, a police pig then

then if he kills it they can go have bacon withe their coffee and donuts.

Jesus, the point being that I don't think they had to kill him

and yes, I know that the rubber bullets can kill as well. still, the alternative they chose was the most extreme.

[Puglover]

242. self delete

meant to hit alert not post.

[americanstranger]

248. A dog's life is more valuable than a human's.

Got it.

I'm done with this thread. I truly can't believe that on a supposedly liberal web site, we're valuing a dog's life over a human's.

-as

[anotherdrew]

250. sure, I'll have one

a net would have done wonders

[maddezmom]

279. locking

Discussion has ceased to be productive.