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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 07:30 AM
Original message
U.S. buyers more open to foreign cars, survey says
http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf...

Tuesday, December 13, 2005

Just as domestic automakers are struggling to cut costs and increase their withering share of the U.S. market, an increasing number of consumers no longer care about "Buying American," according to a new study...

"This is a big social change in a short period of time," he said...

The study comes as Americans are buying a record number of vehicles built by foreign automakers...

Many of those vehicles are built in the United States, however. Between 1982 and 2003, foreign automakers have invested almost $28 billion in automotive plants in the United States, employing about 63,000 workers, according to a study by the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich.



Agency downgrades GM's credit rating

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf...

Tuesday, December 13, 2005

New York- Standard & Poor's cut its ratings on General Motors Corp. deeper into junk status on Monday, citing increased skepticism about the troubled automaker's ability to revitalize North American operations.

The rating agency cut GM's corporate credit rating by two notches to "B" from "BB-minus." S&P removed the company from CreditWatch, but maintained a negative outlook.

General Motors' debt is rated noninvestment grade, or junk, by all three major credit rating agencies. The company has been contending with soaring employee and commodity costs, as well as a decline in sales because of higher gasoline prices.

Moody's Investors Service and Fitch Ratings rate GM's debt at "B1" and "B-plus." Companies whose debt is rated at high-yield status often face higher borrowing costs...

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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. GM bet the farm on bigger and bigger SUVs. While Toyota
and Ford were coming out with hybrids, GM was looking at profits per Hummer and laughing at them. Sow. Reap.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Ding ding! Winner!
I've discussed this very topic on sites with car focused forums. The pro-US manufacturer folk all poo-pooed my statements that there was a growing trend back to smaller, more efficient vehicles, and that US manufacturers better start developing and building them, or else they'll be looking at the mid 70's all over again. They all said that was nonsense, that American car buyers want BIG cars, that small cars just sit and rot on the dealers lots, that Hybrids are a waste of development dollars, yada-yada.

In this case, you can not reap what you have never sown. US automakers, GM in particular, have been nailing down their own coffin lids.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. The management of the American automakers....
... like most who are stuck with American economic culture (which has a time horizon of about 3 months) consistently make the wrong decisions because they are always focused on the short term rather than the longer.

It takes, even now as I understand, 5 years to bring a new car model from concept to showroom. By abandoning all efforts to build smaller cars, once again the American manufacturers get caught with their pants around their ankles and no way to satisfy consumer demand.

The only silver lining is that autos are now a global business with foreign manufacturers building here (and surprise, surprise with similar quality to same cars built elsewhere) and American automakers own substantial portions of some of the Japanese carmakers.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. Boy, ya got that right.
A withered little octogenarian Japanese CEO will sit there with a straight face and tell you about the hundred year plan for his company. Americans only think about the current quarter.

Worshiping the immediate is responsible for much of our cultural greatness, and the "get-rich-quick" and "getting-away-with-it" mentality fuel lots of dynamic changes, but the current folly of looting the past while borrowing against the future so today's some big party will do us in yet.

Toyota spent years developing the Prius, and never sold one in this country until they'd gone through a few model years and really gotten rid of the bugs. They knew that a new propulsion system would be met with skepticism, and they wanted to put their best tire forward.

This country just doesn't seem to get it. Couple this with employer-provided health care, and it's hard to compete even if the proctologist came by with the head tongs and got us straightened out.

GM is a classic disaster of idiocy and greed.
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howmad1 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. And, they make crap cars.
Every murkin car I ever owned turned out to be a peice of junk. I've owned nothing but foreign cars since 1985 and never, ever had a problem with them.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. My GM American cars have all been great. 40 years of cars, including
a used 1963 Corvair - my first car.
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InsultComicDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #33
51. We've had nothing but Hondas and Toyotas since about then
...probably even earlier.

Looking at getting a new car soon, might get a Nissan this time.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
55. But that's really just part of the story
There is a much larger picture than just the type of vehicles the different companies are producing. GM is giving every indication that it is intentionally driving itself into the ground so that it can 1) file for bankruptcy, 2) renogiate or completely eliminate pension and healthcare obligation, 3) move even more operations overseas, or 4) any combination of the above.

And Ford isn't too far behind if GM's actions pay off.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Duh. You mean quality matters? damn. never would have guessed.
I used to own a VW. Lasted for 10 years. Before than a used volvo. 10 years. Now, a GM small pickmeuptruck that sucks and a smaller Ford SUVomit that continually has problems. Actually they both have problems, so much that I have sworn off all US autos ever again. EVER. Or should I say NEVER. I only hope some US car builder reads this post.
But I have suspicions about their ability to read.

Shoulda kept the VW.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. Similar experience. Ranger started falling apart at 75k miles.
Utter garbage Ford. Broke down 1st week I owned it (electrical problem). Treated like sh*t by the dealer where I had it towed for repairs (not where I bought it).

Never again. In my college days had an Isuzu pickup that went over 200k miles, then sold it for $500.

Too bad for the workers - it is not their fault. The giant US auto companies have been acting against the interests of the Nation and the People.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Maybe you should have...
... but whatever you do don't buy one now. The newer model VWs (Passats, Jettas) are well known to have multiple expensive premature failures. They are crap.
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Mokito Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. VW Golf series 1 through 3
My girlfriend's VW Golf is 14 years(!) old, has 200k+ (km) on the counter and still spins like a kitten.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. My EX had an early 80's...
... diesel Rabbit that I thought would never die. In fact, it didn't we sold it first :)
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. They still make 'em.
> Shoulda kept the VW.

They still make 'em. ;-)

But I know what you mean: my '78 Scirocco was cheap, simple, and
routinely got 35-40 MPG. No modern imported-to-America VeeDub is
in all those categories.

Tesha
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. repug friend bought a big GM SUV---nothing but problems from the beginning
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Dissent Is Patriotic Donating Member (793 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. I have a Honda...
It breaks my hurt that I am hurting Union people, but my car is super great on gas, great on emissions and I have never had any mechanical problems. Basically just oil changes. On the other hand my Mom stuck with a Ford, and my God, what a nightmare. I don't have the kind of money you need to constantly fix the American cars.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yep. Count me in.
Edited on Tue Dec-13-05 08:37 AM by Orsino
When it came time to buy new cars, this year, finally, my wife and I wanted hybrids. Since we've got no use for an SUV, or almost none, that eliminated the Escape hybrid, the only domestic option. Toyota and Honda have been making them for years, so they got our dollars. I'm in a Prius, and my wife's in the hybrid Accord (her second since a couple of semis totaled the first a few months ago; she didn't get a scratch, and so knew exactly which car to buy again).

Detroit was missing in action. Though it hurts not to buy American in these times, how the hell else were we going to point the way? Others have pointed out that "foreign" cars are often built here. That's not yet true of the hybrids, but look for the '07 Camry!
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. ditto--love my 40 mpg Civic
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. What exactly is a foreign car any more any how?
Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's, Mitsubishi's, Subaru's, Hyundai's, BMW's and even Mercedes are being made in America and Canada. Meanwhile many of the so call American cars are being made in Mexico, South Korea and Canada. And even cars supposedly built in the USA are filled with parts from all over the world.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Is a Dodge Charger an American car? After all, the company
is Diamler-Chrysler, not Chrysler-Diamler...
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InsultComicDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
52. Indeed
I was about to ask the same question
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oc2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. My Toyota Tundra was assembled in Alabama, the engine in CA.

so, as far as I am concerned the old 'buy American' when corporations are exporting jobs is now a hollow empty statement.
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ny_liberal Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. Assembled --- NOT made :)
huge difference
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Orangepeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
54. then isn't Ford made in Mexico?
they whole idea of an American car is a myth. They are all international.

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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. I used to have a buy american policy for years to support the us worker
But why bother when they send so many jobs out of country.

American corporations cut their own throat for quick profits. As far as I am concerned, they can rot in hell.

I'll never buy their products ever again.

If I feel this way, you can imagine how many others do.

Sell your stinking crap to your outsourced employees you f-ing traitors.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Don't hold back..
... I hate it when folks dance around what they want to say!

Hey, I agree with you. There is no such thing as an American automaker any more, only American management. And to say it sucks ass would be to belittle ass suckers everywhere. Fuck the whole bunch of them.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. alot of people think american institutions are bs now in general
Edited on Tue Dec-13-05 08:55 AM by natrat
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. Beware of where that worker is at!
Many GM vehicles were manufactured in Canada, while Japanese vehicles such as the Subaru, Honda Accord, and the Toyota Camry are manufactured in the United States.
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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. and in other news, Ford announcing the Everest, "super sized SUV"
http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/12/news/fortune500/ford/in...

quoting a bit:

Just two months after it pulled the plug on the massive Ford Excursion, the Detroit News said the automaker is preparing to unveil a vehicle tentatively called the "Ford Everest."

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. just waiting for the landslide off the mountain.
before Ford completely collapses.

GM is already there.
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trogdor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Is that Galaxy-class or Sovereign-class?
And can you go Warp 11?
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. another gas guzzler, unless you need something like this for your work
it is beyond stupidity to have one at $80/fill
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
24. and in still in other news.
GM to Nearly Triple India Production

BANGALORE, India - General Motors Corp. said Tuesday it plans to nearly triple the number of cars it produces in India to meet growing demand in the South Asian country.

The announcement came just weeks after the company said it would slash 30,000 jobs and scale back production in the United States.

GM previously had announced plans to increase production in India from more than double the 25,000 cars a year it currently produces in the country. Lawrence Burns, vice president for research and development, said Tuesday that the number of vehicles made in India would eventually reach 80,000.

However, Burns provided few details of GM's plans for India, a country of 1 billion people with a fast growing economy that many Western manufacturers have long viewed as a potentially huge market.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_indi...


Don't forget BUY AMERICAN! :wtf:
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. i thought GM was bankrupt - but not a problem when you're outsourcing
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Ganja Ninja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. They need relief from their pension obligations ..
so they can outsource jobs to India.
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Jamison Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Gee, how perfect for them.
GM can pay their line workers $2.50 an hour in India with no benefits or pension & get away with it. :puke:
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. not outsource - build small cars that sell there
that is why they are tripling their investment there.

and cutting by a third here.
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
40. let them sell their cars to their cars in india
USA companies that hire offshore and move HQ's offshore are traitors as far as I am concerned, let them die.

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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. I swore I never would buy a Toyota a couple years ago
then after shopping around that's what I bought last month. I wanted a smaller pickup to replace my 1996 Ranger and no American (in name company) makes one even remotely competitive with the Japanese automakers. I looked at the Ranger and Ford hasn't updated them for years, I tried the Chevy Colorado and it came standard with a bolt or something rattling like hell in the door. The Dodge is a gas hog and is now produced buy Daimler. The impression I got from the US vehicles was they make there smaller trucks as a cheap entry level trucks to try to force you into buying a full size more profitable gas hog. Well myself I wanted a (quality) smaller vehicle and I required a smaller vehicle that would fit in my garage and of the ones I looked at the Tacoma and the Nissan Frontier were the only ones that fit the bill.
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SuperWonk Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Wow...
I am always bummed by how much people give it to american automakers.
But, frankly, when I take a step back, it seems to me that things are not quite as bad as they seem.
Everyone knows that american companies have made some dubious decisions in the name of staying competitive.
But I am of the opinion that the game is far from over, and progress is being made with safety, quality and more hybrid production.
Time will tell.


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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. There is an entire generation here completely fooled by marketing
Edited on Fri Dec-23-05 11:23 PM by DainBramaged
and over one or two high millage vehicles, so be it. They only see what they want to see. But when it's time to move up to something larger than the egg they drive, they'll wonder what ever happened to choice in this country. I always see these references to cars from the 80's and how bad the current crop of cars from GM and Ford are. Or "bad cars" now without a year reference or if the car was bought new or used, and exactly what the problems were.

Generalization, I only thought the Right did that. Sounds almost like ConJobSpeak here. Basing an opinion on past sins. Tisk tisk. The old Reich-wing "Clinton did it" syndrome but turned on American car manufacturers. 2005 Toyota Camry SE V6, best selling car in America, Gas Mileage:21 mpg city / 29 mpg hwy, but your mileage may vary, (a lot). Wow, it is right there with all of the American cars in it's class, but a little cheaper. And you can read some interesting reviews at Yahoo Aotos if you care to take the time.

Buy more Japanese cars and trucks. Every Japanese car or truck you buy (or Korean for that matter) puts an American worker out of a job. A UNION worker. Oh, and if you're so enamored with Toyota, why is their new factory being built in Canada and NOT America?

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William Bloode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Lets see here,
I was fooled by my 1st car. I hated it! My dad made me buy an 81 Datsun 210 when i got my 1st car. I still had this car untill very recently, she is now crushed as she had over 300,000+ miles and was quite ugly(and n one wanted to drive her anymore) some 27yrs after i bought her used. Never had any work done other than typical belts, hoses and routine maint, and 1 clutch kit.

My Isuzu Imark Diesel, only had too fill her up once every 2-3wks. Also 250,000+ miles, with general maint, and 1 glow plug. Sold her for $300 and the feller still drives her.

Have an old 85' Subaru wagon, she has over 200,000 miles, again only regular maint and 1 clutch kit, and i do believe she did have to have her valves ground once as well.

On the other hand, my wife #1 had a Beretta (91), had 2 engines and needed a 3rd in about 175,000 miles total. Utter crap!

She also had a Ford Tempo(94), again crap due to engine failure in just under 100,000. Utter junk!

My wife #2 bought a Cavalier brand new in '99. Piece of crap blew the engine in under 65,000 miles. Uber shit car!

My son bought him a new Chrystler Sebring(98), he had to have 2 transmissions in less than 40,000 miles.

My fathers Ford Ranger(99) had persistant clutch and tranny problems begining around 40,000. Never got anything but shit from the dealership about the problems.

I now drive a Subaru Outback, 98,000 miles with no problems yet other than routine maint. My wife #1 has a Kia Spectra(99) 80,000 with no problems so far, and still has warranty to spare.

Wife #2 is driving a Kia Optima(02), not a single problem yet with right around 60,000.

Now i will have to give it up too 2 American cars in the family. My Dad's old 71 Ford f-150 is still going strong today with over 250,000. My Grandmothers 84 Buick Electra still going strong with well over 200,000.

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. I have only owned Chevrolet's since 1977 (except for Turbo Regal)
With normal maintenance, including the highly modified ones, not one major failure, not one. And my current 1998 Blazer is 113000 miles old with no major problems. AND it is modified. SO to those who think that American cars are pieces of shit, I beg to differ. If you follow the maintenance schedules and get little problems fixed (hmmm, that noise when I apply the brakes, wonder if it means anything) maybe some folks won't bitch. ANd impressions without knowledge (my Dad's car sucked, yadayadayada) don't mean squat.

I'm done in this thread, some people will bash American cars without ever owning one. Remember, the question was, why is Toyota building their new plant in Canada.

Every American car bought saves a Union job.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. they are building in canada due to health care and education.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Excuse me, my Toyota was built in Fremont California
and has 70% US content. Now why is the new Ford Fusion made in Mexico with 100% Mexican content? Which one is the American car?
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InsultComicDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. My Avalon
was born in Kentucky.
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NNguyenMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-18-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. Affordable, fuel efficient, aesthetically pleasing car is what I would buy
..if GM or Ford were willing to make some.
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SuperWonk Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I think...
That is what a lot of people want: a top notch American car. And I think that that is the way things are moving.

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The-Cynic Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. American Made?
I had some American made Jasmine Rice last nite, my first nite back in the US since I left to serve in the UN peace corps (cough, cough, peace, cough, cough, we had big guns).....anyway, the rice was horrible, it really was. American made rice is one thing, yes, but now cars, and appliances? Come on, that would save too much money, create a balanced import/export reciept and overall it would just be horrible enough---it'd create jobs! American jobs!

That's too much, the truth is, and I'm getting off topic to say this, but the days of the factory laborour are over here in america, now if you don't have a college (4 year) degree, your better off giving up and filing for welfare (but that'll be gone in 4 years, thank you George W!), so tying this back to the topic, its not the way things are going as you put it. Things and goods to be built are out but they are coming in---only already assembled, the only real grip we have on our auto production in America is how it gets to the dealer from the warehouse, (American Truckers).

American Made, thats' the biggest joke, you know what? The label that says American Made was probably made in America but if you peel that sticker back, you'll find a stamped print "Made Somewhere Else".

And thats it.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-23-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. My '87 Camry has 233,000 miles on it now...
and still runs great. Has a few minor age-related quirks, but still gets 30-34 mpg at 70 mph and everything still works. Mine was made in Japan, but the current ones are U.S. made.

Whenever I get around to getting a new car, I'm looking at a Volvo S40T5. Decent mileage, good acceleration and handling (important to me), 6-speed manual, good safety features, built-in child booster seats (!), and great looks.

The crazy thing is, Volvo is owned by Ford, but there aren't any Fords that really appeal to me. GM/Ford just don't seem to make any performance-oriented upscale compacts; the decent performers (Cobalt SS, Ion Red Line, Focus SVT) are cheap-looking and unrefined, like they were designed for teenagers.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
41. I want the SMART CAR!!!


Introducing SMART, the car that redefines mobility. ZAP is proud to soon offer one of the most fuel-efficient, gas-powered cars on the planet. This new car has been designed as the car of the future with many "smart" features that address today's crowded urban traffic and rising energy prices. Don't be fooled by its charming, futuristic look, the SMART will surprise you with its handling, its stylish, roomy interior for 2 passengers, and its innovative design. After taking Europe by storm, ZAP is bringing the Americanized version that is a U.S. Compliant direct import automobile.
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SuperWonk Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Yes, but...
"GM/Ford just don't seem to make any performance-oriented upscale compacts; the decent performers (Cobalt SS, Ion Red Line, Focus SVT) are cheap-looking and unrefined, like they were designed for teenagers."

To me the point is that they went from not-so-appealing to "decent", which is an definite improvment that will keep going in the right direction, IMO. Next stop: decent to really good.
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GregW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-28-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
47. I tried ... I really tried ...
I went GM > Lincoln > Ford > Ford > Dodge > TURBO AUDI ... I and I ain't going back!

Tiptronic trans + quattro drive + bi-turbo V6 = YEEHA!
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SuperWonk Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. You really seem to have fell off the wagon...
Well, my point is that American automakers have struggled, and are fighting to reclaim their good name.

Does anyone agree that they are picking up steam?
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-08-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. No... and Not Even Close
And you know what else... fuck em for making gas guzzlers. They make automobiles in Europe that have better mileage. Gee... I wonder why. Fuck 'em.

They undermind their workers, their customers and their country. Why should we give a shit?
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apple_ridge Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
50. His and her Toyotas here and no problems with them since the
day we bought them. 95 + 99 models.

My mechanic friend was telling me the other day that my 4wd Tacoma 4 cyl doubled in wholesale value when gas approached $3/gallon. He said that used Chevy's, Ford's etc fell by the same amount at that time.

Dump your merkan junk while you still can.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
56. Candidate for this month's "You Call This NEWS?" award
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 01:34 PM by rocknation
We're MORE open to foreign cars? Compared to WHEN? And what do you expect in this kind of an economy--of COURSE you're going to be attracted to the cars that will give you the most for your bloodstained money!

:eyes:
rocknation
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SuperWonk Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-08-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. My point is...
And what do you expect in this kind of an economy--of COURSE you're going to be attracted to the cars that will give you the most for your bloodstained money!

But is that indeed the truth, and not just the current perception... that foreign cars give you the most?


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