Democrats Fear That Antiwar Remarks Could Backfire

[ECH1969]

Strong antiwar comments in recent days by House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean have opened anew a party rift over Iraq, with some lawmakers warning that the leaders' rhetorical blasts could harm efforts to win control of Congress next year.

Several Democrats joined President Bush yesterday in rebuking Dean's declaration to a San Antonio radio station Monday that "the idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong."

The critics said that comment could reinforce popular perceptions that the party is weak on military matters and divert attention from the president's growing political problems on the war and other issues. "Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful," said Rep. Jim Marshall (D-Ga.), recalling Dean's famous election-night roar after stumbling in Iowa during his 2004 presidential bid.

Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the second-ranking House Democratic leader, have told colleagues that Pelosi's recent endorsement of a speedy redeployment, combined with her claim that more than half of House Democrats support her position, could backfire on the party, congressional sources said. These sources said the two leaders have expressed worry that Pelosi is playing into Bush's hands by suggesting Democrats are the party of a quick pullout -- an unpopular position in many of the most competitive House races.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html

[GRLMGC]

1. And it might not

They need to stop the hand wringing.

[fshrink]

26. Exactly.

Why do so many people believe in victory without risk, without fight, without principles, and elevate what really is a fear to the status of savvy political strategy?

[pokercat999]

69. Time for a new, actually PROGRESSIVE (read liberal) party?

With Dean as it's founder/leader.

[sybylla]

89. We already have it

You just have to give the DLCers time to realize we're leaving them behind in the dust.

[pokercat999]

160. I hope you are right.

[Kurovski]

161. Yep. Real headline: DLC Fears That Antiwar Remarks Could Backfire

Many of them are as much a part of the war party as Cheney is.

How on earth can they otherwise say such a ridiculous thing when an overwhwelming number of Americans are ready to get the hell out of Iraq? It defies logic.

Miserable bunch of little lickspittles to the Repub goonbats.

[Critters2]

178. Exactly!!

Since when does the DLC equate with "Democrats". I was a Dem before the DLC ever existed. How dare they presume to speak for the party!!

[Joe Chi Minh]

117. Well put!

[susanna]

163. Now THAT was well said.

I could not agree more. Thanks, fshrink.

[lumberjack_jeff]

104. Or maybe it's the cheerleading that backfired n/t

[xultar]

2. Washington Post FUCKIN DLC HUB FUCKERS beholden to DLC

rethuglican light.

I bet the DLC PAID to have this story put in the WP.

THE FUCKS,
DLC
FUCKERS
FUCKIN DLC FUCKS

[nolabels]

61. It's too inconvenient for politicians to be against the occupation now

For a lot of them it's better just to have teenage boys die as they are than for their miserable coward politician asses to suffer the inconvenience having to explain the failure that is Iraq. It's just too plain inconvenient for these beltway politicians to have to explain a failed policy that is actually just welfare for a floundering arms merchant industry.

[saigon68]

68. I was invovled in a "crusade' in which a lot of the same died

AND FOR WHAT ?

[nolabels]

113. To be the warrior nation that wishes to rule the world?

The quintessential product of this host nation, the US, is war and fear. We, the people of the US, are the bankrupt pirate state that is saddled with protecting the markets of the corporate world. We, the fascist state have had this set up under the guise of patriotism. We are well equipped with all the apparatus to function in such manner. When we do go full bore with our fascist state the one small detail left out would be for the politicians to tell the people that is what is going on.

The politicians are not leaders, they are just mostly the boot lickers of their corporate masters. They are the firewall, the apologists, set between the corporation's whims and the host, we the people

Thanks to you and people like you, saigon68, we are and always will be one jump ahead of them

[Elbee]

120. No Shit, Man

We need the Vietnam Vets Against War helping the Iraq Vets in every possible way to finally put an end to this chicken hawk crap that's messing on everyone's head—inside and outside the US.

[wryter2000]

133. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[susanna]

165. Welcome, Elbee... n/t

[EVDebs]

121. Oil will last only 27 to 32 years and they know it....

Meanwhile, to placate Oil Companies and ME potentates, our foolish Pentagon puts out plans for '14 Enduring Bases' , yes permanent bases, in Iraq all the while Bush is telling the people we'll withdraw when Iraqis are 'ready'. BULL$*! Bush is in for the long haul and no matter how badly he mauls our military until our military wises up, like Murtha and Lt Gen Odom (of the NSA), we're in for 3 more years of this quagmire and 'stay the course', 'progress' is being made, etc., etc., with the press gladly taking the spin for a ride. Meanwhile, when we could be making REAL national security plans like what to really do when the last drop of oil is pumped, we're busily spinning our wheels in the Iraqi sands.

One trillion barrels of world proven reserves...divided by current daily consumption of 85 million barrels...equals about 32 years...but consumption in developing countries like India and China lead us to believe that within 20 years ave. daily consumption will be more like 120 million barrels ...meaning that it'll be more like 25 years and then the last drop is pumped.

What are these fools in Congress doing ? The general public cannot be fooled as easily as they used to. We're catching on fast with the internet etc. We DEMAND the truth...and right now Bush and Co. aren't giving it to us.

[nolabels]

151. I would say the truth is mostly out there already

To surmise, seems the biggest obstacle is finding or just waiting for a big enough majority politicians to admit they lied or allowed the lies to go on (which might not happen for while). Mostly it seems the public has arrived at the conclusion of the Iraq failure, it's just the saving face part that the politicians can't deal with. If they, the politicians later get cut slack in their part of the debacle, then they have completed their deceitful role in the function. If we can make some tell the truth then the rest of the politicians will not be able to get away with the lies

Most of the rest of the establishment that pulls the strings was also involved with the charade in one way or another. In a large part many these corporations that have indentured our country with even more debt (with THEIR quest for oil and war) think the rest us citizens should sit back and take it. They want us to take this failure, with the "stay the course" mantra, like its okay or something. These uber corporations believe they will be the only ones to hold sway in keeping elected officials accountable. If the corporate press don't say it, at nausea, than it just isn't so, so they believe.

The denial of the failure in Iraq is where it has led, we should hold them ALL accountable.

[susanna]

164. What amazes me is that so many of them were around for....

the opposing side re: Vietnam. And...they are doing this crap with a straight face and no thought of the hypocrisy that oozes from their every utterance.

But maybe that's just me.

[long_green]

3. not this Democrat

hell, if the party doesn't really get behind getting out of Iraq this Democrat won't be a Democrat anymore. I'll give "long green" another meaning.

[sybylla]

88. Dean is the party.

We're already behind getting out of Iraq. It's a few whiny DLCers who have a problem with Dean's remarks.

Don't make the mistake of believing what the media is trying to imply here. Dean is not the outsider. The DLCers are.

[Uncle Joe]

114. Yes, the corpwhorate owned MSM

are doing everything they can to expose or magnify fissures within the Democratic Party. They want either or both 1. A sizable percentage to break off for the Green Party to enable the Republicans to steal another election. B. To label the Democratic Party as soft on defense as opposed to strong on peace. A united peaceful Earth is much better for the people of the U.S. as well as the rest of the planet, however short term it may not be so good for the military industrial complex in power today and their corporate owned media whore enablers.

[Stand and Fight]

4. Grow some fucking spins already!!!

Enough of this gosh-damn pussy-footing around. Tucking our tails between our legs is the problem, not the solution. This country is in serious trouble, and its time to stop the bullshit -- NOW.

[PassingFair]

41. NICE Freudian slip, Stand & Fight!

Grow some fucking "SPINS" indeed.

I agree with you, enough spinning, some of us can see straight!

Time to face reality full-on.

[Stand and Fight]

102. Good catch!

I was furious when I read this story, so a simple spell check would not have caught that. It's so disgusting that they won't take a stand. Jeebus, it's like they're scared fo their own shadows at times!

[ninkasi]

5. The thing that doesn't seem to occur to them...

is to just speak the truth, and their convictions, regardless of how popular or unpopular they are. They worry about "perceptions" and what position is popular. I'd prefer honestly in any politician I vote for. I want to know what I'm voting for.

[joefree1]

6. Why? Shutting up didn't work last time.

And it won't work this time.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Anyone that sides with Bush is our enemy!

People are dying because of the cowardice of our political leaders!

[Birthmark]

8. What difference does it make if it backfires?

It is the truth and it needs to be said. The electorate will make of it what it will. Tailoring truth to fit preconceived ideas of what will get them elected is what has made the Democrats the minority party, imo.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

21. Hear hear!

Well said!

[Erika]

9. W said the Iraqi war wasn't winnable in 2004

And all of sudden a few democrats are running scared because Dr. Dean says the same thing now? How do they explain that?

[karynnj]

43. actually he said the war on terror was unwinnable

but the press let him have a do over the next day and never mentioned it again.

[Carolab]

10. Hoyer and Emanuel are f'ing rat fink Democrats.

We should all write to them or call them and express our disgust and donate to the DNC to show support for Dean and Pelosi.


Hoyer's e-mail: http://www.hoyer.house.gov/contact/email.asp

Emanuel's e-mail: http://www.house.gov/emanuel/IMA/issue.htm


To donate to the DNC: www.democrats.org

[DemonFighterLives]

82. Hoyer wouldn't take my email Wrong Zip

I was able to mail to Rahm, but got the message that he couldn't respond because of wrong zip area.
I guess the less mail they get the better-for them.
Anybody have a good Zip.
:rofl:

[fishnfla]

11. The WP is great at these "some people say" articles

they do the same thing on the GOP all the time. Some people think these are such easy wishy-washy puff pieces that are cookbook boring

[Mass]

13. They has two Democrats who disagree with Dean (3 with Lieberman)

and they make that as if it is general.

Anyway, whoever says that we can win in Iraq first needs to say that he means by "win".

[bunkerbuster1]

92. Oh, no! A Macon, GA Democrat is upset!

obviously we all should be as well!

What pansy-assed crap.

[burythehatchet]

136. "Boy, you got a purty mouth"

My nightmare scenario of getting pulled over in Macon.

[mac56]

152. Georgia politicians of any party

as a rule are absolutely scared shitless of alienating the military. Naturally there are exceptions, but overall they're scared to death of it. Good lord, there are about a gazillion bases and another gazillion defense contractors in GA.

Not an excuse, just an explanation. Just sayin'

[nicknameless]

173. Not to mention School of the Americas.

[depakid]

144. The Post does that ALL THE TIME

It's not a credible or respectable source any more- and hasn't been for many years.

It won the race to the bottom against the NY Times, dammit- and it's not about to give up its position.

[IChing]

12. David Sirota said this about Rahm in November and nailed him

When, Rahm, is the "right time?" Is it closer to the election when you think it suits your own personal political ambition better, even though hundreds - if not thousands - of more American troops will have been killed? How many more people have to die or be maimed, Rahm, before it is "the right time?" And are you really so arrogant and out-of-touch to believe voters will swallow this kind of cynical politics as genuine on election day?

Make no mistake about it - Emanuel's comment perfectly captures exactly the problem for Democrats both in 2006 and beyond, even though he probably is so self-absorbed, he has no idea how destructive his behavior is. He shows how some Democrats (but, as I wrote earlier this week, certainly not all) really are willing to put their own crass political ambitions over absolutely everything else.

That trait, beyond any single issue, has been the downfall of the Democratic Party in recent years. People go to the polls to vote for political leaders with guts like Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) - not connivers, prevaricators, or cowering, weak-kneed wimps who are willing to make public political calculations while Americans die overseas. Until the party shuts up those in its midst who have no moral compass and who are willing to use their prominence to reinforce a soulless image, Democrats will always face a nagging credibility gap with the American people

.http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1118-34.htm

[leftchick]

63. that was great to read!

thank you!

[burythehatchet]

137. Replace Emanuel with Clinton (Hillary), and its the same

exact message.

[IChing]

153. Any democrat in my opinion who gives credence to what I consider to be

war crimes, is deserving of the rant that Dave Sirota expressed.
I wish he would run.

[iconoclastNYC]

162. Exactly.

There is a brand of democrat who think that the Democrats showing any sort of Aggressiveness is wrong.

We can't let them cut the balls off the Donkey.

[bluestateguy]

14. I wish the corporate media would make up its mind

First they bitch about Democrats who are mealy-mouthed and have-it-both-ways about Iraq, like John Kerry: Democrats who frame their statements in a really loquacious, carefully worded tone of voice.

"They should be more decisive and honest!"

OK. Then when Howard Dean does just that, and says what I suspect many Americans have privately said, or believe, then there is bitching about that.

[Malikshah]

15. Yo...DLC..Beltway woosies-- remember FDR????

Get your head out of your nether orifices and listen up--

the only thing you have to fear is fear itself.

Alas-- we have more to fear w/ you useless folks fouling up the party.

Get out of the way and let the adults get the work done.

[Lori Price CLG]

16. 'leaders' (comments) could harm efforts to win control of Congress...'

No. Diebold will, and the 'antiwar comments' will be blamed for the 'loss.'

Lori Price

[quinnox]

17. I see why the concern but doubt it will have any real influence

in congressional races in 2006 for a few reasons. One is that it is still a year out, more than enough time to make adjustments to the Democrats campaign message. And also these races involve local candidates not Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean running against the republicans. Plus the American public might be even more tired of the Iraq war by then, and poll numbers might actually be in favor of a rapid withdrawal.

I think Dean made a mistake but I'm glad they corrected it - "DNC spokeswoman Karen Finney said Dean's comment were taken out of context. Dean, she said, meant the war was unwinnable unless the Bush administration adopts a new strategy."

You don't tell the American people they lost or will lose, just say we won the Iraq war (which America did) and completed our mission and now after declaring victory it is time to end the mission.

[w13rd0]

22. Sure you do...

...watch how easy it is:

"American people, you will LOSE in Iraq if you continue to follow Bush. You will also LOSE on the economy, on jobs, on national security, on REAL democratic principls. You will LOSE. We've already lost five years and 2100+ soldiers lives, thousands to "Heckuva Job Brownie" sheer incompetence and negligence, not to mention thousands of innocent iraqis, to these lying fucking jackals. We should not permit them a DAY more.

[quinnox]

25. ok, that works

Framing it that way isn't bad.

[bklyncowgirl]

65. What makes you think that this was a mistake?

This is the way Dean operates. He says something controversial. The talking heads erupt. Some Democrats distance themselves. Dean reframes the argument in a way that gets some point the Democrats have wanted to make but have not been able to get into the discussion by more conventional means.

It's a bit scary to watch and occaisionally it blows up in his face but for the most part it's effective.

[TankLV]

168. Very good observation.

And I might add, with each utterance, the country is moving in Dean's and OUR direction!

Bunkerboy and the repuke and repuke-lite war mongers and war criminals have lost the debate already and don't know it.

The discussion is now HOW SOON DO WE GET THE HELL OUT. Nobody but the WAR CRIMINALS still think we should stay.

[MadisonProgressive]

18. Tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may

[Evergreen Emerald]

19. Bush doesn't lead he only spins--Dems don't lead they only sit silently

for fear of the spin. The campaigning has got to stop. It is time for someone to stand up and LEAD for God's sakes! I am getting sick of this mess. The dems helped to create it. It is time for more people stand up and take the lumps and get our kids the hell out of there no matter what the political cost to them.

By sitting silent for fear of spin they are just as bad. Bush used our troops for his own political agenda. Dems leave them there to die for their own political agenda.

[w13rd0]

23. Plenty of Dems are leading...

...aren't you listening? We're trying to get the media to listen, but it's hard for them to do real reporting rather than just regurgitating white house press releases.

[Evergreen Emerald]

84. I know the press is a problem

I agree that there are some speaking (Murtha, for one). Remember some of the responses from some of the dems--"Murtha does not speak for me."

Most are tiptoeing around to save their own political career. They need to stand united and shout.

[w13rd0]

96. They need to be shown....

...in terms of dollars, something they can understand, that we throw our support behind those that speak for us. We need to be demonstrating that growing a spine pays a dividend, both in terms of contributions, and in terms of votes. Problem is, the voting is every couple years, contributions can happen anytime in the cycle. That's why they pay so much attention to the corporations and the lobbyists, those f*ckers dish out the payola year round.

[Synnical]

20. The owner of the company I work for today

Asked me why Code Pink is against Hillary Clinton. I replied because Hillary won't adapt an anti-war stance.

He's an atheist and a soft Repuke. His only reply was, "Ah, hmmm."

I support Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan. And I won't support wishy-washy Dems. Lieberman needs to change his party affiliation.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[Warpy]

24. A majoirity in this country feels we were lied into this war

and that it is being lost by an administration more concernced with lining its own pockets than doing what is right.

Dean was right to speak out about this quagmire of a war. He's been against it from the beginning, and he's been proven right all along.

Who is WRONG are the pursed lips crowd, tut-tutting at him and generally trying to chop him off at the knees for daring to say what a majority of Americans now think!

I asked yesterday when Lieberman et al would be looking down their long blues noses at him and sniffing at his "intemperate" words. It turns out they're right on schedule, as usual.

[willing dwarf]

27. This is such utter tripe!

Truth is never out of vogue. But those who run from the truth will try to villify those who refuse to cut their clothes to suit the political climate of the season. So it is with the right wing extremists.

The suggestion that there should be a sort of "litmus test" for correct liberal values is utter nonsense. What does it mean to be liberal if not to listen and be willing to express a wide range of view points.

The problems which the left wing has ahd in NOT questioning the war, and not calling the sham excuses for going to war a sham are the biggest problems the Deomcrats need to deal with. If it weren't for John Conyers, Nancy Pelosi, and sometimes Howard Dean & John Kerry, I'd scarecely be able to recognize that there is an opposition party in this country.

What are the democrats afraid of, except sucess?

[htuttle]

28. Fuck fear. Is it right? Or is it wrong? Do what's right.

Period.

[merwin]

29. That 'scream in Iowa' was a republican manufactured device to remove

Dean from the race. They took the audio from the directional mic, without the crowd, and shipped it to the news organizations.

Of course he sounded like an idiot. He had to scream to be heard over the cheering, and all they played was the screaming.

[bling bling]

33. You're absolutely right.

And it's disgusting to hear another Democrat bringing that up and reinforcing the "Dean's crazy" scheme. It makes you wonder who's side he's really on.

[merwin]

39. I don't think he's on the dark side. However, he is a complete dolt

that will fall for anything :-)

[blm]

115. I think they hyped it to cover their own fraudulent reporting of the

primary.


They blamed it all on Dean as if he suddenly imploded all on his own - truth was that they had consistently OVER-reported Dean's support on the ground in Iowa while UNDER-reporting Kerry's and Edwards' support there.

Because of their hyped scream, the media got off scot-free and were never held to account for their ploy to get Kerry out of the race by telling potential donors and supporters his campaign was already dead months earlier and repeated constantly.

[bling bling]

30. I always love the Democrats who publically rebuke other Dems

for criticizing the administration or Republicans. You rarely hear these people critizing their political opponents, yet they fly to the newpapers or cameras to hastily eat their own under the spotlight.

[Guaranteed]

35. How about Dean tells THEM to shut the hell up?

Maybe THEY need to get smacked around a bit. Spread the love.

[bling bling]

49. I'd love to hear Dean tell them to STFU.

Maybe not those exact words. But he would have my complete support if he publically reminded these Dems who the real enemy is and that the Dem's bend-over strategy of "not upsetting" the republicans haven't exactly been winning them any popularity contests the last 8 years. Literally.

[wordpix]

106. me, too-Dean was RIGHT to be anti-war all along & rest of these "leaders"

should remember that

[wordpix]

107. right, eating our own in public like repukes--Dems don't need to follow

that example

[ixion]

31. that's funny, because most people are against the war, if

polls are any indication.

Great (ill)logic from WaPo. :eyes:

[Gyre]

32. SOS, different day.

DLC scum are padding their Swiss bank accounts as we speak. They remind me of the Scottish lords who sold out to Longshanks while Wallace was bleeding for their country. Hopefully, we'll have a different outcome and it'll be their heads on pikes.

Gyre

[young_at_heart]

34. Hasn't the entire war "backfired" on Bush Co?

It would be nice to see a united group who pound away en masse at this horrible "war"!

[Tuesday_Morning]

36. Woosies!!

That's a lot of bullshit.

Send this thread to those silly puddingheads.

[Guaranteed]

37. Sorry, it's just time for the real Democrats to take control of this thing

Congressmembers who don't want to jump on the bandwagon are the ones who should be getting beaten down, not the other way around.

[fooj]

38. OMG!

What ever happened to standing on principle?

[dweller]

40. perhaps they'd rather stand alone. n/t

dp

[burythehatchet]

135. prin....cip...le??? What's that? nt

[fooj]

146. No kidding.

Peace.

[Guaranteed]

42. My email to Rahm

Distinguished Representative Emanuel,

I am from Illinois, although I do not live in your district. It angered me tonight to hear from the Washington Post that you have- perhaps once again- been undermining our party's leadership, Democrats like Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean, by criticizing the statements they have made regarding the Iraq War. Surely you must realize by now that the main problem with the Democrats as of late (meaning the past decade) is their unwillingness to take principled stands on issues. You also must realize that the American people have had just about enough of what's going on in Iraq. Consequently, it would seem that now might be a good time to send a strong message to the Bush Administration and the American people.

Now, I realize that there are many different opinions out there concerning what we should *do* about this mess, but the truth about the pointlessness of this war, which is finally being articulated by some Democrats, needs to be spoken. So, I'm writing to suggest that, if you're not ready to take a leadership position in this party and this country, it is alright, but you shouldn't undermine those who do have the courage to take that step. You merely contribute to our party's image of "weakness" that you are so afraid of projecting. If you are afraid to stand up to the Republicans, I just don't see how you'll be willing to stand up to the terrorists.

I was hoping that, going into 2006, the DCCC would begin to play a larger role in crafting a strong, clear message to the country. So far, I've been very disappointed.

I do want you to know, though, that when you're ready to take the fight to the Republicans, your party will be behind you, just like they are behind Governor Dean and the DNC.

Thanks for listening.

Sincerely,

[DemonFighterLives]

78. Good Letter

I hope he gets a clue.

[Dr Fate]

44. If true, then it should read: "Democrats fear own shadow"

This is propaganda- the public does not support this war.

[Seansky]

45. I am starting to believe that there is a disease in DC that is affecting

all these politicians' heads and it is contagious. The symptoms include:
disassociation with reality,

lack of empathy for the people that suffer as result of the war and all the current nightmares,

self-center behavior to maintain the power the people have given them by screwing the exact people that put them in power;

and greed...

It is contagious for all politicians and DC

[pokercat999]

70. You are correct, always has been always will be......

the corrective solution might be one term in federal office and one term only then out FOREVER barred from holding any federal office. Of course I'd like to see this at the state level also.

[karynnj]

46. This is just noise to hide Rice's problems in Europe

They want the story to be the Democrats are split on the war (which is utterly normal for the party out of power), Dean's and Kerry's statements - which taken in context are true, and other Democrats fighting.

I guess each of these stories beat Condi being called on the carpet because they have secret prison camps. (I'm sure Condi and Bush were thrilled when the EU representative wanted the Bush team's favorite Senator (Kerry) to give them information given to Congress rather than getting it from the administration. (Kerry's office said he would not be allowed to do that.)

[PassingFair]

47. This was addressed a few days ago...

by Rep. George Miller - CA

"The news media is partly to blame for many Americans' misconception that the Democratic party is badly divided on the Iraq war, because they seek comment mostly from what they consider the party's elite, Miller said. Democratic senators like Sens. Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman - who voted in favor of the war and who now can find no graceful way of admitting they'd made a mistake - don't necessarily hold the party's majority view, Miller said."

So let's find some elites to cut us off at the knees, AGAIN!

[Beetwasher]

48. I've REWRITTEN THE ARTICLE! It's Much Better Now, Take A Look!

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Etc.

[TexasLawyer]

159. That's not funny...

It's hilarious. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

A "party rift over Iraq"? A lack of cohesion in the Democratic party over Iraq? Some people would like to think so.

[countmyvote4real]

50. The awareness of principals in this thread is amazing.

For two Presidential elections we were supposed to vote the party line in order to defeat the GOP agenda. Sadly, I was a “good lock-step” Dem that voted for the likes of Hillary Clinton, who will STILL not admit that she cast the wrong vote for supporting the false invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Way too many Dems voted for CAFTA and the bankruptcy bill and the list goes way beyond that to show that they do not support the well being of their own constituents. They bow to the same corporate lobbyists as their GOP colleagues and their own personal agendas.

It’s time to clean house.

If these Rep Lite Dems cannot be eliminated in Democratic primaries, then I am ready to cross lines and vote for any Green candidate on the ballot. Of course that assumes our votes are accurately accounted and verifiable. Unfortunately, that’s a dubious assumption these days.

Anyway, my new bottom line is that I don’t have anything to lose by dividing the Dem vote. These DINOS are no different in supporting my interests than their GOP counterparts.

I’m not saying that this applies to all Dem candidates, but those with a voting record are easily found out. If it doesn’t fit, vote for the new candidate if their platform and objectives speak to the truth of our democracy. Hopefully, that includes the separation of Church and State as well as the social conscience of FDR. Our country needs universal health insurance. Not billions for the * administration war profiteers.

Peace

[newswolf56]

51. In support of the anti-war remarks by Dean and Pelosi...

(and similar though less publicized remarks by Edwards, Kerry, Boxer and any other Democrat with the courage to speak out):

We as a nation have gone far beyond the point where the considerations that might have once restrained such criticism have any relevance at all. Internationally the United States is nearly as despised as Nazi Germany was -- and for many of the same reasons, including the fact it is obvious to Europe that both Iraq and the aftermath of Katrina are merely the opening offensives of an onslaught to elevate the U.S. corporate oligarchy to global omnipotence.

The Bush Administration is finally being recognized for what it is -- the ultimate achievement of American capitalism, tasked with unleashing the tyrannosauric savagery that has always been implicit in capitalism's core values -- with the result that a growing number of people worldwide are awakening to the truth articulated by Al Gore a few weeks ago: that never in history has American liberty been in such jeopardy.

In this context, truthful criticism (no matter how damning) is vital. In the eyes of the world we could hardly look any worse than we already do -- and criticism such as Dean's will at least make it clear not everyone is marching in lockstep with Bush, his corporate masters and their JesuNazi stormtroopers: a point that needs to be made not only abroad, but to foster the public awakening here at home.

Nevertheless the alleged "Democrats" who attempt to silence these courageous voices actually do perform one great service: they provide further confirmation of the dire extent to which the Democratic Leadership Council truly is a Republican Fifth Column within the Democratic Party.

[Uncle Joe]

116. That was a great speech by Al Gore,

too bad the corporate media whores decided not to cover it.

[newswolf56]

149. Which is all the more ironic -- and hypocritical -- since it was made...

at the annual Associated Press investigative reporters symposium. Thus there's no question the media knew of it -- and therefore no question it was deliberately, methodically suppressed.

(I know of Gore's remarks only by fortunate chance: DU linked it live -- via NPR, as I remember -- but the link was dead almost immediately after the fact, and since then, the text of Gore's speech seems to have vanished down the Orwellian memory hole; at least I've never been able to find it. So if you have a working link to it, please share it.)

[Uncle Joe]

157. Here is your link and part of the speech, have a good night.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/10/5/14301/6133

Al Gore gave a speech this morning on the decline of the media, our public discourse and the threat to American democracy itself. The transcript beneath the break ...


Remarks by Al Gore as prepared
Associated Press / The Media Center
October 5, 2005

"I came here today because I believe that American democracy is in grave danger. It is no longer possible to ignore the strangeness of our public discourse . I know that I am not the only one who feels that something has gone basically and badly wrong in the way America's fabled "marketplace of ideas" now functions.

How many of you, I wonder, have heard a friend or a family member in the last few years remark that it's almost as if America has entered "an alternate universe"?

I thought maybe it was an aberration when three-quarters of Americans said they believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for attacking us on September 11, 2001. But more than four years later, between a third and a half still believe Saddam was personally responsible for planning and supporting the attack.

At first I thought the exhaustive, non-stop coverage of the O.J. trial was just an unfortunate excess that marked an unwelcome departure from the normal good sense and judgment of our television news media. But now we know that it was merely an early example of a new pattern of serial obsessions that periodically take over the airwaves for weeks at a time."

<snip>

Well worth reading and much more below snip.




:)

[newswolf56]

158. Thank you very much. I've bookmarked the text.

[jackbourassa]

52. Washington Post = DLC mouth piece

As soon as I saw the title thread, I knew this was from the post.

Rahm Emmanuel is an idiot who needs to go.

[No Exit]

53. IT IS BETTER TO DO RIGHT THAN TO WIN ELECTIONS.

If someone is truly anti-war, then they should say so, and should support others who say so.

If they're not in the majority, tough. They need to just keep fighting until they have either accomplished the goal of ending the killing, or have expired while trying.

Fuck the "votes". What possible reward is there in pretending to be something you're not, and thereby getting elected? How could you possibly serve happily? And if you COULD serve happily under such conditions, then you're just like the CRAP we have in there already. And you would deserve to be thrown out.

[Dr Fate]

54. I'm not so sure being against this war will lose many elections. n/t

n/t

[No Exit]

58. That's the icing on the cake!!!

[TankLV]

170. Ya got that fucking right!

I'd rather we STAND AND FIGHT FOR PRINCIPLES AND LOSE than to fake the latest finger in the air strategy to try campaigning on!

That's it in a nutshell.

[Emillereid]

55. I don't know how much longer I can stay in the Democratic Party --

they seem intent on losing. Here we have 60% or so of the American people that think the war was wrong, etc. and the democrats fear that taking essentially the same position is going to backfire? Are they smokin' crack?

[AgadorSparticus]

56. Oh for chriss sakes!!! MORE FUCKING FEAR!!!!!

As if we haven't had enough. :puke:

[No Exit]

59. Exactly! "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

[BenDavid]

57. Well, I guess in all this

we will see how many pink tutu wearing democrats we will have, and if they really care about taking the House and Senate back in 06... Goodness, what Dean said is exactly what former prime minster of Israel Ehud Barak told vice president cheney "that America had lost in Iraq"...Also he said that Israel had learned, " that there's no way to win an occupation".
Mr. Barak is exactly correct. The dems need to keep up the call to leave Iraq as soon as the elections are held. Hell, there will not be an election again in Iraq for 4 years after the dec. 15th 2005 election. So what is Bush going to be giving speeches about then? So Dems need to continue their call for troop to be withdrawn after the Dec 15 th elections and that is what Murtha also said, and that is a good thing...

[Zhade]

60. Fuck them.

They should go and die in Iraq, the fucking cowardly hypocrites.

[xchrom]

62. ok, rahm -- and this war hasn't backfired already?

[NewHampshireDem]

64. How about this ... stop worrying about 'winning' and start worrying about

do what is RIGHT! Then we will win.

What a bunch of asshats. They are worried about backlash from a position the majority of Americans support?!?

I'm with Jim Hightower ... all I want for Christmans is a democratic party that will stand up for Americans!

[Blasphemer]

66. Still Afraid? STILL Afraid?

It really boggles the mind. It's one thing to be too cowardly to take an unpopular position but to be too cowed to take a position that reflects the feeling of the majority of the country takes gutlessness to a new level.

[Gman]

67. You break it you own it

Most people understand that and understand that's why we can't just withdraw everything immediately. But I do believe most people want us out asap.

[Dhalgren]

91. I think that the idea of "you break it, you own it" is a ridiculous

idea and very offensive. This isn't an attack on you, Gman, it is a response to that recurring "Pottery Barn" inanity. This is a country we are talking about; with real, live, human beings citizens - we don't "own" these people and their country, we are murdering these people and their country. If someone is in the process of murdering a group of people, task number one is to stop the murder. Restitution can be exacted at the appropriate time, but to say that because we have begun a long-term spree of killing, we must continue it because we now "own it" is just unbelievably absurd. Sorry, again, I wasn't attacking this poster, it is just that I keep hearing and reading this idiotic statement and it finally got to me...

[goodhue]

111. When you break something in a store you don't . . .

"When you break something in a store you don't sit there with crazy glue trying to piece it back together. And you most certainly don't run around with a bat breaking more things. What you do is apologize, write them a check, and get out before you do anymore damage."

- Patrick Resta of Iraq Veterans Against the War

http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese05052005.html

[truthisfreedom]

71. "playing into bush's HANDS"??? what, he needs two sets of cards to play???

come on.

whoever wrote this article is a thug shill.

[Vinca]

72. To this I say, if I wanted to be part of the Republican party,

I'd join it. I don't need Democrats adopting Republican views. The majority of Democrats want an end to this madness, the sooner the better. Playing Republican light - in the hope of capturing a few votes - is going to mean losing the Democratic base. Stupid, stupid, stupid! It makes you long for a viable third party.

[jamesinca]

73. If they are worried about it backfiring...

then they need to get off of their sorry asses, get behind it and articulate the message. If they run hide and split the party, we lose again. It is time for a clear unified message Mr. Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.). Republicans tend to be the most screwed up people on the face of the earth, but they are in lockstep and that gives the appearance of strength, leadership and the ability to make a decision. How many times do you need your nuts kicked up over your shoulders before you get the idea that stupid shallow appearances will get you pretty far in politics?

"the two leaders have expressed worry that Pelosi is playing into Bush's hands by suggesting Democrats are the party of a quick pullout -- an unpopular position in many of the most competitive House races." Pullout, that does not sound manly, leave it in and get the job done.

Staying there is not real popular either, I wonder if they read that part of the opinion poll? Mr. Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.)need to do a little work and let people know that the Democrats are for pulling the troops out of Iraq and ending the global war of terrorizing. It does not mean tomorrow nor does it mean 25 years from now. It does mean the troops will be pulled out in a timely fashion without making excuses for the inability to follow through.

[Che_Nuevara]

74. HEADLINE: Democrats fear that having an opinion could backfire. (n/t)

[leesa]

75. No we don't. Get lost DLC.

[mbperrin]

76. Out now! US out of Iraq and so-called Dems out of Congress!

Hello; I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party!

[mmonk]

77. Why the Democrats will lose again.

They will support the neocon foreign policy (or at least not fight it or expose it) and they will support more "privatization" schemes (or at least not oppose them, but play the game with their own "ideas"). This will lead to more third party candidates to split the vote.

People prefer the clash of ideas. Instead, this new one party state could consolidate further power and further usurp checks and balances and principles of our democracy.

[Solly Mack]

79. Is the war wrong? Is it a war crime? Was it for lies?

Then how can anti-war remarks backfire?

You can't "win" a war crime.

You can't "win" if a war is wrong. Oh, you can totally destroy a country - but is that "winning" - is that the standard America wants to adopt for Iraq? We won because we destroyed the country? Is setting up a puppet government really a win? Is stealing Iraq's resources they kind of "win" you can live with? (and can you call yourself a moral person, a honest person, a person of character and integrity, if you support theft of resources through murder and torture by calling it a win?)

You can't "win" a war of lies.

Oh, you can spin it as a win - but why would Americans want to embrace that lie? When has embracing lies and myths ever been good for the people? Someone is always harmed by the lies. Always - no exceptions. How can you claim you want honest government but then embrace a lie? Isn't that being a hypocrite?

If you think you can "win" in Iraq, then Bush will get away with his lies. NO ONE prosecutes a President for winning a war. And no one will prosecute a President for war crimes in a war that we "won"

It just won't happen.

[glitch]

129. You can't "win" a war crime.

Well said. Sums the whole damn fubar up in a sentence.

[Maggie_May]

80. Our remarks need to be clear

we went to war on the basics that their WMD and to remove Saddam. We did not go to war to nation build. This talking point for Bush came after there were no WMD. If the American people were told that we were going into Iraq to nation build I don't think we would be there today. We were told that if we did not invade Iraq that the United States was going to be a mushroom cloud. Our Troops have done their job it is time to come home.
Our Troops and the American people were not told they were going into Iraq to rebuild Iraq. Its that simple.

[Loonman]

81. They're right, Democrats should continue to kiss Bush's ass.

Fuckin' pussies.

[freestyle]

83. Who are these people? Democrats for Death and Destruction.

When large majorities of the public have realized that the war is bullshit based on bullshit, going with the people won't backfire. There never was a reason to support the war, a majority of House Democrats did vote against it, and there is no political reason to do any ass covering now. Anti-war was always the moral position, and now it is the popular position as well.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

85. I say deep-six those NeoCon fellow-travellers who call themselves Dems.

[sybylla]

86. Dean was elected to lead us by the Democrats of this country

Perhaps it's the pro war Dems who need to be looking at themselves before they start casting stones at Dean.

Apparently the truth of what Dems in this country want is starting to hurt.

[Red1]

87. Unity

Do we agree to disagree and loose the next election to the republicunts, or brace ourselves with the fact that we will have to live with a platform which we may not agree with the goal being to win the election and THEN turn the country around?

Our choice.

[silvermachine]

93. We need to stand for something...

...not run away from our principles. It's hard to motivate people to turn out and vote your way if you don't stand on principle. It's like saying that by not standing up for your true values and beliefs, you have a better chance of winning than you would by articulating your goals and policies in an effective manner. Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Exiled in America]

103. Untity doesn't mean standing for nothing... that's a different word:

Complicentcy.

We don't win anything if we sacrifice everything along the way. I don't want to "win" by standing for nothing and allowing more innocent children to be blown apart while we play politics and say it might not be politically wise to stand up and speak out about what's right and wrong. We don't deserve to win if that's the kind of shit we want to pull.

You're mistaken when you act like we should want politicians to act one way during the election year with the idea that then once they get elected they can "come out of the closet" about what they really believe and get this country back together. What you fail to appreciate is that every year is an election year. The idea of "win and then..." is bogus.

You can't "turn the country around" by having reprehensible cowardly stances on moral issues that are hardly distinguishable from your opponents.

We'll be "united" when we show those power-brokers within the party who betray every idea of traditional democratic values the fucking door. I don't want to be "united" with them any more than I want to be "united" with neo-conservatives. It's OK that we disagree. What the democratic party needs more than anything in the world is to figure out what it STANDS for and then SPLIT off those who can't get in line with that.

[TankLV]

171. Sorry - we've been doing that already - didn't work - BIGTIME!

or haven't you noticed who controls the WH, BOTH houses of congress and the SOCTUS!

We need to develope a WINNING strategy -like DOING THE RIGHT THING AND STANDING ON PRINCIPLES!

[The Stranger]

90. The lying, fabricated war has been ongoing years now and polls show

the people hate it. Why can't the Democratic "leadership" represent the people?

Clean house. Get Hilary, Leibercon, and all of the other Zell Millerites out of the party. Cut them all loose.

[midnight armadillo]

94. Alternate headline: Dem leaders fearful of growing a set of balls

'nuff said.

[nickgutierrez]

95. How are anti-war remarks going to "backfire"?

Polls say a distinct majority of US citizens oppose the war. This stance wins elections.

[Ignacio Upton]

97. This doesn't mean that people want to hear about losing

It's like taxes and gay marriage. While national polls on those issues may be favorable to us, in actual elections the voters acquiesce to stupidity and go with the Republicans. We can support withdrawal without coming across as wanting to lose the war. The way in which Dean phrased his agreeable statement about how we can't win the war without any collaboration with the Iraqis, is easy to take out of context. Bush made a similar gaffe last year when he said that we can't win the war on terror but that we can reduce terrorism's ability to intimidate.

[nickgutierrez]

98. My problem is that it's our own side distorting Dean's remarks.

The quote in the OP was from Jim Marshall, the Democrat from Georgia. You'd think he would defend his party's chairman, not repeat the distortion of his remarks.

We expect the Republicans to spin and distort, for our own side to do it against one of our own is, or ought to be, unacceptable.

[Bridget Burke]

99. A Texas Democratic Rep is NOT afraid.....

Rep. Chet Edwards (D-Tex.), who represents a district Bush won easily in 2004, said he disagrees with Pelosi and Dean but does not see that as a problem. "The national press is playing up the fact that Democrats do not speak with one voice on Iraq," he said. "We should wear it as a badge of honor because it shows we are not playing a political line with war and peace."

So--even someone who disagrees with Pelosi & Dean doesn't think they are dangerous to the Democratic Party.

But he's quoted in the last paragraph. How many people will just see the headline? Or read a paragraph or 2?

[Bandit]

100. People like this make me sick.. It is all politics to them and not a thoug

for the human suffering going on. They are as culpable as the Republicans and I suggest they should be removed as well. Death should not be a political matter...

[Fovea]

101. Note to craven Dems.

Get a spine, or wallow in the ditch!

[wordpix]

105. Dear Dem "Leaders": Get your asses together and send out cohesive anti-war

message for '06 or we will LOSE CONGRESS AGAIN.

PS: If you think staying in Iraq is the right thing to do, what is your plan for the insufficient number of US troops to control the country and insurgency? Start a draft?

[DeaconBlues]

108. Even from a cold, calculating point of view these people are wrong

When was the last time the DLC playbook win an election? Time to tell these fools to either shut up or leave the party.

[EVDebs]

124. Really, they've got former Repub 'strategists' on their payroll for

crissakes.

[goodhue]

109. The democrats who think that are the problem . . .

Lieberman, Clinton, Emanuel, Hoyer, etc.

Their ostrich-like gutless moderation should be challenged at every available opportunity. If they feel enough pressure, they will turn. And the democratic party will be better for it.

[madmark]

110. If democrats are "stay the course" then there is no difference

between the parties.

[ernstbass]

112. Absolutely pathetic

[EVDebs]

118. Not when former NSA Lt Gen Odom says 'what's wrong with cut and run'

What's Wrong With Cutting and Running? by Gen. (ret.) William E. Odom

http://www.originaldissent.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-20491.html

The fact that MainStreamMedia either cannot or will not report on what the former NSA Lt Gen has said is Proof Positive of complicity in Operation Mockingbird and or domestic military PsyOps 'catapulting propaganda' for the Bush administration.

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee ladies and gentlemen. The only reason the socalled investigative media took note is because Rep Murtha spoke out on the televised floor of Congress. While on the street, the sinking poll numbers tell the story on how well things are going. Muddled thinking by neocons ... muddled press coverage.

The fact is the Truth is on the side willing to TELL IT, and right now Rep Murtha and Lt Gen Odom and anyone willing to stand up and tell it like it is...is a TRUE AMERICAN, not a traitor like those who propped up a guy selling us out (Chalabi) to the Iranians...

Oh, there's an investigation that won't go anywhere until after the Dem's retake the House also. I can hardly wait !

[RaulGroom]

119. The DCCC doesn't believe in the passage of time

How else to explain this kind of thinking? The question is not the popularity of a pullout today - it's the popularity of a pullout in November of next year.

Raise your hand if you think an Iraq pullout will be LESS popular in ten months.

[toymachines]

122. As far as I can tell our leaders our are on the same page as us

Those who are too pussy to tell the truth to the people can do their own thing. They are not true progressives.

[EVDebs]

123. I'm voting for Nader if they cave. I'm a registered Green who voted D

But if the Democratic 'invertabrates' don't grow spines right now and start TELLING THE TRUTH TO POWER, then the game is over.

[progressivebydesign]

126. Cool.. I'll enjoy having Jeb Bush as my president. Thanks. n/t

[EVDebs]

127. So what will be the difference ..the Ds aren't speaking up against * now

WHEN WILL THEY ? Answer please.

[wordpix]

140. some Dems are speaking up---can't you hear them?

[EVDebs]

141. Not loud enough, SPEAK LOUDER, eh ? So maybe the rest of the world hears

LOUD AND CLEAR. Sorry, too much 'comity' as the R's say is needed. Yeah, right.

[TankLV]

172. And they are PRAISING bunkerboy and the repukes while at the same time

CRITICIZING THEIR FELLOW DEMOCRATS!

Yeah, that's the winning ticket!

[progressivebydesign]

125. Oh fuck those whiners! Bush said the same DAMN THING! n/t

[mazzarro]

128. The Irony of this is that eventually Dean's statement will predominate

Remember when Dean unequivocally came out against the war during the primaries and he was roundly condemned. The same will happen here again. The unfortunate thing is that when Dean's statement becomes common and accepted in the debate about how to end the war, Dean will not be accorded the due recognition for venturing ahead of the other politicians.
Yes * has acknowledged, in his usually sly way, that the 'war on terror' is un-winnable, he will eventually concede that the Iraq war is un-winnable as well and Dean will come out as prescient on this as well.

[stepnw1f]

130. These Idiots Are Helping Bush

and hurting the country as a result. Sad...

[wryter2000]

131. Excuse me???

Criticizing an unpopular war is a bad strategy and defending an unpopular war is a good one? :eyes:

[occuserpens]

132. Back to Daschle and Moore?

In 2002, I was perplexed by the magic of Daschle's maneuvering, but still assumed that he knows something very important about high political strategy that I miss. However, 2002 elections proved that it was not case, Daschle's magic did not help dems.

In 2004, I was perplexed by the horrible Moore's movie. It looks more like a video blog than a documentary, some sort of "born again" cinematography. Its content makes no sense whatsoever. The Cannes prize did not fool me, but still I kept my mouth shut - maybe there is something about modern American soul that I fail to understand? However, in 2004, Kerry lost and Daschle was gone. Thanks God - we don't hear much about Michael Moore.

Nevertheless, rightist dems and loonie screamers are still here with their stories full of the sound and the fury, signifying nothing :-(

1. Jim VandeHei, Shalaigh Murray. Democrats Fear Backlash at Polls for Antiwar Remarks: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html

2. Wiki on Daschle: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html

3. Fahrenheit 9/11: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0361596/

[zara]

134. Choose to stand for something this once.

[Catamount]

138. The time for treading softly is soooo over!

Just look where we are now, because no one had the guts to speak out!
Hooray for all dems and indps who speak truth to power!
They are right!
added in edit; I also applaud those few repugs who dare to disagree with bushco!



:argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh: :argh:

[capitalistdemocrat]

139. Cooler heads will prevail

They better...

[Writer]

148. I hear you. n/t

[Megahurtz]

142. Spineless Whimps.

These Democrats need to get some guts for Krissake, but they won't.
They'll just whimp themselves all the way up to White-House
and continue the ass-kissing of the G.O.P. even if the Dems win the Presidency in 2008.
It's over!:nuke:

We do need a new third party.

[Chicago Democrat]

143. FUCK YOU RAHM!!! You speak for yourself! Fuck OFF!!

Switch parties. GO JUMP IN THE LAKE!


SCREW YOU AND SCREW YOUR FUCKING WAR LOVING BUTT!

[rman]

145. The polls are very clear;

a majority of the population thinks this war stinks and that the president is a lying SOB.

What's backfiring, is the war and the lies.

A rift in the Dem party, you say? With Lieberman on one side and the rest on the other side?

[Peace Patriot]

147. !@#$%^&* !#%&(*&% #@!@!#$%^ %&^&*(* ^%$+@#$% to Democrats who

think that "antiwar remarks could backfire"!

[Demoiselle]

166. Couldn't have put it better myself, Patriot! eom

[leftofthedial]

150. "Democrats Fear" period

[Catfight]

154. by whom? There's no credibility left in the repug camp that anyone

listens to anymore.

[Dances with Cats]

155. Dean and Pelosi and Murtha

are saying what I want to hear. To hell with GOP Lite!

[cureautismnow]

156. Anti-Antiwar Remarks Had Better Backfire

The House and Senate needs to be completely swept clean of any pro-war advocates, whether they are neo-cons or pink tutu dem.'s. Let's put men and women of honor, dignity, integrity, and good conscience in these chambers. War-mongering chickenhawks and their enablers need to be shown the door in 2006.

The times they are a-changing once again.

[Miss Chybil]

167. GROW SOME F*CKING BALLS!

Any Dem who can't stand the heat, needs to get out of the kitchen. QUIT PANDERING TO THE LIARS, THE MURDERERS AND THE THIEVES MASQUERADING AS "PEOPLE OF FAITH!"

[unkachuck]

169. atta boy rahm, steny and jimmy....

....and let's not forget uncle joe....great job!....you guys have gotten bushs numbers up from 35 to 40, keep up the good work....remember, we have to get bushs numbers well over 50 by next summer if he's going to be effective next fall so he can help us hold on to the congress....thanks, Karl

[Dances with Cats]

174. Rahm i s Yale

is he Skull and Bones? I doubt it being Jewish....

[unkachuck]

176. I'm not that smart....

....I didn't know they were all Jewish....but they all seem to be very, very republican....

....if what you're doubting is true, coincidence?....either way, are they with us or against us?....I wonder....

[Uncle Joe]

175. I hope you are referring to Joe Leiberman. n/t

[unkachuck]

177. yes sir Uncle Joe....

....I was referring to 'uncle joe' Lieberman....