Murtha Believes U.S. Generals Fear Bush Administration

[sabra]

http://www.wjactv.com/news/5448004/detail.html

Murtha Believes U.S. Generals Fear Bush Administration


JOHNSTOWN -- The current issue of The New Yorker Magazine has an article that in it alleges that many of our military's most senior generals are deeply frustrated by the happenings in Iraq, but won't go public for fear they may jeopardize their career. Congressman John Murtha says he knows about these fears.

The article quotes an unnamed former defense official saying the administration has "so terrified the generals that they know they won't go public." The article goes on to say that legislators were told in meetings with enlisted men, junior officers, and generals that things weren't up to par. But in a teleconference with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, those soldiers kept their criticisms to themselves. Congressman Murtha agrees with these claims.

There's nobody who talks more to the military than I do. I've been doing it for 30 years. They tell me privately how they feel. They're afraid to say something. This administration fired Shinseki and they scare them. But that's not the it should be. Maybe telling them privately and just not speaking publicly as they tell me, says Representative Murtha.

[AnnieBW]

1. Rock My World!

Go Murtha! That old jarhead is rockin' my world again! :D

[Sperk]

2. so much for bravery....how do you go from being willing to give your

life for your country but not being willing to give your career for it? For chrissakes, if they all came out together Chimpy couldn't do a damn thing. They'd probably get a multi million book deal out of it to boot.
Go figure.

[zanne]

17. VERY good point, Sperk

I never looked at it that way.

[petgoat]

65. Generals don't give their lives for their countries; to hear

Patton tell it their whole schtick is to put our "bastards" in a position to make "the other poor dumb bastard to die for his country."

[sendero]

20. Exactly..

.... what I was thinking.

Some of these guys are going to have a hard time looking in the mirror someday.

Didn't we learn ANYTHING from Vietnam?

[0007]

21. Perhaps the reason they don't come out in lock step is

because of the competiness of the rank and file order is such a cut throat game no one indeed can trust anyone. Look at all the generals that have been taken down by Rummy. Tis rumsfeld's way or the highway.

Here is a quote from the madman.

"Your performance depends on your people. Select the best, train them and back them. When errors occur, give sharper guidance. If errors persist or if the fit feels wrong, help them move on. The country cannot afford amateur hour in the White House."
Donald Rumsfeld

[Ilsa]

24. Well said! What is it with these guys anyway?

And why don't they band together to object? At least by doing that, it will call attention to the issues even if they all get canned.

[MADem]

25. I am going to give you THEIR PERSPECTIVE

And it is this: It is WAY HARDER to effect change from OUTSIDE the Funny Farm than from within it. Those guys can leave, take their pensions (they've already maxxed out, there's no more dough to be had except for a small amount of cost-of-living increases) and go on to lucrative jobs in the private sector. But they cannot influence events beyond their single complaint--after that, they are on the sidelines, and not in the mix.

And who will replace them, once they are gone? TOADIES--plain, craven, power-mad TOADIES. Don't forget, flag and general promotions are PERSONALLY vetted by the Monkey. The Senate has an advise and consent role, but unless the Monkey sends down a list of perverts and child molesters, the Senate will rubber-stamp the list (unless they are holding it up to make a point about Defense spending).

So long as they remain on active duty, they can't go over the head of the Commander in Chief to the public. That is why Murtha is carrying their water for them. They of course, CAN TELL THE MONKEY, but they are unable to get through the filter. The only people from DOD who see him are Rummy and Pace. And obviously the message is NOT getting through.

What those guys did, by getting the word to Murtha, was VERY BRAVE. You have to be in it to know how it works. They did a good thing, and deserve real credit for it. I'd rather have guys on the INSIDE with a realistic worldview, than have them on the outside whining "We told ya so."

[glitch]

33. Me too. It worries me a lot if all the good guys leave the military

what's left? The bush toadies and cultists and the kind of people who commit war crimes.

[saigon68]

74. Very good point

[Tight_rope]

58. Yeah they could retire with lots of cushion.

[pokercat999]

60. Generals and other top brass are

was past "giving their life". In any war they are probably safer than me and you.

When was the last time we "lost" a general? Maybe Vietnam (I like it as one word)

[Burried News]

3. Fear and loathing ... a bitter harvest for the Presidents to come. nt

[lanlady]

4. cowards, all of them

So they continue sending 20 yr old kids to die or be maimed because they're too chickenshit to stand up to the Frat Boy in Chief.

[MADem]

Dupe, sorry

[MADem]

26. See my post, above. They are NOT cowards. n/t

[bahrbearian]

42. So then they must be "Toadies" ?

[MADem]

49. No, if they were toadies they'd be smiling and nodding, all in a row

...and standing behind Rummy with big grins on their faces. Instead, they are taking "long lunches" and wandering off to use a throw-away cellphone, or jumping on the metro and skulking up to the Hill to meet with Murtha and give him the tools he needed to take the case to the American people.

Look, the military leadership is not ELECTED and does not REPRESENT US--that is NOT their job, their job is to defend the nation, basta. They are not supposed to participate in politics at all.

I know that environment--what they did took guts. I salute each and every one of them who had the balls to seek out the right guy to gripe to.

[lanlady]

78. I stand by my words

I read your posts with interest and respect your point of view, MADem. But coming on the heels of Abu Ghraib, where the brass made grunts like Lyndie England take all the rap, I maintain that we have some despicable cowards wearing stars on their shoulders.

[Strelnikov_]

5. Interview w/ Murtha On NPR Today

Murtha: Military Supports Call for Iraq Withdrawal

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5035043


I particularly like how he was getting testy with the (typical) milquetoast NPR interviewer when she maintained her incredulousness that the military leadership is singing a different song off the record.

Fear of being Shinsheki'd was brought up.

On Edit: These articles strengthen my feeling that we are closer to a military coup than anytime since the Civil War. As Murtha said, the troops are coming home (implying one way or another) 'by the end of the year' (2006).

Listen to the 6:45 min. mark, the disgust in Murtha's voice, as he states it is up to The Chimp how he is going to explain withdrawal when his current position is 'Stay The Course'.

[warrens]

47. I heard that last night. Melissa was not being a milquetoast

She was trying to get him to say it straight out, which he finally did. The interview warmed my heart. This guy is going to be lethal if he campaigns for some of our returning vets running as Dems.

[Meldread]

6. Of course they are afraid.

Everyone is afraid of their boss when they know if they miss step even a little bit they'll lose their job, even if they spent the entire lives working their way up the ladder.

...and it isn't Bush they are afraid of - he's clueless. It's Cheney and Rove. It is highly likely that we know more about what is going on than Bush does, and he probably believes that everything in Iraq really is going well. He probably also can't fathom why we don't think the same as well, he's totally clueless.

If we wanted to really light a fire in the Bush Administration someone should smuggle a letter to Bush filling him in on what everyone is saying behind his back. He'd likely kill 'em both after he finds out his name is going to go down in the history books as the worst American President Ever.

[aquart]

7. Once again, career over country.

Are we supposed to admire these comfortable men?

[cliss]

10. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy for these men.

They've been forced to choose: your conscience or your job. They chose their jobs.

If it was me, and I knew MY PEOPLE were getting killed in a needless battle, I would march into Rumsfailed's office and tell him. Considering my CIVILIAN Pentagon chief, I would have no problem telling him how it is. Rumsfool doesn't give a shit about the troops. He once called the army "kids who can't aim".

It would be no great loss; I wouldn't be able to work in an environment like that, anyway.

[MADem]

29. Bullshit!!!!!

If they leave, as I said above, who replaces them? Toadies who will gleefully send more and more kids to die, who will advocate a draft, who will do whatever the Monkey wants, all because they want the stars, the car, the personal staff....

These guys have the CORRECT POINT OF VIEW. They want us OUT of Iraq, they never wanted us in there in the first place, they think this war is a disaster, and they want to change the course of events. And just so you know, they have a meeting with Rummy every morning around 0730, and these views HAVE been forwarded, but no one is taking them to the White House. The meme, in essence, is "Who cares what you assholes think? Do what I tell you to do!"

If they were such lazy, unthinking types, they would have gone along, and got along. They would not have asked Murtha to step forward as they did, and there was great risk in doing that.

I'd rather have guys in there who know what needs to be done to extract us from this mess in there, than some syncophants appointed by the Monkey who will shut up and do what they are told.

They worked WITHIN THE SYSTEM....and they did it the right way. We do NOT need military officers DIRECTLY INSERTING THEMSELVES into the political process. The only way to do it is indirectly. Remember that idiot Boykin, getting up in church in uniform, telling us how Muslims do not worship a REAL GOD? That's what happens when you let military personnel spout off in public....good officers follow the chain, and if they have a crisis of conscience, they find someone in the public eye who can be convinced of their viewpoint, and let THEM carry the message forward.

[JawJaw]

32. Toadies Be Damned!

If 2 or 3 of these generals made a joint statement, SHOUTED IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS and backed each other up it would be far more difficult for BushCo to "retire" them quietly.

Sometimes, the time for pussyfooting around passes. The Murtha tip-off was a good first step for them. Now they need to take ACTION themselves and protect the country they swore allegiance to all those years ago.

[MADem]

34. They'd be courts-martialed, marginalized, and painted as CRAZIES

...and then, everyone in the organization who agreed with them would lower their heads and try to stay under the radar. For a single moment of drama, the momentum would be destroyed, and the cause endangered.

They played it exactly right. They got a politician to advance a political view. We do not need generals messing directly in politics, either from the right or the left. It is completely INAPPROPRIATE. They must be perceived as staying above that, else we'll turn into Turkey.

[Wordie]

71. Thanks for presenting this point of view. I would not have thought of

it this way all on my own, without hearing how it works from you. It does seem to make a lot of sense. And your point about who would replace these guys makes a lot of sense to me, too. If they were to leave, their replacements would certainly be worse. (Think of the proposed replacement for Justice O'Connor.)

[necso]

8. There are good officers

of flag rank, officers whose restraint, I imagine, comes from more than concern about their careers.

[Strelnikov_]

9. Agree. Wes Clark Is Not An Anomaly

I think they have been biding their time, hoping for improvement, trying to make the best of things, as any Professional does when they are placed in a difficult situation.

I view Murtha's statement of a few weeks ago to be the signal that this detente, along with our Iraq adventure, is coming to an end, one way or another.

I think you get the drift.

[necso]

11. I anticipate nothing from the military

beyond obeying their orders.

[Shipwack]

13. Maybe, but there are mighty few

IMNSHO

In my 20 year career, I have found that there are very few officers above the level of lieutenant (O-3) that are worth a damn... and the higher you go, the fewer there are. Officers get recommended and promoted by how much ass they kiss and how good they make their superiors look and feel. Those who put their country or men first get sidelined.

[Freedomfried]

14. I'll second that!

To this day the dumbest people I have ever met in my lifetime were some of the Senior officers I met in the military.

They could of never made a supervisory position in the civilian job market.

[necso]

23. The plural requires

only that there be more than one.

Navy (or less likely, the Coast Guard), I take it.

[MADem]

36. I've met some stellar flag and general officers

For every lousy one, there are at least two who are true professionals and take their responsibilities seriously. The real good ones are rather humble, too. And that's smart--because the responsibility can be awesome, and if you do the job right, it weighs on you. The good leader worries about every single person in their command.

It helps if they stay operational as much as possible. Spend too much time in DC, and some of them get that Potomac Fever...but the ones who regularly return to operational assignments, and don't try to minimum-tour them so they can get back to the bright lights, are the ones who are worth their weight in gold. Tony Zinni was like that--he never let the grass grow under his feet.

[Critters2]

54. I believe this

I have to deal with a retired 3-star Air Force gen. A real jerk, a total ass. He thinks he owns the world, or should. Orders people around like he's God. And he's a committed neo-con, to boot. Thinks attacking Iraq was a great idea! Of course, West Point boys like him aren't the ones dying. Really the man is a walking ego.

[Demeter]

12. Why Should the Military Feel Any Different From Us?

I've feared these crooks since day 1 of the non-election. The military are the first victims (after those who suffered from the corporate fraud and embezzlements.)

[MADem]

50. Damn straight--you got that exactly right

A commander who commits his forces to a conflict that is poorly planned, executed 'on the cheap,' with an open-ended mission statement and no methodology to extricate is a FAILURE. These guys do NOT want to fail, the KNOW to do it right, but they are hamstrung by assholes who currently masquerade as the 'civilian control of the military' leadership, who have never served and just do not get it.

[Jim__]

15. A military run by generals whose biggest concern is for their own careers

is a military in deep, deep trouble.

[JohnstownDEM]

16. yeah

I saw that on WJAC this morning when I was getting ready for work.

[CabalPowered]

18. Hmmm makes you wonder about General Byrnes... nt

[rodeodance]

19. military promotions are at stake.

[leesa]

22. So what's all this stuff about big, brave, generals then? Did they, or

did they not, take an oath to defend their country against all enemies, including DOMESTIC enemies?

[MADem]

27. They sure did, and if they did not give a shit, Murtha would never have

spoken out, because NO ONE WOULD HAVE COMPLAINED TO HIM.

Those guys beat a fucking path to his door. They always trusted him, he always trusted them. They got one of the biggest hawks in the House to carry their water for them, because there WAS NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT without getting their ass handed to them and their lives destroyed.

What would all of these complainers prefer? Idealistic martyrs on the outside looking in, or realistic guys who want to stop the madness in Iraq, and know how to get their point across to the American people without throwing themselves on their swords to do it?

Who will do the hard work of getting us out of there, if these guys are sacrificed?

[donkeyotay]

28. Privatization is working out so well

The corrupt defense contractors are more powerful than the military and don't play by the same rules. The generals should be afraid along with the rest of the country.

[Straight Shooter]

30. They were never afraid of the Clinton administration.

Regardless what the right wing says, Clinton had enough respect for the military that he and his associates never overtly or covertly threatened generals in retaliation for speaking the truth. Somalia, Kosovo, no matter what one thinks of those "engagements," Clinton listened and acted accordingly.

Milosovec ended up at The Hague for his trial. Where is Saddam? In a dog and pony show in Iraq. Just goes to show you ....

[Kolesar]

31. They f*cking cheered at the "change of command" when Bush took over

I saw the ceremony on cspan in Late January 2001. Now there are a few of them who cannot clap anymore.

[DainBramaged]

35. They wished for this incoherent little bastard to be pResident

And they got him. He doesn't visit the wounded unless it's a photo op, he won't go to their funerals, he speaks out of both sides of his mouth when sober, and he let them die so he could prove to his Mommy he had a bigger dick than Dad.

He is a coward, just like we said, just like they hoped he wouldn't be. And he's broken THEIR military.

How many wish the Big Dog was still President now?

[amandabeech]

37. I wonder how many of them wish that Kerry or Gore were President

now. Both actually served in Vietnam, not in a champagne Guard unit here, and both Kerry and Gore are capable of learning and changing their minds when the evidence warrants.

Wouldn't that be refreshing.

[DainBramaged]

39. I sometimes drift before sleep thinking what if.

We will change history in 2006. He will be barricaded and blocked from any legislation that would damage the land and our Constitution. Then we can rectify the situation in 2008. I think more and more, how important a military candidate will be for us.

Let we as a party finally make the right choice.

[MADem]

56. Many, MANY did not--and you will have to just trust me on this

Initially, there was some belief that Monkey would reverse the troop cuts inspired by the SECDEF Cheney (under Poppy) drawdown scheme. That hope was quickly put to rest. The minute Wolfie was floated as SECDEF, and then, when that became problematic, Rummy, a lot of the old hands became very, very concerned, because they saw what was coming--way too much contracting, outsourcing, and doing the mission on the cheap. Some of them even remembered Rummy from the first time around, and Wolfie ended up as his number two for a long period there, making their lives miserable on an up close and personal level.

It was so easy for the media to play this Clinton-Military hatefest nonsense, but a lot of people at the upper levels admired the hell out of him. Why? He appointed a sharp, smart SECDEF, he LISTENED carefully to the folks at the Pentagon, he met regularly with the JCS and asked cogent questions, and he took good advice. He never was possessed with the level of hubris that these civilian chickenhawks in charge have nowadays, and he did more for Quality of Life for military families than any president has done before or since.

[DainBramaged]

73. But not enough did resist

2300 dead, tens of thousands wounded, broken obsolete equipment, lowered benefits and broken promises.

The strong defense Repukes, stealing America's might for themselves.

[MADem]

76. You don't think those guys did not ask for that stuff when they submitted

their annual budgets? Of COURSE they did. When it got up to the damn E Ring, Rummy stood up at his little architect's desk (he works standing up, in hiking boots, I shit you not) and redlined a whole load of high-cost items. Why? Because he knew how much he could get away with when submitting the appropriation...and then, once it gets to the Congress and they do the mark-up, even more stuff gets redlined. And of course, if you give the troops what they need, there's less for the Halliburton/KBR types....no graft for the war profiteers. But you cannot blame that on the military, that's what the civilian overseers laid on them.

You basically know, when you are crunching your numbers, to ask for twenty five percent more stuff than you figure you are gonna get. If it's a good year, you'll get enough cash and stuff to keep going, if it is a great year, you'll get five percent more than you counted on, and if it is a bad year, you are scrounging in garbage heaps for metal to weld on to your crappy Humvee....

[DainBramaged]

79. They BURIED Cheney's attempt to dismantle the Armed Forces

when these clowns took the People's house hostage. And I just wish some talking head in the MSM would remind that walking battery of his attempt to do that.

Maybe then the lemmings in uniform and at home will start to believe.

[MADem]

81. No they didn't--they fought it, but they lost

Personnel mamagement plans are put out like old Soviet War and Economic documents--five year plans. TERA (Temporary Early Retirement Authority), the Early Out programs, the increased physical readiness standards as a force shaping tool, the tougher requirements for promotion, the change in High Year Tenure limits, all of that was designed to shrink the force, and Cheney was the architect. It was written in such a way that it did not kick in until after Bill got into the WH, and really cause some pain by the mid to late 90's, but Poppy would have been dealing with it just a bit in his last two years had he won a second term.

And the whole process is like a rolling train--you have BRAC, you have to cut bodies, you cut mission, you have to cut bodies, you cut platforms (aircraft, surface ships, etc.) you have to cut bodies....it all rolls downhill.

Ironically, if it weren't for Clinton, we would not have respectable drone aircraft capability--plenty of people wanted to axe that program, but he personally made sure it stayed in.

I worked that shit, I know where it started!!! It was pretty ugly when it was happening, too!

[W stands for Wacko]

38. Military now guided by Neo-con soldiers of fortune hired by Wall Street?

I. Scooter Libby and the rest of PNAC, or at least those of them that served in the U.S. military before becoming soldiers of fortune.

[Pavulon]

75. Most of the Command level

guys came in in the 70's and 80's.

[tabasco]

40. Then they don't deserve to wear the uniform.

Lack of moral courage is a disqualifying factor for a US military officer. Officers afraid to speak the truth should be discharged, but they are PROMOTED by the corrupt Bu$h cabal !

[WhiteTara]

41. and who would want a career as a torturer

or murderer of children, women and old people (not so many there for them to kill anymore). If I were them, I would throw my uniform on the table and walk out naked. That would bring honor. I expect that soon there will be a new military code...no shaving.

[loveandlight]

43. generals speaking to Murtha is a good sign

Anyone in the military command who has spoken up publicly against this administration has been demoted or fired. It doesn't surprise me that any current military officials who have worries about what is going on are trying to find other outlets for getting their concerns out there. If things ever do get out in the open and there is any potential for change, we certainly need those with any conscience still left in leadership positions in the military. Good for Murtha for taking the brave step in expressing their concerns and trying to make things happen to the good.

[CANDO]

44. Murtha for President - '08!!!!

We need to talk to this man about a possible run in '08. He'd only be 76. Wasn't Raygun in his seventies when he took office in "81?

[VegasWolf]

46. No shit!!! A Democrat with BALLS! I agree. I would donate! nt

[Jimbo S]

62. Ready for another round of "Swift Boating"?

The man is hero, but that won't deter the neo-cons.

[bklyncowgirl]

72. Whoever the Democrats run will be "Swift Boated" one way or the other

I wouldn't discount Murtha just because of fears that someone will call his military career into question.

The Republican attack machine is a multi-armed monster and can go after anyone because everybody has something to hide--and if they don't have something to hide the Republicans will just make it up.

[MADem]

77. Too old, but I could live with MURTHA FOR SECDEF 08

...assuming we get a nice comfy margin in the House.

[moondust]

45. You do not speak the truth to Hitler

if you value anything you have including your life.

[Critters2]

53. They don't mind the grunts dying

The longer they stay quiet, the more REAL soldiers die in Iraq. What the hell are they afraid of? Losing their pensions?! If they believe something is wrong they should say so--courts-martial or no!! I guess this is how they got those jobs at the Pentagon in the first place.

Big, brave generals afraid of the chimp. Geez!

:banghead:

[Generator]

57. In a way you are right

Bush is a Christian who believes "God" has approved of this war, and don't you DARE tell him differently. That is some scary shit. He's a believer like Hilter all right, just in another philosophy but same deal-he can do no wrong. Also,Bush and his ilk-especially Cheney are more like Mafia Dons-and all they value is loyalty. That is some scary shit as well. We are FUCKED as I've been telling everyone, I believe Murtha-I believe Seymour Hersh who has been writing about this since before the election. Anyone with a plan like Kerry or whomever is kidding themselves. You cannot reason with someone who acts like a King and believes he has a mandate from God. All you can do is get Bush out. That's our only hope-however slim to none it is.

[lovuian]

48. Military is scared of their leader... thats a very bad sign...

there suppose to be the brave ones and step up and tell him he sucks!!!

Is this country like Hitler time when Rommell was afraid to talk to him!!!

[savemefromdumbya]

51. they probably have mortgages and kids at private schools

:sarcasm:

[savemefromdumbya]

52. they probably have mortgages and kids at private schools

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

55. I really can't believe the money

these guys make. You should see the house my local retired 3-star moron lives in. And then I keep hearing that the guys in Iraq need money for phone cards, etc. These rich general types could take a cut in pay and support the real soldiers. Of course, they won't, but they should.

[VegasWolf]

59. No shit! Wouldn't you be afraid of a homicidal maniac searching for

a bottle of Jack Daniels?

[rocktivity]

61. Retroactive Winner of the November "You Call This NEWS?" Award

If they're not smart enough to have figured out that not telling Bush what he wants to hear gets you fired, they OUGHT to be fired!

:headbang:
rocknation

[dogfacedboy]

63. As part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice

people in the military are forbidden to criticize the civilian leadership, i.e. Bush, Rumsfeld, et al. It is a crime if they do so.
I'm sure that the criminal Bush administration considered this.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madmark]

66. Our guys in the military are in a tough spot because its their job

to carry out the orders of the civilian leadership, whether they believe the civilian leadership to be competent or fuck ups. If they didn't we would have a military dictatorship akin to what Pakistan has currently. Its almost patriotic that they continue to do their duty obeying the civilian leadership when its clearly pushing a foolish, damaging counterproductive war. Obvious there are limits to this obediance, ie. war crimes or turning on the US citizenry, but this does not extend to incompetence or lack of judgment. That's our job to remove the incompetents through elections.

[happydreams]

67. How about setting up some kind of safe haven

so they can go on the record without fear of repercussions. Peoples lives are at stake here.

[DaveColorado]

68. Murtha personifies Bravery

[luciferic]

69. A pollie with some integrity - how unusual ...

But will he get suicided ?

[Chicago Democrat]

70. What a man! What a man! What a man! What a mighty good Man!

A MIGHTY MIGHTY GOOD MAN!


:)

hope springs eternal

[jokerman93]

80. Could it be?

Maybe it's not so simple. Could it be there's more at stake here than careers? We're dealing with a para-national corporate cabal that demonstrably operates with contempt for the rule of law. They justify their bloodthirsty actions with the rhetoric of "necessity in a time of war". Remember what these people want and then consider what they might be willing to do to get it. I'm reasonably certain they aren't willing to let a handful of soldiers (regardless of rank) get in their way.

I'm just saying...

[jackieMN]

82. Hitler Reincarnated

Hitler brainwashed his military, and I'm afraid it could be happening here, too. History does repeat itself, and you have to look at the Bush family's relationships with the Hitler agenda, with the Bin Ladens, REC 84-FEMA, etc... to really understand. When you take things for granted, you sometimes are taken advantage of.