Furore over ex-marine's account of killing of civilians

[cal04]

For 20 months, former US marine Staff Sergeant Jimmy Massey has claimed in numerous interviews that he and his platoon killed unarmed civilians during the invasion of Iraq. Last year The Independent on Sunday was one of the first newspapers to publish his story, which has never been challenged by the Marine Corps. But now that Mr Massey's autobiography, Kill, Kill, Kill, has been published in France and is being considered for publication in the US, a reporter who was embedded with the 1,200-man battalion has questioned the veracity of his claims.

Earlier this month Ron Harris wrote a series in his newspaper, the St Louis Post-Dispatch, under headlines that included, "Is Jimmy Massey Telling the Truth About Iraq?". The articles seized on minor discrepancies of detail and implied that, because Mr Massey suffers from depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, he is less than reliable. Mr Harris's articles were immediately taken up by the pro-war lobby, triggering diatribes against Mr Massey on the internet. The first piece was circulated to media by Lt Col Richard Long, public affairs officer at Marine Corps headquarters and director of the embedded reporter programme in Iraq.

But when Mr Harris appeared on CNN to accuse Mr Massey of lying, claiming he had witnessed the incidents described by the marine, he in turn was challenged by another journalist. Jeff Schmerker, a reporter for The Mountaineer in North Carolina, said Mr Harris told him that he did not see the events with his own eyes. The St Louis Post-Dispatch man was assigned to a different company in the battalion from Mr Massey's. The sergeant's main charge is not denied by the reporter or the Marine Corps. "Yes, marines killed civilians," said Mr Harris. "I even reported on the shooting and killing of a British TV crew while I was in Iraq."

In December 2004, the Marine Corps spokesman at the Pentagon, Major Douglas Powell, told MSNBC: "We're not saying he's lying, but his perception of what the situation was in relation to the rules of engagement, and what was justified, is different than ours." Yet Mr Harris has contacted several other newspapers that published stories on Mr Massey and asked them to retract their articles publicly. The Sacramento Bee ran an editorial confessing, "It was an error of judgement. Before we published the story, we should have called the Marine Corps for a response."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article328159.ece

[meganmonkey]

1. The plot thickens

:popcorn:

[jody]

2. Deleted n/t

[jody]

3. So Massey's statement is true but killing was OK per rules of engagement.

[stillcool]

4. un..frigging...believable....

and of course, this story will never get the play that the "Massey Lied" one did. The most upsetting thing of all is while i understand the tendency to shoot the messenger, the rabid response to this poor guy, here on DU took my breath away. i hope some of those posters feel the sting of their words reflected right back at them.

[meganmonkey]

5. That was my first thought too

I remember those threads, it was kind of messed up. You said it very nicely though. I knew I couldn't, so I didn't

:thumbsup:

[stillcool]

6. well...I think I'll just add the link to...

that lively discussion in case any forget their words...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1904901

Sun Nov-06-05 01:16 PM
Original message
Is Jimmy Massey telling the truth about Iraq? (Marine atrocities made up?)

[Judi Lynn]

8. I didn't have time to read it originally.It's very interesting NOW!Thanks.

[stillcool]

14. ..it looks like those who crucified..

the guy would prefer to leave him on the cross. On a supposed democratic site it speaks volumes about the nature of the people of this nation, and the enormity of our social ills.

[meganmonkey]

16. I posted a GD thread about this

To increase exposure. So far it got a rec, but no replies....

:popcorn:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5412407

[Catrina]

7. Someone better send this to Fox 'News'

I just saw them call Massey a liar as if it had been established and wondered what I had missed since I thought he had only been 'accused' of lying.

The reason I believe him is because of other soldiers who have told similar stories. Eg, I remember reading a tragic story of one soldier who was so depressed when he returned home, his family did not know what to do. Before he killed himself, he had asked a family member one day 'did you know that children gurgle when they are dying'. He had not spoken much at all about his experiences, and they were shocked by the question.

Sgt Kevin Bendermann, currently serving 15 months in prison for refusing to return to Iraq, has also stated that he refused to follow orders to shoot at civilians, sometimes children.

And then there are all the other stories of people being shot at checkpoints, the most memorable ones being the Italian journalist and the agent who had rescued her. The Italians are asking that the troops involved be extradited to Italy for trial. Then there was the little girl that sat in the dark, covered in her parents blood, screaming after her parents were shot to death at a checkpoint.

This war should never have happened ~ and I blame the liars who got us into it for everything that is happening there. I don't know why they have gone after Massey particularly. He isn't the only one to have told stories like this. And the world has seen the torture pictures. We don't exactly have the moral highground anymore ~

[Judi Lynn]

9. Have you seen this, yet, by Jimmy Massey?

November 10, 2005

Smear Job
Is Ron Harris Telling the Truth?
By JIMMY MASSEY

Prior to the Marine Corps' briefing my unit to refuse to make any comment regarding me, my claims were corroborated in interviews with my fellow platoon members conducted by Natasha Saulnier, the co-author of my autobiography "Kill, Kill, Kill." One of my platoon members, speaking from Camp Pendleton, CA, last winter, admitted that "Civilians get in the way Yes, there were civilian casualties, women and children as well we didn't check them up to see if they had weapons yes, that was at the checkpoint where all the stuff happened." Another said, "We were all pissed off . Nobody was doing it on purpose," and another corroborated the incident in which our platoon had fired on and killed unarmed protestors.
(snip)

Major newspapers and media outlets published my story. Neither the Marine Corps nor any of my platoon members filed any charges against me as a result of my claims in over 20 months. Nor did they attempt any defamation campaign to counteract my allegations that the large numbers of civilians killed in the invasion, as a result of failed strategies, fomented anti-American sentiment, and fueled the insurgency.

Until Saturday.
(snip)

Harris not only was not assigned to my Weapon's Company, (he was with Lima), and was not present for any of the incidents he disputes, but before last week, had not spoken with me once since my return.
(snip)

Harris' apparent contempt for me seems to stem from the fact that one and a half years ago, I exposed him for having greatly embellished an incident at Rasheed Military complex in his April 9, 2003, article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch. (Note the caption confirming Harris' assignment to Lima Company). In the article, Harris described a dramatic, daylong battle glorifying heroic deeds and describing guerillas "hiding behind civilians." Speaking at the Boston Veterans for Peace Convention in 2004, I said Harris had greatly exaggerated the combat in what was subsequently hailed as an example of American military prowess. I confessed publicly that"contact that day was thin and sporadic," and that "as my unit entered Iraq it came upon empty Iraqi military bases with weapons lying on the road." I noted that We shot it up with everything we had, and we were laughing and having a good time. The Iraqis let us in the country; we didn't take it.'

It is ironic that Ron Harris should accuse others of bad reporting. It was Ron Harris himself that misquoted me as having mentioned a 4 year old with a bullet in her head, and then conveniently used his own misquote to accuse me of lying. Simply doing a web search for "Jimmy Massey" and "4 year old," you will find that the only source even suggesting that I knew of an incident when Marines had killed the child is Harris' own story. My only related quote had been "Lima Company was involved in a shooting at a checkpoint. My platoon was ordered to another area before the victims were removed from the car. The other Marines told me that a 4-year-old girl had been killed."
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/massey11102005.html

[meganmonkey]

10. Yeah, of course this didn't get covered like Harris' remarks

The whole thing reeks of swiftboating tactics. I want to keep this kicked so the people who participated in the smear thread can see all this...

Needs one more nomination to get to the front page.

:kick:

[leftchick]

22. Thank you for this Judi Lynn. I wonder if Faux is paying Harris?

I have not followed this story at all for some reason. I never participated in that earlier thread trashing Massey. This article really clears things up and I can't help but wonder if someone is paying Mr. Harris for his slanderous remarks. I can't believe it is mere payback.

[BrklynLiberal]

11. The military's whole goal is to make killing machines out of its soldiers

Then when these soldiers do the job the military trained them to do...and tell about it, they are condemned.
THAT IS WHY WAR IS SO BAD!!! IT KILLS PEOPLE!! IT IS NOT PRETTY! IT IS NOT HUMANE!
GOOD PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS DURING WAR!!
I would think these guys all feel horrible for what they did...that is what PTS is all about. Bush's military makes them into killing machines, and then does not want to take any responsibilty for the consequences.
How many of these guys have we read about that come home and kill themselves and/or their families..and we never really understand why?

It is a tragedy for all involved.

[Greyhound]

12. K & R

[druidity33]

13. check it out!

Democracy Now! had an interview/debate with Massey and the reporter in question...

link here:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/14/1447248&mode=thread&tid=25

[AngryAmish]

15. They are killing children

Of course they are war criminals. Bush is Hitler and we have our own SS.

[Amonester]

17. CO Kevin Benderman refused: "We all looked at each other like

... that man has lost his mind."

KB: "Well, I’ll tell you where I’ve exercised that moral choice. When that captain, who I was with me over there, ordered the people—including me—to shoot small children that were throwing rocks at us, and I refused to obey that order, I exercised that moral choice in that particular case, that particular incident. When that order was given, we ignored it. We all looked at each other like, that man has lost his mind. So I would say that everyone who was with me at that time exercised their moral choice not to follow that illegal order." -Kevin Benderman

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7092


Take Action! Release US Conscientous Objector Kevin Benderman
http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=12083

Kevin Benderman Defense Committee:
http://www.topia.net/kevinbenderman.html

[MetaTrope]

19. So when do troops move from exercising moral choice regarding orders

to passing judgement on those commanding officers?

[libnnc]

18. Here's the Mountaineer's OpEd on the story

<snip> Massey, in an e-mail to The Mountaineer and others, responded that Harris was mounting a rebuttal in part because the former Marine accused the reporter of embellishing details of a 2003 story, and part as a cover for what Massey called Harris’ own lackluster reporting. He further said his military superiors had been interviewed and none would go on record condemning him or filed charges against him. <snip>

<snip> Marine investigators in 2004 released a one-page rebuttal of Massey’s claims, saying they were “unsubstantiated” and that whatever Massey and the other Marines did in Iraq, they did not violate American military rules of engagement — an explanation that raised many questions. But investigators provided no further details. Repeated requests for additional information by The Mountaineer went unanswered. In an interview with Harris last spring — one which Harris now denies took place — Harris told The Mountaineer that he was aware of two instances when Marines shot unarmed civilians but that he did not witness the events Massey was describing. <snip>


http://www.themountaineer.com/archives/2005/11/18/ourviews_exmarinejimmymasseyi.html

[wishlist]

20. The newspaper raises more doubt about Harris' credibility than Massey's

These tidbits are quite interesting:

"In an interview with Harris last spring — one which Harris now denies took place — Harris told The Mountaineer that he was aware of two instances when Marines shot unarmed civilians but that he did not witness the events Massey was describing... Massey’s commanding officer in Iraq, Major Daniel Schmitt, wrote this to The Mountaineer in 2004: “There were civilians injured and killed during our last fight. What everyone needs to know is the measures that we took to avoid that.” Schmitt called Massey “ineffective at leading Marines in the trials of combat” but said “There is no profit for anyone by discrediting his story in any way.” Schmitt did not respond to additional requests for information.

Finding soldiers who served with Massey in Iraq who are able to back up — or shoot down — his story proved similarly troublesome.

The Mountaineer obtained a list of Marines who served with Massey; one of whom, according to Massey, served as Massey’s driver. None of them responded to requests for interviews.

Despite the publicity his story generated, the military has not disputed it, and in fact, has confirmed that civilians die during war, something most already knew. The simple fact that officials refuse to comment on a story is not reason to dispute its facts — after all, consider the chilling effect on questioning authority if an uncomfortable situation could simply be dismissed with a “no comment.”

[libnnc]

21. and apparently they've taken

a bunch of heat for printing the stories. This is by no means a "liberal leaning" newspaper. It's about as repug as they come.