(Texas) Gay marriage foes tackle divorce next

[sonicx]

AUSTIN – Texas social conservatives want to translate their resounding victory on a gay marriage ban into broader results: reducing the state's divorce rate and passing a nationwide amendment to prevent same-sex unions.

Rep. Warren Chisum, who wrote the amendment, Proposition 2, endorsed by Texas voters by a ratio of more than 3-1, said Wednesday that it's too easy for spouses to split up. The state should consider repealing or modifying its no-fault divorce law, the Pampa Republican said.

"Gee whiz, our divorce rate's higher than New York," Mr. Chisum said. He proposed that between now and their next regular session in 2007, lawmakers study ways "to make marriage thrive more in our state."

---

Supporters of Proposition 2 said that during debates, they regularly heard gay rights activists cite Texas' divorce rate. Texas had about 3.9 divorces for every 1,000 residents in 2002, a higher rate than New York (3.4) or Massachusetts (2.5), according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

---

A covenant marriage provides an alternative to the traditional marriage contract for couples who oppose no-fault divorce or who want to demonstrate a stronger commitment. Couples selecting a covenant marriage must get premarital counseling and may divorce only after a separation of two years or after proving adultery or domestic abuse.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/111005dntexprop2.7a85398.html

[donco6]

1. Maybe they should have thought of this BEFORE . . .

the anti-gay marriage amendment. I mean, which has more detrimental effects on straight marriage - gay marriage or divorce?

Duh.

[fishwax]

73. exactly

seems like a no-brainer. (which doesn't make the move to make divorce more difficult a good idea, by any means ...)

[mwooldri]

87. Agreed: divorce more problematic than alt marriages any day.

I'm not from Texas (never been there - yet)... but I am surprised how easy divorce can be in NC, where I live now. I am of the "no divorce ever" camp because that is what I've believe in but divorces should be obtainable if needs be, and certainly it needs to be demonstrated that there has been some effort to reconcile the marriage.

Some people do rush into marriages too quickly, and somehow this needs to be discouraged perhaps? How many Las Vegas marriages end quickly? Maybe there needs to be a waiting period before a license is issued? This is a whole can of worms here and I don't think this is the right place to discuss it here and now - another thread perhaps.

However... I'm in agreement with the majority of people on this forum that believe that alternative marriages (as I call them) should and must exist. Personally, I'd like to call it a marriage for homosexuals in all but name (call it a civil union, call it what you will - to keep the traditionalists on board keep the word "marriage" for people of opposite genders) but then it's just my opinion. That vote in Texas was the wrong outcome IMO but then things will change in time.

Mark.

[yankeedem]

88. How about letting consenting adults

of the same sex or different sex decide when and how they want to marry and divorce? If someone wants a quickie divorce, why wouldn't we let them have one?

[BOSSHOG]

2. Keeping people who love each from getting married

will not aid in the sanctity of marriage. Neither will forcing people who dislike each other to stay married. Christian conservatives are morons. Pressing for laws that have no effect on them. Outrageous.

Christians should stop beating their spouses and having sex with their children and leave other Americans the fuck alone.

TAKE AWAY THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS NOW; if they continue to dabble in changing laws of the land.

[rkc3]

16. The Taliban enforced shit like this - can't see how forcing someone

to stay married is any different than outlawing music or prohibiting women from being educated.

If you can show me how it's different I'd love to see it.

[Beartracks]

72. Dissolving loveless unions

I agree. Keeping people from dissolving loveless unions is not the same thing as "making marriage thrive."

[roguevalley]

107. I grew up when divorce was illegal in this country. There was great

strife in home and much abandonment. Let them propose it. Maybe that will be what it takes for Texas to remove their heads from their butts.

[sofa king]

25. Bosshog, those first two sentences are beautiful.

"Keeping people who love each from getting married will not aid in the sanctity of marriage. Neither will forcing people who dislike each other to stay married."

That statement I think cuts to the core of a very important truth. With your permission, I will try to repeat it often.

[BOSSHOG]

37. As they say in the publishing world - LAUNCH IT!

I think it is incredibly pathetic that people stay awake at night trying to figure out how they can run other peoples lives. The sanctity of the constitution is our job one. Christian Conservatives who vote for republicans are the number one domestic enemy of the constitution. Stay the fuck out of our lives. Scream it please. And, thank you.

[LynzM]

53. You're so right, Bosshog

What gets me is that it's not enough for them to make their own decisions... you want to stay married? Fine, stay married, then! But to try to run EVERYONE ELSE'S LIVES, too! GAH!! :grr:

[Hekate]

108. What you said, Bosshog

You would think that right-wing social conservatives would reason that legalizing gay marriage would promote social stability, not the other way around.

But nooo, they are far too busy sticking their noses into people's private lives to reason out any such thing.

They are obsessed with sex and other people's sexual behavior. Absolutely obsessed with it.

It's the Talibornagains who need to get their minds out of the gutter and work on fixing their own family lives, not everyone elses.

Hekate

[ninkasi]

117. I was born in 1943

and used to PRAY that my parents would get a divorce. The only chance of happiness I could foresee for us was with my cold, distant, verbally abusive father out of the picture. Sadly, at that time, divorce was so condemned that it may as well have been illegal. It was certainly harder to obtain.

My childhood, and my brother's, was scarred by having a father like we did. Our mother, gentle, loving, and encouraging, died at the age of 42, in part, I will always believe, from a broken heart.

Of course, I was 19 when she died, but when a total of 5 children all leave home in their teens...I had eloped to a disaster of a marriage 3 years earlier...then there is something wrong with the laws about marriage, division of property, and child custody. This was Texas in the 1960s, and suffice it to say that my father would have held the upper hand in any divorce, should he have chosen to fight it.

This was a long time ago, but conservatives are trying to take us back to the "bad old days", when women were property, and children were less than nothing.

[HockeyMom]

34. Keeping two STRAIGHT Parents who DESPISE each other

from getting a DIVORCE is not the answer either. I am a child of that "let's stay together for the sake of the children" philosophy from the the 1950s/1960s. I used to go to sleep every night wishing my parents WOULD get a divorce. When my Dad was on his deathbed (I was almost 30), he apologized to me for making my childhood so miserable.

Yes, good "christian" marriages stay together. :sarcasm:

[0007]

90. Yes, good "christian" marriages stay together.

Only if they pray together!

[calimary]

44. Truly. This is Exhibit A for why religious extremists should be thoroughly

contained (as in - the way nuclear waste and dioxin spills and toxic seepage need to be thoroughly contained) and their influence severely curtailed. Because once emboldened, they start trying to interfere EVERYWHERE. They ARE the "slippery slope."

[queerart]

45. It Could Not Have Been Stated Any Better

(Christians should stop beating their spouses and having sex with their children and leave other Americans the fuck alone.)


.... and here is a video for anyone that hasn't seen it yet.....

(you will need to turn up/on your speakers)


http://www.abum.com/show/489/858275079.wmv

[OnionPatch]

54. OMG, that was great!!

Thanks for starting my day off right. That was hilarious. Love it, love it, love it!!!! :rofl:

[xxqqqzme]

102. thank you, thank you

that made my day!

[TexasRob]

77. That is rather offensive

Do you seriously think all Christians beat their spouses and have sex with their children? I would wager that the percentage of Christians that engage in this type of behavior is significantly lower than that of non-Christians. And what about the tax exempt status of non-Christian religions? Should a religion that believes gay marriage is acceptable have their tax exempt status removed if they actively try to change the law to make it legal? Furthermore, the law of the land, as it stands now, is that a marriage is between a man and a woman. The Christians are not trying to change that but to keep it from being changed. Personally, it pissed me off when I had to get a marriage license marry my wife. I don't think the government should have any say in marriage whatsoever so don't think that I am coming out in support of the ban on gay marriage. I just don't think it is fair to paint all Christians with such a broad brush. As for creating laws that have no affect on you...well, it is against the law to murder, I am in favor of that law. I have never murdered anyone, nor have I known anyone who was murdered. That is an example of a law that hopefully everyone should be in favor of and just as hopefully, will never apply to you.

[dean_dem]

94. Your broad brush could be taken as just as offensive

"I would wager that the percentage of Christians that engage in this type of behavior is significantly lower than that of non-Christians.

Oh yeah, what do you base that on? Show me a study and I'll shut up, but that's as ridiculous an assertion as you claimed was being made about Christians.

Nice try though, but I don't think BH was implying that Christians are more prone to beat their wives, just that the various churches that are condemning gay marriage should make sure their own house is in order before telling other people what to do. Unlike that statement, yours was just a little offensive on its face. Completely unsubstantiated at that.

And just to make another point: plenty of Southern Baptist churches in the 1960s were resisting integration too. They also weren't trying to change the law, just "keep it from being changed" as you put it. And it was still wrong.

[TexasRob]

115. It's not a matter of a study..

It is a matter of the definition of a Christian. Maybe my definition is different than yours but if a person engages in this type of behavior, I would not consider them a Christian no matter how they identified themselves. So, by the Christian principles by which I was raised (Southern Baptist by the way) if you molest children, beat your spouse (or anyone else,) rape, murder, steal, etc. Then you are not a Christian no matter how often you go to church. In fact I was taught that people who did this type of thing while claiming to be Christians were the worst sinners of all. Also, as a former southern baptist, I have to say that I never once heard anyone speak out against de-segregation. All I heard growing up was that racism was a crime against God since all people were Gods children. Now granted, I was taught that homosexuality was a sin, but never was I taught to hate anyone. Quite the opposite in fact. I was taught to love everyone no matter what and to pray for them. Now it is true that there are a lot of self-righteous, judgmental people that claim to be Christians out there who are all too ready to call names and pass judgment. These are not Christians, good or otherwise. I was taught that it is not OK to judge other people because that is for God alone to do and to do so is also a sin. It always amazes me when I see some idiots holding signs that say "God Hates ___________ " fill in the blank there. These people can't be called Christians because they are not following the teachings of Christ. You may have noticed that I said above that I am a former southern baptist. One of the reasons for that is that I did come into contact with a lot of people like this. I consider these people non-Christians posing as Christians and therefore liars and hypocrites.

[xxqqqzme]

101. Maybe not but I do take a HUGE

exception to being called 'baby killer' and 'faggot lover' by those very same good christians. These are the same breed of christians that would warn you that your property value would drop if those __gge_s moved in next door or called you a __gge_ lover because I believed all persons should be treated equally. I'll take a non-christian ANY day over some self-righteous, judgmental 'good' christan.

[TankLV]

118. I have seriousdoubts you are here to suport democratic ideals.

I do notice cleaver repuke talking points in your arguments.

Very telling.

But thanks for just joining up to spew this crap.

[dsc]

91. Since when would making divorce harder not affect them?

Henry Hyde, Newt Ginrich, Elizabeth Dole, Bob Barr, Ronald Reagan, need I go on. All of the above would be either single or married to someone else if divorce were illegal.

[fortyfeetunder]

112. I nominate you for Quote of the week!

Couldn't have said that better.

[ninkasi]

116. You are so right!

Keeping gays from marrying has zilch to do with my marriage. If my husband or I are unhappy, and want a divorce, what will be gained by forcing us to stay together, except for misery? Of course, the right-wing Christian fundies have orgasms at the thought of being able to cause the rest of us grief.

I truly believe that these are the most evil, sadistic, perverted group in the country today. I prefer to live my life, and interact with my spouse and children, according to our own beliefs, needs, and wants. I do NOT want some twisted version of what other people perceive to be the truth control what I do.

A man very, very dear to me is gay, and he and his partner of almost 15 years have adopted a son from the Ukraine. They are both well paid professionals, loving, stable, positive parents and role models for their son.

It makes me irate to see that some ignorant bigots in this country still try to deny this loving family a chance at happiness, just to satisfy their own twisted, perverted view of the world. I agree...TAKE AWAY THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS NOW. They are very smug about imposing their own narrow mind views on others, I pray for the day when progressives are in the majority in this country, and laws can conform to common sense.

[LostinVA]

3. A slippery slope

People who feel a bit icky about same sex unions don't get this is the tip of the iceberg to these people, as is pulling Roe v. Wade.

[patdem]

4. They do not care WHY the divorce rate is higher than NY?

Only that it is? New York has no fault divorce does it not? Why the difference...??? Cause small dicked red necks with big guns beat their wives? (sorry..not to be mrsogynist)..but really!

[Infomaniac]

8. No, NYS is a grounds state

It can be very difficult to get a contested divorce in New York. Contested divorces can end in trials in New York and the person wanting the divorce have been known to lose. One divorce granted after trial was overturned on appeal four years later.

[Inland]

9. Is it really? I thought the property division took grounds into account,

but that no fault was possible.

[Infomaniac]

12. Nope. Contested or Uncontested Divorces

I know this from my own experience. My husband's divorce from his ex-wife took nearly four years; two of them spent in court.

[Barkley]

57. Economics (income) explains some of the differences in divorce rates

Religous beliefs no doubt play a major role as well; Southern Baptists have one of the highest divorce rates among all faiths.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. My theory is that it's because they're strongly against sex outside

marriage. Therefore, a lot of people who simply lust after each other and don't have enough in common to build a long-term relationship get married just so they can have sex with a clear conscience.

Then when the lust wears off, you're left with two people who can't stand each other.

I'm speaking as one who was a teenager in the 1960s, when these kinds of marriages were quite common.

[BiggJawn]

100. Sounds like my second marriage.

1988-1996.
It wasn't until YEARS after she finally got bored with me and kicked me to the curb for a new "Thrill" (big-tittied girl half her age) that I could acknowledge that the sex wasn't worth the abuse her kids and family were burying me under...

So after these bible-thumping busy-bodies get divorce outlawed, how long before the Sodomy and Fornication laws re-surface?

[tenshi816]

109. Bingo.

I imagine those same Southern Baptist voters will be unhappy at the prospect of a law that will keep them from splitting up right after the honeymoon if they want to. After all, they want to put restrictive laws in place for other people, not themselves.

[Beartracks]

75. Too easy

<wondering aloud> Maybe the problem isn't that it's too easy to get divorced... but too easy to get married? Guess you really can't restrict marriage, though, even though lots of people get married for the wrong reasons.
However, limiting "exit strategies" for bad marriages won't help prevent bad marriages.

[Freddie Stubbs]

78. Perhaps more people in NY just cohabitate rather than marry

so that when they split up it is not counted in the divorce rate.

[dkofos]

5. If they would allow gays to marry the divorce rate would go down

[99Pancakes]

6. Holy Mother of God

Next ammendment: chain the spouse to the chair if they try and leave their evil Texas RePIGlican mate.

[Inland]

7. Oh, THAT'S going to go over huge.

Can't wait for the first State legislator to be stuck in a marriage he/she can't get out of, or finds himself trying to decide whether they should commit adultery or violence to get a grounds for divorce.

[AgadorSparticus]

13. or homicide rates go through the roof! jesus, these people are all

out of their effing minds!! I cannot imagine how f*cked up their lives must be to be so hellbent on such stupidity. Really. This is just beyond comprehension. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[aquart]

14. It's a short sentence for murdering your wife most places.

And you get to keep your property.

[underpants]

22. Exactly- those Trophy wives aren't just going to wait around for them

:bounce:

[TankLV]

119. Not to mention Ronnie the raygun and newt, amongst others.

It'll be good when THEY are all kicked out of office FIRST!

And don't forget the small dicked gropenator!

Like that's gonna happen!

[kurth]

10. To make marriage thrive more in Texas, lower the minimum age for marriage

to what they have in Kansas!

[darkism]

103. ...which would also increase divorce.

Personally, I intend to get married only once (if at all). I'm going to do it right the FIRST time so I don't become a statistic. That will probably mean that I won't be married until I'm at least 30 (I'm 22 now), and that's fine by me. I don't understand how people my age can possibly get married on a whim and think it's going to last.

[TankLV]

120. Enjoy the "window shopping"!

"No thanks, I'm just looking!"

[asjr]

11. I really wish these people would leave the

country and find an island somewhere uninhabited and move to it. Then they can have all the mean-spirited laws they wish. Leave the rest of us alone. They can point their fingers at each other.

[femrap]

66. Let's start a secession movement for Texas....let them be their own

country...all the Christian Fascists could move there and then we could implement a trade embargo on them! They can have the Texas Crude (we'll go new energy technologies) and we'll keep all the food! LOL.

[last_texas_dem]

15. Yeah, that won't work

Most of the "Bible thumpers" in this state only engage in selective reading of their Book. I don't see them endorsing anything that might restrict their own personal rights. I mean, restricting the rights of gays is all fine and good if you're straight 'cause it doesn't effect you, plus you get to feel all Holy imposing "God's law" in your state. But that stuff in the Bible that might actually concern you and your own rights- hell no!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

20. You've hit the nail on the head

They will never, ever get behind something that would have a direct impact on their right to divorce at will.

It's all well and good when they get to tell someone else what to do, after all they're better than that person. But to do something like this would imply that they were wrong to have gotten that divorce in the past. Wait a minute now, that was personal between them and their mate, it's not anyone else's business, thank you! :sarcasm:

[belle]

49. Which is why we should be encouraging them in this move. Go you!

Stop those nasty divorces! Call the remarried harlots and adulterers! It's for the nation's own good, after all. Then, you can go after "fornication," and "petting," and those shocking displays of kissing and holding hands in public.

[Skittles]

27. YOU KNOW IT

I lived in a lot of places and I have to say, Texas takes the cake with their sheer hypocrisy

[lastliberalintexas]

35. But this wouldn't require a constitutional amendment approved by voters

Only a rewrite of the Family Code by the Legislature- and they have the votes to do it. Whether they have the political will to do it remains to be seen, but at this point I wouldn't put anything past them.

[AnneD]

58. Wonder what this will do to common law....

For all the quirks in the system, Texas common law has its roots in the days when Tejas was a northern state of Mexico. Six months of living together as husband and wife and you are considered as good as hitched and you split the property and pay child support. If some nonsense like this goes through, I will surely be finding another home. I am so tired of these nut jobs ruining a perfectly good state. I am ready to vote them off of this island. I don't think it will fly and if it does, they better build more jails 'cause we have a slew of 'fornicators' here.

A post script here, it takes a tough as nails true blue Texas woman to handle some of these Texas men. When they have had enough, it can get really ugly, what with all the ass kicking and such (kinda like 2 bulls in the same chute). It is a wise person that will let them go their seperate ways.

[cascadiance]

17. Divorce rates should go down now with marriage rates...

With the new laws against all marriage in Texas, who needs to actually "file" for divorce. At least there won't be records of any official divorces, since people can walk away now from something that's supposed to be illegal there now anyway.

Of course now with the marriage rate down now too with it being illegal now, if anyone does file for divorce, relatively speaking the divorce rates might become higher.

[LT TX]

18. Ughh....

"but most fervent in the state's rural areas: East Texas voters registered nearly 90 percent approval."

This is what is disappointing to me. I can't believe my neighbors can be sooo stoopid! In my county, Prop 2 passed 91% to 9%. Only 544 voted against it - my vote being one of them.

Disgusting.

[grumpy old fart]

19. Jesus said NO DIVORCES, plain as day. These folks need to walk the walk..

...if they wanna talk the talk. Jesus said ZERO about gays, but was quite clear on divorce:

"And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. Mark 10:11-12

Let's hear them demand a ban on divorce, and watch the State and Federal legislators take their trophy wives and run for the hills!

[underpants]

21. "Gee whiz, our divorce rate's higher than New York,"

"Gee whiz"??? and we were losing to these guys? Holy shit

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hamsterjill]

24. Texans

Oh, heavens, please don't think that all of us Texans are idiots. When I read stuff like this, it is no wonder the rest of the country thinks what they do of Texas.

Please, please, please understand that there are still a few of us who try to think rationally!!!! And who have NO DESIRE whatsoever to force anyone else to live according to our own, personal religious beliefs.

[Betty]

26. That's right, go after the straight people next..

I'm sure that will be a big hit. What a great idea, reduce the divorce rate by forcing people to stay married against their wills... but that just fits into their whole fascist agenda: total government control of people's personal lives. The government as an arm of the extreme right "Church".

[Ian David]

28. I say every gay rights organization should get behind anti-divorce bills

If you want to be a real snarky pain in the ass, refuse to publicly explain why.

Transcript from a fictional interview:

Host: I have here with me Dr. Benjamin Dover, president of The National Sodomites Association to talk about the Texas anti-divorce amendment. Dr. Dover, The NSA has endorsed this proposed amendment to outlaw no-fault divorce in Texas. Why?"

Dover: No comment.

Host: Tell me about your organization, The National Sodomites Association.

Dover: We're homosexuals who practice and enjoy sodomy for recreational purposes.

Host: Why is your organization pumping tens of thousands of dollars into backing an amendment to outlaw no-fault divorce?

Dover: Because we want to.

Host: The Human Rights Campaign, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, and even The North American Man-Boy Love Association, have all voiced support for this anti-divorce amendment and have in fact become some of its largest financial backers. Why is that?

Dover: Why don't you ask them?

Host: They're not man enough to come on "The Fictional Talk Show." And whenever someone asks them why they back this amendment, they refuse to answer.

Dover: Well, there you go.

Host: I think this is part of some kind of plot by homosexuals to destroy marriage.

Dover: Perhaps it is. All I will say is The National Sodomite Association fully supports the amendment to ban no-fault divorce.

Host: Well, why do The NSA and those other homosexual organizations all support an amendment to ban no-fault divorce?

Dover: I don't know.

Host: Don't make me turn your microphone off-

Dover: What, I didn't say anything--

Host: Shut-up. Just shut-up.

Dover: (sits quietly)

Host: Well?

Dover: Well, what?

Host: You're not man enough to answer me?

Dover: You told me to shut-up.

Host: Don't get fresh with me. I'm a warrior and I won't take any B.S. from you or from anybody. It's my show, and you will treat me with respect.

Dover: Yes, sir. I'm sorry if I upset you somehow.

Host: Now, how does outlawing no-fault divorce in Texas advance a homosexual agenda to destroy marriage?

Dover: I don't know. Do you think it does?

Host: I already warned you once! Don't make me warn you again!

Dover: Okay....

(silence)


Host: Well?

Dover: Well, what?

Host: That's it! Turn off his mic!

[lolly]

42. Yup!

That would be perfect.

Where do I contribute money to the "Save Marriage, Don't Let Texans get Divorced" campaign?

[kestrel91316]

46. "Save Marriage; Don't Let Texans Divorce" - I love that!!!!!

Let's all put it on our sig lines!!!!!!!

[belle]

50. Better yet: "Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it. No divorce."

And definitely no remarrying. Name names of repeat offenders (especially prominent Republicans, of course), call 'em adulterers. Say that the heavy campaigning against gay marriage has caused us to see the light and we are now celibate, and working as hard as we can, all of us, on straightening out our wrists and learning to apply makeup, respectively; and now we want to return the favor by helping others with *their* problem. Cast a critical eye on some peoples' overly sexual appearance as well--I mean, Ann Coulter really needs to stop dressing like a strumpet and saying such loud, aggressive things in public; or she'll *never* catch a man.

[DiverDave]

70. STOP THAT!

I just choked on a bite of soup.

Dang it, now I found some on my shirt...

Pretty funny tho.

[tenshi816]

110. Kind of off-topic here -

Your fictional interview made me laugh, partly because of the name you used - hard as it is to believe, I really once knew a man with the unfortunate name of Ben Dover (what were his parents thinking when they named him?). He was a real estate agent I bought a house from, and despite being about 40, he went by the name of "Bennie". I suspect it was because Bennie Dover didn't cause people to smirk and chuckle the way Ben Dover would have.

[Ian David]

29. Why didn't they do BOTH in the SAME amendment? n/t

[msongs]

30. why are christian marriages so unstable?

seems to me the US has something like a 50% divorce rate, and the overwhelming majority like 90% say they are christian, so from that it would be very clear that the majority of divorces are from christians, who's messiah says divorce is adultery in the eyes of god.

maybe this guy from pampa should work on his own crowd first before he goes out and shoves his beliefs on everyone else.

hmmm


Msongs
www.msongs.com/chinamart.htm

[kevinbgoode]

31. ROTFLMAO!

Well now...don't they think this should be written into a constitutional amendment to "protect" marriage? Gosh...sure seems to me that all the bigots who lined up to bash the gays in Texas are gonna have the chance to get bashed themselves by their new American Taliban owners.

And what can Texas residents say? It's their "moral" right to cheat, to violate biblical code, to dishonor their commitments before God? hehehehehehe....

Seems to me that covenant marriage is nonsense. They said their vows in front of God - and they declared that the sanctity of marriage must be protected. Goodbye divorce.

[CatholicEdHead]

32. Are they going by the Sharia model?

That is what this sounds like. I saw a Frontine special once about women's rights in Indonesia under Sharia. Women had no legal rights at all in marriage. That is where this is clearly going towards.

[iverglas]

36. sounds like the RC model to me

Chile, anyone?

Oops, I forgot to keep up. The bishops fought that good fight, but they lost.

http://retanet.unm.edu/LADB-articles/25855.html

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=825

Chilean Bishops regret legalization of divorce

Santiago, Mar. 19, 2004 (CNA) - The Executive Committee of the Chilean Bishops Conference has issued a statement rejecting the legalization of divorce and reaffirming the bishops’ determination “to strengthen the foundations of Chilean married couples” so that they might be “a true sanctuary of life, of trust and peace.”

http://hcs.harvard.edu/~amnesty/articles/chile2.html

The New York Times
September 29, 2003

Opponents, led by the Roman Catholic Church and its allies in the main right-wing party in this nation of 15 million people, are fighting to have the bill include compulsory mediation, waiting periods of up to five years and no possibility of divorce unless both partners want it. In the name of human rights and family values, they are also demanding that couples be allowed to choose marriage with a "no divorce" option.

Opinion polls indicate that 70 percent of Chileans favor legalizing divorce. But the church hierarchy has been conducting an intense campaign that includes lobbying members of Congress, especially those from the centrist Christian Democratic Party, and hinting about excommunication.

Hmm, "covenant marriages" ... "no divorce option" marriages. These guys sound like they'd have a lot to talk about over a glass of that communion wine. One almost suspects that they've been meeting secrety in a dark confessional or upper room for a long time ...

[Voltaire99]

48. Nice post, thanks for the links (nt)

[sarcasmo]

33. I nominated this because I new this was the Christian Talibans angle all

along. They wanted to take care of gay marriage first and then make it VERY tough for straight couples to get a Divorce.

[superconnected]

41. Yep and there's more to come.

As they take away rights, they keep taking them and it becomes easier and easier as people view the gov taking their rights away as normal.

"normal is what ever you are used to at the moment" - paraphrased from the handmaids tale.

[Inland]

38. I'm reminded of the WI prosecutor that said he would prosecute adultery.

someone imagined all the elected officials doing a spittake of their morning coffee as they read the headline.

[Der Blaue Engel]

39. I want to start a national movement to ban marriage

If I can't marry my girlfriend, no one should be able to get married. Marriage as a legal institution should be abolished. It should be the sole domain of the church, who is free to be nasty and discriminatory based on imagined religious persecution.

Once government has been removed from the pseudo-religious marriage business, we can enact civil unions for all persons interested in forming families with consenting adults of any gender or number: a legal contract providing protections and rights based on family law.

[arewenotdemo]

40. Grow your marriage! Move to Texas!

[lolly]

43. Covenant Marriage=Bonanza for Attorneys?

Since divorce will be more difficult to attain, and will require a trial proving adultery or abuse, this should be a good moneymaker for divorce attorneys--not to mention private eyes.

It will probably also encourage a lot of "bearing of false witness," since people who want a divorce will have to make up abuse or adultery to get out.

Of course, the ugly, nasty trials will make these divorces much harder on children than no-fault divorce. They will probably be more likely to be called in to testify against parents.

These people seem to thrive on bitterness, hatred, and contention, don't they? They never miss a chance to drum up more of it.

[uncertainty1999]

47. It's about (popcorn) time

I'd love to see these folks turn against certain 'family values' hypocrites who care so much about other people's relationships (like those of GAY people) but not their own (limbaugh, gingrich, etc etc). Go for it, I say!

[IndianaGreen]

51. These people won't quit until they impose their Taliban views

on everyone else.

This is why LGBT rights impact heteros as well. As MLK said, discrimination against one is discrimination against all.

[johnlal]

52. GEE WHIZ!

Talk about a quick fix to a complex problem. GOLLY!

[Crayson]

55. SOLUTION TO ALL

Do not marry!!!

Wether you're straight or gay or mormon or whatever!!

Do not marry!!



Oh, but then again the rates for unmarried mothers would soar!!






At least not when you haven't got a child underway... then maybe, but only then. or if you're both together for 10 years already.
(^_^)

[Miss Elizabeth]

59. Big Deal!

So what if the rates for unmarried mothers soars?? It's a false statistic anyway... I've read most "unmarried" mothers are actually living with and raising the child with the father anyway. I agree with the above post, let the fundies have marriage, let it be a church thing and they can make all the discriminatory rules they want. I'd love to see some sort of legal framework for civil unions dealing with inheritance and whatnot. Hell, I'd like to see it be refreshed every five years or so, like a driver's license or something. "Honey, we need to go down to the courthouse! Our marriage expires next week!" Families aren't made with contracts (although of course contracts help in sticky situations...). Two people living together, raising a kid together, that's a family. And F*CK the fundies who can't see that.

[rpannier]

56. Now they want government to solve this problem

Whatever happened to small government that pukes champion?

[sui generis]

60. The KKK backed the gay marriage amendment in Texas

and ironically, many minorities backed the KKK this time around. Nice to know that three out of four Texans got off their ass to vote to support the KKK. Who knew.

While they are so busy being in everyone else's lives I have some new amendments I'd like to propose:

1. Thou shalt only shake thy willie three times after peeing, no more, no less or have your marriages invalidated.

2. All people who wipe their ass north to south instead of south to north will no longer have their marriages recognized.

3. Anybody who has more than two potholders in their kitchen will be summarily executed, especially if one of them is crocheted.

These people are no different than the "Decency Police" in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Maybe that's where they need to go if they really want to be happy mucking around in other people's lives.

[Goldensilence]

61. someone please

get me out of this fucking nutcase state!

[sarcasmo]

Welcome to D/U Goldensilence.

[sarcasmo]

105. Welcome to D/U Goldensilence.

[Orsino]

62. It won't be nmandatory.

I can't imagine Republicans voting away their right to trade in their trophy wives as often as they want.

[Megahurtz]

63. Total Idiots! n/t

[upsidedownaussie]

64. ashamed to live in texas

Nice to know that 3 out of 4 people I meet on the street are dipshit bigots. They're so f'in proud of themselves too "we saved marriage". Yeah, tell that to me in four years when your ignorant ass gets divorced for beating on your wife because, you know, the bible says you can.

A gay friend of mine has been out of the country for the last couple of
weeks. It makes me sick that he has to come home to a state that has written discrimination against him into the constiution.

This place can rot for all I care, I'm getting the F* out.

[politicaholic]

69. There are much nicer places in the US than Texas...

and the jobs pay better in the north. Of course the northern states don't have that oppressive heat and shameful environmental standards that you're used to, but once you get over that you should settle in well.

[upsidedownaussie]

71. I'm sure I will adjust

Once my mercury and arsenic levels get back to normal levels.

[Paladin]

111. Don't Let The Door Hit Your Ass On Your Way Out

The battle to make Texas a better place will be won by those of us who stick around, not by those who go somewhere else and trash the state from afar.

I've had a belly-full of people like you in DU over the last few days, who see fit to shit-can an entire state because of one shameful election result. As if being a Texas Democrat isn't tough enough as it is, these days.....

Adios,

Paladin
Fifth-Generation Texan
Democrat
One of 536,000 People Who Voted AGAINST Proposition 2

[mondo joe]

65. Good. Let them expand their crusade into the mainstream.

[Kailassa]

67. I used to call myself a Christian and believe in marriage.

Thanks to the Christian Taliban and an overdose of smugly grinning born-agains trying to convert me and self-righteously saying condescending prayers for me I find it morally imperative to reject Christianity. That does not mean rejecting Jesus as a great teacher, but I feel that if there is a God, we are still free to argue with Him, and there is certainly no-one born on this Earth who's word we should believe unquestioningly.

As for marriage now, it is so tangled with religion that I would advise my children to never marry. Ideally, if a child is going to be brought into this world, the two parents should make a commitment to respect and love each other and stay together while the child is growing, but this commitment can be made privately or at a celebration with friends just as well as at any official ceremony.

We need a system where any couple who have lived together and had shared financial arrangements for 6 months are considered a single economic unit, and leave marriage out of it altogether.

[politicaholic]

74. Yeesh! Why don't they just make it harder to get married?

1) Make a marriage license more expensive ($2000+).

2) Require 12 hours of marriage counceling by a state sanctioned marriage councelor.

3) Make them get into a car that smells like stale fart and spoiled milk and have them drive around on a three day scavenger hunt across Texas listening to only music picked out by their parents.

I guarantee divorce in Texas would almost be eliminated.

[sofa king]

79. I think they just did make it harder. Maybe a lot harder, heheheh...

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/12988946.htm

The change, which will go before voters Nov. 8, would define marriage in Texas exclusively as the union of one man and one woman. However, it also states that “this state or any political subdivision of this state may not create or recognize any legal status identical or similar to marriage.”

I can think of a legal status identical to marriage: that would me marriage itself, you drooling zealots!

I'd like to see someone sue to invalidate every union in the damned state. In fact, I'll donate to that legal fund, if someone starts one up.

Was the President married in Texas?

[politicaholic]

82. My Goodness! You're an Uber Genius!

I wish I was a lawyer! And was motivated! And had a sandwich!

Guess which one will happen first.

[sofa king]

85. I think it will happen.

I know lawyers pretty well, and a lot of them have a good sense of humor and an internal radar set for billable research. There's money to be made here.

Think of how many Texans there are who are seeking divorce but would much rather have the marriage annulled instead. Or how many would find the humor in such a thing, and find it to be a good excuse for a second wedding. How many want revenge?

If there's a legal angle to be made from this amendment, paralegals are scouring Westlaw right now to find it and define it. And if they do, firms will be competing against one another to be the first to launch.

It would be fun just to watch Republican judges bending over backwards to fend off such cases, thereby forever tainting themselves as judicial activists. And the bible thumpers will find themselves in the uncomfortable position of defending the constitutionality of the amendment while simultaneously trying to parse its intent.

If a doofus like me can see the opportunity in this, I guarantee you someone in Texas is working this weekend to make it a reality.

[politicaholic]

95. I suppose you're right, but this also is an opportunity...

for the American Taliban and Captain Gee Whiz to spin it like a scared cat on a merry-go-round.

The christian right has somehow convinced the people of Texas that the country is full of armies of Atheists, abortionists, and homosexuals trying to bring the country under the control of Satan. Though fighting this stupid law is tantamount to fighting segregation laws, I think also spending money on changing people's perception of the law in Texas is extremely important.

This is Bush's law. He gave the green light for this by his comments about gay marriage. Why can't this be used to show that the Republican party is the party that follows the belief of one man, GW Bush, and that Texas is the first stop for the rest of the country when it comes to molding the US into Bush's ideal?

Bush obviously by his actions is a homophobic bigot, has a cool disdain for black people, absolutely hates Muslims below the ranks of royalty, and displays an almost laughably backhanded attitude toward people of Latin American decent. That mirrors the attitude of a powerful contingent of Texans I imagine.

Perhaps if they were shown that this is how they are perceived and that an era of regression is bad for the whole country, the people of Texas will see the light beyond those on the stage of their flashy mega-churchs.

Or it could be an experiment in futility. I swear, my optimism is beginning to feel like a coelacanth swimming around in the pit of my stomach.

[Initech]

76. Ah, the Ameritaliban never ceases to amuse me...

[ourbluenation]

83. I like to call it the "Talibush" - at least for now...eom

[Initech]

99. Talibush? Never heard that one...

[TexasLawyer]

80. Births to 14-year olds

Texas also leads the country in births to girls 14 and younger. Maybe Texas should try tackling THIS problem first.

Instead of legislating marriage, why not improve the education system in the state? Give young people self-respect and give them the inspiration and incentive to achieve. Improve the chances for Texans to get out of the colonias and the trailer parks. Why not clean up the rampant drug problems in Texas while we're at it?

As the educational, social and financial situations of young Texans improve, there is likely to be later marriage, more long-lasting unions, and fewer births to teens. Maybe even less divorce.

But, yes-- Texas would have to invest MONEY into such efforts.

It's ever-so-much easier to pass a law that will have absolutely no substantive effect on people's lives-- except to make divorces more costly.

[AnneD]

96. It's that damn risque cheerleading on Fri night...

they should have passed the ban on obscene cheerleading, then they wouldn't have had to worry about teen sex, teen pregnancy, teen marriage, and divorce.

[TexasLawyer]

104. Amen

Those cheerleaders are doing Satan's work on earth! They should be forced to dress like pilgrim ladies and to avoid demonic makeup and undergarments.

[AnneD]

113. I was in the committee chambers while they wasted 3 hours ..

discussing that idiotic bill. I was there to testify AGAINST a bill that would allow non medical teaching staff to administer insulin to school children. I flew in from Houston. We were so late that we missed our flight out and had to drive back. I got in at 4:30 am and had to go to work at 8:00 that morning. I thought the potential for grevious medication error was more important but it wasn't. OH, they passed the Diabetic bill....I cannot believe they think any Tom, Dick, or Harry can give insulin after a few hours of training-but that is Texas for you. I will be happy to be a witness for any parent that decides to sue. I have done everything I could think of to stop that bad bill from passing. Oh, they did vote down the obscene cheerleading law. So you can have obscene cheerleading, and the custodian can give insulin. I give up.........

[progressivebydesign]

81. In a state that probably heads the country in domestic abuse..

I'd say these assholes are dangerous. WHY do those people really CARE what happens in other people's private lives?

[Poet Lariat]

84. More on this from PDittie's post yesterday..."Here's why Prop 2

went down in flames"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=180x22924

There's more to the story on this than just the right wing evangelicals getting out the vote.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/topstory/3451194

Gay marriage ban crossed political lines, analysts say

By POLLY ROSS HUGHES and R.G. RATCLIFFE
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau

AUSTIN - "Blacks and Hispanics who traditionally vote Democratic strongly backed the state's gay marriage ban at the ballot box this week, sometimes outpolling Republicans, analysts said Wednesday"...

...Thanks PDittie for shedding light on our Tejas dilemma.

[The Doctor.]

86. "To make marriage thrive..."

Yeah, that'll work. :sarcasm:

[evolved Anarchopunk]

89. yes clearly the divorce race is due to how easy it is to obtain one.

clearly clearly clearly clearly clearly clearly clearly. Forcing people to jump more legal hurdles will solve the problem.... of loveless unions i mean... i mean...................

......
clearly
:sarcasm:

I'm going to say it once, since unbelievably it hasn't been said to enough conservative faces quite yet: Mind. Your Own. Business.

[VaYallaDawg]

92. They don't need no fancy di-vorce laws.

Just run 'em over with your Mercedes in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

[Gregorian]

93. He who is without sin, cast the first stone.

Can we have a little introspection?
I feel a cold stare and the point of a finger. Like blame.

And I'm not even married, you assholes!

[Selteri]

97. Has it occured to them just a little bit that just MAYBE

it isn't the divorce law, it's the way the people are down there if one considers that the red states have such a higher divorce rate not for having more liberal divorce laws (Which a no fault divorce is not anthing special over) That it's because of prevelant attitudes, the severe right wing attitude and strong level of intolerance that not just exans, but many of the more right wing families express.

There are Texans I have met that are liberal and very laid back as well, It is funny how many of the Texas Right Wing "Christians" Use it as an easy answer and excuse to be close minded and not listen to anyone on anything. The divorce rate is unsurprising because many of these people view women in a biblical way, they love their wife but they also seem to view women as being inferior to men, with women having more rights and learning their own self value marriages of that nature no longer has to be tolerated by a woman. It also has left people who don't want to stay together an easier out, that is true, but why do we need to pass a law for it?

[lies and propaganda]

98. their logic is amazing

dont let people who love eachother marry, or even screw.
But the ones who hate each other, maybe some abuse, probably some kids, well they have to stay together forever cause thats what Jesus would do.

what morans.

[Hekate]

106. So you can get out of a covenant marriage for abuse or adultery?

What's the point? Creepy Talibaptists.

Just guessing here, but it may be that the divorce rate is higher in the Bible Belt because of all that repression, and that more repression won't fix it.

Hekate

[montieg]

114. Whoa just a minute!

I live in west central Texas, and I think some folks are gettin their panties in a wad and getting some things out of perspective. While I'm particularly pissed that the Talibush (God, I love that--thanks, whoever came up with it) succeeded in making Texas the 19th state their latest excursion into legalized hate, I propose a few thoughts:

Yes, 73% of those who voted approved, but that is NOT 73% of Texans--only 16% turned out to vote. So, 16% of 21,000,000--3,360,000 voted. 73% = 2,452,800. So 2 1/2 million out of 21 million just succeeded in writing discrimination into our constitution. That sucks--out loud.
Now--my observations:

1. NO major, well-known group in Texas took this issue on as an issue to fight.
2. The relatively unknowns that spoke out were ineffective--they were not funded by anything more than Joe Average at $25 a pop.
3. The fundamentalists (remember--not much mental and NOTHING fun) and Repubs that succeeded in foisting this were WELL funded, well organized, and had an echo chamber ready to go.
4. There was NO media ad campaign educating Texans about the issue.
5. There is a lot of truth in several prior postings: many here who would naturally oppose the overt discrimination of an amendment are not brave enough to speak out. The old 'comfort zone'. Also sucks out loud.
6. Many 'yellow dogs' here are overtly biased against GLBT of any sort.

My suggestion: Read a little novel of the late 50's by Eugene Burdick, who wrote "The Ugly American". It's called "The Ninth Wave". It proposes an analysis, metaphorically, of totalitarianism with the concept of 'two gates'--fear gate and hate gate. The totalitarian state opens the fear gate and lets fear out into the populace till they can take no more, then they shut fear and open hate--give the populace an object of hate. Kinda scary when I think about it too much. After you finish the book--crack open your goddam checkbook and support the cause. VIVA LA HUELGA!!!
Sorry about the long post.