Rice: Force Necessary for Democracy

[buzzsaw_23]

Rice: Force necessary for democracy

Saturday 01 October 2005, 15:24 Makka Time, 12:24 GMT  

The US secretary of state sought to justify US military action

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has defended the use of military force to advance the cause of democracy and liberty as "the only guarantee of true stability and lasting security".

"In a world where evil is still very real, democratic principles must also be backed with power in all its forms: Political and economic, cultural and moral, and yes, sometimes military," Rice said on Friday, in a speech at Princeton University in the northeastern state of New Jersey.

Alluding to countries such as Germany and France that opposed the US-led invasion of Iraq, Rice said: "Any champion of democracy who promotes principles without power can make no real difference in the lives of oppressed people."

<snip>

"Some would argue that this broad approach to the problem is making the world less stable by rocking the boat and wrecking the status quo. But this presumes the existence of a stable status quo that does not threaten global security. This is not the case.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5E17D25F-FE67-4F...


Rice believes US troops must
stay in Iraq for future security

[DRoseDARs]

1. Did she follow up by saying, "Now look at these shoes..."? n/t

[tainowarrior]

39. you see...my shoes are from the Wookies...

but they live on Endor....DAT DON'T MAKE SENSE!

and therefore, that's why I declare U.S actions in Iraq legitimate.

[The Traveler]

2. Yes. But ...

you cannot make a person free. A person will, or will not, choose to be free. Thus a popular rising against a tyrant is to be applauded, for the rebels have chosen to risk all for their freedom.

Ironically, our invasion of Iraq may postpone Iraqi liberty by decades. Had we allowed time and events to weaken Hussein further, a popular rising may have deposed him. The Iraqi people would have chosen and paid for freedom. But as things are now, strange ways are imposed on them through foreign forces. The traditions of liberty are unlikely to take root thereby.

[pinniped]

3. Almost every FN day this twirp mouths off.

WTF is this, some kind of reeducation camp?

[grasswire]

4. it's a short step from that anti-democratic position...

...to imposed theocracy. It's for their own good. Yes.

[Cha]

5. Go stand in a corner,

you freak show.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

6. Uh huh, Rice. Yeah.

'cause cocking that Desert Eagle, leveling it at Iraq's head and saying "YOU WILL BE DEMOCRATIC OR DIE!!!" sure has worked out great.
Considering the Washington military think tank that concluded that over 80% of the "insurgents" in Iraq were, in fact, Iraqis...forcing democracy on them is working out amazingly.
One day, when she's a very, very old woman, I hope she gets a good look at her rotted, infested soul, and screams in sheer terror.

[Comadreja]

67. Not likely

If Babs is any indication, they get more evil with age.

[daleo]

7. Bringing democracy by force is like bringing Christianity by the sword.

In most cases, it just doesn't work. The case of WWII France etc are obvious exceptions, but this was really returning democracy to someone who had it taken from them by force. The same could be said for Germany, which had a pre-existing tradition of democracy. Japan is a little trickier - I think they accepted democracy by force and then embraced it, because their own elites lost legitimacy when they started and lost a war.

Rice is a fool if she really thinks otherwise. However, this is just the usual neo-con rationalization of plunder.

[MisterP]

8. Germany and Japan were the aggressors in WWII, as the U.S. is now

[daleo]

11. That is true

But some people claim that the post-war success of the governments installed by the western powers in Japan and Germany prove that democracy can be imposed by force, and this ought to be done all over. I am just saying the successes in these two countries were very special circumstances and not generalizable to other times and places (e.g. Iraq in 2005).

[bpilgrim]

41. but

they BOTH already were democracies BEFORE the war, folks often forget this fact, yes even Japan.

peace

[daleo]

69. I will have to read up more on pre-war Japan

I know the attack on Pearl Harbor is not as cut and dried as is made out most of the time - to some extent is was a response to western embargoes and so forth. I also know there were civilian countervailing forces opposing to the militarists within Japanese society before and during the war.

I guess it supports my position, that imposing democracy by force is not likely to be successful unless a very special set of circumstances is met. One of those circumstances is a pre-existing tradition (or at least a culturally widespread understanding) of democracy.

[jwirr]

60. Democracies were also accomplished between countries

that had historic and religious links so it was easier to communicate and adjust to the changes. With the Muslim people in the Middle East you have a different framework for achieving any goals. The Muslim religion is different and calls for many different ideals than were present in Europe in the 1940s. If Japan had not lost faith in their leader they may never have em brassed western style government either. Also resources play a role in change. Many of the Middle East countries have very little other than oil.

[bpilgrim]

61. Japan WAS a western styled parliamentary democracy before wwII

"If Japan had not lost faith in their leader they may never have em brassed western style government either."

BTW: what leader are we talking about here? if you mean the emperor, they never have lost faith in him or the monarchy, which remains to this very day, and they all, for the most part, followed his instructions at the end of wwII to stop fighting.

peace

[jwirr]

62. I was not aware of their form of gov. before WWII and I was taking

the lack of faith from the posting above mine. Now that I think of it they have always loved their ruling family. So maybe it was the predisposition toward democracy that was effective there.

[teryang]

9. Colonialism is a form of dictatorship not democracy

This is an imperial foreign policy, invading sovereign states, occupying them, and dictating their economic, social and political systems.

[Elidor]

10. She's unwittingly echoing Mao

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun."

Condi Rice, confirmed Maoist rebel.

[madrchsod]

14. that is how he said it!

brilliant minds think a like!!..lol!

[otohara]

16. You Beat Me To It

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.

[madrchsod]

12. i think mandela ,gandhi,king,and christ

would beg to differ with you ol`e dark mistress of the night
"....promote principles without power can make no real difference in the lives of oppressed people"? i think it was that rat bastard commie mao that said "political power comes from the barrel of a gun" or something to that effect...wow condi is channeling mao from the grave!

[tainowarrior]

40. all imperial minded tyrants think alike

left or right, both extremes want absolute power. What differentiates them is the ideology the espouse to justify the tyranny. If you're capitalist, you move to the right, if you're socialist, you move to the left. Same Tyranny, however.

[saltpoint]

13. I think a real strong case could be made that this woman is mentally ill.

I regard her as such, anyway.

She strikes me as dangerously unstable.

[madrchsod]

17. that is why she and her master get along so well

she whispers sweet nothings in his ear

[saltpoint]

22. I like your image there a lot.

Sweet nothings she whispers into his empty skull...

[TheCowsCameHome]

43. LOL - It's all he is capable of understanding

[grytpype]

15. Jesus H. Christ, they live in some weird fantasy world...

... where democracy still exists because we went to war against Iraq. Seriously, that's their whole pitch. And who the hell is buying it anymore?

[rodeodance]

27. well, obviiously many still not convienced!

[jobycom]

18. So she likes it rough, eh? Doesn't surprise me

Classic battered child, needs force and violence to truly enjoy anything, and so everything that seems good to her must be associated with violence. How else could she have an affair with the drunken, wife-battering man she calls her husband?

(Okay, I'm a little loose with the facts here, but I wouldn't be surprised.)

[Nostradammit]

29. How come ~

This:



Seems to lead to this? :

[jobycom]

31. I always assumed Laura did that, but now I don't know.

[Nostradammit]

33. I'm thinking they take turns.

I think Ms. Rice might have an awful lot of experience at hurting people without leaving visible marks. Half the fun for George is seeing just how far he can push that envelope. Just hunchin' - I've no personal experience in such matters.

[bluestateguy]

19. Typical neoconservative tripe

Where, I might ask, does it say in the US Constitution that the US is obligated to spread our system of government around the world? And through military force, at that?

I'll wait.

[xxqqqzme]

20. she has 'we must destroy this country

in order to save it' embroidered on a pillow. It is right next to the 'fooled me once, shame on you......fool me...ah...uh...a....ya can't fool me again!'

[yorkiemommie1]

21. ho ho hey hey

PNAC all the way! http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples...


'We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.'

[Gnostic]

53. Everytime I see that website...

...I get a sudden sickness in my stomach.

[Book Lover]

23. Then why is it illegal in the US to overthrow the government by force? (nm

[lumpy]

24. She is a warmonger

no doubt.

[rodeodance]

25. Karen h. said the same thing this week on her 'diplomacy' tour..

[rodeodance]

26. nominated

[flordehinojos]

28. the face of evil

and her evil statement:

"In a world where evil is still very real, democratic principles must also be backed with power in all its forms: Political and economic, cultural and moral, and yes, sometimes military,"

The above is one of the most arrogant statements the b---- has made. It is wrong. She is fighting evil with evil.

War is never the answer.
Repression is never the answer.
Fascism is never the answer.
Censorship and cultural control is never the answer.
Mandated morality is never the answer...

Militarism for the purpose of conquest is never the answer.

The bitch is wrong!

[LoneDriver]

30. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength

nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

32. Oh, I thought she was an expert on Russian history, Seems as though

Poland won it's freedom without the Poles firing a shot, but what do I know. She is the one from Stanford.

"who promotes principles without power can make no real difference in the lives of oppressed people." I guess Lech Walesa never happened, killing people with guns is the only thing that works.

Not to mention Gandhi, but what the hell do I know, she's the provost.

[OneBlueSky]

34. am I the only one who finds Rice a little . . . well . . . ditzy? . . .

I mean, she reminds me of some kind of sitcom character . . . the concert pianist who became Secretary of State . . . and struggles to play the role effectively when the policies she espouses are anathema to most of the civilized world . . . even the uncivilized, for that matter . . .

[tanyev]

45. She's the evil Mary Tyler Moore.

[Theduckno2]

35. Given the content of her remarks, her positiion is understandable.

"In a world where evil is still very real, democratic principles must be backed with power in all its forms: Political and economic, cultural and moral, and yes, sometimes military".

US situation:

Political power: held in check by China, Russia and "Old Europe"

Economic power: diminished by our debtor status; both governmental and personal.

Cultural power: look at Bush's response to Katrina, a fine example of the "culture of life". I do think we still wield cultural power though Karen Hughes is not equipped to use it.

Moral power: think Gitmo and Abu Graib. Hint to Condi: Good places to look for very real evil and I don't mean the prisoners.

Military power: the only strong card left to play, seeing as we spend nearly as much as everyone else combined.

But as the recently seen proverb goes (something like this) "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.".

This administration is obsessed with power not democracy and is determined to maintain and expand that power at just about any price. I really hate that lust for power.

[truthisfreedom]

36. faster pussycat! kill! kill!

condi has a bad habit of looking rabid. can you imagine sleeping with this woman? ugh. please, condi, the smell of oil is overwhelming.

[Orsino]

37. Heard a Dick Gregory quotation recently...

to the effect that if democracy were so great, we wouldn't have to force it on others at gunpoint; they'd be stealing it from us.

Rice is just another soldier in the war to confuse democracy with capitalism.

[ixion]

38. The new 'Murika: Democracy at gunpoint.

[TheCowsCameHome]

42. What else would you expect from the DC dominatrix?

Those boots of hers with the stiletto heels should tell us something.

[Gnostic]

59. She's no dominatrix

A typical dominatrix is a strong willed person of powerful personal opinions and tastes, and goes after what they want. This woman we refer to here is nothing of the sort. She's a bought off sell-out, corrupt to the core, and has been a stooge for the oil barons and her political masters since her Unocal days. She got her name put on an oil tanker because she knows how to do the bidding of her puppet masters unquestioningly and obediently. She's the penultimate bot, with no mind or conscious of her own, completely bought and paid for with oil money and now military industrial complex money. She walks the way they tell her to walk, she talks the way they tell her to talk. That's the way you climb the ladder of success with the Bush crime cabal. It's rather much like trying to climb the ranks in the Mafia....you do your Don's bidding, and you never ever question the Godfather, you kill when told to kill and thieve when told to thieve and lie when told to lie, and before you know it, your a "made man", or in her case of course a "made woman".

But a dominatrix? No. You actually need something resembling an independant mind for that.

[methinks2]

44. Do you think she's afraid of the monsters under the bed too?

"(Uwais said the use of force was dangerous, adding: "To every action there is a reaction, and every military offensive breeds resistance. This path is full of human tragedies.)"

This was a good quote. Obvious cause and effect.

Amazing how someone as smart as Condi is so clueless!
Obviously she can only regurgitate info as opposed to thinking for herself.

[tanyev]

46. Might makes right.

That kind of fell apart, too.

[Demeter]

47. INTELLIGENCE is Necessary for Democracy

Power as a function of intelligence is an obvious following effect.
Power as brutality has nothing to do with Democracy.

Guess which one Bush exercises?

[modrepub]

48. When you seek the greatest evil

you will only find yourself.

[splat@14]

49. So, if you don't think like I do, then war is an option? n/t

[nolabels]

50. The premise is so stupid and ignorant that's not even debatable

If force is necessary for anything what would be the sense in having civil societies?

[Charles19]

51. Such BS, how bout the so called democracies in Israel and Egypt

who both get more U.S. aid than any other nation.

When are people going to wake to the fact that their use of the term democracy really means submission to the corporate interests of the United States.

Disgusting our country has come to this state of affairs, even more disgusting is that people could see the writing on the wall and they re-elected Bush.

U.S. use of force should be limited solely to fighting regimes who oppress people. It is as simple as that.

[tabasco]

52. They want to make democracy just like dictatorship.

Witness what they are doing here in the USA.

I don't want the neocon brand of democracy. Apparently the Iraqis feel the same.

[Luna_Chick]

54. Can we bring DEMOCRACY back to the US?

Please? Huh? Can we? Can we?

[symbolman]

55. and I say

Symbolman: Hideously Ugly Sec of State neccessary to frighten world into submission.

Being able to eat an apple through a picket fence really gains respect in the Muslim world, and the circus.

What a freak.

[Gnostic]

56. Perhaps this is what Bennett meant...

....when he suggested the abortion of black babies in correlation to reduced crime?

Note to Bennett.....please don't take our dear Condi as an example of all black people. She's just a single evil, corrupt sell-out and in no way represents blacks in any way whatsoever.

[buzzsaw_23]

57. I think what Bennett meant was

just to get tough on crime. This somewhat satirical article points to the issues of criminals in suits and ties. Like for example, DeLay and Abramoff?

And what about mixed race babies Bill?
These people are the bottom of the barrel.

Bill Bennett, a prominent right-wing blowhard, has recently come under intense fire for remarks made on his radio show, in which he stated, "I do know that it's true that if you wanted to reduce crime, you could ... abort every black baby in this country." He quickly backed away from the proposition, saying "That would be an impossible, ridiculous, and morally reprehensible thing to do, but your crime rate would go down." It's unfortunate that Bennett chose to be so politically correct, because I think he may be onto something here. He's just wrong about the target. If we really wanna get tough on crime, it's the white babies who should start getting the coat hanger treatment.

Consider the fact that whites commit three times as many violent crimes as blacks every year, just in raw numbers. This is just for ordinary "street crimes" such as assault. The numbers become skewed out of this world when you consider "white-collar" crimes (typically, the collar isn't the only thing that's white).

For instance, job-related accidents and illnesses claimed the lives of 70,000 Americans in 1992, a significant portion of which can be chalked up to white employers neglecting to comply with occupational health and safety laws. According to studies, up to 64,000 die every year due to pollution and other environmental hazards produced by industry. Another 21,700 die due to consumer product deaths, costing the nation $200 billion a year. Another $200 billion is lost annually due to white-collar embezzlement. These two statistics alone add up to over 26 times the amount of all the robberies and petty thefts committed every year combined!

We should also not forget the ravages of the white-owned health care system and insurance industry. Around 18,000 adults are killed every year as a result of a lack of medical coverage. Over 25 thousand die as a result of unnecessary prescriptions and surgeries performed by mostly white doctors. All in all, corporate criminals take about ten times as many lives as street criminals. And I haven't even mentioned the white men who control the apparatus of state, which through war, sanctions, and other means kills hundreds of thousands, if not millions more. Over 100,000 civilians have died in Iraq alone, for example.

http://www.counterpunch.org/felux10012005.html

[Gnostic]

58. Apologies

I hope my previous post was not taken out of context here. Of course, I really was partly referring to the complete hypocrisy of Bennett's statements, and pointing this out by making another "prominent right wing blowhard" of that very genre an example of how, indeed, crime could have been reduced if only Condi's parents had opted for abortion, since a big member of the Bush crime cabal would not have existed today to further that crime family's and this corrupt and illigitimate regime's agendas.

But I apologize for bringing up the race card at all, as clearly it never has any place in an intelligent and enlightened discussion of any kind concerning crime statistics or even this administration's policies. Even in jest or sarcasm.

[0007]

63. Why does this mentality piss me off?

Why doesn't this women just come out and tell the truth? We have fourteen military installation just about complete and there is no way in hell we are going to abandoned these projects. It hasn't a goddamn thing to do with democracy, its about raping another country against their will.

[govegan]

64. Fascistic philosophizing

In honesty, she would have to say "terror in all its forms," as the neofascist terrorist states of amerika are so adept at spreading.

Political terror: secret, proprietary, non-verifiable "ballot" boxes; those that have the gold make the rules

Economic terror: suspension of Davis-Bacon; tax cuts for the wealthy; union busting

Cultural terror: infotainment; Terry Schiavo; Pat Robertson

Moral terror: anti-choice legislators and judiciary; union of church & state; RBGH.

Military terror: mercenaries patrolling amerikan streets; Iraqnam; Pet Goat timeouts.

Rice is a champion of neofascism, the state as an end unto itself, the common citizen as enemy of the state, the patronizing secret state.

No, you ignorant, lying, terrorist whore.

"... a stable status quo that does not threatan global security." She is out of her simple, one-track mind.

I think the globe is insecure. That is why it circles the sun instead of sitting at the center of the whole shebang. Be careful you don't skate off the edge, dearie.

[madmark]

65. Where in her career or academic study did she learn that

imposition of democracy by force by a third party was a viable strategy? I am not aware of any successful example of this. If you want to look at successful mass transformation from non-democracy to democracy look at the transition of the former Warsaw Pact. We used force to stop its external expansion, thats it. We didn't go into these countries instead we purposely stayed out of the way and let the organic democracy movements occur on their own, in their own way, at their own pace. Of course in the case of the middle east countries that are despotims and growth regions for al quada (most notably Saudi) we have not been stopping the external expansion (Saudi Wahhabi proselytizing) and we have been in effect propping up these regimes (military protection of Kuwait and Saudi). Ms. Rice, you want democracy in the area? Try starting with ending the external expansion of the Wahhabi dogma and the propping up of the Saudi and other despot regimes. And it does not take a 150,000 soldier occupation of Iraq to accomplish either.

[Spinoza]

70. "Where in her career or academic study did she learn that

imposition of democracy by force by a third party was a viable strategy?"

Ummmm.... Maybe she read something about post WWII West Germany and Japan? It's hard to argue against--at least in those 2 cases--that a form of democracy was imposed by force on nations that were not democracies. No, I don't think the situation in Iraq is comparable. Still, I don't think it helps our cause to make erroneous arguments about whether or not democracy has ever been successfully imposed by force. The WWII aftermath is simply too glaring an example.

[Comadreja]

66. Exxon Condi

[Comadreja]

68. Just another secondhand Imperialist failure

We took over the Imperialist effort from France when they gave it up as a lost cause. Now the war profiteers have done the same in Iraq, which England tried to Westernize for several decades, even allowing Churchill to sink to the level of saddam and drop poison gas on Iraqis.

[Chemical Bill]

71. If I said that the secret service would be knocking on my door. n/t

[Olney Blue]

72. Rice-a-baloney.

[The Kicker]

73. Shame, Cornfencia Rice, shame.

I thought, somewhere in that book you supposedly revere, your god told you to Choose Life. Clearly, you are choosing the opposite. No wonder you have stone-cold dead eyes.