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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:57 PM
Original message
On world stage, France's role is audience favorite
PARIS Karen Hughes should be French - it would make her job easier.

As the US undersecretary of State for public diplomacy returns home from her first foreign trip burnishing America's image in the world, she might feel a touch of envy at the glowing international reputation that France enjoys, highlighted in a recent study by the Project on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA).

In the survey of people in 23 countries across the globe, a majority or plurality in 20 described France as exerting a positive influence on world affairs. The US, by comparison, is seen as having a negative impact by majorities in 15 countries.

"France is seen as a countervoice to the US," says Steven Kull, director of PIPA. "It becomes a rallying point for all those who don't want to follow America's lead."

Certainly, Paris appeals in part precisely because it is not Washington. But it goes beyond that. From the streets of Shanghai to Berlin, Monitor interviews found that the French flair for the finer things in life has a special cachet.

more
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0930/p01s04-woeu.html
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. When I was in college, my Landlady told me once that she....
...liked the French because "They're the opposite of Rednecks"
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The French are the whores of Europe!
Thank GOD! ;)
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medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. perfectly said! n/t
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. I love rednecks...I am one.
"Rednecks" is an ethnic slur that refers to a specific ethnic group in the US. Bill Clinton is a redneck. Do you think the French are likable solely because they are the "opposite" of Bill?
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. To me "redneck" refers to more than just ethnicity and region
I guess we don't interpret the term the same way.

To me, having partly grown up in the south in Arkansas, Texas, and Georgia, it implies that a person has a certain prejudicial attitute of hatred towards everything that's not native to their region and their ways; an intentional closed-minded hatred and intolerance. To me it's someone having a provincial, ultraconservative and even bigoted attitude. Not all poor white people in the south are rednecks as I define that term. I wouldn't consider its use a compliment, as I define the term. I don't consider Bill Clinton a redneck; part Hillbilly maybe, but not redneck. Tom Delay is a redneck. Haley Barbour is a redneck. That's what the term has come to mean to me, at least, after having known quite a few obnoxious intolerant rednecks growing up in the south.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. My mother was from Arkansas, my father from Texas
I had "redneck" hurled at me a LOT when I was growing up. It essentially refers to the poor Scots-Irish and English people of the south. The other bad elements have been applied through the assumption that *all* rednecks are "like that".
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. I don't know what the true origin of the term might be
but I know what it generally refers to in common usage, having spent half of my youth in the south. It refers to a provincial, self-satisfied, closed-minded bigot. I'm sorry that others might have called you a "redneck" when you weren't one. That was closed-minded and bigoted of them.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. "redneck" comes from the redn skin Scots people tend to get from the sun
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 01:37 AM by melody
That's probably where the term comes from. The Federal government has been against multi-culturalism for years, trying to hammer everyone into one homogenous "type". So, we had the early attempts to shame people from their heritage, which is how we have the "bigoted" redneck of today.

The original application of the word stems from the original bigotry towards all the people.

Edited to add:

from WordWeb dictionary:

Redneck: A poor white person in the southern United States
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. I don't think anyone knows the origin of the term "redneck"
I've heard about the red neck of poor folk who worked the land. I also heard it had something to do with red bandanas of union workers. Also, I heard that it might have had to do with some religious garments brought over by Celtic peoples when they settled the south. Whatever the term might originally have meant, the way I heard it applied was something altogether different.

As far as "southern culture" is concerned, I have very mixed feelings on that subject. I don't want to start a flame war, but I recall some wonderful things about my exposure to southern culture and also some very terrible things. Unfortunately, the terrible side marked me far more deeply.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. culture and etc
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 01:36 AM by melody
There have been various assertions about the origin of "redneck", but most ethnologists seem to prefer the "red skin" idea. That was what I was always told anecdotally in my family. That's the experience of other anecdote-collectors also. The "red bandanna" assertion has been pretty much laid to rest because the term sprouted up in various places where the red bandanna association couldn't have been made.

There are good and bad things about ALL people...including the south. That doesn't mean we need to be ashamed of our people or its culture, just of the horrible mistakes it has sometimes made. We're no more or less moral than any other culture - we've just made our mistakes more recently. What's most important is that we learn from them.

Frankly, the poor and middle class white south ("rednecks") need to embrace the fact that we are essentially one people with the Africans and Cherokee, or the rich whites will *always* be dividing us from each other. That doesn't mean we can't own our own history in the meantime.

I add this, from WordWeb dictionary:

Redneck: A poor white person in the southern United States
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Personally I have a certain degree of shame from what I saw
that time cannot erase. You are right in that there are good and bad people everywhere, in all cultures. But I grew up in the south during the mid 1950s and 1960s. I saw too many things to NOT be proud of that I think some restraint would be in order. That's why I wouldn't be ready to make such derogatory terms as "redneck" a source of pride, simply because some want to take it back to its original meaning, where it was perhaps unfairly used as an insult. In fact, I think the south still has a lot to answer for and, while it contains many wonderful people and has many wonderful cultural values, I think modesty and a low profile would be better. And the mistakes that were "sometimes" made in the south were ones that lasted over 200 years.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. but they were mistakes that were also made in the north
We don't teach northern kids to be ashamed of their heritage - that is the difference. Far more northern companies (including many still around today) economically benefited from slavery.

I attended school at an all-white prep school in Orange County, California. It was one George Bush, Sr anointed as a "fine example of private education". It was also an unwritten law at the school that anyone who "sounded black or Latino" was told that the school was full.

My southern grandparents, on the other hand, worked with other Arkansas parents to integrate their children as playmates.

Just so, I've heard monstrous racism when traveling to other countries. We make a dangerous mistake if we think of racism as principally an American - and especially a southern American - problem.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. I'm very sorry you don't see this
The north never had Jim Crow. The north didn't hang on to a vile institution when nearly the rest of the civilized world had abandoned it. The north never had the degree of outright hatred and categoric dehumanization that occurred in the south over centuries and that continued well into the latter half of the 20th century. The north didn't have a public lynching of black men as a special event that occurred in almost every major southern town, photos of which were preserved and cherished as fond memories. I've seen them, not in books but in the hands of people who proudly showed them in their homes. I didn't attend an all prep school in Orange County. I attended school in Arkansas and Georgia. I saw the racism and bitter hatred across the board, inside and outside of the classroom.

The north and the entire United States should feel shame for the way we exterminated the Native American. We should feel shame for the way we elminated one million Phillipino civilians during the war of colonization of the Phillipines by the United States at the end of the 19th century. We have many things about which we could feel ashamed. Other countries can too. You are right about that.

That's why I wouldn't be too eager to reclaim titles such as "redneck". Instead, I would be modest about it and work to make people forget the past by the strength of my future good works.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. not going to fight this over again
The North had its own Jim Crow analogs. I recommend you look beyond the standard textbook version of the war - it is, as always, written by the winners.
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dwightspencer Donating Member (46 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. RE:"Personally I have a certain degree of shame from what I saw"
Sadly, the atrocities of the past are still fading ever so gradually. The present administration with all its antics has given rise to a new brazenness among the ignorant that epitomize all that is an embarrassment to those who live in the south. I find it abhorrent that the people I encounter on a daily basis mindlessly parrot the things that are programmed into them on the nightly news and pepper their programming with the cultural leanings that have me fearful of them gathering en masse to lynch me. I suppose I should let the cat out of the bag and say that this weighed heavily on my mind as I was reading your post and I recalled the gaggle I work with referring to the poor, black, displaced evacuees from Katrina and Rita in terms that were less than kind. Having been poor, black, and displaced at various times in my life, their words made me shiver. That is the reason I am actively seeking employment elsewhere and filing grievances with my current employer under Sarbanes-Oxley.

I would love getting a post with the French outfit, Alcatel.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. great and thoughtful post, dwight - and welcome to DU
:toast:
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. Welcome to DU! Glad you're here.
I'm a francophile myself. Sorry you had to put up with such "lovely" people at work. Staying focused on the job is hard enough by itself without having to step around assholes in the room. I'm sure they all gobbled up their freedom fries like good little bushbots, though.

Glad you're here. We need you. Let's get RID of these bastards!!!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. redneck, hick, hayseed, clodhopper
No, it is not an ethnic slur. No, Bill Clinton is not a redneck. And yes, you can live in a trailer park full of rednecks, hicks, and hayseeds; and thank god you aren't one.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. rednecks, hicks, hayseeds, hillbillies are ALL ethnic slurs
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 10:46 PM by melody
As repulsive as any other.

Yes, Bill Clinton IS a redneck. He gave a wonderful speech on that very topic at the opening of the Clinton Library. All white southerners...and many black southerners (Muhammad Ali is half-Irish just as many white rednecks are part African) are rednecks.

Southerners comprise a distinct ethnic group, as different from the "north" as Canada is from the US. Only by allowing young people to have have their own cultural identity, imo, will we ever get past religion having a stranglehold on the US population. But that's another rant. :)
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. oh for pity's sake
If Bill Clinton said what you just said, he slipped a cog. I have family in the south and not one of them thinks they're a distinct ethnic group. I have literally just heard it all. :eyes:
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. there are a number of books on the subject
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 11:34 PM by melody
If your family is "in the south", they must not be "from the south" in an ancestral sense.

There's a fairly good book on the topic called "The Cracker Cult" - his premise is flawed, but he makes some good points. I'd also add Jannise Ray's Ecology of a Cracker Childhood.

The south is a distinct and individual culture...it simply is. There are MANY cultures in this country, not just one.

My degree is in cultural anthropology, ergo this is one of the few things I know something about. lol
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Cracker is okay?
But, redneck is a slur? :crazy:

Certainly there is a southern sub-culture, several in fact. As well as sub-cultures in other parts of the country. But that isn't what you said. You said the use of the word redneck was an ethnic and regional slur. It isn't, it can refer to a hick, hayseed, clodhopper, from any region in this country and is probably just as applicable in other countries as well. It refers to an uneducated rural person, and yes, it is derogatory. Now you can make a case that people shouldn't use derogatory remarks towards their fellow man. But you can't make a case that redneck is an ethnic or regional slur, because it just isn't. And I don't care how many degrees you've got.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. Cracker is a slur also...I didn't use the word. They did.
I have no problem with southerners using the terms. My only problem is when the words equal bigotry, et al, because this has been used as a device by rich white culture to divide white southerners from their own culture. There was a conscious academic choice to do this.

Look, you can believe what you want to believe... what you need to believe. But the origin of the terms is what it is. If you use them, you are using ethnic slurs against a whole group of people. I don't care what words you use about me -- frankly, I'd rather know when someone hates me -- but they are what they are.

Their application beyond their origin is meaningless. The ethnic terms for other groups are also used beyond the ethnic group itself, but it still retains its original relevance.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. This is ridiculous
Digging up an obscure reference to a word in order to claim bigotry, what a stretch. Besides, that isn't what you originally said either, but I guess if you have some need to feel hated, nothing I can do about it. Enjoy your wallowing, maybe it's a cultural thing.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. Obscure reference? It's the preferred definition of a standard dictionary
You're using it in the wrong context. I'm sorry, but you're in error.

I don't dialog with people who react hyper-emotionally and irrationally to purely logical discussion, so its best to put you on ignore and I suggest you do the same to me.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. See #51
Who's emotional? You're the one caught up in the bizarre and irrational notion that the mere fact of being southern gives you a new and unique claim to cultural and ethnic bigotry. Please, when you return to something within the realm of logic, I'd be delighted to know. Until then, you're right, ignores all around.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #33
55. I also have a degree in anthropology.
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 10:03 AM by FarceOfNature
I'm currently doing my PhD in Arkansas, but I carpetbagged down from New York. The "South" is made up of many distinct, individual cultures....the desire to clump it monolithically is a historical construction, much the way "white" or "black" came into being. The meat of the argument when it comes to slurs is power structure. A slur has very little power when it is applied to the socially and/or economically dominant group in any given context. Thus "hayseed" "hick" "redneck" have no power as an ethnic/racial slur since "white" is the dominant cultural construct and very little power as a class-based slur, and even then it becomes debateable since many who are called "redneck" are not ashamed of their roots. Plus they themselves had their own historical whipping boys, i.e., African Americans and marginalized Native American groups.

Look at the history of how Irish Americans became "white". In the historical literature, they were once portrayed as "white ni*gers", which was even "worse" than being a "nig#er" in the eyes of some because they LOOKED white. Eventually some rose from the peasantry by becomgin powerful slave holders, and it was only THEN that they became "white". It is depicted as a romanticized rise to status in pop culture, especially in "Gone With the Wind".

Just my 2 cents...I get a little upset when people throw around the ethnic slur card when not appropriate because it robs power from the term in contexts where it IS appropriate.
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pschoeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. Sorry Redneck is NOT and ethnic slur
Redneck was originally used for poor corn farmers who literally had rednecks. The reason was that they mostly ate the corn they grew, and because they didn't pay attention, and follow the native american tradition which many farmers did, and treat their corn with lime which makes the corns form of niacin(vitamin b3) avialable. They developed a massive niacin definciency, which gave them a characteristic redneck, along with dementia, paranoia, mental retardation, and other mental aspects that got associated with the name redneck. I grew up in farm country and the term was used by farmers(poor or not) for other farmers(poor or not). The term was used for anyone who was mean, narrowminded, paranoid and a tad touched in the head, just like when the term was originally coined.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. That's a cross association - it's not the origin of the term
Edited on Sun Oct-02-05 01:35 AM by melody
And it does, in fact, refer to southern whites. Ask most people what a redneck is and they will link it to the south, see also Jeff Foxworthy. lol

I add this from WordWeb dictionary:

Redneck: A poor white person in the southern United States

Also: cracker

See? No "bigotry" mentioned - that's an inference made.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. The American Heritage Dictionary
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=redneck

Dicionary.com which uses the American Heritage Dictionary as its source:

Redneck:

1. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.
2. A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. thank you, that was my point
The preferred definition is a put-down for poor white southern people.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. I guess you have multiple points
depending on who you're talking to. In any event, the dictionary does not say redneck is an ethnic slur and that was your original claim. You're just wrong and anybody in the country would know you're wrong, including Jeff Foxworthy because the reason he is popular all over the country is because people from all over the country relate to the people described in his jokes. And that's because redneck is not limited to the south, the dictionary even says that.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. I thought your point was
that the term redneck didn't mean "A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude". Apparently according to the dictionary, it does.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. that's the secondary definition - the inference of culture
This second definition came about because of the cultural "known" that rednecks are bigoted, etc.

The primary definition is the very one I gave.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Advice to the U.S. House: You can take your "Freedom Fries"
and stuff 'em.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. Vive la France! nt
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
6. lol -- way to go!
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. when will we learn that one group of people isn't better than another?
The French are no "better" than the Americans. They've made as many blunders and selfish missteps as the US has. It's the nature of human beings.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. ANYBODY's Better than a Bushevik!
which nobody can deny.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Busheviks? Oh, absolutely. Just not all Americans
nuff said
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Actually they've made many more mistakes than the U.S.
One result is a mature outlook on International affairs that eludes the innocent Americans. One example: a long and winding series of unfortunate policy decisions in the Middle East (that would make us look a success)that has them gun shy.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Like that mature bombing of the Rainbow Warrior or the sophisticated
aid to Saddam, which greatly exceeded any aid that the US gave him?

Puh-leaze.
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Trust me on this. I have French family, am indeed a francophone and you
must surely be aware of their tremendous crimes over a much longer period of time than America has even been in existence. Study the history of Algeria for a good start...and their even more inept episode in Vietnam (yes I know we quickly bested them).

Did they make a good move concerning Iraq? Obviously better than us! Is French bashing justified? No. But learn a little about French history from the time of Charlemagne until the end of the Colonial period in the 60s. It sure as hell ain't any prettier than ours.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I have French blood myself.
And the issue is NOT ancient historical blunders committed by the French.

The issue is IRAQ! And ONLY Iraq.

There was no government organized France bashing in the U.S. ("old Europe", "Freedom Fries", etc., etc., ad nauseum) until France notified Bushco that it would veto any war resolution presented to the United Nations because (a) Bushco's grotesque claims that Saddam possessed massive amounts of WMD's weren't supported by a single shred of any credible evidence; (b) the Niger "yellow cake" uranium story propagated by Bushco had already been proven to be fraudulent and announced as such to the U.N. Assembly; (c) the U.N. inspectors had not yet completed their inspections in Iraq, had discovered absolutely NO WMDs in Iraq, and any war resolution would therefore by definition be premature.

For standing up for principles of international law France got systematically smeared by Bushco and their media whores.

THAT's why the rest of the world holds the French in esteem these days - for the same reason that they disapprove of Bushco's misadventure in Iraq.

Going beyond that issue is facetious at best. Sure, no country, including France has a pristine history. But that is NOT the issue here.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. The issue I brought up is not history, but the people today
And I stand by my remarks.

All people make the same volume of mistakes in different ways. We're all human. There is no "better" nationality.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well, I agree there's no "better" nationality. I deplore ethnocentrism.
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 07:11 PM by Seabiscuit
But I think the point of the article is that France has won the respect of the international community to the same degree the U.S. has lost their respect due to the events in the United Nations in February and March, 2003, and Buschco's subsequent illegal invasion of Iraq. For the reasons I stated.

Beyond that, all else is a distraction.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. there's an equally important issue at stake, though
These are the very times when bigoted stereotypes take root. The French have been as indoctrinated against us as we have been toward them. IMO, we need to be conscious of that fact.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I totally disagree with that point.
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 08:03 PM by Seabiscuit
The French have *not* been "indoctrinated" against us by their government at this time in our history or at any other time. The French people have merely witnessed the grotesque France-bashing in America by the Bushco politicos and their dumbed-down followers with dismay.

There was a time during the late-fifties, early-sixties that there was some anti-American sentiment among Paris shopkeepers merely because of the predominance of "ugly-American" tourists. But it was the fault of the tourists' rudeness. And no one "indoctrinated" those shopkeepers.

OTOH, there has been nothing but bigoted, smearing stereotypes coming from the Bushco Neocons in America since France promised to veto any U.S. resolution asking for the U.N.'s blessings for an Iraq invasion back in March, 2003. Only the Neocons and their supporters fell into such stereotyping (their supporters were gladly "indoctrinated"). I hold out hope that the vast majority of Americans have been enlightened enough not to indulge in such France-bashing stereotyping by the Neocons.

Hence the center-piece of the article are the poll numbers favoring France and disfavoring the U.S. As pointed out in the article: "The very, very strong position that France took on the side of global public opinion explains the figures in the poll...." re: France opposing Bush's invasion of Iraq.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. totally disagree with you as well
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 08:27 PM by melody
The French have been indoctrinated against us (edited to add, there is an attempt on some levels at indoctrination...it's not constant and not always successful, on a similar level to our idiotic "Freedom Fries" nonsense here). There's a pretty good treatise by Jean-Francois Revel on "anti-Americanism" which describes the examples of anti-Americanism in the French media and beyond. It's not pretty and it's very real.

They have French George Bushes over there who'd like nothing more than to crush the US so the EU could do to everyone what BushCo is doing to us. We mustn't be idealistic about others while hating our own monsters. These people exist in ALL cultures.
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. You're referring to a handful of extremists, not a government.
The French government has *not* been involved in "indoctrinating" millions of French people to hate America in the way that Bushco HAS been indoctrinating millions of Americans to hate the French.

You simply can't equate what Bush has done with what a tiny group of extremists in France has done. Those extremists don't represent anyone in France. OTOH, the Bushco anti-French propaganda has at times seemed to represent a majority of Americans, who not long ago were also indoctrinated into thinking Saddam was behind 9-11.

I've lived in France for over five years and have visited several other times and the French are *nothing* like they're depicted in that book, or as you have depicted them.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. where to begin...
First of all, overstatement does not conduce an argument. "You simply can't" isn't evidence to the contrary. I've given you a source for some of this information. I'd be happy to cite more. You're starry-eyed if you think there aren't forces every bit as evil as Bush involved in the formation of the EU. In many ways, Bush is an ally of these people since he's only further alienated Europeans from Americans, helping them become the pseudo-angelic "non-American".

Few Americans beyond the lunatic fringe considered the freedom fries nonsense anything but absurd - in fact, it's become a joke in the culture. The only real tinge of anti-French American sentiment comes from the WWII generation but even that has lessened overtime.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, the world is without a distinct criminal class IRT culture, with the possible exception of Congress and Assemblée Nationale. :)
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Seabiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Frankly, I think your views of the French are completely looney-tunes.
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 09:29 PM by Seabiscuit
And you've convinced yourself of them, while entirely evading the point raised in the polls in the article, which is what I've been focusing on.

There's really no point in discussing it further.

If your points were being made by some freeper, I'd simply note: "consider the source". But I have no idea where you're coming from or where you got such weird notions.

I just know from personal experience that your comments are totally off the wall.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. again, we have a battle of slogan over substance
I've said NOTHING negative about the French people -- which you would understand had you dispassionately read my postings. The reality is the French are human - just as Americans are. We all have equal negative and positive traits expressed in various different ways. How *on earth* is that a putdown to the French to anyone but the most starry-eyed Francophile who is also anti-American?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
53. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #53
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YapiYapo Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
65. Not very fair
While i agree some here may have an too high opinion of france, especially Chirac, whose popularity in france is matching Bush here.Comparing 1200+ years of history versus 300+ for the US will make the US look good in a biased way.

Sure there have been some awfull things in Algeria but keep in mind at that time the US where messing with Chilie and installing Pinochet.
If you take the history post WW2, united state have obviously commited more crime than the french.

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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. Making Hughes French would take one Extreme Makeover.
You couldn't even make a polyester purse out of that sow's ear.
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Call Home Despot, I mean Home Depot
:7
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Too bad the mepublicans don't listen to our our oldest and strongest
ally. We have never been at war with France. If it weren't for them there wouldn't be a USA. Well I'm off to get a Freedom Manicure, then I'm going to freedom kiss my husband, then make some freedom toast and brew some Freedom Roast coffee.....
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agincourt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. The world knows who Karen Hughes is,
A RW political operative who got the worst president in a long time in power in the USA. She does the same work as Rove with just more subtlety. The world knows whom she is, the american sheeple don't.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
36. French food is really good.
I am sure that doesn't hurt their international reputation. And when people around the world study math, French names pop up all the time. Same with philosophy, literature, chemistry, etc.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
60. I am guessing...
...that this poll did not include Rwanda.
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
61. Freeper heads exploded when the French rejected the EU constitution.
They couldn't quite reconcile this with their cherished belief that the French are the driving force behind (corporate) globalization.

:D



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demobrit Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
62. Let us all learn to speak French , It is the new cool thing to do
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
64. The French were the first to reject that asshole Bush's false plans to
invade Iraq. This gets a gold star from me.
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