Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Jesuit Official Rips Expected Ban on Gays

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:06 PM
Original message
Jesuit Official Rips Expected Ban on Gays
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 07:10 PM by deadparrot
NEW YORK - A top Jesuit official is raising objections about an upcoming Vatican document that's expected to reinforce Roman Catholic teaching that gays are not welcome in the priesthood, while some U.S. leaders of men's religious orders are considering a trip to Rome to express their opposition.

The Rev. Gerald Chojnacki, head of the New York Province of the Society of Jesus, said in a letter to his priests that he was asking bishops to tell Vatican officials who are drafting the policy "of the great harm this will cause many good priests and the Catholic faithful."

Chojnacki wrote in the letter, dated Monday, that he had participated in the funerals of several gay Jesuit clergy over the last few years.

"I find it insulting to demean their memory and their years of service by even hinting that they were unfit for priesthood because of their sexual orientation," he wrote.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050930/ap_on_re_us/gay_pri...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Many will scream and complain about this
but the hammer will foolishly and sadly still fall. The reprecussions will be felt for years. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. An the molestation will continue unchecked for years
It might get buried more but it will still be there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes it will
scapegoating always leave the original problem sitting there rotting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
28. from time immemorial little girls 've also been abused by straight priests
......why is no one making an issue out of that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I've wondered the same thing. Is that considered more "normal"?
I saw some stats somewhere that the number of heterosexual molestations was higher. And then there is the number of adult women, some with children fathered by priests, and adult men in relationships with priests.

It isn't just homosexual pedophiles that were/are the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. child molestation, even if heterosexual, IS PEDOPHILIA!
and yet ... no one is making a big deal out of it!
oh! and yes... many adult women who have, have had, and may continue to have romances, or adult relationships with priets..!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. The old policy was that sexual orientation was not an issue
it only became an issue if a gay or lesbian were to become sexually active. There has never been a Biblical injunction against what people felt, only against certain acts.

I suspect that the pedophiles in the Vatican want to blame the gay priests for what the sexual abusers have done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Exactly, this has been nothing but scapegoating from the start
it is disugting, horrible, sad, and unrepresentative of many of the laity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sanity Claws Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Catholics believe you can sin in thought, word, or deed
So "impure" thoughts are sinful.
But as we also know, priests who are heterosexual in orientation, also sin in thought but are not banned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
despairing optimist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. A pope long ago banned the Jesuits, and this one may do it again
He's the George W. Bush of the RC Church, and I don't think he even drinks.

Don't US Catholics contribute the most toward supporting the Vatican? Most Catholics may be in South America and Africa, but the cash flows from here, doesn't it, and the Vatican's financial condition isn't exactly secure even with that support.

Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, the USA is towards the top of finanical support
which historically was up there with Europe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The Jesuits are pretty liberal
They are educators you know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
despairing optimist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Yes, I know. And the current pope isn't liberal, so he may silence them
That has been done before. Thomas Merton was silenced--not that he was a Jesuit; he was a monk--for his outspokenness about the Vietnam war and the military-industrial complex. There are many fine, decent voices among the Jesuits and other orders who may be silenced or worse for the sake of orthodoxy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. The current pope is a former NAZI. Don't ever forget that.
Once a NAZI, ALWAYS a NAZI.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Which is why we should be referring to him as
"Former Nazi John Ratzinger, head of the Vatican State".

I will not respect him with the honorific of his unasked for, bestowed title.

NEVER.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. Yes, the rest of the church could learn a lot from the Jesuits. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. They are also the sharpest knives in the drawer
When they are right, they are right, and when they are wrong, they admit it. And they aren't afraid of dissent and discussion.

I clicked on this link because a quick glance at the title made me think for a second that I read: Jesus officially rips expected ban on gays.

He should so do!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Free2BMe Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Equating homosexuality with abuse-child or other that has occurred
within the church is an injustice..I thought "liberals" were for justice.. I don't "understand" homosexuality but I do believe there are many good priests of this predisposition just as there are many heterosexual priests who all take their vows seriously..this is not the same as the perversion which has occurred by the small percentage of priest, which should be dealt with both by the church and law. It is criminaly...Homosexuality is not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Rape is a crime of aggression, not passion.
You certainly don't have to be gay to rape someone of the same sex.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Free2BMe Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. If anyone rapes..hetero or homo, it's a crime..justice should be done..
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 08:32 PM by Free2BMe
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Absolutely. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Pedophilia has NOTHING to do with one's sexuality. Period.
Not just my "belief" - so say all the EXPERTS on the subject.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. It Is Becoming
Plainer than the nose on my face that we are witnessing a resurgence of a hand in hand merging between politics and religion.

There is no mention of murder in an unjust war. The Jesuits have been sidelined since the previous pope entered the scene.

Standing back from afar, it would seem by the nature of the beast that has been created, that there was some alliance between the church and the CIA with the last pope to defeat Communism.

With the continuing march between the right wing and the roman catholics in Rome it seems that the Jesuits are coming to a decision on splitting with the Roman Catholic sect of the Catholic religion.

What Rome has done, is remove from US politics all possibilities of US Roman Catholics from standing for their country in politics against their religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. This even ups the ante even more
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Perhaps
But I don't think so.

If one comes back to the Jesuits, then one has to consider their obligations.

They were, and maybe still are, the leading theologians in the Church. They are obliged to follow the leader. However, their teachings are, that one is ultimately answerable to their own conscience, with all the intelligence and energy that has been bestowed upon one or that they are capable of learning in their life. It is incumbent upon one to search for facts and "truth" in their teachings.

Thus to have the Jesuits part from their vow would mean that they have not been able to reconcile the differences that are occurring.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. if some Jesuits depart, Ratzi can fill the voids with Oafus Dei
hail Franco!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. My uncle is a priest and
he is a founding member of this group:

http://www.quixote.org/pfe/pfe_charter.html

The Priests for Equality Charter was published in 1975. Though some of the language reflects the social and religious landscape of that time, the issues addressed herein, and the struggle against sexism in all its forms, in ongoing. With this 25th Anniversary Edition of the Charter, PFE renews its commitment to join arms in the struggle against sexism and to work diligently for the full participation of women and men in church and in society.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Please know that not all Catholic priests, or all Catholics for that matter, are of the RW fundie mentality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Free2BMe Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Good Grief, I should say we are not RW fundies..Most of my
Catholic friends are like me ...left wing..actually also left handed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Many many people believe
that most Catholics are RW. You and I know that is just not at all true. My uncle is even more liberal than I am.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
21. Good for him.
I applaud him.

FUCK that bigot Ratzinger!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. Good.
Pedophilia has NOTHING to do with homosexuality.

Over 99.99% of all reported pedophilia is from HETEROSEXUAL persons.

(Source: Nevada Department of Child Welfare Services)

I was simply amazed when I heard that, and questioned the number, repeatedly - but it's true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. And most occurs within families
When I did CYS the simple fact was that most children who are victims of sexual abuse the prep is more often than not a male relative the victim is living with (who also tend to be victims of such abuse, such sexual abuse just runs in some families). Sexual Abuse is more an issue of POWER than prue sex (In that it is related to Rape, another crime of POWER through a sexual act). Most members of the Clergy do not have access to such young children without the parent being around and thus it is rare (through not unheard of) for the sexual abuse by the Clergy to be against children under age 6. Priests have more "access" to children 6-12 but these, while not unheard of, are rare (Through not as rare as clergy abuse of newborns to six years old). The huge majority of cases of clergy abuse is against pre-teens and young teenagers (Roughly 12-16 years of age).

Notice the age of the victims, the same age most are discovering "sex" themselves. Thus the big problem for the Catholic Church is when is the alleged Sexual abuse an act of Pedophilia or an act of consensual sex? The issue is then when is a person old enough to give consent to sex? Under the English Common Law the age of consent was 12. Thus under the common law almost all of the sexual abuse by the Clergy was NOT pedophilia but Consensual Homosexuality (and why the Pope has expressed concerned as to homosexuals in the Church more than pedophiles).

Now no one liked age 12 being the age of Consent, thus every state passed a Statute setting a higher age of Consent than did the Common law. Thus such crimes are known as STATUTORY Rape, for unlike rape which was a common law crime, Statutory Rape is a crime created by Statute. Even the Catholic Church has accepted the fact that age 12 is to young to give consent for sex, thus under Canon Law the age of consent is 15 (The age of Consent varies from state to state, from 14 through 15, 16, 17 and even 18 years of Age).

In the mid-1990s Pennsylvania had to address this issue when a public school teacher who had had sex with one of his 12 year old students claimed the defense that they were married under the Common law (i.e. a Common Law Marriage). The Court ruled that since there was NO STATUTE overruling the common law as to the age one could consent to a common law marriage, such a Common Law Marriage could be entered into at the Common Law Age of consent (i.e. if the person is 12 years old or older). Thus the marriage was valid and under the Common law a spouse can always consent to have sex with the other spouse (subsequently the Pennsylvania Legislature passed a law saying one must be over age 18 to consent to a common law marriage, and than last year outlawed Common Law Marriages). I go into this to show how the age of consent is a factor in the sexual abuse by the Clergy.

Now the problem with the Catholic Church is not so much Pedophiles but when does a teenager becomes old enough to give consent for sex? A secondary but related problem is do you permit Homosexuals priests near young teenage males? Remember the accusation of Sexual Abuse is rarely one of actual rape but abuse of one's authority over another to get consent for sex.

My point of writing this is to show people that the issue is NOT just pedophilia but, in regards to the Clergy, tied in with the issue of consent and Homosexuality. Should the church permit priest know to have sexual desire for certain type of teenager (and by this I include priests who like young teenage girls in addition to homosexuals) be around such teenagers? This is the REAL issue, not pedophilia or Homosexuality, but should people who have sexual desires for 12-16 years olds be left around such teenagers?

Please note I am addressing the LEGAL issue of Consensual Sex NOT the Religious issue of the Priests breaking their vow of Chasity. The later is strictly within the power of the Church Hierarchy to discipline, the former, i.e. the actual sexual abuse, is all that is actionable within the court system.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. I am glad to hear of more PUBLICLY criticizing this NAZI pope!
It's long overdue!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
30. Banning Gay Priests: Its a good idea
Now let's see how well the Catholic Church functions without them.

The arguement that keeping gay priests will somehow ameliorate the Church's homophobia has not proven to be the case. If anything the Church's hatred of homosexuals is at all time high.

Its analogous to being a Gay Republican; why be part of an organization that hates you?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Oct 22nd 2014, 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC