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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:42 PM
Original message
Chavez: Venezuela Moves Reserves to Europe
September 30, 2005 01:50 PM ET
Chavez: Venezuela Moves Reserves to Europe

All Associated Press NewsCARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - Venezuela has moved its central bank foreign reserves out of U.S. banks, liquidated its investments in U.S. Treasury securities and placed the funds in Europe, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Friday.

"We've had to move the international reserves from U.S. banks because of the threats," from the U.S., Chavez said during televised remarks from a South American summit in Brazil.

"The reserves we had (invested) in U.S. Treasury bonds, we've sold them and we moved them to Europe and other countries," he said.

Chavez, a sharp critic of what he calls "imperialist" U.S.-style capitalism, has often criticized foreign banks for the power they wield in international financial markets at the expense of poorer countries.
(snip/...)

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerartic...
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. GOOD for Chavez....We have a "President of Vacation"! anyway...
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tainowarrior Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. VIVA CHAVEZ!
That's what I'm talking about. Start hurting the U.S. Dollar! Make them feel the pain!

This is what got Saddam invaded. Will buying Euros cause his downfall?

Viva la Revolucion Venezolana!
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow. He's not taking any chances. n/t
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readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Is that Brownie's bitch?....
no comments.
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Oh. You mean the horse? No. he's my filly's sire.
I'm sure that my horse would hate Brownie. Horses know jerks when they meet them. ;)
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ha, ha, ha!
I bet those bankers are pulling out their hair. Reminds me of: When the Clampents on The Beverly Hillbillies wanted to take their $80 million of of the bank and put it in their old home town' bank and the Beverly Hills banker would just go nuts and have to go to their mansion and baby sit the critters and try to get them to change their mind.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. damn - he's puttin' his money where
his mouth is. What we have here is a hat AND the cows.
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. hat and the cows
and the horses! whichthe dope is afraid of.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. We don't need nobody except to finance our insane twin deficits
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montanacowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wonder if China and Japan will follow suit?
hold on for that ride
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. IF they did that
You might as be saying "game over" it would bring on such a global depression, it would make the '30's seem like boom times!
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. Then it is over... we're out of luck and cash....
Let's hope they do not call in the notes any time soon.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Tee hee, Chavez gives Bush another big fat wet middle finger!
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 02:55 PM by DinahMoeHum
:evilgrin:
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. Does that mean European banks won't lend any $ to the U$A?
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 02:58 PM by Amonester
I doubt they'll stop. (If they do.)
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Doubtful
I'd imagine Chavez' main purpose in doing this is to move the money in case Bush decides to have VZ's assets frozen at some point. Smart move, unless they manage to bully Europe.
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Unfortunately Europe is easily bullied by the US.
I still think this is good news, though - for the time being.


-----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!








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KDLarsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
85. Don't think it's the bullying tactics..
.. it's more like the fact that US is a major importer of European goods etc. So if the US economy crashed, that would kill the export to the US & that would kill the European Economy.

The only analogy I can come up with at this hour, is that the US is using dollar bills to light their cigar while the EU keeps printing dollar bills so they can keep selling cigars.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
12. Interesting I check the currency rates and didn't see a spike
in the euro but the yen did gain against the dollar.

He doesn't want to end up like the Iranian problem in the 1980's
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Loonie hits 13-year high
The Canadian dollar rose to its highest level in more than 13 years as investors reshuffled their holdings on the final day of the third quarter and as traders favoured the prospects for Canadian economic growth.

The loonie strengthened by almost a full cent, to 86.26 cents (U.S.) from 85.38 cents Thursday, and is now trading at its highest level since January, 1992.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.2005...
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. HAHA! Sweet!!
Hugo has more middle fingers for Bush than I can count! :silly:
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. Good.
Frankly, though, I'm surprised he didn't do it sooner.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. Yes, a safety move, given the threats.
But it also may be the harbinger of international bailing out of the U.S. economy. What if China started such a move? (I won't say completed such a move, because I don't know where else it would invest all that it has sunk in the U.S. -- nor what it would do once it brought down the U.S. economy and government before it got all of its money out of U.S. treasuries.)
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's truly sad we have a government that has provoked this
response. I'd prefer to see him bank here, but I don't blame him a bit for taking this action. It's a smart move given the assholes we have in power`
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. The AP's bias comes loud and clear in the article
Such gems as:

Chavez, a sharp critic of what he calls "imperialist" U.S.-style capitalism


Capitalism is always imperialistic. It is through the subjugation of other countries and the exploitation of their resources that capitalism can survive. Capitalism would collapse in the absence of monopolies. The AP writer puts the quotes around imperialistic to elicit a response from the gullible American reader that capitalism is always "good."

Under his presidency, Venezuela's mostly pro-Chavez Congress changed central bank laws earlier this year so the government could tap reserves for spending, despite criticism that it would lead to devaluation of the local currency and higher inflation.


I would like to hear the AP refer to our Congress as Bush's Congress. How easily do the corporate MSM dismiss a democratically elected legislative body when its members express the will of the people to establish a fair and just society in their country.

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mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
82. This is there because the Bush Jr. Administration wanted to label
Mr. Chavez as a Communist and a Dictator in the making.

LMSM doing the dirty work of Mr. Bush Jr.'s handlers.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
107. Venezuela avoids inflation by subsidizing food and oil for poor people.
Apparently they're managing employment, GNP, inflation, and public spending in a way that will probably offer a valuable lesson to the rest of the world that rich companies and interests that feed of wealth polarization might not want the rest of the world to learn.
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Vogon_Glory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. Clever Fellow...
I've got to hand it to Hugo Chavez, he's not playing the fool. He's gone out of his way to make friends elsewhere in Latin America, which Fidel didn't do back in the 1960's, and he's moving his foreign reserves out of the reach of the Bush junta, which Allende of Chile wouldn't or couldn't do back in the early 1970's.

So far it looks like Chavez is playing a much smarter game in Latin America and the Caribbean than Gee Dubya and his Cuban-American henchman are.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
108. There weren't many progressive governments back in the '60s for
Fidel to befriend.

Fidel befriended other Latin American governments by supporting their revolutions before they came into power, such as in Nicaragua (which irritated the US).

Chavez is lucky to the extent that almost all of Latin America is moving to the left and because the largest economies -- Argentina and Brazil -- have leaders who are on the same page as Chavez.

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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. OUCH!!! Very smart move...
because now they can't freeze any of Venezueala's assets because of some bullsh*t 'terra' charge that the USSA dreams up. Nothing hurts Tio Sam more than the withdrawl of $$$$$ from US coffers.

:rofl:

Meanwhile headline on Yahoo is U.S. Insists No Plans to Invade Venezuela

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050930/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/v...

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
88. Just breaking: Franco is STILL DEAD!
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. Is this Europe account his own personal account (perhaps Swiss)?
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 05:20 PM by dhinojosa
If so, it would be no surprise, all communist leaders take from their people for the people. Anyone who voices disagreement will be taken and shot on a state owned farm out in the middle of nowhere.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:rofl:

Too assanine a statement to even comment on. Thanks for laugh.

:rofl:
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Yes! YES! Laugh, Laugh to your hearts delight!
Just remember, my shoulder will always be here when it is time to cry.
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Balbus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
41. before you refer to something being "assinine"...
you might want to spell it correctly - it's asinine (one s). Don't want to end up looking like an ass yourself :P
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #41
86. wow --great comeback !! correcting his spelling!-----now spell check this:
Democratically Elected President
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #86
101. with two coup attempts previously.
Lets tell the whole story.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. Let's tell the whole TRUE story, instead, why not? Might as well.
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 10:38 AM by Judi Lynn
See my post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

DU'ers who don't have time now to check for themselves can look up "El Caracazo" on the "internets" later when convenient to start getting background on the massacre of Venezuelan poor ordered by the corrupt, later IMPEACHED FOR CORRUPTION President Carlos Andres Prez, against whom Hugo Chavez led one coup attempt, the other being organized by other Venezuelans, for which Chavez spent time in prison and was pardoned by Venezuelan President Rafael Caldero.

Brief timeline of contemporary events in Venezuela:
1973 - Venezuela benefits from oil boom and its currency peaks against the US dollar; oil and steel industries nationalised.

1983-84 - Fall in world oil prices generates unrest and cuts in welfare spending; Dr Jaime Lusinchi (AD) elected president and signs pact involving government, trade unions and business.

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez was jailed for two years before being pardoned.

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.


1998 - Hugo Chavez elected president.
(snip/...)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. Another good summary:
looked at through the lens of oil

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1474

A National, Popular, and Revolutionary Oil Policy for Venezuela
Thursday, Jun 09, 2005

By: Minister Rafael Ramirez

1 Introduction

The close relationship between oil and politics in Venezuela is a well known fact, as attested from the very beginnings of the Twentieth Century by events such as the setting up of the fierce dictatorship of Juan Vicente Gmez in order to place the exploitation of oil in the hands of transational enterprises, the toppling of Medina Angarita in the wake of the promulgation of the Hydrocarbons Law of 1943, the dictatorship of Marcos Prez Jimnez, the period of representative democracy, the nationalization of 1975, the collapse of the Fourth Republic and the coming of the Fifth. Even though almost one hundred years have transpired since the beginning of the commercial exploitation of oil in our country, we have to say that in the present time the relationship between politics and oil has become even more closely knit than it used to be. The coup detat of April 11, 2002 and the sabotage of the oil industry which took place during December of the same year both provide ample proof of this.

What is more, I dare say that the very collapse of the Fourth Republic, and the profound crisis into which it plunged the country, are both intimately related to oil. Indeed, during the decade of the 1990s, the policy of Apertura amounted to a veritable assault on Venezuelan oil, an assault coordinated by some international institutions in oil consuming countries together with the big multinationals of yesteryear, all of whom, with the complicity of the selfstyled oil meritocracy, and the ruling oligarchy and its political representatives, conspired against the Venezuelan state, prompting the crumbling of the latter and bringing about an economic and social crisis for our country.

As we shall see, this was not a case of a succession of isolated or fortuitous incidents. To the contrary, it amounted to a strategy that was deployed from the very onset of the nationalization of oil, and which was oriented in first instance towards the capture and control of PDVSA by transational interests, then towards the minimization of the value of our resource and its subtraction from the control on the part of the State and its institutions, and culminating in the open and direct confrontation against the Nation and against the Venezuelan State.

In this thoroughly planned and designed strategy, Petrleos de Venezuela was assigned the role of a Trojan horse, a role which the transnationalised meritocracy was more than willing to assume. Thus, the essence of the Apertura can be summed up in a few words: the globalisation of the natural resource, oil. This would no longer be a national resource but would, instead, be made freely available to the powerful consuming countries, in their guise as undisputed masters of the globe. With the Apertura, foreign capital aimed at expropriating from the Venezuelan people the sovereign management and use of their main resource: oil.

This explains the collapse of oil fiscal income during the decade of the 1990s, a collapse that we will be dealing with in greater detail in due course. This collapse gave the Fourth Republic the coup de grace. The Republic might have been gravely wounded and in an advanced stage of decay, but Petrleos de Venezuela did not come to its assistance. Quite the contrary: not only did it apply pressure in order to eliminate the last vestige of state control over oil but it was also prepared to hand over our energy resources to foreign capital and to progressively withdraw from many of its own spheres of activity through their privatization, all this in the context of the maelstrom stemming from the privatizing and globalising diet which the Venezuelan people were forcibly fed, but which they ultimately succeeded in rejecting, first with the Caracazo, then with the military rebellions of 1992 and finally through to the overwhelming electoral victory of President Hugo Chvez during December 1998.

{snip}
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #106
118. More on the nasty piece of filth Perez against whom Chavez led the coup
From:
Buzz words and Venezuela

By Saul Landau

When I gave food to the poor, they called me a saint; but when I asked why people are poor, they called me a communist.

--Brazilian Bishop Don Helder Camara
(snip)
..... On February 27, 1989, Perez increased the price of gasoline and the cost of public transportation. Following an IMF model to garner foreign investment, his austerity policies hit the poorest people hardest......
(snip)

When the police went on strike, the government lost control. Perez called for a state of emergency. The soldiers fired into crowds. By March 4, the government claimed that 257 lay dead. Some non-governmental sources estimated the death toll at over 2,000. Thousands were wounded.

Perez, who called himself a socialist, first imposed draconian measures on the poor and then had them shot when they objected. The Caracazo as the event became known, not only destroyed Venezuelas aura of stability but put an end to the political system that had replaced the ousted military dictator Perez Jimenez in 1958.
(snip)

.....The Caracazo destroyed the shady Perez, the prestige of the two major parties, and it opened the door to a more radical politics, outside the party structure.

The Caracazo also had a profound impact on sectors of the Armed Forces. Some younger officers who opposed the neo-liberal policies had joined the popular uprising when Perez ordered troops to open fire. Officers like Hugo Chavez saw the Caracazo as a learning experience. Four years later, in 1992, he led a military coup against another corrupt civilian government. It failed, but Chavez gained sympathy from fellow officers and the government felt pressured to release him in 1994 after he served a short prison sentence. Indeed, in the 2002 coup many officers remained loyal to Chavez and his populist policies and, to the surprise of the coup makers, restored him to power within two days.
(snip/...)
http://www.progresoweekly.com/friendly.php?pdr=Jul0107_...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. What brand of rightwing Kool-Aid have you been drinking?
You sound like the terrorist Luis Posada Carriles who told the immigration judge that he would be tortured if he were extradited to Venezuela to face charges for the 1976 bombing of a civilian jetliner.

Pathetic!
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. None, just some capitalist starbucks.....
Triple Grande Soy Latte to be exact. I like paying them because they make a good product, and I love being a part of the capitalist system.

Sipping now.
Ahhhhhh!

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Then you should be very happy with Bush because he...
is giving us full flavored capitalism!
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. No he isn't, he is the anti-thesis of capitalism..
It's called cronyism. Capitalism in it's pure competitive form is wonderful.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #39
45.  "Capitalism in it's pure competitive form is" unrestrained by law and
Environmental concerns which is the only way it would be "pure competitive"

We have had the "pure competitive form" in the 1900's remember?

Do you remember that "wonderful" times for Capitalism?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Somalia is a perfect example of that.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:32 PM
Original message
Yes we need war lords for our pure capitalism
It would be wonderful
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
49. Yep, a perfect society.
:sarcasm:
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. I never mentioned anything about law.....
Capitalism like all competition needs an unbiased referee and a set of rules in which to play.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Then it is not Pure, it cannot be Pure for that reason.
So the referee is


JUDGE ROBERTS ???????????
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Judge Roberts???
Your digression from topic sounds like you have nothing substantial to add to this argument.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. He himself discribed himself as an umpire in the hearings...
So I am using your words to look at your arguments



Your arguments use totalities and absolutes in it's "pure form".
The abasement and inconsistency of your key dialectic arguments have digressed into
nonsense with your irrational logic..
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. It's all to what think I meant by pure
Open-competition, open-contracts, legal-trading and operation benefit the people substantially. We are not playing by "pure" capitalism right now.
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FVZA_Colonel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #61
97. If such a system is possible, than it would be an ideal one
However, we certainly don't have that now (I'm trying to say you said this, just a sort of stating of the obvious), and I'm just not sure if, given the people who head up our government and the major corporations, it would ever be possible to make a system like that happen.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #97
100. I agree with you.
We don't have that now, we have cronyism. Thanks for your input. ;)
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Trolls usually do that...
"The abasement and inconsistency of your key dialectic arguments have digressed into nonsense with your irrational logic.."

He's posting trollsh*t...

:-)



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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. You brought up John Roberts which has no bearing to this argument at all
You pick and choose the words and then side me with things like John Roberts. You know I never mentioned anything about John Roberts being involved with capitalism.

Furthermore, Roberts statement about being an umpire was about the role that justices play in the supreme court. It had nothing to do with capitalism, socialism, communism, or the economy.

Your Roberts move is a digression and it is non-sensical.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Can we have a debate ruling on this? Thanks from our umpire or referee?
What is

non-sensical.
So senseless as to be laughable

??? :banghead: :sarcasm: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Hot damn this thread branch went down a dark corner.
:rofl:
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #75
91. And to think you did it all by yourself!
Glad you noticed your contribution!
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #91
99. Wow, are you still in grade school?
:eyes:
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #99
120. How uncleaver! You obviously didn't make it past kindergarten!
But thanks for "caring"!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #120
131. C'mon, the guy can afford to drink Starbucks
I get my coffee at CITGO.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. You mean like India has had all these years.
That wonderful, wonderful trickle-down system, some of the effects of which Mother Theresa sought to mitigate. Though she came to realise that since the Reagan-Thatcher years, we could use her nuns here. You're as thick as two short planks.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #51
110. Adam Smith was more critical than Marx of greed of capitalists
says Amartya Sen in Development as Freedom, btw.

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
64. How would anyone know?
Capitalism in its pure form, as taught in textbooks, has never existed, and never will.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
72. What???
:wtf:
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rustydad Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
77. OOOoo yes
As long as all the inputs and outputs are recognized and delt with. They rarely are. Case in point. Ever live downwind of a mercury spewing coal burning power plant? If so did you get paid for the negative health impacts to you and your family? If so are you happy with the check? Is the shortened life spans of your family for sale? Well? Bob
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #77
111. Or, so long as their is perfect information in a democracy
so that everyone knows about the mercury and the government does about it what the people demand.

We don't have that either.
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rustydad Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #111
130. True
For a democracy to function with fairness there must be rules that call for accurate information and a means of redress to those being taken advantage of. We have gone from a system having some of the above to one having almost none. Rules and the media owned and crafted by the big corporations. Bob
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #39
102. Ah there is the catch!
Capitalism in it "pure competitive form" does not exist in the US of A.

All American businesses thrive on and look for a monopoly or non-competitive market or product. When such markets or products cannot be found they turn to oligopolies (gee I hope that's the word, I didn't go to university).
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YapiYapo Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #39
146. Wait for the natural Gas shortgage this winter
You will see the true competitive form of capitalism,i'm sure you will like it.
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Oh too funny
Yes, all the money in Swiss bank account :H.Chavez

c'mon now
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. You do know how Swiss bank accounts work don't you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_banking

Swiss banks are world-renowned for their secretive nature and protection of clients. Swiss banks generally have higher confidentiality than other banks, based on Swiss bank law, which regulates what information the banks can give out. In general, there is no way to trace the source of money placed on deposit with a Swiss bank; they do not routinely confirm whether a named person holds an account or not.
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. Thank god Republicans never use them!
Boy, then we'd be really screwed!

:sarcasm:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
65. The more heinous their own record
of criminality, the more vociferously the neocon pole of the Republicans libel their enemies.

Yasser Araft was routinely accused in our press, pre-war, (pro Hitler and Mussolini, and still, pro Franco, post-war), of stashing away Palestinian state funds obtained from some kind of oil transaction, for his own use. It was a hideous lie, but hey, dog bites man, what's new. In fact, he led a very austere life.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. The IMF's audit concluded that that was true.
Arafat did take public funds and stow them privately.
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #68
80. I agree with you there. He maintained his wife in a Parisian Mansion
And she led a very sumptous lifestyle with lots of spending money while his people much, like we now do, had to fend for themselves. Arafat was a despot.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #40
151. Lol! n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
92. And you have proof of this, of course?!
Otherwise, we can conclude you're talking out of your ass, as usual!
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
112. but what does this non-sequitur have to do with the OP?
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
142. "secretive nature" he makes a major political announcement
to the entire world.
and in your mind this is being "secretive"

haha you freeps are silly
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. If you were right about Chavez, there would be no need for name calling.
Your lack of confidence is showing.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I'm exposing idiocy...
What the hell am I supposed to call you, educated? Can't tell the difference between Communism and Socialism? Please at least try to read a book or something, its frankly embarrassing that someone on this board is this ignorant.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. The difference between Communism and Socialism...
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 06:45 PM by dhinojosa
Socialists, believe that capitalism and exploitation of workers should come to an end through out long term social reform. Many European countries today employ this philosophy. Communists, like Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, believed that socialism can only be accomplished through overthrow and revolution. Communism and its revolution is also often centered around a cult of personality.

So please, continue with the name calling, because that seems to be all you got.

On edit: took out ",like communists" from the 1st sentence
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. You said nothing......give me your "pure form of capitalism wonderful "
reasoning.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Wrong thread branch....
The conversation branch is the one above this one, where I have made a post
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. IF WE DON'T FEED THE TROLL HE'LL LEAVE
He's not worth the bandwidth. All he's trying to do is derail the thread.

Peace!!
SW
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. It's a bit of Windandsea deja vu, isn't it?
Why do they always come out of the woodwork when Chavez is mentioned?
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. You're right!
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 07:18 PM by Say_What
I forgot all about him... or maybe the guy from TX who boasted about paying plenty for his shoes that he got in Venezuela. His idea of a 'credible' source was El Universal ;-)

On edit: This guy's just trying to derail the thread.

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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. MORE NAME CALLING!!!
You just can't keep up so you resort to name calling.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #66
135. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. ive already given you more than your worth..
and im sure your happy with that since it scores you some freeper-points over in freepyland.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. Hmm, that's too bad, you were on a roll.
I'd like to thank you for making my point look good.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
76. Then, using your definition, Chavez is a socialist
He came to power through legitimate means, and has stayed as president through legitimate means (and was the victim of the short-lived coup). He is carrying out social reform, not overthrow and revolution.

So why did you indulge in name calling, ie "communist"? That looks very hypocritical.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. Lets not forget his 2 attempted coups
to overthrow the government. He is no angel.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. He attempted one coup, others the second against a monster,
Carlos Andres Perez, who raised the price of the public transportation severely, bringing deep hardship to the poor who had no other means of travel, not owning cars themselves.

When they protested in the streets, President Carlos Andres Perez ordered his troops to fire into them, in a massacre which was named "El Caracazo." A quick reference:
A history of economic inequality and violence fuel this polarization, which gained momentum in 1989, when right-wing President Carlos Andres Perez came into power. Perez implemented harmful International Monetary Fund (IMF) structural adjustments, and accepted a massive loan from the IMF which critics claim plunged the country deeper into an economic recession. In 1992 Perez was forced from office on corruption charges.

The Caracazo, an uprising in Caracas against the Perez government in February of 1989, was met with massive military repression which left over 3,000 dead. This event marked a turning point in the country's socio-political landscape. Hugo Chavez, then a young colonel in the army, refused to participate in the Caracazco crack down and in 1992 led an attempted coup d'etat against the Perez government. When the coup failed, Chavez took the blame for it and was imprisoned until 1994.
(snip/...)
http://www.upsidedownworld.org/ven-public-opinion.htm

Hugo Chavez was later pardoned by President Rafael Caldero. The brutal asshole, Carlos Andres Perez,



who is a friend of George H. W. Bush, was impeached for massive corruption, as in the embezzlement of over $17,000,000, and was sentenced to house arrest. He was obviously a man who was not fit to be President.

So if Hugo Chavez had not led the coup, it definitely would have been led by someone else. Men are not encouraged to have their country's soldiers mow down its citizens in the streets, after all.

Anyone who would think otherwise is an unparalleled idiot.
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #83
90. very good post!!--INFORMATIVE- and well stated---AGREE 100%--n/t
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #83
136. What an informative post, thank you. n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #50
95. Actually, umm, NO!
You have proved you have NO CLUE of what you are foolishly attempting to spew.

You should have kept your mouth shut long ago - at least then we could assume you had SOME intelligence.

But thanks for letting us all know you know absolutely NOTHING of what you are talking about!
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. Weak!
You have no retort? Just this lame condemnation?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #98
122. Actually, you're ignorant,, too.
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 12:23 PM by TankLV
Wrong.

Socialism is the belief that there are some things that the people, thru it's government, should provide to ALL the people, in common, for the common benefit of ALL. You know, things like HEALTH CARE, which the fascists continually oppose here in in "amerikkka" and Medicade, Medicare, Social Security, Education, roads, airports, postal service - socialist things like this that we have that the fascists are trying to eliminate! Socialism has NOTHING to do with wages or the ownership or determination of them, nor of private assets.

It is separate from and independent of capitalism.

Communism is the belief that the assets of a society should all be shared EQUALLY by society, including the means of production, and all the rewards, like salaries, should also be shared EQUALLY, by everyone. In exchange for that, NO ONE is worried about necessities, such as health care, housing, food, and education - these are all provided by EVERYBODY to EVERYBODY thru the government.

"Socialists, like Communists, believed that socialism can only be accomplished through overthrow and revolution."

Neither has anything to do about or advocating REVOLUTION, let alone "constant revolution" like you originally stated.

You seem to conveniently forget that EVERY form of government has advocated REVOLUTION, including OUR OWN!

"Communism and its revolution is also often centered around a cult of personality."

You mean just like our criminal Raygun and now Bunkerboy? That kind of cult?

Yeah - I'm being condescending with you, because you have no idea what you are spewing.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. You landed a powerful point by directing the poster's attention to the
utterly inconceivably stupid slavish worship of that stupid, phoney, pompous, twisted old man, Ronald Reagan, and this diseased, deranged, conscience-less, idiot son of empty, pointless privilege, George W. Bush.

I have NEVER seen ANY Americans grovel, and drool and carry on about ANY American President as the half-snapped, wild-eyed, hate-filled, bitter, blood-thirsty, self-absorbed, backward right-wingers do about those two mentally impaired MEpublican pResidents: both of them bad jokes, all too happy to sacrifice the lives of multitudes to advance a sense of their own authority, while lying out their @$$&$ in the process. True losers who have shown that sheer incompetent mediocrity can truly rise to the "top," God help us all.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. Tank, go easy on him. He's just a kid.


At least he talks with the idealism of youth and the half informed thoughts of the immature.

As he grows and his brain matures he'll have more ability to reason and likely won't spout these inanities.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #128
133. Haha
Yeah, I wish.
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #122
132. Medicade? Is that a drink?
Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Education, roads, and airports, and the postal service are all great American institutions. We pay taxes for these things through a capitalist system, and they function us well. The postal service runs like a company itself. Medicaid and Medicare are social programs that are paid by tax dollars. Social Security, most of the time, is your own money. If you get injured or disabled, other peoples tax dollars help you. Roads are contracted out to companies by our goverment using tax dollars. This is capitalism. We pay for our own military, our own roads, our own social system, police, firemen, etc. This is the reason why I don't mind paying taxes. The thing I do mind is Bush mismanaging these taxes for dumbshit stuff like Iraq.

Reagan wasn't a cult of personality. I don't know who bunkerboy is, so whoever that is probably isn't a cult of personality. Further more our revolution was already 200 years old when Reagan came into office. Our system, and our revolution wasn't revolved around a cult of personality. It was revolved around Washington, Paine, Jefferson, Adams, Hancock, Frankin, Hamilton, et. al.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. Give it a rest, please
It's the central bank funds. He's announcing this to the world. That's not what you do when you steal something. He's not a communist. He doesn't have people taken out and shot.

Why do you have an obsession with Venezuela? Why do you come up with ridiculous posts about Chavez?
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dhinojosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Actually my obsession is....
trying to talk some sense into democrats who obsess over Hugo Chavez, it is potentially dangerous to our political leverage here at home.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. First off, we support democracy, in all its forms...
Look, if the Venezualan people want a Socialist to be elected, who are we to tell them wrong, who are we to overthrow the people's will? I assume you have the same problems with Spain and its majority Socialist Party as well? Secondly, we don't obsess, we defend him against FUD that you spew, you cannot be taken seriously, first off by NOT even bothering to read the article, and second, by LYING about him. I have no clue what you have against Chavez, but it is pretty transparent.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
69. It's one thing to mock his nibs, Solon,
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 07:14 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
but deigning to take his arguments seriously, even to the point of rebutting them in detail, is just beyond the pale, and does us no credit, I'm afraid. Two fools/several fools for the price of one.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #69
144. Never let a lie go unchallenged. Otherwise it is the "truth" by default.
now, there is something to be said for overkill... and if you're talking about that, i'd sit at your table over tea and agree.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
67. You bet it is. Republican.
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 07:11 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
All the more so, since he's a devout Roman Catholic.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #43
113. "Sense"? -- muriel v. just outlined why you're making NO sense!
?
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
47. a "communist leader"
who was elected by a greater majority than our own "democratic leader"


:eyes:
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. This is what kills me...
Chavez is NOT a COMMUNIST!!!! That's a pure unfettered lie right there. Where the HELL does anyone get off calling him that? Is it because he is actually trying to help poor people? Or is it the fact that he is seizing land and resources from FORIEGN influences, much of them either cheating Venezuela or neglectful of the land and resources themselves? Hell, the ONLY industry nationalized in his country is the the Oil Industry, as it should be, its a vital national resource. Did he take over the opposition's media, no he did not, instead he is helping local community groups fund their own media, to, get this, foster competition. Holy shit, that sounds like, PBS!!!! Run for the Hills!!!! Or how about his cracking down on police corruption and brutality in his own country, hell he's doing more than the Cincinatti or LA Mayors have ever done in that regard. Even better is his giving the land that was previously owned by a particular lord in Great Britian and GIVING it to poor farmers. Holy shit he fostering not only competition but also allowing people to own their own land, sounds almost like capitalism to me.
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Where? Two words:
or, rather, two letters: P.R.


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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
71. Hush, Solon.
Edited on Fri Sep-30-05 07:18 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
A kindred spirit of his implied to me that the dogs who licked Lazarus' sores had been reading too many books on liberation theology. The Gospels are the new "reds under the bed". He's just a bit retarded on several fronts.
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
134. giving poor peeps any breaks whatsoever = communism
that comes right out of the freeper handbook, i guess this poster is coming out of the closet.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
89. "communist" HAHAHAHAHA! That's a good one!
Hugo doesn't even have any large personal assets.

Lives quite humbly.

Not at all like YOUR HEROS bunkerboy and cheney!
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
116. ROFLMAO!
I expected comment but this is beyond ludicrous, thanks for the laugh although I suspect you didn't intend to be humerous.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
137. Step away from the Kool-aid, put the cup down and back away slowly.n/t
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
29. Hah. Balboa that, Bush!
BTW, has anyone heard anything more about the "Balboa" plan? Has Chavez given any of the documentation to Koppel, as promised?
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
34. This will show up in the markets early next week I believe.
If China were to do the same or the OPEC countries were to change their oil currency from the US dollar to the Euro, we would be totally fucked people.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
37. ..."South American central bank"
Doesn't take much of an imagination to figure out the financial disaster that would follow if LatAm nations moved their $$$$ from US banks to a South American central bank. We can thank the Bushistas war-making and record deficits for much of this.

From the article:

Chavez again proposed the creation of a South American central bank that would hold the foreign exchange reserves of all the central banks in the region.

"I'm ready right now with the Venezuelan central bank ... to move $5 billion (euro4.15 billion) (of Venezuelan reserves), to a South American bank," Chavez said.



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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
78. I can't say its a good thing like others are saying But I can understand
the circumstances that led to this action. Gee, if everyone started liquidating treasuries.... yikes.
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
79. Chvez' Oil-Fueled Revolution
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_41/b395...

snip>

The opposition has pledged to join forces for the elections, but remains discredited after last year's defeat in a referendum that attempted to oust Chvez from office. If voters reward Chvez with a big win, as expected, the way will be clear for sweeping new moves in his Bolivarian revolution -- his populist effort to tap Venezuela's oil wealth to impose socialism in the country. "Chvez is dead set on his revolution; there's no turning back," says Anbal Romero, a political scientist at Simn Bolvar University in Caracas. "The question is how fast and how far."

Food fight
Chvez is moving quickly. He has been boosting spending on health and education since coming to power in 1999, but he is now increasing government control of the economy, to investors' dismay. Oil companies with operating contracts in Venezuela, such as Chevron (CVX ) and BP PLC. (BP ), have been ordered to set up joint ventures controlled by state oil company Petrleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), and royalties have been hiked from 16.7% to 30%. Chvez now has targeted more than 700 plants, particularly in the food industry, that are idle or not operating at capacity for possible expropriation. On Sept. 26 the state seized control of a plant operated by Alimentos Polar, the country's No. 1 private food manufacturer. "This is an unfair and arbitrary expropriation," Polar President Lorenzo Mendoza told reporters, adding that the facility was operational. The move followed the seizure of a shuttered H.J. Heinz Co. (HNZ ) tomato processing facility. The company is negotiating to sell the plant to the state. Chavez defends the moves. "We will only expropriate what is necessary," he said in a recent speech.

The President is also going after rich landowners. Authorities recently began taking control of 21 large ranches spread over hundreds of thousands of acres. Chvez has threatened to hand part of the land to poor Venezuelans unless owners legally document their ownership and show that their spreads are being productively used. In another shock to investors, Chvez disclosed plans to review -- and possibly revoke -- mining concessions and create a national mining company. The news caused shares in Canada's Crystallex International Corp., (KRY ) which has operations in Venezuela, to plunge 52% from Sept. 19 to Sept. 28. "What happens here in Venezuela will undoubtedly have some impact on the commercial decisions of companies, not just from the U.S. but from all over the world," U.S. Ambassador to Venezuela William Brownfield told reporters in Caracas. "Nationalization is a step backward," adds a State Dept. official in Washington.

It may sound risky, but Venezuela can afford it. Gross domestic product soared 17.9% in 2004 as the country rebounded from two years of recession following a long strike at the national oil company. Growth of 6.5% is forecast for this year and next, says Efran Velzquez, president of the National Economic Council. Thanks to a new law, Chvez can dip into the country's $32.6 billion in international reserves for social spending.

snip>

...Critics say his shakeup may redistribute income from the rich and middle classes to the poorest, but the spending won't be sustainable if oil prices tumble. "With oil prices this high, Chvez doesn't need investment," says Miguel Octavio, director of BBO Financial Services, a financial advisory firm. "But if they drop by $15 or $20 , there will be problems....

more...

This, and the success of the labor strike in India this week are not the type of things big money likes to hear about. Privatization is taking a hit in many of the "developing" nations.

So is it democracy Shrub is spreading around or crony capitalism -with the sweat and blood of our young soldiers.
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raysr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-30-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
84. What's the weather like
there? Might be a good place to go. I always loved those spanish women!
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
87. Very smart move by a very smart man.
I never would have thought of it!

God bless Chavez!

FUCK YOU bush*!
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
93. Boosh - uniter not divider
Honest
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
94. You do know this is bad news, don't you?
On a personal level, I respect Hugo Chavez. I see him as the rightful ruler of a democratic society. I think he is brave and honorable, I do admire him in many respects. That said, by pulling out his money, he is hurting our economy and actually emboldens others to do the same. If France pulled out its money out of the U.S. because of our rhetoric and intimidation, we'd be hurt. If China decides to cut up our credit card, we're screwed. This is not good news. The people this is going to affect the most is the American people, the same people who he offers freindship to in his speeches. I understand why he did it and I do not find fault with him for it but I will not applaud this action. I am saddened that things have gotten so screwed up that he felt he had to do this. It is of course his right to pull this money but I wish he could have held on a little longer.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. It's his obligation to guard his country's interests.
If he is aware the Bush administration has funded a coup, work strike, recall effort, etc., etc. and is giving U.S. taxpayer-provided funds to the oligarchy opposition groups, which are determined to find some way to get rid of Chavez, regardless of his enormous popularity with the vast numbers of poor in Venezuela, he knows anything Bush can do to destabilize/destroy Chavez's administration will be attempted.

He is properly attending guardianship of his country's wealth by putting it where it can't be attached by some bogus claim Bush can push through under the pretense, just as contrived as the WMD charges against Hussein, that Hugo Chavez, by God, suddenly seems to be involved in a major terrorist group.

Bush and Rumsfeld and Rice have all been snuffling around South America, mumbling away about their suspicions there are Al Qaida lurking there. They also have been attempting to draw a connection between Hugo Chavez and leftist guerrilas in Colombia, where Bush has squirreled away a staggering amount of even MORE American tax dollars, and has repeatedly committed even more American troops and buildings, aircraft, weapons, advisors, mercenaries, etc., etc.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #94
138. I feel alot like you do, only I blame Bush.......
This isn't going to be good for us, but if * was not such a supreme asshole, this never would've happened.
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Fluffdaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
103. I hope this does not hurt my Nest-Egg. Bad news for my Country
Is bad news for me financially
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ElectroPrincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. Everything's coming up roses since GWB has been anointed, aye? /eom
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Fluffdaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. We have the people that voted Green in 2000 to thank for this mess.
Edited on Sat Oct-01-05 08:24 AM by Fluffdaddy
I hope you Nader voters are damn happy........Fools
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #105
114. Fighting US neoliberalism in foreign policy is going to take a lot more
than electing Kerry or (especially) Gore.

Coup attemtp notwithstanding, I doubt NED would have behaved much differently with either Kerry or Gore in office.

If you want the US to change its foreign policy, we're going to have to elect someone who talks about doing more than Gore and Kerry proposed.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #105
117. Typical DLC drivel, blame others for the failure to endorse neoliberal
policies that the DLC advocates. The Left opposes NAFTA and CAFTA, which have done (and will continue to do) tremendous harm to workers in the US and in the Americas. Chavez opposes unfair trade deals that benefit the transnational corporations.

It is no accident that the GOP and the DLC love to keep Latin America under the jackboots of American hegemony. This is why Condi Rice and the DLC speak the same language when it comes to the Bolivarian Revolution and its social programs that benefit the workers, peasants, and the poor rather than line the pockets of the Caracas elites.

John Kerry and Condi Rice spoke from the same page when it came to Venezuela. Don't expect any of us to support a candidate that does the same in 2008, and don't expect me to "support the troops" if they invade Venezuela.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. Even "Democratic" arms of N.E.D. support opposition in Venezuela:
http://venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1123

The Question Remains: What Is the AFL-CIO doing in Venezuela?
Tuesday, Mar 09, 2004
By: Alberto Ruiz - ZNet

On April 25, 2002, shortly after the short-lived coup which ousted President Hugo Chavez, the New York Times ran an article entitled, "U.S. Bankrolling Is Under Scrutiny for Ties to Chavez Ouster." In this article, which detailed numerous grants given by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) to various pro-coup groups in Venezuela prior to the coup, Times writer Christopher Marquis wrote: "f particular concern is $154,377 given by the endowment to the American Center for International Labor Solidarity, the international arm of the AFL-CIO, to assist the main Venezuelan labor union in advancing labor rights." As the Times noted, "The Venezuelan union, the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers, led the work stoppages that galvanized the opposition to Mr. Chavez. The union's leader, Carlos Ortega, worked closely with Pedro Carmona Estanga, the businessman who briefly took over from Mr. Chavez, in challenging the government."

This Times article caused much embarassment for the AFL-CIO. In response to this article, Stan Gacek, AFL-CIO International Affairs Assistant Director, wrote an open letter explaining that the monies which went to the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers <"CTV"> were for internal union elections with the intent to democratize the CTV. He was adamant that the monies were not intended to assist the CTV in overthrowing Chavez. He also criticized the critics of the AFL-CIO's aid to the CTV for not contacting him directly about the wherefores of this monetary assistance. However, an August 18, 2002 article in the Boston Globe which received very little attention placed Gacek's claims about the money's purposes into doubt.

This article, entitled "US Tax Dollars Helped Finance Some Chavez Foes, Review Finds," reported that the CTV's claims about the aid's purposes conflicted with those of the AFL-CIO. As the article noted, "

art of the grant, distributed by the AFL-CIO's American Center for International Labor Solidarity . . . was supposed to have paid for union elections in November. But the money is being used for courses at the confederation's training institute, said institute director Jesus Urbieta." Even this claim by Urbieta was put into doubt by Alfredo Ramos, a member of the CTV executive committee and Chavez opponent, who quipped in the article that "the institute operates without financial oversight" and that "'hey don't have to show their books.'" And, the Boston Globe reported that in the case of other monies sent by the NED to pro-coup groups in Venezuela, there is proof that the monies did not go for the purposes the other pass-throughs for the NED, such as the International Republican Institute, claimed. Curiously, while Gacek had complained that critics had failed to contact him for an explanation about the aid to the CTV, the Boston Globe reported that "either the endowment nor the AFL-CIO's labor solidarity center responded to repeated requesests for interviews."

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. This is too gross! Who would have expected to see this?
From your article:
The embarassment suffered by the AFL-CIO over its pre-coup assistance to the CTV has not deterred it from continuing to aid the CTV subsequent to the coup. In response to a FOIA request by the Venezuela Solidarity Committee, documents have surfaced which demonstrate the AFL-CIO has continued to support the CTV up through the year 2003 -- again with NED monies. See, www.venezuelafoia.info/NED/ACILS-CTV/pages/ACILS-B10.ht... Thus, the Venezuela Solidarity Committee has posted the grant agreement entered into between the NED and the AFL-CIO Solidarity Center on April 1, 2003. This agreement shows that the Solidarity Center accepted $161,000 from the NED to continue programmatic work with the CTV, and some of this money was earmarked directly for CTV staff and travel expenses. Not surprisingly, Harry Kamberis, a former State Department employee himself and a holdover from the days in which the AFL-CIO was openly collaborating with the U.S. State Department and CIA abroad, signed this grant agreement in his capacity as Exective Director of the AFL-CIO's Solidarity Center.
(snip/...)
The founders of the AFL-CIO should be spinning in their graves. This is flat out unacceptable. The AFL-CIO has been corrupted.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #121
125. Here is a better link to documents
http://www.venezuelafoia.info/acilsa.html

I couldn't get your link to work... sometimes this happens.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Thanks for the link. Really disgusting seeing the contents!
These are NOT bribes, since they are in the form of grants! Nothing underhanded here. Nosirree Bob.

It was such a relief seeing the admonition that all the money contained in a grant has to be spent before the expiration date.
Cute touch. We, the taxpayers are all too happy to supply, apparently, every dime Bush wants to send to the traitors in Venezuela who want to overthrow the legally elected, very popular President.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #121
129. Judy, any organization handling large funds will become corrupt.


Greed is embedded in human nature. We just can't help it. Bodes ill for the future of humanity (if the is a future) unless we find some way to curtail it.
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Fluffdaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #117
124. I don't expect anything for you. Be happy with your wasted Green vote
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. Be happy for your support for IWR and the war it brought
We voted for Kerry in 2004 even though he was confused about where to stand on the war. He is still confused!

The DLC are the enemy within!
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-01-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
115. wow! another blow for our economy
WE MUST IMPEACH BUSH AND SEND THEM ALL TO THE HAGUE
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Blaq Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
143. Hey, that's what happens when you send a Bush and a Dick to Wash. DC
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
145. :) very smart move n/t
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Don1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
147. I like Chavez, but...
it is clear that he will be killed by an assassin very soon. No one will be able to trace it back to the US, but everyone on the left will know...
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. It's so likely they will try (again?). That could be one reason he has
put together his vision for Venezuelan poor to start coming together so beautifully as it has been recently, like one of those pop-up children's books which, by turning a page, suddenly becomes 3 dimensional.

It has seemed he has had historic announcements to make every week, and he has had his Vice President, Jos Rangel, becoming increasing involved in making official public statements, and meetings with government officials from other countries, really starting to step in as a partner, rather than a figurehead. It's easy to guess that he is really trying to get his programs instituted, and functioning as quickly as possible to prevent a slide back into the wicked state it was in prior to his election, in the very possible case he gets murdered by the Bush power-craving criminals. They seek to advance themselves, Chavez seeks to advance the improvement of the quality of life for the downtrodden (downtrodden by Bush's peers in Venezuela.).
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-02-05 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
149. Don't they take in something like 75 million US $ a day for oil sales to
the US?

I read somewhere that we purchase 60% of their 2 million barrels per day of oil exports. Then again, since everyone has to pay for oil with "petrodollars", all of their 2 million barrels per day earn them US $. That's a lot of birdcage liner to recycle per day into another currency. Since oil exports account for something like 75% of Venezuela's economy, they are being buried in US $. Could this be the start of something big?

Petrodollars Could Turn Out To be Bush' Achilles Heel
http://globalpolitician.com/articledes.asp?ID=1159&cid=...

snip>

For the time being, there is no sign that OPEC is officially making the switch. In April 2004, a senior OPEC representative said OPEC has no plans to sell oil for euros. OPEC officials have also mentioned that if and when Norway's Brent crude is re-dominated in euros, this would make a considerable impact on their decisions, as well as if the U.K. adopts the euro. Another major factor is Europe's make up. An approved constitution would have helped tilt the balance in favor of the Euro, but the momentum towards a petroeuro has not been compromised since.


The impact that a move to the Euro would have would be most detrimental to the US economy. "American economic dominance would be over. Not only would Europe not need as many dollars anymore, but Japan which imports over 80% of its oil from the Middle East would think it wise to convert a large portion of its dollar assets to euro assets (Japan is the major subsidiser of the US because it holds so many dollar investments)", says Ciln Nunan of the Foundation for the Economics of Sustainability. The rest of the world would stop financing the US' trade gap, the dollar would plummet and the trade deficit would rise beyond proportions ever seen as the country would be forced to purchase very expensive euros to keep their SUV's guzzling.

The snowballing effect would be more disastrous, as the country's credit risk would fall, property markets would collapse as would stock and bond markets would. It would simply have to stop importing and to start growing a trade surplus. The US' worst fears would materialize; domestic supplies of oil and gas were contracting and there would be no money to go to war to go get it.

The European Union has on several occasions said it would welcome the euro as the currency of the oil markets. But so far, the international chorus joining in has been rather modest. Malaysia publicly encouraged his country's oil and gas exporters to move from the dollar to the euro, but to find out the extent to which this is happening is difficult. One analyst at GoldMoney, James Turk, says that that oil exporters systematically have started pricing their oil in euro terms to not lose out on the weakening dollar for a number of years. He believes that in some cases the transactions are taking place in Euros. However, this is not officially confirmed, but then it would not be, because the issue is too sensitive. Nevertheless it is a telling sign that OPEC members have significantly reduced their deposits denominated in dollars in favor of the euro from 2001 to 2004. The countries reduced their dollar reserves by 13 percentage points, according to the Bank for International Settlements. Dollar-denominated deposits fell to 61.5 per cent of total deposits by members OPEC in the second quarter of 2004, from 75 per cent in the third quarter of 2001. The share of euro-denominated deposits rose to 20 per cent from 12 per cent over the same period.

It is unlikely that OPEC will officially make the switch, but other major oil venues are keen to do so. The Iranians, who are not part of the cartel, are launching an important trading platform next year in March that will certainly make the issue more prevalent and could even end up becoming a source of major competition for the New York and London bourses. Mohammad Javad Assemipur, who will be in charge of the bourse, said "We sought consultation from 180 stock markets and relevant institutes in the world before deciding to open this bourse in Iran. But we have not copied their structures and we have our own system in the country," he added. Happy clients are bound to include Russia and China, which over recent years have significantly increased their euro reserves, which appears to be a 'coordinated move to facilitate the anticipated ascendance of the euro as a second World Reserve Currency', says William R. Clark, an expert on the subject, in an article published on informationclearinghouse. Iran is on close terms with both countries and even signed a huge oil and gas trade agreements of well over $100 to 200 billion dollars with China.

"One of the Federal Reserve's nightmares may begin to unfold in the spring of 2006, when it appears that international buyers will have a choice of buying a barrel of oil for $60 dollars on the NYMEX and IPE - or purchase a barrel of oil for 45 - 50 euros via the Iranian Bourse. This < ...> assumes that some sort of US "intervention" is not launched against Iran", says Clark.

more...

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-03-05 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
150. Venezuela withdraws foreign reserves from US banks ... first step to Euro?
Published: Sunday, October 02, 2005
Bylined to: Bernardo Delgado

Venezuela withdraws foreign reserves from US banks ... first step to Euro?

Venezuelanalysis.com Bernardo Delgado writes: President Chavez has announced that Venezuela has sold its foreign currency reserves ... which were held in US treasury bonds ... and deposited them in banks in Europe. We have had to withdraw our international reserves from US banks, due to the threats we have, said Chavez, according to the Associated Press.

Chavez went on to say that his government is interested in depositing a part of its reserves in Latin America. Just as we moved them to Europe, we can move them to a South American bank. By god, dont tell me thats impossible.
(snip)

In the course of the meeting, which all South American leaders attended, Chavez proposed that they should all consider depositing a part of their foreign currency reserves in a newly-created South American development bank. Venezuela would be willing to launch such a bank with an initial deposit of $5 billion. According to Chavez, such a South American development bank could eventually include countries from Asia and Africa, to become a world bank.
(snip)

Recently, Venezuelas National Assembly changed the countrys central bank law, so that excess foreign reserves can be used for repayment of Venezuelas foreign debt or for purchases abroad.

The Central Bank is to calculate how much foreign reserves Venezuela ought to have and reserves in excess of this amount would be transferred to a special development fund.
(snip/...)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=46190
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