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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:05 AM
Original message
W Post: Experts Say Faulty Levees Caused Much of Flooding
This is huge. As the article points out, if true, the federal government would be responsible and cupable for most of the flooding damage to New Orleans.

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 20 -- Louisiana's top hurricane experts have rejected the official explanations for the floodwall collapses that inundated much of New Orleans, concluding that Hurricane Katrina's storm surges were much smaller than authorities have suggested and that the city's flood- protection system should have kept most of the city dry.

The Army Corps of Engineers has said that Katrina was just too massive for a system that was not intended to protect the city from a storm greater than a Category 3 hurricane, and that the floodwall failures near Lake Pontchartrain were caused by extraordinary surges that overtopped the walls.

But with the help of complex computer models and stark visual evidence, scientists and engineers at Louisiana State University's Hurricane Center have concluded that Katrina's surges did not come close to overtopping those barriers. That would make faulty design, inadequate construction or some combination of the two the likely cause of the breaching of the floodwalls along the 17th Street and London Avenue canals -- and the flooding of most of New Orleans.

In the weeks since Katrina drowned this low-lying city, there has been an intense focus on the chaotic government response to the flood. But Ivor van Heerden, the Hurricane Center's deputy director, said the real scandal of Katrina is the "catastrophic structural failure" of barriers that should have handled the hurricane with relative ease. "We are absolutely convinced that those floodwalls were never overtopped," said van Heerden, who also runs LSU's Center for the Study of Public Health Impacts of Hurricanes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/20/AR2005092001894_pf.html
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have been wondering how long till
Edited on Wed Sep-21-05 03:22 AM by Jim4Wes
someone that knew their shit came out against the official ACE story line.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I'm now wondering how long until....
.... the failure of the levees is linked to Clinton.
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. Clinton??
Clinton? No it's not Clinton fault. But the Democrat machine that runs New Orleans and most of Louisiana is most certainly to be found guilty on that charge. They rule down here!!

This (Louisiana) is one of the most corrupt states (politically) in the USA. So if Washington start handing over money to all the local political crooks - watch out!!
D
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Isn't the Corps of Engineers a federal entity?
So, I don't see what the state government has to do with it. The Mississippi is an interstate waterway, after all, and the levees are an essential part of that.
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. It wasn't the Miss River Levees that gave way


It wasn't the Miss River Levees that gave way. One set of breaches happened on the flood wall on what is know as the 17th Street Canal which is one of the main drainage canals for New Orleans and this canal drains into Lake Ponchartrain which is the North East side of New Orleans. The other I heard was on SE side of the City along the Industrial Canal. I am not sure about the Industrial Canal Levee/Flood wall system but I think it is maintained by US Army Corp of Engineers. I am pretty sure New Orleans via the Orleans (Parish) Levee Board maintains the Lake Levee and the 17th street canal. Of course most of the funding is given to them by the "us" via US Federal government (our taxes).

The Levee Board has been under investigation for all kinds of things in the last few years, mainly misappropriating funds. The Mayor of NOLA and Governor Blanco would have been well aware of these troubles that are/were plaguing the Orleans Levee Board.

Also there is lot to all that and the political situation in New Orleans than I can write here. In fact a person could write several books about the so called "Big Easy".

D
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #48
74. I presume the levee system is interconnected, though
I don't know if it makes geographical sense to partition the system into Mississippi vs seawall - its all water and it all connects up. But it may have some political and/or jurisdictional foundation.

I don't doubt that there is plenty of corruption at many levels of government there. For some reason it makes me think of the movie "JFK", which was mostly set in New Orleans.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
68. Offically called "US Army Corps of Engineers" they are responsible
Edited on Thu Sep-22-05 10:33 AM by demo dutch
for investigating, developing and maintaining the nation's
water and related environmental resources. They have districts all over the country. Pretty corrupt outfit

Here's their homepage
http://www.usace.army.mil/

Office is located:
Civil Works Office is
U.S. Army Engineer District, New Orleans
P.O. Box 60267 <7400 Leake Ave.>
New Orleans, LA 70160-0267 <70118>
Phone: 504-862-2204
Fax: 504-862-1259

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. So now we have liars running the Army Corps of Engineers?
These people have been our pride and joy.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I hate to have to say it
but in these times with these criminals running our government I believe even the Corp is affected by politics. There was a story about the OMB guy the Bushies put in place having a particular desire to cut funding to the Army Corp of Engineers to new lows.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
72. Yes check out this press release from the Corps.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
69. First of all, a lot of incompetent people at the corps. Plus the
Edited on Thu Sep-22-05 10:42 AM by demo dutch
work is stop and go. Contractors stop working (fearing not getting paid) because the corps doesn't have the funds to pay the contractors. Scaling back on project etc, undermines the work
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Orleans Levee Board may be the blame for levee failures!
Take a look (read) at the following web site for a local "more informative" information considering the New Orleans disaster.



http://www.newshorn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=293&Itemid=116
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. You have to wonder why Washington Post
is reporting this now....

Here is how Media Matters reported on Washington Post's coverage on hurricane Katrina;



http://mediamatters.org/items/200509100002



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sattahipdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Allbaugh and Bremer.
Edited on Wed Sep-21-05 05:53 AM by sattahipdeep
DISPATCHES FROM AMERICA
The reconstruction of New Oraq
By Tom Engelhardt and Nick Turse

"At times it is hard to ignore the comparisons between Baghdad
(where I was less than a month ago and have spent more of the last
two years) and New Orleans: the anarchy, the looting, some of it purely
for survival, some of it purely opportunistic. We watched a flatbed truck
drive by, a man on the back with an M-16 looking up on the roofs for
snipers, as is common in Iraq. Private security contractors were
stationed outside the Royal St Charles Hotel; when asked if things
were getting pretty wild around the area, one of them replied, 'Nope.
It's pretty Green Zone here'."
- (David Enders, Surviving New Orleans, Mother Jones online)

In the decade before September 11, 2001, "globalization", a word
now largely missing in action, was on everyone's lips and we
constantly heard about what a small, small world this really was. In
the aftermath of Katrina, that global smallness has grown positively
claustrophobic and particularly predatory.

Iraq and New Orleans now seem to be morphing into a single entity,
New Oraq, to be devoured by the same limited set of corporations, let
loose and overseen by the same small set of Bush administration
officials. In President George W Bush's new world of globalization,
first comes the destruction, and only then does one sit down at the
planetary table to sup.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GI15Ak01.html



Blackwater mercenaries are some of the most feared
professional killers in the world. What are they doing
prowling the streets of NOLA?

http://alternet.org/katrina/25320/

http://alternet.org/images/managed/Story+Image_thumb_091205_story.jpg
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subchicagogal Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. So, how will this affect insurance payouts?
I can't recall what the distinction was. I seem to remember that if the hurricane didn't cause the flooding and damage, then the insurance companies don't have to pay out. But, it's early and I'm still drinking my coffee, so maybe I have that all wrong!
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Who knows...
Insurance payouts will eventually be governed by the LA Supreme Ct and the Dept. of Insurance, after a long time and a bunch of lawsuits.

In theory, some language in the policy excludes ANY damage from rising water. No matter how it got there, if there is rising water, its excluded (even sewer backup). If the water is falling then its covered. According to the insurance companies, never the 'twain shall they meet.

That being said, there is a potential claim (now much stronger) that flooding was not the proximate cause of the damages. Instead, the negligence of the ACE and Levee Board was the proximate cause of damages. If that's the case, then insurance very well may have to pay depending on the specific policy owned by the homeowner.

One final note... no one that I know of has applied the LA law to the insurance contracts recently, especially in regards to flooding. Since previous precident does not exist in the state, and every "question of law" must be determined de novo, there are some interesting possibilities.
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subchicagogal Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Thanks.....
for the detailed reply! It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out over the next few years as the cases go through the court system.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Wasn't there a lot of flooding a few years back in Mississippi because
Levees did not hold up? I seem to recall there was tremendous flooding from Mississippi River. Levees were topped and some even breached. don't know whether Insurance paid or not though.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. zone C (no flood zone) houses in those areas don't have flood insurance!
insurance agents have been telling ppl it's fraud to sell flood insurance in zone C areas, you have to be pushy to buy it, apparently there were arrests in the late 80s or early 90s of agents selling unnecessary flood insurance

many houses affected by the london ave. canal break are NOT in a normal flood plain

homeowner's doesn't cover flooding unless it is secondary to wind damage

example, my house was crushed by a tree in a storm, water poured thru the open roof, ruining the floor, i was covered by homeowner's

my next door neighbor's house was flooded in the rising water of a freak spring storm (not a tropical), he wasn't covered by homeowner's & because we weren't in a flood plain, he had no flood insurance, so he had to get federal aid

if it comes from above, it's homeowner's

if it comes from below, it's nat'l flood insurance

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lynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
66. That's what I'm wondering. Why would it make a difference?
Flood, rising water, wind driven rain, backup from sewer and drains are all excluded from homeowners policies. Period. Nothing in the contract indicates that the reason for the flood would make any difference in the consideration of a claim.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Brotherjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. These experts have been saying this in the N.O. paper for weeks.
They are firmly convinced, and have been since 3-4 days after Katrina, that the "overtopping and erosion" scenario was NOT what happened.

This seems to be patently clear, and easily proven, if earthen levees on the lake showed no signs of overtopping (and if they were at about the same height, which I think they were).

On reading this story, what amazed me is that there weren't floodgates at the mouths of these canals. It seems to me a relatively cheap solution that could have saved the city (or most of it, anyway). Design flaws or not, everyone knows that eartehn levees are stronger than these types of floodwalls. A good strong floodgate at the mouths of the canals would mean the city wouldn't even have to rely on the floodwalls (just close the gate when a storm is coming).

Hindsight is 20-20, I know, but there are people (the Army Corps of Engineers, in particular) who get paid to have the foresight to anticipate these things.

As for conspiracy theories and people hearing "explosions", that is all tin foil hat stuff. Speaking as someone who has rode out Category 3 storms before, you hear a LOT of loud noises. There's no WAY you could say you "heard" a levee break. Plus, the federal government had everything to lose, and nothing to gain, by this happening.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. I Have Suspected A Catastrophic Foundation Failure Since Day 1
Either a design flaw, or localized foundation problems that were not detected during subsurface investigations.

As a practicing engineer, my ears perked up when I heard the concrete walls were 'retrofits' on existing levees.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4507221#4507605

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4683669#4687980
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
70. Design flaws plus the fact that the work is stop and go, undermining
the project. I've read several reports on contractors stoppping work fearing the corps wouldn't be able to pay them as they were constantly running out of money. Faulty budgets probably resulting in scaling back projects etc.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Defense contractors will rake in more record profits at tax payer expense.
Corporations like Bechtel had everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Defense contractors and oil companies will continue to rake in record profits at the expense of the US middle class. They have everything to gain and very little to lose from any disaster foisted on the US populace that results in rampant, bipartisan-supported looting of the US treasury.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. Corporations like Bechtel had everything to gain and nothing to lose.
Defense contractors and oil companies will continue to rake in record profits at the expense of the US middle class. They have everything to gain and very little to lose from any disaster foisted on the US populace that results in rampant, bipartisan-supported looting of the US treasury.
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
11. About Levees....
Edited on Wed Sep-21-05 10:50 AM by LeftHander
I have done some research on Levee failures and like levees in the northern plains floods of the 90's it is likey that the foundation of the levees in NOLA were undermined by high waterside levee pressure. The water forced it's way from deep underground, beneath the levee. NOLA soil is layered, porus and unstable. Once water finds a small path under the levee it creates what are called "sand boils" on the land side of the levee many yards away where waterbubbles out of the ground like a spring.

The result is an ever increasing torrent of watter bubbling up as much as a block or more away from the levee foot. Eventually the underground river of water gets bigger and bigger and floats an entire section of the levee away. This was seen time and time again along the missouri river when levees were holding back massive flood waters for extended periods of time. Add to that saturated land side ground from torrential rain and you have a problem.

There are holes that are drilled on land sides of levee to extract water that seeps under the levee once those fail the levee waterlogs underneath and ultimately collapses.

Levees are only supposed to hold water back for a brief time until flood water recedes. Most levees exist with dry ground on either side of the levee. Far away form the banks of the river and on the edge of the natural flood plain.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. then how come the experts in the aritcle don't mention this possibility?
Moreover, why wasn't more of an effort made to repair the levees immediately?

Also, these were canal floodwalls, not earthen levees holding back a huge body of water. Why weren't the canal openings sealed off or the floodgates closed?

I smell a rat.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
12. They'll find some low level slob and claim that he sold them
bad cee-ment, and they didn't know it....then they'll hang him, dust off their hands, and decry LA corruption....
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. "localized Pressure burst" ... (17th St Levee)"Shouldn't have broken"
:tinfoilhat:

just enough C4 to make it happen and get washed away?
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eyepaddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Here's more on the topic from NYT
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. meaning what by culpable
i know of a family that has lost 6 homes, total losses, in those areas which are not normally considered to be on the flood plain, as a result of the break in the london avenue canal floodwall

will the feds be financially responsible for replacing those homes

or does culpable mean only that * will say "oh woe it will be hard work" & some flunky is fired

$2000 per household is not going to help this family recover

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. Whoa! Mr. Barry is right on here....
<snip>

John M. Barry -- who criticized the Corps in "Rising Tide," a history of the Mississippi River flood of 1927 -- said that if Katrina did not exceed the design capacity of the New Orleans levees, the federal government may bear ultimate responsibility for this disaster.

"If this is true, then the loss of life and the devastation in much of New Orleans is no more a natural disaster than a surgeon killing a patient by failing to suture an artery would be a natural death," Barry said. "And that surgeon would be culpable."

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Blame??

Since the blame game has been played since day one.
Then let's put the blame on the local government first??
What have they been doing all these years about these problems ?
They have been given millions and millions of dollars for these kind of problems. This problem goes back more for over 20 years.
People who live here in Louisiana are not really surprised but all these problems, considering we the third most corrupt state in the USA-no bragging about that either.
The Mayor had a city disaster plan-he didn't follow it.
The Governor had one but was late in starting it.
I think the blame is Louisiana's fault not the Feds.
My 2 cents.
D
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Where does the buck stop again?
What is the purpose of a federal government if not to respond to major civil disasters and threats beyond the scope of local governments?
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Should the Feds wait for an invitation or ...
I don't understand - Should the Feds wait for an invitation from the local "authorities" or just start sending in Paratroopers or Boating Fed troops in and telling the local police & fire Dept's., the Mayor and the Governor to get out the way and they are now taking control??
D
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. If not to respond to massive threats to the American populace,
why does the federal government even exist?
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. It's explained in the US Constitution
It's explained in the US Constitution and it's pretty clear that the Federal Government was to have a limited roll in governing. Mainly their duties were to maintain a Military (US Coast Guard) to protect our borders and collect custom duties. Also to write and plan treaties with other countries with approval of Congress. Since we are actually a Representative republic versus a "true" democracy we voted to a few of our neighbors from each state to represent our interest (states interest) to vote the will of the people not what he or she felt is right. It has never worked very well as planned, people being people and many being stubborn as donkeys. At least the framers were concerned enough with foreseeable problems that made that a Bill of Rights was included in the Constitution to protect us all from the Federal Government. Then the civil war came along and President Lincoln-R, suspended the Constitution and went to war with those states seeking to succeed from the "Federal (System) Government". The Feds won and here we are today, with the 9 Federal Judges telling us what can and cannot do. They seem to see things in our Bill of Rights and it's beyond me how they think? There's a good book written recently named "Men in Black".
I am by no means a expert on the U.S. Constitution so ...
D
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. So it's OK for thousands of Americans to die as long as their deaths
weren't caused by another nation state?

Because I'm seriously wondering why the federal government's PRIMARY job of defending the lives and welfare of US citizens doesn't seem to extend to the 9/11 attack OR Katrina in the minds of many Americans.

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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. "...the breaches was consistent with a localized 'pressure burst...,'"
So, what exactly do they mean by "pressure burst?" Are they talking a Bomb? Or just a weak, possibly fraudulently designed wall?:shrug:
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. Too much force!
How about too much weight and force.
Water is a hell of a force to deal with!
D
:think:
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Try reading the article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/20/AR2005092001894_pf.html

Louisiana's top hurricane experts have rejected the official explanations for the floodwall collapses that inundated much of New Orleans, concluding that Hurricane Katrina's storm surges were much smaller than authorities have suggested and that the city's flood- protection system should have kept most of the city dry.
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Read the article before
Read the article and I know it will not be the final word on the subject.
By other accounts the Lake and Canal were experiencing Cat 4 conditions and the Cat 3 Flood wall gave way. Not by over-topping but by breaking through which the WA Post mentions.
The Wa Post is in error when it refers to the Miss Gulf outlet be little used too. It is used by many smaller ships and tows, hell it brings in a big percentage of the country's coffee or at least it use to.
Any rate I am not an expert on levees but I do know the difference between a earthen levee and a cement wall. So many posting on the internet seem to have a difficulty telling the difference between the two, especially the press.
It would be no surprise to me to find out the cement (concrete flood wall) were inferior.
Louisiana has had to rebuild almost all of it I-20 overpasses because of crooked contractor lightening up on the cement and re-bar to make more money. A past Governor was responsible for that debacle.
By the way are living or from Louisiana?
D
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Goldensilence Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. sounds like more disinformation to me...
what's more likely a bomb planted that exploded to blow up the levees or planted afterward for us to see there might be some terrorist plot? I personally am gald it's not being mentioned publically as it'd be a distraction and a cue for Bush to play his favorite card or terrorism.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. But NOBODY's coming within 1000 feet of that card,
even as BushCo politically drowns.

If the levee breaches were the result of foul play, Islamic terrorists wouldn't be able to make the first page of logical suspects.
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. Is Orleans Levee Board the blame for levee failures!
Take a look (read) at the following web site for a local "more informative" information considering the New Orleans disaster.



http://www.newshorn.com/index.php?option=com_content&ta...
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
31. Is there a topological map of NOLA anywhere? I'd like to answer...
this question:

What if the Industrial Canal levee failed (and failed more dramatically), but the 17th St. levee DIDN'T FAIL? What would have flooded then? :shrug:
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. NOLA -- Map
Not exactly a topo map (I'm looking for one I use to have), anyway this a very interesting map.
D :patriot:
======================
http://mapper.cctechnol.com/floodmap
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Make Levee Not War!
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Make levee not war
That's a good one!:rofl: :rofl:
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
40. New Orleans Spent $2.5 million Levee money in 2005 for what?
Edited on Wed Sep-21-05 05:26 PM by denp54
So where does all that Fed & State levee protection money go??
Here's just a sample where some of went.
D
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
"I was so happy the worst-case scenario didn't unfold" Mayor Nagin-New Orleans- 8/29/2005 - :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
========================================
http://www.mardigrasdigest.com/News/Articles/2005/newspage_0508.html

-------
update: It was $2.5 million local money and $7.5 million from the FEDS for levee protections!!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Deleted message
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denp54 Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
45. Katrina Time Line for New Orleans
The following was sent me awhile ago and I thought some others might like to read it too.
I'll let it speak for itself.
D


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"---The following is a timeline that details the response of local, state, and federal authorities to the disaster in New Orleans.

I have not included any information for other areas hit by the storm.

I used one source almost exclusively – the online editions of the New Orleans Times-Picayune (hereinafter referred to as TP). I daresay the paper will receive a Pulitzer Prize for their coverage.

IT IS NOT MY INTENTION TO PLAY THE “BLAME GAME” BY PUBLISHING THIS TIMELINE.. In fact, if you have a link to a story that contradicts or adds to this timeline, I urge you to send it along. My sole purpose is to place this timeline on the record to dispel the rumors, the spin, and the outright falsehoods being flung about by both right and left bloggers and pundits.

The timeline runs from Friday, August 26 to Friday September 2.

************************************************************

The following is a timeline that details the response of local, state, and federal authorities to the disaster in New Orleans.

I have not included any information for other areas hit by the storm.

I used one source almost exclusively – the online editions of the New Orleans Times-Picayune (hereinafter referred to as TP). I daresay the paper will receive a Pulitzer Prize for their coverage.

IT IS NOT MY INTENTION TO PLAY THE “BLAME GAME” BY PUBLISHING THIS TIMELINE.. In fact, if you have a link to a story that contradicts or adds to this timeline, I urge you to send it along. My sole purpose is to place this timeline on the record to dispel the rumors, the spin, and the outright falsehoods being flung about by both right and left bloggers and pundits.

The timeline runs from Friday, August 26 to Friday September 2.

************************************************************

FRIDAY, AUGUST 26

Afternoon

Dozens of local, state, and federal disaster officials meet to discuss FEMA Disaster Declaration No. 1601 that was issued as a result of tropical storm Cindy damages that occurred in July.

They also briefly discussed Katrina – although not quite in the context you might think:

“We’ve got this one storm we’re clearing up, yet we have another in the Gulf,” he said of Katrina, a rapidly strengthening storm that crossed south Florida on Thursday night and is expected to make a second landfall as a strong Category 3 hurricane somewhere between Louisiana and Florida late Sunday or Monday.

The subject of Friday’s meeting was serious, but as is often the case, participants relied on a bit of humor to ease the tension.

“Shouldn’t we just apply for Katrina money now? It would save time and taxpayers’ money,” joked Jim Baker, operations superintendent for the East Jefferson Levee District, one of the public agencies in line for a FEMA check.

Wonder what the group thought about this?

Off and on throughout the morning, Smith and Col. Steve Dabadie, Louisiana National Guard chief of staff, used a hand-held device to keep a check on Katrina’s track.

When the storm began a slight shift to the west, the device was passed from hand-to-hand for others to get a look.

Bet that room sobered up quite a bit after that.

SATURDAY, AUGUST 27

Morning

Overnight, Katrina strengthened and was drawing a bead on the gulf coast, moving west-northwest at 15 miles an hour and packing winds of 115 MPH.

In response to a letter from Governor Blanco, President Bush ordered a state of emergency for Louisiana, authorizing federal emergency management officials to release federal aid and coordinate disaster relief efforts.

Afternoon

A press conference with Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco sounded the alarm. The Mayor urged residents to take the storm seriously saying to residents of low lying areas, “We want you to take this a little more seriously and start moving — right now, as a matter of fact,” Nagin said he would open the Superdome as a shelter of “last resort” for people with “special needs.”

He advised anyone planning to stay there to bring there own food, drinks and other comforts such as folding chairs, as if planning to go camping.

“No weapons, no large items, and bring small quanties of food for three or four days, to be safe,” he said.

Nagin spokeswoman Tami Frazier stressed that the mayor does not want citizens to plan on staying in the Dome—instead, they should make arrangements to leave the city if possible.

Police Superintendent Edward Compass said that looters would be “dealt with severly and harshly and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.”

By mid-afternoon, officials in Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, Lafourche, Terrebonne and Jefferson parishes had called for voluntary or mandatory evacuations.

Mayor Nagin issued a voluntary evacuation order at 5:00 PM.

Nagin said late Saturday that he’s having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he’s been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses. “Come the first break of light in the morning, you may have the first mandatory evacuation of New Orleans,” Nagin told WWL-TV.

The National Hurrican Center warns officials that Katrina is strengthening and will probably make landfall as a Category 4 or 5. This is really scary. This is not a test, as your governor said earlier today. This is the real thing,” said Director Max Mayfield. “The bottom line is this is a worst-case scenario and everybody needs to recognize it,” he said.

SUNDAY, AUGUST 28

Morning

By 8:00 AM, Katrina has been upgraded to a category 5 hurricane and is headed straight for New Orleans. This is what finally precipitated the mandatory evacuation order issued at 9:00 AM:

The Superdome opens at 8:00 AM and begins to take people in.

In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.

There doesn’t seem to be any relief in sight,” Blanco said.

At 11:30 AM the President delivers a statement vowing to help those affected by the hurricane.

By noon, the city puts its contraflow traffic system in effect so that both sides of major highways will allow for traffic out of the city.

Afternoon

The Coast Guard Auxillary was preparing to deploy. “William Crouch, Vice Commodore of the Auxiliary Eighth District Central Region stated this afternoon that “units from outlying areas are preparing to depart for the disaster area as soon as the situation becomes clear.”

By 3:00 PM, more than 10,000 people had either made their way into the Superdome or were standing outside. Those with medical problems were shuffled over to one side of the dome. Everyone else went to the other side:

“The people arriving on this side of the building are expected to fend for themselves,” said Terry Ebbert, the city’s homeland security director. “We have some water.”

About 150 National Guard soldiers, New Orleans police and civil sheriff’s deputies were patrolling the facility. Some weapons were confiscated.

Officials were settling in for what they predicted would be an incredibly hot and uncomfortable night. They expected flooding on the field and loss of power early today.

But officials were confident they could care for those with special needs.

“I’m not worried about what is tolerable or intolerable,” he said. “I’m worried about, whether you are alive on Tuesday.”

Mayor Nagin ordered a curfew for the city beginning at 6:00 PM.

Evening

Louisiana Senators send a joint letter to the President thanking him for his actions and requesting that he visit the storm ravaged area “as soon as practical.”

The Coast Guard closes the ports and waterways into New Orleans. “The Guard also moved 40 aircraft and 30 boats and cutters in positions surrounding the expected strike zone, such as Houston and Jacksonville, readying to conduct search and rescue and humantarian missions, the Guard release said. ”

A 10:00 PM Katrina advisory by the National Hurricane Center has the storm moving slightly to the east and weakening.

About 26,000 people are taking refuge in the Superdome. “To help keep them fed and hydrated, the Louisiana National Guard delivered three truckloads of water and seven truckloads of MREs — short for “meals ready to eat.” That’s enough to supply 15,000 people for three days, according to Col. Jay Mayeaux, deputy director of the Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Emergency Preparedness.

Louis Armstrong Airport closes late Sunday night.

MONDAY, AUGUST 29

Overnight and Morning

More than 4,000 National Guardsmen are mobilizing in Memphis” to help police New Orleans streets.

The city’s director of homeland security said tonight that officials hope Katrina gets through the region Monday with several hours of daylight left so they can get up in the air and assess the damage.

“We are going to have very limited communication,” Terry Ebbert said. “The first order of business will be life-saving operations.” That may mean relocating thousands of people in the Superdome once power goes out and temperatures start to rise above 100 degrees, he said

At 3:00 AM the National Hurricane Center reported Katrian three hours from landfall with winds of 150 MPH.

Aircraft in position to help assess the damage and carry out rescues:

Aircraft are positioned from Hammond to the Texas border ready to fly behind the storm to check damage after it passes over New Orleans, said Maj. Gen. Bennett C. Landreneau, head of the Louisiana National Guard.

Search and rescue operations are being coordinated by the Guard with the state Wildlife and Fisheries Department and Coast Guard poised to help search for survivors stranded by the storm. Guardsmen are also deployed at the Jackson Barracks ready to head into the city using high-water vehicles, Landreneau said.

Director Ebbert said rescue priorities would be given to those stranded in their homes and those hospitalized. “If the storm passes by 2 p.m., Ebbert said, “we have a few hours to get these people out before dark. It may involve some airlifts.’’

Hurricane Katrina strikes New Orleans at 8:00 AM with winds at 150 MPH and a storm surge of 18 feet.

As the Category 4 surged ashore just east of New Orleans on Monday, FEMA had medical teams, rescue squads and groups prepared to supply food and water poised in a semicircle around the city, said agency Director Michael Brown.

Brown, in a telephone interview with The Associated Press, said the evacuation of the city and the general emergency response were working as planned in an exercise a year ago. “I was impressed with the evacuation, once it was ordered it was very smooth.”

Levee break at 17th street floods about 20% of the city.

At 11:00 AM, FEMA Director Brown arrives in Baton Rouge at the State Office of Emergency Preparedness.

Afternoon

At 1:30 PM, boil order goes into effect for water.

At 1:45 PM, President Bush declares the states of Louisiana and Mississippi “Major Disaster Areas.”

Midafternoon: First reports of looting. TP terms it “widespread.”

At midafternoon Monday, a parade of looters streamed from Coleman’s Retail Store at 4001 Earhart Blvd. The looters, men and women who appeared to be in their early teens to mid-40s, braved a steady rain and infrequent tropical-stormforce winds to tote away boxes of clothing and shoes from the store.

By 2:00 PM, “Wes McDermott, from the office of emergency preparedness in New Orleans, said officials have fielded at least 100 calls from people in distress in the Lower 9th Ward and eastern New Orleans.”

At 3:00 PM President Bush said in a speech in Arizona “the federal government has got assets and resources that we’ll be deploying to help you.”

At 3:00 PM, Director Ebbett said “Everybody who had a way or wanted to get out of the way of this storm was able to. For some that didn’t, it was their last night on this earth.’’ He also said that the city had 100 boats to carry out search and rescue operations.

By 5:00 PM, hundreds of reports are coming in of people trapped by the flood.

At 6:50 PM, more reports of looting.

Evening

Search and Rescue teams work through the night to bring people to safety.

Landreneau said by dawn he will have more than 200 boars in the water, 120 more than he had Monday. He said he has a commitment from Texas for another 50 boats.

Red Cross issues a statement. Expects largest recovery operation ever:

American Red Cross spokesman Victor Howell said 750 to 1,000 Red Cross personnel are now at work on hurricane recovery in Louisiana, and 2,000 more volunteers will be here in the next few days.

The Red Cross will bring in three large mobile kitchens to prepare 500,000 meals per day. There are 40 shelters statewide, housing about 32,000 people, “and you’re going to have more,” Howell said.

Mayor Nagin, in an interview with TP relates a conversation with federal disaster officials. “FEMA said give us a list of your needs,” said Nagin, referring to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. “And let me tell you, we’re giving them a hell of a list.”

TUESDAY, AUGUST 30

Morning

Water continues to rise with officials at a loss how to explain it.

It is announced that 500 “special needs patients” at the Superdome will be moved by the end of the day “by whatever means necessary.” Also, Director Landenreau says that 350 boats are in the water looking for trapped residents with 60 more on the way from Texas.

By midmorning it is confirmed that 4 people have died at the Superdome; 3 sick patients and one probable suicide.

Prisoner evacuation from two jails begins.

President’s statement on Katrina devastation.

TP evacuates - moves to Houma

Pentagon spokesman Di Rita issues statement saying “the states have adequate National Guard units to handle the hurricane needs, with at least 60 percent of the guard available in each state. He said about 6,500 National Guard troops were available in Louisiana, about 7,000 troops in Mississippi, nearly 10,000 in Alabama and about 8,200 in Florida.

Afternoon

At 4:30 PM, officials send out a call for anyone with boats to help in the rescue effort.

TP reports that police and firefighters are joining in the looting:

At the Wal-Mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, an initial effort to hand out provisions to stranded citizens quickly disintegrated into mass looting. Authorities at the scene said bedlam erupted after the giveaway was announced over the radio.

While many people carried out food and essential supplies, others cleared out jewelry racks and carted out computers, TVs and appliances on handtrucks.

Some officers joined in taking whatever they could, including one New Orleans cop who loaded a shopping cart with a compact computer and a 27-inch flat screen television. (Um…read the whole thing. You won’t believe it. Ed.)

Director Ebbert announces that work has begun to plug the 17th street levee. (Note: Work on plugging the levee did not begin at this time. It is unclear whether he was told that it was beginning or whether he assumed it was from a conversation with the Army Corps of Engineers who said work would begin that afternoon. Ed.)

Levee repair timeline uncertain. This from National Guard Commander Jeff Smith:

Col. Jeff Smith with the Louisiana National Guard said the Corps has informed the state that they are beginning to plan how exactly to fill the holes in the levee, which observers described as several hundred feet long.

Ebbert says work has started. Smith says work has started on planning. This would be a possible explanation for both Ebbert and the Mayor’s frustration. Could they have misunderstood?

Also, hospitals are being evacuated and rescue operations continue. The Governor made it clear that search and rescue was the highest priority:

Blanco said that while search and rescue operations continued that officials were also getting supplies to hospitals and people who sought refuge at the Superdome, which is receiving more residents as people are rescued. After officials have completed all of their rescue operations, they will begin to assess how to evacuate other people in the city who are in high, dry locations.

At 5:50 PM Bush announces he is cutting short his vacation and returning to Washington.

As of Tuesday, less than 24 hours after the storm had passed over the area, this represented the federal response to date to the disaster. Here are some highlights:

FEMA deployed 23 Disaster Medical Assistance Teams from all across the U.S. to staging areas in Alabama, Tennessee, Texas, and Louisiana and is now moving them into impacted areas.

Seven Urban Search and Rescue task forces and two Incident Support Teams have been deployed and propositioned in Shreveport, La., and Jackson, Miss., including teams from Florida, Indiana, Ohio, Maryland, Missouri, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia. Three more Urban Search and Rescue teams are in the process of deployment.

FEMA is moving supplies and equipment into the hardest hit areas as quickly as possible, especially water, ice, meals, medical supplies, generators, tents, and tarps.

The U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) dispatched more than 390 trucks that are beginning to deliver millions of meals ready to eat, millions of liters of water, tarps, millions of pounds of ice, mobile homes, generators, containers of disaster supplies, and forklifts to flood damaged areas. DOT has helicopters and a plane assisting delivery of essential supplies.

The National Guard of the four most heavily impacted states are providing support to civil authorities as well as generator, medical and shelter with approximately 7,500 troops on State Active Duty. The National Guard is augmenting civilian law enforcement capacity; not acting in lieu of it.

At 6:30 PM Mayor Nagin issued an urgent bulletin:

Nagin said efforts to stop the flow of water at the breach on the 17th Street Canal are failing, which means the floodwaters will rise again.

Nagin said the waters will soon overwhelm the pump, shutting it down. He said the water will rise to 3 feet above sea level – or 12-15 feet in some places of east Jefferson and Orleans parishes.

The additional flooding causes 80% of the city to be underwater.

At 8:10 PM, TP reports that more than 24 hours after it started, looting is now city wide.

“People are leaving the Superdome to go to Canal Street to loot,” Thomas said. “Some people broke into drug stores and stole the drugs off the shelves. It is looting times five. I’m telling you, it’s like Sodom and Gomorrah.”

At 8:55 TP reports that the Army Corps of Engineers is working frantically to try and fix the breach in the 17th street levee.

Mark Lambert, chief spokesman for the agency, said that a convoy of trucks carrying 108 15,000-pound concrete barriers – like those used as highway construction dividers—was en route to the site Tuesday night

At 9:02 PM TP reports that the State Attorney General’s office is denying that martial law has been declared.

At 10:40 PM TP reports that 40 additional state troopers have been deployed more than 28 hours after initial reports of looting.

At 10:15 PM, Governor Blanco releases a statement calling for the evacuation of the Superdome.

She set no timetable for the withdrawal but insisted that the facility was damaged, degrading and no longer able to support the local citizens who had sought refuge in the Dome from Hurricane Katrina.

“It’s a very, very desperate situation,” Blanco said late Tuesday after returning to the capital from her visit, when she comforted the exhausted throngs of people, many of whom checked in over the weekend. “It’s imperative that we get them out. The situation is degenerating rapidly.”

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 31

Morning

Governor Blanco called for a total evacuation of the city of New Orleans.

In an interview on Good Morning America, the Governor said “We’ve sent buses in. We will be either loading them by boat, helicopter, anything that is necessary.”

When asked about looting the Governor said “We don’t like looters one bit, but first and foremost is search and rescue.”

Blanco said she wanted the Superdome — which had become a shelter of last resort for about 20,000 people — evacuated within two days, along with other gathering points for storm refugees. The situation inside the dank and sweltering Superdome was becoming desperate: The water was rising, the air conditioning was out, toilets were broken, and tempers were rising.

Governor Blanco asks the President to send federal troops to conduct law enforcement activities.

At 10:00 AM TP reports that a spokesperson for the Texas Governors office says refugees from the Superdome will be put up in the Astrodome:

FEMA is providing 475 buses for the convoy and the Astrodome’s schedule has been cleared through December for housing evacuees, a spokeswoman for Texas Gov. Rick Perry said.

A spokseman for Homeland Security:

Mark Smith, a Department of Homeland Security spokesman, said 3,000 Louisiana National Guard members are helping with the rescue effort and that more guard troops are on their way from other states. The main focus Wednesday morning is to evacuate patients from hospitals and to evacuate the Superdome, where conditions are deteriorating for the estimated 15,000 people sheltered there.

Yahoo News:

Gov. Kathleen Blanco said she has asked the White House to send more people to help with evacuations and rescues, thereby freeing up National Guardsmen to stop looters.

“We will restore law and order,” Blanco said. “What angers me the most is that disasters like this often bring out the worst in people. I will not tolerate this kind of behavior.”

Afternoon

Governor Blanco announces that Superdome evacuation will begin Wednesday evening.

Department of Social Services Secretary Ann Williamson said the buses should start rolling later Wednesday. About 475 vehicles have been arranged to ferry the evacuees to Houston.

State officials said they hope that bringing in the Army to help with search, rescue and relief efforts will allow National Guard troops to redirect their efforts to restoring order and curtail the widespread looting taking place in New Orleans and elsewhere. “We’re trying to shift our resources,” said Denise Bottcher, a Blanco spokeswoman.

“This is one of the largest, if not the largest evacuations in this country,” said Col. Jeff Smith, deputy director of the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.

“This (plan) buys us some time so we can figure things out,” said FEMA spokesman Bill Lokey.

At 1:40 PM State Secrertary of Transportation and Development Johnny Bradberry said Lake Pontchatrain has receded by two feet since yesterday as water levels equalized between the lake and the flooded city interior.

“The good news here is that we’ve stabilized. Water is not rising in the city,” Bradberry said.

The feds declare a Public Health Emergency:

HHS Secretary Mike Leavitt Wednesday declared a federal public health emergency and accelerated efforts to create up to 40 emergency medical shelters to provide care for evacuees and victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Working with its federal partners, HHS is helping provide and staff 250 beds in each shelter for a total of 10,000 beds for the region. Ten of these facilities will be staged within the next 72 hours and another 10 will be deployed within the next 100 hours after that. In addition, HHS is deploying up to 4,000 medically-qualified personnel to staff these facilities and to meet other health care needs in this region.

Governor Blanco issues an Executive Order allowing the National Guard to seize school busses in order to help in the evacuation:

National Guard spokesman Lt. Col. Pete Schneider, said the order, signed by Gov. Kathleen Blanco late Wednesday, means “we are going to take the buses. We need to get people out of New Orleans.. . . .Either they will give them up or we will take them.’’

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 1

Morning

At 12:30 AM evacuees from the Superdome begin arriving in Houston.

Col. Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard said this morning that the evacuation of the rest of New Orleans was in full swing. At least 70 buses had picked up refugees from the Superdome, and officials were considering using trains and boats to ship people to safety.

At 4:15 AM TP reports that the Coast Guard says it has rescued 3,000 stranded victims from the city.

President Bush calls for “zero tolerance” for looters or price gougers in an interview with Diane Sawyer.

More snafus in attempts to fix the levee at 17th street:

Spokeswoman Cleo Allen of the state Department of Transportation and Development said the agency is coordinating with railroads and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to raise the Seabrook bridge, the Almonaster Ave. bridge and the Danziger Road bridge. Farther southwest, authorities are also trying to raise a bridge at Larose so that a barge loaded with relief supplies can get through Bayou Lafourche.

More National Guard troops on the way:

Lt. Col Pete Schneider of the Louisiana National Guard also said 7,500 guard soldiers from around the country are en route to Louisiana to complement the 3,000 from Louisiana who have been helping with search and rescue operations and security since Katrina struck on Monday.

President Bush agrees to have the federal government pick up the entire tab for relief efforts.

Afternoon

Governor Blanco announces at a press conference that there are less than 2400 people left at the Superdome.

The Defense Department announces the deployment of an additional 30,000 troops to the Gulf region.

State and Federal authorities begin the evacuations of Charity and University Hospitals. They are halted briefly when shots are fired at helicopters evacuating patients.

In an article on Thursday afternoon, Brian Thevenot of TP reports that officials are starting to get control of the city.

As military and humantarian efforts finally began to take hold, the anarchy that has consumed New Orleans over the past two days, making the city resemble a Third World war zone, had not fully subsided but authorities appeared to have amassed sufficient numbers to seize the upper hand.

Neighborhoods that had been populated by bands of wanderers and armed thieves looked nearly empty, save for police patrols that were non-existent a day earlier. In Uptown, the Central Business District and the French Quarter, substantially smaller crowds of refugees and potential looters found themselves surrounded by ever increasing numbers of National Guard troops and police officers.

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 2

State Rep. Karen Carter, D-New Orleans, made an urgent plea Friday morning for gasoline and buses to ferry victims to safety who have been stuck in New Orleans under deteriorating conditions since Hurricane Katrina struck the city four days ago.

“If you want to save a life get a bus down here,” said Carter, whose district includes the French Quarter. “I’m asking the American people to help save a wonderful American city.” Her voice cracking with emotion and her eyes bloodshot from fatigue and distress, Carter said pledges of money and other assistance are of secondary importance right now to the urgent need for transportation.

“Don’t give me your money. Don’t send me $10 million today. Give me buses and gas. Buses and gas. Buses and gas,” she said. “If you have to commandeer Greyhound, commandeer Greyhound. … If you donn’t get a bus, if we don’t get them out of there, they will die.”

Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, who is coordinating federal relief efforts on behalf of the National Guard, could not say when people can expect to be rescued. “If you’re human you’ve got to be affected by it, Blum said. “These people, their heartstrings are torn as are yours. (But) the magnitude of this problem is you cannot help everybody at the same time.”

The Coast Guard announced it has rescued more than 4,000 victims of the hurricane and flood.

Mayor Nagin explodes on live radio, railing against federal relief efforts. If you’ve come this far with me, all I ask is that you read his comments and compare them to what has been reported in this timeline previously.

“You know the reason why the looters got out of control?” Nagin said. “We have most of our resources saving people. They were stuck in attics, man, old ladies. You pull off the doggone ventilator and look down and they’re standing there in water up to their fricking neck.”

“I need reinforcements,” he said. “I need troops, man. I need 500 buses.”

The relief efforts made so far had been pathetically insufficient, Nagin said.

“They’re thinking small, man, and this is a major, MAJOR deal,” Nagin said. “God is looking down on this and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price. Every day that we delay, people are dying, and they’re dying by the hundreds, I’m willing to bet you.”

Rolling now, Nagin described distress calls he’d heard. Nagin mocked the efforts to block the 17th Street Canal breach.

“I flew over that thing yesterday and it was in the same shape it was in after the storm hit,” he said. “There is nothing happening there. They’re feeding the public a line of bull and they’re spinning and people are dying down here.” ---"
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-21-05 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
50. Design defect?!?!
Who built and designed them! Bechtel or cheapskating or contractor or what!
INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION!
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ladylibertee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. I saw this on CNN...I think the Army Corps of Engineers is investigating
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
53. A PBS NOW transcript
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcriptNOW135_full.html

-snip-

DANIEL ZWERDLING: The US Army took over the job in the late 1800s, and every time they thought they'd conquered nature, the Mississippi River proved them wrong. So the Army's Corps of Engineers built more walls, and they built them higher. It's been one of the biggest engineering projects in American history.

OLIVER HOUCK: The project was, from an engineering point of view, brilliant, brilliant. From an environmental standpoint, it was a disaster. And it was a disaster because all of that bed load, all of that material that had built south Louisiana for thousands of years, now was thrown away like a waste product into the deep Gulf. And Louisiana was poised like a patient in a hospital. It was put on a starvation diet. It wasn't killed it was just made weak and susceptible to attack. And in about the 1930's the attack came.

DANIEL ZWERDLING: That 'attack' … was the oil and gas boom. All the big companies flocked here. They carved thousands and thousands of canals through the wetland so they could get to the energy underneath.

Back then, hardly anybody realized the consequences. And the whole country got the benefits — the companies sold us energy and the Army kept homes in Louisiana dry. But Denise Reed says now we know the price: the wetlands are sinking into the Gulf:

-snip-

Here we see, LA has been a disaster in progress.

As CA is to earthquakes, unless new designs were built, it was going to happen.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Here is another threat - pipeline exposure to open water
DANIEL ZWERDLING: This is Port Fourchon. This is the command center that supports the huge oil and gas industry out in the Gulf of Mexico. Ted Falgout runs this complex for the state.

TED FALGOUT: There's no other place in this country that plays such a great role to this nation's oil and gas supply.

DANIEL ZWERDLING: But here's the problem: the industry pumps all that oil and gas through pipelines that are buried along this coast. The companies buried thousands of miles of pipelines, to keep them safe. But now that the land around them is disintegrating, the pipes are getting exposed in open water.

TED FALGOUT: You know, we have 20,000 miles of pipeline in coastal Louisiana that was not designed to be in the Gulf of Mexico. This business could wash away overnight. And that's a threat. Not only to us, but to everybody in this country.

DANIEL ZWERDLING: As you might have seen on the news, Hurricane Katrina battered Pt. Fourchon. The complex is operating again, but barely
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. They talked about a solution to LA problems
DANIEL ZWERDLING: Even back then they knew enough to argue that the nation, the federal government, needs to do something dramatic to try to rebuild this coastline. It's a remarkable coalition — bankers, scientists, Democrats, Republicans — and they're pushing an audacious plan. They said the government triggered the wetlands crisis when it tamed The Mississippi River, now they want to unleash the river to undo the damage.

You'll get a sense of what they wanted to do if you visit the project called Caernarvon. On the surface, it doesn't look like something that could help transform the region, but scientists say this steel and concrete structure is recreating the old Mississippi floods.

You push a few buttons and giant gates open under water. And huge amounts of river-water and sediment rush from the Mississippi onto the marsh on the other side.

Denise Reed took me out into that marsh three years ago to show how it was working: she says before the project began, this wetland was sick.

DENISE REED: You see how the vegetation out here, that green, that kind of creeping vegetation is gradually filling in this area. You look at those ponds over there in the distance. You see how the grass is gradually moving in from the edge and filling in.

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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. They didn't take the threat seriously enough........
State officials say they'll need hundreds of projects like Canaervon. They say realistically, its gonna take decades to rebuild any significant chunk of the wetlands. And they'll need at least $14 billion dollars. But the Bush administration has cut the funding by 90%.

Back In New Orleans, three years ago, officials knew they had to take urgent action to protect the city before a big storm hit. Again, a lot of it depended on Washington.

For instance, The Army Corps of Engineers asked the administration for $27 million to beef up hurricane protection around Lake Ponchartrain. The Bush administration slashed that request by over 80%. Congress restored a bit of it.

The Corps asked for $78 million dollars partly to help drain floodwater out of the city. New Orleans has an elaborate system of giant pumps, but those pumps were only designed to handle rainwater, not hurricane flooding from the lake. The Bush administration cut that request by more than half, Congress added back a bit.

No ones arguing now that this money would have saved New Orleans from Katrina. But it symbolizes the fact that this administration, and others before it, didn't take the threat seriously enough.

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
57. Levee breach causes called to task
Apparently, the evidence indicated that the levees were not "over-topped" by Katrina.

-snip-
"..
scientists and engineers at Louisiana State University's Hurricane Center have concluded that Katrina's surges did not come close to overtopping those barriers. That would make faulty design, inadequate construction or some combination of the two the likely reason why levees were breached."

This is going to make BIG differences in insurance considerations..

http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-uslv224437026sep22,0,2050952.story
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. I want to know why the breaches were not plugged quicker
Not to take anything away from your article. NPR/ATC covered this last night.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. Because BushCo withheld assistance on purpose
Even after Nagin asked them to send helicopters to drop sandbags on the levees BEFORE they broke, HS/FEMA decided to divert them to another mission.

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. yeah, the 'other mission' was to send the helis to a church...
so they evac'd a few xians and let NO flood. :grr:

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. Are you serious?
I missed that part - got a link?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. This was reported on 08-30-05
Nagin: Entire City Will Soon Be Underwater
Problems Escalate To 'Another Level'

POSTED: 10:02 pm CDT August 30, 2005

<snip>

He said the "bowl is now filling up" and the entire city will soon be underwater.

Nagin said the sandbagging was scheduled for midday, but the Blackhawk helicopters needed to help did not show up. He said the sandbags were ready and all the helicopter had to do was "show up." He said after his afternoon helicopter tour of the city, he was assured that officials had a plan and a timeline to drop the sandbags on the levee breach.

He said he was told that the helicopters may have been diverted to rescue about 1,000 people in a church, but he is still not sure who gave the order.

http://www.wdsu.com/weather/4917809/detail.html
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. Thanks - unbelievable (n/t)
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. "There's no way this should have exceeded the capacity."
So then...I believe we should seek out the truth.

Because the 'official' lie, er explanation simply doesn't stand muster. Oh, that's right... we're faith-based science now. It was god's will. :eyes:

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. Similar story on msnbc.com
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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #57
64. self delete
Edited on Thu Sep-22-05 07:23 AM by slaveplanet
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
73. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-22-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
71. Army Corps of Engineers' talking points are published on the web
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