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Khaotic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 11:01 AM
Original message
Mom fights for pledge exemption (pledge to USA is sacrilegious)
Rock Island Argus/Moline Dispatch, September 16, 2005
Mom fights for pledge exemption
By Kristina Gleeson, [email protected]

EAST MOLINE -- To stand or not to stand? That was the question.

Nicole Able is a mother of three students at Bowlesburg Elementary School in East Moline. The family is Jehovah's Witness, and pledging allegiance to anything other than God goes against their faith.

<SNIP>

"I want my children to be able to do what their conscience tells them," Ms. Able said. "It takes a lot of courage for a child to go against" their peers, she added. "When I was a kid I wanted to fit in, too."

Full Story: http://qconline.com/archives/qco/sections.cgi?prcss=display&id=257488

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who would have thunk it ... now the pledge isn't religious enough.

I can't argue with the freedom of not having to say the pledge. Whether you're an atheist or a bible thumper, if the pledge doesn't acurately reflect the way you feel then you should have the right not to say it.

I wonder if people had these questions when the pledge was first instituted?

I mean, these are kids, not recruits going into the service. Is there really a need to have our kids stand up and say a pledge. It's not like they're recovering facists that need to pledge daily not to redecend into facisism ... of course, we wouldn't set up such a pledge against facism since neocons embrace IT.

I say, just teach history ACURATELY and put more money into education and people will love their country, they fight for it, they'll die for it. Get rid of the lies, the spin, the corporate kiss asses, and people will embrace their country. A pledge ... who needs that when caring about fellow Americans speaks for itself. All the red, white, and blue paint in the world can't replace that.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. In 30 years of teaching
I've had dozens of JW kids who never stand for the pledge. No big deal to anyone. They also don't eat cupcakes other kids bring for parties, or participate in any sort of celebration.
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LeighAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Violation of the Laws of God
JWs were on the forefront of this fight, unlike Fundies they actually read the whole Bible, not just the parts that make them feel self-righteous.

Vowing devotion ("allegiance", etc) to an inanimate object (the flag)is straight-up idolatry and no Christian, Jew, or Muslim is supposed to be doing it. But looking patriotic is more important than pleasing God to a right-winger.
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lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. Leave it to a Witness.
I used to work at a company owned by Witnesses. After figuring this out and finding out that I was one of only 2 people at the company who weren't Witnesses I began to ask them about their faith. In theory they have a much better understanding and adherance to Jesus' teachings.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. To an extent, however they do have some views
that are completely unprogressive, such as teachings toward gays and women (especially rape), and about education.

I'm not JW bashing -- they were specifically persecuted by the Nazis. I've spent many hours talking with JWs I know about their teachings, so this isn't just from a Chic tract... even though I do love them.
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. Supreme Court case in the 40's involved Witnesses and the pledge.
Edited on Fri Sep-16-05 11:09 AM by MissMarple
The Witnesses won, No one can be made to say it or stand while it is being recited. And the Baptists USED to picky about prayers in school. They didn't approve of just anyone leading their children in prayer.
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whatever4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. Religion in schools, no, no one ever fights over religion, so pledge up!
It's so sad, isn't it? That people want religion in school, as if it's all good, and no one ever fights about it.

Religion may be all about peace, but the fights over religion are NOT, and it's such a farce for the religious right to push this issue.
Denies history, denies our everyday reality, on the news every day. They want this hatred in school too. It's not enough to see it on the streets, in the news, maybe even from the parents.

They, themselves, have no fear of persecution, they the majority in our nation, Christians of the kind that like prayer in school. Religious issues have been fought over throughout history, but still, they want to bring those fights into the schoolroom, our public school rooms where ANY kid ought to be able to get an education.

Not anymore.

Sad. With all the violence in schools anyway, they can't see that religious confrontations could So easily make it even worse. Add to the violence where there wasn't any before, just one more source of it. My good god why? Makes no sense. Gives them comfort...that their kids can give other kids the heebie-geebies every morning. For no reason at all. pray damnit, you believe in GOD or ELSE

I guess that's the American way.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. They want THEIR religion in school
only one religion can be right, and it must be theirs.

All others are pagans, heretics, or blasphemers.

This is why separation of church and state was initiated in the 18th century. Nations founght wars over points of religious doctrine
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whatever4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Yes
And even the more liberal of them think we MUST, simply MUST, admit to believing in something, some form of higher intelligence, some god-like entity or idea. It goes without saying, to them; we may not be godless.

I'm thinking, even I believe in spirituality, but even I don't want anyone or anyone's kid to think they have to.

They don't get it, those that want prayer and pray-like ceremonies in school, because I believe they think we HAVE to believe. That's the thing, they refuse to believe we even have the right to not "believe" in anything, anything AT ALL. That's where they get us. Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. We don't have it. You can pick any one you like, as long as there's a god involved. Better have a god in there somewhere. Sure. We aren't free from religious influences, and the majority feels free to bully. As they always have.

From that it easily followed that, if we have to admit to spirituality (of some kind) being a fact, they have their "in" for religion in schools. 'Cause it's good for the kids. Love. Peace. worship, well, you know, god needs to be loved and all...

"You believe in a God of some kind, right? RIGHT?? Oh, you'd damned well BETTER believe in something buddy, or you're just...unamerican. And you can leave. We want you to"

I've heard that stuff. I've been told that stuff.

Yup. That's the ticket. That's where they have us. Have to believe in something, and in that generalized atmosphere, we're all to admit that their Bible is a good enough representation for ALL that "must believe in something 's all about love, 's all about peace, you have to believe.

You HAVE to believe.

So, anymore, I believe a lot of my fellow Americans are self-serving assholes. I mean, what else is there to believe?
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. When they see only one true religion
then freedom of religion is the same as freedom from religion
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whatever4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Have to agree
Yes, I agree. Just like with Henry Ford, his first model cars were all black. He'd say, "You can have any color you want, as long as it's black"

You can believe anything you want...as long as it's Christian. Other minority religions, like Judaism or Muslim...barely tolerated and we still get to keep our cross.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. A pledge need never be given twice. If at any time in your life
you "pledged allegiance", then it isn't necessary to do so again. This isn't an innocent little ritual, it is part and parcel of how we came to be what we are - a country dumbed down and living in fear. Even the most idiotic flag-waving mouth-breather can figure out that the pledge means nothing as a binding statement of adherence. It is a means of brain-washing and is about as anti-American (in the classical sense) as anything I can think of. The pledge should be scrapped.
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Khaotic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. RAW STORY Picked Up This Story Via This Post
Feeling kind of cool right now.

Looks like this story, because of my post, has been picked up by RAW STORY.

Excellent!

I hope it really makes the rounds.

KICK!



Now it would be really cool if this is picked up and discussed on Air America and beyond.

I think the irony in the story is what makes it worthy of discussion.

To date it's been the non-religious that have taken the pledge to task, by and large, but no anymore.

The days of labeling Democrats, Progressives, and Liberals, as the people that don't applaud the pledge may be coming to an end.

Could an age be coming where it's the bible thumpers that question the pledge?

This article is the first I've seen where it could be the case.

Kick this one up!
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't need to say a pledge to prove my love for my country
Only insecure people need things like that.

As far as God in schools-no legislature, no law, no paper can really keep God out of anyplace He chooses to be. Students have the right to practice their religion. Teachers and administrators have the responsibility to ensure that one child's religious practices inside the school do not interfere with other children's religious rights or choice to not be involved in a religion. The school staff also have the responsibility not to inflict their personal religious beliefs on students in a way that violates the students rights.


Public School situations:
If a kid stands on the playground telling his fellow students they are going to hell if they don't ask Jesus in to their hearts, that is disruptive behavior that needs to be addressed. If a child continues, it needs to be disciplined. The parents should back the school, not scream "religious bigotry", because the child is being punished for being disruptive, not for being a christian. If a teacher tells a child he can't read his Bible during recess, or can't say grace quietly prior to eating lunch or snacks, then the teacher is violating the child's rights. If a group of high school students want to pray together prior to school or during lunch, they should be allowed to, and provided a space (like an empty classroom) to do so. If a teacher was to join them, that would be wrong,

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. It's rank nationalism, which is decidedly undemocratic n/t
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good! Now all we need is for South Carolina to petition against the
"indivisible" clause and we can throw this damn pledge in the garbage can of history.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Where my kids go to school they say the pledge,
then remain standing for the national anthem.

Is that common?
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athenap Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. our schools only do the Pledge
I think Pledge, Nat'l Anthem, morning announcements...all that takes up too much time.

TBH, if the pledge/silent meditation blahblah is anything like it was fifteen years ago, it's spoken by maybe the teacher, and two or three kids who like to hear the sounds of their own voices, and mumbled half-heartedly by the rest while composing notes to their friends, finishing homework, or putting on make-up their parents won't let them wear.

Maybe nowadays they're txtmsging each other and shuffling their iPods. :D
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. hehe nah
Gotta stand with your hand on your heart the whole time... and for the minute of silence afterward you have to remain standing as well.
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Danmel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. Do any other countries have Pledges of Allegiances ( or the equvalent)?
Edited on Fri Sep-16-05 01:30 PM by Danmel
It would be interesting to see if any other do if they are free countries or whether it is just more propaganda.


There were two flag salute cases decided by the Supreme Court- the first the "Gobitis" case was decided 8-1 against the Jehovah's Witness. Only 3 years later, the Court overturned that decision in West Virigina Board of Education v. Barnette, which I have copied below:

Mr. Justice Jackson delivered the opinion of the Court.

Following the decision by this Court on June 3, 1940, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis …, the West Virginia legislature amended its statutes to require all schools therein to conduct courses of instruction in history, civics, and in the Constitutions of the United States and of the State “for the purpose of teaching, fostering and perpetuating the ideals, principles and spirit of Americanism, and increasing the knowledge of the organization and machinery of the government.”…

The Board of Education on January 9, 1942, adopted a resolution containing recitals taken largely from the Court's Gobitis opinion and ordering that the salute to the flag become "a regular part of the program of activities in the public schools," that all teachers and pupils shall be required to participate in the salute honoring the Nation represented by the Flag; provided, however, that refusal to salute the Flag be regarded as an act of insubordination, and shall be dealt with accordingly.

The resolution originally required the "commonly accepted salute to the Flag," which it defined. Objections to the salute as "being too much like Hitler's" were raised by the Parent and Teachers Association, the Boy and Girl Scouts, the Red Cross, and the Federation of Women's Clubs. Some modification appears to have been made in deference to these objections, but no concession was made to Jehovah's Witnesses. What is now required is the "stiff-arm" salute, the saluter to keep the right hand raised with palm turned up while the following is repeated:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands; one Nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Failure to conform is "insubordination," dealt with by expulsion. Readmission is denied by statute until compliance. Meanwhile, the expelled child is "unlawfully absent," and may be proceeded against as a delinquent. His parents or guardians are liable to prosecution, and, if convicted, are subject to fine not exceeding $50 and Jail term not exceeding thirty days.

Appellees, citizens of the United States and of West Virginia, brought suit in the United States District Court for themselves and others similarly situated asking its injunction to restrain enforcement of these laws and regulations against Jehovah's Witnesses. The Witnesses are an unincorporated body teaching that the obligation imposed by law of God is superior to that of laws enacted by temporal government. Their religious beliefs include a literal version of Exodus, Chapter 20, verses 4 and 5, which says:

“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them.”

They consider that the flag is an "image" within this command. For this reason, they refuse to salute it.

Children of this faith have been expelled from school and are threatened with exclusion for no other cause. Officials threaten to send them to reformatories maintained for criminally inclined juveniles. Parents of such children have been prosecuted, and are threatened with prosecutions for causing delinquency.

The Board of Education moved to dismiss the complaint, setting forth these facts and alleging that the law and regulations are an unconstitutional denial of religious freedom, and of freedom of speech, and are invalid under the "due process" and "equal protection" clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Federal Constitution. The cause was submitted on the pleadings to a District Court of three judges. It restrained enforcement as to the plaintiffs and those of that class. The Board of Education brought the case here by direct appeal.

This case calls upon us to reconsider a precedent decision, as the Court, throughout its history, often has been required to do. Before turning to the Gobitis case, however, it is desirable to notice certain characteristics by which this controversy is distinguished.…

As the present Chief Justice said in dissent in the Gobitis case, the State may

“require teaching by instruction and study of all in our history and in the structure and organization of our government, including the guaranties of civil liberty, which tend to inspire patriotism and love of country.”

…Here, however, we are dealing with a compulsion of students to declare a belief. They are not merely made acquainted with the flag salute so that they may be informed as to what it is or even what it means. The issue here is whether this slow and easily neglected route to aroused loyalties constitutionally may be short-cut by substituting a compulsory salute and slogan.…

There is no doubt that, in connection with the pledges, the flag salute is a form of utterance. Symbolism is a primitive but effective way of communicating ideas. The use of an emblem or flag to symbolize some system, idea, institution, or personality is a short-cut from mind to mind. Causes and nations, political parties, lodges, and ecclesiastical groups seek to knit the loyalty of their followings to a flag or banner, a color or design. The State announces rank, function, and authority through crowns and maces, uniforms and black robes; the church speaks through the Cross, the Crucifix, the altar and shrine, and clerical raiment. Symbols of State often convey political ideas, just as religious symbols come to convey theological ones. Associated with many of these symbols are appropriate gestures of acceptance or respect: a salute, a bowed or bared head, a bended knee. A person gets from a symbol the meaning he puts into it, and what is one man's comfort and inspiration is another's jest and scorn.…

It is also to be noted that the compulsory flag salute and pledge requires affirmation of a belief and an attitude of mind. It is not clear whether the regulation contemplates that pupils forego any contrary convictions of their own and become unwilling converts to the prescribed ceremony, or whether it will be acceptable if they simulate assent by words without belief, and by a gesture barren of meaning. It is now a commonplace that censorship or suppression of expression of opinion is tolerated by our Constitution only when the expression presents a clear and present danger of action of a kind the State is empowered to prevent and punish. It would seem that involuntary affirmation could be commanded only on even more immediate and urgent grounds than silence. But here, the power of compulsion is invoked without any allegation that remaining passive during a flag salute ritual creates a clear and present danger that would justify an effort even to muffle expression. To sustain the compulsory flag salute, we are required to say that a Bill of Rights which guards the individual's right to speak his own mind left it open to public authorities to compel him to utter what is not in his mind.

Whether the First Amendment to the Constitution will permit officials to order observance of ritual of this nature does not depend upon whether as a voluntary exercise we would think it to be good, bad or merely innocuous. Any credo of nationalism is likely to include what some disapprove or to omit what others think essential, and to give off different overtones as it takes on different accents or interpretations. If official power exists to coerce acceptance of any patriotic creed, what it shall contain cannot be decided by courts, but must be largely discretionary with the ordaining authority, whose power to prescribe would no doubt include power to amend. Hence, validity of the asserted power to force an American citizen publicly to profess any statement of belief, or to engage in any ceremony of assent to one, presents questions of power that must be considered independently of any idea we may have as to the utility of the ceremony in question.

Nor does the issue, as we see it, turn on one's possession of particular religious views or the sincerity with which they are held.…

We think these issues may be examined free of pressure or restraint growing out of such considerations.

It may be doubted whether Mr. Lincoln would have thought that the strength of government to maintain itself would be impressively vindicated by our confirming power of the State to expel a handful of children from school. Such oversimplification, so handy in political debate, often lacks the precision necessary to postulates of judicial reasoning. If validly applied to this problem, the utterance cited would resolve every issue of power in favor of those in authority, and would require us to override every liberty thought to weaken or delay execution of their policies.

Government of limited power need not be anemic government. Assurance that rights are secure tends to diminish fear and jealousy of strong government, and, by making us feel safe to live under it, makes for its better support. Without promise of a limiting Bill of Rights, it is doubtful if our Constitution could have mustered enough strength to enable its ratification. To enforce those rights today is not to choose weak government over strong government. It is only to adhere as a means of strength to individual freedom of mind in preference to officially disciplined uniformity for which history indicates a disappointing and disastrous end.

The subject now before us exemplifies this principle. Free public education, if faithful to the ideal of secular instruction and political neutrality, will not be partisan or enemy of any class, creed, party, or faction. If it is to impose any ideological discipline, however, each party or denomination must seek to control, or, failing that, to weaken, the influence of the educational system. Observance of the limitations of the Constitution will not weaken government in the field appropriate for its exercise.

2. It was also considered in the Gobitis case that functions of educational officers in States, counties and school districts were such that to interfere with their authority "would in effect make us the school board for the country."…

The Fourteenth Amendment, as now applied to the States, protects the citizen against the State itself and all of its creatures—Boards of Education not excepted. These have, of course, important, delicate, and highly discretionary functions, but none that they may not perform within the limits of the Bill of Rights. That they are educating the young for citizenship is reason for scrupulous protection of Constitutional freedoms of the individual, if we are not to strangle the free mind at its source and teach youth to discount important principles of our government as mere platitudes.

Such Boards are numerous, and their territorial jurisdiction often small. But small and local authority may feel less sense of responsibility to the Constitution, and agencies of publicity may be less vigilant in calling it to account. The action of Congress in making flag observance voluntary and respecting the conscience of the objector in a matter so vital as raising the Army contrasts sharply with these local regulations in matters relatively trivial to the welfare of the nation. There are village tyrants, as well as village Hampdens, but none who acts under color of law is beyond reach of the Constitution.

3. The Gobitis opinion reasoned that this is a field "where courts possess no marked, and certainly no controlling, competence," that it is committed to the legislatures, as well as the courts, to guard cherished liberties, and that it is constitutionally appropriate to fight out the wise use of legislative authority in the forum of public opinion and before legislative assemblies, rather than to transfer such a contest to the judicial arena, since all the "effective means of inducing political changes are left free."…

The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials, and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.

In weighing arguments of the parties, it is important to distinguish between the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as an instrument for transmitting the principles of the First Amendment and those cases in which it is applied for its own sake. The test of legislation which collides with the Fourteenth Amendment, because it also collides with the principles of the First, is much more definite than the test when only the Fourteenth is involved. Much of the vagueness of the due process clause disappears when the specific prohibitions of the First become its standard. The right of a State to regulate, for example, a public utility may well include, so far as the due process test is concerned, power to impose all of the restrictions which a legislature may have a "rational basis" for adopting. But freedoms of speech and of press, of assembly, and of worship may not be infringed on such slender grounds. They are susceptible of restriction only to prevent grave and immediate danger to interests which the State may lawfully protect. It is important to note that, while it is the Fourteenth Amendment which bears directly upon the State, it is the more specific limiting principles of the First Amendment that finally govern this case.

Nor does our duty to apply the Bill of Rights to assertions of official authority depend upon our possession of marked competence in the field where the invasion of rights occurs. True, the task of translating the majestic generalities of the Bill of Rights, conceived as part of the pattern of liberal government in the eighteenth century, into concrete restraints on officials dealing with the problems of the twentieth century, is one to disturb self-confidence. These principles grew in soil which also produced a philosophy that the individual was the center of society, that his liberty was attainable through mere absence of governmental restraints, and that government should be entrusted with few controls, and only the mildest supervision over men's affairs. We must transplant these rights to a soil in which the laissez-faire concept or principle of noninterference has withered, at least as to economic affairs, and social advancements are increasingly sought through closer integration of society and through expanded and strengthened governmental controls. These changed conditions often deprive precedents of reliability, and cast us more than we would choose upon our own judgment. But we act in these matters not by authority of our competence, but by force of our commissions. We cannot, because of modest estimates of our competence in such specialties as public education, withhold the judgment that history authenticates as the function of this Court when liberty is infringed.

4. Lastly, and this is the very heart of the Gobitis opinion, it reasons that "National unity is the basis of national security," that the authorities have "the right to select appropriate means for its attainment," and hence reaches the conclusion that such compulsory measures toward "national unity" are constitutional.… Upon the verity of this assumption depends our answer in this case.

National unity, as an end which officials may foster by persuasion and example, is not in question. The problem is whether, under our Constitution, compulsion as here employed is a permissible means for its achievement.

Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good, as well as by evil, men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon, but, at other times and places, the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an ever-increasing severity. As governmental pressure toward unity becomes greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be. Probably no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

It seems trite but necessary to say that the First Amendment to our Constitution was designed to avoid these ends by avoiding these beginnings. There is no mysticism in the American concept of the State or of the nature or origin of its authority. We set up government by consent of the governed, and the Bill of Rights denies those in power any legal opportunity to coerce that consent. Authority here is to be controlled by public opinion, not public opinion by authority.

The case is made difficult not because the principles of its decision are obscure, but because the flag involved is our own. Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous, instead of a compulsory routine, is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds. We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes. When they are so harmless to others or to the State as those we deal with here, the price is not too great. But freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power, and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

The decision of this Court in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, and the holdings of those few per curiam decisions which preceded and foreshadowed it, are overruled, and the judgment enjoining enforcement of the West Virginia Regulation is

Affirmed

Mr. Justice Frankfurter, dissenting:

One who belongs to the most vilified and persecuted minority in history is not likely to be insensible to the freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution. Were my purely personal attitude relevant, I should wholeheartedly associate myself with the general libertarian views in the Court's opinion, representing, as they do, the thought and action of a lifetime. But, as judges, we are neither Jew nor Gentile, neither Catholic nor agnostic. We owe equal attachment to the Constitution, and are equally bound by our judicial obligations whether we derive our citizenship from the earliest or the latest immigrants to these shores. As a member of this Court, I am not justified in writing my private notions of policy into the Constitution, no matter how deeply I may cherish them or how mischievous I may deem their disregard. The duty of a judge who must decide which of two claims before the Court shall prevail, that of a State to enact and enforce laws within its general competence or that of an individual to refuse obedience because of the demands of his conscience, is not that of the ordinary person. It can never be emphasized too much that one's own opinion about the wisdom or evil of a law should be excluded altogether when one is doing one's duty on the bench. The only opinion of our own even looking in that direction that is material is our opinion whether legislators could, in reason, have enacted such a law. In the light of all the circumstances, including the history of this question in this Court, it would require more daring than I possess to deny that reasonable legislators could have taken the action which is before us for review. Most unwillingly, therefore, I must differ from my brethren with regard to legislation like this. I cannot bring my mind to believe that the "liberty" secured by the Due Process Clause gives this Court authority to deny to the State of West Virginia the attainment of that which we all recognize as a legitimate legislative end, namely, the promotion of good citizenship, by employment of the means here chosen.…

We are not reviewing merely the action of a local school board.… Practically, we are passing upon the political power of each of the forty-eight states. Moreover, since the First Amendment has been read into the Fourteenth, our problem is precisely the same as it would be if we had before us an Act of Congress for the District of Columbia. To suggest that we are here concerned with the heedless action of some village tyrants is to distort the augustness of the constitutional issue and the reach of the consequences of our decision.

Under our constitutional system, the legislature is charged solely with civil concerns of society. If the avowed or intrinsic legislative purpose is either to promote or to discourage some religious community or creed, it is clearly within the constitutional restrictions imposed on legislatures, and cannot stand. But it by no means follows that legislative power is wanting whenever a general nondiscriminatory civil regulation, in fact, touches conscientious scruples or religious beliefs of an individual or a group. Regard for such scruples or beliefs undoubtedly presents one of the most reasonable claims for the exertion of legislative accommodation. It is, of course, beyond our power to rewrite the State's requirement by providing exemptions for those who do not wish to participate in the flag salute or by making some other accommodations to meet their scruples. That wisdom might suggest the making of such accommodations, and that school administration would not find it too difficult to make them, and yet maintain the ceremony for those not refusing to conform, is outside our province to suggest. Tact, respect, and generosity toward variant views will always commend themselves to those charged with the duties of legislation so as to achieve a maximum of good will and to require a minimum of unwilling submission to a general law. But the real question is, who is to make such accommodations, the courts or the legislature?…

© 2005 Faith and Freedom Network.
All Rights Reserved


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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. More mainstream objections
Jesus clearly states oaths to God should not be taken.

Children should not be coerced into taking oaths or making pledges.

The pledge is to a symbol of "liberty and justice for all". Since the latter is never perfect(understatement) and the flag is a material symbol it might be more to the point to maybe have a secular prayer or statement of a citizen's duty to the nation's highest ideals. So long as it is about something waving in the sky and an unrealized ideal, it is something to work for, not assume we have simply because we have something on the mast.

Amazing when ones thinks about what is actually being done and said by the captive students of America instead of the noble and cute emotions that enslave parents sentimentally to a fabricated tradition(instead of the mature social goals of freedom, democracy and civil rights).

Alternative recitations.
The immigrant's oath of allegiance(which is too serious for kids anyway, so what does that say? Are children daily renewing something they were born into without choice?)
The Declaration of Independence.
The duty of an American citizen is to....
What we fought for...
The world we want to build will be...
America is and America should be....
The better idea always was songs which accompanied some of the more ornate ceremonies. (Suggest "This land is my land" and less pompous less 19th Century anachronisms if you want sheer emotional nationalism).

God will be more than happy for actions not sentimental allegiance pledges if He exists. The pledge is an exception to Biblical christian directives. the world and the Church are not the same and in fact in Jesus' time HE was advocating a fairly clear separation. In fact too, sentimental political grandstanding got this started as an offshoot of hatred(against godless Communism). It's roots are not healthy or well thought out. The effects on children are dubious at best, blindly nationalistic(when drained of all knowledge except we are worshiping an emotional symbol and vague myths) at worst.

Ironically the pledge is devoid of religious meaning to people who don't believe but who show character by taking an honest stand against dishonesty, but an offense against Christian doctrine in its present form forced on young minds. Which latter is wrongly considered virtuous. The mainstream Churches are too chicken even to THINK this out much less pose the question. The separation of Church and state works both ways and churches should contemplate long and hard how they have dragged(by emotional traps and power trips) into the debasing world of politics and the abuse of the faith.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. If I'm not mistaken
I think that at least some of the schools in Texas make the kids say a pledge of allegiance to the Texas flag, too. Now if that's not carrying things too far...
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. Fascinating!
An interesting twist on the defensible position that "under God" is unpatriotic.
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Danmel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
23. Who is indivisible, God or the One Nation???
The pledge reads "One nation, Under God, Indivisible" Who is indivisible, God or the nation?? Of course the original pledge was written after the Civil War and said One Nation indivisible, with no mention of God at all.

But....wouldn't Catholics and some other Christians perhaps be offended by the notion of an indivisible God? Isn't God the Triune God, the three part Trinity of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit or Ghost?

I have a friend who is a very devout Catholic (I'm Jewish) and one day when I was at her house I read a little tract she had on her fridge. It read in part "I believe in the Triune God" I had no idea what that meant so I asked her and she told me that it meant that God was divided into three parts representing the Trinity- The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. So how can a Catholic schoolchild be forced to recite., "One Nation Under God Indivisible???????


Ah the perils of bad grammar!
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. The word refers to the nation (nt).
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Khaotic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-16-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. Is this worthy to keep kicked?
kick?
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