London police maintain "shoot-to-kill" policy

[maddezmom]

LONDON (Reuters) - London's police force has reviewed its controversial "shoot-to-kill" policy and left it largely unchanged despite the killing of a Brazilian mistaken for a would-be suicide bomber, Scotland Yard said on Saturday.

"We have reviewed it and we have made one or two small changes, but the operation remains essentially the same," a Metropolitan police spokeswoman told Reuters.

The spokeswoman declined to detail the changes, but London police chief Ian Blair said officers would continue to use deadly force to stop possible terror attacks.

"The methods that were used appeared to be the least worst option (for tackling suicide bombers) ... we still have the procedure in use," he told the Daily Mail.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050820/ts_nm/security_britain_police_dc;_

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. If I had brown skin

and dark hair, I think I'd be very very worried about this development.

[Karenina]

2. I do and I am...

[alarcojon]

16. Seconded

Male, black hair, brown skin, full beard and mustache, Latino

[AX10]

29. Same here. The Metro "police" are basically racist PIGS if this is...

their choice to just shoot 'supspicious' looking people with a certain skin color. Anything darker than a shade of David Duke makes you a target in the Anglo World.

[fortyfeetunder]

4. Well that theory on skin color will go down the tubes

As soon as the terrorists can recruit some blonde, blue-eyed, Euro types to do their work.

[alarcojon]

17. I don't think so

I think if/when that happens, they will actually start doing their job instead of profiling people like me.

Has the McVeigh case caused many people to look at white males with greater suspicion?

[Solly Mack]

3. Why do those in error entrench themselves even more?

Can't they just put the fucking shovel down and stop digging already?

[slackmaster]

11. Agreed - Among US police the policy is shoot to stop

That's also the attitude that gets taught in pretty much all civilian training programs for use of weapons - If you must apply deadly force the reason you are doing so is to make a person stop doing whatever behavior constitutes a threat to yourself or other innocent people.

Firearms instructors teach you to shoot only when there is no reasonable alternative. When you do shoot, you shoot for the center of mass and keep shooting until the threat ends, THEN YOU STOP SHOOTING. That is true for both police and civilian classes. You are not administring punishment. You are not the judge, jury, and executioner. You are protecting yourself and others. If the person you shoot happens to die, that's an unfortunate consequence but it was not your purpose in shooting. Self-defense instructors teach you not to revel in a killing. You will probably pay dire consequences even if a shooting was justified. At the very least you have to live with what you have done.

This is the upside of the US's mature and entrenched "gun culture". I think British people, police included, are somewhat naive about use of deadly force. On edit, I fully expect some people to take offense at that statement. Flame away. I'm off the board and shutting down my computer for maintenance until Monday.

[Swamp Rat]

5. Vai se foder! ... I'll never go London, where police murder brown people

as a rule. Vai levar no cú Baba-Ovo Pirilou Tony! Mete o dedo no cú e roda! :mad:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. Yes.

Lord knows police in the US never murder brown people.

[Swamp Rat]

8. Are you trying to start an argument?

Seems like it to me.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

10. You've got to be kidding.

1) I'll never go to London.

Fair enough. You're not missing as much as you probably think you are, unless you're a huge fan of deep-fried Mars bars.

2) Where the police murder brown people.

Well, yes, let's tar the entire Metropolitan Police force with this brush as they are both obviously racist and murderers.

And as for murdering brown people, I seem to recall only one murder, not many. And given what's happened, I'd be damned surprised to see another one. Those officers' careers are OVER, plain and simple. They did a terrible thing, and they're going to pay for it. The point I was making is that you're every bit as unsafe in any major American city (and quite a few small ones) as you are in London.

[Swamp Rat]

12. Well, you started off with a straw man about murders in America,

so I figured you wanted to pick a fight with me. Maybe I am just too tired right now... and yes, I have lived in the murder capital of the USA, so I have seen death just a few meters in front of my nose, like you'd see in Rio de Janeiro, Brasil.

Listen, some London cops MUDERED one of MY people IN COLD BLOOD because he was BROWN, and I'm really fucking pissed. Is that OK with you?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. It's perfectly fine to be furious about this.

On the other hand, this type of hyperbole does no good for anyone, just as the hyperbolic genocide talk in your sig is not doing any good.

[AX10]

30. But the London police tarred themselves with the tag.

That's a FACT!

[AX10]

32. I'm not 'brown' but am well tanned. Being an ethno could get me...

beaten up badly or murdered. I'm pissed as hell too. London "Police" are war criminals for this.

[LisaL]

15. Careers? Is that enough? If I kill someone by mistake, would that

mean my career is over, or would I go to prison for it? Do you think "but I thought he was someone else" defense will fly?

[alarcojon]

18. Great fucking point!

So many people instinctively feel that if the cops are fired, that is enough. What about some hard time in prison in addition?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. In this case, that's not unlikely. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

25. oh really?

Do some more research.

[alarcojon]

28. I hope you're right

and if you have any resources that back up your point, I would appreciate seeing them.

[AX10]

33. When police blatently break the law/disobey the rules, they should...

do jail time just like everyone else. Sadly, that's not always the case because DAS Police Unions will come to their defense and lobby for 'laws' that would protect police who commit criminal acts.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Well, I suppose that depends...

Do you suggest that every soldier in Iraq who ever killed a civilian should be sent to jail for life or executed?

[Warren Stupidity]

23. actually if they did so deliberately that would be required.

Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime according to treaties that we are constitutionally obliged to obey.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Unfortunately...

...we are now living in a society that doesn't know what the meaning of the word "deliberately" is. I highly doubt that the Met police deliberately set out to execute an unarmed civilian with no connection to terrorism.

On the other hand, the different rules governing the behaviour of armies and law enforcement officers are becoming blurred, and this should be of concern to all people.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. The metro police

Did not "deliberately set out to execute an unarmed civilian with no connection to terrorism". They did "deliberately set out to execute a civilian suspected to have a connection to terrorism".

Do you find the latter acceptible?

[AX10]

31. True. Then the Metro "police" would be war criminals!

.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. without warning without any justification?

Not often. And when it does happen, usually our police departments don't announce that the policy to kill intentionally and without warning will remain in place until further notice. Usually the officer involved has not acted under explicit orders and as per explicit policy, so the officer involved is generally in a whole mess of trouble. But somehow I think you knew that.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. So, not to grind this point to a blunt stub...

but to all you defenders of the indefensible, you apologists for whatever form of government we now have, which is certainly not a liberal democracy, are you still with the program?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. Announcing their next target

a preggers Chinese woman who is accused of carrying a bomb, not a fetus and who did not understand the english commands screamed at her.


Every single fact they reported was wrong. Every single one. Yet, they follow the Bush doctrine, if a policy is failing, do more of the same.

crazy.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. just because I have an allergy to this topic

No orders were screamed, spoken, or whispered at de Menezes. The tactics that remain in place execute the victim without warning, after all the victim could be a suicide bomber.

[AX10]

35. Basically, ther're 'pigs'. Not a nice term but they asked for it...

when they shot someone based upon their skin color. Though I am not suprised that this happened in England.

[Puzzler]

13. Well, instead of "shoot to kill" how about "Operation Subway Freedom"?

The only possible positive spin I can put on this (if any positive spin can be put on it at all)... is at least the British police are using strong concise (if not ugly) language.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not in any way defending the actions of the London police. I'm just talking about the use of language.


-P

[LisaL]

14. Of course they should continue it. Their success rate with it

speaks for itself. Anybody can be a terrorist, you know.
:sarcasm:

[Gyre]

34. Glad to know we're not alone

in a logrithmic slide towards totalitarianism.:( BTW, this was an EXECUTION, since the suspect was already down when they pumped their bullets into him. THAT is particularly effed up.

Gyre

[sintax]

36. London Police Continue Deadly Force Policy

London Police Continue Deadly Force Policy

Saturday August 20, 2005 11:01 PM

By THOMAS WAGNER

Associated Press Writer

LONDON (AP) - London police said Saturday they made only minor changes to their directive on the use of deadly force after killing an innocent man mistaken for a terrorist, and they also denied a published report that they offered $1 million to the victim's family.

``There has been a review. The police have reviewed the strategy and we have made one or two small changes, but the operation remains essentially the same,'' said a police spokeswoman, who declined to give her name because of police policy.

She also would not discuss details of the changes in Operation Kratos, the force's name for what British media call a ``shoot-to-kill'' policy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5223120,00.html

[Kagemusha]

37. Of course they didn't offer money.

I bet under their rules they owe absolutely nothing.