Senate Backs Scouts' Use of Military Bases

[Rose Siding]

WASHINGTON - The Senate voted Tuesday to allow U.S. military bases to continue to host Boy Scouts events, responding to lawsuits and a federal court ruling aimed at severing relationships between the government and the youth group.
...
In a 98-0 vote, the Senate approved the provision continuing the hosting of Boy Scout events as part of massive bill setting Defense Department policy for next year.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., a former Boy Scout who sponsored the Senate provision, said it is necessary to push back on a spate of lawsuits to limit Boy Scout activities on government property. The provision adopted Tuesday says Boy Scouts should be treated the same as other national youth organizations
...
In 1999, the ACLU of Illinois filed a lawsuit claiming the Pentagon's sponsorship of such Boy Scout activities violates the First Amendment. The ACLU argues that direct government sponsorship of the group amounts to discrimination.

Civil liberties advocates have assailed the Boy Scouts organization because it bans openly gay leaders and compels members to swear an oath of duty to God.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050726/ap...

[Squatch]

1. Good.

The military is a valuable sponsor of Scouting activities.

[msongs]

13. yep. turn those little boys into killers ASAP .

[Squatch]

16. More hyperbole. I'm a former Boy Scout.

Haven't killed anyone, to my knowledge.

[greekspeak]

17. I am a former boy scout too. Some scary stuff there.

Being trotted off to the woods for "secret ceremonies." Fear of some of the adults "liking us little boys." Marching around a camp in military like uniforms, hoisting and taking the flag down in military-like ceremonies. Demands for strict obedience. Shaming of the weaker members, both from boys and leaders. Older boys beating up on younger boys. AND coerced religious behavior. This is my experience in the BSA. But forbid that someone be GAY. Oh No. Let them onto a military base and force everyone to pray to the Christian God. Lovely role model to set.

[saigon68]

39. Kind of like this Eh?

"It is our wish and will that this State and this Reich shall endure in the millenniums to come. We can be happy in the knowledge that this future belongs to us completely. (applause) While the older generation could still waver, the younger generation has pledged itself to us and is ours, body and soul!"

Hitler speaks to Youth Rally

[pelagius]

45. Astonishingly ill-informed and unhelpful analogy

Not only is the "Boy Scouts = Hitler Youth" comparison hateful, it is extremely ill-informed.

Boy Scouts have been consistently banned in totalitarian countries and often replaced with a state-controlled youth movement, including in Hitlers Germany. Boy Scouts existed in Germany before Hitler Youth and were banned by the Nazis. The Nazis thought Boy Scouting was antithetical to their program.

Why? Because, in my opinion, the basic values of Scouting are the basic values of liberal democracy. Fascism requires servility and fear; the Scouting program is designed develop self-confidence and moral integrity.

I don't support the current BSA ban on gay and/or atheist leaders and, frankly, consider it an aberrant sideshow that distracts from the BSA's primary mission of serving young men and their families. I am deeply unhappy with National's stance, but still feel the good in Scouting greatly outweighs the bad.

[greekspeak]

53. Don't know what troop you were in but there were some fascist wannabees

leading and participating where I lived. Weekend warrior types mostly. Keep in mind that Rush was barely a peep in the microphone then, no promisekeepers, Reagan and early G H W Bush years. Some just went to far in their fervor to make "men" out of 12-17 year old boys.

[pelagius]

65. I don't doubt that at all.

It's a huge logical leap from that observation to calling the whole organization a pack of Nazis.

[greekspeak]

52. Yeah...some of the leaders were like that and some of the boys

Some of the strangest people I ever met were in Boy Scouts with me. At the school where I went to high school, and my junior high, there was nothing more socially demeaning than boy scouts. So, pretty much the dregs of the school were scouts, or people whose parents made them be scouts, or else people that were super outdoorsy types. People in the first two groups just sort of did their own thing. The third group were the ones who were all serious about scouting. I was in group one. The social dregs of the school, and also in group two, because my dad made me be in scouts from 5th-10th grades.

I had a leader once that demanded we say the pledge like this: ONENATIONUNDERGOD indvisible with liberty and justice for all. If we seperated that NATION and GOD stuff with a pause, as we had been taught since day one of kindygarten, we would get yelled at. This was in the late 80's. I can only imagine how insane this guy is now.

[Jara sang]

2. Boy Scouts is a paramilitary organization.

[DFWdem]

15. Hahahahaha!

You can't be serious. I was a boy scout for a short while in my youth and the closest we ever came to paramilitary activities was camping and learning to use a map and compass.

[LostinVA]

22. Jara Sang is right -- it was founded and meant to be

A paramilitary organization. Some troops take this very seriously. My nephew was in such a troop -- it was literally THIS close to being a melding of the Hitler Youth and Boot Camp. When my nephew finally told my sister, she freaked out, pulled him out. This was on a US Army base in Germany. The leader was ex-military and the husband of an Army officer, who was crazed. Of course, the guy was allowed to still be leader. But he wasn't gay, and that's all that counted!

A friends' son in MD was in a Cub Scout troop like this, too.

[pelagius]

27. The Boy Scouts were founded, in part, because...

...Robert Baden-Powell discovered that boys were joining groups that were paramilitary -- such as the Boys' Brigade -- whose primary activity was parade drills, often with rifles! B-P, himself a former military man, thought it inappropriate for boys to being doing this and, to this day, military-style drilling is not allowed in most Scouting programs, including that of the BSA.

Any troop that promotes such activities is in violation of official BSA policies.

Because the Scouting movement is huge, I'm certain there are units who go beyond good, orderly discipline and become control freak military wannabees. But such units reflect the distortions of the adult leaders (usually parents) rather than the BSA program.

[greekspeak]

54. We had guns at summer camp, and HJ like uniforms, worship the flag time

Get your ass to vespers before I kick it time, plenty of singing of nationalistic "patriotic" songs. There were plenty of oaths of loyalty, and secret societies, and overgrown child-adults who worked their fantasies of being GI Joe out on boys.

[pelagius]

61. It sounds like the uniforms really bothered you...

...as well as the flag ceremonies. They are part of the program, it's true. I probably don't have the same antipathy to the flag and/or uniforms that others do, but I can understand why it might not be appealing.

"Oaths of loyalty" I don't understand -- do you mean the Scout Oath?: "On my honor, I promise to do my best to do my duty to God and country...", etc. Fair enough, that's there, too. I completely understand why a non-theist would object to that.

Secret societies? Do you mean the Order of the Arrow? It's not really secret, they do ask that members keep some of the ceremonies to themselves so as to allow newer members to have the same initiation experience.

The behavior of the leaders that you describe was just flat out wrong and would be dealt with quite severely in my local council. It's also against BSA policy. You got cheated out of the respect you deserved and robbed of your personal dignity.

That makes me mad and sad at the same time.

[greekspeak]

66. I really don't think about scouts a lot...but when conversations arise...

It all comes back. The uniforms bothered me for several reasons. First of all, the troops choose parts of the uniform. Or at least they did then and there. My troop wore berets because it looked "military." My obeservations go to the level of the council. Mine was the Ozarks Council, which included a lot of SW Missouri. It seems the more inclusive the event (i.e., district level, council level), the more militaristic the tone of the event became.

And I am referring to Order of the Arrow as secret society. In my council, when I first started, the ceremony involved men and boys already in the group dressing up in native American garb. Then, all the eligible boys had to line up while drums were beaten. Then, one of the leaders would "tap out" the boys being inducted--literally knock the boy to the ground. At this point, other members would grab the boy up and run him off into the woods. A few days after the ceremony they came back and were not allowed to talk. I do not know what went on in those woods. I do not want to know. I do know that I was petrified to the point of tears to have this awful looking thing happen to me. There was dead silence about everything in the order of the arrow. The whole thing was secret. The boys that were members wore odd regalia after induction, and we never learned what it meant. Again, I did not want to know. They stopped the "tapping out" after a boy someplace had been seriously injured in the ceremony. The next year or two, they just made everyone go to bed at 7:00 in the evening and came and kidnapped inductees into the woods. The other kids in the troop voted on the candidates. I begged and plead the other boys not to vote for me. Adults terrorizing boys is sick. I am sorry.

However wrong these leaders' behavior was, it was condoned. It was even looked upon favorably. The man I mentioned to you as making boys uncomfortable was considered a model scout leader.

By the way...what got my questioning of God's existance going was boy scouts. I was at camp one year, when I was still a budding little fundivangelical. I went to vespers, read the bible, prayed, etc. all that trip. I befriended a guy a little older than me, and got as close as one gets in the week or so. ANd then we get into a discussion about who goes to heaven and to hell. He told me that anyone who was not saved is going to hell. And I asked, what about all those people before Jesus even was born. All going to hell, was the answer. What about the people in the world who had never heard of Jesus. All going to hell. I began that day to question religion.

Again, I am glad that you are part of such a loving, fine sounding group. You are lucky.

[pelagius]

67. I'm so sorry you had that experience. Truly.

And I suspect you're not alone. I like to believe things are better today, but I live in a very liberal part of the country and, I must admit, local Scout practices tend to reflect local values.

[pelagius]

62. Also, regarding guns at camp...

...I suspect you had the opportunity to shoot a gun in the context of a safety course and a range master supervised firing range. If you marched around drilling with guns or slept with a rifle by your side or whatever , your camp was way, way out of bounds with regard to the rules.

[Xithras]

37. Bull. I'm a former scout leader, and about as pacifist as they come.

Scouting is a parent-organized activity, and the behavior of a scout pack or troop will reflect the style of the parents running it. I can understand how a scout troop on a military base might be a bit more militaristic (because all of the kids and leaders would be from military families, after all), but that isn't a part of the official BSA program. The goals of the scouting programs are to create people who are honest, self-disciplined, self-reliant, willing and able to serve the community and protect their environment. Militarism isn't even remotely important.

[Toots]

59. You did not wear a uniform?

Did you have Platoon (Patrol) leaders. Did you not get promotions similar to sgt or major. Awards for exercise completed (merit badges). Do you do/receive all those things in civilian life? You certainly do in the military.

[pelagius]

63. Well, I have worn a uniform in my civilian life...

...when I worked in food service and as a plumbers assistant. After I graduated from college I went to work in the IT business and was expected to dress according to the standards of the company. I sang in a choir and was expected to wear a robe. You get the picture.

In my jobs, I received promotions to higher levels of responsibility (with commesurate titles and compensation) as I proved my abilities. In a number of cases there were very specific educational, tenure, and skills I had to achieve before I could advance. Oh, yeah -- I got "attaboy" certificates to hang on my cubicle wall when I completed a training course or whatever. Turned me into a real fascist, that did.

I don't anyone would deny that Scouting has military-like aspects. But, like it or not, the military has developed -- over many millenia -- organizational principles that enable individuals to work in groups effectively and it would be foolish to ignore that acquired wisdom when it is useful to your goal.

[Danieljay]

44. Not even close...but these guys are bit closer

http://www.alertacademy.com /

http://www.alertcadet.org /

Q: What about a boy who does not have a father — is he excluded?

A: If the boy’s father is at all involved in his life, that is the relationship we want to encourage. If the father does not want to participate, it would be better to not have the son participate either. If there is not a father in the boy’s life at all, it would be permissible to have a male relative (uncle, grandfather, extremely older brother, etc.), or another father or young man act as the boy’s accountability partner in the ALERT Cadet Program — providing that whatever relationship established is under the authority of the family’s local church. Caution is necessary. All such situations must be approved on a case-by-case basis by ALERT Cadet Headquarters.

Q: What is the goal of ALERT Cadets?

A: The goal of the ALERT Cadet program is to encourage fathers to strengthen the relationships with their sons by winning and keeping their sons’ hearts and to equip fathers with the tools to lay the foundations of communication, accountability, and discipleship while building the framework of character through discipline and service with the vision of a young man mighty in spirit, prepared and strong in the day of spiritual battle.

[Mass]

3. So they had time to vote on that before cloture

but not on the amendments that would actually help military people and veterans?

[Tux]

4. I'm all for it

If they're on bases, they can be convinced to recruit for false wars once they're 18.

[stopbush]

5. I've said it before: FUCK The BSA & their anti-gay policies!

Suit 'em up and send 'em over to Eye-Rak ASAP.

[ConfuZed]

11. The BSA is anti-gay.... hmmmm?

[LostinVA]

23. Are you saying they aren't? because they most definitely ARE

And seem to revel in their public declaration of such.

[WhiteTara]

42. only if they aren't involved

then it's just boys will be boys and a man having sex with another man.

[Not Me]

6. BSA argued ad nauseum

that they are a PRIVATE organization, and as such, they can deny membership to whoever they want; read: queers and atheists.

Why then are we opening up PUBLIC facilities to them??????????

(btw, I am a former Eagle Scout, who sadly, cannot recommend the program any more.

[Squatch]

7. Military bases are not public facilities.

[Mairead]

14. They're public in the sense our taxes pay for them.

[AllegroRondo]

8. I'm OK with it

Its all just part of the 'community service' and public relations. When I was in the Army at Ft Leonard Wood, we would sponsor the state Special Olympics every year - we had good facilities and good volunteers. Why not put the bases to some good use?

[Mairead]

20. Public money/resources should not be used to support bigotry

Public monies come from all of us, and should not be used to benefit organisations that exclude.

The Special Olympics aren't bigoted, but the BSA are.

[kath]

35. Hear, hear, Mairead -no public resources should beused to support bigotry!

[Iowa]

9. This is a remarkable waste of time on a non-issue...

and one more reason why our worthless Congress is viewed with such contempt by most citizens. "while Rome burns...".

[obxhead]

10. I was a Boy Scout for a while

Not too long though. We had a big trip planned to go to Disney World that 30 or so of us would attend. 3 days before we were supposed to go our scout master took off with all of our loot in his pocket. Decided they were not for me at that point.

[reprobate]

12. Me too. The week after I joined the troop disbanded. Never missed them.

[pelagius]

28. That man was a criminal and I hope he was prosecuted. n/t

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Five]

26. ???

I thought they were anti-gay bigots? Now they are a nambla offshoot?

[comsymp]

34. Sounds like you may have some reading to do

If you see any similarity between being gay and pedophilia (NAMBLA).


Besides, everybody knows that the perverts are almost always Republican~

[AwareOne]

19. The Boy Scouts of America are the new Hitler youth

Bush is going to speak at the convention later this week.

[pelagius]

29. Each President of the United States...

...is made an honorary "Chief Scout". Clinton was and so was Carter. Reagan and both Bushes are/were, too. It is considered traditional for the President to speak at a national gathering such as a Jamboree. W is not being singled out for some special personal honor. His appearence has more to do with tradition and respect for the Office of the Presidency, rather than the man himself.

There are many, many Democrats and progressives in Scouting. The National Office seems to be unduly influenced by an alliance of Mormons and Texas Republicans, but the National Office really has very little to do with what happens at the local unit or council level.

[Danieljay]

41. bulls@#t...Give me a break.

The majority of Boy Scout troops are wonderful programs for good kids. I work with area Boy Scouts, Venture Scouts, Girl Scouts, and I have never experienced anything close to "hitler youth". For effs sake...don't label all Boy Scouts on the stupid actions of a few sexist homophobes.

I grew up in a Boy Scout troop and it was a terrific experience. The local Boy Scouts I work with are responsible kids volunteering in Disaster Response, Blood Drives, Forestry, Beach cleanups, etc.

If you really want to take a look at something scary..look at the ALERT cadet programs. Boy Scouts are nothing compared to this group.

http://www.alertcadet.org /

[rexcat]

21. All the BSA is now..

is a paramilitary, religious organization who teaches bigotry!

[arwalden]

24. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. --- It's Just Wrong.

The Boy Scouts Of America is a RELIGIOUS group that promotes and encourages bigotry.

[element23]

25. ridiculous

Just another example of tax dollars and government support going to organizations that openly discriminate.

Aren't there laws about these sort of things? Not that this administration gives a crap about laws.

[Laughing Mirror]

31. Yes there are laws

But the lawmakers, not to mention the administration, do not care one whit about them, just like you say. We the people are expected to abide by the laws, but our government is not.

The Pentagon doesn't care if boy scouts discriminate against gays because the Pentagon does too.

[pelagius]

30. I'm an active Scoutmaster...

...and a liberal Democrat. I'm not an anomaly. One of our unit's leaders was county chair for the Kucinich presidental campaign. Looking at the precinct totals in the area we service, odds are very high that most of our parents and leaders voted for Kerry in the last election.

On the balance, I think the good the program does for kids in my area (coastal California) outweighs the negative policies established by the National Office. I don't belong to any organization with which I completely agree and BSA is no exception. But the National Office has so little influence over what happens at the local level, so they're easy to ignore.

I also believe in the right of any private organization to define its own leader and membership requirements. I don't believe Scouts should have any special privileges extended to them (as has been the case in the past), but I do believe Scouts deserve access to public facilities as any other group and on the same terms.

In summary, here what I believe:

(1) The Boy Scouts of America discriminate against potential leaders who are gay, agnostic/atheist or both and, from my personal perspective this is wrong and contrary to the spirit of the Scout Law. I am working, with other Scouts, for change of these policies.

(2) Access to military bases, schools, and other public facilities should for the Scouts should be on the same basis as any other community group. For example, if the facility is available to an ethnic or religious organization with specific membership requirements based on ethnicity or religion, it should be available to the Scouts.

[OfireitupO]

32. I never had any problems in scouting

Im an Eagle Scout and about as liberal as you can get.

I had a thoreau-like Scoutmaster though so that may have contributed. What it comes down to is which troop you decide to join. There are military-man troops and life skills troops.

The ceremonies and christian preaching is pretty ridiculous IMO but so did most of my troop members so we scoffed at it and paid no attention to it. Some troops decide to keep it traditional and thats their right, but I have a right to choose a troop that doesnt do that and I did. No one said, NO you cant do that.

The boy scouts are NOT a paramilitary group or hitler youth group, they teach lessons that every boy AND man should know. I know what to do if im caught out in the middle of nowhere. How many can honestly say that here? Many of you without your cell phones and GPS would be screwed.

[pelagius]

33. "Thoreau-like Scoutmaster" is a great description!

I strive to be like that!

Too many Scout units think "duty to God" has something to do with Christian beliefs and practice. It actually isn't their right (unless they are a "closed unit" affilated with a specific church) to cram Christianity down the Scouts' throats. It's at complete odds with BSA policies, which clearly state that a "Scouts' Own" or other spiritual exercise be completely non-denominational.

[Danieljay]

43. Thank you...

I work with scouting organizations locally and overall have had great experiences. Yes, there are some bad apples, but the knee jerk reactions here labeling all Boy Scouts is irresponsible; especially coming from so called progressives. I'm a democrat and consider myself pretty liberal. I am disappointed how many progressives are so quick to paint with such a broad brush. We don't like it when the Rethugs do it to us..why should it be different if we do it?

[Xithras]

50. Thank you for posting that.

Sadly, many people get caught up in the Us vs. Them aspect of the debate and don't realize that many of the "Them"'s are actually "Us".

I'm a former den leader, former-interim Cubmaster, and current Awards Chair for a Cub Scout pack. I'm also a Democrat, a liberal, an environmentalist, and a loud opponent of the national BSA policies.

The problem, I think, is that many people on our side of the political spectrum erroneously believe that the national policies have an effect on our local packs and troops. They believe that since the national council is anti-gay, that we teach bigotry. On the contrary, I've never heard of a single pack teaching ANYTHING sexual, AT ALL, to ANY of its members. Hatred for homosexuality isn't taught in the scouts because the discussion of sexuality, in any form, is a taboo subject. The BSA's anti-abuse guidelines make it clear that ANY sexual activity, whether it be a simple discussion about sex or a physical act, is grounds for immediate and permanent removal from the organization. I have only had ONE scout in three years ask me about the BSA's position on homosexuals, and my response was pretty blunt: "You'll need to discuss that with your parents".

Scout packs and troops are only as discriminatory as the parents who run them and the boys who are in them. To tar the entire organization for the acts of a few is itself discriminatory.

[realFedUp]

36. I hope that means Girl Scouts too...

separate but equal?

[saigon68]

40. Equal in ever meaning of the word

Figure 1.--The Hitler Youth movement included girls, but they were enrolled in separate units--Bund Deutscher Maedchen. The goal was to prepare them for home and motherhood, quite different then the training provided the boys. This legend reads, "All 10 years olds ???".

The Hitler Youth program was for all German youth, boys and girls. The program, however, was not coeducational. There were separate groups for boys and girls. The activities of the two programs were very different. Both stressed health and outdoor activities, but the girl's program stressed the home and family and the duty to bear children. The boy's program stressed building a healthy body and skills that would serve a future German warrior.

[pelagius]

46. You seem to be unaware that Scouting (both Boy and Girl)...

...were banned in Hitler's Germany because the values taught by the Scouting movement were antithetical to the fascist agenda. This has been true in all totalitarian nations, btw. Scouting, I believe, promotes values that lead to independent thought and action.

The primary objection among Scouting families to the current BSA ban on gays and/or atheists as leaders is that such a stance runs counter to the values of the Scout Law. In other words, actual Scouts, leaders, and families are saying, "This is wrong, because tolerance and equality are bedrock Scouting values."

[greekspeak]

55. Sir, I respect your admiration for the Scouts. I do. BUT

It sounds like your scouting organization does not match scouting as some of us remember it. Maybe you could go to Southwest Missouri some time and try scouting there.

I learned a few valuable skills in scouts. I will say that. I had a little fun. Not much, but a little. Earning merit badges at Merit Badge University were some of the least painful times of my youth. Ask me sometime about my Radio merit badge. One of the best Saturdays of my life. But for the most part it was miserable. In a post above I saw mentioned "Thoreau-like" leaders. I met about 3 of those when I was in scouts. The bulk would have fit right in with the ideals of Neo-Conservatism. Can't get your fire started without matches? No dinner for you. Accidently drop ANY belonging while walking around scout camp? You will SING SOLO in front of the whole dining hall to get it back. Don't like the way Leader X wants to rub your shoulder and those of other boys? We'll just ignore that.

My father was my scoutmaster for a number of years. When we were camping, he adopted a whole new persona. He would bark orders, use military terms. AT EASE (not at flag worship time). NEGATORY. The only time he said NEGATORY was at Scouts.

I am glad you are not this kind of a leader. And I am glad you find scouting to be such a grand thing. But I saw nothing but an HJ wannabe outfit.

[Danieljay]

58. My experience was great

I was in scouts in a little town just north of Wichita Kansas. All my leaders were good men, never humiliated anyone. I learned a lot from all of them. Did I like all of them? There was a couple I didn't, but they never did anything inappropiate that I know of. It wasn't militaristic at all. We recited the pledge of allegiance, repeated our scout laws (I can still list them) and did our oath. There was room for everyone. Sorry to hear you had a less than positive experience.

[pelagius]

60. I freely agree that some Scouters and Scout units...

...behave in a overly disciplined or even paramiltary fashion. I've seen a couple of those units in action. It's not pretty.

That does not, in my mind, automatically make the entire organization a pack of Nazis.

[pelagius]

47. Girls Scouts don't require belief in God...

...and don't ban gay members/leaders, so they wouldn't be affected.

Most of the worldwide Scouting movement doesn't any such strictures, either. The BSA is out-of-step with the overall trend toward inclusion, though. Sadly, I think much of the non-coastal US populace is also.

[LostinVA]

56. Not true. I was not allowed to help out with a local GSA

troop because of my sexual orientation. When I contacted the National HQ, I was told that was official GSA policy, but they couldn';t control what local troops did.

I was pissed. Why? Because I was a Brownie, GS, Cadet, Senior, etc. My mom was my GSA leader.

[pelagius]

64. Was this in the past 15 years or so ago?

Since at least 1991, as I understand it, the GSA does inquire into the private lives of its members or leaders, although it does have a ban on discussions of sexuality, which, it is thought, should be left to the families.

In practice, I suspect this could be a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing (which actually appears to be the operating principle of most Boy Scout councils), but I have not been able to locate any policy specifically state that gay people are barred from leadership. The BSA, on the other hand, in 1982 issued a statement that gay people ipso facto are not good role models and therefore unfit for leadership. Odious.

Also, on the God thing, GSA allows its members to substitute a word or phrase of their own choice in place of "duty to God." I'm not aware of what kind of spiritual observances take place at a GSA camp, so perhaps others can provide that information.

[LostinVA]

68. Yes, it was about two years ago

I was asked outright. So, the GSA may be inclusive, but local troops aren't. I was rather shocked when they asked me. I thought it rude, intrusive, and against the spirit of the GSA I grew up with. And, that and "are you married?" were the ONLY "private lives" questions asked me.

I no longer support the local council because of this. I used to send them $300 a year in donations, plus buy cookies every year.

[pelagius]

69. Wow! I'm shocked...

...especially because I get frequent rations of @#$% from certain Girl Scout leaders I know about how wonderfully bigotry-free the GSA is compared to the benighted Boy Scouts.

Again, I live in coastal California, so things may be different here. Do you mind telling me the general area where you're located?

[KamaAina]

38. Why not? They both discriminate against gay and lesbian Americans.

Maybe we could come up with a "don't ask, don't tell" policy where the guys at the guard shack look the other way while the Scouts move in

Which reminds me, isn't it a king-hell security risk in this day and age to be allowing thousands of civilians onto a military base?

[pelagius]

48. The Girl Scouts of America...

...have no ban on gays and/or agnostics in leadership positions, nor do most of the organizations in the world-wide Scouting movement.

[KamaAina]

49. That's right

There was even an attempt to get Canadian Scouting to start troops here in the Lower 48, under the non-discriminatory Canadian charter.

But then, why would such an organization want to hold an event on a military base in the first place?

[pelagius]

51. I think because there are a limited number of facilities...

...that can accommodate 50,000 people camping and pursuing vigorous activities. Not all large Scout events are held on a military base.

[tishaLA]

57. Boy do I miss Dookus on threads like this

:sigh: