WP: Plame's Identity Marked As Secret

[Halliburton]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

This is huge. This proves that Rove and whoever else that leaked the information knew exactly that she was covert!! Good to see the Post didn't have ADHD.

[Octafish]

1. Libby links straight to Sneer. Turd Blossom goes right up Smirk's arse.

Seems our brothers and sisters in Langley are leaking the Truth about the BFEE.

Thanks for the heads-up on the article, Halliburton!

[Pirate Smile]

9. Here are four paragraphs. Great. One day for Supreme Court only then

back to the CIA leak.

"A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked "(S)" for secret, a clear indication that any Bush administration official who read it should have been aware the information was classified, according to current and former government officials.

Plame -- who is referred to by her married name, Valerie Wilson, in the memo -- is mentioned in the second paragraph of the three-page document, which was written on June 10, 2003, by an analyst in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR), according to a source who described the memo to The Washington Post.

The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret."

[LiberalFighter]

11. I wonder if there is any documentation that describes the procedure

they must follow in reading classified information for those granted security clearance

[Media_Lies_Daily]

131. Back when I ran a classified vault, you had to attend a very detailed....

...course on dealing with classified documents and materials. So, the answer is "yes"....there was a ton of information telling people how they must deal with classified material, who could be allowed to read it, how long they could be kept on file unless superceded, and how such materials could be destroyed.

[Why Syzygy]

15. The CIA leak

has fallen completely off of news.google.com's radar!!
They better bring it back

[UpInArms]

32. back on the front page

with this WP article as the lead

Plame's Identity Marked As Secret
Washington Post - 31 minutes ago
By Walter Pincus and Jim VandeHei. A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked "(S)" for secret ...
Bush limits conditions on firing aides in CIA leak Chicago Tribune
'Bush's Brain' Karl Rove may have lied to the FBI Seven Oaks
Seattle Times - ABC News - Yahoo News - BBC News - all 1,217 related »

[Imagevision]

148. Freepers - "S" stands for S-E-C-R-E-T go tell Limbaugh!

[conservdem]

73. The headline does not seem to completely match the

detail. It does not see so clear to me since the article indicates that the secret "designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said."

[nyhuskyfan]

75. There were only 7 sentences in the memo, though...

I think anyone reading it should be under the assumption that EVERYTHING in the memo is classified. I would hope, anyway. .

[conservdem]

119. The article states that it was a three page memo.

The paragraph mentioning Plame was seven sentences. I would be interested in seeing where the S was in relation to the reference to her.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

130. Doesn't matter where the "S" was located if the ENTIRE document....

...was classified as "Secret".

Just curious, but have you ever worked in the intelligence/classified document world?

[conservdem]

139. No I have never worked in the field and have no special

knowledge about it. I did not get the impression that the entire document was secret. The article indicates that the paragraph at issue was marked "S" for secret.

Where is there and indication that the entire memo was "secret" ?

[blondeatlast]

142. I'll take Media Lies Daily's word for it, since you have no experience

and he does.

[blondeatlast]

141. You'll find out soon enough, if Rove and Libby are indicted for perjury.

That broke down the wall in Watergate.

[yardwork]

116. You must be kidding.

The entire memo is marked "secret." What part of that would be open to misinterpretation? The name of the agent discussed in the memo?

I don't think so.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

129. The memo was classified as Secret....therefore, the CONTENTS of the....

....entire memo was classified to at least the Secret level.

[conservdem]

143. The article indicates that the paragraph at issue

was marked secret, not the entire memo.

"A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked '(S)' for secret ..."

At the same time, I recognize that the entire memo was "classified."

[joemurphy]

30. Bingo!

There's a war on between the CIA and the White House. I love it!
Can you guess whom I'm putting my money on?

[MadisonProgressive]

69. CIA! CIA! CIA! YEEYAAAAAHHHH!

[wrate]

138. Never, for one second, did I ever think I would root for the CIA. But I do

n/t

[Goblyn]

2. LOL omg I want to see freeper spin on this

I have been checking the FREep site for their take on this..

(yes I shower everytime )

But this blows about 80% of the theories and spins posted right otu of the water...

Only one left is

"Libral MEdia" (although that usually accompanies anythign else said)

[grytpype]

28. Welcome to DU!!!

[leesa]

35. What did the say the "S" meant? Share?

[truthisfreedom]

59. "smear." that's what they thought the "s" meant.

[kainah]

3. good morning, Karl!

Boy, that strategy of moving up the SCOTUS nomination to get Rove off the front pages worked really, really well, didn't it?

[aquart]

49. Think George will divorce Laura to get a news cycle?

[bleever]

4. Here comes the big stuff.

If I were Cheney's heart specialist, I'd be gearing up for dealing with stress complications.

But I'm not.

[krkaufman]

5. I see an aneuryism in Justice Rehnquist's *very* near future n/t

[jsamuel]

6. "Knowingly" is no longer an issue!

I believe that was the last requirement since we also know she was covert.

Game, set, match, crime.

The "most insidious of traitors."

[DS1]

7. OOPS, say the talking heads

Or more accurately, "Here's an update on Natalie Holloway" say the talking heads

[Frances]

8. Here's an interesting sentence from the article

"It records that the INR analyst at the meeting opposed Wilson's trip to Niger because the State Department, through other inquiries, already had disproved the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger."

So Wilson was not the only one at the CIA who didn't believe Iraq was trying to get uranium. That means the Republican talking point that Wilson was wrong is just another lie.

[Roy]

42. But... But... According to Mouth Mehlman.....

CIA documents, the 911 Commission and every other body has already discredited Wilson's report and all the information it contained.

Also, there was plenty of other proof that the Saddam Niger purchase was true.

well, no problem, just move the goal post... NO... the stadium a few more hundred feet/yards/miles.
what ever it takes to keep Karl Rove running this government.

[savemefromdumbya]

90. everyone else knew

most other countries knew that the uranium thing was bogus (even the Bush admin.) except Bushbaby thought people were stupid enough to believe him.....

[burythehatchet]

145. Burythehatchet, sitting on his couch

in his tightie whities knew, fergodsakes.

[aquart]

51. And Colin Powell already knew it was a lie.

[bribri16]

114. EXCELLENT point !!!! n/t

[CAcyclist]

123. 3 Reports Disproving Uranium-Niger Connection

http://www.dkosopedia.com/index.php/Niger_uranium

In February 2002, three different American officials made efforts to verify the reports.

The deputy commander of U.S. Armed Forces Europe, Marine Gen. Carlton Fulford, went to Niger and met with the country's president. He concluded that, given the controls on Niger's uranium supply, there was little chance any of it could have been diverted to Iraq. His report was sent to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers.

The U.S. Ambassador to Niger, Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, was also present at the meeting and sent similar conclusions to the State Department.

At roughly the same time, the CIA sent Ambassador Joseph Wilson to investigate the claims himself. Wilson had been posted to Niger 14 years earlier, and throughout a diplomatic career in Africa he had built up a large network of contacts in Niger. He concluded that there was no way that production at the uranium mines could be ramped up or that the excess uranium could have been exported without it being immediately obvious to many people both in the private sector and in the government of Niger. He returned home and told the CIA that the reports were false.

The CIA passed this conclusion on to the White House, the FBI, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Defense Intelligence Agency.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

133. Thank you...good post!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

132. There were at least two inquiries into the Niger uranium question before..

...Wilson was sent on his trip to Niger. All three stated the same thing...there was no truth to the allegation that Iraq was trying to buy yellowcake from Niger.

[RSchewe]

10. This part can be damaging if he is proven to have lied about the memo...

I wonder what Rove or anyone else's testimony was regarding this memo.

This part can be damaging to him if he is proven to have lied:

Rove has also testified that the first time he saw the State Department memo was when "people in the special prosecutor's office" showed it to him, said Robert Luskin, his attorney.

"He had not seen it or heard about it before that time," Luskin said.

[UpInArms]

14. He also said that he had nothing to do with this -

he said that to the FBI before he had to tell the truth to the GJ - where he admitted that he had leaked. Looks like that leak has definitely turned to pissed in his pants.

Welcome to DU RSchewe!

[rodeodance]

16. also says the State dept had ALREADY disproved Iraq was seeking

uranium from Nigar. whow.



......The description of Wilson's wife and her role in the Feb. 19, 2002, meeting at the CIA was considered "a footnote" in a background paragraph in the memo, according to an official who was aware of the process.

It records that the INR analyst at the meeting opposed Wilson's trip to Niger because the State Department, through other inquiries, already had disproved the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger. Attached to the INR memo were the notes taken by the senior INR analyst who attended the 2002 meeting at the CIA.

[Pallas180]

50. "State Dept already proved." And Who or is it WHOM

was the State Department at that time? And who was trying to stop the march to war through back channels in a most cowardly "save your own and your son's skin" ?

Colin Powell, who was keeping his mouth shut because the"administration" had forced him to lie before God and the representatives of every nation on earth and some billion or so inhabitants of the world on live television.

"opposed Wilson's trip to Niger because the State Department, through other inquiries, already had disproved the allegation that Iraq was seeking uranium from Niger. "

I wonder if Fitzgerald has interviewed Powell yet.

[CAcyclist]

125. Yes They Have

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/07/06...
Fitzgerald's investigation has included interviews with President Bush; former Secretary of State Colin Powell; Bush's chief political adviser, Karl Rove; Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis Libby; and others.


http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/2237.html


August 02, 2004
Powell joins list of those who spoke to Plame Game investigators
Posted 10:36 am | Printer Friendly

With all that's going on in the world, it's sometimes easy to forget the Bush White House is still under a criminal investigation.

And while we'll soon find out if any indictments will be forthcoming — Matt Yglesias seems to think there won't be — I certainly won't be able to complain about Patrick Fitzgerald's thoroughness. This guy's talked to everyone.

Over the weekend, for example, we learned that Colin Powell has joined the very long list of administration officials to appear before the grand jury.

Secretary of State Colin Powell has spoken to a grand jury probing whether Bush aides leaked the name of a CIA agent to retaliate against her husband, an Iraq war critic, the State Department said Sunday.

State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said Powell spoke to the grand jury on July 16 about the case of CIA officer Valerie Plame, whose name surfaced in a piece written by columnist Robert Novak after her husband raised questions in public about the intelligence used to justify the Iraq war.

Boucher declined specific comment on the testimony but he stressed Powell had not talked to Novak about Plame. He said the secretary of state was not a subject of the investigation.

<…>

Asked if Powell called or spoke to Novak about Plame, Boucher said: "Of course not."

That's fine; no one really suspected Powell in this mess anyway.

Newsweek, which first reported this story, said the Powell testimony demonstrates two things: Fitzgerald's probe is "highly active and broader than has been publicly known" and that "knowledge about Plame was circulated at the highest levels of the administration."

****************************************************************************


I am just waiting for the Republicans to start pointing fingers at Powell. I'll bet he's actually helping us behind the scenes instead.

[Pallas180]

147. OOPS. interview with Cheney not mentioned! was there

an interview with Cheney?

If not, perhaps Cheney is a target of the investigation.

And Colin Powell would definitely talk behind the scenes, but never
up front.

This could be verrrrry verrrry interesting.

But if they start impeachment it would not conclude for a couple of
years. and by that time the fascist nazi neocons will have completed a lot more damage. This country is already unrecongnizable.

[grytpype]

29. Welcome to DU!!!

[lanlady]

61. so Rove didn't know about it--

--but apparently Jeff Gannon did. Gee, I'm so glad the adults are in charge.

[henslee]

82. Adults in charge -- thats exactly what went through my mind....

clowning time is over.

[AuntiBush]

12. Never Thought I'd Be Saying this one: But 'thanks" Halliburton!

[Justice]

13. From WSJ Article -

"Generally, the federal government has three levels of classified information -- top secret, secret and confidential -- all indicating various levels of "damage" to national security if disclosed."

So secret is more than confidential - not as high as top secret. Tsk Tsk Tsk - these guys did a very bad thing.

[kurtyboy]

17. I'm having a little trouble believing that Plame's name was only

classified at the Secret (S) level. The definition of information safeguarded by this classification is that if revealed to the public, SERIOUS damage to national security would result. I tend to think that, with the fallout from the exposure of Plame's front Company, BREWSTER JENNINGS, and the inplied outing of every other covert agent with that outfit, GRAVE damage to our national security has occurred. Thus, I figure the paragraph might more properly have been marked Top Secret (TS)--perhaps even compartmented.

Edited to get the name of the front Co right--sheez, what a brainfart

[jsamuel]

22. If the paragraph only had her name and not her front company?

That might give it a (S) instead of (TS).

Which begs the question, WHERE DID THEY FIND OUT HER FRONT COMPANY?

[kurtyboy]

43. In my experience, the game don't get played that way

Information is usually given the most extreme classificataion, whether it will cause the damage or not. For example, I remember stuff getting classified at TS levels even though it was printed in books available to the general public. In fact, I signed a Non-disclosure agreement once on information I had read in a bestseller a few weeks earlier! The briefer was astounded by my awareness of the subject matter, and I confronted her a few times with what I thought might be deceptions in the briefing.

Can't tell you, to this day, what I am talking about----but trust me, it's in a book that you can get on Amazon!

No, if it is sensitive, it gets treated that way, espescially in this administration, which deeply classifies everything they get their hands on.


SOMEONE, hopefully many someone's, are going down...

[jsamuel]

52. thanks for that

good to know!

[rateyes]

84. It was in the same damned memo...

which makes--and anyone and everyone who shared this info with unautorized persons is guilty, not so much of the IIPA (identity protection)--but of the Espionage Act. Sharing classified information, whether you are a reporter or a governmental official, for ANY reason--intent not a part of this crime---if proven, lands you in prison. Period. End of Sentence.

[Igel]

120. The usual story is that they determined the name of the CIA

company that was her cover from public sources.

The story goes that she donated $1k to some election campaign, and was obliged to provide her employer's name. I forget if it was Plame or Wilson that she donated under.

[CAcyclist]

126. It was as Valerie Wilson

Sentence extracted from below:

"Plame used her married name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an "analyst" with Brewster-Jennings & Associates."


Leak of Agent's Name Causes Exposure of CIA Front Firm

By Walter Pincus and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, October 4, 2003; Page A03

The leak of a CIA operative's name has also exposed the identity of a CIA front company, potentially expanding the damage caused by the original disclosure, Bush administration officials said yesterday.

-snip-
After the name of the company was broadcast yesterday, administration officials confirmed that it was a CIA front. They said the obscure and possibly defunct firm was listed as Plame's employer on her W-2 tax forms in 1999 when she was working undercover for the CIA. Plame's name was first published July 14 in a newspaper column by Robert D. Novak that quoted two senior administration officials. They were critical of her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, for his handling of a CIA mission that undercut President Bush's claim that Iraq had sought uranium from the African nation of Niger for possible use in developing nuclear
FEC rules require donors to list their employment.

Plame used her married name, Valerie E. Wilson, and listed her employment as an "analyst" with Brewster-Jennings & Associates. The document establishes that Plame has worked undercover within the past five years. The time frame is one of the standards used in making determinations about whether a disclosure is a criminal violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40012-2003Oct...

[Halliburton]

26. CIA Officers who are covert are classified as 'secret.'

<snip>
The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.
<snip>

[SnoopDog]

18. Forgive me.... ADHD?

Usually I can figure these out.

[Kadie]

21. ADHD

Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

[SnoopDog]

24. tanks,,,,! ( I knew that!)

[goforit]

19. Mr. Ford changed the addressee of memo from Grossman to Powell?

Hmmmm........Trying to hit four birds with one memo, eh?

Brewster Jennings,Plame, Wilson and Powell

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. Maybe he thought "S" stood for "smartass"?

[usregimechange]

23. Wow!

[Straight Shooter]

25. Rove is a pig. He thought the "(S)" stood for "squeal."

The Roberts nomination is a fart in the wind, for now. We have other fish to fry. We can put Roberts on the back burner, slow simmer.

I hate it when I mix my metaphors, but I just can't help myself.

[joemurphy]

39. Yeah, Let's have 5 weeks of Rove, Rove, Rove, Rove, Rove n/t

[grytpype]

27. This article is chock full of new facts.

Here's a summary.

1. The AF1 memo originated from notes taken by a senior INR analyst at a Feb 19 2002 CIA meeting where Wilson's visit to Niger was discussed.

2. The memo was drafted June 10, 2002 and was directed to Undersecrtary Marc Grossman. It was all about why State didn't believe Saddam was trying to get uranium from Africa.

3. After Wilson went public Powell started asking about Wilson, the memo was reprinted and directed to Powell. This was July 6.

4. Luskin says (and therefore Rove testified) that he never read the memo and didn't even hear about it until he was questioned during the investigation.

5. Plame was identified in two sentences in a seven-sentence paragraph marked Secret, which is the designation used for covert agents.

We know from previous stories that Powell brought the memo on to an AF1 flight to Africa. Supposedly Rove was not on the flight.

But I think we can gather from this that Powell was able to name a bunch of senior administration officials who had seen the memo.

[Justice]

33. three small points

1. The memo apparently did not say Valerie Plame, it identified her as either Wilson's wife or Valerie Wilson.

2. It apparently did not identify her cover company.

3. I read elsewhere that Armitage recalled the memo after reading Wilson's op-ed piece and ask that it be sent to Powell.

[CAcyclist]

127. Good points

It would only take a Google search to get her maiden name, but the effort to ascertain that was her cover name and the id of the cover company would probably take much more effort than can be done in a couple days.

The opposition research on Wilson and his wife had to have already been done and just waiting for him to reveal the truth.

In Wilson's book, he says that a friend of his met Novak on the street on July 8, only 2 days after his essay. That was when Novak told the friend(who hadn't revealed to Novak that he knew Wilson) that "Wilson's an asshole. The CIA sent him. His wife,Valerie, works for the CIA. She's a weapons of mass destruction specialist.She sent him."

So it's really impossible that this memo was the only source of Novak's information, if the timeline starts July 7.

On the other hand, since Marc Grossman had the memo before, if the opposition research was launched from this info a month earlier, they could have had time to put the pieces together.

So the new request for this article to be given to Powell makes me think that Rove, Cheney and Bush maybe thought they could make Powell into the bad guy in case an investigation got started.

[The Stranger]

78. What is the significance of the memo being originally to "Marc Grossman"?

[CAcyclist]

128. Wilson Went Public July 6

The piece was on the website 10:30 the night before, however.

Wilson's book stated that:

"On Monday evening, while the administration's mea culpa for their error was being circulated among the press, the president and his entourage set off for a trip to Africa. However, rather than simply getting the story behind them by finding and firing the person repsonsible for inserting the lie into the State of the Union address, they began trying to denigrate me."

[ngGale]

31. *WOW* things are heating up ...

as they very well should.

[Donailin]

34. oh oh oh oh oh

this is too good to be true. I love it. front page top headline of tomorrows paper. So much for the smoke and mirrrors don't-look-over-there-look-over-here! approach.

Please God, I beg you! Let the truth be known for all to see: Bush authorized if not knew that Rove was outing Plame in order to discredit Wilson so he could have his bloody murderous war!

"Punishable by up to ten years in Prison" <---I'm gonna go to bed on that note.

[Pithy Cherub]

36. How would you like your Rove?

toasted, filleted or grilled? Rare, medium or well done...

It will be served on our finest boneheaded Cheney, with a side of Rice, a Bartlett Pear, complimented with unctous Fliescher and McLellan our headtrip waiter will take you around on our Scooter upon finishing the meal. The pResident will beg everyone's pardon as his indigestion kicked in...

[upi402]

38. I'd say it's; How does his future cell mate like him?

Prone maybe?

[SlowDownFast]

46. pfffffttt!!!

[Athame]

56. I think char-broiled would be nice

Roasted Rove on an open flame. And the leftovers can be served with canned Libby's pie fillin'.

By the way, it seems as if Scooter Libby should be getting just as much heat as Rove.

[upi402]

37. Everybody should buy newspapers with this as a headline.

I will, and I'll write more letters, click on more petitions to sign.
Man, this is sooo good it could lead to real Downing Street hearings!

[Donailin]

44. are you kidding?? This IS our "downing street memo"

this is the nugget that proves this president knew there was no case for preemptive strike on Iraq. Someone disagrees publicly? Ruin him, smear him, out his wife. Make him regret it. Ask Paul O'Neil

[shraby]

40. All right people, this was all planned from the get-go

Members of the WHIG cabal were on the plane with Bush. Why? To use that memo. Rove stayed home for a "vacation"..he's always with Bush. That was for plausible deniability on Rove's part. I don't believe Libby was along either.
Maybe that was part of the reason for the trip in the first place. It put Bush and the WHIG bunch far, far from the scene of action. No one was supposed to know the memo was along for the ride.

Anyone want to expand or detract?

[Lorien]

47. Didn't Ari Fleisher go along on that trip

then resign right around the time Plame was outed?

[RSchewe]

41. Seymour Hersh - "The Stove Pipe" (2003-10-20) is interesting...

This article is chock full of insight regarding the trip to Niger and what was going on around that time regarding the Bush administration.

Never read this article back then, but reading it now, I found this part fascinating:

Who produced the fake Niger papers? There is nothing approaching a consensus on this question within the intelligence community. There has been published speculation about the intelligence services of several different countries. One theory, favored by some journalists in Rome, is that sismi produced the false documents and passed them to Panorama for publication.

Another explanation was provided by a former senior C.I.A. officer. He had begun talking to me about the Niger papers in March, when I first wrote about the forgery, and said, “Somebody deliberately let something false get in there.” He became more forthcoming in subsequent months, eventually saying that a small group of disgruntled retired C.I.A. clandestine operators had banded together in the late summer of last year and drafted the fraudulent documents themselves.

“The agency guys were so pissed at Cheney,” the former officer said. “They said, ‘O.K, we’re going to put the bite on these guys.’ ” My source said that he was first told of the fabrication late last year, at one of the many holiday gatherings in the Washington area of past and present C.I.A. officials. “Everyone was bragging about it—‘Here’s what we did. It was cool, cool, cool.’ ” These retirees, he said, had superb contacts among current officers in the agency and were informed in detail of the sismi intelligence.

“They thought that, with this crowd, it was the only way to go—to nail these guys who were not practicing good tradecraft and vetting intelligence,” my source said. “They thought it’d be bought at lower levels—a big bluff.” The thinking, he said, was that the documents would be endorsed by Iraq hawks at the top of the Bush Administration, who would be unable to resist flaunting them at a press conference or an interagency government meeting. They would then look foolish when intelligence officials pointed out that they were obvious fakes. But the tactic backfired, he said, when the papers won widespread acceptance within the Administration. “It got out of control.”

(emphasis added)

Source: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?031027fa_fact
>

Not sure if this is true, but can you imagine this war being caused in part by a plan by CIA officials to get back at Cheney backfiring? Wow...

One day there is going to be a movie about all these lies and these crazy back stories when these people finally go down.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Bush administration rushed the nomination for the Supreme Court to get it in before everything comes crumbling down and to go a step further have a friend on the inside when the crap hits the fan. I wouldn't put a thing past these people.

[Donailin]

45. got the book; been reading these same pages for the past week

[Pallas180]

53. Nope. Doesn't make sense. Sounds like darpa disinformation or

Cheney/LIbby disinformation leading to further discrediting of the
CIA under Tenannt. Right? Think about it. The papers were very bad obvious forgeries, wrong dates, signed(forgery) by person who had not been in that embassy for 10 years, etc etc .

If the retired CIA had done it, they certainly would have done a better job than that.

This is disinformation.

Cheney had a group working on bullying the analysts to come up with the kind of info he wanted. Some of this group had secret clearance, been assigned to the CIA in past administrations. Cheney hung around the CIA. Cheney and his group are PRO proliferation of
WMD.

Plame and her group were ANTI proliferation of WMD. Some of Cheney's group knew of Plame's mission having worked in her area in year's past. Plame's mission was to catch the illegal traders and proliferators of WMD.

Now who do you know who was the CEO of a corporation who wanted to sell WMD components to third world countries like LIBYA AND IRAN and was caught proliferating and had to pay a 10 million dollar fine? And who do you know who was being investigated by the Atomic Energy Commission for the same thing? And who do you know who had access to and could read over Plame's shoulder?

And who do you know, just conjecturing, who would see that Valerie Plame and her group were about to discover another illegal sale of nuke components and it would lead right back to "WHO DO YOU KNOW DICK???????"

In Nixon's day the plumbers came to be known as "the gang that couldn't shoot straignt...in other words, total imbeciles.

This administration has the gang that can't keep their lies straight.

IMHO the target never was Ambassador Wilson. It was always Valerie Plame and was very effective in stopping her entire network's investigations all over the world.


Ain't that right Dick?

I do hope Fitzgerald is reading this.

[rateyes]

86. That one I can buy...

without using tinfoil.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

134. Feith and OSP/OSI....the NeoCon Pentagon-based intell unit that....

...reported to Rummy-boy.

[MIMIC]

48. This is sure to grab the headlines again

...hopefully *keeps fingers crossed*

This scandal deserves to have the full attention of the news media.

[TacticalPeek]

54. What the front page looks like.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/print/asectionfron...

[Pallas180]

57. Dontcha LOVE it ? Another Woodward-Bernstein in the making at WaPo

Roberts front left and Plamegate front right.

GO WAPO!

[leftchick]

70. it is a beauty isn't it??

[janetle]

88. Gorgeous!

[dave29]

55. The connection everyone is missing here: Carl W. Ford Jr.

who changed the addressee from Grossman to Powell.

Carl W. Ford Jr is the man who got in front of the Committee hearings on Bolton and trashed him thoroughly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46436-20...

The State Department's former intelligence chief yesterday described John R. Bolton, President Bush's nominee for ambassador to the United Nations, as a "bully" who abused his authority and power, intimidated intelligence analysts, and damaged the integrity of the agency.

Bolton's behavior "brings real question to my mind about his suitability for high office," said Carl W. Ford Jr. He told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which is considering Bolton's nomination, that he is a loyal Republican, a staunch supporter of Bush and a "huge fan" of Vice President Cheney. "I'm as conservative as John Bolton is," Ford said. "But the fact is that the collateral damage and the personal hurt that he causes is not worth the price that had to be paid."

Democrats on the committee hoped that Ford's testimony would help persuade Sen. Lincoln D. Chafee (R-R.I.) to vote against the nomination. Chafee is seen as the panel's only Republican who might vote against Bolton and block the nomination from getting to the full Senate, where the GOP holds a 55 to 45 edge.

Ford called Bolton "a quintessential kiss-up, kick-down kind of guy. He's got a bigger kick, and it gets bigger and stronger the further down the bureaucracy he's kicking. And he stands out. I don't have any other example to give you of someone who acts this way," said Ford, who left the State Department in 2003 and is now a consultant with Cassidy and Associates in Washington.

[susu369]

63. Ah-hah

thanks for that reminder. I knew the name Carl W. Ford Jr rang a bell but didn't put it with the revoltin' Bolton committee hearings. Very interesting....

[alcibiades_mystery]

109. And this is a connection how?

[Moderator]

58. kick

[TomClash]

60. AND BUSH WAS ON THE PLANE . . .

to Africa when the memo was given to Powell, just seven days before Novak writes his column. Did Powell show the memo to Bush? Did Bush read the memo and then tell Rove to out Plame to retaliate against Wilson?

[bklyncowgirl]

62. Better yet--Could Bush have leaked it himself?

I've always thought that this was done by someone who was extremely nasty but also none too bright. George Bush fits that bill alot better than Karl Rove.

Rove is nasty as hell but no one can deny that he's very, very smart and very good at keeping his fingerprints off this sort of thing.

Perhaps Rove's role is basicly damage control. Bush (or Cheney?) let the cat out of the bag and Rove was trying to control the spin.

[leftchick]

72. yes, I believe the whole work up was cheney's idea

then chimpy sees the memo and goes into ballistic revenge mode and calls Karl. Libby is already in operation revenge/kill the wmd hunter mode from cheney's request. I hope we get to see those AF1 phone records!

[TomClash]

76. Distinctly possible

it certainly puts Bush much closer to the action. The question is: who was on that plane to Africa?

[bklyncowgirl]

79. Apparently Rove was not. Was Cheney and or Libby?

Which means Bush was operating without his brain.

[savemefromdumbya]

93. The new rule is anyone convicted of a crime is to be fired, so....

I saw this in the Boston Herald - it's funny!

http://news.bostonherald.com/talkBack/index.php?topic=1...

After Bush changed his rule on who could work in the Bush Administration, he and Dick Cheney will soon have to resign.

Under the old rule, anyone that had anything to do with the Plame leak was to be fired.

The new rule is anyone convicted of a crime is to be fired.

Both Bush and Cheney have previous DUI convictions.

Oh, well.

[EOTE]

112. Well, that depends on what your definition of is is.

* said "Anyone who is convicted of a crime" would be removed from his administration. Now you have to ask yourself, does he mean "is" as in "is and ever was", or "is as of now". Would republicans dare to use that one?

[Moochy]

117. Plausiblly deniable

Who knew being illiterate would be the basis for plausible deniability?

[wishlist]

64. This explains Fitzgerald's remark about retaliation against whistleblower

I can't remember Fitzgerald's exact remark but he said in essence that journalists should testify because they were not protecting a whistleblower by not testifying but protecting those who retaliated against a whistleblower (Wilson).

Seems like this could be a smoking gun memo since it does not discredit Wilson in his conclusions but makes clear that the State Dept and Carl Ford (INR) were also convinced the Niger story was false. No wonder they were so set on keeping all of this from becoming public last year before the election. Lack of cooperation from WH and journalists Miller and Cooper served to hold up these revelations long enough to allow these criminals in the WH to stay in power.

[sattahipdeep]

80. A a twist hu n/t

[Tennessee T]

65. US Harmed Info from Expert CIA

Plame! Plame! Plame! Plame! The subject is Plame!

Ex-officers: CIA leak may have harmed U.S.
Wednesday, July 20, 2005; Posted: 8:03 p.m. EDT (00:03 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Eleven former intelligence officers say the leak of CIA officer Valerie Plame's identity may have damaged national security and the government's ability to gather intelligence.

The former officers made their views known in a three-page statement to congressional leaders.

They said the Republican National Committee has circulated suggestions for officials to deal with the Plame case by focusing on the idea that Plame was not working undercover and legally merited no protection.

Thousands of U.S. intelligence officers work at desks in the Washington area every day whose identities are shielded, as Plame's was when her identity was leaked by Bush administration officials, the 11 former officers said.

The former officers' statement comes amid revelations that top presidential aide Karl Rove was involved in leaking Plame's identity to columnist Robert Novak and Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper.

Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis Libby, also was a source for Cooper on the Plame story.

The Plame leaks followed public criticism of President Bush's White House by Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson.

Wilson, a former ambassador and career diplomat, suggested administration officials had manipulated intelligence to justify going to war in Iraq.

A criminal investigation into the leaks is under way.

More on CNN.com

[annabanana]

68. Well, Hey there Tennessee T..

This is some juicy story, innit?
Welcome to DU


(I usually like to call it "Rovegate" or "treasongate".. since Plame is one of the injured parties)

[Demeter]

66. There Are So Many Smoking Guns Now

that you can't see the forest or the trees!

[wishlist]

67. And the Republicans in Congress refuse to hold inquiries about any of it

I hope Americans get the message that there will be no oversight or accountability for wrongdoing and corruption as long as Republicans control both the White House and the Congress.

[sattahipdeep]

81. They need another North. n/t

[mandomom]

71. Even if, arguendo,

the claim it didn't apply to "covert" status, at the very least they knew they were dealing with classified information. And why was that info to be declassified, per Rove's conversation to Cooper? Does the Bush WH declassify for purely political reasons? This is, after all, the most "classified" WH since Nicon, only more so.

[Beetwasher]

74. So Much For Changing The Subject! HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

N/T

[Laura PourMeADrink]

77. And Fitz is going to whip that smirk off Condi's face too. Supoenaed Gaggl

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/20/16340/8649

DID CONDI PUSH THE "WILSON'S WIFE SENT HIM STORY"?
By daxman
From: Top Reader Blogs
Press gaggle transcripts show that it was Condoleezza Rice, not Ari Fleischer, who was pushing the press to look into the reasons the CIA sent Wilson to Niger.

[Generator]

94. Oh be still my heart

From your link:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/7/20/16340/8649

Snip~

So Condi uses a barely-related question to bring up the issue about why Wilson was sent to Niger. She offers the news that he was not sent by the White House and then literally prods the reports to go ask the CIA why he was sent.


Then, when a reporter tries to change the subject she prods the reporters to ask more with: “Are you sure you're through with this?”

Did Condi see the memo and join (maybe even start) the effort to “out Wilson” on why he got the job? If Fitzgerald is looking into conspiracy issues, even Condi may be in trouble.


***
I would love to bring her down....and this pretty much proves it to me (legally I don't think so) that she was on the "get Wilson, get Plame" team with the rest.

[Supersedeas]

97. was the good Professor among the others that Coop and Miller spoke with

[The Night Owl]

83. Now, Bush will have to double his efforts to polish the Turdblossom.

[obxhead]

85. 5 to 40 years

with a mandatory minimum of 5 years for distribution of more than 1/2 ounce of pot in Virginia. This scum will get off with a pardon I'm sure, but I am absolutely outraged by the fact that this crime is only punishable by 10 years. How did we get here? How is our system so broken that it may be beyond repair. May God please stop blessing Amerika. It doesn't seem to be helping.

[janetle]

87. This was in my newspaper today--YES!!

The Seattle Times has been covering this everyday and sometimes on the front page.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/20023931...

And with little pics of Wilson and Rove to get your attention!

[rrrevolution]

89. Did Anybody Tell Mehlman? (Time to Change the RNC Talking Points)

Mehlman is a talking points machine who never responds to questions asked. Time to cut him off and tell him he won't be allowed back to use free tv/cable exposure to make partisan attacks and never answer the questions he is asked. (He can buy a political ad and ramble on all he wants).

Oh well -- Mehlman has never let evidence or proof stop him from making statements that are outrageous lies. The arrogance of the RNC is evident from their willingness to tell falsehoods which have already been proven false.

[janetle]

92. No matter what Mehlman says....

...he is completely annoying and unappealing. So luckily, it takes away from everything that comes out of his mouth.

[savemefromdumbya]

91. SLAM DUNK - Mr Tenet?

what happened to Mr Slam Dunk? You can fool people some of the time but not all of the time?

[rrrevolution]

95. Is Tenet feeding Fitzgerald's Investigation . . .

Boy this could be a good one.
Bush makes Tenet fall on his sword and take blame for the inclusion of 16 words regarding Niger/uranium purchase rumor in the SOTU address. Then Bush gives Tenet a medal upon his retirement.

It has been surmised that Tenet reportedly is helping orchestrate former and current CIA agents efforts' to expose the Bush/Cheney/Rummy neo-con cabal's attempt to dismantle the Agency. The CIA is in a desperate struggle to remain viable, and not just a political arm of the neo-con cabal.

[savemefromdumbya]

118. I guess we have to back up a bit

Administration officials said Tenet sent a memo to the Justice Department raising a series of questions about whether a leaker had broken federal law by disclosing the identity of an undercover officer. The CIA request was reported Friday night by MSNBC.com. Administration sources familiar with the matter said the Justice Department is determining whether a formal investigation is warranted.

An intelligence official said Tenet "doesn't like leaks."

The CIA request could reopen the rift between the White House and the intelligence community that emerged this summer when Bush and his senior aides blamed Tenet for the inclusion of the now-discredited uranium claim -- the so-called "16 words" -- in the State of the Union address in January
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/6/21355/03466

[Botany]

96. Front Page ..... above the fold!

Let us see how they try to spin this one. The CIA is pissed and
now will work to bring * & company down.

[buddha8]

98. no way to get to him

Alot of gloating this morning it seems. Sorry but there is really no way that Rove gets trapped. He is the government. This particular regime is a highly disciplined one-party system that is also now working to magnify the powers of a new domestic security system known as the NSS. Sound familiar? People need to come out of denial. Does anyone really beleive that the man who singlehandedly ushered both the Republican Party and its faux straw man into power is going to be brought down? This is as likely as Hitler being taken down for Parlimentary indiscretions in 1934. Think outside the normal liberal box. What we have to look forward to is much greater censorship of the press in the coming years, an extension of the 2nd bush-cheney term to an 'emergency' term, the military deployed on our streets, martial law and roundups of political dissidents in one form or another. There is absolutely no recourse under the present system for justice. None. The regime is dedicated to literally all of the characteristic tactics of 30s Nazism. They are now disseminating so many big lies that they have successfully slammed the system down. They lie whenever it suits their political need and the Media services the lie and it both exhausts and confuses an ignorant public. They know exactly what they are doing. The lies being told now are as outrageous as the lies Hitler disseminated in the run up to invading Poland. The scapegoating of liberals occuring now is a version of the scapegoating of Jews back then. The formation of the Gestapo as an enforcer wing of the political will of the Nazi Party is being done right now under John Negroponte who heads up the new NSS. The suspension of habeus corpus, unreasonable search and seizure,use of military on the homefront,widespread creation of fear and panic,the subjugation of the Media, the common and regular use of obvious Big Lies before an ignorant and easily manipulated Public, how much more dire does this need to get? Rove in this context only appears to be in trouble. But when looked at in a broader perspective of power and control there is no way he ever goes. Even if he is indicted he will stay and they will disseminate more lies and canonize him.

There is a slight possibility if someone could uncover the Bush Slush Fund that this gang of thugs could be challenged. Americans love a good bribery scandal almost as much as sex talk and soaps. If a minor player came forward or was exposed as on the take then you could begin to follow a money trail. I am convinced that Cheney is funneling large sums to buy the silence of all players from Tenet to the people involved in the Norad 9/11 stand down. Probably dozens and dozens getting promisary notes or monies in one form or another. Easily all the cash that is mysteriously missing in Iraq could be a source for the Fund. If intrepid journalists of which few remain could uncover the Slush then we would have real trouble for this regime. The people don't mind war criminals and they enjoy subconsciously a good killing. Racism against nonwhites runs extremely deep in our heritage. Torching thousands of hapless Arabs is a matter of slight indifference to the average U.S.A. Today reader. But uncover a bribery plot that feeds into the White House and everyone's instinct for greed,gossip and salaciousness is aroused.

[Ernesto]

99. kick for the doubters!

[0007]

100. .....and Peter King says that Rove should be awarded a medal

and Joe Wilson should be shot? God, this man should do jail time for such a statement!

[Jack Rabbit]

101. Huge is understating it

From the article:

Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret.

Game, set and match.

[SuperWonk]

102. When will we know....

What Fitzgerald knows???
The memo might of had "secret" spelled out... but who leaked it to whom???

[Jack Rabbit]

104. When he's ready

He's no doubt seen this and is looking into who leaked it to whom; he may already have answers.

We know that at least Rove and Libby were leaking information about Ms. Plame to the press.

[volitionx]

103. Most employees of the CIA have no loyalty to Bush...

Because they'll be there after the fool is out of office. They are loyal to the Agency, not the Commander in Thief, and they are pissed that he blamed them for 9/11 intel "failures", Iraq WMD intel "failures", etc.

Bush is smearing the reputation of the CIA, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they choose to fight back, covertly or overtly.

[Jack Rabbit]

107. Why should they?

The regime set up the intelligence community to be the fall guy for the regime's lies. Then these aardvarks sacrificed an undercover operative in a effort to silence criticism.

Would the regime have a problem if most of its case for war against Iraq had panned out? Imagine the reaction to the story of sixteen words finding their way into the 2003 SOTU that was based on discredited information if our troops had found Iraq to be a cesspool of weapons grade biochemical toxins, nuclear weapons under construction and archives full of documentation about cash, weapons and training given to al Qaida. Would anybody have cared if they got one little detail about a reported sale of yellowcake to Saddam's regime wrong? Wilson's article in The New York Times, assuming he would have bothered to write it, would have been greeted by the public with a big collective yawn.

As it is, the regime has some explaining to do beyond a yellowcake deal that wasn't: like how they could have possibly gotten everything wrong.

The CIA and the rest of the intelligence community shouldn't have to take the rap for the OSP's dirty work.

[robertpaulsen]

105. Walter Pincus. He was one of the 6 reporters who got the leak pre 7/14.

And I believe he testified. I wonder what other inside info he'll be pulling out of his sleeve.

[boddhi]

106. What's wrong with this picture?

Rove has disappeared from GoogleNews and has 4,487 stories related to Roberts. I have never seen the number so high. They only search 4,500 news sources - I know there's duplicates but...

[Spazito]

121. ROFL, you must be typing in the wrong key word, I found 9600

listings under the key "CIA Leak". I would change your key word if you want to continue to check and see the listings:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=CIA+Leak&btn...

[boddhi]

122. just meant the home page

where there are numbers to indicate the total number of stories in the past 24 hours

[boddhi]

108. 4-1 odds that Rove will be dismissed or resign

Any takers?

oh, this is just too much fun:

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=992...

Odds maker sets odds on Karl Rove's future:-
WASHINGTON | July 21, 2005 3:11:34 AM IST


Professional odds makers have entered the political controversy over White House aide Karl Rove, offering 4-1 odds he will be dismissed or resign.

Rove is accused of leaking the name of an uncover CIA operative to Washington reporters in 2003 to discredit an outspoken critic of the Bush administration's plans to go to war in Iraq. Deliberate outing of a CIA agent can a federal offense.

Sportsbook.com Wednesday set odds that Rove, President Bush's long-time political adviser and deputy chief of staff, will not be fired or resign at 1-6.

Much of the world continues to be fixated on American political developments. So, it only makes sense to give bettors the chance to wager on the outcome of issues like the Rove scandal or yesterday's Supreme Court nomination, says Alex Czajkowski, Marketing Director, Sportsbook.com.

[the phantom shouting]

110. Has Powell Testified Before the Grand Jury?

Has he spoken out on this Air Force One Africa trip? Does anybody know where the hell he's been since he left office? Here's a tip for some enterprising reporter: do a piece on Colin Powell's disappearing act. He appears now to be crucial to unraveling the Rovegate story, and I for one can't wait to see him testify at the senate hearings that are most assuredly looming in our future.

[robertpaulsen]

111. Yes, last August.

CIA Leak Probe: Powell's Grand-Jury Appearance

By Michael Isikoff and Eve Conant
Newsweek
Aug. 9 issue - Secretary of State Colin Powell recently testified before a federal grand jury investigating the leak of the identity of CIA covert officer Valerie Plame, NEWSWEEK has learned. Powell's appearance on July 16 is the latest sign the probe being conducted by prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is highly active and broader than has been publicly known. Sources close to the case say prosecutors were interested in discussions Powell had while with President George W. Bush on a trip to Africa in July 2003, just before Plame's identity was leaked to columnist Robert Novak. A senior State Department official confirmed that, while on the trip, Powell had a department intelligence report on whether Iraq had sought uranium from Niger—a claim Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, discounted after a trip to Niger on behalf of the CIA. The report stated that Wilson's wife had attended a meeting at the CIA where the decision was made to send Wilson to Niger, but it did not mention her last name or undercover status. At the time, White House officials were seeking to discredit Wilson, who had become a public critic of the Bush administration. There's no indication Powell is a subject of the probe; the department official said the secretary never talked to Novak about the Plame matter. Still, sources say the decision to question Powell shows the thoroughness with which Fitzgerald is conducting the probe—and that knowledge about Plame was circulated at the highest levels of the administration. Though most lawyers thought the investigation was nearly complete, sources say Fitzgerald has recently recalled witnesses before the grand jury—apparently to ask about issues raised by a new Senate intelligence committee report that seemed to contradict some of Wilson's public statements about Plame's role in his trip to Niger.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5570006/site/newsweek/

[the phantom shouting]

124. So Fitzgerald has known about this memo for a year...

...and he is still questioning people about it. That is fascinating. It sounds like the answer to the whole mess lies in examining the calls made to major players (both in the administration and journalists) from the people on the Africa flight. Damn, this thing just keeps getting more intense every day. Does anybody else out there feel like a 5-ton weight is lifting off of their shoulders with every new report?

[dchill]

113. Recommend!

Kick

[Bumblebee]

115. Good Froomkin piece

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/20...

[skip fox]

135. S is for Secret. Rove is for collaboration. I is for Indictment.

The more we know, as we did today that at least the original discoverer of the Plame-Wilson-Niger connection HAD to know it was secret, incidates that there will be multiple indictments for "high administration officials" in Fitzgerald's final report including at least two for Rove.

I say this because in learning about multiple leakers for the six reported contacts and multiple confirming sources, it becomes apparent what occurred. One administrative official discovered the Plame-Wilson-Niger relationship, took it to the White House Iraq Group, turned it over to Rove, who on the spot assigned tasks to different primary leakers/sources assuring no source called another source's contact (so as not to appear too eager), that no source's "pitch" was exactly the same but that their information was all given in an "off hand" manner (e.g., "Don't go too far out on this Wilson thing, I don't want you burnt").

Simply "doing the numbers" has told me this all along, but as new information comes out my analysis is being confirmed. We knew there were at least 6 initial leaks/contacts. Now we know that there were at least three different initial leakers (Fleicher Rove, Libby) and of the 6 reporters 4 are confirmed as Miller, Novak, Cooper, and Pincus. We also realize that there must have been a number of other confirming sources (because you cannot assure who the reporter will call for confirmation).

A master-mind would have been necessary to coordinate all these calls by different people AND would have to insure that a number of other officials were ready and willing to confirm the initial leaks.

They would have gone to Rove immediately and he, probably in an emergency of the White House Iraq Group, assigned the roles, the stories and the stances, etc.

So he not only leaked by was the mastermind of a conspiracy to leak.

We can only hope he lead a cover-up and committed perjury as well.

[Naipes]

136. They will blame it on Ari Fleischer.

That's my prediction.

[RSchewe]

137. CNN had a pretty good piece on the Plame leak on Lou Dobbs

Hopefully Crooks and Liars will have it up or Dem Bloggers. It covered the Air Force One timelines and the recent memo. I just caught the latter part of it, but the part I saw was pretty good.

[RSchewe]

140. RawStory: Bloomberg to reveal Rove, Libby gave false testimony

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Report_Bloomberg_to_revea...

[savemefromdumbya]

146. This IS interesting

Has the wall St journal done its article yet?

[Trajan]

144. Walter Pincus AGAIN ....

Pincus Pincus Pincus Pincus Pincus ! .....

I know he has his detractors here, for his past, and perhaps rightly so ...

BUT Walter Pincus IS the man .....

Thanks Walter .... Again ......