Finger Scanning At Disney Parks Causes Concern

[cyberpj]

Finger Scanning At Disney Parks Causes Concern

POSTED: 5:12 pm EDT July 14, 2005
UPDATED: 10:47 am EDT July 15, 2005

ORLANDO, Fla. -- The addition of finger scanning technology at the entrances of Walt Disney World theme parks for all visitors has caused concern among privacy advocates, according to a Local 6 News report.

I think it's a step in the wrong direction," Civil Liberties Union spokesman George Crossley said. "I think it is a step toward collection personal information on people regardless of what Disney says.

Tourists visiting Disney theme parks in Central Florida must now provide their index and middle fingers to be scanned before entering the front gates.

The scans were formerly for season pass holders but now everyone must provide their fingers, Local 6 News reported. They have reportedly been phased in for all ticket holders during the past six months, according to a report.

http://www.local6.com/news/4724689/detail.html

[shanti]

1. another reason

to stay away from florida....*sigh*

[tsuki]

2. Another reason to avoid Disneyland. eom

[ace2u_in_MD]

63. This is not at DisneyLand at this time...

Only at the Walt Disny World complex in Florida...

[whatever4]

3. Insane. We won't be going either, ever, now. nt

[no_hypocrisy]

4. I think that "Uncle Walt" would've approved.

[AndyTiedye]

87. I Think "Uncle Walt" is Spinning in His Grave

[ace2u_in_MD]

121. Maybe, maybe not...

Walt had never envisioned (as far as my research has gone) multiple theme parks even on the Florida property. Walt's vision for florida included recreation, housing (rental, not ownership), commerce, industry and transportation in one unified environment. You would never need to leave the property once you moved there, and were employed there. Retirement? You had to move away...

[jim3775]

5. Why??

To prevent ticket fraud? Why didn’t they just improve counterfeit countermeasures on the tickets? From a business perspective this seems like a silly and expensive thing to do, from a privacy perspective this is scary.

[cyberpj]

7. Your question and your suggestion is valid. So

I'm thinking Jeb and Florida and Disney are opting to test market the whole operation, get Americans used to it in a friendly atmosphere before it become common practice everywhere in the country.

[Theres-a]

12. I'm thinking that's very likely

We are being conditioned.At least that's what I think.

[htuttle]

6. Doesn't Disney have their own paramilitary police force now?

Like 'DisneyCorps' or something like that?

I've heard that they have almost absolute control of the county that Disney World is in.

[xxqqqzme]

11. they very nearly

have complete control in Anaheim, Orange County, CA. And I remember this first time I went 2 dizzyland, we drove through orange groves!

[Lorien]

45. "Reedy creek improvement district" is Disney's own local government

Disney world is pretty much a self contained city, but no, we don't have a "paramilitary police force". We have fairly good security here; sort of a must since a number of "guests" at the parks have committed rape and murder over the past 20 years.

[NYC]

132. Yes.

I recently read the book, Disney: The Mouse Betrayed. Very interesting. Not what Walt Disney had envisioned.

[cyberpj]

8. NOTE: The link to the article also takes you to a survey poll. nt.

[montana_hazeleyes]

25. I just voted and those against are leading

at 59%.

[Radio_Lady]

128. Against now up to 60%.

[wallwriter]

9. I'll show those fuckers at Disney which finger they can scan...

[Cha]

24. I got busted in the parking lot

at disneyland in the '80's..bad zidzi! Went out about midnight with my then boyfriend to toke a couple and we were zoomed in on by the disney PO-lice!

Looking back right now..I can see we were lucky not to be taken to jail..and only thrown out of the park!

If Americans stood up to this whichever,finger scanning..disney would lose biz and drop it like a hot mouse turd!

[LibDemAlways]

33. You'd have a hard time getting busted in the

Disneyland parking lot now. Once they've taken your $10.00 parking fee and pointed you into a space, they don't give a rat's ass what happens to you or what you do in there.

The football field sized multi-level parking structure they use now has no visible security at night when people are returning to their cars. I've been many times with my daughter and never seen any security personnel. It's cavernous in there, too, and acres of parked cars provide good cover - which could be good or bad depending on one's intentions.

[Cha]

42. We didn't see them, either...

they were zoom lensing us from a motel across the street.

It was like Gang Busters..I would bet they're still there, albeit, Undercover! It was all very cloak and Dagger!

[LibDemAlways]

46. There is probably camera surveillance to some extent,

but I sense a definite disinterest in the "guests" once they leave the park and have spent their last dime on a cheap souvenir that may not make it home intact. Twenty years ago the parking lot trams actually delivered tired, weary travellers close to their cars. Now the return tram stops yards from the parking lot entrance, and once you're dropped off, you're on your own and may be in for a long hike. To add insult to injury, sometimes the escalators are shut down and you have to hike up them as well.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

117. Unfortunately Americans will not stand against it

But will complacently put their fingers on the scanner. The rationale will be the same as allowing gov't access to out library records. If one isn't a terrorist or doing something wrong why worry about it.

[ace2u_in_MD]

122. But this is not the governement...

I would agree if this were a government entity. It is not.

[anotherdrew]

10. what are they scanning for?

Is this just so people can get on rides without having to carry a card with a magnetic strip on it around? I don't see any database they could match these fingerprint scans with... Has the FBI's fingerprint database been converted to 'jive' with modern electronic scanners and opened to public use?

[cyberpj]

13. To get us all used to it - in a friendly environment first. nt.

[whatever4]

14. Yup. In long lines, patiently. Nothing to fear here... Next? nt

[high density]

18. Supposedly it's not a finger print scan

According to the article, it's capturing the overall geometry of the fingers, not the finger print. Disney reports having to do this so they can "help keep track of who is using legitimate tickets." Huh?

[Gormy Cuss]

20. So, when you buy a ticket they capture the geometry of your fingers

Then when you use the ticket, it's referenced. Oh please. Pay Disney a load of cash so that I can provide them with a biometric ID. As long as people put up with this, Disney will continue to use it. Let's see what happens.

The fact that they rely on the geometry of two fingers suggests that the markers are coarse otherwise one finger would provide enough detail to verify. That sounds closer to the broad fingerprint ID rather than a full fingerprint classification. I'll bet that if this doesn't cause a consumer backlash they'll eventually use a more sophisticated full fingerprint scan instead.

[SkipNewarkDE]

103. Disney has had this thing for years for season ticket holders

It is not doing a full finger print scan, but rather the geometry of your fingers, ie. as I recall you slide two fingers into this thing with posts kind of like in a V configuration and it measures them in some way.

I think people are getting all up in arms about, well, nothing.

[salvorhardin]

19. It's a different technology

The FBI's database records the whole fingerprint as an image. The technology employed by Disney just scans a few points on the index and middle finger then uses a formula to generate a number. The number is not even unique to each person, but is large enough where you can say that if two different finger scans produce the same number it probably belongs to the same person. This makes it useful for temporary identification among a relatively small group of people within a relatively small space (like a theme park), but not at all useful for permanent identification among the general population in a large geographic area (such as the whole country).

The finger scan is not the only form of identification Disney is using. They are still using a pass. The finger scan is only used in conjunction with the pass. This is known as 2-factor identification which is more reliable than single factor identification. There are three basic ways of identifying someone -- something you are, something you have, something you know. A password is something you know. A pass is something you have. A finger is something you are (well, a pirce of who you are anyway). Disney is using the last two methods.

You are not required to use the finger scans either. You can choose to use a photo ID. Neither are children under 10 or disabled people who can't use the finger scanners required to use them.

So, this is not evil technology. It does not uniquely identify you. It can not be used to identify you outside of Disney. It does not work with the FBI's fingerprint database. You aren't being forced to use it. Whether or not it is good security is a whole other question.

This site provides a little more information: http://allearsnet.com/pl/fingerscan.htm

Here's more information about the technology: http://www.epa.gov/safewater/watersecurity/guide/biometrichandrecognition.html

[Gormy Cuss]

21. Thank you for the more thorough background.

It still begs the question why Disney chose this over other forms of secondary confirmation. We all are used to passwords, so an ATM-like system would be less threatening. The question I have is, why as a consumer would I agree to this? Where is the benefit to me? It's not likely Disney is going to pass on savings. Interesting that the Florida article said it is now REQUIRED, not optional.

I am concerned that people will become used to this relatively benign technology and not pay attention when the inevitable upgrade is made to more unique identification.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

26. How often do people forget their passwords and pins?

Also, can you imagine the difficulty of giving a pin to kids younger than say, 8? Parents would have to remember the pin for their kids and enter them for their kids. A system would have to be introduced to retrieve lost passwords. If you give 1 pin to each family, you've just decreased the accuracy of the system significantly.

This is sort of a built in code. You can't very well leave your hands behind.

As far as your last point, I agree. But the first step is to make sure everyone knows the difference between this and actual identification that can be used outside of the theme park. We're not helping things by having kneejerk reactions to all forms of identification. People will get used to the outcry and when there is REALLY a problem, "boy who cried wolf" syndrome will kick in.

[Gormy Cuss]

31. Point taken.

I recall reading that young children are being excluded in the fingerprint system so the same standard could be used with PINs. Except for seasonal ticket holders, users would only be required to remember the PIN for a very short period of time and are accustomed to retaining passwords in everyday life so the problem of forgetting should be minimal. Apparently they still accept photo ID as a secondary ID so there is an existing system to address this issue.

The question is, why do it at all? From a consumer prospective, there is only benefit if it simplifies the process or reduces the cost. From a corporate point of view, the simple answer is that Disney cuts its losses from fraud. If that's the sole purpose, Disney must be experiencing losses that exceed the cost of installing and maintaining this system. I suspect there is another, larger corporate benefit to the data capture, but that's just a guess.

I wish that we were confronted with a boy crying wolf syndrome. Too few people care at all about the current gross invasion of privacy at the hands of private companies. The whole "ID theft" racket is framed as our fault because we don't shred our bills or are careless with our wallets when in fact the responsibility for the growth of wide scale identity misuse sits squarely on business because there is no compelling business reason to safeguard the data.

[salvorhardin]

60. This is not an invasion of privacy

For it to be an invasion of privacy the system would need to do two things, 1) uniquely identify a person within the general population and 2) cross index that identification to other forms of identification. Neither of those conditions are fulfilled. Disney won't know you're cheating on them with that slutty Busch Gardens. ;-)

As for why Disney chose to use 'something you are' rather than 'something you know' it's pretty simple. Biometrics is the newest fad in security. It's not inherently more secure than any other form of identification. In fact, it's pretty simple to fake fingerprints.

For what it's worth, two-factor identification can be pretty easy to derail too. I won't go into it because that gets away from the topic at hand which is that this is not an invasion of privacy and for what Disney is using it for, it works well enough.

Here are some links to what computer security and cryptography expert Bruce Schneier has written on these topics over the years. Schneier's Cryptogram newsletter should be required reading IMHO.

Bruce Schneier's Cryptogram: http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram.html
Schneier on biometrics: http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-9808.html#biometrics
Schneier on two-factor ID: http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0503.html#2
Schneier on faking fingerprints: http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0205.html#5
The paper Schneier mentions above: http://cryptome.org/gummy.htm

On edit: I forgot that I wanted to mention that you are correct that businesses are often at fault in cases of privacy breaches. Part of the problem is that they are often incompetent when it comes to managing the security of their own databases. Another aspect of this problem is their hoarding instinct when it comes to information about their customers. Often they collect and store information that is completely irrelevant to their business. Further still, the greed factor is huge. Data aggregation companies pay good money for customer data which they information mine and sell (many times to the same companies that sold them data in the first place. BUT, and I can not stress this enough, Disney's use of this technology is not an invasion of privacy.

[Gormy Cuss]

114. I was speaking of privacy invasion in general

I read your earlier explanation of the geometry confirming the geometry technology isn't, but as I said before, it sets the stage for acceptance of future IDing technology that does. For that reason, it is irrelevant to me that the current technology doesn't violate privacy. It does raise privacy concerns for the reason I stated (and probably a few others that smart people around here can list.)

As I said before, I suspect Disney is collecting considerably more benefit from this system beyond loss prevention. I'm just not in a position to say so. Disney is assigning a finger geometry signature to you. That may just identify you as belonging to a large group (similar to say, blood type) but it is an added data point and has value. What prevents Disney from 'sharing' this info with ChoicePoint? It may not uniquely identify you, but when someone using your name at another venue turns out to have the same geometry, that is a good data bit for marketers, better than matching based on address. It doesn't prove it's the same individual but it increases the odds especially if you have an uncommon name. John Smiths are safe, but the Xaphod Smiths aren't.

[jayctravis]

137. The technology is used for rapid general speed of validating

a ticket. Essentially the process takes as long as a quick handshake.

[stickdog]

36. It's bullshit. We are talking about an "E" ticket here, not a nuclear

detonator. Who cares if you give your ticket to somebody else to use? Didn't Disney get the money when you bought the ticket?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

44. The customers care if their ticket is STOLEN.

They want it to be replaced and if it isn't, they get angry. I saw this problem at DisneyQuest. People would forget their tickets or have them stolen and then go and demand new ones. Disney not only wants the revenue from this ticket, they want the revenue from each subsequent ticket.

Not only that, they want to prevent ticket sharing. More revenue lost.

[stickdog]

53. Well then, shoud we use the same methods for all US currency?

Just think:

If you're issued a $20, only you can spend it! No incentive to steal cash anymore!

If you lose it, no biggie! Just have a retinal scan done and the nanny state will replace it for you "knowing" that it was your money!

All you have to do in return is simply learn to love Big Brother!

[ace2u_in_MD]

64. It is part of the purchase agreement...

You are buying admission for yourself, not the ticket holder... The ticket is not a bearer instrument anymore.

[Dr Ron]

127. Disney got the money for one person

The tickets are not inteneded to be used by multiple people to avoid each buying their own, which is Disney's right.

The alternative would be to requirement a new ticket each time you enter the park. The current system which allows people to come and go from the parks, or go to multiple parks the same day, is a great convenience for guests. For this to work, Disney needs security measures to ensure that it really is the purcheser returning to the park, and not someone else using the same ticket.

[Yupster]

93. Plus couldn't you just give your pin

to someone else?

[JusticeForAll]

58. Fraud too

You could very well give your ID card and your password to someone else. This is to protect Disney not you.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

23. THANK YOU!

Geezh, talk about kneejerk reactions.

[stickdog]

35. Why oh why, have they gone to all this trouble?

What problem were they experiencing before that conjured this crap up?

Can we expect the same every time we use a credit card or even receive and spend a $20?

[Lorien]

48. Fake passes and transfered passes have become a problem

scanning fingers takes less time than asking to see ID (plus not everyone brings their ID into a theme park-and children don't carry ID).

[stickdog]

54. So don't accept fake passes. Problem solved.

What's wrong with transferring passes that have already been paid for again?

[Lorien]

56. And how do they determine what's black market?

Transfered passes= resold illegally by employees or others.

See post #19. There's no reason to be so paranoid.

[stickdog]

57. Um, the same way any business controls gift certificates?

By stamping them with serial numbers, giving certain supervisors the responsibility for certain serial numbers and tying those serial numbers to the revenue stream they create?

This isn't rocket science, you know. This is basic stuff that's been figured out long ago. You don't need finger scans to control gift certificates.

[ace2u_in_MD]

69. Gift Certificates are bearer instruments...

Park admissions is not in Disney's system...

[stickdog]

102. Hand stamps protect park admissions. You are talking about ride tickets.

Again, why aren't paid for ride tickets bearer instruments in "Disney's system"?

Just wondering. Is it really so important to Disney that unused ride coupons are not transferred that they feel justified in forcing their patrons (and they now have several less of these, if you include my family) to have their fingers scanned to protect against this practice?

Just wondering ...

[ace2u_in_MD]

107. Disney ignord the issue for a time...

Until to reached a level that was impacting to the revenue and image.

People are missing the point. Disney offers a discount on the daily admission when you purchase admission media with increased number of days.

[flaminbats]

59. there is nothing paranoid about a free market.

If I buy a pass or ticket believing I can make money by selling it, that is my business. How does restricting those who use a pass limited by a time restriction increase profits for Disney? Why can't I allow friends to have my pass if I no longer wish to use it?

[ace2u_in_MD]

71. You CAN resell Disney Tickets...

If you want to by entering into a business relationship with Disney to become a licensed ticket agent.

What you are looking to do is along the lines of scalpers of sporting events and concerts. And that is a whole other thread...

[flaminbats]

95. maybe so..but why should my taxes be used to prosecute?

Disney can change any contract I sign, but why should my money be used for buying a ticket and to throw me in prison? Why should a buyer be prosecuted because of a changing agreement..but not the seller?

[ace2u_in_MD]

109. I have not seen anything regarding proscutions...

The story talks about admission media and biometrics...

I did not see where they would cart off to jail someone using tickets bought on the secondary market.

[ace2u_in_MD]

111. Steps Disney is taking to control the secondary market...

A few years ago, a group formed to make all the reservations for the castle breakfast with the princess characters. They started to get them for friends, then any extra's were ebay'd off to cover their "phone costs". The ringleader of the group posted on the internet that people would need to go to them and BEG for reservations. Disney got wind, started canceling multiple ressies made under the same name and then started to require credit card confirmations and matched the card to the party at check-in.

Disney is taking steps to control their image. Who will the people blame if they buy bogus tickets? They blame Disney, not the scum who scammed them. I have seen people scream at the cast members when the admission media turned out to be expired or exhausted.

[Yupster]

94. If you buy a season pass, it's supposed to be for you

A person could lend them to 10 friends and relatives by the end of the summer and that would cost Disney plenty.

[jayctravis]

138. Honestly, Disney is surprisingly lenient in enforcing the passes

at least the times when I've seen any sort of friction about the process. Their admission process has always included a multiple day pass with the caveat that the purchased days of admission never expire. I have given partially used multi-day tickets to different members of my family months and years after initially buing them and never met with any problems. I suppose the computer might be told to ignore visits with a lengthy period of time between them. Now I would assume if you have a 4-day pass they *could* ask for id each time, but usually the greeter's job is to keep the lines moving smoothly. As someone said, it's not the border patrol.

[Lorien]

47. Sea World and Busch Gardens also use the technology

but they don't have as high a profile, so I guess the press is giving them a pass on the issue.

Thanks for the clarification!

[girl gone mad]

49. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned it,

but I get the idea that they are also doing this in an effort to thwart terrorism.

Selling unexpired passes on ebay has been a problem, and they've already taken other measures to try to put an end to that. The finger scanning helps deter people from buying and selling used park passes. I'm sure Disney isn't going to mention that terrorism concerns might be a motivating factor in their decision to adopt this technology because they don't want to scare anyone away, but by making it more difficult for someone to enter the park completely anonymously, they are targeting would-be terrorists.

[salvorhardin]

66. I think you are correct

although I'm not sure that this would really prevent a terrorist from carrying out their objective, but it is an example of "show security" much like most of the so-called security in airports is an elaborate show put on for the passengers. It does little to ensure any real security. If the air lines were interested in real security, cockpit doors would be reinforced against intrusion.

But... Disney does have a genuine interest in ascertaining which people are allowed into their theme park and this is pretty effective most of the time in that regard.

It seems to be the finger scan that freaks people out. I don't know how often I can say it, but this is not an unique identification and if you don't like it, you aren't being forced to use it. At the very worst, you can say "screw you Disney" and not go to their theme parks.

Also, as I mention up stream, biometrics is something of a fad. It is deceptively appealing and is being pushed by some very large corporations. Even Microsoft is getting into the act.
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/31/1457226&tid=172&tid=191&tid=4

[girl gone mad]

100. I don't think it would do much to prevent a terrorist..

who was set on the act, but it would go a long way towards clearing Disney of liability and perhaps towards identifying any people involved.

I do wonder how accurate biometrics are. I think facial recogintion software is relatively easy to fool. I bet if people really wanted to get around this system they could, with artificial fingers or something similar.

[AlwaysQuestion]

78. Yes, the waters are being tested

It doesn't much matter if they're scanning a mere few points,only two digits, whatever. The point is the process. Get people used to doing what is expected of them. Soften the plebes up. In fact, get a campaign going showing just how innocuous the plan is. Only the paranoid could possibly object--and no one wants to be known as paranoid. Get the people themselves to rationalize why the scanning is a good thing (my god, someone here has already started of their own volition). Peer pressure invariably works and besides if the scanning isn't initiated, god knows what will happen. They'll have to raise ticket prices and we don't want that.

If the people don't react by staying away in droves as others have suggested and the Disney plan succeeds, the scheme will undoubtedly spread to other places; be modified for more accuracy; be honed again and again until voila, full compliance providing all information Big Brother needs to further control you.

Again, the sheep lose.

[fob]

79. So you could take an emery board and "sand" off some features of

your true fingerprint and the scanner would "think" it was a valid print and generate a number anyway?

[jobycom]

97. You mean Disney's not in cahoots with the Knights Templars and BushCo

to steal our very souls?

I don't believe it. The world just HAS to be coming to an end. Stop telling me otherwise.

[woodsprite]

81. They don't really need to match it.

We just got our tickets, they have all your info - all ours, all our kids - firstname, lastname, age printed right on the receipt. I'm sure it's encoded into the card. All they need to do is compile the database of fingerprints and store it with the info.

We go down in August for 10 days. Figure it will probably be our last visit or 2nd to last visit. Five years ago they were doing something like this, even though we weren't annual pass holders. We paid for 5 parkhopper tickets then with no expiration. Our guest left a day early and I tried to use hers to get in on the day we left (our tickets were used up the day before we pulled out because we did a water park) to go get something from one of the gift shops and I couldn't do it, even though we had been the ones who had paid for the ticket. I still have it if she ever goes with us again, it had the no expiration option on it.

[Yupster]

92. I understood it for season passes

so that eight different people don't end up using the same season pass, but I guess I don't get it for regular day passes.

Are they that afraid that one person would use it in the morning and another at night. Most people come in the morning and stay all day.

[ace2u_in_MD]

106. I have been offered admission media in the parking lots before...

We were headed in to MGM at WDW last summer when a guy approached us offering us his tickets for the rest of the day (one day admission) for half price. He wanted to re-coup some of his costs. He said to say that we forgot to get our hands stamped.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

118. Perhaps to match the finger prints to the ticket

So if they park hop or leave the park a different person doesn't enter on the same ticket. They stamp people hands leaving anyway. I don't see how pervasive the problem could be that it would require this technology. I think it may have already been in place to monitor season pass holders so I guess they just expanded the practice.

I'll have to ask my Disney employeed friends.

[ace2u_in_MD]

124. NOT fingerprints...

I think people are not understanding that they are not taking fingerprints...

[Richard Steele]

15. "Tourists...must now provide their index and middle fingers..."

I'm willing to meet them halfway!

[flordehinojos]

16. what is most amazing to me is that when all sorts of similar things to

this started to happen in Cuba after the 1959 Fidel Castro take-over of Cuba, Cubans by the thousands denounced Fidel as a Dictator. Here those same Cubans who have experienced the beginning middle and unending years of dictatorship there see Bush taking away their civil liberties, they see the framings in progress of a full blown dictatorship and they smile and say WHICH FINGER DO YOU WANT SCAN? cAN I OFFER YOU MY WHOLE HAND FOR YOU TO SCAN?

it is incomprehensible to me... it seems that for them a dictatorship is only a dictatorship when it is a dictatorship of the left (communism) and not of the right (fascism) and that is sooooo stupid!

A dictator is a dictator, is a dictator, is a dictator, left or right.

[Eloriel]

17. Whatever could be a good reason for them to do that?

I mean a non-invasive, good, honorable business reason?

[icymist]

22. They're doing fingerprint scans in place of time card punches at work...

The company says it's to make sure that nobody else uses somebodies timecard.... Fact is, they got my fingerprint on file. Now the same technology is being used at Disney? What possible reason would we need this?

[Trillo]

27. Guess I can't go to Walt Disney World anymore.

I wonder if this is true for Disneyland?

I'm probably better off saving my money anyway. Ain't "freedom" grand?

I wonder how much Disney is going to make from it's new fingerprint database, and how much those fingerprinted patrons will earn in royalties from Disney's new revenue scheme?

[Lorien]

50. See post #19

it's not the sinister technology you're imagining it to be.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

28. Please read Post #19 before freaking out

Thank you salvorhardin for explaining this, a lot of people are still jumping to the conclusion that Disney is fingerprinting everyone! This has nothing to do with Homeland Security or the Patriot Act, and it does not prove that Disney is evil.

My local sports club has started using this technology as well, and I mostly just find it annoying. They have had some trouble with local kids (little kids) sneaking in and using the pool, pretending to be members, so now everyone has to enter through a little gate with a finger scan. I find it totally unfriendly and annoying, as this is a very small local club, not a 24-Hr Fitness. So far I've noticed that the technology fails more than it works.

[stickdog]

37. How about starting that revolution against it?

So some little kids can be refused entrance, every paying member is subjected to invasive and failure-ridden technology?

Why does the problem seem benign compared to the "cure"?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

43. I'm starting to talk to other members...

to see if there is a general feeling that this is stupid. I don't know that it's particularly invasive, it's just a thermal scan of my finger, not a fingerprint, but it doesn't make me feel welcomed there at all.

And as you said, the solution is way over the top for the problem. Why are they making their club so uninviting to long-time paying members, just because a few kids used the pool? I also think that if the people at the front desk were doing their job, watching people as they come in, they wouldn't have this problem at all.

[ace2u_in_MD]

29. The reason is to cut down on ticket sharing...

Most tickets allow "park hopping". Instead of stamping the hand of departing guests to allow same day return to the same or different parks, they are using the biometric. The core argument is that Disney is saying that when you purchase a park admission ticket, it allows the purchaser, not the ticket holder, access to the park. There are people who purchase a ticket, go for the part of the day, and try to sell the ticket to someone else when they leave in the afternoon.

Another reason this is being done (and I think the biggest reason) is to cut down on the secondary market of selling partially used tickets on Ebay and within Florida. I have seen people show up at the gates with tickets purchased on the secondary market that are totally used, with no admissions left on them. That leaves the people who purchased the tickets to have to pay for new ones. If they are doing a shoe-string budget trip, this could leave them down there with no access to the parks.

Also, the biometric is tied to the ticket, and when the ticket expires, the biometric is discarded from the database.

[Trillo]

30. It sounds to me like they're just greedy.

Also, the biometric is tied to the ticket, and when the ticket expires, the biometric is discarded from the database.

When I was a kid, any leftover 'ride' tickets, A, B, C, D, or whatever they were were good in perpetuity. I probably have some sitting in a file folder or drawer somewhere. What you've written just suggests to me the increasing greediness of Disney (ticket expiration).

How does a customer verifythe biometric has been discarded? Presumably, customers aren't given access to their database. It seems to come down to "trust us." :rofl:

[Sgent]

34. Still Are

I was there last year with two park hopper (with 2 days each) tickets from the 1970's that my dad gave me-- they were still good. I wonder if this will prevent me from using those tickets if my dad isn't around?

[ace2u_in_MD]

61. Uh, there was only 1 park in the 1970's...

EPCOT Center did not open until 1982. There were no "park hoppers" until later then with the introduction of the 3 day World Passport...

[Sgent]

80. Park something

Whatever it was, it was good for 1 entrance to any park (but no going between) per "day" left.

[ace2u_in_MD]

84. The tickets are still good to some degree...

You may still be able to use them for a one park one day entrry, but will have to trade them in at a ticket window. Then the one park - one day ticket will be good for your use. You can still transfer the ticket to someone else PRIOR to the use of the ticket. The biometric is collected at the gate, not at the ticket window.

[ace2u_in_MD]

70. Older tickets are still good...

And so are the ones tied to the biometrics...

[woodsprite]

82. As of their new ticket structure, you have to pay more "no exp. date". n/t

[stickdog]

38. Disney used "per ride" coupons last time I was there.

And there were no ins and outs without some sort of glowing stamp.

[adolfo]

41. Illegal Tickets in Florida

It is against Florida law to sell tickets with unused days. I think Disney lobbied for this law some time ago.

The secondary market for Disney tickets is big business and a threat to retail prices. It is very pathetic. There are even dedicated undercover agents that go after "illegal" ticket sellers in major parts of Orlando and Kissimmee.

The easiest solution would be a ticket verification phone number anyone can call but that would most likely threaten Mickey's profits.

I've known a few people in the ticket biz here.

[BlackVelvet04]

76. No offense, but

this made me laugh - "I have seen people show up at the gates with tickets purchased on the secondary market that are totally used, with no admissions left on them. That leaves the people who purchased the tickets to have to pay for new ones."

I'm reaaaaal sure disney is doing this to protect those poor people. Sounds to me like another greedy corporation making sure they drain every buck they can from the public. Heaven forbid someone resell their ticket!

I wouldn't go now if someone gave me free airfare, motel and tickets to Disney.

I've got a finger they can scan!

[salvorhardin]

77. Hey thanks

I forgot to mention about the fingerscan being tied to the ticket and discarded after use. Good point.

[Dr Ron]

32. Big deal

As an Annual Pass holder, I've had my fingers in their scanners numerous times over the last several years. They're confirming that the pass is being used by only one person--hardly a civil liberties issue.

Unless there is evidence of them sharing this information with others, or using it for other purposes than park admissions, I see no problem.

[stickdog]

39. But why make non-annual pass holders use this technology?

It's like you are saying, "I have to piss in a cup and hand it to the authorities every morning, so why shouldn't everybody?"

[Dr Ron]

90. Not at all

Your analogy doesn't hold at all. Disney has reasons to extend this policy to other types of passes to ensure that only the person the pass was sold for can use it.

[flaminbats]

55. Why shouldn't a pass be used by more than one person?

I paid for it..then why should anyone I lend it to be stopped?

[ace2u_in_MD]

67. Because when you bought the pass...

The terms of the agreement was for admission of you, not anyone who holds the ticket...

[flaminbats]

72. then why should I buy a ticket?

I haven't been to Disneyland for nearly 15 years. But I would never sign an agreement stopping me from giving a ticket, which I paid for, to someone else.

Why shouldn't I allow my liberal relatives to post at DU using my username? I only give my DU username and password to liberals I trust, otherwise I ultimately suffer.

[ace2u_in_MD]

83. Check the terms and conditions of your DU account...

You may not be able to do that. And, if Skinner wants to limit that, he can under the terms and conditions. Just as disney does...

[flaminbats]

86. I have read all the rules and follow them..

However..if Disney has the right to change the terms of any contract I signed and paid for, then so should I!!

Why should Disney be allowed to alter terms of an agreement for a season pass without the approval of every buyer? Why should I sign any agreement only one side can alter?

The rules at DU can be altered by Skinner at anytime, but no one is required to pay moderators for posting privileges..an important reason I post here!

[ace2u_in_MD]

88. You can try to change the rules...

And the mouse can engineer a better mousetrap.

That is what this is about.

[Dr Ron]

91. You are advocating theft

Disney sold the pass for use by one person. If someone else wants to go into the park, they need to buy their own pass.

Allowing someone else to use the pass for park entrance is theft--no different than if you are shop lifting from the stores in the park.

[flaminbats]

96. it is different than shop lifting..

Why should buying anything at a store as a gift be theft?

[ace2u_in_MD]

125. In your example...

If I understand your point, that you were thinking that buying admission media as a gift. You are free to give it as a gift as long as you have not used it yourself first.

[Dr Ron]

126. That's not what I said

What I was saying is that multiple people using the same pass, to avoid each paying for a pass, is theft, like shop lifting.

[flaminbats]

129. uhggg, that's even worse...

I can buy a house, but multiple people can't live in it!! but what confuses me much more..why should the seller care once I own it?

[Dr Ron]

133. Not at all analogous

There is just no similarity between how many people live in your house and how many people you allow to enter a park on a park pass sold for use by one person.

[flaminbats]

140. it ain't?!?!

:shrug:their is a similarity..when I buy something it becomes mine, why should I buy any house by signing a contract allowing only me to live there?

Why should I buy a seven-day ticket that only I, not my sister or father..can use? I thought property rights were protected under the constitution

[AlGore-08.com]

141. A better analogy would be renting a hotel room

When you rent the hotel room, you are asked how many people will be staying in the room. If you say only one person will be using it, you will be charged based on a single person occupying that room. If you say two will use it, your rate increases, etc.

So imagine you rent a room for one person, pay the rate for one person, but you actually have six people staying in the room.

That's fraud, and if you six get caught, at the very least that will happen is you have to pay for the extra occupants in the room.

[flaminbats]

142. what if I allow another relative stay on different days?

that is what I'm arguing for..not allowing two people to get into Disneyland on the same day with a single ticket!

[AlGore-08.com]

143. It's still apples and oranges, because the room rate doesn't change

Based on how many days you're using the room. You pay (say) $100 on Monday, and another $100 on Tuesday, etc. You don't pay less the second day. The only rate changes are based on days of the week - - different rates for weekends and holidays.

The Disney pass is set up so that the more days you have on your ticket, the less you pay per day. (If the cost of one day is normally $100, they sell you one ticket for two days at $190 instead of two regular tickets totalling $200, etc.)

Since this is a promotional discount, they have every right to set limits on how the discount is used, provided those limits do not violate local, state or national laws. Limiting the discount to a single customer only does not, to my knowledge, violate any laws.

If you don't like the limitation, don't go to their parks.

[flaminbats]

145. "If you don't like the limitation, don't go to their parks."

I don't!! What did you think my point was??

[ace2u_in_MD]

131. Sorry - Replied to the wrong message...

Must have replied to the wrong message. I agree with you...

[AlwaysQuestion]

130. It is a process of conditioning

I think you're missing the point. It is not that the current technology Disney is using per se is harmful to the individual. It's the insididious process. Get people used to having their fingers scanned unquestioningly. Why already, you among others seem to think it's a perfectly acceptable practice. Increase the number of places this current apparently innocuous technology is used. Then begin to introduce technology that requires a scan which gives far more intrusive information. The process I refer to is conditioning. I am particularly surprised that anyone on this board would give this Disney initiative anything but short shrift.

[Dr Ron]

134. That's paranoia

Disney has a legitimate purpose for what they do. There is no evidence they plan to take this further to some insidious goal.

This is the same sort of mind set which panics over the idea of adding floride to the water, or assigning people Social Security numbers.

Sure any of this could be used in an abusive way, but such abuse is what needs to be watched for, not legitimate actions.

[AlwaysQuestion]

139. Paranoia? Oooookay

Look, I don't live in your country. If you feel comfortable with this sort of thing, that's okay by me. Paranoia is but a label, but I think your examples are nothing if not interesting.

http://www.nofluoride.com/
http://www.epic.org/privacy/ssn/testimony_0501.html

[Robeson]

40. Hey Disney, scan this...

...

[PA Democrat]

51. We were in Disney world in May and they were requiring the scan

It really slowed down the lines, and was a pain in the rear in general. Some people would try 7 or 8 times unsuccessfully. Eventually the attendant just let them in, so I don't know the point of requiring the finger scan.

[rocktivity]

52. Toro turd!

The scans were formerly for season pass holders but now everyone must provide their fingers...Disney officials said the scans help keep track of who is using legitimate tickets, Local 6 News reported.

If it's counterfeit tickets that are the problem, PUT THE ID CODE ON THE TICKET, and make sure it can't be scanned twice within 24 hours! If I had any interest in going to a Disney Park, this blows it away.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Dr Ron]

135. That wouldn't work

The whole point of Disney passes is that (depending on the type of pass) they allow you to enter and leave the park, and move from one park to another. Making a pass which cannot be scanned twice in 24 hours would not help here. They already know if the pass was used previously the same day--it shows up on a little screen which is visible to the person at the gate.

What is needed is a way to ensure that only the person who purchased the pass uses it should the same pass be used to enter a park the same day.

If this bothers you the solution is simple. Buy a one shot pass to one park which is never reused. Then there is no reason need for them to use the finger scanner. Note that this would cost you more than their park hopper and multi-day passes.

(If anyone plans on going very often, they should also get an annual pass, especially if you plan on staying at a Disney Resort. With the annual pass resort discounts, if you stay for around a week it becomes more economical to get an annual pass.)

[slay]

62. I'd like to give Disney a different finger altogether..

..|..

[MadisonProgressive]

65. Maybe I am just malinformed, but I don't see the controversy here.

[Piperay]

68. I'm a season passholder at Disneyland

but I haven't been there for awhile wonder if they will do this in anaheim too. If they are using it only to make sure that it really is my pass I don't mind that but my concern is what this will eventually lead to. :scared:

[Greenbeard]

73. A disturbing trend

I wonder who will start using this technology next?

Airports???

I guess pretty soon there will be no need to carry a wallet with cash our a credit card. Our fingerprint should get the job done just fine.

Very disturbing

[salvorhardin]

74. Did you even read the thread?

This is not uniquely identifying and it is not an invasion of privacy. See my post #19.

[cyberpj]

85. As someone said earlier...

The point is the process. Get people used to doing what is expected of them.

[flaminbats]

75. perhaps Diebold is next..

Make sure your finger doesn't get cut off. This happened to me, and after being stitched back on I had no fingerprint!

[ace2u_in_MD]

89. Airports require a more positive ID than Disney does...

And one still can pay CASH for their park admissions...

[Seabiscuit]

99. And for good reason. No one flew Disneyland into the WTC.

[ace2u_in_MD]

108. Positive ID at airports pre-date 9/11

It was put into place during the Clinton Administration as a "temporary" measure after the airliner wend down off Long Island.

Temporary measure that never went away...

[Gormy Cuss]

115. Yes, and as you probably know

The airlines embraced this because it cut down on the practice of individuals buying cheap tickets on spec and then selling them to others.

Gee, turns out security wasn't really the only reason.

[ace2u_in_MD]

120. Agreed, but there was one difference...

At the time (and I am not as up on airline tickets anymore), airline tickets were bearer instruments. They may still be, but the overacrching reach of security indirectly changed the nature of airline tickets.

[Seabiscuit]

98. Jeb's fingerprints are all over this one.

No way he could get Disneyland in Anaheim to go along with that fascist tactic.

I was at Disneyland 2 months ago and all you needed to get into the park was a ticket.

[bcbarrett]

101. Finger Scanning At Disney Parks Causes Concern

I think there are some important points to be made here, some of which have already been made but bear repeating:

1. Disney is a business. They exist to make a profit for themselves and their shareholders. Ticket trading and reselling cuts into those profits and they have the right to take every legal step to maximize their revenue and profits.
2. A pass is a bearer instrument until it is used the first time. After that permission to enter the park is only granted to the original pass bearer, so you can buy a pass for someone else - just don't use it before giving it as a gift.
3. Disney has a definite interest in protecting their customers from unscrupulous people selling their depleted/expired passes on the black market. If everyone knows a pass is only usable by the original bearer it keeps a lot of families from being disappointed when they purchase a "cheap" ticket from someone who is only ripping them off by selling them an expired pass. It's distressing to cast members who have to see this on a daily basis, and doesn't help for their public image when they have to refuse to honor someone else's unlawful promise.
4. If you don't like Disney's policies, then don't go to Disney parks. Going to see the big rat is not a right.

I'm not defending Disney here. Disney promotes some of the worst aspects of our society by promoting rampant consumerism and materialism. I've taken my niece to Disneyland twice and she becomes a real monster in there after she's ridden all the rides she wants to ride (as do most kids) because she's constantly bombarded with messages to buy all kinds of stuff. However she never leaves with much more than a pair of mouse ears and maybe a few little souvenirs - usually less than $30 of very carefully selected junk paid for out of her own saved allowance. One good thing about her though is that she'd never be caught dead in one of those princess outfits. ;-)

[meganmonkey]

104. Hey bcbarrett!

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

And careful using that informed logic around here sometimes!

;)

[bcbarrett]

105. Why thank you!

Hi meaganmonkey!

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Informed logic is indeed a dangerous thing. Often times it leads to coherent thought... Besides IMNSHO there are more important things to be worried about than whether or not Disney is collecting biometric information about people they may or may not market to third parties or the government or because they want to keep people from illegally accessing their product.

Fears about getting us used to our biometric information collected so the government can do it more easily than they otherwise could aren't necessarily invalid, but apparently none of those people have crossed any of our borders recently as the government is already using this technology to match you up with your passport. The same goes for fears about a national ID. It's already happening and it's been happening for a very long time. Don't think there's a national ID? Ever heard Social Security? Let's not forget those of us who have passports - that's also a national photo ID (News flash - head photos are also a form of biometric information). I had to let the state of California have my index fingerprint at the DMV to get a Driver's License. It's too late. It already exists. The government has been quietly gathering information about you ever since you were born. We could revolt and refuse but then we'd lose many privileges and benefits and by and large the greatest majority of people aren't passionate enough about it to lose those privileges like making a living, credit, driving, air travel, etc., and benefits like Social Security.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned, I'm saying we should prioritize and focus our energies in areas where it will do the most good.

[bunny planet]

110. Perhaps they need all the kiddies fingerprints in case they reinstate the

draft. I don't know, welcome to Brave New World though.

[ace2u_in_MD]

112. They are NOT taking fingerprints...

It is a biometric finger geometry that greates a non-unique value that is tided to a ticket.

And, if you read the story, children are not part of the policy...

[bunny planet]

116. relax, I was just being sarcastic.

I won't forget this next time.
:sarcasm:
:-)

[ace2u_in_MD]

123. Sorry...

Did not read as sarcasm...

[WinkyDink]

113. Because Disney just isn't making enough $$

HAHA!

[ace2u_in_MD]

119. One key consideration that is being overlooked...

Is that Disney is discounting additional days admissions when
buying multiple day tickets...

Base Ticket only (one theme park per day, no theme park
hopping, no pluses, expires 14 days after 1st use:

Ticket	           Cost	   Avg Daily     Savings
 1 Day MYW Base    $63.63    $63.63       0.00%	
 2 Day MYW Base   $126.74    $63.37       0.41%
 3 Day MYW Base   $182.12    $60.71       4.59%
 4 Day MYW Base   $197.03    $49.26      22.59%
 5 Day MYW Base   $205.55    $41.11      35.39%
 6 Day MYW Base   $208.74    $34.79      45.32%
 7 Day MYW Base   $211.94    $30.28      52.42%
 8 Day MYW Base   $215.13    $26.89      57.74%
 9 Day MYW Base   $218.33    $24.26      61.88%
10 Day MYW Base   $222.59    $22.26      65.02%


Now you can see why Disney wants to limit the sharing of
admission media.

[jayctravis]

136. Disney has used biometrics on their season passes.

It's a quick way for them to verify the person getting in is the person who owns the pass. It doesn't scan your fingerprint, it somehow measures the distance between the fork of two fingers on your hand. As far as I know, they don't do this if you just visit...you get a normal magnetic paper ticket that works like a metrocard. Multiple day passes might have your name associated with the card, but they are very lenient in enforcing it.

There is no reason for Disney to have people's fingerprints; especially not with the power the government wants to invest in the Patriot Act where they could basically take any records they want.

I don't want the government to use this for a database, and similarly I wouldn't want my fingerprint identification available to the people who work at an amusement park -- understandably a less than ideally secure location for this.

[Voltaire99]

144. Walt Disney's dream come true!

The old fascist snoop is kicking up his heels in hell.

Can't say I feel any sympathy for Disney fans. It's Disney, ffs! What were you expecting?