Rove Reportedly Held Phone Talk on C.I.A. Officer

[cal04]

Karl Rove, the White House senior adviser, spoke with the columnist Robert D. Novak as he was preparing an article in July 2003 that identified a C.I.A. officer who was undercover, someone who has been officially briefed on the matter said Thursday. Mr. Rove has told investigators that he learned from the columnist the name of the C.I.A. officer, who was referred to by her maiden name, Valerie Plame, and the circumstances in which her husband, former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, traveled to Africa to investigate possible uranium sales to Iraq, the person said.

After hearing Mr. Novak's account, the person who has been briefed on the matter said, Mr. Rove told the columnist: "I heard that, too."The previously undisclosed telephone conversation, which took place on July 8, 2003, was initiated by Mr. Novak, the person who has been briefed on the matter said. Six days later, Mr. Novak's syndicated column reported that two senior administration officials had told him that Mr. Wilson's "wife had suggested sending him" to Africa. That column was the first instance in which Ms. Wilson was publicly identified as a C.I.A. operative. The column provoked angry demands for an investigation into who disclosed Ms. Wilson's name to Mr. Novak.

The Justice Department appointed Patrick J. Fitzgerald, a top federal prosecutor in Chicago, to lead the inquiry. Mr. Rove said in an interview last year that he did not know the C.I.A. officer's name and did not leak it.The person who provided the information about Mr. Rove's conversation with Mr. Novak declined to be identified, citing requests by Mr. Fitzgerald that no one discuss the case. The person discussed the matter in the belief that Mr. Rove was truthful in saying he did not disclose Ms. Wilson's identity. On Oct. 1, 2003, Mr. Novak wrote another column in which he described calling two officials. The first source, who is unknown, was described by Mr. Novak as "no partisan gunslinger" who provided the outlines of the story. The second, confirming source, Mr. Novak wrote, responded, "Oh, you know about it."

That second source was Mr. Rove, the person briefed on the matter said, although Mr. Rove's account to investigators about what he told Mr. Novak was slightly different. Mr. Rove recalled telling Mr. Novak: "I heard that, too."Asked by investigators how he knew enough to leave Mr. Novak with the impression that his information was accurate, Mr. Rove said he heard portions of the story from other journalists, but had not heard Ms. Wilson's name.Robert D. Luskin, Mr. Rove's lawyer, said Thursday, "Any pertinent information has been provided to the prosecutor." Mr. Luskin has previously said that prosecutors have advised Mr. Rove that he is not a target in the case, which means he is not likely to be charged with a crime.In a brief conversation on Thursday, Mr. Novak declined to discuss the matter.The conversation between Mr. Novak and Mr. Rove seemed almost certain to intensify the question about whether one of Mr. Bush's closest political advisers played a role in what appeared to be an effort to undermine Mr. Wilson's credibility after he challenged the veracity of a key point in Mr. Bush's 2003 State of the Union speech, alleging that Saddam Hussein had sought nuclear fuel in Africa.

page 1 of 3
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/politics/15rove.html?hp&ex=1121400000&en=15d2c0ff1133350b&ei=5094&partner=homepage

http://nytimes.com/2005/07/15/politics/15rove.html?ei=5094&en=15d2c0ff1133350b&hp=&ex=1121400000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

[applegrove]

1. Thanks for posting. I was waiting for more news.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. In this case...more disinformation.

[kurtyboy]

71. Confirmation by Rove EQUALS A LEAK!!!!

This doesn't matter! A person entrusted with national security information IS NOT ALLOWED TO EVEN CONFIRM information, even if someone else without clearance guesses right.

Got IT? You cannot divulge, you cannot divulge, you cannot divulge

UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. Who are you trying to lecture? The disinformation in this article is....

...VERY clear. Rove did NOT get his information from a journalist. Period. No way, no how.

Additionally, I know the law on this particular issue very well.

Now, do you GET IT??

[kurtyboy]

167. Sorry MLD, I wasn't lecturing you

I wrote that last night when I was so pissed off at the Times for printing such a crap article. My rant was directed at them and the people who won't see through this deception the press are colluding with the White House to create.

On top of that, I hit the wrong reply link, and got your post---

I hope you'll accept my apology.
-KURT-

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[maddezmom]

2. my head is starting to hurt with all the spin

:crazy: If Rove is now the 2nd source...who was the 1st? Or did I read it incorrectly?

[johnfunk]

12. If Rove is now the 2nd source...who was the 1st?

My money is on Judith Miller, though -- y'never know -- it could be someone like, say, Elliot Abrams or John Bolton...

[short bus president]

17. Scooter Libby.

Happy development per this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1629014

[maddezmom]

122. so Judy is protecting Libby?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

139. Judy is protecting herself, and herself only.

[mmonk]

146. Wilson thinks Libby

so I'll go with that.

[maddezmom]

149. so will I, and Scooter is Cheney's puppet

[zanne]

151. It's called "complicating the issue".

It's been used in politics for a very long time. The powers that be know that the American people don't really like to think; that's why there are talking points issued by the RNC, Rush Limbaugh, etc., etc. They can take an issue and come at it from so many different angles that the basic argument is forgotten. You might notice that we're not talking about political retribution as one of Karl Rove's tactics, though that's really what's at the bottom of this whole thing.

[katty]

190. 1st source could have been several players like

Scooter Libby, Cheney, Bolton - one or a few of the top inner circle could have obtained the info at bush's request...after that, well anybody's guess - this game of clue is certainly not over.

[txindy]

3. So, Novak and Karl are colluding to make them both appear innocent.

Oh, sure. That'll work. :eyes:

Someone told both of THEM, hmmm? **snort!**

This is why a charge of conspiracy may be brought. One of the many reasons, I'm sure.

[applegrove]

5. That was my first reaction. "What? Rove is the con-firmer? yeah right!"

Confirming to Novak could also be Rove's "truth line". Knowing that he & Novak were already linked as Rove was fired for leaking to Novak 15 years ago ...

[quaoar]

4. And remember

that records of phone calls to Air Force One were subpoenaed in an apparent attempt to see if Novak and Rove talked to get their stories straight.

[Straight Shooter]

6. Luskin says Rove is not likely to be charged with a crime

because he's not, at this time, a target? Or the author of this article is inferring from Luskin that Rove is not likely to be charged with a crime?

Rove is in a "subject" status. That status can be changed to "target" if Fitzgerald considers it appropriate.

How many conversations does Rove hold per day, how many conversations with Novak has he had? Must have been a really important conversation if he can remember his precise words, eh?

[Lex]

7. Weird.

"On Oct. 1, 2003, Mr. Novak wrote another column in which he described calling two officials. The first source, who is unknown, was described by Mr. Novak as "no partisan gunslinger" who provided the outlines of the story. The second, confirming source, Mr. Novak wrote, responded, "Oh, you know about it."

That second source was Mr. Rove, the person briefed on the matter said, although Mr. Rove's account to investigators about what he told Mr. Novak was slightly different. Mr. Rove recalled telling Mr. Novak: "I heard that, too."

-----

[aquart]

8. Did he speak to Cooper before or after Novak?

[wookie294]

64. That's not weird -- THAT'S FANTASTIC !!

Your excerpt shows Rove probably lied to the grand jury. Why would Novak lie to the grand jury? He has no reason to lie. Rove is more likely than Novak to lie. This is getting juicy!

[magellan]

9. This is getting absurd

SOMEONE outed Plame. SOMEONE committed a crime and will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I'm sure Fitzgerald has a good handle on all this by now and is waiting for SOMEONE to hang themselves in the web of lies that's being weaved.

[cal04]

29. Novak says two Senior administrative officials told him that

Wilson never worked for the CIA, but doesn't mention who told him about the WMD part, just that she suggested sending him. Real slick, so now Rove blames Novak


Wilson never worked for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me Wilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian report. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him. "I will not answer any question about my wife," Wilson told me.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20030714.shtml

[zanne]

152. We're allowing them to cloud the issue

Just from this thread, I can see that our discussion is spinning off in so many directions, the basics are being lost. This is just what the GOP PR people want. Let's stick to the basics; A CIA agent was outed by a government official for political revenge. Period.

[Tom Kitten]

10. Cheney...

him or Bush, who else would have told Rove?

[JDPriestly]

32. Colin Powell or Tenet or someone from Rice's office or Rice

[Athame]

74. Someone from Rice's office who had been inappropriately

investigating people in the CIA? Someone with a bad temper, maybe?

[JDPriestly]

196. Quite possibly!

[swag]

11. As Jerri Blank would say, "That's my story and I'm stickin' with it!"

[Roland99]

13. Guess we'd all best hold our conjecture until Cooper's new article

[Media_Lies_Daily]

138. "Hold our conjecture"? Why's that? Because you said so?

[Roland99]

158. Because it may prevent you from getting egg on your face

Rove is no fool. He's been playing dirty tricks for a very long time. While I hope he's guilty as @#$%, it wouldn't surprise me if it comes out that he didn't do anything illegal.

[Straight Shooter]

159. It's called preemptive brainstorming.

Always best to examine from every angle the bright shiny things that the Repubs throw out and discover their flaws so as to be ready for the arguments from "the dark side."

:hi:

[longship]

14. Another source is naming Libby as second source.

That puts things squarely into Cheney's lap and explains why the WH has obstructed justice for two years on this affair.

Libby clearly would not have the clearance to know NOC IDs. Neither would Rove. But Cheney was over at the CIA regularly during that period, trying to "fix the intelligence" around a justification for the war.

Along comes Wilson, dissing the administration. Cheney, and others at WHIG, go a little overboard and decide to take retribution against him and his family. They concoct this looney toon plan to out his covert op wife. Libby and Rove do the dirty deed.

Connect the dots. It all adds up. And as we figured, it would all connect to the DSM and the justification for war. If you think about the White House two years ago, there was little else on their mind at the time.

[w13rd0]

18. And we know Cheney is just as much a lying, amoral bastard...

...as Rove. That man lies as much or more than he breathes. It's second nature for Cheney to distort reality.

[wallwriter]

15. I think this is more Project Mockingbird Bullshit.

They didn't expose Plame to discredit Wilson, they did it to punish him.

This says nothing about conspiracy and perjury, which are likely to be more important charges than the exposure issue.

Any article in which Luskin's view is showcased without significant rebuttal is suspect.

[galloglas]

35. To punish Wilson or to punish Plame??

Is it a different story if the real target is Plame?

Bear in mind that she was not just any old covert op. She was the head of the WMD desk... the one that George Tenet would have to deal with to make sure the WMD excuse was a "slam dunk"... and Plame could not provide evidence of WMDs. Because there was none.

So Plame would not, could not, validate the wishes of Cheney or Bush to claim that there was reason to believe that Iraq had WMDs.

Indeed, Joseph Wilson did the leg work. And he wrote the article about the Niger yellowcake. But was it his idea? Or was it hers, and Joe agrees?

Also, WMDs include more than nuclear devices. Plame would validate no type of WMDs for Iraq. And that is a deadend for casus belli.

So could the actual target be Plame? Even if the Cheney/Bush thought was that Plame put Wilson up to writing the article because she could not?

[ribrepin]

197. I think Plame was the real target

Joe Wilson's article in the New York Times wasn't that important. People with a lot more gravitas were writing editorial against this war. If the White House would have ignored this editorial, no one would have paid any attention. Remember, we were all busy waving the flag.

Novak printed the name of her shell company. Most likely other agents were using the same cover company. That means these traitors took down a lot more people than Plame.

I think the CIA opposition disappeared once that happened. No network of people on the ground to contradict the Neocons and off to war. That's ticket.

I can't believe the press is still on it. I expected this to be over in a day. I'm guessing something big is brewing, but I've been wrong before. I was convinced Kerry would take it in 2004.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

140. This goes way past Mockingbird. Think about what Plame's global...

...network was responsible for tracking, and then think about what the NeoCons used as the primary justification for invading Iraq.

Discrediting Wilson is their COVER story...it is NOT the primary reason that they compromised Plame and her network.

In the process of eliminating one more group stating that WMDs didn't exist in Iraq, the NeoCons did irreparable damage to National Security. And that, my friend, is a very serious charge with very serious penalties.

[wiggs]

169. Interesting. Many questions.....

Are you talking about Brooster Jennings, a CIA front oil company that was tracking how oil, weapons, and drug dollars were intermingling in various countries?

What is the connection to Iraq and WMD's? Is there a Sibel Edmonds connection here (sixth sense says so)?

I regret to say that I have become a cynical believer in stories behind the stories with these bastards. What you are saying is that perhaps we haven't yet glimpsed the real story...that we are several chess moves behind...that Wilson was CHOSEN in the first place so that this could all unfold carefully and in a measured way AS IT HAS, with the main goal the dismantling of a CIA operation that was on the track of bigger game?

Is Rove a planned distraction from the real story or is he going to be the unwilling gateway to the real story?

What makes you think Fitzgerald is onto the real story?

If this story behind the story is true, why hasn't the CIA come unglued by all this civilian administration perversion? Why in God's name hasn't Tenet and others spilled the beans? Why hasn't Plame herself stepped forward to clear the air and set the record straight?

I have been uncomfortable with the focus on Rove and his deliberate stepping out into the spotlight the last month. Sounds like you have some insight into this whole game. Can you be more specific and if not why not?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

16. LOL, Check out this quote:

"The Republican National Committee has mounted an aggressive campaign to cast Mr. Rove as blameless and to paint the matter as a partisan dispute driven not by legality, ethics or national security concerns, but by a penchant among Democrats to resort to harsh personal attacks."

[LuckyTheDog]

19. We know how this will be spun

Tomorrow, all the RW talk shows will be saying: "Rove was exonerated! He was not the source!"

Of course that is BS. All this shows is that he probably was not the ONLY source (which Judith Miller pretty much confirmed by her actions). But that is the line they will be selling in drive-time.

[goforit]

20. As Jon Stewart said......Rove will be promoted no matter what.

Arrogance overides them.

Hell .....all I gotta say is, if they get away with this by bloody murder,
they will have to start making a brand new flag cause this
will most certainly not be the same old country I use to know.

[LuckyTheDog]

22. Supreme Court?

A massive screw-up like this deserves a big reward. Chief Justice Rove? :crazy:

[against all enemies]

160. Don't be ridiculous, just an Associate Justice for now.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

21. So is the new story...

going to be Scooter told Novak who told Rove? Are they going to play Scooter as the sole fall guy?

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

27. Why not say Miller told Novak who told Rove?

If she won't testify and tell who told her, it stops with her.

My $ is that she'll take the fall.

[JDPriestly]

No. They have someone else in the wings.

Someone they have already fired, probably. Tenet announced he was leaving his job on the same day as Bush consulted with his lawyer. That may be significant. Under a conspiracy theory, they could all be guilty. Rove showed terrible judgment by even confirming or discussing the identity of a CIA officer with a journalist. Even if he heard that she was a CIA officer from a reporter, he should not have confirmed it or admitted that he heard it. Mum is the word on these things.

Rove is just too partisan to be serving in the White House. He is too partisan and has too little judgment to have access to these highly sensitive, top secret matters. He simply is not up to the job. He talks and gossips too much. He is too irresponsible.

[rainbow4321]

23. ...."all roads still lead to Rove".....

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/columns/shoptalk_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000973352


To understand why this case is exceptional, one must grasp the extent of Rove’s political mastery, which became clearer to me by working with him. When we taught "Politics and the Press" together at The University of Texas at Austin seven years ago, Rove showed an amazing disdain for Texas political reporters. At the same time, he actively cultivated national reporters who could help him promote a Bush presidency.

In teaching with him, I learned Rove assumes command over any political enterprise he engages. He insists on absolute discipline from staff: nothing escapes him; no one who works with him moves without his direction. In Texas, though he was called "the prime minister" to Gov. George W. Bush, it might have been "Lord," as in the divine, for when it came to politics and policy, it was Rove who gave, and Rove who took away. Little has changed since the Bush presidency; all roads still lead to Rove.

Consequently, when former U.S. Ambassador Joseph Wilson challenged President Bush’s embrace of the British notion that Saddam Hussein sought to import uranium from Niger to produce nuclear weapons, retaliation by Rove was never in doubt. While it is reporters Matthew Cooper of Time and Judith Miller of The New York Times who now face jail time, the retaliation came through Rove-uber-outlet Robert Novak, who blew the cover of Wilson’s wife, CIA operative Valerie Plame.

The problem, as always, in dealing with Rove, is establishing a clear chain of culpability. Rove once described himself as a die-hard Nixonite; he is, like the former president, both student and master of plausible deniability. (This past weekend, in confirming that Rove was indeed a source for Matthew Cooper, Rove's lawyer said his client "never knowingly disclosed classified information.") That is precisely why prosecutor Fitzgerald in this case must document the pattern of Rove’s behavior, whether journalists published, or not.

[dArKeR]

24. Asscroft assinged Fitzgerald or random like Fed. judges assinged?

If Asscroft assigned Fitzgerald, he a part of the cover-up. No one is more connected to Satan than Asscroft. First the GOP Crime Family assassinated Carnahan so that Asscroft my ascend to power. It backfired and Asscroft was named AG. No one in the world more corrupt than Asscroft.

You can't trust anything Fitzgerald does if he was assigned. Unless he's doubled crossed the Bush Crime Family.

The way it's going to end if Fitzgerald found he has a soul;
It's called the Casey Syndrome:
aWol or Rove slip Cheney a Mickey. Cheney's had 4 heart attacks and no one would question he being poisoned. Once dead, the GOP turns on him, since he's the father of a Satan lesbian and evil to the core. Blame everything on the dead guy as they did Casey.

PS. Do you think it was Bush One who slipped Casey the Mickey?

[RevolutionStartsNow]

28. Ashcroft did not pick Fitzgerald

He recused himself, for whatever reason, and his second in command (forgotten his name) picked Fitzgerald, who is a good friend of his.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. This has been posted MANY times to DU...please make a copy....

...this time:

Attorney general recuses himself from CIA probe
<http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-12-30-cia-leak_x.htm>

QUOTE:

WASHINGTON — Attorney General John Ashcroft recused himself Tuesday from a politically charged investigation into whether Bush administration officials leaked a CIA operative's name to the news media.

Acting in Ashcroft's place, Deputy Attorney General James Comey appointed the U.S. attorney in Chicago, Patrick Fitzgerald, to lead the investigation as special prosecutor. It is the administration's first such appointment.

By selecting Fitzgerald, Comey is trying to quiet critics who have said that Ashcroft, a Bush appointee, could not conduct an independent probe of high-ranking administration officials. Comey described Fitzgerald, who also is a Bush appointee, as "Eliot Ness with a Harvard law degree and a sense of humor."

Rather than appoint an outsider to run the probe, Comey gave Fitzgerald more independence than required under Justice Department regulations. Fitzgerald will not have to seek approval from Justice officials in Washington before issuing subpoenas or granting immunity. U.S. attorneys must get approval before taking such steps.

And here's something else you might find interesting in regards to the funding for Fitzgerald's job...

Special Counsel and Permanent Indefinite Appropriation, B-302582, September 30, 2004
<http://www.gao.gov/decisions/appro/302582.htm>

[KeepItReal]

Thanks for the info...

This makes it even more interesting.

Will the special prosecutor do the right thing, then?

[dArKeR]

70. Thanks for setting me straight on that one! He's going into my

"Bush Crime Family" folder for now.


1. On October 3, 2003, President George W. Bush nominated Jim Comey to serve as Deputy Attorney General

2. College of William & Mary (B.S. with Honors 1982, Chemistry and Religion majors)
3. Mr. Comey oversaw numerous terrorism cases
4. Mr. Comey also created a specialized unit devoted to prosecuting international drug cartels.
5. he handled the Khobar Towers terrorist bombing case, arising out of the June 1996 attack on a U.S. military facility in Saudi Arabia in which 19 Airmen were killed.
6. Prior to joining the U.S. Attorney's office in Richmond in 1996, he was a partner at McGuireWoods, LLP specializing in criminal defense and commercial litigation.
7. Mr. Comey is married and has five children.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/comey-bio.html


Yesterday, the Justice Department tried to quell the growing outrage about the treatment of U.S. citizen Jose Padilla by cynically attempting to undermine public confidence in the American justice system. Deputy Attorney General James Comey told the media yesterday that if the government would have afforded Padilla the rights to which he is entitled as a U.S. citizen, he would "likely have ended up a free man," and people would have died when Padilla blew up an apartment building or detonated a "dirty bomb." Comey based that assertion on a series of unproven allegations that were gleaned from two years of interrogating Padilla without the presence of an attorney. Since June 2002, the Department of Defense has held Padilla as an "enemy combatant" on a naval brig in South Carolina. Padilla has not been charged with any crime and is cut off from the outside world. (Very recently, he has been permitted limited access to his attorney at the discretion of the Pentagon.) Federal courts have repeatedly ruled that the Bush administration's detention of Padilla is illegal. The U.S. Court of Appeals found that, "based on the text of the Constitution and the cases interpreting it, we reject that the President has inherent constitutional power to detain Padilla under the circumstances presented here." The court concluded that Padilla is "entitled to the constitutional protections extended to other citizens." The administration has appealed the case to the Supreme Court, where it is now pending.
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=85178



James B. Comey Jr., a former Manhattan prosecutor who was installed just three weeks ago as deputy attorney general, will oversee the investigation following Mr. Ashcroft's withdrawal. His first decision in that role was to name Patrick J. Fitzgerald, who is the United States attorney in Chicago and is a friend and former colleague of Mr. Comey's, as a special counsel who will direct the investigation.
http://nucnews.net/nucnews/2003nn/0312nn/031231nn.htm



Fitzgerald attended Amherst College and graduated from Harvard Law School in 1985. After practicing civil law, he became an Assistant United States Attorney in New York in 1988. He handled drug-trafficking cases and in 1993 helped prosecute John Gambino of the Gambino mafia family. In 1994, he became the prosecutor in the case against Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and 11 other individuals charged in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.<3>
In 1996, Fitzgerald became the National Security Coordinator for the Office of the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. There, he served on a team of prosecutors investigating Osama bin Laden.<4> He served as chief counsel in prosecutions related to the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa.<5>
Patrick Fitzgerald was nominated for his position as U.S. Attorney on September 19, 2001 on the recommendation of U.S. Senator Peter Fitzgerald (R-IL), and confirmed on October 24, 2001. Peter Fitzgerald and Patrick Fitzgerald are not related.<6>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Fitzgerald


In conclusion, I don't like the smell of any of Comey. I don't trust him and he's friends with Fitzgerald. What goes around comes around. I only trust Howard Dean and Al Franken and Randi Rhodes. Assign one of them Special Prosecutor and I'll rest at night.


The fate of the Universe rests in the hands of one man or will he succumb to the Dark Evil Emperor?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

142. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but Fitzgerald has a....

...very strong reputation for pursuing the truth no matter where it leads. He also has powers very, very similar to that of an Independent Counsel, and basically has the ability to conduct his investigation the way he sees fit.

[dArKeR]

162. I've personally tried to help law enforcement with "drug cases"

since I was 20. Bad type of drug dealers who would kill, or are killing their own children, or doing extremely dangerous things in the neighborhood. It spans from Illinois to Hawaii with many states inbetween. There is no doubt in my mind that the police seem to care more about busting a law-abiding citizen who has a joint or a little stuff than they are about tracking and catching dealers. I'm guessing it's not the local police. I think they are just told by the DEA, FBI, CIA... "We'll take care of it."

If you ever tried to help a local police you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. You can obviously tell they have no concern about acting on dealers. I think because their hands are tired by the big bosses. Who are the big bosses? Comey, Asscroft, Gonzolas, Van Harp, Fitzgerald... or are they in the same position as the local police and the White House tell them "We'll take care of it"?

[dArKeR]

165. Is Comey or Fitzgerald friends with Van Harp?

[tanyev]

147. "I only trust Howard Dean and Al Franken and Randi Rhodes"

Really?

[demgrrrll]

25. Like someone said this case isn't being tried in the court of public

opinion. Spin is one thing and a criminal investigation is something else again. This story just reeks! I want them to go to prison based on this stupid ass story alone. Anyone who made up this kind of lame story SHOULD go to jail. Infuriating.

[usregimechange]

26. It doesn't matter who the primary source is, Rove was spreading

it. The crime is with in the motivation not who is first.

[txindy]

30. OOHH! Now I get it! This is what Rove testified happened

When he went before the Grand Jury, this story is what he told. This is what Fitzgerald must be trying to prove is perjury.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050715/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/cia_leak_rove

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Bingo! Because Cooper, and I suspect others, have testified that Rove...

...was the source of the information. I suspect that the others are Chris Matthews, Andrea Mitchell, and at least two other journalists.

[txindy]

36. It was the NYT story that threw me.

I thought that this was yet another spin from the NYT or Novak, but the Yahoo article was a lot clearer on the subject. For me, anyway.

Okay, back to watching Rome burn. ;)

:popcorn:

[Tiggeroshii]

Since when did he say he was trying to prove purjury?

Wouldn't that be in a different investigation at a different time?

[txindy]

66. Fitzgerald hasn't said it, himself

But it's been mentioned many times as his possible back-up to proving Rover outed Plame deliberately while knowing she was a covert operative.

One investigation certainly doesn't preclude another. If one crime is being investigated and numerous others are brought to light, they aren't put aside for another day. They're all brought to bear on the guilty and he would face multiple charges at once.

[Tiggeroshii]

75. ...Which is another thing giving us reason to believe Rove will be

indicted no matter what now. The pundits seem to be focusing on technicalities to prove their man is safe, but as it turns out, technicalities won't save him from all the other crimes he's committed. I hope you're right that a crime committed during a criminal investigation can be charged during that same investigation. I always thought it would need to be taken up by a different prosecutor, however, Fitzgerald wastes no time getting down to business!

YESSSSssssss ;)

[msanthrope]

37. Will the NYT never learn? Burned on Iraq, Rove is trying to burn them now

[Career Prole]

38. Source: Rove Got CIA Agent ID From Media

WASHINGTON - Presidential confidant Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he learned the identity of a CIA operative originally from journalists, then informally discussed the information with a Time magazine reporter days before the story broke, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of grand jury proceedings, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.
http://tinyurl.com/dfj49

Check it out! Now they're saying Novak leaked to Rove! :headexploding:
:rofl:

[ncteechur]

39. So again, what was the timeline of Novak's story to Cooper's email?

[Pirate Smile]

40. I see another leak with Karl Roves grimy fingers all over it.

:eyes:

[oioioi]

46. Cooper->Rove->Novak->Judy->Not Telling

.

[UCSBLiberalCat53]

41. The Personal Responsibility Administration

STRIKES AGAIN!

[democracyindanger]

42. So maybe this is what Fitzgerald is after

A perjury charge...hmm...

[Stephanie]

43. Novak leaked to Rove!

Hah! Well then who leaked to Novak? Who leaked to Judy? We know Rove leaked to Cooper so he's not off the hook.

I think now we are getting close to the neo-cons. It was their Iraq War intelligence that needed some fixing, and Wilson failed to cooperate. The WHIG included Rove, Hughes, Matalin, Libby, who else?

I'm waiting for Chalabi to surface in this. And from him the whole neo-con apparatus.

[w13rd0]

61. Bolton...

...Bolton was in the WHIG group, and he worked at State for the CPD (counterproliferation department)...

[are_we_united_yet]

63. My bet:

Freepers will implicate Bill Clinton before it is all over.

[TahitiNut]

44. It's "leak laundering" ... the equivalent of money laundering.

Rove's a specialist in this crap. That's how the WMD disinformation was sown.

[burrowowl]

62. Leak Laundering!

Good one! LOL!

[Nickster]

144. You got it! It all ties back to Rover.

It's not even so much her name. It's where they got the details of the meeting in question. The document they had was classified and contained Valerie's name and details of Amb. Wilson's meeting with the CIA regarding Niger. Who leaked that document that Colin Powell had his hands on???

[FormerRepublican]

45. Hmmm.

I think the White House has been reading DU and has taken a previously expressed theory (Novak leaked, Miller leaked) from DU and is using it to leak a story to the NY Times to take the heat off Rove.

I don't think it will work. It still makes the WH look like a bunch of liars.

[FormerRepublican]

48. I also think the press should be mad at the WH for this article...

Scotty won't talk, but the WH will leak all over the US to take the heat off Rove.

What a bunch of scared wusses we have at the WH.

[ruggerson]

47. This differs from the account in the NYT

In the NYT Rove supposedly said "oh you know that too" according to Novak.

Well, how could he have said that if what this AP article says is true.

If the AP article is true, Rove is claiming that that he got the story from Novak.

But Novak is claiming Rove confirmed the story.

[Rose Siding]

155. This AP account is screwy- The reporter says Plame wasn't undercover

and uses Wilson as the source! Wilson has CONSISTENTLY said that the day she was outed she wasn't undercover- factual, *legal* for him to say, -but the implication is clear: once Novak outed her she was no longer undercover.


In an interview on CNN earlier Thursday before the latest revelation, Wilson kept up his criticism of the White House, saying Rove's conduct was an "outrageous abuse of power ... certainly worthy of frog-marching out of the White House."

But at the same time, Wilson acknowledged his wife was no longer in an undercover job at the time Novak's column first identified her. "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity," he said.

[Frances]

49. Are they saying that Novak leaked to Rove

and that Rove leaked back to Novak?

And that lets both Rove and Novak off the hook?

Pretty clever, huh?

[htuttle]

52. They aren't saying that -- Rove said that to the Grand Jury

And it's probably a demonstrable lie. I'd guess perjury was one of the charges being persued here.

[ruggerson]

58. That's exactly what I'm thinking

Rove and Novak may have told two different things to the grand jury. Therefore, at least one of them would have been lying.

[althecat]

50. That's why Judith Miller is in jail... she must have been the source...

:crazy:

[oioioi]

54. Of course - why isn't this obvious to everyone? am I missing something?

Judy is not going to sing, so Rove won't swing.

It won't matter who told Rove what as long as all roads lead to Judy, and she's a dead end.

I thought this was reasonably obvious when she chose jail over testifying.

[althecat]

55. Interesting... it makes a perverse sort of sense....

Judith Miller becomes the original source to Rove... And she refuses to say who told her.... and whammo Rove gets a get out of jail free card...

Wow.. that is really rovian! This theory really deserves its own thread... it will make Josh Marshall's head explode...

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

57. Yeah

This is exactly what I posted in another thread ... she sits in jail for a few months and the whole thing ties itself up in a pretty pink bow.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. Baloney. That's why Fitz went after Cooper AND Miller....all he needed...

...was one of those two people to verify what he is uncovering in his investigation.

[oioioi]

195. I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but...

It's documented that Cooper called Rove and the line is that Rove "confirmed". Regardless of the wishful thinking around here, this seems a weak case for indictment.

I still see nothing to refute the idea that Judy protects the original source and no indictment happens for the leak itself. They might get obstruction or perjury based on GJ testimony, probably for some lesser players, and maybe even Rove, but any prosecution except for the leak itself would still kill the the Plame story and keep the focus on petty revenge for the op-ed.

If they can avoid the leak being pinned on a WH figure, then the whole story fades to gray. To lay this out fully, the media must have a public prosecution which presents the Plame story and WH motivations for the outing from a witness stand on TV.

The big story is exactly why they chose to blow Plame's cover in the first place. It's been posited here that this is much bigger than paying back Wilson for his op-ed.

There are echoes of "Rathergate" spin here. Forgery and distraction from the main issue (WMD intel) and attention on the lesser scandal (WH leak / Op-ed payback). These people are not stupid, they have contingency plans, damn good lawyers and they're playing for keeps.

Nothing I've read so far refutes the suggestion that Judith Miller is the principal buffer. To accept your premise is to believe that Judy really is taking a stand "on principle". Personally, I don't buy this, although I could be wrong - I'm unclear on some points, particularly who Judy is alleged to have told, and why her testimony would have revealed that we don't already have an understanding of.

At this point it seems common knowledge that that Rove was up to his neck in outing Plame, and the motive-du-jour is payback for Wilson's op-ed. Unless there's documentary proof or confirming testimony, there will be no big story.

It's a great yarn, but there's no way they are going to get to the WH on the stuff which seems to be out so far, unless of course Fitzgerald has something else implicating the WH that isn't yet being discussed publically. This seems to be a very real possibility, however nothing that's out now suggests they will get an indictment on the WH. If they get Rove or Cheney, then the potential is that this rises to Watergate proportions. The stakes are pretty high.

If there's no indictment for the leak, there's no public scrutiny of exactly why Plame was outed and the consequences of same and the whole WMD intel fixing story gets swept under the carpet.

[liveoaktx]

51. Sounds to me it's trying to establish that it was common knowledge

about Wilson's wife. Reporters knew, Rove knew, Novak knew, back to the excuse from some time ago.

[Skip Intro]

53. Rove may have testifed to that, but what did Novak testify to?

No doubt in my mind that Novak would lie for Rove, but would Novak have known to lie for Rove? Would that lie be able to withstand a focused scrutiny?

Just to be involved in this crime should be enough. Perps and accessories. That's what I'm thinking.

Its not what they say now, its what they did.

[still_one]

56. "the person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only

on the condition of anonymity..."

BULLSHIT

this is as good as faux news

[are_we_united_yet]

59. Come on people put on your philosophical hats here!

Its a chicken and egg problem. White House got it from reporters while simultaneously, reporters got from White House. This (conveniently) eliminates the possibility that anyone leaked Valerie Plame's name. Her identity was just "known". She was NEVER undercover her name was just "known". Like the tree that didn't fall in the woods. Got it?

Yeah... that's the ticket.

:crazy:

[punpirate]

60. Ummm, this is all disinformation...

... to prop up the assertion that it was common knowledge that Plame was a CIA operative, thus obviating one of the requirements of the intelligence agent identity law. If it's already known, there's no case.

If more than one journalist knew of her identity and role, then the case can be made that it was common knowledge.

But, if Novak and Rove and an "unidentified source in the legal profession" are involved, you can bet, first, that someone's lying, and second, this was planted with a reporter by someone looking to help Rove at a time when he needs more than a little help.

This may also be why there've been whiffs of perjury and obstruction of justices charges floating in the air over Washington.

[progressivebydesign]

65. Ah. Novak has immunity, supposedly. So THIS is the plan????

I see now what Rove is doing. It's brilliant.. I guess you don't have to have a chin to have a brain. Anyhoo.. so Novak supposedly has some type of immunity (otherwise his evil ass would be in jail right now), and so Rove will blame it on Novak, and they'll skip off happily into the sunset... another couple of corrupt old white guys. Groovy.

[txindy]

68. I wouldn't count on anyone having immunity.

The GJ hasn't concluded, so no charges have been filed. The only one in jail is Miller because she wouldn't testify. Novak testified. What he said may well put him in prison. That's to be determined.

I hope Turdbloosom and the Douchebag of Liberty get to share a cot in a maximum security facility, personally.

[fob]

67. Who's got the other quote by nofacts that goes something along the

lines of; "I didn't ask her name, I didn't dig it out. THEY gave me the name and I wrote about it"

How the fuck does that square with above? IT DOESN'T!! Someone is LYING!!

[Lucille]

166. RN's forgotten (by US media) words

"I didn't dig it out. It was given to me. They thought it was significant. They gave me the name, and I used it."

--Robert Novak, as quoted in Newsday, June 23, 2003

[fob]

168. Thanks!

[demgrrrll]

69. I like the Rude Pundit's name for this fiasco, Turdgate. Can't beat it.

There is something about this that seems desperate.

[Princess Turandot]

72. How could Rove be a confirming source for Novak..

as per the article, but claim to have heard this from Novak??

"On Oct. 1, 2003, Mr. Novak wrote another column in which he described calling two officials who were his sources for the earlier column. The first source, whose identity has not been revealed, provided the outlines of the story and was described by Mr. Novak as "no partisan gunslinger." Mr. Novak wrote that when he called a second official for confirmation, the source said, "Oh, you know about it."

"Oh, you know abt it" morphs to "I heard that too" in this article.
I didn't realize that Novak had written a follow-up column on this.
It's nice to know that as a 'reporter' you can publish an article to let your collaborator know what you are planning to say, so he can adjust his story. Saves on super-duper secret cell phone usage.

[Bumblebee]

73. The AP reporter is a lazy bum or worse

This is an outrageous lie -- a total misrepresentation of what Wilson said:

"In an interview on CNN Thursday before the latest revelation, Wilson kept up his criticism of the White House, saying Rove's conduct was an "outrageous abuse of power ... certainly worthy of frog-marching out of the White House."

But at the same time, Wilson acknowledged his wife was no longer in an undercover job at the time Novak's column first identified her. "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity," he said."

Wilson said she was undercover then -- but after she was outed by Novak stopped being one of course. This is almost criminal! Hope Wilson contacts them and yells at them at the top of his lungs!

[Pirate Smile]

148. Contact AP

[Moderator]

76. Kick

[bhunt70]

77. Source: Rove Got CIA Agent ID From Media

WASHINGTON - Presidential confidant Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he learned the identity of a
CIA operative originally from journalists, then informally discussed the information with a Time magazine reporter days before the story broke, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of grand jury proceedings, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh
Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story. The conversation eventually turned to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration's Iraq war policy and the intelligence it used to justify the war, the source said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050715/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/cia_leak_rove

[Erika]

78. Ah, jpurnalist's weren't privy to this info

So who leaked it to Novak? Maybe Novak should be in jail.

[0007]

103. Not a doubt in my mind, that Novak should be in the can.

If this wasn't so serious it would be funny.

[rustydad]

193. Novac is not in jail

because he surely did give up his source to the Grand Jury. Somebody is going to swing for this. Bob

[zoids]

109. That's what I've said all along.

Why does Novak get to skate? Has he revealed his sources? This is such a mess - but I am puzzled, I read that Plame was no longer under-cover when all this happened?!?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

145. Either Rove's lawyer is lying through his teeth, or Rove has lied....

...to the Grand Jury and he's been caught at it.

[Teaser]

79. Source is Rove's lawyer

Let's see, a timed leak to the NY times, WaPo, and AP?

C'mon...

[kenny blankenship]

81. Exactly

a person in the legal profession who also knows what Karl Rove said in his Grand Jury testimony.
That would be his lawyer. So Luskin is trying to prejudice the jury pool by seeding Rover's story to the media--all the media at once.
I wonder how strict Fitzgerald was in instructing people to keep quiet about their testimony. (Whitehouse, or Luskin, finally figured out letting the special prosecutor do his job without the assistance of screechmonkeys looking over his shoulder and trying to swing the case from one 24hr news cycle to the next wasn't working to their advantage.)

[FormerRepublican]

80. Not only that, but...

A Senior White House official hears a rumor about a CIA agent, and he just passes it along to the next reporter like it's true, when he knows it will be attributed back to the White House?

Please.

Their excuses get lamer and lamer with each new spin.

[Lindsay]

82. I think that at this point they've decided that

it's not the quality of spin that matters, just the quantity.

Confuse enough people and they'll stop paying attention.

Don't think it's gonna matter much to Fitzgerald, though.

[shraby]

83. Lawyers aren't allowed in the room with the

grand jury when someone is testifying. If someone in the legal profession is leaking this, it's not one who heard the testimony to the grand jury.

[Zen Democrat]

84. The prosecutor's team are in GJ room for testimony, aren't they?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

95. That's not the story the prosecutors would leak.

[joeunderdog]

120. How ironic--the press is laundering WH info that can't be leaked directly.

Where have I heard that before?

And when Rove found out the press had classified info about CIA ops, when did he start the inquiry to get to the bottom of it? Or did he just say, "Well, now they know. Might as well tell 'em everything."

[ThoughtCriminal]

85. If even remotely true

my money would be on Miller.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

89. What the fuck?

What is that thing?

[yurbud]

92. chupacabra

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

97. Reminds me of the sci-fi movie, "The Thing"....yikes!!

[yurbud]

171. I loved that movie

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[Mokito]

99. That's Sam

Winner of the Worlds Ugliest Dog Award three years in a row. He's retiring this year.

:)

[Roy]

87. It seems everyone is getting classified information..........

From the media (including White House Aides with security clearances), doesn't this send a message to Ms. Miller that after her sacrifices she may be being thrown to the wolves.

If she begin to fear her current accommodations may be extended past the four month grand jury seating, perhaps into years, her lips may become a bit more loose.

The media says she was jailed for not revealing her sources, but from what I understand, she was actually jailed for not cooperating with the investigation.

Could the information sought from her go beyond just her sources into other activities and/or information?

Could she have cooperated with the investigation by testifying to the grand Jury, and refuse to answer the question about her sources?

[enigmatic]

88. This is Rove's Hail Mary

This is obviously leaked by his lawyer in a last-ditch effort to get the heat of Rove, and hope that the MSM will be hooked.

It's too late.

[lumpy]

90. Convoluted lies come one after the other.

"Oh what tangled webs we weave when first we practice to deceive" By God, this administration is clouded with webs of deceit in every area. Unbearable.

[Robert Oak]

91. most pathetic spin yet

What a bunch of shit...blame the journalists as if journalists
have privy to classified information...

or to deflect and pressure the journalists to find out where *they* got the info from...

[AgadorSparticus]

93. What unbelievable nonsense. They are not even making sense anymore!

ugh. I hate these lying bastards. errrrr.

[Mokito]

100. Ah, the dilemma of quicksand

The more you fight it, the faster you sink.

Just the situation they find themselves in now.

[AgadorSparticus]

107. They can't sink fast enough for me. I just hope all the i's are dotted

and t's crossed. But it is comforting to see the drama that is Rove v. Novak unfolding. I hope there's plenty more to come.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

94. More disinformation. Sad, isn't it?

[MinneapolisMatt]

96. "Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he learned the identity...

...of a CIA operative originally from journalists"


Excuse me, but, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- Matt

[radfringe]

98. it's pass the blame ... again

Yet again the bushies are blaming someone else for their own screwup

aren't you just amazed how the bushies take responsibility and maintain accountability for their own actions?

[Lochloosa]

101. Can you say Perjury?

"IF" this is true and not the truth....

Edit: spelling

[choie]

104. god i hate them

Why is the MSM stating this story like it's fact? The Times is not even qualifying. They're saying "karl rove learned name of CIA agent from media". Like it's fact. :argh:

[Virginian]

110. Maybe what you just said is true.

Rove said he did not know the Name Valerie Plame, he knew her as the wife of Joseph Wilson. Novak wouldn't have a hard time finding out her name. Rove wouldn't have a hard time finding out her name either, he just didn't bother to look for it.

MSM is carrying the water for Rover. They are adding their own spin, saying "identity" rather than "name".

IMHO Rove did know her name. Who ever (Cheney, Bolton?) pulled her file had to know her name in order to pull it. That means whoever told him she was a CIA agent, probably said her name. But, maybe they didn't.

PS: I thought it was already a law that if someone violated their security clearance, they would lose it.

[H2O]

105. Testimony

It will take time for these hearings to be completed. I can hear more chants of obstruction of justice charges coming. "At this point in time, I cannot recall," and so on.

The only difference is Rove is so fond of smearing, his mouth is eventually going to leak his own guilt as well as everyone else in the administration.

[pinniped]

102. The Time magazine dude had top-secret security clearance.

Maybe he was a double agent.

[bklyncowgirl]

106. I guess the question is "Does this conflict with Novak's testimony"

It's pretty clear that Novak sang like a little canary bird.

Is this the same story that Novak told the grand jury? If they differ someone is lying.

If they're telling the same story then either they conspired on what they'd tell the special prosecuter, which is a crime, or they're telling the truth.

Of course if they're telling the truth why is this coming out at this late hour.

[drduffy]

108. I don't know....

After I had read about Miller's connection to the neocons (friends with Perle etc.) I wrote in a different post here on DU that a 'tin foil' interpretation would be that Miller got it from the neocons -- 'told Novak' who 'told' Rove - or she told Rove herself - who then could claim innocence in terms of outing anybody since it was already in the media (just not printed yet) and he then told Cooper. Rove could then deny having an pre-knowledge of it all.

I know I know.... fantasy -- and only one of many possibilities. But it wouldn't be past Rove to conjure this whole thing up in advance (with the neocons) and kill at least one bird (Wilson) then and perhaps another later if it came out; i.e., sucker everybody into attacking him (Rove) only to be exonerated and make it even more difficult to get at the Bushies down the road. Plus, he would have made inroads on the journalists' confidentiality of sources etc. - to further the fascist agenda.

Yes, it is convoluted. But Rove - while being a damnable slime slug - has never been known for being particularly stupid. Simply outing a CIA agent to the press would have been stupid.

Maybe Rove will get charged, maybe have to leave the whitehouse..... but I cannot be sanguine about this whole thing.

[Zen Democrat]

111. WP: Rove Confirmed Plame Indirectly, Lawyer Says

This is a companion read to the story up at the NY Times. Most interesting are the mentions of fuzzy memories.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/15/AR2005071500036.html

The lawyer, who has firsthand knowledge of the conversations between Rove and prosecutors, said President Bush's deputy chief of staff has told investigators that he first learned about the operative, Valerie Plame, from a journalist.

"I don't think that he has a clear recollection," the lawyer said. "He's told them that he believes he may have heard it from a journalist." Asked who it was, the lawyer said, "I don't think he's able to identify that, or to identify precisely when he may have heard it."

[applegrove]

112. Yes - the architect of Bush's rise and the creator of the GOP "Big Tent"

is a man who cannot remember details. Right! That right there says that Rove was afraid to lie and afraid to tell the truth.

[Zen Democrat]

113. And ... if he's a "subject" of the investigation, they read him his rights

before testifying. I'm sure that clouded his "memory".

[Mountainman]

114. This sounds like a complete crock of shit to me. Like something a little

kid would make up to lie to the teacher or something.

"No, I didn't do it but I heard about it from someone."

"Who told you?"

"I don't remember."

"When did they tell you?"

"I don't remember, but someone told me."

[shraby]

115. No one but the prosecutor, the witness and

the grand jury have first hand knowledge about what someone testified to. Witnesses lawyers aren't allowed in the room.

[grytpype]

116. There is a total contradiction now!!!

But there is a HUGE CONTRADICTION in the story now!!!!!

NYT says that Novak told Rove Plame's name on July 8 or 9. "Mr. Novak then turned to the subject of Ms. Wilson, identifying her by name, the person said. "

But Rove and Luskin have been saying Rove DID NOT know her name when he spoke to Cooper three days later!!!!!!

Total contradiction!

[WildClarySage]

117. I don't give a f*ck where he heard it from (other than the crime it was

for them to tell Rove) because he still passed that info on, which was still a crime.

Ed to add, dang I need coffee. Hope this made sense in the absence of caffiene.

[Roland99]

118. So, the prosecutors asked the WH to not comment but Luskin bloviates?

WTF?

[Demeter]

119. Who Was It That Said: "Kill them all, and let God sort them out"?

Maybe we need such a policy to cut this Rovian knot?

(Rubs hands gleefully)

Paul Krugman's Friday column points out the complicity of ALL the GOP in enabling Rove and BushCo to get away with telling patently untrue garbage all the time. He neglected to pass on the blame to the media, however, but maybe that's his next column.

[Roland99]

121. ABC's Good Morning America on Rove (Donaldson and Roberts)

Sam Donaldson and Cokie Roberts are RIDICULING Rove and laughing at the new reports that Novak leaked Plame's name TO Rove!

Now they're showing a clip from the The Daily Show.


Rove: "I don't know her name. I didn't leak her name"

Then Stewart ridiculing Rove.



This was great! They were all laughing at Rove!

[GCP]

123. Rove Learned CIA Agent's Name From Novak AP

WASHINGTON - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story.

The conversation eventually turned to Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration's use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said.

more here: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050715/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/cia_leak_rove

He's going to walk.

[grytpype]

124. No he's not.

Fitzgerald is looking at perjury and obstruction of justice charges. So shut the fuck up.

[rustydad]

194. At the least

Rove was told of a fact and that by telling it to Rove the teller was committing a crime. Rove should have reported his conversation to the CIA, FBI, and Justice department ASAP. He was a witness to a serious National Security crime and did not report it. He hangs. Bob

[ET Awful]

125. If the AP wanted to be accurate in the least, they would say

"Rove CLAIMS he learned agent's name from Novak"

Just because Rove told it to the Grand Jury doesn't mean it's true. After all, he also told the world he had nothing to do with the matter at all.

[acmejack]

128. As a long time watcher of Texas politics

I have learned the essential truth of Karl Rove-if his lips are moving, he is LYING!!

[warrior1]

126. So that's the perjury charge

Seems like a damn big one to me.

[MajorFlaw]

127. "Nice try"

[GCP]

131. Hey, I don't want this to go away

But that's the way it seems to me. If he says he got the name from Rove, how can they accuse him of giving away goverment secrets?

[MajorFlaw]

132. If Rove leaked the identity to anyone, it doesn't matter where he

got it from.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MajorFlaw]

141. There is no need . . .

res ipsa loquitor.

[shraby]

129. Check out this take on it.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1930525>

[Media_Lies_Daily]

130. Pure disinformation piled as high as you can get it.

[peace frog]

133. OMG NOOOOOO!!!!!

Rove is going to walk???!!!! Call the FBI!!!!! Call the Washington Post!!!! For God's sake, CALL MIKE WALLACE!!!! AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!! THERE IS NO GOD!!!! I DON'T WANT TO LIVE, I TELL YOU!!!!!






:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[eowyn_of_rohan]

134. Riiiiiiight......

learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources

I don't buy it. Could "poor" Novak be a fall guy?

[Lowell]

150. There are too many holes in this story

Of course the WH and their staff were fully aware of who Ambassador Wilson was and I'm sure they had an extensive dossier on him and his family. GHWBu$h called him a hero for standing up to Saddam before Gulf War I in a face to face confrontation. How could they not know every detail of his career and family?

[underpants]

153. The "news" is actually LITERALLY following the spin

this was the big talking point just yesterday. Gee I wonder if any of the talking heads got a call from someone to precede this "news" item.

[The White Tree]

154. So after reading this, my understadning is that Rove's defense

is that it's the "liberal" medias fault?

Is there nothing they will not use that for?

[rocktivity]

156. All together now--BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!

From AP/Yahoo:
Rove testified that Novak originally called him the Tuesday before Plame's identity was revealed in July 2003 to discuss another story.

The conversation eventually turned to Plame's husband, Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who was strongly criticizing the Bush administration's use of faulty intelligence to justify the war in Iraq, the person said.

Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Niger, according to the source.

So it was the other way around--how terribly we've misjudged you, Karl! Of course, that raises the questions of why you didn't wonder how Novak GOT that information, whether it should become public knowledge, and WHY YOU DIDN'T ADMIT ALL THIS TWO YEARS AGO. Nice try, though!

:headbang:
rocknation

[SuperWonk]

161. Focus of Blame??

"The lawyer, who has firsthand knowledge of the conversations between Rove and prosecutors, said President Bush's deputy chief of staff has told investigators that he first learned about the operative, Valerie Plame, from a journalist."

If Novak is the possible lead on this, why hasn't he been targeted?
Based on the NYT article... aren't his actions the most dubious?

[peacetalksforall]

157. Why is no one thinking broader? The flight to Africa, Tenet, Ashcroft and

the legal advisors.

The other law broken was on the trip to Africa, if true. Classified personnel files were taken on board. They were about Plame and/or Wilson.

I haven't done a timeline, but ii would appear the plan was coordinated on that flight? Fleischer, Powell, Rice and who else besides Bush?

Someone game them that file. CIA.

Cheney had the most to gain - from many angles including business.
PNAC had the most to gain for their war plans.
WHIG was the how to do it team.

Someone had to figure out that they needed to get legal advice.

All in all, they trusted that the right wing media propaganda machines would protect them.

They were at their peak of arrogance.

I think it is a mistake to limit this to Libby and Rove - it just doesn't work that way - they are the ones to pick up the phones. They did not act alone.

Can Fitzgerald also cover the other law broken.

All the key people were in on this because they all were involved in pimping for war and Cheney and his team of PNAC members may have been trying to close down the operation that Plame was investigating.

Look in the trees and the old one - follow the money.

This has $$$$$$$$ all over it.

After all, why did they steal the election - to be honest with the country and its citizens?

Tenet, Powell, Rice, Ashcroft, Cheney, Bush. They are your targets for the true behind the scenes story.

Do you know how fast the propaganda machine can dispose of Libby and Rove?

[wiggs]

170. Question

If Tenet was in on it, couldn't he have torpedoed Plames CIA operation administratively, without exposing the whole lot of them to the risks they are facing now?

There is an underlying story here, I agree...and Tenet's involvement makes sense because otherwise you would expect him to be defending his CIA a lot more vigorously from the outing and from the WMD blame...but outing an agent sure seems like a roundabout way for a CIA director to pull the plug on a CIA operation.

I vote for Tenet not being involved.

[peacetalksforall]

172. Au contraire, but I don't know much. They could have asked Tenet

to give them a file, to stop her operation if it was still in effect, to not stand in the way as they expose her. The timing of his 'firing?' was extremely interesting.

Tenet was caught - he knew the truth about the analysis of the search for wmd and he had a huge staff to protect, and he was a helper in creating the case for war to a certain limit.

No?

[wiggs]

173. Not sure

He has been amazingly passive in all this. But I don't believe that he was active in a lot of this deception.

According to Paul ONeill, all the intelligence ONeill saw was highly qualified. I tend to think that CIA didn't do such a bad job and that the deception happened once the WH had the info.

And read what Tenet actually says to Bush....that the CASE for WMD is a slam dunk with the public. The WH tends to spin that to mean that it's a slam dunk that Iraq has WMD....I can't believe the CIA would say that because it's well known that intelligence is conjecture and sujective and possibly inaccurate. But Tenet was referring to how easy it would be for WH to make the case to the public that Iraq has WMD, and as it turned out, the public bought it hook line and sinker.

Why he allows the perception that he would guarantee WMD in Iraq and that CIA did a bad job, I can't figure out. But to believe that he would be a part of agents being outed is too much even for this cynic.

[peacetalksforall]

192. I remember reading that there was a team sitting in Kuwait, employees

of a corporation with an American sounding name, waiting to plant the wmd. This was during the shock and awe period. Slam dunk?

[skip fox]

163. Rove Goes Down in Plames!!

This seems to work into my theory. Rove is both a main source (for Cooper) and a confirming source for another, Novak. With 6 initial sources and at least 3 confirming calls as reported, someone would have to coordinate the operation, assuring the initial callers that no two called the same source, that no one was eager, but would "drop it in," and a number of other officials would be ready and willing to confirm.


Therefore at least 2 people(Rove and Novak's initial source) served as main sources. (The fact that one source released Cooper from his agreement of confidentiality but one source did not release Miller also suggests at least 2 sources.) Rove would have to coordinate! To establish guidelines like: No source should call another's contact, Pitch the information off hand, not as the main subject, Make the contact think the source is trying to do him or her a favor ("Don't go too far out on this Wilson thing, I don't want you burnt."), etc. AND Rove would have had to field a group of officials to support the sources stories.

I say Rove coordinated because it is obvious he did so since anyone in the administration in possession of the Plame-Wilson-CIA link would have gone straight to the world master of deceitful politics, and now we know Rove was at least one of the leakers.

So, we could have at least 2 indictments for Rove (exposing and conspiring to expose) and (perhaps) 1 or more indictments for others (Novak and/or Miller's source). Not to mention exposure of those who condoned and confirmed the exposure.

I think the great thing we have going for us on this case is Patrick Fitzgerald. By all accounts a fine prosecutor.

[Roon]

164. Rove Learned CIA Agent's Name From Novak

WASHINGTON (AP) - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050715/D8BBQEVO0.html

[not systems]

174. Rove: Novak Told Me CIA Agent's Identity

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2005/07/15/national/w115225D85.DTL

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

Friday, July 15, 2005

(07-15) 11:52 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) --

Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.

...
Rove testified that Novak told him he planned to report in a weekend column that Plame had worked for the CIA, and the circumstances on how her husband traveled to Africa to check bogus claims that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Niger, according to the source.

...
Rove's conversations with Novak and Cooper took place just days after Wilson suggested in a New York Times opinion piece that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

...

[Botany]

175. Flat out lie ......

novak told rove?

Too little too late

[hippiechick]

176. maybe they were playing charades ...

"sounds like..." :eyes:

[Richardo]

177. I confoozed

Is this recent grand jury testimony, or what he has told the GJ in the past?

[babsbunny]

178. Can anyone tell me what this new development implies?

I have a headache in my eye!

[0rganism]

179. Fascinating. So who told Novak, then?

Or does Novakula have a clearance with the CIA himself?

Of course, there's also the "off chance" Rove just perjured himself to the Grand Jury.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Catchawave]

180. Accck...then who told Novak ?

And why isn't his oily ass in jail for not citing his freaking source?

[skip fox]

181. Fantistic! This confirms multiple indictments and coordination of leaks.

Rove and at least one other official will be indicted.

Now we know Rove is both a main source (for Cooper) and a confirming source for another (Novak, from whom he got Plame's name). With 6 initial sources and at least 3 confirming sources (both as reported), someone would have to coordinate the operation, assuring the initial callers that no two called the same source, that no one was overly eager, but would "drop it in," and a number of other officials would be ready and willing to confirm. That person would also have to assure that there were a number of high officials in the administration who were in the know and who would confirm the story when called.


Therefore at least 2 people(Rove and Novak's initial source, perhaps Scooter Libby if today's reports pan out) served as main sources. (The fact that one source released Cooper from his agreement of confidentiality but one source did not release Miller also suggests at least 2 sources.) Rove would have to coordinate! To establish guidelines like: No source should call another's contact, Pitch the information off hand, not as the main subject, Make the contact think the source is trying to do him or her a favor ("Don't go too far out on this Wilson thing, I don't want you burnt."), etc. AND Rove would have had to field a group of officials to support the sources stories.

I say Rove coordinated because it is obvious he did so since anyone in the administration in possession of the Plame-Wilson-CIA link would have gone straight to the world master of deceitful politics, and now we know Rove was at least one of the leakers.

So, we could have at least 2 indictments for Rove (exposing and conspiring to expose) and (perhaps) 1 or more indictments for others (Novak and/or Miller's source). Not to mention exposure of those who condoned and confirmed the exposure.

I think the great thing we have going for us on this case is Patrick Fitzgerald. By all accounts a fine prosecutor.


Wow.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

182. via unnamed sources.

"The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy"

I wonder if this unnamed source is doing anything illegal in revealing grand jury testimony. ? I am sure its not from the Rove camp tho, as they said they werent discussing the matter. ;)

[melissinha]

183. I'll spin Scotty for ya

MR. McCLELLAN: Yes, but this question is coming up in the context of this ongoing investigation, and that's why I said that our policy continues to be that we're not going to get into commenting on an ongoing criminal investigation from this podium. The prosecutors overseeing the investigation had expressed a preference to us that one way to help the investigation is not to be commenting on it from this podium. And so that's why we are not going to get into commenting on it while it is an ongoing investigation, or questions related to it.

IN a response to Novak's "supposed" question to vet information that Mr. Wilson's wife suggested he be spent to Niger:
If Mrs. Wilson WERE an agent, this question is coming up in the context of classified information, and that's why I said that our policy continues to be that we're not going to get into commenting on classified information. Nondisclosure agreements require that we not be commenting on this from this office. And so that's why we are not going to get into commenting on any classified information.

[OKNancy]

184. Kick

[neuvocat]

185. Source: Rove says reporters told him of Plame

WASHINGTON - Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of an undercover CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources, according to a person briefed on the testimony.

The person, who works in the legal profession and spoke only on condition of anonymity because of grand jury secrecy, told The Associated Press that Rove testified last year that he remembers specifically being told by columnist Robert Novak that Valerie Plame, the wife of a harsh Iraq war critic, worked for the CIA.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8577190/


Sorry about posting this twice (I thought it was a spoof at first).

[Canuckistanian]

186. The last flailings of a drowning man.

Pitiful, really.

Unfortunately, this will be reported dutifully with a straight face.

[rateyes]

187. As I see it, it doesn't matter where Rove got it...

if he shared classified information, whether or not he was entitled to see it, even if it was just confirming gossip--he's guilty.

And, he's guilty of espionage.--US Code 18, Sec. 793.

In fact, whoever first shared with an unauthorized person the classified report Powell took on AF-1 with Bush/Rice/others to Africa --which contained the name of Plame's "place of work" which was a CIA front---which name has been reported all over the place--is guilty of espionage--and all who repeated it, including reporters, with someone not authorized to see it is guilty of espionage--and anyone who tried to cover up the leak is also guilty of espionage.

The whole administration is guilty--and, every damn reporter who shared it with someone else---even if they DIDN'T publish it in the paper, is guilty. And, if Fitzgerald proves it there are a hell of a lot more people, and bigger fish than Rove going to jail. Unless of course, President Denny Hastert pardons them all upon taking office after Bush's and Cheney's impeachment.

Edit to add the following links:

http://frwebgate1.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=466656262330+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

http://frwebgate3.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=4691178726+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

Edit to add: Neither of the above links is the law pertaining to outing a CIA operative. It's the law against sharing classified information that has the potential to hurt this country, or help an enemy. One word for it is espionage. The other word for it is TREASON.

[lovuian]

188. well we have to see if Rove ever saw her file??? the telephone

records did he call Cooper first then called Novak.

if Phone records and emails dates confirm that Cooper got the first call before Novak thats another perjury account!!!

But it also leaves Novak very open to being in Big Trouble!!!

and yet he still has a job by the media getting paid the bucks to undermine our National Security!!!

[Barrett808]

189. So he admitted that he lied to the FBI?

...During questioning by the FBI about his role in the Plame affair, Rove told federal agents that he only started sharing information about Plame with reporters and White House officials for the first time after conservative columnist Robert Novak identified her covert CIA status in his column on July 14, 2003.

But Rove wasn’t truthful with the FBI, what with the recent disclosure of Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper’s emails, which reveal Rove as the source for Cooper’s own July 2003 story identifying Plame as a CIA operative, and show that Rove spoke to Cooper nearly a week before Novak’s column was published and, according to previously published news reports, spoke to a half-dozen other reporters about Plame as early as June 2003. ...

Jason Leopold: Report Shows Rove May Have Lied to FBI, A Felony
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1629014