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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:08 AM
Original message
Statement claiming London attacks : BBC
Statement claiming London attacks
The BBC has located an Islamist website that has published a 200-word statement issued by an organisation saying it carried out the London bombings.

The organisation calls itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organisation in Europe.


"In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and undaunted fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.

Nation of Islam and Arab nation: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge against the British Zionist Crusader government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan. The heroic mujahideen have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.
MORE:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. They're sick people who need to be removed from this earth.
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tigereye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I had no idea!
haven't turned on the tv today... that is terrible!
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NuConvert Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. We Are All Londoners Today (eom)
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. Well, that may be true, but remember who it was that launched
an unprovoked invasion of a disarmed country and murdered 112,000 Iraqis. How many times sicker are those people?? THAT is what these people are responding to.
It's sad when innocent people die, but why do we discount tens of thousands of innocent people that WE dispatch? Are we not sick and in need of removal from the earth for our behavior?
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I have to agree with you completely. :(
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youspeakmylanguage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Sick and disgusting...
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 10:16 AM by youspeakmylanguage
an unprovoked invasion of a disarmed country and murdered 112,000 Iraqis.

It's closer to 26,000. Any number of dead civilians is too many, but how did the numbers get inflated to four times their actual size?

we not sick and in need of removal from the earth for our behavior?

However you read that or want to interpret it, it's a sick and disgusting statement. The people killed today, just like the people on 9/11, were ordinary people of all political beliefs and ideologies. It's even more likely in London that the people killed never supported Blair or the war in Iraq.

You DO NOT represent the majority of people here at DU.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. Iraqbodycount shows media reported deaths
The 100,000+ figure is from survey data published in a medical journal. Both estimates have uncertainties associated with them (as does any statistical process) - in either case the death tolls are very high, though.

Nobody is expected to represent majority opinion here. What would be the point of a discussion group where everyone held the same viewpoint?
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
54. Didn't we warn about inciting more terrorism?
That's all the poster was trying to say. Once we invaded Iraq, we incited more terrorism. We expected it. We talked about it here on DU constantly. Now that it's happened, and somebody pointed it out, they're "sick and disgusting"? (By the way, why do you thing YOU represent the majority here at DU? Please speak for yourself.)
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
63. Well, she speaks for me
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:25 PM by KevinJ
As far as I'm aware, leesa never claimed that today's terrorist attacks were laudable, but rather that we shouldn't be too surprised to see this sort of stuff happen given the example we're setting for the world. And I agree entirely. It is staggeringly hypocritical to present ourselves as some sort of defender of liberty and justice against evil terrorists while we're torturing people to death in our gulags, cruise-missiling apartment buildings, and massacring civilians at a rate terrorists can't even begin to match.

And leesa's numbers are not inflated, at least not according to the study conducted by Johns Hopkins and Columbia (both highly credible institutions, I think you'd agree) in October 2004 which found that at least 100,000 Iraqi civilian deaths were attributable to our invasion of Iraq, and that was nine months ago, who knows what it's up to now? And, as I believe others have mentioned, Iraq Body Count only counts reported deaths, which, by their own admission, represents but a sliver of the true death count. So ease up on the allegations of number inflation - Johns Hopkins and Columbia may be wrong, but leesa's got a perfectly respectable source for her figures.

Again, none of that excuses the terrorists, but one does reap what one sews, and so long as we consider ever escalating violence to be the sole response to terrorism, they in turn will respond in kind. That really shouldn't surprise anyone.
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youspeakmylanguage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
116. Not once did you mention the pivotal line in her post...
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 04:37 PM by youspeakmylanguage
Are we not sick and in need of removal from the earth for our behavior?

I personally don't think that the families of those who died this morning are particularly eager to accept leesa's view on cosmic justice. Nor do I feel that a terrorist has the right to kill me in an explosion just because I happen to be an American and Chimpy McCokespoon happens to be president, especially since I didn't vote for the bastard - twice.

Please, justify this.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #116
130. I believe it's called a rhetorical question
I don't think leesa's intent was to suggest that we need to be removed from the earth, but rather to question by what right we presume to dispense mortal "justice" on everyone else. I agree that a terrorist doesn't have a right to kill you because you happen to live in the US under a facist dictatorship. I rather imagine though that the Iraqi family dragging the remains of their loved ones from the rubble of a building hit by a US cruise missile must ask themselves what right the US has to kill them with a Tomahawk missile just because they happen to be Iraqi and Saddam Hussein happened to be dictator, especially since they didn't vote for the bastard - ever. Cuts both ways, you know?
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #130
140. very well said, kevin. n/t
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soaky Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #116
134. that pivotal line was in response to post #1
if one set of bombers/terrorists are 'sick and in need of removal from the earth' then what's wrong with asking if another flavour of bombers/terrorists are in need of the same?
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #116
143. chill, dude! you are reading too much into this and trying to filibuster
the point!
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chomskysright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #116
176. LEAVE IRAQ NOW , POODLE
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
92. What is that about?
No one is allowed to voice an opinion that isn't the majority?

I can't even say anymore or I'll get banned.
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youspeakmylanguage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #92
114. She voiced hers, I voiced mine...
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 04:38 PM by youspeakmylanguage
I understand the feeling - I almost got banned earlier myself because the asinine BS being tossed around this morning, posts such as the ones by leesa and yourself.

Are we not sick and in need of removal from the earth for our behavior?

Please, justify that line any way you'd like. I promise not to "alert" a mod.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
98. Dead Iraqis make you touchy?
I'm tired of seeing their deaths forgotten - it's always "b*s* killed ___ soldiers!"

People forget the Iraqi deaths far too often.

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
142. actually, I agree with the views, we have terrorized Iraq & its citizens
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hoboken123 Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
152. Any idea what you're talking about

It's closer to 26,000. Any number of dead civilians is too many, but how did the numbers get inflated to four times their actual size?



Using the number reported by iraqBodyCount.com as the total number killed?

From there website:

Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths - which can only be a sample of true deaths unless one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media.


How disingenuous. At least you're consistent with your postings.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
36. Were 911 and Bali in response to Iraq too?
How about the bombings in Istanbul and Tunisia?

AQ has a much broader vision and goal than Iraq, and they don't share your moral concerns.
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geomon666 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
62. It's more likely that...
9/11 and Bali were in response to our military presence in Saudi Arabia and our continued support of Israels occupation over Palestinian territories.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #62
117. More likely in response to
The Oil Companies' exploitation of the Arab Proletariat

The House of Saud's complicity in that exploitation

The US's complicity in that exploitation.

I was in "Coast Guard Port Security" in the Oil Coast of Mississippi-Louisiana-Texas and the Cancer River (Mississippi River) and the Cancer Ship Channel (Houston Ship Channel - Buffalo Bayou)- and I won't go anywhere near that area --- that's where the "Next One" will be in the US.
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
96. Bali and Istanbul were to prove that al Qaeda was still powerful
After the Taliban fell.

I am a little suprised that you don't know that.

Why does it seem that you are actuall against the people here?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #96
122. The point is that the notion that the AQ terrorists are merely responding
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 05:08 PM by geek tragedy
to US aggression is false. They were launching these attacks before the invasion of Iraq--there's no reason to think they were going to go into voluntary retirement.

Now, if it is revealed that it was Iraqis who did this bombing, then we'll have a different discussion.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #122
141. sounds like the ed schultz show to me. i think this is just what
he was saying today. did you hear it?
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #122
171. You're newer to the grudge match than al Qaeda is
You keep pointing to pre-Iraq war acts of terrorism by al Qaeda as evidence that they aren't responding to US aggression, but instead are motivated by... um, what again was their motivation according to you? Oh yes, they're evil and hate us for our freedoms. Right, well, whatever. What you're missing here is that, from al Qaeda's point of view, the American invasion of Iraq is but the latest in a long-standing history of what they righty or wrongly perceive as anti-Arab, anti-Islam foreign policies. For al Qaeda, the grudge match didn't start with Iraq; rather it's been going on for decades and today's events are just a continuation of that same struggle.
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Talismom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
90. Yours is a much more balanced perspective.
Reading it makes me feel safer--just to know there are people who think this way!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #90
100. Welcome to DU, Talismom! I agree.
It's nice to have people who aren't kneejerk arrogant nationalists here.

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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
112. All terrorism is wrong, including...
...state terrorism.

As we justly condemn the horrible attacks of 9/11 and now those on London, so too we must condemn the murder of innocent Iraqis by invaders.

Until our society is honest about this, we shall continue facing hard times. Who doubts it?
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #112
118. When western society gets attacked it's an overwhelming
tragedy and must be stopped...yes, it IS overwhelming and it IS horrific when this happens to ANYONE--and this happens EVERY DAMN DAY around the globe one way or another in extremely poor nations and most often to people of color--their EVERYDAY LIVES are a tightrope walk of survival and terror of various heinous behavior - usually against a backdrop of western financial, resource and political interests-as they are interconnected. And yes, this includes their own propped up leaders that are corrupt and getting paid off to keep their citizens down.

Today is yet another tragedy in a long list of horrors that ALL of humankind has inflicted upon each other since our first breath. This, imo, is what needs to be stopped.

-So, after bush, blair and anyone else jumps on the 'go ahead and bomb the entire ME into oblivion'tour bus (except, of course, steer clear of the oil fields)what happens the day after that? Western societies are saved? that's it-things are magically better? or, just more of the same only worse...

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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
115. I Have To Agree As Well
By placing the two (attacks) side by side, you begin to see the disconnect in the spin. They realy do feed on that "emotional knee jerking", don't they. I really believe the terrorists were hoping for an agressive knee jerk reaction.
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
121. We too
you're damned right Lisa. Some of us act SO holier than thou but as you pointed out. "Who started this? Mr. Half witted Gearge W. Bush !
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
135. Thank you Leesa... You definitely speak for me
Over one million Iraqis killed during this obscene 14+ year war against their country...

Who's sicker indeed!
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
146. All terrorism and unjustified wars must be condemned
I read your statement here as taking a rather ho-hum attitude towards the killing of civilians in the UK. That is strikingly similar to the attitude of the neoconservatives with regard to the killing of Iraqi civilians ("Oh well, that's, you know, unfortunate, but Saddam was a really bad man who killed a lot of civilians too, and thank God he's out of power now..")

One of the few things that I think you will get 100% agreement upon at DU is that the Iraq War was dead wrong. So let's not even suggest that just because someone has the temerity to call these terrorist killers out for who they are that they are now somehow supporters of the Iraq war. That is not fair.

Believe it or not, George W. Bush and his people are not the only evil people in the world. nor is America the sole reason that evil exists elsewhere in the world.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #146
150. BRAVO! Well Stated!!!
:applause:
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
68. It is possible that this is EXACTLY the reaction that whoever was
behind this bombing desired. It could be that they need the people to support the occupation of Iraq again. After all, Bu*h, Blair and their bloody war for oil and empire have been immensely unpopular lately.

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
(Hermann Goering, Nuremberg, Germany, April 18, 1946)

Personally, I don't believe for a second that it was "The Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organisation in Europe" (*snarf* - That sounds suspiciously like some name a RWer would come up with and put on a dummy Islamic website)

IMO, the odds are 100 to 1 that the PNAC was behind it. They stand to gain the most by the bombing. They made a claim to world empire, they lied us into a war, they desperately want to continue the war, and this is a way to gain support for it. It worked for them on 9/11, and there is no reason for them to believe, that with this bombing, that it will not work again.

And I agree. The murderous psychopaths behind this bombing are very sick people, serial mass murderers, and need to be arrested, tried, convicted, and removed from society forever. But we need to make sure that we get the people that were/are really behind it.

Otherwise, we might be fooled into believing that some sick old guy in a cave in Pakistan was behind it, and then go out and attack some faraway country that had nothing whatsoever to do with this tragedy.
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #68
97. Agreed. Turn the tables on them.
Though I don't think the Bushies did this or even allowed it.

They will use it.

We need to remind people this is blowback and that Bush has made Iraq into an even more effective training ground for al Qaeda than Afghanistan was (according to the CIA).
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #68
129. YOU ARE RIGHT- this is a FAKE ISLAMIC Website-to TARGET the BLAME
All these people are falling right into the hate/blame trap-

So easy to get the masses to jump the gun-
The media has people by the balls-
Unless we see proof we should all be so intelligent to doubt the existence of this ultra long named organization.
--Let's see them trace the origin of this website-
probably straight to Washington D.C.-
-There is probably a way to identify the origin-If they don't it is because they'd prefer not to.
If it were "posted" on verifiable Al Keye Duh websites that would be one thing.
People are jerking into reflex action just like 911.
Oklahoma City Bombing was not Al Keye Duh.
But I'd bet people would believe that it was had there been a "dummy" fake "Islamic" website claiming responsibility.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
71. What did you expect? Learning from the best - *!
Seriously, what did you all expect? We're killing people needlessly, INNOCENT people. We've bombed without concern over who we are hitting or killing. We've created the "monsters under the bed". They've lost all that they have - except revenge. They're only doing what we've done to them.

Just throw a little tag line such as... "There were suspected terrorists on the trains" - and it makes it all okay, right? I mean, each and every one of us is a suspected terrorist to them. If we are called up or drafted to fight? Are we not the enemy? Are they not bringing to us, what we brought to them?

F*cking * & blair!!!
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
83. each and every one is a terrorist to them?
That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read here. The perpetrators of today's terror attack were not trying to kill potential British terrorists or even potential British soldiers.Hell, even in Iraq, most of the insurgents bombings are directed at Iraqi police stations, recruiting centers etc. The purpose of today's attacks was terror --- pure and simple. It was to kill and maim innocent Brits (and tourists) going about their business without regard to their views about anything or their power to do anything about it.

Was it surprising? No. Anyone with half a brain has been predicting that the war in Iraq was going to make the world less safe, not more safe. Was it justified? No. I condemn our invasion of Iraq every day. That doesn't mean that I can't also condemn a bunch of assholes who think that a heroic way to fight back is to kill innocents.

onenote
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
91. Then what are we?
We killed over 100,000 in Iraq. That was as of last summer and not counting the Fallujah massacre of April 2004.

It should be about 200,000 now.

Why don't you tell me what that makes us?
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swag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you, God, for your healing gift of religion.
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. Amen! nt
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. But no thank you for the hatred religion inspires.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
59. Amen. "The opiate of the masses" will end up killing us all.
Thank "God" we all have our respective Paradise to spend eternity in. :eyes:
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RadiDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
81. "Thank you, 'Mankind' for your healing gift of religion"
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #81
101. Zing! It has the ring of truth.
NT!

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justinsb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. It doesn't mean anything yet
Anyone can have a website, and post anything on it. Also, according to the CBC this does not have the mark of an Al Queda attack - Al Queda would have packed screws and nails around the bombs to cause more damage.
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Not enough damage for Al Queda?
That's the second time I've heard that this morning--that Al Queda would have done a lot more damage.
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Morose Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. Reads like a Caricature to me.
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:43 PM by Morose
Yes...terrorists are insane fanatics...but that doesn't mean they're characters from saturday morning cartoons.

Have Al Queda announcements really sounded like this in the past? Sorry I'm just hyper skeptical of everything these days. I smell a multitude of rats.

If Goldstein does not exist, we will create him.
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deacon2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #69
88. Agreed. The syntax is questionable at best
and seems like "pouring the ocean into a teacup" in terms of getting in all the "Islamicisms." Very awkward, indeed. Al Qaeda agitprop generally uses a smaller amount of religiosity to begin their statements and tends to focus more on the pseudo-political rhetoric and "justification" of the action. It is extremely puzzling as well to typify and assign an "attribute" to mhmd which grammatically interrupts the blessings upon him - he is the servant of Allah, and is to be respected but in no way reverenced in a similar fashion to invoking the 99 Names. Stranger still to use the word "God" versus Allah (although this could be a translational idiosyncracy as they are in fact the same term). Just doesn't feel at all authentic.

Call me a cynic as well, but Oswald's and Sirhan Sirhan's "diaries" come to mind all too quickly... and the utter convenience and coincidence of the timing with Mr. Rove's likely indictment.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #69
102. Abu Musab al-Goldstein does exist, he's allegedly in Iraq...
...hopping around on that one leg he still has, feeling great at the number of times he's come back from the dead!

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Liberal Dose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #102
107. Oh c'mon now. You know he grew the leg back too. n/t
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Has anyone even heard of this group before today?
This sounds like a made-up name. Does anyone have any information as to whether they actually exist?
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Monkie Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. very specifically NO.see thread...
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rsmith6621 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. Well


If Bush would have stuck to his guns in Afganastand and stayed focused there instaead of faking up a war in Iraq maybe this event wouldnt have happened......

Sounds to me like AQ is regrouping.....
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
74. But he wanted to be known as a "War President".
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 12:51 PM by reprobate

At least that's what he told his ghostwriter, a man named Hershowitz(sp?) IIRC. This was in 1999, and he was already planning to invade Iraq then. He wanted to pay back Hussain for GulfWar I, but more importantly he believed that a president who won a war had the 'political capital' to get any agenda he wanted thru congress.

Of course, when his staff heard about this interview, they demanded all the writers notes and tapes, so you'll never see it in print. I saw an interview with him on FreeSpeechTV in which he said this.

So you see, even as far back as 1999 he was planning war in iraq and it was only so he could have the power to push his fascist plans into being.

To bad the M$M never reported this. The man is not only a war criminal, he's also a mass murderer, and a traitor. Spread the word.
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CHICKEN CAPITOL USA Donating Member (174 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #74
169. I personally now hereby label him the "WarP RESIDENT"-he's pretty warped
Warp resident--beam me up scotty
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. Yes they're all crazy religious zealots
What kind of feeble excuse are "the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan"? They think we're going to fall for that old line?
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. Various "grammatical and theological errors in the text".
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 09:24 AM by allemand
London, 7 July (AKI) - Terrorism experts are analysing the claim of responsibility for Thursday's London bombings by a group claiming to be al-Qaeda's European arm. A formation calling itself the Group of the Secret Organisation of al-Qaeda in Europe issued a brief statement posted on the Internet saying it was behind the blasts. Some important Islamist forums, often used for the posting of terrorist group claims, have removed the message, asking members not to spread "this sort of false statement" and some subscribers have also judged it unreliable because of various grammatical and theological errors in the text.

It is difficult to assess the validity of the claim because it is the first time that a group with this name has appeared on the Internet. Unlike other terrorist formations, such as that of Jordanian militant Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, there is no code or nom de plume used to establish its genuinity.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Terrorism&loi...

BTW, my own thread on this statement was closed and combined with another thread. I hope that this thread doesn't suffer the same fate.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. There are keyboard commandos in the Arabic-speaking world, too.
(sigh) :eyes:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
41. El CIAda?
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
76. Of course, it was Al-CIAda.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #76
99. a cartoon from a UK website.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
136. They are not only criminal but insultingly transparent & sloppy.


Say... WHERE ARE those pictures of Abu-Ghraib?
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. Only people to blame for this attack: Bush and Blair
and the neocons who , by attacking a sovereign country that was no threat, have created more terrorists in the ME and in the world. Bush did exactly what Bin Laden wanted.
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. And what about the Islamist terrorists?
Are they not to be blamed?
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Nah...doncha know? They're the victims here.
:sarcasm:
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Whatever we do, we must avoid blaming brave resistance fighters
and martyrs like the ones who carried out the resistance operation and killed in the infidels in London.

:sarcasm:

The lengths to which people will go to avoid placing responsibility squarely where it belongs is astonishing.

:toast:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Bad bad religious zealots! Shame on them for not cooperating
with our Global War on Terror, and coming up with flimsy excuses like "the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan" to disguise their crazy, irrational hatred and refusal to covet our American values!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
75. This is a part of the problem,wtmusic.
Bushco launched a Separate (two-pronged)War against Moslem and other nations that do not follow so-called Christian democratic values. The war of revenge has become a war involving the world, affecting the welfare of the entire planet. Not being content with invading and decimating Afghanistan in the attempt to punish the leader of a radical group, Bushco went on to invading Iraq, a contained country that was not an immediate threat to anyone. As you sow, so shall you reap. Revenge coupled with a large amount of greed will bring us to The Earth Abides.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
61. How do you know it wasn't British Intelligence that carried this out.

YOU DON'T !

You think it would be the first time that a Western Intelligence Service
killed those it's supposed to protect?

Get with the program these fuckers are playing for keeps.

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Jimdish25 Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. I'm sure you have evidence to support that?
I know it's fun running your (typekey) mouth but you hurt a lot of people making irresponsible accusations like that, and show a complete disrespect for honest law enforcement personnel that have been and will continue to be targets of terrorism. Anyone bringing down the level of discourse to that level does a disservice to people genuinely against the policies of this administration by discrediting our arguments and distracting us from the real issues.

This is a sad day but once we know who's responsible (unlike Bush) Brits can formulate a response. The only thing that worries me is Bush actually being nearby to try to yank Blair's leash again.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #67
86. You think they care about us. LOL
This is the html version of the file http://www.css.ethz.ch/mediadesk/PDF_Reports_2004_05/Ga... .

To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:YiX0ilxN-zgJ:www.c...


www.ethlife.ethz.ch
Rubrik: Science Life
Conference "Nato Secret Armies and P26"
The dark side of the West
Published: 10.02.2005 06:00
Modified: 09.02.2005 21:41

During the Cold War secret armies in all West European states prepared themselves for
possible Soviet invasion. An ETH study was presented last week that shows how these
hidden groups operated and did not even shrink from terror attacks against their own
people.


By Felix Wrsten
It is now a little more than fifteen years since the fall of the Wall in Berlin brought the Cold War
to an end. The division of Europe into two hostile spheres of control that had lasted for
decades was thus overcome. Previous to this each side had done everything conceivable to
maintain control over its sphere of influenceat any price. That the East resorted to drastic
measures during the Cold War is borne out for example by the tragic events in Hungary or
former Czechoslovakia.
By contrast, there is hardly any awareness today of how cohesion in the West was maintained.
True, at the beginning of the 1990s, due to revelations in Italy, Belgium and Switzerland, the
public learned that the western alliance had not always been squeamish when it came to
choosing its ways and means. Most states, however, steadfastly refuse to shed any light on
incidents pertaining to the Cold War. Some light now comes from a new publication (1) from
the Center for Security Studies (CSS) at ETH Zurich (2) , which was presented to the public
last week.

Direct connections to the Pentagon
During the Cold War, explains the author of the study, Daniele Ganser, NATO set up so-called
"stay-behind" networks. These were secret organisations thatin the eventuality that a country
was invadedwould fight the Soviet occupying forces from the underground. There was close
co-operation between the different national organisations. Co-ordination was upheld by two
secret sub-divisions of "Shape", NATO's Headquarters, which was directly subordinate to top
NATO commanding officer in Europe (Saceur). Direct connections also existed to the Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA) in the USA and to the British Secret Service, MI6.
Secret underground armies existed also in the neutral countries. In Switzerland it was the
organisation known as P26, the existence of which was brought to light in 1990 by a
parliamentary committee for investigation (PUK-EMD) investigating the military department.
P26 was not directly involved in the network of NATO's secret armies but it had close contact
to MI6. In Austria in 1990 too, the government was obliged to admit that an underground
organisation had existed.

Andreotti unveils the unbelievable
NATO's secret armies are a dark spot on the history of Western Europe. In a number of
countries they attempted to influence political developments with terrorist activities. In Italy in
1990, the then Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti publicised the existence of the secret army
"Gladio" under pressure from the investigators. Gladio was controlled by the military secret
service Sismi and worked in close collaboration with the CIA. But apparently Gladio was also
in league with the Mafia, the fascists and the Catholic Church.
The aim was to hinderat any pricethe government participation of the communists. Ministers
of this party, so the fear, could pass on secrets to the Soviet Union, thus undermining NATO
from the inside. Gladio did not flinch from cowardly terrorist attacks against its own people.
The population was to be unsettled so they would demand more security from the state. By
using false trails and exerting control over the the judiciary, Gladio succeeded in laying the
blame on the political opponents.
In France and Germany (where former SS officers were involved), as well as in Norway and
Belgium secret armies carried out terrorist strikes. In Greece one such was involved in a
military putsch and in Turkey so-called "counter-guerrilla" groups fought against the Kurds.
Following the revelations of Switzerland's PUK-EMD commission, the suspicion was voiced for
the first time that P26 had carried out strikes. The suspicion, however, could not be confirmed.
What did the politicians know?
In the panel discussion following the presentations Hans Senn, former lieutenant general and
General Chief of Staff of the Swiss Army between 1977 and 1980, told how, in the middle of
his term of office, he was informed of the existence of a secret espionage and defence
organisation. He tolerated the existence of the organisation for security political reasons. It
already became clear in 1980 in the wake of the Schilling/Bachmann affair that there was also
a secret group in Switzerland. For this reason the later investigations of the military
department by PUK-EMD appear strange, said Senn. All politicians were in a position to know
that there existed a covertly operating group in Switzerland. Senn still finds it scandalous that
his successor, Jrg Zumstein, was decried as a "putsch general" by the Social Democrats
Lively discussion on the hidden activities of secret
service agents (from the left): Daniele Ganser
(author of the study), Professor Andreas Wenger
(Director of CSS, ETH Zurich), Professor Georg
Kreis (Director of the Europe Institute at the
University of Basle), Hans Senn (Company
Commander rtd.), Helmut Hubacher (former
Member of Parliament), Bruno Lezzi (journalist,
NZZ).
Page 2 of 3
Science Life: ETH Life - ETH Zurich's weekly web journal in English.
11.03.2005
http://www.ethlife.ethz.ch/e/articles/sciencelife/html_...
Page 3
(SP). There can be no doubt, he said, about the democratic disposition of the commanding
officers of the army.
Former Member of Parliament, Helmut Hubacher, President of SP Switzerland between 1975
and 1990, vehemently contradicted Senn. Although it had been known that "special services"
existed within the army, he said, as a politician he never at any time could have known that the
secret army, P26 was behind this. Hubacher pointed out that the President of PUK-EMD, the
right-wing politician from Appenzell and member of the Council of States for that Canton, Carlo
Schmid, had suffered "like a dog" during the commission's investigations. The world of many
right-wing politicians was shattered at that time.
Incompetent media
Hubacher found it especially disturbing that P26 was not only there to organise resistance in
the case of occupation. It also had a mandate to become active should the left succeed in
achieving a parliamentary majority. P26 was therefore not as harmless as it is presented by
the generals today. There was, however, agreement amongst those on the panel that the
chances of a successful putsch happening in Switzerland had been slim.
Bruno Lezzi, journalist and military expert with the NZZ and one-time member of the sub-unit
"Intelligence Service" of the Federal Department of Defence, does not doubt the democratic
persuasion of those involved either. But he was astounded in 1990, he said, about the way in
which the affair was handled by the media. Lezzi grants his professional colleagues a
remarkably high degree of incompetence. The manner in which the administration in Berne
had dealt with the matter was not exactly professional either. Instead of taking the lead and
communicating openly it reacted to the revelations in the press from day to day.
With the benefit of hindsight Lezzi threw the question into the round of whether, if the situation
had become serious, P26 would really have been capable of taking up the fight. On a visit to
the Chechnyan capital Grozny before the war, he himself had come to realise that notions in
Switzerland of what a modern war really meant were totally erroneous.
Footnotes:
(1)
Daniele Ganser: Nato's Secret Armies. Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe. Frank Cass.
London 2005. Project information at: www.isn.ethz.ch/php/collections/coll_gladio.htm
(www.isn.ethz.ch/php/collections/coll_gladio.htm )

Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
80. How do you know it wasn't a Zoroastrian monk named Vilma who planned
this?

YOU DON'T!
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
79. We know the lengths that people
will go to avoid placing responsibility where it belongs. :sarcasn:
Bushco stretched those lengths by invading Afghanistan and Iraq in the attempt to capture the perpetrators of 9/11, in the process killing thousands of innocents creating a scene that has invited a thirst for revenge for those lives taken as a result of those invasions. Oh, well, the world is over populated anyway (sarcasm). Perhaps the death toll will be evened up after all and death & revenge will rule the world.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
137. God forbid we blame the obscene war criminals behind this!
The poor misunderstood lambs... always being trashed by the Left.

For the second time today, another fine statement from you:

The lengths to which people will go to avoid placing responsibility squarely where it belongs is astonishing.

Now we just need to do a little work on defining who the real war criminals and terrorists are. I'll give you a hint, they send their Armies to destroy entire cities...
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #137
155. If you don't consider the people who bombed the WTC, Bali, Madrid,
and now London "real war criminals and terrorists" well then I guess that speaks for itself.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. These attacks would not have happened
if Bush and Blair would not have attacked Iraq. The neocon war fed right into the hands of Bin Laden. I am not surprised this happened, and I have a bad feeling it will continue to happen as long as the US wages illegal wars..the terrorists are assholes, also, but there wouldnt BE so many of them now if we kept out of the ME and stopped murdering and waging war on them..for every Iraqi we killed, a thousand become terrorists.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. The terrorists told you why they bombed London? Did they also explain
Bali to you as well? How about 911?

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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. You are so right! I can't BELIEVE we are even arguing about this!
:wtf:
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. Because there was plenty of AQ terrorism before the invasion of Iraq?
Anyone who claims that these attacks happened only because of Iraq is talking out of their ass.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Precisely.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. as I said, for every Iraqi killed, Bush and Blair
have created a thousand terrorists...I knew this would happen, it was only a matter of when...
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. It was happening before we invaded Iraq. There's no reason to think that
AQ would have stopped killing people if we hadn't invaded Iraq.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. We had a chance before 9/11
to behave in a civilized manner..we as a country have been liars and thieves, from funding the Taleban in the 80s to sending our oil companies to rape and pillage all over the world..we are reaping what we have sown..and so is Blair..we reap what we sow..we have killed over 100,000 Iraqi people just to steal their oil..and we think terrorists will stop? No, it will get worse now thanks to Bush and Blair..who themselves are terrorists.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Sorry, I can't join the "we deserve to be killed" chorus. I'm sure you'll
understand.

Btw, the Taliban didn't exist as a movement in the 1980's.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. Nobody's saying 'we deserved to be killed'
on the other hand, don't be too surprised when Muslim 'extremists' start killing back
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. Exactly
How many times has the administration repeated that we are in a "war" on terrorism, and used that as justification for declaring persons to be enemy combatants, suspending civil liberties, giving bazillions in taxpayer dollars to the Pentagon praetorians, etc., etc.? We'd need to construct a massive supercomputer to track the number of times we're referred to this effort as a "war." Well, I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but in pretty much every war I've ever heard of, both sides fight. Who ever heard of a war where one side fights and the other side just graciously lays down and dies? Sorry, but pleasing as that fantasy is, this is plainly not that kind of war; this is the more traditional form of war where the other side fights back. We can't have it both ways: either we're in a war, in which case opposition should be expected, or we're going after criminals, in which case they are entitled to a day in court.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #66
127. Remember the embassy bombings? Bali? Turkey? Tunisia?
The AQ campaign of mass murder is wholly unprovoked and not a form of resistance as some here would have us believe.

AQ's campaign of murder and atrocities began LONG before Bush was even installed as President.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #127
133. Wholly unprovoked?
So what motivates them to risk their lives in jihad? Please tell me you haven't bought the shrub's blithering gibberish about how everyone hates us for our freedom and they're just intrinsically evil for no reason and motivated purely by their evil natures. Contrary to the grossly simplistic ravings of our mentally handicapped child of a president, the reality is that people generally don't do things for no reason. You may be quite certain that al Qaeda has reasons for pursuing its chosen course of action. You may not agree with their reasoning, but that's irrelevant; I don't imagine they think your reasoning is all that hot either. Rather than chalking them off as irrational, unthinking, evil beings from another dimension, maybe it would be more productive to ask why it is that they are attacking the US. Maybe some of our policies in their homes are pissing them off, and maybe, just maybe, it's not entirely unreasonable of them to be pissed off about those policies, a great many of which, for a great many years, have indeed been somewhat questionable.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #133
153. Al Qaeda are vicious, theocratic, nihilistic murderers. Their concerns
are relevant only in that they help us understand how to defeat them.

Their lives and their values have no worth.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #153
170. Wow, how nice to have such confidence in your views!
Apparently you're not alone in that state: al Qaeda doesn't think your life and values have any worth either. Go figure, huh?
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #170
172. Except that AQ are in fact murderers, thugs, criminals, and terrorists.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 10:53 AM by geek tragedy
Perhaps you can grasp why I'm more justified in thinking that about AQ than they are about me.

If you can't, you're a Karl Rove liberal.

Anyone who thinks there's doubt that AQ are murderers and terrorists really has no place in the debate over how to deal with terrorism in this country. They certainly don't deserve to call themselves Democrats.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #172
174. Ah yes, how silly of me
We're always 100% right and everyone else is always 100% wrong because, after all, we're the good guys and they're all evil. And anyone who doesn't share that outrageously simplified view of reality has no right to participate in a public discussion and doesn't deserve to be part of "us" in the "us vs. them" world view. In other words, I'm either with you, or against you. Now where have I heard that before? I seem to recall some recent scandal about some Republican, oh, what was his name, claiming that the difference between Republicans and Democrats was that on 9/11, Republicans resolved to kick ass while Democrats talked about understanding their adversaries. And you compare me to Karl Rove? It sounds to me like you and he see pretty much eye to eye in your black and white view of the world.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #174
175. You're sounding exactly like the kind of people Rove was describing.
He wants to paint liberals as soft and weak in opposition to terrorism.

You can't even bring yourself to describe Osama bin Laden and his ilk your enemy. That is not a credible view on terrorism.

Seeing ambiguity where it does not exist is not a sign of wisdom--it's a sign of weakness.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #175
177. You betcha, and proud of it
I am exactly the kind of liberal Karl Rove was decrying: one who believes it is the wise man who understands his opponent (and thus better knows how to defeat him) than to simply haul off and start indiscriminately bashing everything in sight with a hammer in the hopes that you might accidentally hit your opponent in the process. I consider it highly telling that Rove and his fellow neocons consider it an insult to suggest that one might actually want to know something about an opponent before lashing out blindly. I should have thought that the events we've witnessed in the last few years, such as the increases in global terrorism and the chaotic breeding ground for terrorists that is post-invasion Iraq would have amply illustrated the foolhardiness of blundering about in the dark. Only a child is oblivious and/or indifferent to the fact that there is ambiguity and shades of grey in every situation.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #177
178. I agree it is important to understand bin Laden--in order to utterly
defeat him.

The problem is when people talk as if it's wrong to absolutely oppose bin Laden.

Understanding evil is not the same as viewing it as anything but evil.

Do you consider bin Laden and his terrorist followers to be your enemy? Do you think that it's a respectable position to be sympathetic to bin Laden?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #127
148. Then how do you explain the fact that AQ has never bombed Sweden?
or Bolivia? or Denmark? etc etc etc.

Last time I checked they all had the same decadent Western values that we do, and a lot less security to boot. I guess OBL draws lots, and the US just has very, very bad luck...
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #148
154. They bomb us because we're powerful. The United States
can prevent the establishment of a theocracy--Sweden can't.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #154
161. We aren't doing so hot on preventing the establishment of theocracies--
--check out any of the Supreme Court threads. Theocrats are overrunning Iraq, a place where they peviously haven't had any significant influence for at least 60 years, so we've fucked that up royally as well.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #161
166. Invading Iraq was counterproductive on about twenty levels. Of course,
it's a Shiite theocracy we're helping, which can't please the AQ crowd.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #154
163. Ah, so they're gonna beat us to the punch, are they?
They destroy us before we destroy them? You must really think OBL is stupid.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #163
167. They want to purge the Muslim world of modernity and western influence.
They associate modernity with the West.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
104. That's a blatant misrepresentation of the poster's words.
NT!

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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #104
126. Here are the poster's words:
<snip>We had a chance before 9/11 to behave in a civilized manner..we as a country have been liars and thieves, from funding the Taleban in the 80s to sending our oil companies to rape and pillage all over the world..we are reaping what we have sown..and so is Blair..we reap what we sow..we have killed over 100,000 Iraqi people just to steal their oil..and we think terrorists will stop?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #126
144. Yes, those are the poster's words.
Nowhere does the poster say that we deserve to be killed.

Instead, the poster correctly points out that the 'we' that is our country have provoked more terrorism by invading a country that didn't pose a threat to us, and that it is not unexpected that terrorists will attack in the countries that invaded.

Nothing about a "party" in that. But then, you probably have realized that by now.

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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #144
157. "We reap what we sow" means "we get what we deserve." eom
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #157
162. That's an unusual interpretation.
From where I sit, it says "if you cause others harm, you'll get harmed". There's no value judgement in the statement; it merely speaks of a logical outcome.

I think you're assigning meaning to it that, quite frankly, I don't see.

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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #162
168. exactly...why do folks repeatedly misreprestent that POV?
I know they do it on purpose, but it's sooo intellectually dishonest.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #168
179. Desperation to make an invalid, incorrect point, I'd say.
NT!

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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #162
180. I guess we just have seen it used in different ways.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 06:39 PM by geek tragedy
"You reap what you sow" is very similar to "what goes around comes around" and the general sense of karma.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
105. We funded the Taleban when they were fighting Russian invasion
and we gave arms to Saddam Hussein in the 70s..the US and the UK are reaping what they have sown..sadly...I expected this would happen, and will continue to happen as long as we occupy Iraq and Afghanistan and continue our foreign policy of being bullies.
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6th Borough Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. It was not the "Taliban" we were funding in the 70's through the '80s.
Call them mujahadeen or what you like, but the "Taliban" as a name and/or governmental body did not exist at that time.

Just clarifying.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. We gave them arms, ammo, and money
just like we did Saddam..and now we are reaping the whirlwind and the US public wonders why..we could have caught Bin Laden a long time ago..instead we attacked a middle eastern country for their oil..we have killed 100,000s of Iraqis for no reason, and allowed our own sons and daughters to die for no reason..at this point, Im surprised an attack on the UK or the US hasnt been sooner..we are the most hated country in the world.
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6th Borough Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #108
165. I in no way disagree.
I was simply correcting an error in semantics.

I'm a history nerd...it simply is in my nature. :)

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a leftover US made Stinger SA missle brought down that Chinook recently...though the Chinook doesn't have the greatest track record in remaining airborne of its own free will, period.
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Apple Smoothie Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
120. I think he means Al Queda...
We did finance them in the 80's.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #55
147. Perhaps the Taliban didn't exist ..
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 09:49 PM by Maat
but we were sure funding Bin Ladin. We were arming him.

We let him and the Mujadeen struggle with the Soviets for many years.

Then Bin Ladin felt that we abandoned them; many Mujadeen died.

http://www.geocities.com/pageiv71/chawilwar.html



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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #37
52. On the flip side
Anyone who believes that the war in Iraq has not resulted in an increase in the number of terrorists and attacks on the US and it's allies is also talking out of their ass.

It's a moot point in any case. War is a serious business and should never be entered into on a whim. Whether or not terrorist incidents would increase should not impact upon that decision.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. There's a lot more terrorism--in Iraq. The true aftershock won't be
felt until all of the terrorists getting their training there leave Iraq and spread across the globe.
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Apple Smoothie Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
119. No....
but some think that the U.S., British, and Israeli foreign policy is just a tad bit :hide: overaggressive. :eyes:

http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/victims.ht ...

You wonder why ppl hate us?

"Terrorism is the war of the poor and war is the terrorism of the rich." - Sir Peter Ustinov

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #119
123. Did you ever stop to think thay they" hate us because " we" exploit "them"
such as the Oil Companies' massive "exploitation" of the Arab Proletariat and the House of Saud's complicity in that exploitation - along with the US's complicity with the House of Saud and the oil companies in that exploitation.

I was in "Coast Guard Port Security" in the Oil Coast of Mississippi-Louisiana-Texas and the Cancer River (Mississippi River) and the Cancer Ship Channel (Houston Ship Channel - Buffalo Bayou)- and I won't go anywhere near that area --- that's where the "Next One" will be in the US.
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Apple Smoothie Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #123
138. I completely agree
Forgot that part.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. That site is just a wee bit delusional.
For example, who do they blame for the deaths from the USSR crushing dissent in Hungary?

Why, the CIA of course.

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Apple Smoothie Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #125
139. Granted some of it a bit crazy...
but that fact remains that we have had our hand up the ass of way too many countries.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #139
156. Yep. But one doesn't see Vietnamese or Nicaraguans launching
terrorism operatins against the US, does one?

Blame lies first and foremost with the terrorists who do the killing. That is an unescapable truth.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
64. Because sometimes...
...the simplest logic is the hardest to understand.

Yes, there were terrorists aplenty before we invaded Iraq. But the West's actions, and the motives behind those actions, have exacerbated terrorism beyond all telling. Mari is right -- you kill one and 1,000 more pop up to take his or her place. And you know not where they may be.

A Bill Maher remark always flashes through my mind when bad shit like this happens -- and I apologize to those who can't stand Maher. But I think he hit it square on the head when he said, in reference to the Arab world: "They hate us because we don't understand why they hate us." And the West, sorry to say, never will understand it, and many innocents, both in the West and in the Mideast, will pay with their lives for that sick hubris.

Hence, I believe we will never see the end to this war, nor to the attacks that this war will foment. There is more than enough blame to go around here for both sides to get their fair share.


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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. How's about we start by finding out WHO to blame?
(i.e., rather than just assuming that they are "Islamist terrorists"?)

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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Who else?
Do you remember what happened in Madrid? This certainly looks very similar.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
43. How long have you got? :-)
Yes, I remember Madrid and I agree that it looks similar.

All I am saying is that there are several parties in the world who
would consider such an outrage to be "justified" (by their own lights).

I don't buy the first "cause" that comes along, especially if the only
evidence provided so far is from a new website claiming responsibility
for a new, unheard of group of apparently Islamic terrorists.

This brand-new alleged offshoot of the mythical Al Qaeda bogeyman (that
is blamed for everything short of bad weather) appeared on the scene a
little too conveniently for me ... similar to how there were pictures
and names of all the alleged hijackers within a few hours.

This might well turn out to be the case but, with no offence intended,
I don't believe we should be beating anyone's drum at this stage.
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. Of course, at this point in time we can only speculate.
Also, the statement may not be genuine. According to the article I posted earlier, there are "various grammatical and theological errors in the text".

But I think it is highly likely that some Islamist group was behind this attack. Not necessarily al-Qaeda, but perhaps a group sharing the same ideology.

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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
82. Strange there was not
the upcry on DU when Madrid was hit.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Sure.....
"Only people to blame for this attack: Bush and Blair"

...there is no reason we should actually blame any of the people who set the bombs off which targeted and killed civilians.

Nah, the actual perpetrators are blameless. Let's immediately blame Bush and Blair. Everything is Bush and Blair's fault.

How about we excuse all terrorists attacks against the US and our allies because we don't like Bush and Blair's policies?

There has been a rash of car break-ins in my neighborhood. By your logic, rather than blame the actual criminals and prosecute them once caught, I should instead blame ONLY (your words) the local politicians who have allowed criminals to flourish by not putting enough cops in my neighborhood.

You just can't blame Bush and Blair for everything. Terrorism existed before Bush and Blair. The US suffered many terrorist attacks during the Clinton years. Eventually the Muslim world will largely wipe out their own radicals, but that will take decades. There are real terrorists in the world, and they will continue attacking the West for a whole host of reasons. It isn't all Bush and Blair's fault.

Imajika
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. good -- then i hope you have signed up
to fight the war in iraq.

or stopped cleaning your bathroom in the vague hope of evolving self cleaning microbes.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. Such a silly response...
First, I was in Kuwait/Iraq during Desert Storm and might very well be called back. Should that happen, I would reluctantly go

Second, I don't support nation building in Iraq. My gut tells me it is a fools errand, but that doesn't mean I excuse terrorists for slaughtering civilians in London, Iraq, Afghanistan or anywhere else. I blame those directly responsible for setting off the bombs. Every time terrorists strike I do not immediately start whining about Bush and Blair. Many on the right did that while Clinton was in office - that is, they blamed Clinton for the terrorists attacks in Saudi Arabia, Africa and off the coast of Yemen. The wingnuts whom blamed Clinton for all the worlds ill's sounded like fools then, and the argument is no less goofy now when the left tries to claim terrorist attacks are Bush's fault.

Third, every American citizen has a right to sound off about the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anything else our government does. The argument that if you support a conflict you must sign up and fight is garbage.

Imajika
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. if you can spout silliness -- then anyone else can.
cause and effect exists in the real world.

bush/blair have caused extreme reactions in the fundy muslim world.

bush/blair use those extremists for their own ends -- you defend them.

i have no particular feeling about people who join armies -- rarely is the conflict that pops up anything but protecting the material property of somebody who has more money than you.{not ''you'' personally}

so if you see something special there -- that's up to you.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. So do you blame Clinton...
...for all the terrorist attacks on his watch?

Did he also cause extreme reactions in the "fundy muslim world". You know, what with Clinton saving Bosnian Muslims from slaughter, then saving thousands more Muslims from annhilation in Kosovo. Yet somehow, al-Queda was still launching attacks against the US, and busy conspiring to slam civilian airliners into American buildings.

9-11 was in the planning stages for years before Bush was ever sworn into office. Why was that? If it is all Bush/Blair's fault, why was al-Queda preparing to wipe out thousands of civilians long before Bush was awarded the presidency by the US Supreme Court?

Too many on DU act like there are no terrorists. That it is all a pretend, made up threat. That every act of terror Islamic radicals perpetrate is all our own fault. Go somewhere that Islamic fundamentalists have taken over - it is a dark, brutal world they envision. I have been to places where Muslim radicals have gained power, and every right and freedom you cherish (especially if your a woman) is non existent. These are bad people, they do regard Western liberal lifestyles as a threat, and they will continue to attack us regardless of who is President of the United States.

Bush is basically wrong on nearly everything, but that doesn't mean I excuse terrorists for murdering civilians. Not only is it a stupid thing to do, it makes the left look like loons. The Muslim world needs to deal with these fanatics in their own way. The West can really only be an example. When we are directly attacked, we should strike massively against whatever group or state is responsible for the attack - but we should not then set up shop in these Muslim nations and tell them how to deal with these problems.

Imajika
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Liberal Dose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
109. Clinton is partially to blame along with every president back to the one
who decided that putting U.S. troops on Muslim holy land was a good idea. They want us out of their holy land, and they want us to stop financing the Israeli army. That's how this shit started, and it will never stop. So I suppose we can expect more of the same until the end of time.

Peter Arnett's interview with bin Laden in March of 1997:
http://www.anusha.com/osamaint.htm

Transcript of Osama Bin Ladin interview by Peter Arnett
The first-ever television interview with Osama Bin Ladin was conducted by Peter Arnett in eastern Afghanistan in late March 1997. Questions were submitted in advance. Bin Ladin responded to almost all of the questions. CNN was not allowed to ask follow up questions. The interview lasted just over an hour.
ARNETT: Mr. Bin Ladin, could you give us your main criticism of the Saudi royal Family that is ruling Saudi Arabia today?

Osama bin Ladin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


MR. BIN LADIN: Regarding the criticisms of the ruling regime in Saudi Arabia and the Arabian peninsula, the first one is their subordination to the US. So, our main problem is the US government while the Saudi regime is but a branch or an agent of the US. By being loyal to the US regime, the Saudi regime has committed an act against Islam. And this, based on the ruling of Shari'a (Islamic jurisprudence), casts the regime outside the religious community. Subsequently, the regime has stopped ruling people according to what God revealed, praise and glory be to Him, not to mention many other contradictory acts. When this main foundation was violated, other corrupt acts followed in every aspect of the country, the economic, the social, government services and so on.

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, if the Islamic movement takes over Arabia, what kind of society will be created and will Saudi Arabia, for example, return to the laws of the Qur'an at the time of the Prophet?

BIN LADIN: We are confident, with the permission of God, Praise and Glory be to Him, that Muslims will be victorious in the Arabian peninsula and that God's religion, praise and glory be to Him, will prevail in this peninsula. It is a great pride and a big hope that the revelation unto Muhammad, Peace be upon him, will be resorted to for ruling. When we used to follow Muhammad's revelation, Peace be upon him, we were in great happiness and in great dignity, to God belong credit and praise.

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, if the Islamic movement takes over Saudi Arabia, what would your attitude to the West be and will the price of oil be higher?

BIN LADIN: We are a nation and have a long history, with the grace of God, Praise and Glory be to Him. We are now in the 15th century of this great religion, the complete and comprehensive methodology, has clarified the dealing between an individual and another, the duties of the believer towards God, Praise and Glory be to Him, and the relationship between the Muslim country and other countries in time of peace and in time of war. If we look back at our history, we will find there were many types of dealings between the Muslim nation and the other nations in time of peace and in time of war, including treaties and matters to do with commerce. So it is not a new thing that we need to come up with. Rather, it already, by the grace of God, exists. As for oil, it is a commodity that will be subject to the price of the market according to supply and demand. We believe that the current prices are not realistic due to the Saudi regime playing the role of a US agent and the pressures exercised by the US on the Saudi regime to increase production and flooding the market that caused a sharp decrease in oil prices.

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, you've declared a jihad against the United States. Can you tell us why? And is the jihad directed against the US government or the United States' troops in Arabia? What about US civilians in Arabia or the people of the United States?

BIN LADIN: We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation of the Prophet's Night Travel Land (Palestine). And we believe the US is directly responsible for those who were killed in Palestine, Lebanon and Iraq. The mention of the US reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took place in Qana (in Lebanon). This US government abandoned even humanitarian feelings by these hideous crimes. It transgressed all bounds and behaved in a way not witnessed before by any power or any imperialist power in the world. They should have been considerate that the qibla (Mecca) of the Muslims upheaves the emotion of the entire Muslim World. Due to its subordination to the Jews the arrogance and haughtiness of the US regime has reached, to the extent that they occupied the qibla of the Muslims (Arabia) who are more than a billion in the world today. For this and other acts of aggression and injustice, we have declared jihad against the US, because in our religion it is our duty to make jihad so that God's word is the one exalted to the heights and so that we drive the Americans away from all Muslim countries. As for what you asked whether jihad is directed against US soldiers, the civilians in the land of the Two Holy Places (Saudi Arabia, Mecca and Medina) or against the civilians in America, we have focused our declaration on striking at the soldiers in the country of The Two Holy Places. The country of the Two Holy Places has in our religion a peculiarity of its own over the other Muslim countries. In our religion, it is not permissible for any non-Muslim to stay in our country. Therefore, even though American civilians are not targeted in our plan, they must leave. We do not guarantee their safety, because we are in a society of more than a billion Muslims. A reaction might take place as a result of US government's hitting Muslim civilians and executing more than 600 thousand Muslim children in Iraq by preventing food and medicine from reaching them. So, the US is responsible for any reaction, because it extended its war against troops to civilians. This is what we say. As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places and its support of its agent regimes who filled our prisons with our best children and scholars. We ask that may God release them.

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, will the end of the United States' presence in Saudi Arabia, their withdrawal, will that end your call for jihad against the United States and against the US ?

BIN LADIN: The cause of the reaction must be sought and the act that has triggered this reaction must be eliminated. The reaction came as a result of the US aggressive policy towards the entire Muslim world and not just towards the Arabian peninsula. So if the cause that has called for this act comes to an end, this act, in turn, will come to an end. So, the driving-away jihad against the US does not stop with its withdrawal from the Arabian peninsula, but rather it must desist from aggressive intervention against Muslims in the whole world.

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, tell us about your experience during the Afghan war and what did you do during that jihad?

BIN LADIN: Praise be to God, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds, that He made it possible for us to aid the Mujahidin in Afghanistan without any declaration for jihad. It was rather the news that was broadcast by radio stations that the Soviet Union invaded a Muslim country. This was a sufficient motivation for me to start to aid our brothers in Afghanistan. I have benefited so greatly from the jihad in Afghanistan that it would have been impossible for me to gain such a benefit from any other chance and this cannot be measured by tens of years but rather more than that, Praise and Gratitude be to God. In spite of the Soviet power, we used to move with confidence and God conferred favors on us so that we transported heavy equipment from the country of the Two Holy Places (Arabia) estimated at hundreds of tons altogether that included bulldozers, loaders, dump trucks and equipment for digging trenches. When we saw the brutality of the Russians bombing Mujahidins' positions, by the grace of God, we dug a good number of huge tunnels and built in them some storage places and in some others we built a hospital. We also dug some roads, by the grace of God, Praise and glory be to Him, one of which you came by to us tonight. So our experience in this jihad was great, by the grace of God, praise and glory be to Him, and the most of what we benefited from was that the myth of the super power was destroyed not only in my mind but also in the minds of all Muslims. Slumber and fatigue vanished and so was the terror which the US would use in its media by attributing itself super power status or which the Soviet Union used by attributing itself as a super power. Today, the entire Muslim world, by the grace of God, has imbibed the faithful spirit of strength and started to interact in a good manner in order to bring an end to occupation and the Western and American influence on our countries.

REPORTER: Mr. Bin Ladin, what was the significance of the Afgan war for the Islamic movement? Veterans of that war are fighting for Islamic movements and conflicts from the former Soviet republics such as Chechnya to Bosnia to Algeria. Can you explain that phenomemon to us?

BIN LADIN: As I mentioned in my answer to the previous question, the effect of jihad has been great not only at the level of the Islamic movement but rather at the level of the Muslim nation in the whole world. The spirit of power, dignity and confidence has grown in our sons and brothers for this religion and the power of God, Praise and Glory be to Him. And it has become apparent even to the Islamic movement that there is no choice but return to the original spring, to this religion, to God's Book, Praise and Glory be to Him, and to the sunna of His Prophet, Peace be upon him, as understood by our predecessors, may God be pleased with them. Of this, the acme of this religion is jihad. The nation has had a strong conviction that there is no way to obtain faithful strength but by returning to this jihad. The influence of the Afghan jihad on the Islamic world was so great and it necessitates that people should rise above many of their differences and unite their efforts against their enemy. Today, the nation is interacting well by uniting its efforts through jihad against the US which has in collaboration with the Israeli government led the ferocious campaign against the Islamic World in occupying the holy sites of the Muslims. As for the young men who participated in jihad here, their number, by the grace of God, was quite big, Praise and Gratitude be to Him, and they spread in every place in which non-believers' injustice is perpetuated against Muslims. Their going to Bosnia, Chechnya, Tajikistan and other countries is but a fulfillment of a duty, because we believe that these states are part of the Islamic World. Therefore, any act of aggression against any of this land of a span of hand measure makes it a duty for Muslims to send a sufficient number of their sons to fight off that aggression.

REPORTER: Can you tell us now about your expulsion from Saudi Arabia and your time you spent in Sudan and your arrival here in Afganistan?

BIN LADIN: I was, by the grace of God, Praise and Glory be to Him, in the great spot that is dear to God, Praise and Glory be to Him, al-hijaz, especially Venerable Mecca, where is God's Ancient House. However, the Saudi regime imposed on the people a life that does not appeal to the free believer. They wanted the people to eat and drink and celebrate the praise of God, but if the people wanted to encourage what is right and forbid what is wrong, they can't. Rather, the regime dismisses them from their jobs and in the event they continued to do so, they are detained in prisons. I have rejected to live this submissive life, by God's favor, Praise and Gratitude be to Him, that is not befitting of man let alone a believer. So, I waited for the chance until, God, Praise and Glory be to Him, has made it possible for me to leave the country of the Two Holy Places. I hope God, Praise and Glory be to Him, would confer upon me His favor to return one day when God's law rules in that country. I went to the Sudan and stayed there for aboutfive years during which I visited Afghanistan and Pakistan to work against the Communist government in Kabul. When the Saudi government transgressed in oppressing all voices of the scholars and the voices of those who call for Islam, I found myself forced, especially after the government prevented Sheik Salman al-Awdah and Sheik Safar al-Hawali and some other scholars, to carry out a small part of my duty of enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong. So, I collaborated with some brothers and established a committee for offering advice and we started to publish some declarations. (The Advice and Reformation Committee). However, the Saudi regime did not like this and started to exercise pressure on the Sudanese regime. The US government, the Egyptian government and the Yemeni government also helped in doing so. They requested me explicitly from the Sudanese regime and the pressure continued. Saudi Arabia dropped all of its conditions put to the Sudanese regime in return that I be driven out of the Sudan. The US government had already taken the same stance and pulled out its diplomatic mission from Khartoum and put forth their condition to return only after I have left. Unfortunately, the Sudanese government was in some difficult circumstances and there was a tendency inside the government that was inclined to reconciliation or surrender. Then, when they insisted initially that I should keep my mouth shut, I decided to look for a land in which I can breathe a pure, free air to perform my duty in enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong. I ask God, Praise and Glory be to Him, for increase in prosperity for this great land, the Land of Khurasan (Afghanistan) in order to carry on this duty. So, we implore God, Praise and Glory be to Him, that He accept (our deeds) from us and the Muslims.

Now, the United States government says that you are still funding military training camps here in Afganistan for militant, Islamic fighters and that you are a sponser of international terrorism; but others describe you as the new hero of the Arab-Islamic world. Are these accusations true? How do you describe yourself?

BIN LADIN: After the collapse of the Soviet Union in which the US has no mentionable role, but rather the credit goes to God, Praise and Glory be to Him, and the Mujahidin in Afghanistan, this collapse made the US more haughty and arrogant and it has started to look at itself as a Master of this world and established what it calls the new world order. It wanted to delude people that it can do whatever it wants, but it can't do this. It leveled against me and others as many accusations as it desired and wished. It is these (accusations) that you mentioned. The US today as a result of the arrogant atmosphere has set a double standard, calling whoever goes against its injustice a terrorist. It wants to occupy our countries, steal our resources, impose on us agents to rule us based not on what God has revealed and wants us to agree on all these. If we refuse to do so, it will say you are terrorists. With a simple look at the US behaviors, we find that it judges the behavior of the poor Palestinian children whose country was occupied: if they throw stones against the Israeli occupation, it says they are terrorists whereas when the Israeli pilots bombed the United Nations building in Qana, Lebanon while was full of children and women, the US stopped any plan to condemn Israel. At the time that they condemn any Muslim who calls for his right, they receive the highest top official of the Irish Republican Army (Gerry Adams) at the White House as a political leader , while woe, all woe is the Muslims if they cry out for their rights. Wherever we look, we find the US as the leader of terrorism and crime in the world. The US does not consider it a terrorist act to throw atomic bombs at nations thousands of miles away, when it would not be possible for those bombs to hit military troops only. These bombs were rather thrown at entire nations, including women, children and elderly people and up to this day the traces of those bombs remain in Japan. The US does not consider it terrorism when hundreds of thousands of our sons and brothers in Iraq died for lack of food or medicine. So, there is no base for what the US says and this saying does not affect us, because we, by the grace of God, are dependent on Him, Praise and Glory be to Him, getting help from Him against the US. As for the last part of your question, we are fulfilling a duty which God, Praise and Glory be to Him, decreed for us. We look upon those heroes, those men who undertook to kill the American occupiers in Riyadh and Khobar (Dhahran). We describe those as heroes and describe them as men. They have pulled down the disgrace and submissiveness off the forehead of their nation. We ask Allah, Praise and Glory be to Him, to accept them as martyrs.

REPORTER: Let's go to the bombings of United States troops in Riyadh and Dhahran. Why did they happen and were you and your supporters involved in these attacks?

BIN LADIN: We ask about the main reason that called for this explosion. This explosion was a reaction to a US provocation of the Muslim peoples, in which the US transgressed in its aggression until it reached the qibla of the Muslims in the whole world. So, the purpose of of the two explosions is to get the American occupation out (of Arabia). So if the U.S. does not want to kill its sons who are in the army, then it has to get out.

Q: On the same issue of the American troops in Saudi Arabia, do you think will be more bombing attacks on them? or attacks on U.S. civilians in Arabia? or assassination attempts for example, on the Saudi royal families?

BIN LADIN: As for the previous question, the explosion of Riyadh and the one in Al-Khobar (Dhahran). It is no secret that during the two explosions, I was not in Saudi Arabia, but I have great respect for the people who did this action. I say, as I said before, they are heroes. We look upon them as men who wanted to raise the flag of "There is no God but Allah", and to put an end the non believers and the state of injustice that the U.S. brought. I also say that what they did is a great job and a big honor that I missed participating in.

Q) Do you think there will be more bombing attacks on American troops in Saudi Arabia? or attacks on American civilians in Saudi Arabia? or will there be assassination attempts on the Saudi Arabian ruling family?

BIN LADIN: It is known that every action has its reaction. If the American presence continues, and that is an action, then it is natural for reactions to continue against this presence. In other words, explosions and killings of the American soldiers would continue. These are the troops who left their country and their families and came here with all arrogance to steal our oil and disgrace us, and attack our religion. As for what was mentioned about the ruling (Saudi) family those in charge, do bear the full responsibility of everything that may happen. They are the shadow of the American presence. The people and the young men are concentrating their efforts on the sponsor and not on the sponsored. The concentration at this point of Jihad is against the American occupiers.

Q) What are your views about Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman and have you ever met him? Do you know him?

BIN LADIN: Sheik Omar Abdul Rahman is a Muslim scholar well-known all over the Muslim world. He represents the kind of injustice that is adopted by the U.S. A baseless case was fabricated against him even though he is a blind old man. We ask Allah, The Almighty, to relieve him. The U.S. sentenced him to hundreds of years just to please its caprice and the whims of the Egyptian regime. He is now very badly treated and in no way fit for an old man like him or any Muslim scholar.

Q) The U.S. State Department quoting a Pakistani official says that Ramzi Yousef, a convicted bomber in the World Trade Center in New York City stayed in the house you funded in Peshawar, Pakistan for those receiving training during the Afghan conflict after the Trade Center bombing, is that true? Did Ramzi Yousef stay in your house in Peshawar?

BIN LADIN: I do not know Ramzi Yousef. What the American government and Pakistani intelligence has been reporting is not true at all. But I say if the American government is serious about avoiding the explosions inside the U.S., then let it stop provoking the feelings of 1,250 million Muslims. Those hundreds of thousands who have been killed or displaced in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, do have brothers and relatives. They would make of Ramzi Yousef a symbol and a teacher. The U.S. will drive them to transfer the battle into the United States. Everything is made possible to protect the blood of the American citizen while the bloodshed of Muslims is allowed in every place. With this kind of behavior, the U.S. government is hurting itself, hurting Muslims and hurting the American people.

Q) Mr. Bin Ladin, were you involved in financing the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City?

BIN LADIN: I have no connection or relation with this explosion.

Q) Mr. Bin Ladin, in a recent interview with an Arabic newspaper, you said that Arabs who fought in the Afghan war killed U.S. troops in Mogadishu, Somalia. Can you tell us about that?

BIN LADIN: The U.S. government went there with great pride and stayed there for some time with a strong media presence wanting to frighten people that it is the greatest power on earth. It went there with pride and with over 28,000 soldiers, to a poor unarmed people in Somalia. The goal of this was to scare the Muslim world and the whole world saying that it is able to do whatever it desires. As soon as the troops reached the Mogadishu beaches, they found no one but children. The CNN and other media cameras started photographing them (the soldiers) with their camouflage and heavy arms, entering with a parade crawling (on the ground) and showing themselves to the world as the "greatest power on earth". Resistance started against the American invasion, because Muslims do not believe the U.S. allegations that they came to save the Somalis.A man with human feelings in his heart does not distinguish between a child killed in Palestine or in Lebanon, in Iraq or in Bosnia. So how can we believe your claims that you came to save our children in Somalia while you kill our children in all of those places?

With Allah's grace, Muslims over there, cooperated with some Arab "Mujahideen" who were in Afghanistan. They participated with their brothers in Somalia against the American occupation troops and killed large numbers of them. The American administration was aware of that. After a little resistance, The American troops left after achieving nothing. They left after claiming that they were the largest power on earth. They left after some resistance from powerless, poor, unarmed people whose only weapon is the belief in Allah The Almighty, and who do not fear the fabricated American media lies. We learned from those who fought there, that they were surprised to see the low spiritual morale of the American fighters in comparison with the experience they had with the Russian fighters. The Americans ran away from those fighters who fought and killed them, while the latter were still there. If the U.S. still thinks and brags that it still has this kind of power even after all these successive defeats in Vietnam, Beirut, Aden, and Somalia, then let them go back to those who are awaiting its return.

Q) Mr. Bin Lladin, your family is a rich powerful family in Saudi Arabia. Have they, or the Saudi Arabian government asked you to stop your activities?

BIN LADIN: They have done that a lot. They have pressured us a lot, especially since a lot of our money is still in the hands of the Saudi ruling family due to activities of the our family and company (Saudi construction giant, the BinLadin Group). They sent me my mother, my uncle, and my brothers in almost nine visits to Khartoum (Sudan) asking me to stop and return to Arabia to apologize to King Fahd. I apologized to my family kindly because I know that they were driven by force to come to talk to me. This regime wants to create a problem between me and my family and in order to take some measures against them. But, with Allah's grace, this regime did not get its wish fulfilled. I refused to go back. They (my family) conveyed the Saudi government's message that if I did not go back, they'll freeze all my assets, deprive me of my citizenship, my passport, and my Saudi I.D. and distort my picture in the Saudi and foreign media. They think that a Muslim may bargain on his religion. I said to them do whatever you may wish. It is with Allah's bounty, we refused to go back. We are living in dignity and honor for whom we thank Allah. It is much better for us to live under a tree here on these mountains than to live in palaces in the most sacred land to Allah, while being subjected to disgrace not worshipping Allah even in the most sacred land on earth, where injustice is so widespread. There is no strength except with Allah.

Q) Mr. Bin Ladin, have Saudi agents attempted to assassinate you? Are you targeted by the U.S. government? Are you in fact in fear of your life?

BIN LADIN: The U.S. pressures are no secret to you. The Saudi pressures are also in response to American pressures. There were several attempts to arrest me or to assassinate me. This has been going on for more than seven years. With Allah's grace, none of these attempts succeeded. This is a proof in itself to Muslims and to the world that the U.S. is incapable and weaker than the picture it wants to draw in people's mind. A believer must rest assured that life is only in the hands of Allah, and sustenance is also in the hands of Allah, the Almighty. As for fearing for one's life, it is difficult to explain to you how we think of ourselves, unless you have full belief. We believe that no one could take out one breath of our written life as ordained by Allah. We see that we see that getting killed in the cause of Allah is a great honor wished for by our Prophet (PBUH). He said in his Hadith: "I swear to Allah, I wish to fight for Allah's cause and be killed, I'll do it again and be killed, and I'll do it again and be killed". Being killed for Allah's cause is a great honor achieved by only those who are the elite of the nation. We love this kind of death for Allah's cause as much as you like to live. We have nothing to fear for. It is something we wish for.

Q) What are your future plans?

BIN LADIN: You'll see them and hear about them in the media, God willing.

Q) Mr. Bin Ladin, if you had an opportunity to give a message to President Clinton, what would that message be?

BIN LADIN: Mentioning the name of Clinton or that of the American government provokes disgust and revulsion. This is because the name of the American government and the name of Clinton and Bush directly reflect in our minds the picture of children with their heads cut off before even reaching one year of age. It reflects the picture of children with their hands cut off, the picture of the children who died in Iraq, the picture of the hands of the Isrealis with weapons destroying our children. The hearts of Muslims are filled with hatred towards the United States of America and the American president The President has a heart that knows no words. A heart that kills hundreds of children definitely, knows no words. Our people in the Arabian Peninsula will sent him messages with no words because he does not know any words. If there is a message that I may send through you, then it is a message I address to the mothers of the American troops who came here with their military uniform walking proudly up and down our land while the scholars of our country are thrown in prisons. I say that this represents an a blatant provocation to 1,250 million Muslims. To these mothers I say if they are concerned for their sons, then let them object to the American government's policy and to the American president. Do not let themselves be cheated by his standing before the bodies of the killed soldiers describing the freedom fighters in Saudi Arabia as terrorists. It is he who is a terrorist who pushed their sons into this for the sake of the Isreali interest. We believe that the American army in Saudi Arabia came to separate between the Muslims and the people for not ruling in accordance with Allah's wish. They came to be in support of the Israeli forces in occupied Palestine, the land of the "Israa" of our Prophet (PBUH).
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
65. Alternative analogy
You see a small brush fire and proceed to douse it with gasoline. Who bears responsibility for the massive forest-fire that erupts? Sure, the asshole who started the small fire bears responsibility, but the idiot who douses it in gasoline doesn't get off scott free either.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #65
72. I'm okay with that analogy...
The party that started the fire is still ultimately at fault. Because the fire fighter, or whomever tried to fight the blaze, was an idiot doesn't take the blame away from the person that started it.

When a criminal murders someone, you don't go looking to blame the justice system, socio-economic policy, etc, first - you go directly after the person(s) whom are actually responsible for the specific crime. After the fact, it is fine to address what can be done to stop such murderers from flourishing to begin with.

Your's is a good analogy, and I basically agree with it.

Imajika

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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #65
84. Great analogy, KevinJ
gb
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
124. Maybe they are pissed off at Big Oil, and the House of Saud
and the US (home of ExxonMobil and TexacoChevron) and the UK (Shell and BP) - because the Arab Proletariat has been ripped off and exploited by the oil companies for sixty years?
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
78. They are the ONLY people to blame? Are you sure about that?
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
85. sorry,but the folks who actually did this get their share of the blame too
they're the ones that chose to "fight" by blowing up commuters. Even the insurgents in Iraq largely focus their efforts on attacking Iraqi police stations and locations where there are police and recruits.

onenote
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
15. Three weeks ago UK cops arrested five Iranians accused of
conspiring to cause terrorist acts abroad.

No news since then of whether they have been charged apart from snippet saying they'd been slung in HMP Belmarsh - London's top terrorist slammer.

BBC Radio News mentioned this conection today as possible link to this new 'Al Qaeda' group that has issued today's statement.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. Police just said they have no claim of responsibility
At least none given to them directly.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
21. Fatalities update: At least 45 dead - London Evening Standard
At least 45 dead
7 July 2005

Four blasts ripped through London during rush hour today, killing at least 45 people in attacks Prime Minister Tony Blair called "barbaric".

Witnesses saw the top ripped off a double-decker bus near Russell Square close to King's Cross train terminal, and three more apparently coordinated explosions caused carnage on packed Tube trains as Londoners made their way to work.

Security sources said there were fatalities at all four bomb sites, awith reports of at least 45 people killed. A further 150 were seriously wounded, and hospital staff said some were unlikely to survive.
http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/19753070?sour...
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
132. I hope they find evidence to link Chimp and drag him away in handcuffs!
you know this was the working of our own rogue regime-
I hope they burn in hell for this-killing people in England to score support for War own Terra?

I hope they screwed up this time and left evidence-they get caught, and link the "Ultra Secret Organization of American Chimp in Europe"!
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
33. the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organisation in Europe
AKA a wholly-owned joint-venture subsidiary of Dick Cheney, Carlyle Group and Unocal.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Let's hear it! Never take the focus off the hardball and forget those
smokescreens they love putting up to make them look big on TV.....
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
70. is that like being on "double secret probation"?
what the hell kind of name is "the Secret Organization Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organization in Europe"?

and, of course, condolences to all the brits

:grouphug: :cry: :grouphug: :cry: :grouphug: :cry: :grouphug: :cry: :grouphug:
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #70
111. that was the description in rove's memo
<excerpt>

"...an organization claiming to be a secret organization or group of al-Qaeda or a Jihadist organization in Europe (make up a suitable name) will claim credit. That way we can defend what we're doing in Iraq AND go after Iran..."

The State Dept. flunky who got the orders missed the parenthetical.
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #111
131. That name is Exactly the same!-where is this from? PNAC?
That's funny- creating a name exactly like the one Rove stated-
Where is this Rove's memo?
When did he say this?
Is this PNAC 1998?
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
35. This is not a reliable claim
Anybody can post on the Internet.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
44. Bush is one lucky fellow
Regardless of who is responsible for these bombings, it will take the heat off of the Rove scandal, and the soon to come 144 Abu Graihb torture photos. It will at least temporarily rally support for the Iraq war too. Bush seems to often be in the peculiar position of benefiting from the deaths of innocent people. A strange sort of karma, if you like.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Luck my ass. nt
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Well I am being ironic.
But I think he will benefit in the ways I enumerated, or at least attempt to. And I am not necessarily claiming that the CIA did this, or anything along this line. Just that a dynamic has been put in motion such that violence begets more violence, and the people who advocate or practice violence on both sides benefit from the spiral.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. Its all a little too convenient
Helps get poodle back in line, takes heat off chimpista scandals... Just a little too convenient.
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alphadog Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. Please remove tinfoil hat
before posting.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #58
164. Are you trying to be funny?
Or perhaps you lack imagination... or maybe you are just naturally rude.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

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whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. That is what I thought too
And I was shot down for stating such.

Bottom line is that Blair and Bush have failed. Al quaida can and will attack whenever they choose, where ever and at what ever target is easiest.

Or, the flip side is that the attack was coordinated in such a way that it would boost the perception that Bush/Blair are doing the right thing because it would prove that the terrorists are real.

Al quaida are not disbanded or disorganized or crippled as much as our leaders have led us to believe. And the Iraq war has done diddly squat to fight the war on terror except perhaps inflame anti-west/anti-American sentiment.

And so the war racket continues unabated......
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Jimdish25 Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
57. Bush a lucky fool...
I agree Bush is generally lucky but he has a lot of help. No matter what happens the highly organized Republican spin machine will go into action telling us to be vigilant, etc and tying the terrorists to Iraq and the Patriot Act and any other action they may wish to take. And of course the MSM will serve it up and the lazy american people will wolf it down for lunch today.

This is certainly a distraction to the G8 and the Olympic celebration and one must wonder if the appearance of Bush and Blair together wasn't part of the equation. In any case I don't think this terrorism and the protracted war in Iraq will digest well together amongst the people of the UK. Nor is this a good time for GW to announce that we're winning either war.

The question to ask is how can a president who's been a failure at just about every level, and lied us into a war continue to serve out his term and when will the administration be brought to account for it's pervasive corruption and it's deadly results?
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Pallas180 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
77. well said Jimdish -

"The question to ask is how can a president who's been a failure at just about every level, and lied us into a war continue to serve out his term and when will the administration be brought to account for it's pervasive corruption and it's deadly results? "
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patalicat Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
87. wheee another alkayeeda related website ?!? uh fuck off
those crazy brownskin terrists just type type typin away

see also mossad nuff said
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Mossad? Why is it mentioned here?!
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #89
159. You know why.
DU attracts all kind of false progressives.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #87
158. Yep.
We know what kind of person instantly blames the Mossad for every act of terrorism.
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deacon2 Donating Member (396 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
93. Okay - I'll post again
Read the "statement." Fractured syntax, feels amateurish at best. Certainly not proof of involvement by anyone else - these could be grandstanders - but if these folks are jihadi, I'm Marie of Romania. Here's three links from another thread at DU saying that Netanyahu was probably warned prior to the attacks by Scotland Yard. So, before we accept the usual dog and pony again, I believe real "vigilance" is called for:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=85346
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=122098120&p ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/isra ...

And let's leave the tin foil snarkiness out of it this time, shall we? Unfortunately, there's more than one plausible explanation for this. It might be the one you really don't care to hear.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #93
149. I thought that too.
It reads, um, odd. It doesn't ring right.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #93
160. Too bad you're relying on false reports. Netanyahu wasn't warned in
advance.

But it's Israel, which is populated by you know who.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #160
182. London Terror Tip-off: Timeline Refutes Israeli Denial
http://www.antiwar.com/blog/index.php?id=P2206

In denying widespread reports that Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu received a warning of the London terrorist attacks "minutes before" they occurred, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom claims that "After the first explosion, our finance minister received a request not to go anywhere."

The problem with this explanation is that it was only after the third explosion that London police realized they were in the midst of a terrorist attack. Up until that point, authorities thought they were dealing with a series of accidents caused by a power surge, as this timeline from the Australian Times-Herald makes clear:



If we take the original leaker at his (or her) word, Netanyahu was told "minutes before" the first explosion. However, even if we believe Minister Shaloms account, it still points to a weird anomaly: It took a full hour for the rest of London to find out that they were under attack, and yet Netanyahu was privy to this well before anyone else including Prime Minister Tony Blair.

What did Netanyahu know, when did he know it, and how did he know it? Andrew Sullivan can stuff his ethno-religious special pleading: if there is any "canard" more "tired" and "hideous" than anti-Semitism it is the attempt to reduce all inquiries about Israel's behavior to bigotry. These questions deserve honest answers. Why is no one asking them?
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
94. Other Islamist websites seem to have doubts about statement's authenticity
British analyst Eedle said, "I think the way to judge Internet messages is by what the Islamists ... online themselves think of them. Genuine communiqus like the ones from Iraq are very rapidly copied to a host of different Islamic Web sites and e-mail lists. This one hasn't (been)."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050707/325/fmvkh.html
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Monkie Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. also its a anonymous posting on a forum n/t
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #94
110. Some details on the discussions among Islamists about the statement:
Jihadist Reactions to the Claim of Responsibility for the London Attacks by the Secret Organization of Qaedat al-Jihad in Europe
By SITE Institute
July 7, 2005

Responding to the claim for responsibility by the Secret Organization of Qaedat al-Jihad in Europe for the attacks in London today, July 7, 2005, members of an al-Qaeda affiliated forum believe that the communiqu was falsified, but trust that al-Qaeda executed the attacks.

The main points of contention amongst the membership are the use of ummat al-arab (the Nation of Islam) in the communiqu which according the jihadists is against the al-Qaeda beliefs, and alleged poor Arabic that does not sound like an al-Qaeda statement."

Further, a discussion at another al-Qaeda affiliated forum mirrors the belief that the statement is false; however, some members assert that the operation was carried out by the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades of al-Qaeda in Europe.

Despite the purported false claim, members still express that they are pleased with what happened today in the home of the Roman.
http://siteinstitute.org/bin/articles.cgi?ID=publicatio...

The SITE institute seems to have some right-wing connections, but in this case I think that the information about the discussions appears to be plausible.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
95. CNN reporting on TV that this *seems* like a fake
The Arabic grammar is very clumsy and sounds like it's not a native speaker that wrote the statement. Also, it's way out of sync from how "genuine" al Qaida statements are written.
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HR_Pufnstuf Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #95
113. Yes, but..
..it STILL didnt stop CNN's own Bill Ssshneider from quoting it in his segment later today, even after his own network debunked it.

Weird world the media spins.

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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
128. what? Something with the name ULTRA "Secret" SUPER SPECIAL....
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 05:40 PM by jsamuel
doesn't sound real?

any group names that sound like that look like fakes at first read
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CrazyForKucinich Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
145. North, south, east, west?
I actually laughed when I came to that bit because it sounds like Rummy wrote it.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
151. Hmmmm .....
Israel quite obviously deals with a large number of hardline Islamic fundamentalist terrorist attacks on a weekly (or, at best, monthly) basis:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/v...

The webpage linked above lists over 350 separate fatal incidents resulting in well over 1000 Israeli fatalities since September, 2000.

But I haven't yet located a single incident out of these 350+ in which more than 30 Israelis died. Nor have I found a single example of a well-coordinated, multiple-attack terrorist strike (defined as three or more separate fatal acts of terrorism executed within a span of three hours). Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I could direct me to these entries?

Now, it seems to me that the more sophisticated and spectacular an act of terrorism is -- the more, shall we say, made-for-TV -- the greater chance that this dramatically successful act of terrorism was state sponsored to achieve some political end. This is purely a function of the far greater MEANS and OPPORTUNITY of state sponsored mil/intel organizations when compared with those of the typical Jihadist terrorists they are tasked with foiling. Surely, we would all agree that this exact pattern (of highly dramatic and potent terrorist acts correlating with covert state sponsored activities) is quite typical in the historical records of many perhaps less "politically enlightened" regions -- such as Indonesia, South Africa and Latin America, for example.

Unlike Israel (which deals with far more numerous but typically far less potent Jihadist attacks), the USA & Great Britain appear to deal almost exclusively with spectacularly successful, well-coordinated, highly sophisticated MADE-FOR-TV Goldfinger/Dr. No-type terrorists.

The Jihadist terrorists attacking Israel don't typically choose highly symbolic strike dates (like 9/11 or 7.7 -- with years of inactivity between) to launch singular and discrete but highly memorable, extremely fatal and very well-coordinated multi-strikes. In contrast, real terrorist organizations almost invariably attempt to highlight the desperate straits of their causes by aggressively claiming full responsibility for their violent acts using previously known and recognized channels and spokesmen. Furthermore, these real Jihadist terrorist organizations do not put a premium on huge and horrifically fatal MADE-FOR-TV terror muscle-flexing but instead foster a continual atmosphere of perilousness by striking whenever, wherever and however they can.

Maybe I'm far too cynical, but I've started to suspect that the term "al Qaeda" has now come to simply signify any anonymous act of terror that might otherwise appear sophisticated enough to implicate state-sponsored mil/intel. I realize that this is a generalization at best, but please understand the context in which I'm daring to utter such blasphemous thoughtcrime. Our entire corporate media apparatus and political hierarchy have already convicted Islamic fundamentalists of today's crimes with nary a shred of backing evidence. In contrast, I'm not trying to convince anyone to jump to any hasty conclusions -- just to duly consider all logically probable alternatives.
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allemand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
173. London blasts may have Pak link
LONDON: The terrorists, who carried out Thursday's serial bomb blasts in London, may have been from a gang of young and well-educated British Asians, who went to Islamic schools in Pakistan, after graduating from Britain.

But, not enough evidence had been collected to arrest them, though in order to establish their links with al Qaeda, intelligence agencies have in the past, monitored phone calls between them and al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, The Sun reported.

Said to be in their 20s, these Muslim extremists are graduates who completed their college education in the UK and then went to Islamic schools in Pakistan near the Afghan border, the paper quoted a US security source as saying. (...)

Security men feel that the terrorists were 18-20 in number. Professor Michael Clarke of King's College London was quoted as saying that planting a string of bombs "would require a cell of at least 18 to 20 people".

More:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1165570....
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
181. WTF
is this --- Organization Group Base of --- Organization --- nonsense?

Please, if you're going to be an elite terrorist squad, pick out a name that makes a little more sense. On second thought, I guess Rova has been a little stressed this week.
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