Christian Groups Plan More Monuments - Washington Post

[stevedeshazer]

Many Expect Confusion and Litigation on Ten Commandments to Continue

Within hours of yesterday's Supreme Court decision allowing a Ten Commandments monument on the grounds of the Texas Capitol, Christian groups announced a nationwide campaign to install similar displays in 100 cities and towns within a year.

"We see this as an historic opening, and we're going to pursue it aggressively," said the Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney, director of the Washington-based Christian Defense Coalition, which organized vigils outside the Florida hospice where Terri Schiavo died this year.

Although disappointed that the court ruled in a related case that two Kentucky counties could not hang framed versions of the Ten Commandments in their courthouses, Mahoney said the Texas decision was sufficient to "open up a whole new frontier" for preserving the United States' "Christian heritage."

Groups on both sides of the issue predicted that the pair of Supreme Court rulings, rather than clarifying a gray area of the law, would spawn more disputes over Ten Commandment displays in parks, town halls and courthouses. They said the displays are now the front line of a proxy war, standing in for the bigger issue of the place of religion in public life.

more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/27/AR2005062701583.html

[AlCzervik]

1. you know if you can't see then in front of a court house or other

public space they don't exist.:sarcasm:

[kath]

53. That one about "bearing false witness" doesn't seem to exist for Repugs

AT ALL.

[rpannier]

2. It was pointed out by several legal scholars

and those close to the justices that the decision means, "If the display is meant to have historic significance then they can post it." aka: To show an historic connectic to present day laws. But, if it's just to promote religion it's out.

[Endangered Specie]

5. So in other words, most of the proposed ones would be

illegal under the court ruling...

"a historic connection to present day laws", in other words, museums :shrug:

[jobycom]

20. Not necessarily

The display would have to have some religious context to be banned. Just because a religious group puts it up doesn't make it religious, at least not in terms of the law. If they are careful to keep the monuments in historical contexts, they can probably get away with it.

Another feature of the ruling, it seems to me, besides the historical/religious dichotomy, is the impact on governmental functions. If they are displayed in a courthouse, they are able to impact the function of the courts. If they are on a plaque on the State Capital grounds, somewhere behind the statue of some governor's wife no one remembers, they don't really affect the function of government.

I'm not saying that's the way they should rule, only that it seems like an aspect of their ruling. How a direct religious symbol on government property avoids violating the First Amendment, I don't understand.

[Endangered Specie]

58. Seems like theyve only created more work for themselves

I hope our side doesnt give up this fight...

In any case, I sincerly doubt a single set of 10 commandments will be displayed with genuine "a historical background" in mind, most really just to rub it in the face of the law that 'semi-allows' it as well as their need to just be in peoples faces in general. But I suppore your right and some of them might throw in a small "here is the historic context" plaque next to it to make it legal.

That and I doubt that your average group is going to make a small, obsure display... they seem to want to attract the cameras and attention.

[Zhade]

87. Plus, there is no real "historical" context for many aspects of faiths.

Scholars aren't even fully in agreement on the existence of a real man named Jesus, for crying out loud.

How does one provide an "historical context" for, say, the Great Flood? It clearly has not been proven to have happened, yet fundie literalists will insist that Noah, for example, is historical.

Well, no. He's not. He's allegorical, or symbolic. It's NEVER been shown that he's anything other than pure myth. Perhaps a real flood suggested the tale, but until there is actual evidence of Noah's Ark and all that, there is no historical context, despite what biblical literalists will wrongly insist.

I think this just opens up a can of worms.

[DanCa]

3. Raising money for statues or the poor?

What would Jesus DO

[Erika]

10. Great post

If they want to do something Christian they could use their funds to feed the poor.

[DanCa]

11. Because it proves the embryo lovers arent pro life or christian

There anti woman and anti disabilities. Seems to me if they cared about the culture of life bull crap that they would rather feed the hungry with that money.

[Sin]

16. I guess there reply would be

"Let them eat carved marble."

[habitual]

35. They should stop worshipping IDOLS

you are right.

[saigon68]

92. Yes it is

[BiggJawn]

47. That was my first thought, too.

The Poor, the Hungry, the Sick, and here these bozos wanna raise money for their religous displays.

"Historical context" my ASS. Just WHAT does "I AM the LORD thy GOD. Thou shalt have NO other GODS before Me." and "Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it HOLY" have to do with our Laws?

Nothing.

[kath]

54. Egg-zackly - out here in OK a fundie church spent $400K to put up a 35

fout tall cross! They also have a huge mortgage on their ginormous church complex. I'll bet they give almost NOTHING to the poor.

[Roland99]

72. Amidst the talk about 10 commandments & Christianity, one thing missing!

Jesus didn't teach the 10 commandments.

Jesus taught the Beatitudes.


These freaking idiot Fund-A-Mentals are fighting over something their own "savior" didn't even teach!


MORANS!

[stevedeshazer]

4. More political BS from the "Christian Defense Coalition"

from October 2004: http://www.townhall.com/news/politics/200410/POL20041004b.shtml

IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

The Christian Defense Coalition says it is seeking "clarification" from the Internal Revenue Service, before coalition members launch a two-week prayer tour in Pennsylvania and Ohio.

"As Christians, we are praying that God grant President Bush four more years because of his support for the sanctity of human life, his strong commitment to the protection of traditional marriage and his stance on religious freedom and liberty in the public square," said the Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition.

"It is clear that the public policies of the president are more in line with historic Christianity then those of Senator Kerry. It is our hope that the IRS will not crush religious freedom by attempting to censor and control how churches feel compelled to pray," Mahoney said in a press release.

The American Center for Law and Justice has written to the IRS on behalf of the Christian Defense Coalition, explaining that Mahoney plans to "offer prayer during the evening services in the churches he visits that God grants President Bush four more years as president and that Sen. Kerry does not become president."

[Lexingtonian]

6. invest in sledgehammers....

Remember the Iconoclasts!

:D

[QuettaKid]

49. Any idea what the penalty would be

for smashing one of those tablet monuments to little bits?

[OKthatsIT]

51. Thou Shalt Not Kill For Oil

Thou Shalt Not Kill For Profit Margins.
Thou Shalt Not Kill The Uninsured.
Thou Shalt Not Kill The Innocent In The Way.
Thou Shalt Not Kill Habitats.
Thou Shalt Not Kill Investigative Reporters.
Thou Shalt Not Kill Whistleblowers.
Thou Shalt Not Kill Humans Because The Rich Feels The Poor Are Overpopulating The Planet.

[KDLarsen]

81. No idea...

.. but I wouldn't be surprised if they manage to spin it to be a "religious hate-crime"....

[Trajan]

7. Thomas Paine

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794-1795. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 494.)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

8. Let's throw in some Buddhas and Ganeshes while we're at it

Who needs green space, anyway? Let's crap it all up with icons and memorials to every effing religion on the planet.

[jobycom]

21. I was thinking of a monument to Madeline O'Hare. It is Austin.

She lived in Austin, and was a significant figure in American history during during the 70s and 80s. Wouldn't a tribute to her on the Texas Capitol lawn be fitting?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

83. Absolutely!

As long as it's historical! :D

[AndyTiedye]

9. The Placing of ONE Religion ABOVE ALL OTHERS In Public Life...

...is precisely what the establishment clause of the First Amendment is meant to prevent.

[jobycom]

24. Good point. nt

[Occulus]

12. appropriately revealing response

Wait until they get all their little monuments built, and then go about finding out exactly how tall each one is. Then, centered behind the monument, and on a post two feet taller, place the Wiccan rede.

Watch fundigelicals implode with self-righteous anger and disbelief. Then laugh as they get smacked by the courts when they sue to stop the post plaque thingy.

Better yet, erect a post and put something on the top, and with each lawsuit add a statement from a different religion.

Let's get creative now that we've been given material. This is an easy, easy way to demonstrate to everyone how incredibly hypocritical these people really are.

[rogue_bandit]

17. Wiccan would be appropriate in Salem

Might be appropriate in other place, at least anywhere that persecuted witches and warlocks.

I'm waiting for the first wiccan 'church' to apply for federal funds.

[OKthatsIT]

52. "Do As Thou Will, But Harm None"

Pagan's Single Commandment

[Lilith Velkor]

69. Not all pagans, just Wiccans

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

:hi:

[lumpy]

79. That is what Christ taught

that and the 'life everlasting'

[DBoon]

13. Suddenly vandalism starts to make sense

not that anyone should ever destroy property, mind you.

[jobycom]

23. You start to wonder though...

I mean, obviously our government is not protecting the rights we are guaranteed. They act as though our rights are something they give, not something we own that they are forbidden to touch. Would it be vandalism to exercise our inalienable rights, which the courts seem hell-bent on alienating anyway?

I remember going out for a jog the night I realized that we couldn't stop Bush from invading Iraq, and realizing for the first time what laws really were. The president was going to break every law on the book with his invasion, and no court or legislative body or law enforcement official was going to stop him. At that moment, I no longer respected any law of our government. I still respected humanitarian law--no killing, no raping, no harming others, basic right and wrong stuff--but the laws of our state no longer seemed valid. It was the most clearly I had ever seen the artificiality of government. If that makes any sense.

I wouldn't vandalize these statues, nor encourage anyone else to do it. If I were going to risk jail time and legal penalties--even from a government increasingly invalidating itself--I would do it in such a way that I changed people's minds and made a difference, such as civil disobedience, rather than just temporarily damaging an offensive object. But I don't really believe it would be morally wrong to destroy this illegal display--just legally stupid, and purposeless.

Just my thoughts. All hypothetical.

[DBoon]

55. Your analysis is much deeper than mine

I was merely considering the effect of a spray painted pentagram on one of these "monuments"

:evilgrin:

[jobycom]

57. Yeah, that'd be way cooler!

I shouldn't write so late, I get wordy! :-)

[Lilith Velkor]

70. The pentagram is the symbol of protection from demons

Perhaps a good lawyer could argue that you were acting in the public interest...

[The Stranger]

68. Paging John Locke . . .

[jobycom]

78. ROFL!! Sorry

People in need of sleep shouldn't philosophize!

[MisterP]

14. stop fondling those two domes, kids!

[Voltaire99]

15. Like all fundamentalists, a terribly insecure lot.

Fearful obsessives, they'll never rest until they've pressed their beliefs on every inch of society.

Where's evolution when you need it?

[jobycom]

22. So you see self-doubt, too?

To me, it's as if they know they don't really believe what they say, so they try hard to force away all expressions of doubt, from themselves, and from every one around them, hoping that they will one day make their own doubts go away.

The only true Christians I respect are people like Jimmy Carter and Al Gore, who are secure enough in their own faith to allow others to have their own faiths.

[enigmatic]

18. Oh God....

Wait, let me re-phrase that:)

[high density]

19. Who cares.

What a waste of time and money.

[Miss Chybil]

25. If they are installed with religioun in mind, they'll have to come down.

That's the way I understand the rulings.

[greymattermom]

26. Hebrew

The monuments should be in the original Hebrew. The 10 commandments aren't a Christian thing after all. Moses....not Jesus....

[Mari333]

33. Plus, there are 3 versions of the 10 c's

The Jewish, the Catholic, and the Protestant..not a lot of rabid reichwingers know that either..

[Hekate]

38. Not to mention they come out different in the original Hebrew

Hi Mari!

:hi:

Hekate

[IndianaGreen]

27. Christians don't post Moses's Ten Commandments, they post their version

of the Mosaic Ten Commandments. The actual Ten Commandments bar the belief in Jesus as G-d in the flesh, and the depiction of G-d in any physical form or gender, including referring to G-d as "Father."

So when the crazy fundie Christians decide to start posting their version of the Ten Commandments around here, I will write to the paper and to the local officials demanding that the original text (in Hebrew) be posted instead of the watered down and misleading Christian version.

[Piperay]

28. The 10 Commandments are guides

to live by, ironic that the 'Christains' that promote them don't abide by them in their own lives. :-(

[Felix Mala]

77. The naked truth about 10 Commandments

If you enacted I - IV as law, not even Scalia or Thomas would uphold them.

V - I guess you could try to make a law that children honor their parents. Can we get an exception for divorce or abuse?

VI - IX - Christians would like us to believe that they were the first to outlaw killing, adultery, lying and stealing, but the truth is, thousands of cultures have laws against these things. How could this be?

X - Thou shall not covet... Yeah, try enacting that in the USA... It'll get less attention than the dog tax. Coveting is what drives our nation, a lot more than cold stone tablets.


Don't forget the XI Commandment:
Everything touched by politics is diminished.

[colonel odis]

29. now that's what we need to turn this country around -- monuments!

great big, stone monuments of the 10 commandments will reduce crime, eliminate poverty, bring the soldiers home from iraq, and cure just about any other evil we have.

why didn't people think of this before? aw, hell. let's make everyone put a monument of the 10 commandments up in their front yard! i'm tired of trying to have a nicer car than my neighbors. i want a nicer chunk of granite to show i'm more christian than they are.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[saigon68]

75. ADIOS

Vaya con Dios

[Sandpiper]

31. Just what Jesus would have wanted

Wasting a lot of money on crappy eye sores rather than using it to help the poor, sick, and hungry.

[jukes]

32. & a kick...

kee YAH!

[Hekate]

36. Build'em on church grounds to their hearts' content...

I don't care what religous groups want to represent on their own property. Shrines to the Blessed Virgin Mary, statues of Kali with her necklace of skulls and tongue sticking out, a big Menorah, Buddha, Jesus -- but somehow I don't think this pluralism is what the culture warriors have in mind.

I also don't see any problem with public buildings having displays that indicate the broad range of sources that led to our modern laws: Hammurabi, who invented bureaucracy along with a code of contract laws, the Old Pagans of Europe who gave so much of the basis of their laws to us, the Hebrews who handed down over 600 immutable laws (so why are we fixated on only 10?), and of course Jesus, whose gave us the Beatitudes.

The Beatitudes, btw, are as universally ignored as Hammurabi's laws by the folks who want to install graven images of the Ten Commandments in every public school and court of law. Strange. Very strange. What religion IS it the wingnuts are trying to establish, if they so egregiously ignore the heart of Jesus' teaching? Not Judaism, if they ignore the 600+ other laws in the OT; yet hardly Christian...

Hekate

[arwalden]

40. Great Post!

I couldn't have said it better.

[kath]

56. Yeah, whatever happened to the Beatitudes? - the fundie assholes totally

ignore them, the heart of Christ's teachings.

[chopper]

37. really wanna mess with em?

don't put up shrines to buddha or wiccan stuff. get some jewish groups to put up some kind of shrine with 'jesus is not lord' at the bottom or something.

that'll put em inna bind.

[earth mom]

39. Has anyone ever told them that the first step is in practicing all 10?

:eyes: Guess they missed that part.

[cap]

41. I think we need historic displays of other religions on state grounds

and maybe explicitly Catholic displays as well.

Remember the early days of this country when everyone argued about his or her religion and people of differing forms of Christianity settled in different states and kicked out people who didnt conform ?

[Bridget Burke]

42. Such emphasis on the Ten Commandments is a Dominionist thing.

Here's what they want:

1) Make the ten commandments the law of the land, 2) Reduce the role of government to the defense of property rights, 3) Require “tithes” to ecclesiastical agencies to provide welfare services, 4) Close prisons – reinstitute slavery as a form of punishment and require capital punishment for all of ancient Israel’s capital offenses – including apostacy, blasphemy, incorrigibility in children, murder, rape, Sabbath breaking, sodomy, and witchcraft, 5) Close public schools – make parents totally responsible for the education of their children, and 6) Strengthen patriarchically ordered families.

From that radical site, "Mainstream Baptists"

www.mainstreambaptists.org/dominionism.htm

[Zhade]

88. I thought they claimed to be Christians, not Jews.

I mean, they keep following JEWISH FAITH TRADITIONS, so it's hard to tell.

[Hekate]

90. They are very very far from Judaism

Christian Reconstructionists/Dominionists base their interpretation of the Bible and "Biblical tradition" on a quite distorted view of the Old Testament. Modern Jews and ancient Hebrews alike would have a hard time recognizing this version of their God.

The god of the Reconstructionists/Dominionists is punitive and nasty. Much smiting is promised -- precious little love is in evidence. I've read the Bible, both OT and NT, and while I may have issues with some of what's in it, God and culture as presented there are multifaceted to say the least. In one chapter poor Job is persecuted for no good reason, in another Solomon is praising his lover's breasts and french-kissing her silly. I gather the CR/D's would approve heartily of Job's sufferings -- but what on Earth do they make of the sexy, happy, love poetry?

A couple of years ago I delved into the dark and scary world of the CR's -- I have not returned lately, but am sure the links below still work. If not, just Google for Christian Reconstructionism -- doing that took me directly to sites where these folks proudly displayed documents that explained their world-view.

I'm a great believer in religous tolerance, and not too long ago I would have simply written this sect off as a fringe group of nuts. However, my tolerance evaporated when I realized how influential they are in our current regime and how far their core ideas have spread.

Whatever they think they are, it's not Jewish. In their universe, Jews are all destined for eternal hellfire, and soon.

Hekate

Psst. Who's this God that talks to George W. Bush? Pass it on.
http://www.TheocracyWatch.org
http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/july02/kent_southard_nf.html
"The True Face Of The Conservatives Behind Bush"
http://www.politicalamazon.com/cr-links.html
Political Amazon: "Christian Reconstructionism Links"

[Zhade]

91. I know, it was just a reference to their reliance on the OT.

Or, to be more precise, their version of the OT.

As far as CRs and Dommies, of which I know a good bit, my view is this: tolerance for those who wish to control others is not a luxury I can afford.

[tanyev]

43. They're really going to be POed when these monuments

start getting defaced every day. Not that I advocate such a technique, but I think that's what will happen.

[KareBear]

44. A lot of societies in the past have turned to religious monuments...

right before the collapse of their society. Its seen as a desperate plea to their gods for some form of salvation when instinctively they know they are on their way out. A really good example of this is Easter Island (granted their scenario was much more complex than I'm going to get into here). I wonder if the Easter Islander's version of a SCOTUS ruled that they had the right to erect their monuments at a terrible cost to their economy and environment.

"Excuse me, Mr. Nero..err I mean Mr. Bush? You asked for a fiddle to play?"

[leesa]

45. What's with all the graven image worshipping?? Don't these loons know

that's why Moses busted up the first set?

[Patiod]

82. I'm tempted to find some opaque yellow paint

and go around highlighting the second commandment on these.

[Democat]

48. Some group needs to get together to promote Koran monuments!

The only way to stop this is to make sure they enforce it in a content-neutral way. They should be forced to allow monuments to the Koran and other religions anywhere that they allow these.

The left needs to learn how to fight - the way you fight this is to make them regret they ever asked for it.

It's time to start fighting dirty like these right wing crooks do!

Fund some Koran memorials and get them put on public property now!

[noonwitch]

50. As long as it's on their own land, I have no problem with it

If they would just accept this ruling and move on with their lives, they'd be a lot happier.

[barbaraann]

59. What would a Scientology monument be?

Just wondering. :-)

[Zhade]

89. I think we all know...

$$$

[cookiebird]

60. Follow the Money

I can't speak for the Supremes, but perhaps in their deliberations, they followed the $$$ trail. Which groups support the ugly granite blocks--very fundie religious groups who are bound 'n' determined to make sure all umerricans get to know 'gawd' Of course, tho', these aren't religious monuments. Nope, not a bit.

Actually, I'd question the 'faith' of these people that they need a visible reminder of its rules and regulations.

[2Design]

61. Maybe they need them posted because they can't remember

to follow them - they need to be reminded - but it has helped them to put them in practice

[grumpy old fart]

62. There's a church on every freaking corner in the freaking country....

and yet, there is a "War on Christianity"? Give me a freaking break!

[2Design]

63. thou shall not kill - they failed that one

they believe in war - they believe in killing

[2Design]

64. thou shall not have false gods before you - they failed that one too

they have bush and rush, and hannity, and fox news as false gods

[2Design]

65. thou shall not steal - they failed that one too

they stole all of the treasures in iraq
they are stealing the american peoples money
the iraq oil
and who knows what else

[karlrschneider]

66. But what about Exodus 20?

The Second Book of Moses, Called Exodus

Chapter 20

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any
thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that
is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD
thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

[Lecky]

67. They are kind of silly

Within hours of yesterday's Supreme Court decision allowing a Ten Commandments monument on the grounds of the Texas Capitol,Christian groups announced a nationwide campaign to install similar displays in 100 cities and towns within a year.

I mean...whatever makes them happy. They sound like rebellious teenagers "We'll show those pagan liberals, more pointless Christian monuments!".

There's a lot of poverty in this world, I'm sure the money...oh nevermind.

"We see this as an historic opening, and we're going to pursue it aggressively," said the Rev. Patrick J. Mahoney, director of the Washington-based Christian Defense Coalition, which organized vigils outside the Florida hospice where Terri Schiavo died this year.

...gawd, that says a lot right there.

[Az_lefty]

71. Which 10 Commandments?

Here's a link that looks at the Jewish, Catholic and Protestant versions.
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible%20Studies/10%20Commandments.htm

[Roland99]

73. What about the Beatitudes? That's what Jesus taught

The 10 Commandments were just a part of a vast array of Mosaic laws and rules and such.

Why not just display the entire books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy?

[anotherdrew]

74. behold, the dawn of the idol builders

[Bridget Burke]

76. Doesn't that violate Commandment #2?

You shall not make unto you any graven images.

That's from the Protesant version, of course. The "Church of Rome" (as Ian Paisly might say) leaves that one out.

[pilgrimsoul]

80. I don't see any fundagelical mega churches

erecting huge stone 10 commandments displays on THEIR grounds. Shouldn't these fundie churches display the 10 commandments on their OWN property before bemoaning their absence from public property?

[athenap]

85. You must not drive I-75 north of Cincinnati

http://www.jeeeb.us/

Violates the 8th deadly sin and the 11th commandment (Be thou NOT TACKY!)

[Sgent]

84. There's even a bigger issue

I personnaly like this

When Anu the Sublime, King of the Anunaki, and Bel, the lord of Heaven and earth, who decreed the fate of the land, assigned to Marduk, the over-ruling son of Ea, God of righteousness, dominion over earthly man, and made him great among the Igigi, they called Babylon by his illustrious name, made it great on earth, and founded an everlasting kingdom in it, whose foundations are laid so solidly as those of heaven and earth; then Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind.

The Preamble to HAMMURABI'S CODE OF LAWS. Probably the single most influential piece of law ever given.

[David Zephyr]

86. Kristians: Thou Shalt Make Lots of Graven Images.

[Cobalt Violet]

93. Vandalism is bound to rise too!

I will say no more.