US will 'have to face' military draft dilemma: senator (Biden)

[Pirate Smile]

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The United States will "have to face" a painful dilemma on restoring the military draft as rising casualties result in persistent shortfalls in US army recruitment, a top US senator warned.

Joseph Biden, the top Democrat of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, made the prediction after new data released by the Pentagon showed the US Army failing to meet its recruitment targets for four straight months.

"We're going to have to face that question," Biden said on NBC's "Meet the Press" television show when asked if it was realistic to expect restoration of the draft.

"The truth of the matter is, it is going to become a subject, if, in fact, there's a 40 percent shortfall in recruitment. It's just a reality," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050612/ts_alt_afp/usiraqrecruitment;_ylt=AsQaTPtLG3L8UAWFi1mioX.yFz4D;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[pie]

1. The Dems will be DEMANDING the draft any day now!

And those republicans better give in without
a fight God Damn it!

[pie]

2. LIEberman has the papers on his desk this minute!

Who will lead the charge to reinstate the draft?
All I know is: it's bound to be a 'Democrat'!

Where have all the Democrats gone?

[merwin]

6. It's a good way to get people's attention on the war though. Once

there is a draft, those snotty rich republicans will be demanding that we leave Iraq.

[pie]

9. Do you think rich folks gonna get sent to Iraq/Iran?

I do not. Anyway, the super-rich will avoid the draft entirely,
and they are the only ones bush is concerned with.
The rich can burn with the rest as far as bush is concerned.

[merwin]

11. If there's a draft, yes.

They've pretty much re-written the rules to allow for almost NO exceptions. You can't just say you're going to school anymore. I believe you're now allowed to finish the semester and then you're shipped off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Only exception for people studying to become ministers

many will find Jeeesuss, and they will have much money, and after they are done with Jeessus they will go to Jehova and Budha, you get the drift

[Yellow_Dog]

30. HELL NO!

they gotta go first, after all this is a religious war isn't it? Who better than Gods front line soldiers, those in the pulpit and profess that they know exactly what God wants.

And of course God will protect them so they need personal body army or armored Hummer's.

Plus the Bush twins, Cheney's gay daughter (don't ask, don't tell is still in effect isn't it?)

[merwin]

34. Actually, you now have to commit sodomy before they will kick you out.

You can't just say you're gay or act gay anymore.

[ToeBot]

96. Oh, to be young again! n/t

[Zerex71]

26. The J&B twins should be first in line.

Or will they be too busy whoring it up in Texas?

[Yellow_Dog]

102. they should support daddy

by going to war, after all their daddy went to war to support his daddy

[99Pancakes]

67. Hey, Shrubby!

[AndyTiedye]

103. NO! It is a TERRIBLE Way -- Because Dems Will Get Blamed for It!

We must NEVER be seen to advocate a return to the draft!
That would destroy the best issue we have to attack the regime
and set us up to take the blame for it instead. STOOOOOOOOOPID!!!!!

We should point out that the regime is secretly planning to restore the
draft. There is plenty of evidence, which has been posted many times here.
We were doing this last fall, not in any organized fashion, but
it was really having an impact nonetheless. We were getting serious traction.
Boosh** was starting to panic. He was being forced, for the first time,
to react to what we were saying. If we had made a bit more noise about
it, Kerry might have gotten too far ahead for **'s minions to steal it

If Democrats push the draft, we can never use that issue against the Republicans.
We SHOULD be using it against them, since it is their military misadventurism
that brought us to this point.

I know some of you would like to see the kids of rich Republicans get
sent off to die in Iraq, but it's not gonna happen. Draft or no draft.
Those who have the gold will certainly make the rules when it comes
to protecting their own kids. Our pResident himself is a prime
example.

Those are the political reasons. There is also the sheer folly of
giving this pResident that kind of power. This regime has terribly
abused every bit of authority they have ever been given. With the
power of conscription, they can start more wars at will. They can
declare martial law! ** can declare himself Resident-for-Life!


The answer is not to start up the draft. The answer is to end the war!

[mom cat]

107. Bingo!

[Toots]

112. No it doesn't matter, Republicans have all the power

Everybody knows they have all the power and a draft will not happen unless the Republicans allow it. Everyone knows that. If Democrats propose it they will claim the Republicans are destroying the Military and a draft is absolutely necessary to keep the military intact. If they play it correctly they can place all blame on Republicans and all credit on Democrats. But no matter who proposes it the draft is almost inevitable and we could not have a better means for fighting current and future "Wars for Profit" and whether you are Republican or Democrat that should be the ultimate goal.

[AndyTiedye]

115. That Makes It Matter Even More

If Democrats propose it they will claim the Republicans are destroying the Military and a draft is absolutely necessary to keep the military intact.

But nobody will hear us saying that. They'll just hear on the "news"
that Democrats and Republicans both supported the draft.

If they play it correctly they can place all blame on Republicans and all credit on Democrats.

If pigs could fly and we owned the media, we might be able to do that.

But no matter who proposes it the draft is almost inevitable

and there is no possible benefit to us in supporting it in any way.
We need to point to the regime's preparations for a draft and for more
wars as proof that they are lying to us again.

and we could not have a better means for fighting current and future "Wars for Profit"

But we don't want any more wars for profit!!!! The draft would
be used to expand the Crusade!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pirate Smile]

14. Did you forget this smiley?

:sarcasm:

[pie]

21. I wish I were not so damn angry over this

How many times will they stab us in the back
before this nightmare is over?

Here's that smiley: :)

[Vincardog]

35. Let the REpugs demand the Draft to support BUSH'S WAR.

Why should the Democrats demand it? They should stand up and oppose BUSH'S War of aggression and the draft.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

43. I agree, it pisses me off that Dems would be advocating this.

Let Repubs advocate this "solution" to the Iraq/wrecking of the U.S. military mess.

If Dems are too cowardly to be in the lead calling for U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, let's definitely not be in the lead calling for a draft.

Really makes me wonder sometimes whether some people like Biden are complete moles for the Republican Party...

A draft is the ONE thing you virtually never hear escape from any Repub's lips, as they know that that's the one thing that could actually spell the end of their political machine's dominance, crooked voting machines or not.

[tavalon]

52. But it's not Democrats advocating this,

it's Biden and Lieberman. They're DINOs and need desperately to be shown the door. They can go hang out with Zell Miller.

[Vincardog]

59. Right don't let the door hit you on the way to re register Republican.

We have to impeach immediately and take the House in 06.
Dean speaks for me.

[tblue37]

69. You know what's wrong with this?

When the obvious intention of having a draft enters into public awareness, they will blame it on the Democrats, and insist that the draft is a Dem idea, while the Republicans are trying to avoid it.

They won't allow themselves to understand that the reason for a draft is that BushCo broke the all-volunteer force, and they don't plan to withdraw from Iraq or to refrain from invading other sovereign nations, so they will inevitably reinstitute the draft unless the dumb sh*t American voters finally rise up in sufficient numbers to vote the Republican war machine out of office with such a resounding majority that no Diebold machine can cover for it.

[bluestateguy]

3. Even the navy missed its goal

"The army, navy and Marine Corps reserves also fell short of their monthly goals by 18 percent, six percent and 12 percent respectively, according to the figures."

They had been meeting their quotas for the last couple of years, as had the Air Force. Now I guess the shortage has spread, and it may not be long before the Air Force starts having a hard time too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Biden is right, but the pukes will fight it

I am not a suporter of this war, but IF we are gonna "spread freedom and democracy" :puke: :puke: :puke: across the middle east, then we need a force that can do that.

Look folks as much as biden is not my favorite Senator, he is right on this one... and the question of the Draft will increasingly be raised. (And if anybody beleives the neo cons don't have it in their agenda of things to do.. read the Project for a New American Century).

Now I wonder if now the pukes will try hard to push it beyond 2006, in which case the US Military will be beyond a broken force. I remind you, some elements of the force are already broken.

Now it is how we use this... as piss poor planning by REPUBLICANS has led to the breaking of the finest militayr in the world... turn the mantra around... Republcians are bad for defense, and it is their piss poor planning that has led us to this point.

[pie]

7. I say: NO DRAFT!

I say: time to get the hell out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Agreed

but you need to think how to turn this on its head with your repuke local friends. You see democrats are bad for defense they tell us, but they achieved operations in Bosnia with no draft, Republicans are bad for defense for they have broken the military to the point we are talking draft

Republicans are dangerous to the country

Republicans hate the military

It is because of Republcians we even need to raise the D word

FRAMING

Then again, I will start putting recrutment forms on Bush Chenney vehicles.. my way of telling them how to truly suport the troops, become one.

;-)

[pie]

20. I fear nothing will sway the opinions of these bush supporters

In the course of destroying the country to save it
they will sieze upon every downturn to tighten
their death grip. Soon there may be no turning back.

Hell no, we won't go!

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. We are now stratring to push back

FINALLY

Look today you can even find some who STILL support Nixon.. but most Bush suporters aka most among the people, will be like Nixon Suporters thirty years ago... you won't be able to find them

In spite of all, the people ARE starting to wake up...

Now work on your messaging and take advantage of things like this one..... they are a gift, for they point the incompetence of the Nuts in charge

[llmart]

105. You're exactly right.

My husband will never admit to anyone that he voted for Nixon when I voted for McGovern. I have an excellent memory and I remember telling him that Nixon was a sleazebag and that there were already rumblings in some of the press about his antics but my husband thought I was cynical. Now he has revised his history and won't say he voted for him even though I know he did.

Same goes for Bush.

[saskatoon]

42. Republicans hate the military? where in hell are you coming from for crap

Thay LOVE IT| Remember eisenhowers quote about the military/ industrialist complex. Do i have to spell it out ! Rep. are for Corp and they are the one half of the duo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. not ffrom the troop point of view

and that is the point of view that matters to mothers and fathers and vets....

so hammer on it, how they are so incompetent they have broken the force

[iamjoy]

78. You Are Right, Nadin...

It could well be a bluff. You know, we either need to leave Iraq or bring back the draft. WE have to watch the framing


If we handle it right and the media doesn't do the Repub work, it could work to our advantage. We point out how the Repubs have ruined the military and rethink what we're doing in Iraq to come up with something that works.

If it doesn't work, we get the draft and it all gets blamed on the Dems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Look the Right WILL blame it ont he dems regardles

if we pull out (my hope) it was the cowards who did it

If there is a draft, well it was the dems who started this

Now it is time to go on the offensive... it is the Republicans who have ruined the volunteer military... TIME TO PLAY ON THE OFFENSIVE

And... if we do intend to stay in Iraq (PNAC) then PNACers put all your damn cards on the table...

[Daphne08]

50. Right. I'm not sacrificing my sons for this damned illegal war!

:mad:

[Orsino]

111. Don't even talk to me about a draft...

...until we restore democratic control of the military.

[Postman]

51. so when we discover we're headed in the wrong direction, ...

we double our speed?

No draft, just get the hell out of Iraq.

It's too late to put the horse back in the barn. The time for massive troop strength was when the Saddam statue fell to provide security.

So now it's my kids obligation to die for Wolfowitz's fuck-up?

No fuckin' way.

BTW, I'm a veteran.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. We are on the wrong direction

but it is time to use all they have done, all their clusterfucks to go on the offensive... PAINT pukes as bad for national security and defense.

If they were good for defense and national security the D word woudl not be used now, would it?

FRAMING people, FRAMING

[Vincardog]

62. In that case the Republicans BROKE IT LET THEM FIX IT.

Not one Democrat should support a draft to support BUSH'e WAR.

[Zhade]

74. Biden's technically right, but I wish a NON-PNAC fan had said it.

With Biden's never-ending support for this illegal clusterfuck, it's not reassuring to hear these words from the guy who endorsed PNAC.

[AndyTiedye]

104. Flawed Premise, But You Know That

I am not a suporter of this war,

The only it will end it is if ** can't get anybody to fight it for him.
Stop the draft and the war will stop.

but IF we are gonna "spread freedom and democracy" :puke: :puke: :puke: across the middle east, then we need a force that can do that.

That is a big IF! We are not spreading anything except death and
destruction there. Even with the best of intentions, we can't
spread freedom and democracy in a place where we can't even speak
the language. So much of the killing is a result of miscommunication.
Draftees would dilute the already tiny pool of Arabic-speakers in the military even further.

Look folks as much as biden is not my favorite Senator

I started to dislike him after he helped stuff the Rave Act into
the Amber Alert bill in the conference committee in the dead of
night, precluding any debate on the Rave Act in either house.
They had received tens of thousands of letters, phone calls,
faxes, and petitions opposing it, but what do they care what we think?

he is right on this one...

NO! This gives ** bipartisan "cover" when he decides (very soon)
to start up the draft so he can expand the Crusade to Iran, Syria....
But then Biden and Lieberman probably like that idea. :puke:

and the question of the Draft will increasingly be raised.

YES, but we should do it in a way that does not imply any support for it!
Something like this:

"How can we believe you when you say you are not going to start up
the draft? You are sending our troops on extended and repeated
deployments, and stop-lossing them when they try to leave the service.
You are making bellicose noises at still more countries, while our
troops are mired in Iraq with no end in sight. It doesn't add up.
You lied about the war. How do we know you are not lying when you
say you will not start up the draft?"

This denies ANY bipartisan support for the draft. If Biden and
Lieberman continue to support it then, it exposes them as tools of PNAC.

(And if anybody beleives the neo cons don't have it in their agenda of things to do.. read the Project for a New American Century).

A draft is essential to their plans. Obviously. That is the most
essential reason to oppose it every step of the way.

Now I wonder if now the pukes will try hard to push it beyond 2006, in which case the US Military will be beyond a broken force. I remind you, some elements of the force are already broken.

They are going for it THIS YEAR and Biden and Lieberman are IN ON IT!
They could do it next year, but they'll really have to crank
up those Diebold voting machinez if they do that.

Now it is how we use this... as piss poor planning by REPUBLICANS has led to the breaking of the finest militayr in the world... turn the mantra around... Republcians are bad for defense, and it is their piss poor planning that has led us to this point.

What is causing the military to be "broken" is being forced to fight
an war on false pretenses, with inadequate materials, and having
needlessly alienated the entire local population. Throwing hundreds
of thousands of draftees into the mix is not going to "fix" the
military, nor will it bring peace and stability to the region.

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Exhibits/Track16/nobody_came.html

[katty]

110. Let the pukes call for a draft-as they dig their graves

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Biden: PNAC mouthpiece, corporate whore EOM

[nolabels]

100. He is same piece of shit that helped put the wraps on IRAN - CONTRA

I will celebrate the day that manure pile retires


http://www.londonstimes.us/toons/index_cows.html

[pennylane100]

8. The draft will bring out the anti war crowds again.

I hope the draft never comes, but if it does, I hope the ensuing demonstrations will bring this corrupt right-winged dictatorship to its knees.

[pie]

13. We marched against the invasion of Iraq, don't you remember?

That had no effect. We will march again, and have no effect.

They have siezed control, the opinions and rights of the people do not matter.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Then why are you even posting here

I have not stopped fighting, nor will I stop fighting... I just need to find creative ways of doing this... by the way here is one site you may want to creatively use....

http://justicefornone.com/handbills/

[pie]

22. I am looking for solutions

I am not one of those who believes it will all be OK if we let them
self-destruct. They have weathered every storm without
event a dent in their armor. We need solutions.

(Thank you for the website.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. One solution is to make Republicans guilty of

everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that is wrong

It means lamblasting them during the water cooler wars

It means making them look so incompetent, they are, that people will start to challenge the programing. Will this be easy? Hell no, been at this for a while... but even some of my friends, not hard core bushbots, are now questioning the administration and one of them is even readying krugman now

[pie]

29. I'm all over that. I am never shy about my convictions.

The fight will continue.

[coalition_unwilling]

113. I can understand your frustration, but as an (amateur) historian

of the Vietnam era, I can tell you that were a draft to be re-enacted, you would see pre-revolutionary (or even revolutionary) conditions in this country, akin to what prevailed ca. 1969-72.

There would be massive civil disobedience to dwarf what took place before the Iraq disaster. When the children of the middle, upper-middle and (dare I hope for it?) upper classes have to go fight, their parents (taxpayers) start taking politics much more seriously.

Personally, imho, if you have a republic and it's worth preserving, you will have universal military conscription. Otherwise, you end up with a "mercenary army," a Praetorian guard only serving the interests of the ruling oligarchy.

[KoKo]

15. Lindsey Graham (R) said "NO!" to draft today on one of the pundit shows.

So, they know if they they call for a draft Bush goes into the low digits in his polls.

Right now they are fighting and the Dems have the "edge" to push for draft because they know it's "Put up for PNAC or shut the hell up about Bush's endless wars to "spread freedom and democracy."

The Repugs are caught in a dilemna of their own making. Between "Iraq and a Hard Place."

Watching them dig themselves out will be interesting....but sickening. Ugh. :-(

[CTyankee]

16. The draft killed the support for the Vietnam War

IMHO, and I lived through that era. Enough draft eligible males (mostly in college) revolted, along with their families (notably, the group called Another MOther for Peace) that the support for the war just dwindled down.

[pie]

28. Things were different then

This time the enemy has:
absolute control of The Media, the religion factor, a deeply divided country, a dangerously uninformed populace,
and complete control of all three branches.

[madrchsod]

18. maybe get out of iraq?

[southernleftylady]

19. nope this wont happen this "war" will be ended just in time lol

this would be political suicide and bring "freedom" to Iraq wont be that important to the American citizens anymore.. mark my words

[AnotherMother4Peace]

23. My mom joined AnotherMotherForPeace when my bro

was in Nam, here it is 40 years later - another quagmire. I have 2 draft age boys that I'm not willing to sacrifice in Bush/Rove/Chaney/Halibutin's war. The reason for this war was what? WMD's, Democracy? Oil? No, our family is very patriotic, but no - they can't have my sons. How about the Bush twins, will they be enlisting soon?

[ikojo]

27. I think that before there is a draft in this country...

an event that will wake the sleeping giant of dissent....I think the US will seriously consider employing greater numbers of contracted soldiers from around the world. There are plenty of very poor people from which to recruit. Since they would be contracted soldiers they would not be subject to US laws and would be able to do as many right-wingers want...lay waste to the insurgents.

[Goldmund]

31. The draft SHOULD be restored. That's my position.

Yes, in some utopian sense, nobody should be able to force another human being to fight in a war.

But according to that same tenet, the American voter should not be able to help force people in OTHER COUNTRIES to fight in wars either.

For one, had there been an active draft, the faux "fear" of Saddam wouldn't have measured up to the risk of dying after being drafted. The "justifications" they gave would not have been sufficient; they were only sufficient because the American voter is groomed to think of deaths in other countries as insignificant, so in sum, the cost of such a decision was almost abstract. On one side, there were Bush, Rummy & Co touting the "danger" from Saddam -- and in a no-draft environment the question "what if they are right?" gains much more weight than it would would have in the conditions of an existing draft. "What if they are right?" wouldn't have outweighed "shit, I'll be sent to a war!". In general, the only time "shit, I'll be sent to a war" is sufficiently outweighed is if the populace is convinced that they're waging a war of defense. Then "shit, I'll be sent to a war" is outweighed by "shit, my house will be bombed!".

As it is, the American voter uses the ballot as a trigger, safely tucked away behind CNN fireworks. It's an easy trigger to pull. The draft makes that trigger have more weight.

[CTyankee]

33. Using the ballot as a trigger

makes me think of some recent articles I've read on how Athens lost its democracy in the fifth century b.c. against Sparta. It's a long story, told in The HIstory of the Peloponnisian War by Thucydides, but it makes the case against a democracy seeing the easy way to triumph with unrestrained militarism, instead of Periclean persuasion.

These articles point out the analogies between fifthe century Athens and our democracy today. It would be well for us to read them and weep.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[acmejack]

45. Please

"Right now the American soldiers fighting this war are people who pretty much enjoy killing for a living."

Not in this veteran's experience, very few people actually enjoy killing,whether for a living or not. That statement is unbelievably condescending and just flat wrong, to boot.

[Trajan]

57. Rarely do I disagree with NNN ....

But Im with you on this: 'some' soldiers my 'like to kill' ... 'many' ? .. perhaps, but I doubt it ...

But ALL of them ? ... cmon: since when is such a universal statement valid ? ...

I cannot believe that liberals would promote a draft just to prove some arcane point .... it is mindless ...

You want to see improved recruitment in the US Military ? ... then GET THESE IDIOT NEOCONS OUT OF OFFICE .....

That wou,d bring some sanity back into US foreign policy, ad bring greater numbers back into the recruitment offices ...

[Goldmund]

76. It's not so "arcane" and "mindless"...

...to those in Iraq who had their houses bombed because the American voter was quick to support a war-monger.

[coalition_unwilling]

114. I agree. While the military probably

contains psychopaths and sociopaths (think Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz), their prevalence in the military most likely replicates their prevalence in the general population.

I once saw a saying that "a bayonet is a weapon with a worker at each end." I think that most American enlisted soldiers should be thought of as members of the working class, i.e., victims of a "poverty draft". As somewhat poignant evidence of this, check out Lyndie England's backstory before entering the Army.

[blue neen]

49. I respectfully disagree with this statement:

"Right now the American soldiers fighting this war are people who pretty much enjoy killing for a living."

There are many Reserves fighting this war, a lot of them kids who signed up so they could get a college education--they couldn't afford one otherwise. There are moms and dads fighting this war. I'd imagine they think of their own kids all the time while fighting George Bush's War and not wanting to kill someone else's child.

There are soldiers who don't want to be in Iraq. Someone posted a story on DU last week about a loved one who came home from Iraq very relieved because he made it through without having to kill anyone.

I believe our soldiers deserve more respect than blanket generalizations about their capacity to kill.

[NNN0LHI]

60. This post is for acmejack and blue neen

I will try to kill two birds with one stone here. (No pun intended)

I think is what we have here is a failure to communicate. You guys both quoted my post but still misunderstood it. Thats alright though, I do it all the time myself. My statements was:

>>>"Right now the American soldiers fighting this war are people who pretty much enjoy killing for a living."<<<

That statement is factually correct. The majority of US soldiers in Iraq will never even shoot their gun in anger much less kill an Iraqi. They are cooks, mailmen, etc.

So the soldiers who are purposely volunteering for dangerous duty where they are likely to kill some Iraqis would naturally be the guys who enjoy this type of work. And this ain't all bad either. Shit if we ever got in a real war where if we lost another country could come in here these are exactly the kind of guys I would want on the front line. I wouldn't want no mister nice guys on the front lines in that situation. But to suggest these guys do not like doing what they are trained to do is wrong.

Don

[Goldmund]

73. I think you miss my point

"you don't want to ever start drafting people unless the very existence of America is threatened."

I'm not in favor of a toggled draft system, where sometimes it's in effect and sometimes it's not. I'm in favor of a system in which there is a draft for EVERY war, and the voter is forced to face the costs of EVERY war -- not simply dump them onto others, as they do now.

And the exact reason I'm for it is because then we would be closer to the ideal of only waging defensive wars -- or, "when the very existence of America is threatened". Voters would not endorse any other wars -- or, rather, they would not endorse wars which they have not been convinced are defensive.

[NNN0LHI]

79. But see thats the rub

In a situation where the very existence of America is threatened there would be no need for a draft. Parents would be encouraging their kids to fight and maybe die for their country.

But when parents can see that we are not involved in the defense of our country but rather for some other darker reasons they will discourage them from enlisting.

And as far as a draft where you have a "system in which there is a draft for EVERY war, and the voter is forced to face the costs of EVERY war -- not simply dump them onto others, as they do now", there has never been such a thing before. The wealthy and connected were always able to keep their children from being drafted. That is part of the scam, don't you see?

Don

[Goldmund]

81. Yes, sure it is.

The wealthy are less than 1% of the population. In order to rule, they have to get the support of approximately one half of the rest -- or suspend democracy at its core, which then would also be inviting a reaction from the non-wealthy.

"In a situation where the very existence of America is threatened there would be no need for a draft."

That may be -- but those are the only situations worth waging a war.

[NNN0LHI]

85. The wealthy may be only 1% of the population...

...but I think the percentage of the connected is much higher. I knew many guys who received exemptions from the draft during Vietnam not because of their wealth but because of where they went to church or who their fathers played poker with. So there is another variable that needs to be taken into account.

Don

[tabasco]

75. That is an ignorant statement.

Do you really think the grunts fighting this war are having a good time?

Unbelievably ignorant.

[NNN0LHI]

83. Yea, a fighter bomber pilot, a tank captain, an attack helo pilot....

...or a sniper are doing these jobs because they are squeamish about killing the people who they consider the enemy. They decided to do these jobs because they hated the thought of hurting other people. Right? This is the military. Their profession they chose involves killing people. Someone is ignorant around here. I'll grant you that.

Don

[LibertyorDeath]

91. Holy fuck Don that sounds like common sense

You do realize it will lead to confusion amongst the

"they only kill when they must brigade"

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Those who have been in combat

hate it, more than you will ever know


This is the wrong kind of statement to make, but if you believe that troops love to kill, I suspect yuuo have watched way too many hollywood movies

[conflictgirl]

99. I think that generalization is just as wrong as the other

I don't believe all troops love to kill. I have known of far too many who came back from combat traumatized by the fact that they had to do it, and that's why I can't believe they all love it.

But some certainly do enjoy it. I have a cousin who's an Iraq vet and he said there were quite a few guys (sniper types, not your run of the mill supply clerk or cook) who thought it was "fun" to kill Iraqis. He said that a lot of them really seemed to have the attitude that it was like a grown-up's version of cops and robbers, in which the troops saw themselves as fighting valiantly against the "bad guys".

I could even be willing to go so far as to guess that MOST troops do not enjoy the killing. But I don't fool myself into thinking that all are so noble because that just doesn't jibe with what I know of human nature in general. There are always some people who are sadists, even in the military.

[wakeme2008]

32. STFU Biden

No to any DRAFT..... Let Bush FORCE one....

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. JUST AS PREDICTED HERE ON DU!!! Here it comes.

Damn them. DRAFT REPUBLICANS!!!!!

[Timmy5835]

39. Relax......

If Biden and the rest of his merry band want to get re-elected, a draft is the LAST thing he or any of them will propose. Remember, House members face re-election every 2 years. A draft starts in the House. Biden's not in the House so he can say anything he wants.

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Sorry, but Congressman Charlie Rangel (Democrat) has already drafted

a draft bill in the House. The last email I had from him said he was STILL trying to get it to the floor and passed. HIS bill calls for the repuke's kids to go fight also. Not just the poor, underprivledged. It's in the works already. I have a 12 year old son. I will NEVER relax as long as these warmongering FOOLS are in power. :grr:

[FourStarDemocrat]

61. My twelve year old son asked me just the other day if he'll be drafted..

Kids are already talking about it at school, about the possibility of being drafted in a few years for Bush's war, and he was worried. I assured him that he will not have to go, even if there is a draft. He does have a medical excuse, so he wouldn't go anyway, but I worry about his friends and all the other kids. Not for any bullshit republican war will I send my boys to risk their lives.

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. It 's just sad that 12 year old kids have to worry about being killed

in Iraq because of someone like the idiot-in-chief! There's no way in HELL my child will ever fight one of his wars. EVER! 12 year olds are suppose to be thinking about baseball, football, school and "childhood things"...not war! I hate that SOB for what he's done to this country and our children. The children in Iraq and the ones who fear going. :grr:

[FourStarDemocrat]

86. I totally agree, it is sad.

And sad that our children are growing up with a criminal in the White House. But at least some of us are helping them to become aware, informed, and able to resist the spin and propaganda. Both of my sons have become very good at this already, even my nine year-old.

[Timmy5835]

108. Relax, again

The Rangel bill will NEVER pass the House. It has no where near the votes for passage.

[vanboggie]

38. I'll fight to the death before my kid goes

No way no how - not dying for Bushco. No to the draft for OUR kids' sake.

[Karenina]

40. Yeah. Right.

So Amis shall offer their chidren up on the *BFEE altar. I DO NOT THINK SO, no matter how willingly ignorant they are.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

48. What is "Amis"? BFEE?

[Karenina]

64. Welcome to DU, AnotherMother!

Ami is short for American on this side of the pond.

Bush
Family
Evil
Empire

This thread will drop you off in the middle...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3832033

It's a LOT to ponder while connecting the dots to the present.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

88. Thanks - I'm not quite up to speed w/all the acronyms, etc. eom

[spanone]

41. I think they will stall. The Next administration will be saddled with it.

Watch & see.

[Beaver Tail]

46. The Gang needs to put their money where their mouth is

Barbara and Jenna Bush, Donald Rumsfeld's Children and Grand Children, Dicks Daughter, Paul Wolfowitz's children etc... need to ALL be drafted if the draft comes through. That will show us how much they REALLY believe in the war on Iraq. Of course this will never happen but if the draft does come through i would DEMAND that any and all of their children old enough to be drafted IS drafted befoer sending anyone elses children to die.

[Postman]

47. So volunteer, or we will take your kids by force.....

Not mine.

[Daphne08]

55. Not mine either!

Those who are so quick to say DRAFT may not have children in their late teens and twenties and even thirties, but many of us here DO!

...and some of us are even old enough to remember the HELL of Vietnam! Thanks, but no thanks.

They will NOT get my kids!

When 9-11 happened, one of my sons called me and said he was going to enlist (even though he was in college). I said, Hell NO, you're not!

Now he's out and my youngest is still in school.

I didn't spend ALL these years and ALL this love and ALL this heartache and ALL this scrimping and scraping to see my kids maimed or killed in any war-- except to defend this country! Then I would gladly join them in that fight!

Until then, NO! They cannot have my kids for their ill-advised war!

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

54. Draft SHOULD be supported...quickest way to end the war by far.

Nothing stops a stupid war in its tracks like having the children of chicken-hawks drafted for service.

Plus, supporting the draft would give a needed impression of strength for the Dems and paint Repukes in a corner for NOT supporting our troops.

JB

[lcbart]

56. If we had capable,honest leadership....

There would be no need for a draft. If Bush & Co. weren't leading us into illusionary conflicts, rcruitment would not be down.

And yes - I know we're already there so we have to finish it. But believe me I've heard that time and time before. Between say 1968 and 1972.

The idea that Democrats are saying there may be a legitimate need for a draft makes my stomach turn. Have we learned nothing ? Don't we see that "Islamic terrorist" is just a substitution for communist?

The USA has a disease. It's called "National Narcissitic Personal Disorder".

[Zhade]

77. Your last sentence describes your second paragraph.

Why, exactly, do we have to stay, and how can we, the problem in Iraq, fix Iraq's problems?

Time to get the hell out!

[IndianaGreen]

58. We don't need a draft Joe, what we need is to withdraw from Iraq now!

The only thing we will accomplish by putting more warm bodies in military uniforms is to expand the number of names that will go on the marble walls of a future Iraq War Memorial in Washington, DC.

Let's save lives! Let's get out of Iraq NOW!

[leftchick]

68. I believe Kennedy and Byrd are the only Dems calling for that!

Isn't that a sorry fucking statement about the Party? God, they are clueless.

[IndianaGreen]

82. They are repeating the same mistakes they made during Vietnam

I don't know whether it is that they are unable or unwilling to remember the mistakes of the past, or whether they want to get reelected so bad that they won't tell the American people the truth for fear that they will punish the messenger for a message many of them don't want to hear.

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

63. Sorry for the duplicate

I posted this in another draft thread ...

Is anyone willing to speculate on who will be subjected to the draft? I'm assuming it will be 18-24 year-olds or something like that, but does anyone have any knowledge of this process?

[AnotherMother4Peace]

71. Welcome AAARRRGGGHHH !!!! - I'm assuming those young men (&

women?) will be the ones to be drafted. I'm investigating all the angles right now (for my sons). I don't know if you're in that group, or have someone dear in that group, but, as a nation, we can't let it happen. God knows I don't know how to "fix" the mess that Bush/Rove has made. He's got us in a real pickle, but I'm not ready to sacrifice my boys for his mistakes.

[AAARRRGGGHHH]

93. Thank you for the welcome!

I will be 30 this summer, so I'm not so worried about myself. My fiancee is 23, though, and like you, I am researching every possible angle to keep her out of this animal's war(s), and I swear I will do everything I can to make sure no one else ahs to go, either.

If I can find anything, I'll be sure to post it. Again, many thanks for the kind words; I will have your family in my thoughts.

Brian.

[leftchick]

106. I believe they have expanded to 34 years old

and both Men and Women will be eligible. :(

[NeoConsSuck]

65. I'm sure the chimp will dust off his coke spoon..

for his two skanky daughters. They probably already have their 'bama bar stool picked out.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NVMojo]

72. send republicans first!!!

[insane_cratic_gal]

80. Idiots blaming Dems

for a draft because Biden is out there discussing it LOL

geeezzzzz

It's yahoo message board though, usually the intelligence factor is on par with the village Idiot.
:crazy:

<snip>

"The Democrats want to start the draft up again. Why we have about 1.3 million troups in the service and about 140,000 are in Iraq.

We are bring troups home from Europe where at one time we had 400,000.

If the draft is restarted the quality of the soilder will really degrade. It will be like the public schools, poor quailty people."


Someone want to point him to the article that states the US Army is already lowering standards, perhaps he'd join?

[newyorican]

84. I just missed the draft in the early 70s...

I now fear for my son.

I recall being terrified at the prospect of being one of those kids dropped into the jungle to fight in a war I did not understand.

[ngGale]

87. Yes, it's becoming reality and one...

that will hurt. There is no other way especially if we want to attack Iran, or other countries on *'s list. OMG - it's going to happen all over again. Didn't we learn any lessons from Vietnam?

:mad:

[Geo55]

90. Go ahead dumass....

this will be the tipping point.
Up till now , only unfortunates & jingoists are getting blown to pieces....start pullin' the kids from Mom & Dads arms.

[humus]

95. they're back

[The_Casual_Observer]

98. Invite all the freepers to go first.

They love this war, they actually believe that the war is being fought for freedom. they would be motivated to fight "the bad guys".

[cestpaspossible]

97. Since Biden is unwilling to face the question of whether to withdraw

from Iraq, he's prepared to face the question of whether to institute a draft.

[olddad56]

101. "It's just reality"...

Wait until the reality of having the government take your kid away from you to be killed in an illegal invasion sets in with the people. Then we are going to see what reality is really about. The draft will open some eyes.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

109. Biden is a NeoCon in Dem clothing. Pure and simple.