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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:38 AM
Original message
An AWOL State of Mind - NY Post
Soldiers are calling a hotline to inquire as to the penalities if they simply go AWOL. No wonder Rummy is delaying leaves for personnel in Iraq, he doesn't want the embarrassment of having to arrest half of his own troops.

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/7316.htm
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. how many of the soldiers that were dumped
in Baltimore are going to have a hard time *finding their way back* to chimpy's quagmire???
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. I wonder about that too
this is really a nightmare :-(
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. I also wonder about recruitment
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 02:15 PM by proud patriot
Our local news did a segment about the economy being
so bad that recruitment is up .
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Well, the power of example!
Seriously, this is significant - in NY Post. last summer we had plenty of news from the front to this effect, then they muzzled them. So, the reality is just back. Good.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. Some Who Go AWOL Become President
I say go for it men/women
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Zero Gravitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. Only if you have a rich powerful Daddy
these are just ordinary folks who would be punished for desertion. I don't think the rich and powerful serve in the military, they let poor people do the dying for them.
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chromotone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. *RING*...*RING*..."Welcome to the NEW *GI Rights Hotline*..."
If you are contemplating going AWOL

And your last name is "Bush," then press "1" for immediate access to a "counselor" who'll have you out of the military with an honorable discharge within 24 hours;

All other callers press "2" and your call will be answered in the order received. Your call is VERY important to us so please stay on the line. Also, be advised your call may be recorded for "quality purposes."
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. WOW!!!!!.........Can't blame them!!!..........Rummy is no leader!!!
UNJUST War does not deserve "JUST" men
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olmy Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. That number rings directly into the Oval office
There's a guy there that can give them excellent AWOL info.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
24. LOL!
man you good. I hope others read this! :)
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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
45. Good one olmy
...
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. I do believe that the warmongers have alienated
the military base

"There is no morale here," he wrote his aunt. "The leadership just doesn't care about us. I don't want anything to do with this mess anymore."
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
31. one weekend a month

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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. Imagine going AWOL in the middle of a "war!"
Oh, yeah. Where was bu$h circa 1972-73? As Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States of America, he needs to address this issue and take a Firm Stand.

:freak:
dbt
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. Maybe someone could post the penalites for going awol here.
Might help out someone wondering what his or her
options might be. Death...awol....death...awol...
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Its in the story
>>>Penalties for going AWOL range from a bad-conduct discharge to a court martial and jail time.<<<

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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Your penalties may vary...
...depending on the wealth and political connections of your Daddy!
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Or if your last name is Bush
an Honorable Discharge then Gov. and the ultimate "reward" for going AWOL, Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. Really, what can Bush* say about anyone going awol during a "war"? Guess it's "Do as I say, not as I did." Fine example Bush* is to our brave men and women of the military. He lies to them, he reduces their pay, limits their water and food, gives them inadquate supplies/equipment, leaves them stranded in a strange city while on leave.......and on and on and on. Wonder how many are still happy that there is a "New Sheriff in Town?"
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. I'm in a law library right now
give me a couple minutes and I'll be back with info
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. ok, here's the word from the ACLU (part 1 - Desertion)
in their 'The Rights of Servicemen' handbook

First of all, there's a difference between being AWOL and Deserting - the difference being mostly one of intent. Someone who goes AWOL doesn't necessarily intend to completely abandon his duties, desertion means you're blowing this popsicle stand once and for all. You can be administratively classified a deserter after being AWOL for 29 days. The following actions are considered to be legal evidence of desertion:
1) AWOL for over a year
2) attempting to throw away uniform or other military property
3) purchasing a ticket for a destination far away from your service post
4) if you stay near your service post, but don't turn yourself in (they have it both ways :-( )
5) voicing dissatisfaction with the military (isn't this just about anyone whose ever served?)
6) expressing a desire to desert (this can be especially damaging - don't ever actually say you intend to desert)
7) theft of money or civilian clothes to assist in getaway
8) visiting or trying to immigrate to another country
9) use of aliases or other attempts to conceal identity

next, defenses to Intent to Desert
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. part 2 - here's how to show you didn't intend to desert
1) previous excellent or long service (probably not going to apply to most of our guardsmen / reservist unfortunately)
2) under the influence of alchohol or drugs when you absented yourself and continued under their influence for some time thereafter (this is a weak defense, will be met with skepticism and will be tough to prove - but as a stalling tactic some of these guys might want to consider going on a bender right before they're supposed to return to duty)
3) retention of military ID, uniform, and records
4) doing something during the AWOL period that would indicate an intention to be somewhere locatable by authorities (examples: contacting a lawyer, staying with your family, etc.)
5) purchase of a one-way ticket back to service post
6) witnesses (including family members) testifying to your intentions to return
7) turning yourself in before arrested

up next: possible penalties for AWOL / Desertion
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. (possible) penalties for AWOL / Desertion
In "time of war" the punishment for desertion is theoretically death, but that penalty has not been sought since WWII.

For desertion, you can be sentenced to Dishonorable Discharge and 3 years confinement at hard labor, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

If desertion committed with intent to avoid hazardous duty to shirk important service, maximum confinement is 5 years

For AWOL, the following maximum penalties apply:
1) for a period of not more than 3 days: 1 month's confinement at hard labor, and forfeiture of 2/3rds pay per month for one month
2) 3 - 30 days absent: 6 months confinement, reduction to lowest enlisted grade and pay forfeitures
3) over 30 days: years confinement, reduction, and a DD

It's important to note that actual penalties applied have been much lower than the maximums provided by the UCMJ. More importantly, I think that most military courts would find sentencing a guardsman or reservist to be especially unpalatable
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I think the key words here are "in time of war"
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 10:55 AM by NNN0LHI
I believe that these words indicate that these penalties are applicable only during a state of declared war, which this country has not been in since 1945 when the last American soldier was shot for desertion. His name was Private Eddie D.Slovik and he was shot on January 31, 1045.

The lack of being in a state of declared war is what is accounts for the lighter penalties we have seen I think.

Don

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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. god lord, can you imagine the fallout if they executed some Guardsman?
I think that if we reach a critical mass of servicefolks who are willing to take the risk of the penalties, a large-scale desertion by reservists and guardsmen could trigger a devasting crisis for Bushco. Are they going to execute some math teacher from Kansas who signed on for one weekend a month and helping out with the occasional tornado aftermath or sentence him to 5 years hard labor. Hell, I'd rather be dropped off in a maximum security prison's exercise yard wearing a pink tutu than be the asshole who signs off on that prosecution.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. You put words together well n/t
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Good Point, Don
Also, aren't these points sort of valid as to whether or not we're 'at a state of war' (and don't mind me, I'm no military buff in any way)

1) Only congress has the authority to grant war powers. AFAIK, no war was declared by congress

2) Bush himself stood on the deck of an aircraft carrier a few months ago and said that the major fighting was over

3) Just because bush calls it a war doesn't mean it is. I'm sure someone could argue that we've not been acting war-like by dissing the Geneva Convention (they're not POW's, they're enemy combatants), etc....
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. You are right. Its not a war until Congress declares it as such
If Congress were to say no to Bushs requests for financing for the invasion and occupation it would be over with. Simple as that.

Don

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. Hey, northernsoul, thanks for this info!
Thanks for going to the trouble of digging that out. Interesting reading.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. glad to do what I can
this site recommended by Mari333 might be even more useful:

http://girights.objector.org/
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Nottingham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. I think Our troops are getting fed up!
:bounce: And I don't blame them! Me thinks the ARMY is going to have trouble recruiting!
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
9. Choices between Jail and Death in Iraq
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 09:52 AM by Mari333
Many will choose jail...and who can blame them???? It took everything we could do to keep my son from being sent over..enough is enough..these kids know that Bush's war was a lie from the start, and they are dying for NOTHING..
NOTHING....Good for these kids who say NO MORE

edit to add: GI rights hotline page

http://girights.objector.org/
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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. I am just remembering with a smile in 2000 how those absetee ballots
from those who serve in the military were the votes that were going to win the rethuglicans the election. Bushco. has really messed with BILL CLINTON'S FORCES! They are always saying "support the troops" well, it looks like we have to because they sure aren't!
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Maybe those who want AWOL . should file a lawsuit or something
against the pResident stating that if OUR LEADER can AWOL w/o penalty they should be able to as well?
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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. or, if they start enforcing the law, they should start at the top and
arrest the AWOL who became presidiot.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
13. I know the ACLU printed a Serviceman's Legal Guide
with advice on these kinds of issues. If you know a someone in uniform whose looking at their options, try to hunt this book down for them.
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NoKingGeorge Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. If Awol and desertion are crimes will Att. Gen act?
If deserting during time of war is a crime will Assman be made aware of it? And if he takes his focus off of bong sellers will he notice the bUsh name at the top of the list? Will Nofacts out an undercover deserter in the Government?
As a Patriot I will notify officials of a criminal in the WH.
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. it is a sticky wicket for them
Which is why I think that if enough servicepeople decide not to return to duty in Iraq, Bushco will be forced to choose between the politically unpalatable option of prosecuting and punishing them, or the militarily difficult option of letting them go. Either way, Rummy the Dummy is hosed if enough men and women in uniform are willing to take the risk.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Wouldn't it just be hilarious if THIS is the one thing that brings
*it down? The catch 22 of his past vs his present state of affairs affecting his furture!!
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RoonShark Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Punishing A Few
They won't have to crucify every AWOL; they just have to make a few of them an example for the rest. Commanders can choose between non-judicial punishment and court-martial. If absence without leave becomes a command-level problem, non-judicial punishment won't be offered.

Courts martial are military courts. They aren't likely to accept arguments about the purpose or conduct of the war. And they generally do what they understand is expected of them.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
28. They really think combat pay is an incentive?
Isn't it just a couple of hundred/mo? And weren't they going to TAKE IT AWAY until recent public outrage?

snip>
Military officials maintain that morale remains high among soldiers, who are paid more in combat zones, and that authorized leaves are being granted as "an investment in readiness."

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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. military pay no big loss for most enlisteds
I mean, it's better than nothing, but not by much
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peterh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
34. Headlines can certainly be deceiving.
I thought this article was going be about shrubs lack of intel.erintelligenceermental capacity
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. shoot, you might one day even be PRESIDENT!
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 12:21 PM by bpilgrim
take the rest of the 'war' off ;->
http://awolbush.com

peace
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Unknown Known Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
38. I guess the word's gotten out that they're really fighting for Halliburton
and not the U.S. :puke:
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Jeff in Cincinnati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. That would be the fun part of a prosecution
A defendant's lawyer might challenge the legality of the entire invasion. Call Rumsfeld as a material witness.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
46. YES!
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 04:22 PM by BeHereNow
No military=no hegemonic cabal!
A 75% increase in calls is a VERY good thing indeed!
They are tired of being abused and used in the name of
Halliburton/Bechtel/Exxon/ Mobil etc...

As I said before, they are our best and brightest,
therefore, it was only a matter of time before they
figured it out and said "NO."

I am so happy to read this report!

BHN
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evildoer Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
47. Maybe Bush & friends saw this coming
Maybe Bush & friends saw this coming and that's why they changed thier tune about outside help..
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
48. I predicted this in I think last week's Take Back the Media
Radio show -- that lots of these guys would end up with gunshot wounds to their feet. I've been drafted (USAF 1971) and have seen all this before..

It seems that it's time to use the BUSH defense for these guys, any lawyers out there? Great media fodder..

Speaking of Fodder, here's my ARMY OF ONE flash movie http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html

We just bought some footage today for the TV commercial version - anyone know how I can get ahold of the Cranberries?

Poor bastards, we need to run them over to Canada.
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MoonGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Plenty of contact information here...
http://www.cranberries.ie/nonflash/trivia/contact.html

I suppose you were probably hoping there was somebody who personally knew the band or their management, but unless they're big Bu$h fans or something (which I highly doubt), you'll probably be able to get their permission going through the normal channels.

Good luck! :)
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