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Dirty Hippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 07:40 AM
Original message
Test shows voter fraud is possible
All it takes is the right access.

Get that, and an election worker could manipulate voting results in the computers that read paper ballots - without leaving any digital fingerprints.

That was the verdict after Leon County Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho invited a team of researchers to look for holes in election software.

The group wasn't able to crack the Diebold system from outside the office. But, at the computer itself, they changed vote tallies, completely unrecorded.

...

Ion Sancho is a saint. He has been taking a bunch of shit from Jeb because of his opposition to Jeb's attempt to centralize control over the voting process in Florida.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/11811936.htm
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demosincebirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Fraud is possible?
Where in the hell have they been?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Establishing This Legally/Officially Is Important To Overcome Catch 22
where you can't inspect the machines after a vote unless there's proof of fraud... but you can't offer proof of fraud without inspecting the machines.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. So it ain't so Joe, please tell me those controlling the machines can't
manipulate the vote.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. You're kidding, right? The internal software and how it's been...
...programmed is the key. Votes can be switched by the a software sub-routine long after everyone has gone home for the evening.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Sadly few seem to care and the beat will go on and on until many do care
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. watch the framing
'voter fraud' is fraud by voters.
'election fraud' is the corruption and manipulation of the voting process itself.

The fascists are co-opting election fraud by re-framing it as voter fraud and using the issue to try and restrict voting by poor people, urban people, people of color, and any other group they can identify as solidly Democratic: in other words they are using the issue to foist even more election fraud on us.

Be careful, be vigilent. Reject the language of intolerance.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You have an excellent point, it's all about the framing!!!!
You caught it quicker than I did.
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. i looked for an e-mail address to point that very thing out to the writer.
maybe i didn't look deep enough but couldn't find one...

anyone in Talahasee want write them and point this out?
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cosmicdot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. email addresses
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Everyone here needs to send an e-mail and ask them to correct
the terminology from "voter fraud" to "election fraud". And :hi: while we're at it, let's thank them for reporting what several million people already know, and tell them we wish the REST of the media would finally get a clue (or stop covering for the thieves!)!

This issue is THE KEY to everything that's going on in America right now.


:applause: Thanks, Cosmicdot, for providing the link! :loveya:



:kick: :kick: :kick:
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. ELECTION FRAUD! ELECTION FRAUD!
You took the words out of my mouth.

Voter fraud is Republican distraction language. They want us to worry about one husband who voted for his wife or whatever, while the electronic machinery has holes wide enough to drive trucks/armies/whole countries through.

It's like how they complain that one poor single mom on food stamps is driving a Cadillac, when the military and its contractors can't account for billions of dollars. They want to talk about "welfare fraud" when the real welfare is to the military and its contractors, and the real fraud is so large that we truly have a hard time imagining its scale.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. exakitakly
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. ding ding ding!!!
It IS ELECTION FRAUD!!!!
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. Where's Faye when you need her. It's election fraud, voter fraud would
imply it is the fault of the voter.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I was thinking the very same thing!
She was so hardcore about that - and she is exactly right. She still pops in once in a while to school people on that. :)
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. lol! Faye's Legacy!
I was a newbie, but she got it drilled thru my head. I'm glad to hear she's still popping in.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. kick n/t
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. Oh, what a relief! To see that ...
what we've seen occur is indeed possible. I had been afraid that it had just been a series of miracles. ;-)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
11. The only reason to use electronic voting devices is top be able
to manipulate the results of an election without getting caught at it, with the exception that these devices often make it convenient for persons with disabilities to vote.

Thank you for posting this. :hi:
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is a Good Step
but possession of the machines is essential. If there are no digital fingerprints, perhaps there are actual fingerprints. Or some other way of demonstrating whether the machines were physically tampered with.

The only way to still have a chance at this is to (1) define in advance very specific tests that could prove tampering and (2) define a legal strategy to get the machines examined. It's an uphill climb, but specific demonstrations like this are essential.

The legal strategy is the key. Are there any sympathetic people on the local level who could allow access to machines? Are the machines are taken back to some central location? Are any of them still connected to the internet where they could be accessed by sympathetic hackers (probably not)? Access is the question, and the usual channels are not working.
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dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. "Test shows voter fraud is possible"
Machines are vulnerable to manipulation
By Tony Bridges, Tallahassee.Com
6/4/05

"All it takes is the right access.

Get that, and an election worker could manipulate voting results in the computers that read paper ballots - without leaving any digital fingerprints. That was the verdict after Leon County Elections Supervisor Ion Sancho invited a team of researchers to look for holes in election software."

<snip>

"After that, the security experts accomplished two things that should not have been possible. They made 65,000 votes disappear simply by changing the real memory card - which stores the numbers - for one that had been altered."

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/11811936.htm
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I know, but
there are always people who are still in the dark.

(But are you sure the pope is a catholic??)

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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. read the article, it wasn't quite that easy and the source for the story?
bbv.org
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Here is more:
"Sancho figured Leon County's security could withstand just about any sort of probing and wanted to prove it.

-snip-
So the task was simple. Get in, tamper with vote numbers, and get out clean.

They made their first attempts from outside the building. No success.

Then, they sat down at the vote-counting computers, the sort of access to the machines an employee might have. For the crackers, security protocols were no problem, passwords unnecessary.

They simply went around them.

After that, the security experts accomplished two things that should not have been possible.

They made 65,000 votes disappear simply by changing the real memory card - which stores the numbers - for one that had been altered.

And, while the software is supposed to create a record whenever someone makes changes to data stored in the system, it showed no evidence they'd managed to access and change information."

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dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. BBV question
So is ANY news stemming from BBV to be discredited?
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Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Thats not voter fraud..........
Thats ELECTION FRAUD...........................spread the word
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TexasLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
24. WOW-- A must read!!!
Election fraud is real and it has been happening. It is one of the most grotesque crimes imaginable.

If Democracy is going to survive, this country needs to put effective measures in place to control vote tampering.
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tallahasseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. Isnt this great?!?!
I didnt see this post before I posted the article this afternoon. I cannot believe that this was actually on the front page of the paper!
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retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Ion Sancho is a great Elections Supervisor. He will stay on this thing.
*
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
27. I think I need to write Sancho.
See if he'll talk to my SOE who naively has complete confidence in electronic voting.
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retread Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I'm sure you'll get a response. Ion Sancho LOVES to talk! Fair elections
Edited on Sat Jun-04-05 03:46 PM by retread
are a passion of his.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. Shouldn't this be sent far and wide to all the election supervisors who
think there is no way anything like this could ever happen?

Do all the voting machine companies get access to the machines on election day and night so it isn't just the election officials who are a security risk? I thought they often retrieved the information from the machines.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
34. From SoE website
http://www.leonfl.org/elect/SpecialReport.htm

Special Report: Black Box Voting Attempts to Penetrate The Leon County Florida Optical Scan Voting System.

In January of this year Leon County Supervisor of Elections Ion Sancho was contacted by representatives of Black Box Voting .org, a non-partisan elections advocacy group, to see if their computer experts could successfully circumvent the security of the Leon County voting system. Supervisor Sancho agreed to this proposal and in three separate attempts over a four month period, computer experts Dr. Herbert Thompson and Harri Hursti visited the Leon County Elections Office in their efforts to penetrate the county voting tabulation equipment and alter election data.

The tests focused on two areas: outside or external hacks, specifically examining the modem and any lines going to the vote tabulation computer, and simulated inside or internal penetrations. The results were clear. No outside hack was accomplished. This was not the case however when the hacker was physically present at the vote tabulation computer terminal.

Granted the same access as an employee of our office, it was possible enter the computer, alter election results, and exit the system without leaving any physical record of this action. It was also demonstrated that false information or instructions could be placed on a memory card (the device used to program the individual voting machines and record the voter?s votes) and create false results or election reports.

What conclusions can be drawn from this exercise? First, the optical scan voting system was resistant to external penetration, including using the modems which transmit election results from the precincts to the central vote accumulator. Outside hacking is seen as one of the greatest potential threats to undermining citizen confidence in the election process. The Leon County Supervisor of Elections was tremendously relieved that such penetration was not accomplished.

Secondly, the potential for internal sabotage does exist. It is imperative that security protocols be developed which limit access to the central voting computer and memory cards in election offices. Limited access, video surveillance, and tight controls on the use and distribution of memory cards, all practices currently in place in the Leon County Election Office, are vital to ensure unauthorized actions do not compromise the integrity of the elections process.

Finally, the ultimate insurance that Leon County?s votes are counted correctly resides in the paper ballots of the voters themselves. If the public or election official has any question over the results of an election, a hand count of the optical paper ballot provides the truth. No internal manipulation of any computer or memory card can alter the votes on these paper ballots.

Based upon the data developed out of this exercise it is the opinion of the Leon County Supervisor of Election of Leon County that any effort to limit or remove the manual examination of paper ballots to confirm the correctness of election results is not in the public interest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
35. Yes it was stolen it was obvious especially without a paper trail!!!
Whats going to happen is America will find out the elections were stolen and we will have 8 years of Dictatorship before its discovered!!!
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. BIGASS KICK
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. Can you change that to "Voter Fraud WAS Possible"

and it worked in 2004.
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