African leaders meet on Sudan. Want no outside help.

[applegrove]

http://www.aliant.net/webmail/en/

African leaders reject foreign troops for Darfur
Last Updated Wed, 18 May 2005 11:24:42

TRIPOLI, LIBYA - The leaders of seven African countries say no troops from outside the continent should be allowed to intervene in Sudan's Darfur region, throwing cold water on Canada's offer of 100 military advisers.


INDEPTH: Sudan

The leaders of Egypt, Libya, Chad, Nigeria, Sudan, Gabon and Eritrea issued a statement to that effect on Tuesday, after two days of meetings in Libya.

<SKIP>

Written by CBC News Online staff

[TreasonousBastard]

1. Not the best examples of African leadership...

Where's Kenya and Uganda? South Africa?

And Sudan itself is on the list?

[applegrove]

2. Sudan's not the best example of leadership either. I guess they

have to go with Muslim troops.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. The countries on the list are all heavily Muslim...

which says a lot.

[DulceDecorum]

7. At least, no-one has accused THEM of toiletting bibles.

What the HELL do you mean by insulting the faith of the people of those nations?

[TreasonousBastard]

14. Don't go there...

The reigning power in Sudan is Muslim, and Muslim/Christian, Muslim/Animist, even Muslim/Muslim, wars have been going on for years in Africa since it stopped being a Cold War pawn.

Other Muslim states supporting the Sudanese government for their own internal reasons is not inconceivable. Quite to be expected, actually.

And, as for this and the rest of your comments, if you a chip on your shoulder for some reason, I have no further interest in discussing this.

[DulceDecorum]

15. "Don't got there" is precisely what the African Union is saying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1786001&mesg_id=1786001&page=

TreasonousBastard says:
...I have no further interest in discussing this.

Good.
I repect your decision.
:hi:

[Adelante]

28. Ah, a bible has never been desecrated by a Muslim

And you know this how?

Nobody in this thread is insulting people of faith but you.

The victims in Darfur is who we are supporting -- THE VICTIMS IN DARFUR ARE MUSLIM.

You take any cheap opportunity to distort and mislead readers of DU.

But there is no stopping you. We can only try to correct the effectiveness of your little disinformation campaign. We will do our best for the victims of this genocidal regime in Khartoum.

[DulceDecorum]

31. Nobody in this thread is insulting people of faith but you.

Do you have ANY evidence of Muslims descerating bibles?
because I am more than willing to present evidence of so-called Christian soldiers desecrating the Koran.

When all is said and done,
the people of the Sudan have ALL collectively agreed that they do NOT want non-African intervention into Darfur.

I am sorry that this offends you.

[DulceDecorum]

5. United States, Italy, Canada, Belgium, Pakistan and counting...

Kyle Brown was a peacekeeper, an elite Canadian paratrooper sent to Somalia on a U.S.-led mission. Part of his job was to help the starving people of Somalia.
But Brown says that when desperate Somalis tried to steal their food, some peacekeepers in his unit turned violent. “That seemed to be the only language that they understood, violence. You know, these people lived and died by violence,” he says.
Brown also says his commanders had issued orders to “rough up” the locals — even had the soldiers set out food and water for “bait” to lure hungry Somalis into shooting range.
Lea Thompson: “You used the term ‘turkey shoot.’”
Kyle Brown: ”Yes. These Somalis were being hunted by these men. I remember hearing the troops yell ‘I got one!’”
<snip>
In all, more than 80 soldiers heard the boy’s screams, and no one came to his rescue.
But peacekeeper Brown did pull out his camera and take pictures. He says it was his corporal’s idea.
A medic later found cigarette burns on the teenager’s feet and genitals and evidence that he was raped with the peacekeepers’ baton. After hours of torture, the boy finally died.
<snip>
After “Dateline” began asking questions, the U.N. told us it will now try to start keeping a record of crimes by its peacekeepers. Incidentally, “Dateline” got a first-hand look at how dangerous these missions can be: Barely 24 hours after arriving in Haiti, correspondent Lea Thompson and our staff were car-jacked at gunpoint and robbed. Most of their camera equipment, tapes and notes were taken.
They had to leave the country with an armed escort from the U.S. embassy after officials told us it was too dangerous to stay. The embassy told us someone didn’t want “Dateline” to report a story, criticizing officials there.
http://www.freedomdomain.com/un/disturbpeace.html

WORD.

[applegrove]

16. I read last night that it is the more African looking villages that are

being targeted. Even though they are all Muslim. So this does call for countries that have a strong 'African looking' element in the troops. Many, many African countries have that mix. Lybia - I think not, but all the countries that border on the south side of the Sahara.

Apparently the victims want to see White people as peace-keepers. They trust them to not take sides (or bribes) more. They claim the African troops are too easy to bribe. I don't know if the AU troops have that reputation or just the older version of African troops. As bribery has been endemic in all of Africa for eons.

Everyone should read that article if they have not:

THE NEW YORKER
FACT
Dying in Darfur
by Samantha Power

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040830fa_fact1

[DulceDecorum]

19. AFRICA is FILLED to the BRIM with BLACKS

This whole color/race crap is just that
CRAP.

It is not like the US where you have separate nationalities living in separate neighborhoods. No Little Italy or Chinatown there.
Think of hair color in the US. It is not uncommon to find a blonde, a brunette and a redhead all in the same family.
Nor is it uncommon for each member of one single family to each have a different eye color.
As a matter of fact, most people reading this are now going to stop and do a count of hair and eye colors of the immediate relatives to see where they fit in.
In the same way, hardly anyone on the entire continent cares much about skin color or how curly one's hair is. Only white people notice or care about or tell lies about THAT. Most Africans don't give a damn. Asians also run the gamut from very pale to very dark skin. But how often do you hear THAT fact as being a political motivator?
That "sub-Saharan" designation is a colonial throwback and is only ever used by those who are interested in stealing Africa's minerals.

applegrove says:
Apparently the victims want to see White people as peace-keepers. They trust them to not take sides (or bribes) more.

With all due respect sir, that is like saying that Sitting Bull would prefer to negotiate with Custer rather than his own people.
Africans have expended a LOT of time and energy kicking white people out of Africa.
Why the hell would they EVER ask them to come back in?

READ THIS before answering that question.

Tuesday, 24 September, 2002, 13:00 GMT 14:00 UK
The executioner's tale
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2278215.stm
And this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/191310.stm

applegrove says:
They claim the African troops are too easy to bribe. I don't know if the AU troops have that reputation or just the older version of African troops. As bribery has been endemic in all of Africa for eons.
I defy you to substantiate that allegation.

You slander the African Union and piss on the United Nations.

Meanwhile, the Coalition Provisional Authority, which we ran, has lost 8.8 billion dollars. By lost, I mean it’s totally unaccounted for. Not only has Congress not "looked into" this $8.8 billion and who might have it now, but it seems that some members are completely unaware that this staggering sum, which was supposed to go toward rebuilding Iraq, is missing. The Sunday morning after the White House Correspondents dinner, I ran into Senator George Allen at a brunch thrown by John McLaughlin and his wife. Allen had never heard of the missing $8.8 billion, or at least that's what he told me. And he's on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/al-franken/what-in-godas-name-is-g_1221.html

The US and the UK continued with slavery LONG after everyone else in the world had declared it illegal. The US and the UK register, fund and support mercenaries and "pre-emptive strikes." The US and UK are UNIVERSALLY hated and distrusted.

Samantha Powers is no better than Judith Miller or Rita Katz.
Or Jumana Michael Hanna.

Source: Esquire, January 2005
"In all of Iraq, Jumana Hanna was the bravest witness to the horror of Saddam's regime, telling the Americans of torture, rape, and mass murder," writes Sara Solovitch. Paul Wolfowitz recounted her story to the Senate Foreign Relations Commitee. Her suffering was described in agonizing detail in a Washington Post story by Peter Finn. But when Solovitch signed on to write a book about Hanna, she discovered that her story was fiction. The woman lionized as a brave survivor of Saddam Hussein's prisons was apparently a homeless prostitute who successfully scammed U.S. officials into giving her a new life in the United States. "Far from being a story about the indomitability of the human spirit," Solovitch realized, "Hanna's tale now seemed to open a window on the coalition's naivete - the willingness of its leaders to believe almost anything that fit their agenda." (Faced with Solovitch's revelations, the Washington Post has retracted its original story.)
http://www.prwatch.org/taxonomy/term/86?from=10

[applegrove]

21. The color thing is not crap.

This whole color/race crap is just that
CRAP.

It is not like the US where you have separate nationalities living in separate neighborhoods. No Little Italy or Chinatown there.
Think of hair color in the US. It is not uncommon to find a blonde, a brunette and a redhead all in the same family.
Nor is it uncommon for each member of one single family to each have a different eye color.
As a matter of fact, most people reading this are now going to stop and do a count of hair and eye colors of the immediate relatives to see where they fit in.
In the same way, hardly anyone on the entire continent cares much about skin color or how curly one's hair is. Only white people notice or care about or tell lies about THAT. Most Africans don't give a damn. Asians also run the gamut from very pale to very dark skin. But how often do you hear THAT fact as being a political motivator?
That "sub-Saharan" designation is a colonial throwback and is only ever used by those who are interested in stealing Africa's minerals.Buddy the people whose huts are being burnt and whose families are being killed are those designated as the blacker of the Muslims. There is racial strife all over Africa - though the things that differenciat people may be much more subtle than you talk about and may have nothing to do with 'perceived race' from loyalties..religious or otherwise. Ever heard of Rawanda? The Biafran Civil War? Violence in Chad? There are issues. For sure the basis of most of it is colonialism. Nevertheless - there is racial strife in everywhere in the world..including Asia, South America, the USA, Europe, Russia, and AFRICA!

applegrove says:
Apparently the victims want to see White people as peace-keepers. They trust them to not take sides (or bribes) more.

With all due respect sir, that is like saying that Sitting Bull would prefer to negotiate with Custer rather than his own people.
Africans have expended a LOT of time and energy kicking white people out of Africa.
Why the hell would they EVER ask them to come back in?Because the peacekeepers have a reputation for doing a great job and not taking sides (how could they..they don't belong there)(I don't know why - I'm Canadian and we certainly have a big black eye with peacekeepers in Somalia). Because, as the Darfurian says in the article, they feel the black peacekeepers are vulnerable to bribes. Ask the guy yourself..or read the article. Do you want me to send you to a petition whose organizing members are mostly African intellectuals?

READ THIS before answering that question.

Tuesday, 24 September, 2002, 13:00 GMT 14:00 UK
The executioner's tale
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2278215.stm
And this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/191310.stm

applegrove says:
They claim the African troops are too easy to bribe. I don't know if the AU troops have that reputation or just the older version of African troops. As bribery has been endemic in all of Africa for eons.
I defy you to substantiate that allegation.I'm quoting a person quoted in the article!. And yes - bribery has been a problem in Africa. Ever been to Zaire under Moboto? If the police stopped you, you had to pay whatever fine they asked for..right there and then! It happens.

You slander the African Union and piss on the United Nations. I quoted someone who was a victim at Darfur and slamed the AU peacekeepers .. or his perception of them. As to the UN, I spend most of last evening defending their ability to walk into countries and help them out.

Meanwhile, the Coalition Provisional Authority, which we ran, has lost 8.8 billion dollars. By lost, I mean it’s totally unaccounted for. Not only has Congress not "looked into" this $8.8 billion and who might have it now, but it seems that some members are completely unaware that this staggering sum, which was supposed to go toward rebuilding Iraq, is missing. The Sunday morning after the White House Correspondents dinner, I ran into Senator George Allen at a brunch thrown by John McLaughlin and his wife. Allen had never heard of the missing $8.8 billion, or at least that's what he told me. And he's on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.Let's stick to Darfur .. Iraq gets so much attention on this board. Darfur is what this thread is about.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/al-franke...

The US and the UK continued with slavery LONG after everyone else in the world had declared it illegal. The US and the UK register, fund and support mercenaries and "pre-emptive strikes." The US and UK are UNIVERSALLY hated and distrusted. this is a thread on DARFUR! Why are you highjacking it to talk about the freaking bad American invasion of Iraq?

Samantha Powers is no better than Judith Miller or Rita Katz.
Or Jumana Michael Hanna.Samantha Power has written not just an article but a whole book on the ethnic cleansing in Darfur. And she has made a great case for that.

Source: Esquire, January 2005
"In all of Iraq, Jumana Hanna was the bravest witness to the horror of Saddam's regime, telling the Americans of torture, rape, and mass murder," writes Sara Solovitch. Paul Wolfowitz recounted her story to the Senate Foreign Relations Commitee. Her suffering was described in agonizing detail in a Washington Post story by Peter Finn. But when Solovitch signed on to write a book about Hanna, she discovered that her story was fiction. The woman lionized as a brave survivor of Saddam Hussein's prisons was apparently a homeless prostitute who successfully scammed U.S. officials into giving her a new life in the United States. "Far from being a story about the indomitability of the human spirit," Solovitch realized, "Hanna's tale now seemed to open a window on the coalition's naivete - the willingness of its leaders to believe almost anything that fit their agenda." (Faced with Solovitch's revelations, the Washington Post has retracted its original story.)
http://www.prwatch.org/taxonomy/term/86?from=10 we know the neocons were drinking jungle juice on Iraq. They were getting fed what they wanted to hear. Meanwhile..the UN could have gone in on the starvation, UN laws smeared, draining of farmland of 1 Million,people living under a psychopath for 20 years, and a host of other things.

VISIT: http://team8plus.org/news.php

[DulceDecorum]

24. How the Media Distorts Africa

Posted to the web May 17, 2005
As I interviewed successful entrepreneurs, I was continually astounded by their ingenuity, creativity and steadfastness. These people are the future of the continent. They are the ones we should be talking to about how to move Africa forward. Instead, the media concentrates on victims or government officials, and as anyone who has worked in Africa knows, government is more often a part of the problem than of the solution.
When the foreign media descend on the latest crisis, the person they look to interview is invariably the foreign savior, an aid worker from the United States or Europe. African saviors are everywhere, delivering aid on the ground. But they do not seem to be in our cultural belief system. It is not just the media, either. Look at the literature put out by almost any nongovernmental organisation. The better ones show images of smiling African children -- smiling because they have been helped by the NGO. The worst promote the extended-belly, flies-on-the-face cliche of Africa, hoping that the pain of seeing those images will fill their coffers. "We hawk poverty," one NGO worker admitted to me.
A recent episode of the popular NBC drama "Medical Investigation" was about an anthrax scare in Philadelphia. The source of the deadly spores? Some illegal immigrants from Africa playing their drums in a local market, unknowingly infecting innocent passersby. Typical: If it is a deadly disease, the scriptwriters make it come from Africa.
Most of the time, Africa is simply not on the map. The continent's booming stock markets are almost never mentioned in newspaper financial pages.
Most of the time, Africa is simply not on the map. The continent's booming stock markets are almost never mentioned in newspaper financial pages.
Even the listing of worldwide weather includes only a few African cities.
The result of this portrait is an Africa we cannot relate to.
http://allafrica.com/stories/200505170998.html

Thu May 12, 2005 3:02 PM GMT+02:00
Donors meeting in Oslo last month pledged $4.5 billion for 2005-07 to fund projects in the south following the peace deal between rebels and the Khartoum government, although a separate civil war in Sudan's western Darfur region is still unresolved.
Southern Sudan has oilfields whose revenue is to be shared with the government under their peace deal, although the conference was attended mainly by firms in non-oil sectors.
Kenya, which hosted peace talks that led to January's agreement, is particularly keen to beat South African rivals in the race for opportunities in southern Sudan and aims to build a railway to connect its neighbour to its Mombasa port.
Sudan's former rebels also want investors to construct an oil pipeline to Mombasa that would allow them to export crude without relying on cooperation with the northern government.
http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/esdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=12&msg=1115964794

Normally I do not offer much about my private life, but today I am going to share the fact that Wangari Maathai, the determined Kenyan woman who won the 2004 Nobel Peace Prize, has long been a personal friend of the DulceDecorum family.

Thursday, May 12, 2005; Page A21
When I asked her about the troubled Darfur region of Sudan, Maathai argued that it is not only possible for Africans to take the lead in resolving that humanitarian crisis but essential for them to do so.
"Darfur is an example of a situation where a dire scarcity of natural resources is manipulated by politicians for their own ambition. To outsiders, the conflict is seen as tribal warfare. At its roots, though, it is a struggle over controlling an environment that can no longer support all the people who must live on it," Maathai said.
"You must not deal only with the symptoms. You have to get to the root causes by promoting environmental rehabilitation and empowering people to do things for themselves. What is done for the people without involving them cannot be sustained."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/11/AR2005051101765.html

I cannot understand WHY some people are SO determined to undermine the people of Darfur.
This is an African problem. Africans are solving it.
Why then, is there much handwringing and lachrymose moisture across the US judeo-christian landscape?
It must be a Schiavo thing. Which would explain why I do not understand it.

[DulceDecorum]

6. The African Union has SPOKEN. NO killer troops allowed.

Posted to the web on: 18 May 2005
The Darfur conflict broke out in February 2003 after rebels took up arms against the Arabdominated government. Khartoum is accused of retaliating by arming local Arab militia, who burned down villages and murdered and raped civilians.
The AU has insisted, along with the Sudanese government, that it does not need the presence of western peacekeepers.
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A46132

OTTAWA, May 17 2005 (Xinhuanet) -- Canada will respect the will of the Sudanese government and not send its troops into the ravaged Sudanese region of Darfur, it is reported here Tuesday.
The Canadian government last week announced an aid package of 170 million Canadian dollars (140 million US dollars) for the peacekeeping in Sudan's Darfur region. But along with the aid package, the Canadian government also announced a plan to send 100 troops to the region.
In response to the Canadian plan, Sudan's ambassador to Canada, Faiza Hassan Taha, said her country will not allow Western peacekeeping troops into Darfur. Taha also criticized Ottawa's announcement, which she said was done without proper consultations.
Canadian Defence Minister Bill Graham Monday said, " as much as we would like to be helpful in terms of action on the ground, it's clear the United Nations has authorized the African Union to do this mission, and the African Union and the Sudanese have told us: No European, no non-African troops. "
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-05/18/content_2968588.htm

[TreasonousBastard]

8. It would be nice if...

the AU forces promised would actually be doing something in there. 200 can't do squat.

So, it's the full AU that refuses outside troops. OK, it's good for Africa to police itself. They are, of course, taking up offers for money and logistical support from the EU, and anyone else who ponies up.

It all makes sense, if they would actually get in there and do something.

[DulceDecorum]

10. At least the African Union won't TORTURE and MAIM people

in the manner in which the certain other nations are in the habit of doing.

You seem to have little if any respect for the people of Africa.
Why is that?
And WHY do you care so much about Darfur?

[DulceDecorum]

12. Re: get in there and do something

May 19, 2005 4:05 AM
The government-sponsored initiative is still in its early stages but has been welcomed in both Arab and non-Arab villages in Hilal's home region of northern Darfur.
"We need to repair our home from within," Hilal said. "This is something only the sons of Darfur can do."
<snip>
He says Darfur rebels and the government need a political solution to the conflict, using the route of African Union- sponsored talks. But, he says, the tribal leadership could help end the banditry and other violence in Darfur by identifying and capturing those responsible.
He sings along to the music of his favourite artist, the leftist Sudanese Nubian Mohamed Wardy, whom he calls a great nationalist: "The homeland is expensive. You can go and buy gold from the market, but you cannot buy a homeland."
Hilal, who thinks he would have gone to university had he not become sheikh, says he is keen to learn English and understand more about the world. But he dislikes the United States, which he sees as controlling the United Nations and global politics.
"International law is just practised against small and weak states. But we are not weak in Sudan -- let them try to come and we will show them," he declared.
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5797412&cKey=1116468328000

Compare and contrast.

As the United States poured in more than $50 million of arms annually to prop up the Barre regime, there was virtually no assistance offered that would have helped build a selfsustaining economy which could feed Somalia's people. In addition, the United States pushed a structural adjustment program through the International Monetary Fund which severely weakened the local agricultural economy.Combined with the breakdown of the central government, drought conditions and rival militias disrupting food supplies, there was famine on a massive scale, resulting in the deaths of more than 300,000 Somalis, mostly children.

In November 1992, the outgoing Bush administration sent 30,000 U.S. troops, primarily Marines and Army Rangers, to Somalia in what was described as a humanitarian mission to assist in the distribution of relief supplies which were being intercepted by armed militias without reaching the civilian population in need. The United Nations Security Council endorsed the initiative the following month. Many Somalis and some relief organizations were grateful for the American role. Many others expressed skepticism, noting that the famine had actually peaked that summer and the security situation was also improving gradually. At this point, the chaos limiting food shipments was limited to a small area; most areas functioned as relatively peaceful fiefdoms. Most food was getting through and the loss from theft was only slightly higher than elsewhere in Africa. In some cases, U.S. forces essentially dumped food on local markets, hurting indigenous farmers and creating greater food shortages over the longer term. In any case, few Somalis were involved in the decisions during this crucial period.

Most importantly for the United States, large numbers of Somalis saw the American forces as representatives of the government which served as the major Western supporter of the hated former dictatorship. Such an overbearing foreign military presence in a country which had been free from colonial rule for only a little more than three decades led to growing resentment, particularly since these elite combat forces were not trained for such humanitarian missions. (Author and journalist David Halberstam quotes ]the U.S. Secretary of Defense telling an associate, "We're sending the Rangers to Somalia. We are not going to be able to control them. They are like overtrained pit bulls. No one controls them.") Shootings at U.S. military roadblocks became increasingly commonplace and Somalis witnessed scenes of mostly white American forces harassing and shooting their black countrymen.

In addition, the U.S. role escalated to include attempts at disarming some of the war lords, resulting in armed engagements, often in crowded urban neighborhoods. This "mission creep" resulted in American casualties, creating growing dissent at home in what had originally been a widely-supported foreign policy initiative. The thousands of M16 rifles sent, courtesy of the American taxpayer, to Barre's armed forces were now in the hands of rival militiamen who had not only used them to kill their fellow countrymen and to disrupt the distribution of relief supplies, but were now using them against American troops It wasn't long before the slogan of American forces was "The only good Somali is a dead Somali." It had become apparent that the U.S. had badly underestimated the resistance.
http://www.context.co.nz:8080/stories/storyReader$1479

It wasn't long before the slogan of American forces was
THE ONLY GOOD SOMALI IS A DEAD SOMALI.
Just think about that for a while.

[Adelante]

26. Hilal? This Hilal?

From your link:

"Rights groups accuse him of being the top coordinator for recruiting the feared Arab militias and cite eyewitness reports placing him at the scene of at least one battle during the conflict.

They say he no longer directly leads the militias drawn from the tribes, but that he surely still had an influence over them.

"I suspect that his role has diminished because he's too notorious and well-known now, but I'm sure that he still has some level of influence," said Leslie Lefkow, a researcher for Human Rights Watch.

Last week, a senior U.N. official said Arab fighters are still targeting civilians in Darfur and that rape, kidnapping and banditry increased in April."

That would be April 2005, last month.



From Human Rights Watch:

Darfur: Militia Leader Implicates Khartoum

Janjaweed Chief Says Sudan Government Backed Attacks
French German Spanish Arabic

A top militia leader says the Sudan government backed and directed Janjaweed activities in northern Darfur.

Widely regarded as the top Janjaweed leader in Darfur, Musa Hilal was interviewed over the course of several hours by Human Rights Watch researchers in Khartoum.

Hilal states that the government of Sudan directed all military activities of the militia forces he had recruited. “All of the people in the field are led by top army commanders,” he told Human Rights Watch on videotape. “…These people get their orders from the Western command center, and from Khartoum.”

-snip-

Many witnesses in Kebkabiya told Human Rights Watch about the location and activities of Musa Hilal’s forces. They reported that Misteriya town is the location of Hilal’s militia camp near Kebkabiya, where he and Hassim Mangari of the Sudan army are commanders. Musa Hilal is known for taking women prisoners and holding them at Jebel Jur (meaning “hunger mountain”) west of Misteriya. Many of the women have not returned to date.

Some witnesses spoke of militia members who committed atrocities in the name of Musa Hilal. Others said that their former Arab neighbors and Janjaweed militia prevented them from returning to their fertile farming land outside Kebkabiya: one group of women trying to return in Merguba, outside of Kebkabiya and two and a half hours from Misteriya by donkey, were told by their former Arab neighbors, ‘This is the land of Musa Hilal. You must not go and take anything from there.’

-snip-

http://hrw.org/video/2005/musa/

Hilal has his public relations talent, but he's still a murderous bastard.

[DulceDecorum]

29. Yup, THAT Hilal.

Hilal, who heads Darfur's largest Arab tribe, has been in the capital Khartoum for nine months for talks to try to heal a rebellion that is well into its third year by mostly non-Arab rebels against the central government.
He is now back home, not riding a horse or a camel, but in a white land cruiser, saying he wants to promote peace and reconciliation between all tribes throughout the troubled remote west.
The government-sponsored initiative is still in its early stages but has been welcomed in both Arab and non-Arab villages in Hilal's home region of northern Darfur.
"We need to repair our home from within," Hilal said. "This is something only the sons of Darfur can do."
http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=5797412&cKey=1116468328000

He says he wants peace.
And much as you do not like digressions from Darfur,
I must add that he does not appear to have the anywhere nearly as brutal a record as Rashid Dostum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4308683.stm
The point I am making is this,
if Dostum can be found acceptable, then why not Musa Hilal?

[daleo]

4. This could make or break a Canadian election

An independent MP who potentially could bring down the government tomorrow has made a demand for military aid to Darfur (including Canadian troops), as a condition of supporting the government in a confidence vote. This news may convince him to support the government. It is an interesting development from that point of view for Canadians.

[DulceDecorum]

9. Military aid to Darfur is illegal under international law.

And especially after an ENTIRE CONTINENT
plus the UNITED NATIONS
have BOTH specifically rejected it.

....This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.
The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

UN Resolution 1590
7. Emphasizes that there can be no military solution to the conflict in Darfur,
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/sudan/2005/pkgres1590.htm

UN Resolution 1591
2. Emphasizes that there can be no military solution to the conflict in Darfur,
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/sudan/2005/sancres1591.htm

Paul Martin can shut his pie-hole.
He has no authority whatsoever to decide the destiny of the Sudan.

[daleo]

11. Invading Iraq was illegal under international law too.

However, I doubt Martin would attempt to send troops to Sudan now, regardless of the pressure David Kilgour puts him under - Kilgour is the independent MP that might bring down the government over this. He means well, and is genuinely concerned I think, but doesn't appreciate the political undercurrents of putting western troops in Africa.

I am hoping that this will convince Kilgour of the futility of these demands, and that he will correspondingly support the government in the confidence motion.

[DulceDecorum]

13. I do hope

that you are correct.
:pals:

[daleo]

18. Well, Kilgour didn't support the government.

But the vote was tied, and the Speaker of the House went with the Liberals (he is a Liberal anyway). So, Kilgour's influence seems to be over for the moment, and Martin is not crazy enough to send troops somewhere that they have specifically been asked not to go. As you say, that would be an invasion, something Canada has neither the means nor inclination to carry out (I hope so anyway, although the sending of Canadian troops to Haiti does strike a discordant not in all this).:beer:

[DulceDecorum]

20. Whew

Peace has broken out.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200505190087.html

[applegrove]

22. I take it you think there should be no 170 Million of Aid going to Darfur

either?

[DulceDecorum]

23. Investment or aid?

May 19 2005 at 10:49AM
In January this year, the government and SPLM/A signed a peace accord that ended 21 years of conflict that was sparked in 1983 when southern rebels took up arms to end years of marginalisation by successive Islamic governments in Khartoum.
The war claimed at least 1,5 million lives and displaced more than four million others, some of them fleeing to neighbouring nations.
"It is now time for peace in Sudan," Hamid said.
Buoyed by peace in south Sudan, western lenders in April pledged $4,5-billion (about R30-billion) for the next three years, far more than what they were asked for, to rebuild Sudan's pacified southern and northern areas.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=136&art_id=qw111649248235B235

Posted to the web May 19, 2005
Giving further insight into the summit in Libya, which ran into the early hours of yesterday, Oyo said "happily, the meeting ended with several decisions. The first is that an all-stakeholders meeting will begin at the end of this month in Abuja.
"It is expected to be the end of all meetings on the Darfur crisis, so that all of the agreements taken are redefined and could be made into a comprehensive peace agreement."
Oyo said "the other thing is that the El-Bashir gave an undertaking that the next meeting of Heads of State would be called a meeting of celebration. A meeting that would be called to celebrate the peace that would have returned to Darfur".
She said "the leaders in attendance also expressed their confidence in Obasanjo's leadership, as Chairman of the African Union and in the fact that Africa can find solutions to its problems and therefore, rejected interference."
http://allafrica.com/stories/200505190087.html

09 January 2005
Bush, Powell Praise Sudan Peace Accord, Urge Swift Implementation
Following are the texts of Bush's and Powell's statements:
http://www.usembassy.org.uk/forpo640.html

NAIROBI, May 19 (AFP) -- Kenya will send 842 troops to a UN peacekeeping force being deployed in southern Sudan to back a January peace deal which ended more than two decades of civil war, the national security minister said on Thursday.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/VBOL-6CJFU7?OpenDocument

[DulceDecorum]

17. ... kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.

05/19/2005
Corzine and Rep. Donald Payne, D-10, spoke to the congregation of the United Methodist Church in Chatham as part of an effort by the N.J. Coalition of Religious Leaders and the N.J. Council of Churches to increase area awareness of an ongoing genocide that has already claimed the lives of thousands.
<snip>
Rev. Pastor Paul Maliel of the United Methodist Church began with a sermon targeting complacency. .... He pleaded with the congregation to see the mission of ending genocide in Darfur as a vital part of being a true church. ....
The senator was up next.
“Good morning, Church,” Corzine said after he had ascended the altar and stood at the lectern. “It is wonderful to have the opportunity to come and speak about a subject that Congressman Payne and I are passionate about – to ask for your help.”

The senator started by emphasizing the bi-partisan nature of his work on this issue, noting that Senator Sam Brownback, R-Kansas, is championing the battle against genocide on the other side of the aisle.
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14556000&BRD=1918&PAG=461&dept_id=506415&rfi=6

Patriarch denounces U.S. evangelicals in Iraq
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1485089

[Adelante]

27. Corzine is no evangelical fundie

Why do you continue to post repeatedly in such a misleading fashion in every single thread on this topic? Why are you spamming these threads with little cherrypicked snippets that work for your agenda and not the truth?


"Good morning, Church..." -- he was speaking in a church!! So what?

Your link:

“No one really knows how many have been killed in Darfur,” said the senator. “We don’t know if it’s 250,000 or 400,000. What we do know is that a great tragedy has befallen a people. It is a tragedy to see man fight man, particularly when it’s encouraged by a sovereign power.”

Corzine said he has visited the neighboring country of Chad along the border of Darfur twice in the past nine months. He returned from his latest trip to the area ten days ago, where he saw refugees in the border camps, desperate to get out of Darfur.

“There are two and a half million refugees in Darfur and Chad,” he said. “There is a great human tragedy building in those camps. Our government and our society have provided tremendous amounts of refugee aid, but the nutritional needs for the people in those camps are still not what they should be. …Humanitarian aid and medical care needs to flow freely into those camps.”

Corzine voted against the Iraq war, by the way, and got $75 million through on the Foreign Operations Appropriations bill to support African Union troops in Darfur.

I guess we should hang him :eyes:

[DulceDecorum]

30. First of all,

I have posted on only two threads on this topic.
There are others.

Secondly,
I am presenting the position that has been agreed upon by
A) the Sudanese government,
B) the Sudanese people living in refugee camps in Darfur and elsewhere,
C) the African Union,
D) the European Union,
E) the United Nations, and
F) NATO.

I realise that this position is offensive to some who reside within the US,
but their position is equally offensive to the majority of humanity.

Besides which, Colin Powell,
the one who bandied the word genocide about,
was the same exact person who signed the peace accord
as a witness,
on behalf of the United States.

Monday, January 10, 2005; Page A09
NAIROBI, Jan. 9 -- Africa's longest-running conflict officially ended Sunday as representatives of the Sudanese government and rebel forces signed a comprehensive peace accord that gives the southern part of the country religious and political autonomy and a share of Sudan's oil riches.
Under brilliant sunshine, African leaders, diplomats and thousands of dancing and chanting Sudanese refugees gathered in Nairobi at a stadium to watch Sudan's first vice president, Ali Uthman Muhammad Taha, and the leader of the rebel Sudan People's Liberation Army, John Garang, sign the agreement.
<snip>
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, representing the United States, also signed the agreement as a witness. Christian evangelical groups -- a key part of President Bush's political base -- had pressed hard for a resolution, and the administration had made a peace agreement one of its top diplomatic priorities.
<snip>
Garang, who studied economics at Grinnell College in Iowa and trained at the infantry school at Fort Benning, Ga., at one point was supported by the pro-Soviet government in Ethiopia while the Sudanese government was supported by the United States during the Cold War. Now, he is set to join the Khartoum government.
Asked Saturday when he would move to Khartoum, Garang said many things had to be sorted out, adding wryly: "I command an army that cannot possibly go to Khartoum with me now."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A60373-2005Jan9?language=printer
That would be the same Sudanese government that is now being protested so vociferously on this board. Which is precisely why the Africans are demanding to full autonomy in sorting this mess out.

[geek tragedy]

25. Move it along people. Nothing to see here. eom

[DulceDecorum]

32. The Embassy of Sudan to the US

maintains a website.

I strongly urge ALL who are interested in the issued of Darfur
to at least skim through the headlines on their news page.
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=newsevents

After all, even a criminal is entitled to a hearing.
So please,
listen
to what the Sudanese people have to say.
No-one is asking you to believe it.
But you do owe those people that much
before you begin to drop bombs upon their heads.

Here is a very very small sampling of the headlines.

On March 20, 2004 the New York Times in its front page coverage entitled “USA Today Finds Top Writer Lied” quoted USA Today editor Karen Jorgensen saying in explaining the causes of fabrication and sensational media coverage of the events taking place in the Third World: “the difficulty of events in distant war-torn countries made verification impossible.” It is unjust and immoral that the difficulty of verification should result in hasty incrimination and hasty decision of imposition of sanctions, military intervention and sometimes warfare that would turn the lives of millions of people to a real misery.
Rather than comment on each and every erroneous story bylined in your newspaper, I would instead suggest that The New York Times try sending one or two of your prize-winning investigative reporters to Sudan to see for themselves what is happening in Darfur and, equally important, why it is happening. Then America’s newspaper of record will be providing a service in the best traditions of a great institution.
Ambassador Khidir Haroun Ahmed
Chief of Mission,
Sudan Embassy, Washington DC
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=262

Nor is the Southern Sudan problem one of racial struggle or persecution of Africans by Arabs. Such superficial explanations do not in fact explain anything. Arab tribes began immigrating to the Sudan about 600 years ago freely and intermarried freely with the Negroid tribes they found. This process of free intercourse went on for 500 years. The result is obvious today if one looks at the skin or the features of a northern Sudanese Arab, he is much darker than his cousin in Libya, or Egypt.
Whole Arab tribes are as black as the Dinka and it is common to find an Arab family where one son pitch black while the other is coffee colored. Their features have been much blunted by the Negro blood in them and if you have seen a United States of America’s Negro you have seen a Sudanese Arab.
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=90

Your (Washington Times) editorial on August 15 2003 (“In search of peace in Sudan”) makes several deeply questionable assertions that cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged.
You claim that the Sudanese government has engaged in “genocidal assaults on the people of the south.” If this was even remotely the case, why have millions of southern Sudanese civilians voluntarily trekked hundreds of miles from southern Sudan -- often in difficult circumstances – to seek refuge in northern Sudan, and particularly Khartoum? Most people do not flee toward “genocidal assaults.”
You would appear to be unaware that as part of the Sudanese peace process, the Civilian Protection Monitoring Team (CPMT) – a State Department-funded body headed by an American brigadier general – has been in place to investigate precisely such claims. Its work is a matter of record. Investigating the sort of claims you have made, the CPMT revealed that such assertions were unsubstantiated.
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=199

Newsweek International Reports Presence of Anti-Peace Christian Aid Groups in Sudan
Tuesday, August 19, 2003
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=195

Slave Trade Hoax
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=25
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=53
"Wow!" responded Mel Foote, president of the Constituency for Africa," in response to the news reports. "It is truly amazing what people have done to keep the longest running war in Africa going! There needs to be a reckoning by those who have exploited the Sudanese people for monetary and political gain."
http://www.sudanembassy.org/default.asp?page=viewstory&id=72