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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:51 PM
Original message
Breaking - Two F-18s Feared Down in Iraq
CNN Website:

A search is under way for the crews of two U.S. Marine fighter jets lost while on an Operation Iraqi Freedom mission.

http://www.cnn.com /

MSNBC Website:

Two Navy F-18s feared down in mid-air collision in Iraq

http://www.msnbc.msn.com /

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. Haven't lost any F-18s before?
Of course, the Iraqis had nothing to do with shooting it down. Nah, no way. :sarcasm off:

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Excuse me, but what in Iraq is there to bomb?
Are the insurgents operating airstrips, power plants or weapons factories?

Didn't think so . . .
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Briar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. There's constant bombing
but the western media doesn't report it.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
43. They can blow up a couple of Orphanages and an old folks home
Shit these's plenty of elderly rag heads to Napalm and Fry to a crisp </sarcasm>
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nguoihue Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. bombing targets
Don't forget the wedding parties
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Barkley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #55
92. Q: Why are there no WAL*MARTs in Iraq?
A: Because there's a TARGET on every corner.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #92
111. LOL KICK
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
94. Besides, less bombing means smaller war profits...
Halliburton and the Bush Family wouldn't like that.

http://www.costofwar.com /
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Columns of tanks, bunkers, missile silos, all the usual terrorist
fortifications. Don't you know anything? :+
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. And an occasional wedding n/t
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olddad56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
41. I've gotten bombed at many a wedding.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
112. And the winner is ....
I am STILL laughing out loud, ready to roll right out of my chair.
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catastrophicsuccess Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Don't forget
Weddings, journalists, etc...
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Iran
and that explains the collision.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
37. there are reportedly still a few children left alive and unmaimed
in parts of Iraq.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. "A few children left alive and unmaimed." Much truth in that.
x(
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Henny Penny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
67. al jazeera outposts...
recently freed hostages...
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
99. There's daily bombing according to Sy Hersch
In defense our our field commanders, WTF else are they going to do? If we try to fight them on the ground, our casualties will rise exponentially. Too bad the Il Dunce' never read a book about Viet Nam, or he would realize that this isn't going to work either.
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
108. Lots of stuff
Particularly homes with people, some of whom may be suspected bad guys. Plus we've been going into Iran some. If we didn't bomb, then how would we keep up all that collateral damage?
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. .
Edited on Mon May-02-05 05:56 PM by Algorem
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Two Navy F-18s feared down in mid-air collision in Iraq
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yikes
Not good.
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NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. CNN Breaking News says..
.A search is under way for the crews of two U.S. Marine fighter jets lost while on an Operation Iraqi Freedom mission. Details soon

CNN must constantly drill home that everything done in Iraq is for freedom.

I think it should have read:

A search is under way for the crews of two U.S. Marine fighter jets lost while on an Operation Drain Iraqi Oil mission. Details soon
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
63. Operation Iraqi Freedom

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

BERLIN LYRICS

"Masquerade"

The painted faces on the street
caricatures of long ago
oh they were young and oh so sweet
down beyond the boulevard
knock on doors and empty halls
and still sometimes remember
the masquerade's forever

when you see the price they paid
i'm sure you'll come and join the masquerade

the reeling figurtes pass on by
like ghosts in some forgotten play
beneath the black and empty sky
music plays and figures dance
with partners chosen by chance
and still some times remember
the masquerade's forever

they reached for tomorrow
but tomorrows, more of the same
so they reached for tomorrow
but tomorrow never came

when you hear the price they paid
i'm sure you'll come and join the masquerade

one by one and two by two
past eight by tens in shattered frames
the players try to leave the room
frantic puppets on a string
and all the while the music sings
and still sometimes remember
the masquerade's forever

http://www.lyricscafe.com/b/berlin/masquerade.html
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
100. I prefer Operation I Like Wearing A Flight Suit
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
110. New Network Graphic For Iraq
Edited on Tue May-03-05 12:15 PM by kenny blankenship


...and as you can see from the map, much of "southern Iraq" is just south of western Iran, as well as being south of northern Iraq. Up in the air it all looks the same. I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that our two young Navy aviators experienced "engine trouble" over Iraq but then the uh...prevailing winds, or a sandstorm or something, caused their wreckage to get scattered somehow on the other side of the border. All very innocently.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. From the link.. wtf? Mid air collision in the Desert?
I am sorry. This makes no sense so far...

WASHINGTON - Navy officials said Friday that two F-18 fighter jets apparently were involved in an "air-to-air collision" over southern Iraq. There was no immediate word on the fate of the crew members.

The officials, who spoke with NBC News on condition of anonymity, said there was "no initial indication that hostile fire" contributed to the loss of the aircraft.

The fighter jets, based on the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, were reported missing at 10:10 p.m. local time, four hours after they were due to return from their mission.

A statement by the military said search efforts were under way and that the status of the crew members was unknown.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. They fly in formation and air to air collisions happen
with some regularity.

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. at night?
I am sorry do be so doubtful. But this misadministration has made me this way. :(
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. F-18 is all weather, all hours
Edited on Mon May-02-05 07:08 PM by Zynx
Night ops are very common.

WIth the speeds they are moving at, if one plane brushes the other, both are going to shatter. And military aircraft tend to fly in very tight formations.

One pilot leans on his stick, or turbulance bounces one aircraft into the other one, or one pilot moves the stick when he looks at his buddy...this sort of thing can happen.

There's a reason almost all midair collisions are in the military.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. Having done that, let me gently correct you. You statement misleads.
I would say: The F-16s fly everywhere in formation (at least they should unless they are on a solo training or recce mission), and mid-air collisions are extremely rare (they are!). The military has a much higher mid-air collision rate than civil aviation, but it is still extremely low relative to all rates a very few years ago.
Know what I mean Vern?


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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. I know whatcha mean Demo!
and thank you for the clarification.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
104. This might sound like a naive question...
Edited on Tue May-03-05 11:22 AM by KansDem
but I was never in the military, so I must ask...

Why fly so close in formation if such accidents can happen? Can the planes fly a little farther apart to avoid these kinds of incidents? I would think that planes flying in a looser formation would also make less of a target in the same way troops patrolling in a looser formation would make less of a target if a grenade or land mine should go off.

What is the advantage of flying tight formations?
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Have you ever been in extreme turbulence?
I was once in a jet that hit turbulence and "fell" several hundred feet, pretty much out of control of the pilot. Turbulence can roll jets on their sides, cause them to gain altitude, and do all kinds of other nasty things. Now imagine hitting turbulence like that and having another jet sitting 25 feet off your left wing. Collisions happen with some regularity in the military for this reason, and dozens of others.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
48. Traffic over Iraq must be tough
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catastrophicsuccess Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. AP wire
The Associated Press
Monday, May 2, 2005; 6:52 PM

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- The U.S. military said Tuesday it had lost contact with two jets flying in support of operations in Iraq.

The status of the two U.S. Marine F/A-18 Hornet aircraft and their crew was not immediately known, the military said in a statement.

Contact was lost at 10:10 p.m. Monday, the statement said. There were no initial indications of hostile fire in the area at the time.

Search efforts were underway, the military said. No further information was released.

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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
10. so clueless they "lost" 2 jets? & don't know if they were shot down?
yep, somone's lost.
Who's running this circus?
No one seems to have a clue where half of those "billions" of taxpayer dollars went either...but no search is underway for that.

Idiots.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. The Iraq war is not a circus...
We took our children to the circus last weekend.

The circus was exactly as we expected. It was worth the money we paid. There was no false advertising involved. We got what we expected, and no one lied to get us in the door.

The Iraq war is not a circus.

That statement is an insult to circuses all over the world.

How can you defile the Shriners like that?

:)
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Chimps are in the Circus-- this is a Circus of Death- a Sadistic Circus
Edited on Mon May-02-05 06:31 PM by NIGHT TRIPPER
Don't send your children there--We have Clowns that love to inflict pain and death and destruction.
Circus of the killer klowns--Featuring a Chimp (commander in Chimp)
How many dead thus far?
Grab your peanuts and tell me "my" statement is an "insult" to circuses--
It's our Ring Leaders who created the Greatest Blunder on Earth.

It's a laugh --ha ha ha--200 thousand dead Iraqi civilians!
Ha Ha Ha....
Think that's ok?
I don't.
The blood is on your hands and the hands of everyone welse who supports this insane Clown in charge of our country!
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. fuckin right
Edited on Mon May-02-05 09:22 PM by confludemocrat
Couldn'a said it better myself. A colossal fuckup for the ages, borne of lies, fueled with senseless killing and corruption for an ever-shifting panoply of flimsy bullshit justifications all carried forward on a wave of stupidity and mass irrationality that rivals the delusional acquiescence of the German masses during WW2. All for national pride and hubris and our "rightness".

Makes you sick
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pie Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
95. You have a wonderfully cynical sense of humor
Gris Gris
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. The sky is very big
What a coincidence that two F-18's would attempt to occupy the same space at the same time.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. GPS navigation makes some flying more dangerous.
If two planes are lost in bad visibility and trying to fly the same course, there is a good chance that they will fly EXACTLY the same course, within a few feet.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. One might have gone right while the other went left
Stupid military aviation accidents do happen, and fairly frequently.

This sounds like two wingmen took each other out with their aircraft.
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johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. Maybe they defected to Monaco
Heck, no taxes!
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. those things have ejector seats, right?
So there's a chance that the people who were on those planes are still alive, I think.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. A pilot was found in Serbia a couple weeks after he went down.
It was around 2 weeks of survival in the forest.
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
47. Worst case scenario: pilots captured by insurgency
Then things would be mellow.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #47
105. Or perhaps, shot down over IRAN
For all we really know, that's where they really were.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
65. yikes! I had a scary thought....
It would indeed be nice if they ejected safely. But what are the chances of them being taken hostage by the resistance? I am not getting good visuals right now. :(
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
102. Sure there's a chance BUT
But they also have transponders. Unless they bailed over a hostile territory --oh, like um Iran maybe-- they would surely turn on their transponders to let air rescue know that they are alive and where they are. If the Navy and the rest of the military don't know about the pilot's whereabouts or their status, there's a chance they are alive, but an even better chance that they're dead.

Unless they actually were lost over Iran, and not where they were said to be.
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AwareOne Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
21. How many millions does one F-18 cost?
Doesn't matter of course, we'll just borrow more money to replace them.
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catastrophicsuccess Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. yup its not like Social Security...
Print the fucking money and lets kills some ragheads.




:sarcasm:
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ComplimentarySwine Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. From the Blue Angels's website:
How much does an F/A-18 cost?

The 1997 basic acquisition price of a single F/A-18 Hornet is approximately $28 million. The cost of additional weapons-related equipment varies according to the configuration and use of each aircraft can significantly increase the total price. (http://www.blueangels.com/faq.shtml )


Compare to a Boeing 737 that is reported to cost, in 2004 dollars, $44 - $74 million. (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices /)
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Cheap
Only $56 million lost. :shrug:
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nittygritty Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. give or take several million-
Edited on Mon May-02-05 06:42 PM by nittygritty
depending on model and/or inflation:



Data below for F/A-18E
Last modified 16 March 2005



HISTORY:
First Flight December 1995
Service Entry

(F-18E) November 1999
(F-18F) 2003


CREW: (F-18E) one: pilot
(F-18F) two: pilot, weapon systems officer


ESTIMATED COST:

(F/A-18E) $57 million <2003$>
(F/A-18F) $59 million <2003$>
(EA-18G) $66 million <2003$>


AIRFOIL SECTIONS:
Wing Root unknown
Wing Tip

unknown


DIMENSIONS:
Length 60.01 ft (18.31 m)
Wingspan 44.71 ft (13.62 m)
Height 15.79 ft (4.82 m)
Wing Area 500 ft2 (46.45 m2)
Canard Area

not applicable


WEIGHTS:
Empty 30,600 lb (13,880 kg)
Typical Load unknown
Max Takeoff 66,000 lb (29,935 kg)
Fuel Capacity internal:
(F-18E) 14,400 lb (6,530 kg)
(F-18F) 13,550 lb (6,145 kg)
external: 9,780 lb (4,435 kg)
Max Payload

17,750 lb (8,050 kg)


PROPULSION:
Powerplant two General Electric F414-400 afterburning turbofans
Thrust 44,000 lb (195.72 kN) with afterburner


PERFORMANCE:
Max Level Speed at altitude: 1,190 mph (1,915 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,190 m), Mach 1.8
at sea level: unknown
Initial Climb Rate unknown
Service Ceiling 50,000 ft (15,240 m)
Range typical: 1,200 nm (2,225 km)
ferry: 1,660 nm (3,055 km)
Endurance unknown
g-Limits unknown


ARMAMENT:
Gun one 20-mm M61A1/A2 Vulcan cannon
Stations nine external hardpoints and two wingtip rails
Air-to-Air Missile AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM
Air-to-Surface Missile AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-84 Harpoon, AGM-84 SLAM, AGM-84 SLAM-ER, AGM-88 HARM, AGM-154 JSOW
Bomb GBU-10/12/24 Paveway laser-guided, GBU-29/30/31/32/35 JDAM, Mk 82/83/84 GP
Other ECM pods, SHARP reconnaissance pod, rocket pods, mines


KNOWN VARIANTS:
F/A-18E One-seat Super Hornet with enlarged fuselage allowing much larger fuel capacity, improved radar, greater payload, and greater stealth characteristics; 244 to be built
F/A-18F Two-seat version of the Super Hornet; 304 to be built
EA-18G Electronic warfare platform based on the F-18F airframe to provide jamming escort capability


KNOWN COMBAT RECORD:

Afghanistan - Operation Enduring Freedom (USN, 2001-present)
Iraq - Operation Southern Watch (USN, 2002-2003)
Iraq - Operation Iraqi Freedom (USN, 2003-present)


KNOWN OPERATORS:

United States (US Navy)


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f18ef /


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AwareOne Donating Member (319 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Wow! So thats about $100,000,000 worth of junk strewn across
the desert. I hope the pilots ejected, I don't mean to be callus about the possible loss of life. I can just picture some Iraqi standing with his foot on the detached engine holding his WWII surplus rifle over his head like he just shot it down.
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NeoConsSuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Don't worry..
once that Iraqi SUV juice starts flowing, we'll get that money back </sarcasm>

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. The cost of a few F-18s
is nothing compared to the overall cost of the Iraqi War to the US taxpayers.

More money for the Republican War Machine

Less money for healing the sick and feeding the poor.

And these assholes have the NAKED AUDACITY to claim Christian values.

Jesus Weeps every time a Republican gets elected!!
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
60. But you can't bomb any terrorist 'hotspots' in a 737
It's only military purpose is to fly into World Trade Centers :sarcasm:
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
101. That's pretty good value
I worked at a place that made them 20 years ago, and they were $30M then.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
34. My thoughts go out to the pilots and their families
My middle finger goes out to bush** and his clan.

RL
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #34
64. My thoughts are with the families, as well... nt
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
35. It appears that
the Iraqis or someone on the ground has figured out how to bring down our F-18's. Think of how many heli's have come down in the past few months.

I would suspect Russian assistance on the ground, or possibly Iranian technical people. Maybe they have infra-red detectors, or heat-seeking devices that can zero in on these aircraft.

Heli's are one thing, but F-18's are a completely different animal.

The statistics on this are daunting. I'm sure the Pentagon knows, but it won't divulge.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Much more likely they just hit each other
It happens and hasn't happened in Iraq for a while.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I Wouldn't Say They Were Shot...
down just yet. However if you watch the insurgencies latest video, they display a very nice shoulder fired SAM that could do the trick. I hope they haven't learned how to use them.

Jay
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. I would not say that just yet
Edited on Mon May-02-05 08:40 PM by NNN0LHI
Though I would not be shocked to find out that Putin has began supplying the Iraqis with some type of assistance (SAMs maybe?) to repay the USA for providing Osama bin Laden and the Afghan mujahideen Stingers and other weaponry in Afghanistan during the 1980's. Wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Boosh trusts Putin, but I sure don't.

Don

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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. He Does Lament The Collapse...
or the USSR and was deeply entrenched in it's inner workings. Sounds like the obvious thing to do for a sour man bent on revenge.

Jay
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. aaaaaand....CHINA, anyone? Bueller?
They have developed EVERYTHING we have: Nukes. ICBMs to carry nukes. A capitalist economy.
They just BOUGHT IBM's computer division.

Their 'Silkworm' SAMs are currently the STATE of the Art...best bang/buck ratio on the market!
They are probably going to be on the MOON decades before we get back there........

The only thing we HAVE NOT seen from China is: Shoulder-launched seeker-missles which can take down a fighter jet.

We have them, the USSR had them...and many thousands of BOTH models disappeared from view decades ago.

So were these jets taken out by one of the THOUSANDS of 'Stingers' we handed out like CANDY in Afghanistan...
or some ex-Soviet yard sale surplus...

Or does the People's Republic have another groundbreaking product in Beta Testing?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
54. It's unlikely
but not impossible. It is incredibly difficult to take down a jet, especially 2 jets. We have to see if this keeps happening. Of course, that's how everything turned around in Afghanistan. They were able to take down Soviet helicopters.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. They weren't only downing Soviet helicopters.
If my memory serves me Soviet MIGs began falling out of the sky pretty regularly too.

Don

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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. OK. I agree.
We'll chalk this one down to "mysterious circumstances". Keep it in the back of our mind.

We'll just keep a tally of the heli's downed, and any other fighter aircraft.

It seems that if someone is using sophisticated weaponry, there will be more. I hope not, but this will repeat.
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
42. US military loses contact with two jets over Iraq (link)...
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
44. How many crewman are usually on an F-18 ? n/t
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. one pilot
and, for some versions of the plane, a weapons guy too.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. 1 per plane. nt
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
56. Oh, you know, those flyboys have to have some target practice
every few days! They used to go scaring (buzzing) cattle on the big ranches in Texas, but this is much more fun! :sarcasm:
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
58.  Section Front Section Front U.S. Military: Two Jets Missing
(CBS/AP) The U.S. military has lost contact with two jets flying in support of coalition operations in Iraq, military officials said.

The status of the two U.S. Marine F/A-18 Hornet aircraft and their crew was not immediately known, the military said in a statement. Contact was lost at 10:10 p.m. Monday, a statement said. There were no initial indications of hostile fire in the area at the time.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main5418...

Last week a private helicopter was downed by a missle attack
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-05 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
62. How's the weather? another sandstorm?
Why fly in a tight formation when your main threat is kids throwing rocks from the ground (well maybe an AK-47 burst too)? And why use F-18s against a few dead enders? Were they anywhere near a border (Iran, Syria)?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
66. One pilot confirmed killed
At least one US Marine Corps pilot has died and another is missing after two F/A-18 Hornet jets crashed in Iraq.

The planes are thought to have been involved in a mid-air collision in bad weather on Monday evening, reports say.

A US military spokesman said the planes had been flying too high to have been shot down by hostile fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4507609.stm

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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
68. Man.........
those musta been some bad pilots!

(tee hee tee hee - Bush type humor)
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
69. Two U.S. Hornet jets collide in mid air over Iraq
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=f3e056f37483d911

The U.S. Marine Corps has lost two F/A-18 jets in bad weather over Iraq, fearing they collided.

A rescue and recovery mission was launched after
the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson lost contact with the planes about 10:10 p.m. (2:10 p.m. ET), a statement from military officials said.

The mission of the planes was described by authorities as routine. "There was no indication of hostile fire in the area at the time contact was lost," the statement said without disclosing the location of the planes.

If confirmed that the planes collided it will the third such collission by hornets in the past 18 months.

The Boeing F/A-18 Hornets cost US $35 million each and are all-weather fighter and attack aircraft, usually manned by one or two person crews

more...

What the hell is wrong with these hornets that our pilots keep colliding this is horrible!!!
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. R.I.P.
Devildogs.
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surrey405 Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. its a sad thing for two reasons.
one is definitely for the pilots, if something happened to them...hope things go well with his family...other sad thign is i cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this...anyone can find a reason...i would be more than happy.
thanks DUers
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Well
Edited on Tue May-03-05 01:04 AM by bluestateguy
one is definitely for the pilots, if something happened to them...hope things go well with his family...other sad thign is i cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this...anyone can find a reason...i would be more than happy.
thanks DUers


If they were not sent over there in the first place--to a war fought on false pretenses and lies--they would likely still be alive today.

So yes, I blame George W. Bush for anything bad that happens to any serviceperson over there, seeing as how it likely would not have happened to him had Bush not sent them there in the first place.
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flordehinojos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. those planes would not have been flying over iraq, (and therefore would
probably not have collided) if bush had not invaded and occupied iraq.

i think that is reason enough to blame him for what happened.

in the end, those soldiers' blood is on his hands.

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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. Hiss....
Cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this?

How about the dammed war that he lied this country into? How about the logical conclusion that if he hadn't started this fool crusade many servicemen -- like these pilots -- would be alive?

Cannot find any reason to blame Bush for this?!? Please... :eyes:
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. talk about disingenuous... phew.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #71
81. Nah, chimp's paws are clean on this one for sure.
However, it's too god damn bad he wasn't in the back seat of one of them at the time wearing his codpiece and goofy smirk!
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #71
87. No reason to blame Bush for this?
Who the fuck do you think you're kidding?

:eyes:

RL
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. My guess would be himself
Because no one else around here is drinking that Kool-Aid.

Don

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lectrobyte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #71
96. Uh, if * hadn't lied us into a war, lots of dead people might still
be alive... Remember the State of the Union speech a few years ago? Condi's mushroom cloud remark? Colin Powell at the UN? If not Bush, then who else bears the blame?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #71
97. Pobrecito
No need to be sad. There's plenty of reasons to blame Bush for this and every other debacle stemming from his illegal invasion of a harmless nation--just see below.

Feeling better now?

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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. Your pilots
do not 'keep colliding'
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. I thought they "lost" the planes- maybe tcheck the lost and found
Whoever's running this "circus" doesn't have a clue.
"losing" 28 million dollar planes..
maybe they collided?
maybe?
well maybe hostile fire is as good a "maybe" when you don't know anything.

And everyone who signs up to fly or drive or shoot for the gang that couldn't shoot straight should realize just who've they've entrusted their safety to.

I feel sympathetic toward those killed and their families-they obvioulsy didn't know what they were gettiing into. It's our job to spread awareness of the truth to prevent people from supporting things they should oppose.
-Truth isn't popular on the "corporate"evening news.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #74
78. Did you read the article?
The planes are $35 million each... Not 28 million.
Furthermore, your comments are offensive in regards to our brave servicemen and women. "And everyone who signs up to fly or drive or shoot for the gang that couldn't shoot straight should realize just who've they've entrusted their safety to." That is a damn fool thing to say -- damn arrogant and completely dismissive of the feelings of those who have served and the family members lost to grieve over loved ones lost in this foolish charade, this War of Terror. How dare you? You may follow it up with the comment of feeling sympathetic, but how sympathetic do you really feel saying such things as the aforementioned? Nonetheless, you are right that we should spread awareness of the truth -- that is, the illegality of this war and the lies which lead to it.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. More dead Americans
And Bush sent them over there.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Yes, and one life is just as bad as what is quickly approaching 1600. n/t
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #79
93. Don't forget that
there are Iraqis in Iraq and those po' wittle brave American soldiers and airmen are killing them by the bushel.

At the time of the collision, those pilots might have been hootin' and hollerin' at "smokin' some hajis". Regardless, their job that night was to kill natives.

Bush (with the House's drooling approval) may have sent the military to Iraq, but they willingly went and seem to relish in their job of killing and torturing Iraqis while destroying the locals' property and tearing the social fabric of a once prosperous nation into shreds.

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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #93
103. Wow.
"those po' wittle brave American soldiers and airmen"

"those pilots might have been hootin' and hollerin' at "smokin' some hajis""

"seem to relish in their job of killing and torturing Iraqis"

I had no idea you knew every man and woman serving in Iraq and what every one of them is thinking.

How on earth do you find time to post on this board?
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #78
82. Thank you.
nt
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. I do Sympathize and pray for the families
But as a former soldier who was taught to think outside of the box, the military is in this not only because of Bush and his crowd of wackos, but because their chain of command for the most part don't give a rat's ass about the troops.

And don't look for those generals and admirals to begin to care about the troops under their command, they all have their tickets punched now and all it cost them were almost 1600 military personnel
and possibly over 100,000 Iraqis and Afghans.

Look at Tommy Franks, he retired at the right time, he got his little medal of freedom, and wrote a book. Once General Myers steps
down you can bet he'll be getting a nice high paying consulting job
with a corporation that's already in bed with the Bush Cabal.

And now, defying what has been a long standing tradition, the new
Joint Chiefs Chairman is going to be a Marine, not just any Marine, no. Good old General Pace, the man whose head is so far up Rumsfeld's
ass, that if Rummy turned a corner too fast, Pace would break his neck.

Those pilots don't deserve scorn, they thought that they were doing the right thing, the problem is that throughout history many military
people thought they were doing the right thing.

The Romans Siege of Masada, The Crusades, Wounded Knee, Sand Creek, the Spanish American War, WWII(I'm sure the German, Italian, and Japanese soldiers thought they were doing the right thing), My Lai, and let's not forget Kent State.

And those are just a few periods in history when the military thought it was doing the right thing. And now once again the US military really believe's that they are doing the right thing.

The real problem is that what they are doing isn't right, and yet they still do it. But when you're morals are superficial, I guess it really doesn't matter does it.

Personally I hope they find the crews of both F/A 18's, alive and well, so they can get back home to their families, but I have a bad feeling it isn't going to happen.


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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #84
107. I agree with your post.
You're not the only former military member on the board by the way. I'm a veteran myself, and I still don't like the tone of attacking our men and women in uniform -- especially when they are possibly dead and there is no evidence WHATSOEVER that they engaged in any wrong-doing. The poster has the right to express his opinion, and I have the right to call it foolish. To insinuate that the pilots are somehow responsible for their fate while at the same time saying you pray for their safety -- as the poster in question did, not you, atreides -- is a clear exercise in the most Orwellian double-speak.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #84
109. Very well spoken, on a difficult subject. n/t
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Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #78
86. "That is a damn fool thing to say "
This is America.....remember! Whether you like what was said or NOT, he has the right to express his opinion (last time I checked).
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DivinBreuvage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. Yes, and others have the right to call his opinion foolish.
Contrary to what you seem to believe, the right to speak one's mind does not entitle one to immunity from criticism.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #90
106. Thank you.
I could not have said it any better myself.
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #78
113. did you read my post at all?
you're a Damn Fool yourself!
And I have a link that proves they're 28 million dollars.
Why the hell would I write 28 if I thought the 35 was correct?
I have no sympathy for peeople like YOU.
As for soldiers, I stated already, it's not their fault they signed up with the ass hat circus-
These leaders haven't got a clue on how to invade and take over foriegn countries.,
Isn't that Obvious?
200 thousand innocent civilians dead and they STILL can't control the situation?
Hilter knew how to do it better than these rich pig filthy oil mongers-and even he failed in the end.
These soldiers are working for the corporations and don't even know it.
And it appears you don't know it either.

Join'm if you'd like...they're short on recrutiment quotas..they could use a good "yes" man.
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. Don't say this often, but
WHATEVER
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
83. I just hope the military is going to fix the problems
cause to keep sending this men out in these Hornets is stupid if there is a problem!!!
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #69
85. GPS jammers
JANUARY 17, 2003 (COMPUTERWORLD) - Government officials and communications experts are assessing the public safety and security implications of a newly posted online article that provides directions for making cheap devices that can jam Global Positioning System (GPS) signals.
http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/st...

MARCH 27, 2003 (COMPUTERWORLD) - The U.S. Army awarded $192,000 in contracts in 2002 to a Russian company identified in news reports as a supplier of Global Positioning System (GPS) jamming equipment to Iraq.
Moscow-based Aviaconversiya Ltd. has denied selling the jamming equipment to Iraq, according to the news reports. Officials there couldn't be reached for comment this week, despite repeated attempts by Computerworld to do so.
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/governmen...

REBUTTAL
by George Smith
January 22 - 28, 2003
In light of the story's evident folly, it cannot be ruled out that the "news" was intentionally fostered by the Pentagon. It is well known that employment of jamming immediately reveals the location of the jammer, painting a bull's eye on him. Good news for Uncle Sam's regime-change plans if one gets used on top of the Iraqi presidential command bunker.
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0304,smith,41341,8.htm...

Please do not use a Russki jammer.
The Pentagon cannot be held responsible if your jammer causes you to be blown up because the location of you Red Cross warehouse, hospital, or wedding celebration has been identified.
Please also note that two clicks of a mouse will never break past Pentagon redaction.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4506517.stm
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #69
88. RIP
bRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!
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MetaTrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #69
91. Bush should get in the cockpit and show them how it's done
:freak:
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #91
98. ROFL
Yeah, he used to be a pilot, ya know, and when he heard about this crash, he thought, wow, that's one bad pilot.

God, what a loser.
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