Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old (FL) warning - picture

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:48 AM
Original message
Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old (FL) warning - picture
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:49 AM by soup


"No. Noooooo," the girl screams as police place metal handcuffs on her. They later switch to "zip-ties" to fit her small wrists.


Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old

The girl's teacher videotaped her class that day as a self-improvement exercise. An attorney calls the arrest "absurd" and "excessive."

By THOMAS C. TOBIN, Times Staff Writer
Published April 22, 2005


ST. PETERSBURG - Videotape was rolling March 14 when the 5-year-old girl swung again and again, her bantam punches landing on the outstretched palms of Nicole Dibenedetto, the new assistant principal at Fairmount Park Elementary.

She tore papers off Dibenedetto's bulletin board and desk. She climbed on a table four times. About an hour had passed since she refused to participate in a kindergarten math lesson, which escalated into a series of defiant and destructive acts.

-

As St. Petersburg police officers arrived shortly after 3 p.m., the girl suddenly sat quietly at Dibenedetto's table. And, just as suddenly, the tactics used by educators gave way to the more direct approach of law enforcement.

An officer sternly said the girl's name. Then: "You need to calm down. You need to do it now. OK?"

Seconds later, three officers approached and placed their hands on the girl's wrists and upper arms. They stood her up, put her arms behind her back and put on handcuffs. She bent over the table and let out a terrified scream.
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_s...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Now if the little girl was white, Bill O'Reilly would be outraged. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Just what I was thinking
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
184. excellent post (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
260. Watch the video - you will change you rmind
When I read the story I thought it was the wrong move. But if you watch the video of the girl, you see something like this was in order. It was not out of line. The school administrators handled themselves very well.

She tore about the principals office and was taking swings at the teacher of whoever it was in the video. The little girl was totally insider herself and she needed something to get her attention.

You really have to watch the video and you will see it differently.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #260
305. The last time your kid had a tantrum, did you call the police?
If it had been your child, would you feel differently?
Remember, we never saw what might have started the child to behave the way she did. something happened to her either during this episode of sometime other time to make her feel the need to lash out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #305
322. Nope
And the police should not have been called in this situation. After viewing the video, though, you can sure see why someone would consider it. Some of the other people posting have had a much better approach to dealing with this child.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #260
327. If I can calm down a 300lb person during a psychotic episode
as a civilian, these **trained professionals** should have a strategy for dealing with an out of control 5 YEAR OLD.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #327
438. Yes, I've come to that conclusion after diving into this thread. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
holboz Donating Member (641 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #327
470. Terrible, but school officials may not be allowed to "restrain" kids...
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 12:32 AM by holboz
I don't condone the handcuffing of this five year old or any other child, but let me share an episode I witnessed when I worked at an elementary school a couple of years ago.

I was in a "learning bridge" classroom (i.e., one for kids with behavior problems) when a 10 year old kid flipped out in much the same way. It wasn't the first time this kid had a fit but this was the worst...he turned over bookshelves, threw chairs, smashed the globe, pulled down maps, grabbed the computer and shoved it off the table. If it wasn't bolted down this kid threw it. The other kids in the classroom were quickly shuffled out, but the teachers couldn't do anything. Why? Because the kid's parents threatened the school district with legal action if anyone dared to physically restrain him. What was worse is that the kid knew adults weren't allowed to touch him. He would scream to us, "You can't f**king touch me, my Daddy told me so!" It's amazing this kid didn't hurt himself or anyone else during his tirade. It was a gut wrenching episode to watch, especially since we couldn't do anything out of fear of legal action.

In the end, the teachers had to call the local police department's resource officer (an officer who works at the schools). I don't think they handcuffed him but I know they sat him in the back of the police car until he pulled himself together.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #470
562. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #260
405. handcuffs are NOT needed-I watched!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #405
439. I've come to that conclusion after readin this thread. No cuffs needed. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
youngdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #260
493. I have watched the video..
I think that what happened is horribly wrong! Why didn't the school notify a parent? And really how much damage can a five year old inflict with her fists? If she had a weapon, yes I can see law enforcement being called, but hell it was a temper tantrum.

I have to wonder about the video tape thing, was she the class
"experiment" for the day? A tape to be showed to other " naughty" little children that are misbehaving? Sad, sad, sad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #493
530. Sigh.
1) Parent was notified, couldn't come for over an hour.

2) The child's fists were not the main issue. The main issue was her out-of-control meltdown/tantrum.

3) Videotape was not to be shown to other kids, but most likely to help the teacher and others deal with this recurrent behavior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SunDrop23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
289. Nail on head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
297. I agree
There has been a concerted effort by the media to dehumanize african americans - this just fits into that picture (intentional or not, it doesn't matter, its happening).
This is the politics of racism, folks, plain and simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
482. At least!
O'Reilly, Hannity, Liddy, ALEX JONES, EVERYONE ON SHORTWAVE!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. Florida, right?
I thought so.

--p!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:08 AM
Original message
Being a librul in Texas is tough....
but it must be double tough in Fla. We have behaviour problems like this in our school at least once a week (or more) and I have yet to see the police called (they have more important things to do). A trip to the principal's office and if it continues, a parental pick up is all it takes.....poor judgement on the educator's part. Kinders and wee ones have tantrums when they are tired, hungry, or stressed. It is up to the adults to teach kids how to deal with anger and dissapointment. What lesson did they teach this child? What lesson did they teach the other children? And more importantly, what does this say about us. :-(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
304. Well said Anne
You hate to think that a school is unable to control a 5 year old, even one swinging a baton or whatever, and being a terror.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
388. she was in the principals office. and in my opinion it's not the
teachers job to raise your child. they are there to teach, not instill moral values.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #388
406. they put cuffs on her to take her TO the principles office. She was in
the classroom when they were applied.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #406
441. WRONG. They were applied in the AP office. See the tape. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #406
456. no she was not. look at the tape please. unless that is one
hell of a public school, that was the principals office.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
95. They're really giving Texas a run for their money...
Jeeze!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
119. It's amazing. You can always guess Florida or Texas
and you will be right 75% of the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #119
196. We dont handcuff our kids in Texas...
we just beat them around a bit...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #196
329. Not in our district
we are a target for lawsuits. Start hitting a kid and you just as well paint a bulls eye on your back. Personally, I think it is best to let the parents handle it. Having seen the parents of some of these kids----I think it is Karma (or sweet justice). It is all a matter of putting the mail in the right box.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
563. Aren'cha sick of Florida and Texas bringing us shit like this?
Can't we have a referendum to authorize them to succeed from the Union?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. Who the hell would find this OK?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
69. Not this parent-of-a-five-year-old
I guess Dobson would be a-ok with it, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #69
116. would your five year old have a tantrum like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #116
144. Not unless it was you barking orders
in which case I'd give her the ok to go nookyoular on yo' ass.

kidding. My kid knows limits, behaves herself in the classroom, yadda yadda. Obviously the kid in question needs help and is a disciplinary horror, but that doesn't justify having a cop handcuff her.

There are days when my country shames me. reading a story like this, well, it's one of those days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. really so you would do what with this kid. please do tell.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #145
152. If I were a teacher
I could answer that.

I'm not, so I won't. I wouldn't pretend to know the best way to handle a child throwing a fit in a classroom situation.

Best I can do is guess.

Since you keep picking at this, why don't you tell us why yo uthink those cops did such a bang-up job in cuffing the 5-year old?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #152
262. I don't know what else you could do with that kid
If someone has a suggestion, it would be really helpful to the discussion. The cuffs got her attention. I was thinking if I was the teacher I would have tied her shoe laces together. Dang, that kid would not let up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lauri Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #262
442. That is not what I saw in that video - you should watch it again
She had ended her tantrum and was seated before the cops handcuffed her. In fact, the cop is telling her that she needs to calm down and she had already calmed down when he is saying that to her. She only starts to freak out again when they attempt to handcuff her.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #145
175. I can tell you what NOT to do
You don't call the cops over a five year old having a tantrum. And the cops shouldn't have gotten involved in this anyway. I know they have to go to the scene but they didn't have to "arrest" a small child. This was brutal, and no matter what her behavior was, she is still five, and this must have been very scary for her. Everyone involved handled this very badly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #175
199. And she'll probably
grow up hating and fearing the Police. Swift move, Exlax Patrol.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #175
214. that shit was beyond having a tantrum. she knew exactly what
she was doing. she would run all over most of you guy's and I suspect that most of you would end up calling the police.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #214
263. I don't know what I would do but you are probably right
That kid was definately out of control. Something was needed to get her attention. And if you watch the video, she only came back to her senses - acting like a normal kid again - once she had the cuffs on.

It is a very tough situation to handle, that is for sure. And it is not enough to simply say what they did was wrong. Whoever disagrees with calling the cops and cuffing her has to offer of a solution - it will be very helpful to the discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #263
307. Hey, how about putting her in a room till she quieted.
Oh wait this was a black little girl.

A 4 year old white kid nearly hits a police officer with a car and it's a funny joke.

A black kid in LA does the same thing the same week and they had to bury him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #307
321. The video was not in black and white
Keep the race card in your pocket for when the situation calls for it. This is not one of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #214
284. It's easy for some people to call a tantrum
by a black kid shit. However, when others who are not black do the same same it's a different story. You think non black children don't have tantrums in school? Well, they do. I have friends who are teachers and they have seen children behaving badly many, many times. The police weren't called and some of the perpetrators were older than that child. When a black person is involved, we can always count on some on this board to come out in support of the violence against the black person. It does not seem to matter that the person is a five year old child. Absolutely sickening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #284
293. On the flip side:
My caucasian stepdaughter in a caucasian household threw a bitchfit about going to school every morning in California. We had to physically lift her out of bed and force her towards the shower just to get her moving. This eventually got child services involved and my wife and I were informed of the limitations placed upon us by law. We were finally forced to call police officers to take my stepdaughter to school. If she didn't go, we were negligent by letting her miss school. If we physically forced her to move, we were abusive by state law. It was a no-win situation.

After that nightmare, I'm of the opinion the child can insist upon emancipation or just follow the damned rules. If the child won't follow the rules, by all means, call the police.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #293
411. You are talking about rules
when the child is five years old? Unbelievable. YOU expect a five year old to have the maturity of a teenager or an adult? Oh wait, I always hear these kind of excuses when the child is black. Your post is simply sickening. Civilized people do not treat young children like they are adults. What's next? I suppose the next thing you will think acceptable is a blow across the head if the five year old does not behave, that is if she is black.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #411
495. Excuse me?
I spoke about my OWN children who are CAUCASIAN, so please do NOT have the nerve to accuse me of racism. How fucking dare you.

I expect children to have manners, or a semblance of manners. I teach my kids to be polite. Maybe you do your own thing. Do you even have kids?!

I don't give a flying shit if the kid is white, black, yellow, red, dusky or anything that raises a question.

I am born of a mix of Brits and full-blood Native Americans, so please do NOT have the audacity to insinuate that I am making racist propositions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #495
498. You have a right
to your opinion and I, to mine. In this case I believe that many of the supporters of the mistreatment of a black child would feel far different if she was of a different color. Your heritage means nothing. There are Brits, Native Americans and other ethnicities who hold very negative views of black people.

And as far as children's behavior is concerned, I happen to believe that little children will sometimes behave badly but that misbehavior never justifies them being treated like adults. You can offer all the excuses in the world but sensible persons, civilized people, will never be accepting of the handcuffing of a crying frightened little girl. As I said earlier we handcuff out of control violent criminals, not five year olds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #498
539. Hmmm... I agree with you...
On the last part. This little kid not matter how much of a brat she was being should not have been handcuffed. I however do I see how you are making this race issue. It simply is not. We can not assume that every time some negative happens to a black person, that it was caused from some underlying racism. To do so is simply ignorant and does nothing more than further divide people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #495
538. Some people turn everything into an race issue...
My first instinct is that this person is trying to rile you up, but then again you never know these days. I don't think this thing has anything to do with race at all. It has to do with a poorly behaving child and police who in my opinion need to go back to training.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #538
542. Of course you don't think
it's a race issue, such horrible acts only happen to black people and to some that is acceptable. If that kid had not been black, she would not have been treated in that harsh manner. If a white kid had received such treatment you and all who support the handcuffing of a young black toddler would be outraged and calling for the heads of all those involved in treating her that way. Unfortunately, some people will always excuse unjust treatment of a black person. It's always the black person who is at fault and now they are even taking such an extreme position to the mistreatment of a five year old child. She is a five year old child and yet you seem to think she has the thinking capacity of an adult. That's ridiculous.

Africans Anericans are constantly on the receiving end of racists act. Don't try to tell me that I don't know racism when I see it. This case was an awful example of that evil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #542
565. You're right....
I wanted the little black kid to be handcuffed and placed in jail for simply because she is black. Why do I want this? Well because I am white and she is black. Of course.... All whites like me are racist right? Yeahh go white people... down with blacks... pthh whatever... You're the only one who seems to be racist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #293
453. That's the problem, I think.
The schools are so limited in what they can do to manage a child these days. No matter what they do, they are subject to a lawsuit. That's why they end up calling in the cops.

It's an absurd situation, and handcuffing was beyond the pale, although as I explain in an earlier post, a 9-year-old was handcuffed here in Lawrence because he was so out of control he broke the principal's writst and the cops couldn't get him safely out of the room without applying enough force that it would risk hurting him. Naturally they didn't want to do that, so they cuffed him to make it possible to move him safely.

But a large, violent 9-year-old who has already significantly harmed an adult is not the same as a tiny, 40-pound 5-year-old. That child could have been removed without the cuffs.

I do think the AP could have handled the child better, but she was actually following approved procedures. The procedures aren't effective, but if she had departed from them, no doubt she would have been in trouble with someone.

Basically, the schools are forced into a corner where the best they can do is follow procedure to the letter, so that when the lawsuits come (as they inevitably do, no matter what the teacher or administrators do), they can at least use the defense that they were following approved procedures.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #453
494. Yes.
Perhaps we need to re-examine procedure (I think we do), but the options you have on hand are the options you have.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #214
296. Yeah because 5 year olds are so cognizant of the repercussions of their
temper tantrums. Are you fucking daft?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #296
359. Maybe Both Sides Have A Point
Were the handcuffs excessive?

At 5 maybe she wasn't aware of the consequences of her actions; maybe she didn't know what she doing so she didn't "deserve" to be treated in such a way.

However, if she was not cognizant of the repercussions, don't you think it would make reasoning with her to calm down a little difficult (to say the least)? How do you subdue a person incapable of reason without resorting to a physical method?

I am not justifying or condemning the actions of the school or law enforcement. Maybe we could blame the girl's parent(s) for not better instilling discipline all along, although we don't know the whole story there, either. This is more indicative of a problem with society.

BTW - St. Pete is not the conservative part of Florida, it is a moderate/swing part.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #296
387. you're right, they have no idea of repercussions of their actions.
but they damn sure do know who to mess with, and who not to. I would really love to see some of you folks who are screaming bloody murder, and calling the teachers stupid put in the same situation.

I just get the feeling that those who are objecting would be unable to deal with a situation like this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #387
428. I have a very precocious seven year old and have dealt with tantrums
similar to this kids. I don't think there is anything wrong with a reasonable spanking as an option. I DO however think that there is something wrong with the police ZIP TYING A 5 year olds hands behind their back. What's next? If she had struggled a little harder would they have tasered her?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #428
457. that's just it. you can't spank somebody elses kid. you will get
sued. all you can do is what the teacher was doing, that's it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #214
306. Beyond having a tantrum and knew what she was doing?
Anyone with any training in child psychology knows that is not so.

Children in tantrums do not know what they are doing.

I suppose you believe in smacking kids till they are too scared to do anything but kiss Nazi butt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #214
464. Oh, yeah, I call the cops all the time when a 5-year-old goes nuts
What else can you do? They're the new threat to America, doncha know?

I have dealt with 5-year-olds throwing tantrums without calling the police (though I may have needed aspirin). Thousands of them do so every day, and this is the first time in history I've ever heard about the police being called in such a case. Is this now standard procedure?

It's like a dark comedy already, Dark Ages that is, but I suppose the real shock is that we have people here thinking it makes sense that the police were called and the child was cuffed. Whew!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #175
278. I agree. This is just bizarre.
As a grandmother of a four year old who was hospitalized several times as a baby due to bouts with serious illness and still has some problems with trust...was there a call to the family? My grandson is an angelic looking blue eyed blonde kid, but he can totally lose it in a stressful situation. Can you imagine what this poor little one was going through?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #175
398. That would be the solution... 1) call the cops
2) warn the child that parent(s) will be called
3) call the parent(s)
4) if parent(s) refuse to pick up the child have police retrieve the parent

Might need to refine the above procedure
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #145
195. Are you saying this was appropriate?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #195
206. yes, probably in everybodys best interest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #206
245. Well, this is the way I see it
The day a grown teaching professional cannot deal with a five year old themselves without calling out the "jack-booted thugs", that's the day they should find another line of work. Come on, the child is FIVE! What about that do you not comprehend?!! And yeah, I could have dealt with it, at least until her mother got there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #245
264. Jack booted thugs? Come on, let's keep this conversation serious
Did you watch the video. They did not act like jack booted thugs or in any way treat the girl roughly. Yes, they put cuffs on her. And maybe that was wrong. But your portrayal of the situation is way, way over the top.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #264
272. Yep
When cops with guns handcuff a five year old child, they are behaving as jack-booted thugs. And my portrayal isn't "way, way" over the top at all. You cannot prosecute a five year old for anything. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't see it that way is as bad as the principal and the cops who terrorized this little one. Shame on you for being so blase about this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #272
299. Yep (continued)
"When cops with guns handcuff a five year old child, they are behaving as jack-booted thugs."

First, I think all cops have guns so that in and of itself does not make them jack booted thugs. It just makes them cops. Agree? Second, they did not treat the kid roughly. They did not terroize the kid. The kid was out of it to begin with.

But, all that misses the point. I agree with you that they should not have put the kid in cuffs and they should not have called the police.

My point is that you are greatly exaggerating the situation when you say the police were jack booted thugs and terrorized the child. It distorts the event. It is not true. Your language is way, way out there.

And when you go to such rediculas extremes in expressing your opinion, it makes you look far more unreasonable than I see that you are. Keep our shared view on a rational note and more people will be won over to your (our) side is what I am saying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #299
324. Clearly, you don't have a clue
Are you a five year old? Have you ever had a five year old? How is it you can say she wasn't feeling terrorized?

And by the by, I really have no wish to look reasonable to you, who thinks this kid was not really harmed in any way. That position is unreasonable, IMO. She was harmed, she was terrorized, she was exceedingly frightened by the whole thing, and her ability to trust will be severely compromised by this incident.

Also, just so you know, I am not in some kind of contest here to "win" anyone over to my "side" on this. I couldn't care less if anyone thinks the way I do. However, it would seem that, from the posts I have been able to read in this very lengthy thread, more posters feel as I do than as you do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cornczech Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #324
343. I am 38 YEARS OLD and am still terrorized
when I see a policeman because of the violent way I was arrested in Washington DC a couple of years ago. My husband and I did NOTHING wrong but look like "hippies" (we were called that by the police during the entire ordeal)and question why we were being arrested...(long story, but I guarantee you that we didn't commit any crime and CERTAINLY not assaulting a police officer). So, if I at 38 am still having issues and nightmares from coming in contact with those lovely law enforcers...(shudder) image a FIVE YEAR OLD!!! I agree with the post of Scairp.

Peace, Ya'll
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #324
437. Not disagreeing with you on no need for the cops
I feel as you do that the cops were not necessary and that they certainly should not have used cuffs. Sorry if I was not clear on that. I was just off on a side note about not exaggerating the situation.

As for her being traumatized, she may have been but I still think she was in a whole lot better head space than when she was bouncing off the walls. I see it as bringing her to reality. Trauma is sometimes also theraputic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #264
298. Have you ever had you wrists zipped tied behind your back?
It fucking hurts. And do you know how they force your arms behind your back? They yank them the way a bully does. they jerk and twist them.

FUCK THE POLICE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #298
301. If you yank hard, it hurts
"It fucking hurts. And do you know how they force your arms behind your back? They yank them the way a bully does. they jerk and twist them."

If they did what you said, I would agree with you. But they did not. And fucking the police until we need them. Then they are your best friend. I have to admit I was never in cuffs. But I know police in the U.S. can be abusive even if you cooperate.

The best way to increase your chance the police will not twist and yank the cuffs is to be completely docile as they try to put them on you and while they have you in their custody. Fighting them of course they hurt your wrists and yank.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #301
302. the police are only necessary to maintain the status quo.
the police would serve no function in society without the aggregious and unfair distribution of wealth.

SO FUCK THE POLICE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #302
320. Tell that to the tweekers down the street
What do you envision the world to be like without the police? I really would like to understand your vision. Please give me some details. I had never considered what the world would be like without them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #320
380. If their was true equality and justice in our society would people be d
driven to drugs and such things? Or might drug addiction be a symptom of a decaying and decadent society? Come on, if you really believe that you need to be protected from inherently bad people you might be voting the wrong way. Our punitive judicial system is a farce. We should be trying to REFORM people. The punishment of prison and the hope that we can reform people by scaring them straight is absolutely ridiculous. How can you scare someone who has no hope or future?

So yes FUCK THE POLICE. they would be useless if we were intelligent about how organized and ran our society.

Tweekers down the street are the symptom not the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #380
435. How did you get that out of what I said?
Definately people hooked on substances need help, not prison. But, if a tweeker is at my door you can bet I'm calling the police. I'm not going to try giving the guy therapy and I sure won't be cussing the police when they show up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #301
384. Learning to be docile at the hands of the cops?
There's some indoctrination for you. Succumb fully to authority, and they will, if they feel like it, treat you like a human being.

The best way to increase your chance the police will not twist and yank the cuffs is to be completely docile as they try to put them on you and while they have you in their custody. Fighting them of course they hurt your wrists and yank.

No, the best way to increase your chances is to not be a man of color. Or a five year old black girl, apparently.

When I say FUCK THE POLICE, I don't mean the concept of the police. Obviously police are necessary. But the way cops are trained , and they way they have treated me and other men of color I know, throughout the country, over and over again, even when we have done nothing wrong, even when we are "docile," tells me they are not the "Officer Friendly" who visited my grade school once upon a time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #384
436. No argument from me on that one.
I'm certainly police treat blacks differently.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #298
403. 66% or respondents think it's ok to handcuff a small child!
we should kick this poll!
handcuffs are just not the answer for disorderly children.

I totally agree with you about not needing police in equal society.

Check out the other post below that starts with "I am a nurse" I thinks it's horsewhisperer, but not sure. Anyway, it's an excellent, reasoned argument against restraint of children.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #245
376. Jack booted thugs?
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 12:18 PM by libhill
Nah - incompetent stupid fucks, maybe. And this is the same state where terrorists were taught to fly airliners, and no one even thought to ask questions. But let a 5 year old get out of control, Johnny law is on the job. I'm impressed. Not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #206
408. to handcuff a 5 year girl--NO WAY!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #145
200. You seem to be advocating this as being acceptable?
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 05:27 PM by Horse with no Name
When you have a 5-year old child throwing a tantrum...you try to divert their attention.
Get her to do something else. Isolate her in a safe place--take her to the gym. There are a number of things you can do.
You don't handcuff her.
I have never seen a competent teacher not be able to handle a child of that age regardless of their behavior.
That tells you right there that this child did NOT have a competent teacher.

I'm surprised they didn't use a taser.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #200
205. oh god please, please. don't give me that crap
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #205
212. So you advocate torture and inhumane practices against young children?
Good to know.
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #212
217. oh bullshit. give me a break.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #212
266. Torture? Inhumane? What did they do to her...
slide bamboo under her fingernails? Put her in a cage? I'm trying to figure out if you are being sarcastic of it you really think they tortured her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #266
282. What they did is
traumatize a young child who already seems to have a lot of problems. It's terrible that people are seeking to excuse the actions of the police. They couldn't handle a five year old? They should not have that job if that is the case. That child looked so scared.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #282
294. The kid was not traumatized. It brought her to her senses.
I understand what you are saying. But the kid was not traumatized. When she found herself restrained was the first time she came back to her senses.

Yes, there was a better way to handle the situation. I agree with you. But, as I look at the video, you can hardly fault them for the way they handled it.

Did you watch the video? If not, you really should. It changed my opinion. Still, someone else on her had what I thought was a good suggestion and that was to take the girl to the gym and let her run wild until she calmed down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cornczech Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #294
345. why do ya'll say
"coming back to her senses?" Have any of you who think this been scared shitless..like a deer in headlights? I was abused pretty badly as a child...and know that when I was young and terrified..I was MOST "calm" (with fear) when faced with a stressful situation.....just my two cents. But I never threw tantrums as a child....I just beat the hell out of any bully or other kid who dared attack me in any way physically...

Peace, Ya'll
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #294
415. You don't know what
you are talking about. I saw that child's face, it was full of fear. I am an adult and have never gotten over my experience with the police. I am African American and had to call the police because someone had broken into my house. When the police arrived, I hurried to the door in my night clothes, opened it, and was faced with about twenty cops pointing guns at me. I told them that I was the person who had called but it did not matter. They screamed at me, told me to come out of the house and when I complied,made me lie face down in the dirt. They could see clearly that I had nothing in my hands but the keys I used to open the door. My hands were up and they knew I had no weapon yet they demeaned me by yelling and forcing me,in night clothes, to lie down in the dirt. A supervisor later apologized for the actions of the police. Later, another supervisor came to the house, also to apologize. That episode has fostered more distrust of the police. In fact, even when riding in my car and seeing a white policemen behind me, I feel uneasy. This child IS traumatized. She will never forget this incident and will probably always fear the police and not trust them. That is unfortunate, children should be able to trust law enforcement. How you continue to support the actions of the police against a five year old is beyond me. That child was treated so harshly because she is African American. Children of all races have tantrums but you will only see the police hancuffing a black child.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #415
508. I am so sorry that happened to you.
It never ceases to amaze me what has been done in the name of law and order to blacks. It never ceases to amaze me that most people don't recognize the profiling either.
All the money in the world from a lawsuit won't heal the wounds this baby has and will carry throughout her life from this ordeal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #508
514. Thank you.
I will never forget that incident. Unfortunately, my experience is not unique. Other African Americans can recount similar experiences with the police. I feel sorry for that child. Seeing her crying and being handcuffed really upset me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #415
608. I am so sorry you had that experience and
"That child was treated so harshly because she is African American. Children of all races have tantrums but you will only see the police hancuffing a black child."

That is so true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #266
378. I am a nurse
and worked at a major Children's hospital.
It is proven science that restraining a child of that age in an aggressive and threatening manner is harmful to their psyche. If you did it at home to your child, you would be arrested and your child would be taken away.
When the need arises that we have to restrain children for medical procedures, we calm the child down first. Explain exactly what we are going to, explain why we have to restrain and have some type of calming and soothing physical presence either having a parent standing by or a nurse holding their hand and talking to them in a soothing manner. We use reward systems.
When you do things such as grabbing and restraining a child in this manner--you create monsters. They lose their trust of the people that they were entrusted to and of the people that entrusted them to their care. You take away their complete control. This child was never given alternatives to what she was doing. The school officials herded her around like a farm animal. If they were playing basketball, you would clearly see that they were in a defensive position and you can be certain that this child felt that. They never attempted to redirect her, they never spoke in positive language-just "don't, don't, don't" and they clearly fail to have the knowledge of how to deal with children in an age appropriate fashion. They caged this child physically with their bodies then couldn't understand when she reacted like a caged animal.
This child was clearly frightened when the officers approached her.
She was sitting in a chair. She wasn't doing anything. She didn't have a weapon. Their presence alone was enough of a threat--they did not have to escalate the situation.
I had training in how to restrain children. We were told this story during this inservice that there was a child once named Jeffrey.
He went to the hospital to have a medical procedure. This was done many years ago. There was a need for restraints on him because he was out of control. This was back in the day before psychologists and child life specialists were used. He was grabbed and put in restraints while his mother and father watched. Nobody explained what was happening because they didn't feel the need to do so. He wasn't comforted by someone he trusted.When this terrified and traumatized little boy left the hospital suffering from what we now know is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, his mother commented that it changed him. He was never the happy little boy that he once was again. During counseling sessions that he was taken to when he didn't "snap out" of the depression caused by the restraining and the fear he felt when it was done, it was revealed that the restraining was one of the triggers that dehumanized the young Jeffrey Dahmer.
Personally, hearing that story during this inservice made me completely evaluate any time that restraints were needed and assess if that truly was the only thing to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #378
402. Great story and I think it really solidifies the argument against
restraints. Finally, a voice of reasoned judgement!

:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #378
504. Thanks
Former peds RN here too. :hi:

You stated this perfectly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #378
522. Agree - good post
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #200
265. You seem to have the right solution
Taking her to the gym would have been a good move. I think once in a place where she can not hurt herself I'd try joining in with her as a way to get her head outside of herself.

My husband used to do that with our daughter and it worked really well. She would throw a tantrum - flialing her arms and legs while on the floor. He would lay down on the floor next to her and do the same thing. Not mocking her, but like he was doing the same thing.

Then he would say, "hey, this is fun. Now what do you want to do." She would look at him and get up and the episode was over.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #200
323. My thoughts, exactly...
this incident sure helped her emotional condition. I'm sure if she had been older they would have used a taser. We just fought the taser battle in my county. Good grief, this kid will never want to go to school again - who could blame her?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #323
455. Why do you think she would have to be older for them to decide to
taser her? After all, they did taser a 6-year-old (in Florida, of course) earlier this year. I don't think they would consider 5 too young at all.

This country is really scary these days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #200
335. I disagree
You said: "I have never seen a competent teacher not be able to handle a child of that age regardless of their behavior."

I come from a very long line of schoolteachers, and I was a teacher myself (although at the middle school and high school levels) for almost 20 years, and there have been unruly children in school as long as there have been schools. The problem does seem to have escalated over the past several years however...and why that is, I simply do not know.

What I DO know is that some children have behavior problems - period.

My grandmother was a very well-educated elementary school teacher as was my own mother and even they occasionally had children like this. (Of course, back then, the school simply would not allow the child to return.) I have been attacked verbally and physically myself.

This little girl needs to be evaluated because there's obviously something very wrong, but I would hesitate to speculate on what the problem could be. That should be left to the professionals.

No, the police should NOT have been called. That seems a bit heavy-handed for one so young.

The child should have been allowed to stay in the principal's office or in an empty classroom with the principal in attendance until the mother arrived.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #145
255. When I was in school
kids who disrupted were sent to the principal's office.

Just the thought of being sent was enough to make me behave.


How hard it that? :shrug:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #255
291. it was enough to make you behave
because back in the day the principal had some kind of authority. The asst. principal in that article did as she was trained to do. So the kids run over the teachers, principals and probably the single mother at home (and NO that was NOT a racial remark).
I am a female old enough to remember the paddle at school, did I ever have it used on me? NOPE - it was the THOUGHT that they could. When my son went started school I signed papers for him to get the same thing (at that point I was a single mum too) - did he ever get hit when we lived overseas NOPE - THE THOUGHT OF GOING TO THE PRINCIPALS OFFICE WHERE HE COULD GET PADDLED WAS PLENTY FOR HIM.
Do I think we should bring back spankings in school? NO, not really besides the kids that deserve it would most likely have the parents that would refuse to sign - not to mention liability issues in the U.S.

The child from what I saw in the video looked like she only sat down and started to behave when she saw the cops coming - thru the window on the side of the office - you see her look that way, sit down, then cops come in. I think that child DESERVED to have the cuffs put on her. She was not hurt in any way but she had the living sh*t scared out of her and maybe that will help next time she wants to act up - hopefully, the parent/s will spend more time and attention getting this child counseling, medication if needed and help than time suing the already neutered enough school and school board.

before any one says anything - YES I HAVE 3 KIDS, 2 IN SCHOOL, 1 WILL BE BEFORE LONG, NO I'M NOT A TEACHER AND I HAVE THE GREAT MISFORTUNE OF LIVING IN FLORIDA.....
Sandy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #144
164. By the time the cops arrived, the little girl was sitting quietly
at the table. She wasn't raging anymore, even if she was still not in the mood to be cooperative.

There was no reason at all for escalating the situation again by handcuffing her. That was some seriously lousy people skills those cops displayed there.

In one of our city's grade schools, the cops did have to handcuff a 9-year-old to get him under control. The boy had gotten so violent in the classroom, throwing not just punches, but furniture as well, that they had to evacuate the other kids. Then, when the teacher and principal tried to remove him from the classroom so that the other students could return and continue with their school day, the boy kicked and struggled so violently that he actually broke the principal's wrist! The cops were called because the teacher and principal couldn't get the boy out of the classroom.

When the cops came, the boy still didn't calm down, but got even wilder and more violent. They finally handcuffed him so they could safely remove him, without getting hurt themselves or having to use too much force and thus risk hurting him.

A good-sized, violent 9-year-old boy can do some damage, and the one here was truly out of control and determined to do harm.

But that little girl in the video is so tiny that she was no real threat to anyone. Even if she had not been calmed down by the time the cops arrived, they could have removed her without the handcuffs. And she was quiet when they arrived, so that makes it even more bizarre that they cuffed her.

Wanna bet there's a huge out of court settlement?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #164
208. well there might be a out of court settlement, but I don't have a
problem with them handcuffing her. she only sat down because she saw them coming. and I'm pretty sure that after she figured they weren't going to do anything to her she would go right back into her routine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #208
219. I'm going to jump in and agree with you.
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #69
256. Beat a dog, beat a kid.
Son was hyperactive until I learned that it was all the petroleum, kerosene and coal-tar derivatives that I was feeding him. I used to hold him when he went into tantrums. Once I eliminated the the derivatives, his behavior did a 180. But we have to pump up the profits for the food industry, so we poison our children, and then, we handcuff them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
261. Did you watch the video? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
483. Well, I guess I'm gonna catch hell with this one...
I'm wondering if, in other cases, we're not chemically handcuffing kids with Ritalin and other conformity pharmaceuticals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. What? No taser?
Believe I'm gonna write a book, "What the fuck is wrong with Florida?"

And you have to go some to impress ME. I'm a lifetime resident of Texas...whoaaa
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MemphisTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You guys would just strap her to Ol' Sparky.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Or let Texas Supreme Priscilla Owen rule a change of venue
when nobody asked for it, and let a young man die from lack of health care while Ford takes more time for its appeal. Get with it, man! Lethal injection is quiet and neat, and letting the injured die from lack of care is also out of sight and out of mind.

If you wanna do tragedy, you have to be vewy vewy quiet. Right?

Believe me, there was a time (pretty long time) when I was really quite pleased to be id'd a Texan. These days, Florida is helpin' take the heat off!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Same here!
I spent the first 27 years of my life in Texas, another 7 in Jacksonville (red), Florida, and now we've spent 10 years in the Ann Arbor, Mich. area. I do my damndest to try to get away with pretending I'm a Michigander these days, but I keep saying "y'all" and "fixin' to," dammit! What a giveaway!

After blue state living, I'll never go back to a red state. If Michigan swings red, I'll move.

By the way, can I pre-order a copy of your book?? LOL

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
72. All right! Copy #1 pre-sold! Gotta start now!
(Really IS wild, isn't it?)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
97. Don't ever say that!
If Michigan swings red

Never! I will not allow it! :P

Hello fellow Michigander, I am in the Ann Arbor area, too. If you've been here 10 years, well, that's a lot longer than most people in this transient town! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #97
103. We need to have a meeting for DUers in the AA area!
I think there are more of us than we realize.
:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #97
334. Never say never
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:58 AM by AnneD
oh yea of short memory. At one point Texas was blue. I never meet a Rupub until I went to college (ok, it was Baylor and I could only stomach a year). And I think I stand on firm ground when I say we gave the country on of it's most liberal presidents LBJ (Viet Nam war aside). We also were the birthplace of Eisenhower, and by today's standard, a liberal GOP.
I can generally disguise my origins until I mention barb wire, cement. You all is a southern thang. Fixin to.....definantly Texan (I have managed to correct that with extensive electroshock therapy).... :rofl:
After living so many years in Texas, every thing else looks....puny. Oh, and don't pin Bubya on us, he's all hat and no cattle. A faux cowboy if ever there was. Like everything else in his life, he usurped the title.
Thanks Fla-for making us look good again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. I'm in Texas
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:23 AM by libhill
And my area has been pretty bad for years. They'll bust a teenage kid for standing on a corner with a beer in his hand, while the drug lords are running shipments up and down the damn I.H. 35, 14 miles away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Longhorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
364. Are you in Liberty Hill?
If so, I'll be headed your way in a couple of weeks for the Armadillo Hill Country Classic Bike Ride, my first real ride. I understand there will be about 1200 of us so if you get out and about on May 7, you're bound to see some cyclists. I'm in Dripping Springs. Howdy! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #364
368. Hello there
Enjoy the ride, you'll be seeing some nice country. If you can ignore the fact that Williamson County is redder than red. I'd move to Maine if I could, but the wife will have none of it, although she is a liberal Dem also.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cybildisobedience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
87. I'd buy that book.
It's like the state is the root of all evil.
Correction: The people running the state, the people OF it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
188. Yeah, she was one of the lucky ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
218. Someone already did. Did you not see 60 minues last Sunday?
It was interesting some of the corrption the author dug up. :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
241. Beat me to it :X n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peregrine Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
372. No, our new rules permit tasers only on restrained suspects
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #372
407. or if they are sleeping in school (see Du thread on this issue)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
612. The kid that they zapped with taser
was brandishing a piece of broken glass. He could have hurt himself or someone else a lot worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
7. OMFG...
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:05 AM by rockedthevoteinMA
This is disgusting.

:wow: (look out the police defenders will be coming soon) :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Not A "Defender" per se
I'm by no means a defender of the police in the circumstance, I believe there are other, alternative methods for which this could have been dealt with without resorting to strong-arm tactics.

But reading the article, it plainly describes a situation where the girl was out of control. Again, let me say, I dont believe this was appropriate in this case. However, my wife is a teacher here in Eastern Tennessee, teaches 7th graders English and Reading. I have heard horror stories about the things that some kids are doing and getting away with because the administration is too afraid to act. For instance, one student a couple months back went off in class, throwing desks, chairs, etc. and threatening to come back and kill everyone in the classroom (his father is a well-known gun salesman in the area). To make things worse, he has been known to do this sort of thing before. When the teachers called the office, they took their time to respond. The end verdict was a slap on the wrist phone call to the parents, who laughed and thought it was funny. Talking to other teachers, this happens VERY often in our area, and the educational community turns their head.

I guess it depends on the circumstance and the degree of competent parenting, but I would welcome just an ounce of this type of action in our area, because I am truly concerned that it is going to end up tragic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Thanks for sharing your experience. That's horrible that it occurs
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:37 AM by rockedthevoteinMA
that way... I remember a young man acting that way in my fourth grade class. (in 1987) They took him to the principals office, and in the end sent him to the "alternative public school" (behavior problem school). Sorry if my comment was a little harsh, I don't believe in handcuffing a five year old, it makes my head spin.

I wish there were some sort of way to deal with these problems... like wouldn't a psychologist have been the correct solution? (I know there probably aren't any left at schools with all the budget cuts) My head is spinning from this downward spriral our country is in the midst of.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. Interestingly enough
Most all school districts in Tennessee (at least in my general area of Knoxville to Johnson City) have a psychologist on staff to look into these behavior problems when the occur. Sounds good, right?

The problem is the superintendents (who are not elected, but appointed) have created a system over the years that is designed to keep these problems out of the light of the public, because in the end its going to cost the county/city/state more money (thus keeping their handsome pay increases in check). What did they do? They created a "Discipline Director" who was in charge of these incidents. Their standard response to anything is call the parents (thats fine, but the real trouble-makers parents in general do not care). They may even go as far as to send them to "Alternative School", which is optional and if they do go, they get to fellowship with all the other delenquents while doing zero classwork. They aren't even made to work! The end result, they come back from a vacation smug, happy and more careless than ever.

We have a systemic problem in our educational system that plagues just about every school district in America. Unfortunately, the only time that these issues are brought to light is when the Democrats are in charge of the government. The dirty little secret is that the educational system has gotten worse under George W. Bush and his farce of an education plan, NCLB. Now the parents and the children are no longer accountable, its all on the backs of the teachers. Its nothing more than a clever attempt to rule the teachers unions irrelevant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeighAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #32
120. Back in the 70s she would have gotten paddled
Generally, kids didn't act that way very often back then, because a couple of times a year you would hear the swats and howls in the hallway from a child who had gotten out of control in class and acted the fool like that. So it rarely happened. Nobody was on medication, either.

Then the psychologists came and told us that spanking was bad, now we've got millions of kids on meds, many children tormenting and terrorizing their teachers, and five year olds in handcuffs.

For 200 years American Education managed to thrive without the psychologists. Here's what I think about psychology

http://www.hereinreality.com/2002_05_05_lessons.html#76...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BadNews Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #120
235. B.I.N.G.O. NT/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #120
240. sadly, I have to agree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #120
242. Endorsing child assault?
People that hit kids should be the ones in cuffs.

Nothing like indoctrinating them into the A'murcan Culture of Violence early by sending them a clear message that it's acceptable to assault people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #242
268. It is the natural order
Like it or not, that is the only thing some kids respond to. I see it about the same as the way the animal kingdom works. A mother cat wants to get the attention of a kitten, she lets it know. Are we that different.

Saying that, I do think there are a lot of other ways that need to be tried first. I would never have hit my child or let anyone else hit her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #120
267. Sadly, you are correct.
The meds they put the kids on are horrible.

Check out http://www.ritalindeath.com/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
204. In my day, they called it the "REFORM SCHOOL"
...and you didn't wanna go there! Just the threat of reform school was enough to keep kids in line.

You have to wonder what was up with that little kid. I can't help but wonder if there was some abuse going on in the home or elsewhere. When kids act out like that, there's often something else going on behind the scenes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
227. Behavior Starts at Home
People send their kids to school expecting teachers to deal with any sort of behavior. Schools are blamed , not parents.I do believe that the percentage of unruly chidren is not as large as some seem to think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #227
258. Behavior starts in the vats of the food industry. If we were not
poisoning our children with additives, they would not act this way. Everyone I have started on natural foods has noticed a marked difference in their child's behavior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #258
544. Yes, before processed foods kids were all perfect ladies and
Edited on Mon Apr-25-05 05:05 PM by mondo joe
gentlemen.

Please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
54. My nephew had a kid like this in his Kindergarten class...
He had been transferred from another public school because of his violent outbursts against the teacher and the other children. The city paid for a "personal attendant" for the boy, who monitered his behavior every day at school. It didn't seem to have any effect on the root problem(s), because if the attendant was away from the room, the kid would start in with abusive language, swearing, and threats of violence. Disturbances like this create a chaotic and frightening environment for rest of the kids.

This is one of the real problems in the public schools... So many resources, and so much attention is going to children with problems, that the average children are not getting the attention, or the learning environment, they deserve and require.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. Precisely
I'll expand on that point. My wife says she spends on an average 1-hour class period, at least 25 minutes in discipline mode. To make things worse, that time that she spends disciplining and maintaining order is wasted because the administration will do absoloutley NOTHING to the offending kid except send them back to class. Then they wonder why her standardized test scores aren't shining and stellar.

It's taking away from the 25 kids in the class that want to learn, when a teacher has to spend half the class period dealing with the 5 who could care less and are chaotic. To make matters worse, the parents of those 5 could care less - school is just a babysitter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #58
73. Schoolteachers as babysitters.....
Troubled children seem to be the ones with parents who either don't care, or "don't have the time"...go figure.

I sympathize with your wife, and with you, too, because these problems cannot simply be left in the classrooms at the end of the day.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aintitfunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #58
101. A 5 year old and a 7th grader
do not compare. This little girl may be mean as a striped snake, but she is still a 5 year old. I am not so sure a 7th grader needs to be handcuffed, but I am absolutely certain a 5 year old should not.

I am sorry, however, that your wife has no support system to stop the nonsense in her classroom. The parents and the school administration should certainly do something.

I was born and raised in Johnson City and attended high school in Carter County. They would never have tolerated such behavior, but that was many moons ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. Clarification
Above, I believe I pointed out that I didn't feel this was warranted in this particular case. I was merely pointing out that there are other problems in the school system with older students that are not being addressed with as much regard as this one. K-6, no I dont believe that they should be handcuffed and treated this way. In that regard, we are in total agreement.

But since these kids in their teenage years have little regard for authority in the schools and have a lack of parenting, I think that in certain circumstances, they should be treated to a dose of reality. Since the teachers and the parents can't do anything, then the School Resource Officer/Police should be the last resort to take care of extreme problems, such as violent outbursts or other serious offenses. It's sad it has to be that way, its sad the school administrators are unable or unwilling to do anything, but we have to draw the line somewhere and if we have to use the current measures in place by our law enforcement community, then so be it.

By the way, the area you described is near our general vicinity. We know a lot of teachers in the Sullivan, Washington, Carter, Unicoi and Greene counties in that area of the state, and they are all battling the same problems we are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #58
167. I have an essay on my _Teacher, Teacher_ website
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 02:51 PM by tblue37
called "The Inmates Are Running the Asylum":
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/inmates.html

In it I explain why I will never enter a public elementary school classroom again.

I have taught college English since 1972. I also ran a home daycare for 18 years, while raising my own 2 kids (while still teaching). And when my kids were in grade school, I did volunteer teaching in their classrooms several time a week. I have the knowledge, the skills, and the experience to handle a classroom full of kids--under normal circumstances. But when I substitute taught in the grade schools here during the 2002-2003 schoolyear, I was appalled at the chaos in the classroom, at the unsocialized kids, and at the way the teacher's authority had been totally negated.

If my kids were that age now I would homeschool them. I would never let them go to such a school. Not only would they not learn what they should, they would learn all sorts of things they should not.

I also have an essay on my Who's Minding the Children" website called "American Kids Really Have Changed!"
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/rudekids.html

In it I describe the changes I have noticed in children over the past 25 years. The fact that so many kids were coming into my daycare completely unsocialized is one of the main reasons I closed it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #167
274. Great articles...
I really enjoyed them, and agree with much of what you said.

I am an aunt to three un- to under-socialized children, ages 6, 5 and 3. I know what you are talking about. Their parents think that discipline will shatter their fragile egos!

I cannot tell you how much tongue-biting I do in their company. It is terribly hard, because they are family - I want to enjoy the kids. But I simply do not, as their parents refuse to prepare them for life in society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #274
355. Thanks, Susanna.
BTW, you might want to browse the article index on both of those sites:

Teacher, Teacher
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/articleindex.html

Who's Minding the Children?
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/articleindex.ht...

On the homepage of each site you will also find links to all of my other sites, if you are interested in articles about
ADD/ADHD
hearing impairment
grammar and usage
poetry
essay writing

And then there's the site where I post my articles on other subjects that don't fit into the other nine sites. (I guess you could say I am a compulsive writer.)

I also have a site where I post funny true animal stories (like the one about the time I was peed on by a black panther) and another where I post funny true anecdotes about children, because after 18 years of home daycare (plus being a mother to 2 kids of my own), I have a lot of amusing stories.

That's the thing--I love kids. Kids are so great. We really have to work hard to mess them up the way our society has. And yet I can't enjoy the company of most children now, because they are so unsocialized.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #355
471. No, thank you...
:-)

I look forward to reading all your articles. I'm glad you're a compulsive writer!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #471
481. Um, maybe not all of them.
You probably have a life.

I've got 400 of 'em spread across my ten websites (and another 150 I sold a couple of years ago as web content).

Yep, 400 <LOL>.

And as soon as my semester is over and I have turned in my grade sheets, I will put a whole bunch more up.

When I said "compulsive," I wasn't just whistling Dixie.

Heh.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
197. Well
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 05:56 PM by libhill
maybe it's time to start paddling their little asses again. I remember one time in school, when I started a fight in class. By the time they wore my ass out with a paddle with holes drilled in it, I was Johnny B. Good. And that was in Jr. High. And when my parents found out why I had been diciplined, they told me "sounds like you had it coming".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #58
229. I Have 6 Friends Who Have Left Teaching Careers
because of problems like this. Brighter kids are the ones left behind.The kids with behavior problems require all the attention and time .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #229
313. You said it.
These are facts. I know 2 who have taken early retirement within the last 2 years only because they couldn't stand working with the system as it is anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #229
342. and don't forget aggressive parents...
I have watched in dismay as more and more parent drive teachers away with their 'my child can do no wrong so it must be all your fault' and 'how dare you give my genius child (who never did the work) a failing grade'. The sense of entitlement and lack of responsiblity is astounding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #58
339. This is one of the reasons I left teaching.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 07:36 AM by Daphne08
Administrators no longer provide support for their teachers. I realize there are probably many exceptions to this, but I'm speaking of the situation in general.

I taught at the high school (and occasionally at the middle school) level over a twenty year period, and each year this 'lack of support' from the principal and assitant principals seemed to diminish to the point where it was almost an impossibility to actually teach.

The general public has no idea of the difficulties involved in teaching these days.

School boards are terrified of litigation and that filters down to the principals. This fear of lawsuits is one of the factors which is ruining our public school systems! The result--discipline has gone out the window.

As I stated in an earlier post, I do think this particular child has a serious behavior problem, but I could not, and I would not speculate on the cause(s) since I personally don't have enough information or data to do so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yorkiemommie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
80. re: personal attendants
they call them ' one to ones ' in my school district here in SoCal.

because of the budget crunch, many are now ' one to twos ' and have had their wages cut.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #54
118. Children are- -
not to be thought of as intelligence personified nor treated in the manner of an adult! What they "they deserve and require" is training from birth to be a "human". In most cases of children disobedience, the parent or guardian has allowed the progression of it from early on and should be held responsible even to the removal of the child into better custodial response! A child is no longer just a child when abnormal actions create destruction of property, or their own or others lives!
A few thousand in the prisons of the US could easily recount their own destructive youth encounters not ever being addressed as serious or potentially dangerous to anyone!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #54
223. I take offense at your last statement
As the parent of a child with a disability who has a personal attendant I have heard about how many tax dollars go to helping my son be in school that should go to all the students in school.

I pay my damn taxes and I believe that I have paid for that attendant. Maybe we should rid the schools of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act or the Americans with Disabilities Act then we wouldn't have the wasted tax dollars and 'normal' kids could get the education they're entitled to.

Bullshit.

I agree that behavior disorders and flat out bad behavior detract from the classroom and the ability for teachers to teach. But do not single out students with attendants as the problem or infer that there are a drain on tax dollars for the school (there is separate funding for the IDEA which congress passed in 1974 and has yet to fund beyond 20%)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #223
311. Sorry you took offense
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 02:03 AM by eowyn_of_rohan
I sympathize with your situation, but stand by my statements.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
60. Hi, TornadoTN.
Welcome to DU! :hi:

In the situation you describe, it sounds like this was a big part of the problem: >'The end verdict was a slap on the wrist phone call to the parents, who laughed and thought it was funny.'<

Is it because administration is afraid to act, or because they are so limited in how they can legally respond?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #60
71. Thanks!
Thats the hard part to answer.

The administration (in my wifes case) has shown to be spineless on many occassions because they just dont want to be bothered. Of course, that warrants the question: what the hell are you there for?

On the other hand, a lot of administrators (teachers, principals, etc) are just tired of having no parental support and their hands being tied by ridiculous legal posturing if they get involved. These admins are the ones who have found the "Police Loophole", which involves calling the SRO (School Resource Officer) in to handle discipline situations. In this area, he has a lot more leverage than a teacher or principal, and most sherriffs still have the backbone to deal with these problems. Some of these discipline problems have led to the arrests of deadbeat parents who enjoy cooking meth, doing other drugs, beating their family, molesters, etc. I dont see where its a bad thing in the middle-to-high school environment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #60
81. Probably a combination
I'm sorry to say it but it is the truth--there is fear in some cases of being accused of racism. Look at how many here were so quick to say this girl was treated this way "because she is black". I don't mean to suggest I think "arresting" and handcuffing a child is alright, btw.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #81
89. Agreed
I tend to agree with you. It's like the old saying "a few bad apples spoil the bunch".

Just to clarify, my wife teaches in a predominatley white (over 90%) school district. My wife has essentially ZERO problems with the few black students, they tend to be among the better students in the class. Their parents are usually the most involved in their childs education and they look out for them as much as possible.

My wife has made it a habit to clarify all discipline issues at the beginning of the school year with all parents (or at least the 10 or 12 that actually bother to show up) so that everyone knows where the teacher stands on behavior and the parents know what to expect. It opens up communication and trust between parent and teacher. Now, she has to call up all the concerned parents and explain why she has not been able to cover in depth the material that she sends home and the kids are having problems understanding. Guess who are the first parents to blame the teacher? You guessed it, the parents who normally could care less about little Johnny or Sally's behavior problem, but are quick to blame when they fail.

This issue goes much, much deeper than race. Its a societal problem, contributed to by the rabid right wingers demonizing the public school teachers and framing them as lazy and "union lackeys". (This was an actual phrase used in a local election when describing teachers).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #89
102. I appreciate your insights
I don't have any children, haven't kept up with issues regarding our public schools, except as they involve my nieces and nephews. I started doing some research of my own, to learn about the workings of our local school system, when I heard that we have a school budget crisis, and that long standing programs are being cut out--programs that all of us who attended elementary school in the 1960s and 70s took for granted--such as music and art classes, and even the school milk program, which simply meant that the school provide a carton of mile every day, for each student. The more I learn, the more horrified I am by how out how vast, interconnected,and out of control the problems have become... The LIE of the No Child Left Behind program seems to have a lot to do with the budget crises... Anyway, I have a lot to learn, but thank you for your perspective.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #24
94. A student who threatened to kill people in class got a slap on the wrist?
That is incredible after all the school shootings that have occured I thought that there was almost zero tolerance for that kind of threat?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #94
100. One would think
Yet, it didnt happen. This kid was taken to the principals office for a day. The kids in that class were taken to the gym, debriefed by the "guidance counselor" that "he really didnt mean it".

His parents were called, they dismissed it as "teenage angst". The teachers were told not to make a big deal out of it. I was seeing red. I called the news media, trying to enlist their help. They refused to get involved, saying it was an "internal issue". Some parents called the school, yet never got the full story. The superintendent basically blew it off and was never held accountable. The issue then disappeared.

I believe that the kids parents ended up taking him out of school so they could "homeschool" him, saying that the Public Schools were evil, liberal, etc. Truth be known, every kid in that grade was terrified of him afterwards, because they all knew he would do it. Since the kid didnt have anyone to pal around with, he whined and cried until his parents decided to bring him home for school.

I'm glad he's not there, but I felt he should have been kicked out, sent to a juvenille facility and recieved some counseling/treatment. He had serious psychological and emotional problems. The bottom line is: this sets a dangerous precedent for the next kid that "doesnt really mean it".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
youspeakmylanguage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #94
143. There were obviously mitigating factors.
The kid and the parents are white fundie republicans. Salt of the earth. They even own a gun shop!

Nothing to see here, people. Please move along.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
109. I feel sorry for teachers
they get horribly behaved kids who get violent and if they call for help the stormtroopers come barging in.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
404. However, there is a huge difference between a 7th grader's understanding
of consequences and a 5 yr old's. My mom is also a teacher and she's had a desk thrown at her so hard that it knocked her down and she screwed up her back. She was out of work for 2 months going through physical therapy. The child only received a suspension and no police were called. The administration's hands are tied because of fear of lawsuits. She works with emotionally disturbed children and they can be a hell of a lot more out of control than the average disturbed teenager. But in any case, the strength of a 5 yr old is of no comparison to that of a 14 yr old. And their mind's have not developed fully to separate conscequences from those of trust.

Judging from the video, this was just a child being stubborn. She didn't seem to be conscience of the educator's presence. Apparently, school's police had been called on her before and that fear could be what brought her back to reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. Self Delete
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:06 AM by vi5
Never Mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
10. Why didn't they call her parents instead of the police?
I mean, seriously. She's FIVE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Maybe because SHE's BLACK ? eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. They did.
Her mother said she couldn't get there until about 3:15 or so. I think this started at about 2 o'clock.

After watching the video, I wonder how the assistant principal could have handled it any differently. The woman has more patience than I'd ever be able to find.

Apparently, there had been trouble with the child previous to this incident:
>Akins, the girl's mother, said she had complained to the school about the assistant principal's treatment of her daughter. She said the administrator has been too harsh with the girl. The police had been called to the school at least once before in response to the girl's behavior. The girl has since transferred to another public school.<
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Prepare to be flamed....
Good luck!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. lol, need to warm up my coffee anyway.
I'll hold my cup up to the screen.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. All I know is....
..if my own daughter were in the classroom I would not be comfortable with any child behaving that way and worry about what she would and could do in that state of behavior. If the principal tried to restrain her he would have been fired. If the cops did anything other than this and she continued flailing about they would have risked hurting her more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
55. You don't know WHY she was behaving "that way", do you?....
And I guarantee you that you would have been outraged had it been YOUR child that was treated this way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. See, I'd be more concerned with the WHY
And be focusing on getting my daughter the help she needs. I'd be outraged if my child was emotionally or physically injured after being an innocent bystander though, that's for sure.

I'm not condoning the cuffing - but I don't know what they were supposed to do when her PARENT WOULDN'T COME.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. Her mom was probably working for a place that would fire her for...
...leaving work. There are lots of employers out there who don't care whether or not you have personal issues that must be resolved in the middle of the day.

What the teachers and the assistant principal were supposed to do is use their collective training and real-world experience to find a solution to the issue WITHOUT calling the police. Once upon a time, school administrators were pretty good at dealing with issues like this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
213. they have to call the police, that's how they cover their asses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cannabis_flower Donating Member (386 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #59
88. What I think they could have done....
is put the child in timeout. Not in the classroom though. That wouldn't have helped. They should have a room with nothing in it but a chair and they should put the child there and come back five minutes later and see if she is ready to behave. If she is, she goes back to class. If she misbehaves again she goes back to the timeout room. It's a pretty effective discipline because when you do that the child does not get the attention she wants by acting out. Perhaps there also should be some escalating punishment such as being sent to the alternative school if even that doesn't take care of the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. No, I don't. And whatever the reason, I hope she gets help....
....But this isn't an either/or situation here. Just because I feel for whatever horrible home life or situation this kid has that causes her to act that way, and want her to get the help she needs, doesn't mean I would want my child to have to spend her school day sitting there while teachers and principals try and calm her from this rage. If this child's behavior issues are this bad she should be in special education of some sort. That's why we have such programs.

Again, I ask what you propose. Clearly she was not listening to anything that they were asking her to do. I don't think she should have been arrested or handcuffed, I simply think that there is much more to the situation on both sides of this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
96. Exactly. What this girl was doing was outrageous
Everyone needs to keep in mind there are probably around 20-30 other kids in that room, think of how they feel. I don't know if this was the right action but because of our crappy laws it was probably the only action available to them. If it wasn't then what else should they have done, let her continue?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #96
168. The child's behavior was outrageous.
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 02:40 PM by tblue37
She may be either seriously spoiled or genuinely troubled. If troubled, there could be all sorts of horrible reasons why, and she needs help, not handcuffs.

But sometimes it really is just a one-time thing with a kid, and if handled well it goes away and never recurs (though apparently this little girl was a recurrent problem.)

One little boy in my daycare, normally the sweetest child in the world, went off sort of like that in school one day. When he started yelling in class, they took him to the principal's office, where he knocked everything off her desk, dumped her coffee, and started wildly hitting keys on her computer.

He really was a good kid, and actually well-socialized, but his parents worked long hours, and when they were home, they paid no attention at all to him. Then his little sister was born, the apple of her daddy's eye, and this poor boy became even more of a non-person in his family.

His rage was simply the expression of frustration over his parents' neglect of him.

He was as good as gold in my daycare, but of course he never lacked for attention there. In school, he was one child of many, and the way things are now, only the seriously misbehaving kids can get any attention. So the little guy (who was 8 at the time) acted out and got all sorts of attention. In fact, I was able to leverage the incident to persuade his father to spend one evening a week just hanging out with his son--going to the movies, out for ice cream, to a basketball game, etc. This lasted only a couple of months before Dad went back to spending his evenings in front of the TV while the boy was expected to watch videos in his own room by himself.

But at least he got some time with his dad for a change. He did seem to feel better for it, and the unacceptable behavior never recurred.

My point is that this very good little boy acted out in school just once in total frustration over a deep need that was not being met. It got him the attention he needed for his problem, and the problem was addressed (for a while at least). If he had been in Florida, he would probably have been cuffed and hauled away. Oh, and he is black, so you know it would have marked him forever in the eyes of the teachers and administrators, and probably the other children, at the school.

BTW, he is 16 now--and still as good as gold. You would love this kid.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
124. Her behavior was fairly normal
for a child of that age, a little spoiled perhaps. It appears her problems have to do with her relationship with her teacher - that's where the problem is.

There was nothing in her behavior that warranted calling her mom. Any competent,caring teacher could have dealt with this little problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #124
162. No, It Is NOT Normal
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 01:43 PM by Crisco
If you think that's normal, I'd hate to see what hell you grew up around.

On edit: please please please tell me you were using sarcasm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #162
520. Did you watch
the first video? The one before the police came? Sorry, but for some 5 year olds that's normal behavior. And I came from a very nice home, thank you very much. The fact you have to attack me personally shows a lot.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #124
236. Wow! You Are Knowledgeable n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #124
392. NORMAL??
Please warn us if you plan to get into a profession dealing with children. That's not normal in the least. She's displaying the behavior of children that I worked with in a home for kids who had severe emotional issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #392
521. Already do
and do an excellent job of it, unlike this teacher.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
271. The help she is going to get it to put her on drugs. That worse than ...
putting her in handcuffs. Those drugs are like handcuffing a childs brain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
216. If someone showed me a video of my child acting that, I would
beat that child's ass like there was no tomorrow. that kind of behavior is bullshit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #216
259. and if anyone found out that you did
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:41 PM by bloom
child protective services would be giving you a call.


You might end up being the one in handcuffs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #259
463. nope. sorry they would not. hate to hurt your feelings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #463
500. And I hate to hurt YOUR feelings
but to "beat that child's ass like there was no tomorrow" does NOT sound like it fits within the Oklahoma law...

"Parents/other persons can use ordinary force as a means of discipline, including but not limited to spanking, switching, or paddling. 21 Sec. 844."

http://www.stophitting.com/laws/stateLegislation.php
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #500
511. sorry, but it would not happen. I know a parent that spank their
kid recently in the principals office. keep trying.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #216
523. Well, that says alot
right there. I'm sure its hard for parents who use physical violence against their children to understand other ways of dealing with misbehaving kids.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
122. that's how I feel about it. I think that they handled the situation as
best as they could. I know the police are not always right, but from what I've seen this was handled pretty good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Eh, no flames here, but I'll have some of that coffee if
there's any left in the pot.

Besides, it's a single frame, it's the look of suddenly losing control.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
51. Thanks, DS1.
Just made a fresh pot. :hi:

:donut: Have a donut, too.

Which brings us to the bumper sticker I wouldn't let my teenager put on his car: Bad Cop. No Donut. ('But why not, mom? It's funny.')

I hesitated adding the pic - it's sure to raise emotions and that's why I put up the warning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
270. Won't get flammed by me nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
38. Thanks
I had not read the whole article, so that clears some things up.

I'm not really sure what to think about this, to be perfectly honest. It's a complicated situation. She needed to be restrained, her mother wasn't coming... I guess they did what they had to do by calling the police. I still think the handcuffs were a little much, but I don't really know what else they were supposed to do in that situation.

This girl obviously has some behavior and emotional issues, and I hope she gets the help she needs instead of everyone ignoring the incident and focusing only on the action of exasperated school officials and police forced to deal with it because her parent wouldn't. People would be screaming about a school official physically restraining her too. It's a no-win situation.

And before anyone says tantrums of this magnitude are normal at that age - they're not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. How many children do you have? How many children have you...
...actually been around for any length of time?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. I have 2 children, ages 7 and almost 10
And I have been a regular school volunteer for a number of years. I'm in a pre-school and Kindergarten class 2 times a week at a minimum and have been for the past 6 years.

I've also taken classes in early childhood development.

Any other questions?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #56
63. I have two additional questions....
1. Why haven't you seen kids behaving as described in the article before now?

2. Or have you chosen to simply ignore such behavior because it doesn't fit your personal definition of "normal"?

My wife is the assistant director of a day-care school, and she sees this kind of behavior about once a month. Both of my parents were teachers...Dad for 40 years, Mom for thirty-five...and they saw stuff like this on a regular basis. And yes...I've personally taken quite a few courses in early childhood development. And yes...I have children ages 20, 7, and 4.

In what part of the country do you reside where the behavior as described in the linked article either doesn't exist or happens rarely?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Again....what should have been done?
Let's assume we can all agree that they shouldn't have cuffed her or done what they did.

What SHOULD they have done? How have you seen these types of cases handled in your many years of seeing this as commonplace behavior.

I HAVE seen behavior like that. At the special education classes that I have been involved in. Clearly this girl needs care and attention that she cannot get in a mainstreamed classroom.

Part of the problem I've found (and I don't know obviously if this is the case with this girl) is that people don't want to be told that their kid have special needs and should be in a more controlled environment so that they can get more proper care and time needed to handle their behavioral issues. Maybe that is not the case here. Maybe this school simply doesn't offer such programs. I don't think either of us know that.

But in the absence of her being in the more controlled and caring environment she clearly needs to learn, what is the solution?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #64
77. The solution IMHO would have involved...
...taking her to an empty room where she could calm down without having adults and other children around. Once she had calmed down, one of the school counsellors...not her teacher or the assistant principal...could have talked with her at length to try to determine what was making the child so angry.

Once the mother arrived at the school to pick up her child, the school counsellor could have briefed the mother on exactly what had happened, and what what steps needed to be taken to ensure that such behavior did not happen again. Or, had this behavior been a repeat performance by the child involving multiple outbursts over time, the school administation could have simply told the mother that her child was expelled from the school.

But bring in the police to handcuff a five-year-old? All that did was expose extremely poor decision-making skills on the part of the school administration for calling in the police, and the police for thinking that cuffing a child was a normal response.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #77
90. That's exactly what I was thinking
Children with these kinds of behavior problems don't "calm down" by exacerbating the situation with the introduction of even more people and frenetic stimuli. Too often the increase in outside "stimuli" -- ie, attention, noise, upset people -- proves overwhelming for a kid who may not be able to handle it and the negative reaction will only increase.

An empty "time out" room for such children would seem to be a much better alternative. Anyone have experience with this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #90
107. Ding! Ding! Ding! theHandpuppet said it, right there
The escalation happened because the child had people all over her, hovering, frenetic, following, yapping in her face... the worst thing for a child in this situation is the increased activity and noise. The best thing for her would have been calm, quiet and peace from the moment she was just being stubborn. Isolate her and find something else for her to do, give her some damned attention when she calms down (which this girl did, by the way, and that's when they cuffed her!), find out what's going on inside her little head. GIVE A DAMN.

The schools around here have school psychologists to work through this stuff when it arises. Sounds like budget cuts are making it more difficult for many schools to have that luxury, but it sure beats moments that escalate into violent tantrums and cops, all of which solves NOTHING.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #90
137. For some the time out room works. For some, they just up the violence
and/or escape. I know teachers who have had to leave 34 kids to chase one kid who runs out to traffic.

One problem is that some kids show up for school totally unprepared to get along with anyone else.

There are other problems which might show up in an otherwise delightful kid and indicate there is something in their world that needs to be examined and addressed.

Time outs are nice and work with kids who are somewhat rational. Thing is, sometimes that is not the case. Teachers do not have time nor resources to deal with more serious solutions. Administrators, facing personnel cuts and screaming parents are not well equiped either.

Some kids are a little beyond the nice, calming effects of time out and do have to be removed for the greater good. Sad but true.

What is really sad, is that almost all of it could be avoided with good parenting, supports and help for parents to learn good skills, time from parents to be with their kids. Sadly, our culture and society does not actually value these things beyond giving them lip service.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chickenscratching Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #90
150. yes yes yes
i went to a small private school when i was little and whenever anyone had problems, they'd be sent to the music room to calm down.
it worked so well!
even if two kids were having issues, they'd both be sent into the room together, and most of the time would handle the situation themselves.

this not only handled the situation but it made the children more aware of their behavior and good ways to cope with it.
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #77
105. How do you get her to out of the room?
If she won't listen to commands or even calm rational requests, how do you get her out of the room and into the other room?

Can the teacher grab her? Can he touch her in any way?

If not, then the idea of getting her to listen to the teacher and get her out of the classroom without any physical contact could very well be impossible. Then what?

I don't think we're actually disagreeing on this issue as a whole. I'm just saying that there are a multitude of forces and unfortunate issues which lead to things getting to this point and a lot more people being affected by this girl than just her, and the teacher.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #105
202. Most 5 year olds will respond to gentle touch and quiet voices
I am sure she would have taken the hand of a non-threatening adult.
Why not call DCF? They were very willing to intervene in the Schiavo case?
They have social workers they could have sent and perhaps find out why this child was acting out.
A call to them would have been more appropriate than a call to the police IMHO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
163. I Disagree
Unless you're talking about a padded room; the idea of putting an unsupervised 5 year old in a room somehwere, where she could do god-only-knows-what to herself sounds like lawsuit bait to me.

If neglectful parents (whether because they are low-life scum or well-meaning and overworked) need to have it shoved in their faces that a kid who acts up to this extent is NOT okay.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #163
239. Thank You, Crisco, I totally agree. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
185. Well for one thing, the cops didn't have to cuff her
when the arrived, she was sitting quietly and calmly at the table. She was certainly no threat to anyone, nor was she much of a disruption. She was just sitting there.

Then one cop says: "You remember me? I'm the one who told your mom she should put handcuffs on you."

So apparently he's just been itching to do it.

She sits in her chair quietly. The police move towards her, pull her up from the chair, and bring her hands behind her back. Then she starts screaming again.

Why cuff her when they've got her calmed down? That's a big :wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #63
75. Oh, young kids have tantrums
I'm not saying they don't, some definitely do! I do think that violent outbursts like this are pretty rare all things considered though and are best handled by a caring, calm approach and if necessary, restraining by a parent. Rare, by definition, isn't normal. Chalking it up to a "normal tantrum" doesn't get this poor little girl the emotional help she needs.

I certainly hope that your wife isn't witnessing a child hitting a teacher or school official in a violent outburst on a monthly basis. That is incredibly sad.

It is a very complicated situation. I want to be clear that I don't in any way condone handcuffing a 5 yr old, but I am also not going to pass a blanket judgment on how it was handled because I wasn't there and I don't know their full history in dealing with this little girl and her parents. I do think that the handcuffing went too far, but I know that if a 5 yr old was punching me and acting out and not responding to any verbal calming my first instinct would be to restrain her in a caring hug and let her cry and thrash it out. But a school official can't do that... *shrug* I just don't know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #63
135. I have studied and worked with young kids for years too and only saw
this sort of 'tantrum' three times, twice when I was a kid myself and we had to deal with a 9 year old total psycho who actually held a girl captive when she was walking home for lunch and then went into the girls rest room and urinated on everyone there. That last trick, he pulled twice and it finally got him removed from school.

That was back in the day when principals could actually touch and retrain kids too.

Working as a preschool aid, I have had to pick a kid up and drag him off other kids (smaller kids) several times and physically keep him in time out area by picking him up and returning him every 40 seconds. He would swear and swing at me, but my arms are MUCH longer and he couldn't bully me like he did the kids. Then he resorted to threats of lawsuits! HE WAS 4 YEARS OLD! Told him to sue away all he wanted to but nobody in the class liked his behavior so he might have trouble with witnesses. He finally started behaving like a human being and I hear he is doing pretty well in school. He mom is one of those who makes horrible threats to him but never actually enforces any rules.

Not all kids are violent. There is a difference between a typical tantrum and seriously violent behavior. It is not all the same. There are degrees and then sometimes a problem becomes chronic.

Kids learn at an early age if they can get away with anything. And those kids are not secure nor happy. They will keep pushing the envelope to test and get attention. They keep swinging blindly for the fences and when there are no fences, the swinging can get pretty bad.

We have some high school kids who absolutely refuse to do class work or even let teachers talk, because they know their parents will throw the tantrums for them if anyone tries to suggest that 14 year olds are NOT in charge. One kid was masturbating in class. His mom doesn't think there is a problem. THAT is the problem.

Meanwhile, what are teachers supposed to do? It is a pretty common complaint that the administrators will not back them up. Too afraid of confrontations with spoiled tantrum throwing parents and lawsuits.

Kids come to school with no intention of getting along cuz too many of them have never had to face any consequences for bad behavior all their young lives. That does not do them any favors. They never learn any coping skills, have no understanding of self control or self calming and are totally egocentric. That makes them hard to like as they get to school. Then their behavior problems increase cuz they are lonely, hurt and have no idea why. They are confused that everyone else does not understand they are in charge and everything they do is cute and OK. They have no understanding that there are consequences for actions. For an example of this taken to an extreme, look at the present occupant of the White House!

Teach the kids to get along. Teach them to honor themselves and others. Teach them by respecting them BUT make sure they understand they are expected to return the favor. Make sure there are consequences they can count on for being good and consequences for behaving inappropriately.

Tots learn and all learning has to start early. The lessons have to be age appropriate but they are smart and they learn, if someone bothers to take the time and be patient to educate them. Little people are VERY smart. We just have to stop being lazy and stop expecting them to raise themselves. Too many parents just don't teach kids anything then yell when the kids get into trouble at school.

Time to stop blaming teachers for not doing with 30 kids what parents wouldn't do with one or two.

I remember how scared and upset I was as a kid when a classmate would go off and behave poorly. I can't imagine how kids today must feel with more and more aggression all the time around them. I do know how frustrated and angry many teachers are. And I know too many good ones who got out of the profession cuz it hurt them too much to worry about kids whose parents just don't give a damn.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #135
170. Excellent post.
You might like to read my essay "What's the Matter with Kid Today?"--also on my Who's Minding the Children? website:
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/kidstoday.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #170
207. Hey, tblue37, thanks for the link to your essay
It makes a lot of sense clearly and honestly.

Hey, the other day, Havocdad said there was an article in the Billings Gazette about a new business to help parents. They will do every thing from potty training the tot to teaching the older child to shoot hoops. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry! His therory is that most people just have kids so they can discuss them at cocktail parties and reunions. He is totally disgusted at the parents he sees who just can't be bothered with actually raising their kids.

The parents he sees are the lucky ones who do not live with the problems of poverty, working 2 or 3 low wage jobs to keep body and soul together. The ones he sees can afford the time with their kids, but choose to buy useless toys and gadgets instead. Breaks his heart as he really loves kids and see the damage done to them and to our culture by the lack of really caring for them.

Again, thanks for the link to the great essay.

hm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #135
215. excellent post, and to the point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #135
333. I totally agree
I work Early Intervention and see kids with speech or language disorders in their homes for therapy. I have a few kids who will scratch at me, hit me, or kick. Not a lot, but a few.

All it takes from me is a firm voice, and I save this firm voice exactly for this occasion, where I say, "You do NOT HIT ME." They usually try again, more gingerly, looking at me with some skepticism and I repeat it again, firmly: "YOU DO NOT HIT ME!" That's usually the end of it. They get zero attention from me after that if they do persist, and they realize it's more fun not to hit me so they can continue playing.

When I do have to ignore tantrums, or be firm in not allowing any physical violence from these kids, many parents look like they want to "save" their child from me - "Poor Johnny, my baby!!!" I tell the parents that it is unacceptable for a child to hit me, any adults, or any other children. But I'm often amazed at how many parents accept this physical punishment from their kids. I don't accept it, and it doesn't happen again to me with the kids I work with.

Oh, and Early Intervention is birth to three.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
127. Watch the first video
the one before the police arrive and see if you say the same thing. Her behavior was not that bad and only escalated because the teacher didn't know how to handle the situation.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
128. thank you. can you imagine what she could do to one of her
classmates in a state like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
169. No, such violent tantrums are not normal, especially not at that age.
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 02:53 PM by tblue37
And I speak as someone who has raised 34 children, most of them from infancy.

However, nowadays, this sort of tantrum really is quite common, because parents don't have a clue about what is normal behavior or how to teach their children to manage their impulses and anger and behave in socially aceptable ways.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
47. I don't give a darn how she was behaving...you don't CUFF A CHILD!!!...
What the HECK are you thinking????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaRa Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
68. Agreed. You can restrain a 5 yr. old w/o cuffs. Ridiculous. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
82. what do you suggest?
I think in an ideal world you are correct. However, the child is dangerous to herself and others. What do you suggest?

We had a situation in my daughter's preschool (yes--preschool). A violent boy would loose it at least once or twice a week. He would throw things, hit and kick the teachers and other children. The parents were doing nothing. Finally, the school mandated that if the parents were not sitting there with the child, he could not be in class.

The teachers are in a bad position in which they cannot restrain without allegations of assaulting the child (likely from some on this forum). The police needed to be called. And the child needed to be restrained. Poor thing. I wonder what is going on at home.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #82
142. Wasn't it just last week we had a news story about a mom calling 911
because her 12 year old was kicking holes in doors. The 911 operator got into trouble for asking "Did you want us to come over and shoot her?" :eyes: The mom got all offended by the question.

So, she can't control her own kid, calls 911 for what is clearly NOT an emergancy, then gets in a snit and throws her own tantrum cuz the operator pose a satirical question pointing out the foolishness of her calling 911.

THAT is a symptom of the disease folks. Nobody is raising too many of the kids and then kit the panic button when the kids act like wild critters.

The kids get worse cuz they have never been taught how to behave and just esclate the behavior which have worked so far to get what they want.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
427. Okay, so what was their Plan B? The cops?!
You know, that's just nuts. Most parents aren't going to be able to magically materialize in these situations.

I have a family member who went out of his own control until we finally found proper treatment. He's 6'5" and 300 lbs. And I had no option to call his parents.

What part of "mental health issues" do you guys not understand?

The staffer could have had a PLAN. She could have enlisted a partner, who would hopefully have already drilled this with her, and together taken the kid to a secure space until they contacted someone to help.

Calling the cops is completely inappropriate, but easier than actually thinking it seems or dealing with the realities of a public school.

This school should be shut down. It's obviously not safe for ANYONE.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
172. Kids that act like that probably won't listen to parents either
The parents probably either don't know how to, or refuse to, discipline their kids.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. Don't cops in Florida
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:14 AM by libhill
Have any real Law Enforcement work to do? With all of the illegal drug traffic that goes through there, they should have better things to do than bust a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum. Fucking ridiculous. This whole goddamn nation has gone insane.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. OK, "they" called the police so the police HAD to respond ...
... at what point did it seem to be the right thing to HANDCUFF a 5 year old?------Imagine what the fools would do to an adult ....

Is there no training for police there?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. Does make you wonder -
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:33 AM by libhill
Too bad Florida law enforcement wasn't that zealous about suspicious Middle Eastern men taking flying lessons. Probably out raiding a pre school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
179. "Don't cops in Florida",Have any real Law Enforcement work to do?
Yep they sure do, and having to stop and respond to bullshit calls like this, just interferes. The police shouldn't have been called. this should have been handled by the school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #179
192. Amen to that
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 05:01 PM by libhill
Agreed. There should have been some other option for the school authorities to take. I find it difficult to believe that a facility full of adult staff, could let a 5 year old child take control of a situation like that. Ditto the police. At the very least, seems like a child protective service Officer or mental health Officer should have responded to that call. Many P.D.s around the country are starting up specialist units like that, for these types of situations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
17. Why don't they have a clean well lighted place with a caring adult
That girl needs some serious attention, sounds to me. Not handcuffs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
19. Seems like she got caught up with 3 yrs or parenting when those cuffs
clicked on, and finally there was a repercussion for going fucking nuts in class.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
21. My son is five. This makes me vomit.
Kids have been throwing tantrums since the dawn of mankind, yes, even violent tantrums. The media acts like today's kids are somehow different from every other generation of kids that has ever been in existence. This little girl needs help in learning to control her frustration, but she is not a fracking criminal! Jeez.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. The problem is that the school is not allowed to touch her
If schools weren't sued right and left for touching children someone could have held this brat down until she calmed down.
I blame the partent(s) and I blame society for creating the lousy parent(s).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
112. Not necessary
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 11:07 AM by Demgirl
They could have dealt with this situation without touching her. What are they teaching education majors these days?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #112
356. How would you handle it without touching the child?
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 10:40 AM by MollyStark
pray tell?

Did you watch the film. The child kept hitting and kicking and destroying property.
Years ago that child would have been held with her arms crossed in front of her until she stopped struggling and listened to reason. Then she would have been sent home to a parent who would have said or done something besides blame the AP and teacher for her daughters lousy behavior.
If the child has emotional problems then she needs intervention. But there is no reason she should have been allowed to tear the classroom apart and then the VP's office too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #356
491. Good question
Philosophical differences on law enforcement and race and education and child rearing aside, the assistant principal was faced with a bad situation and had to solve it in the moment. A child who is acting like this child was cannot be allowed to assault people in the school and destroy property, so the school HAD to deal with the immediate situation the best they could.

The problem is so large and the options are apparently very limited. The school removed the child from the view of other children, which was the right thing. They asked for assistance from the parent, also the right thing. But they could not touch her or use any kind of restraints on her.

The school's options were so limited that they had to seek outside intervention. It is state law in my state that if a child in public school threatens to kill another person, the police MUST be called.

But the real issue people seem to have is with the handcuffing. Whether that was excessive depends not just what is on the film, but on the child's history of behavior. It seems that she calmed down when the police came, and that tells me that she has some control over her behavior and is using her outrageously violent outbursts to intimidate and get her way. But I could be wrong and it could be a medical condition, or a situation of family abuse that is causing her to act out this way.

There certainly need to be intervention. There needs to be family counseling and maybe, just maybe, this event is a stimulus that will cause that to happen. It sounds like to me that this child has lots bigger problems than having handcuffs placed on her wrists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #112
560. Teaching Education Majors learn to teach - not to police the disturbed
children inappropriately allowed in the school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #560
582. Self Fulfilling Prophecy
Teachers need to learn that their own expectations have a tremendous impact on a child's behavior - good or bad.

And a teacher who doesn't understand child behavior isn't capable of doing her job. Teaching is all about child behavior, you can't artificially separate the two.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SCDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. Exactly
when I was 5 and my brothers used to tease me constantly I would throw a tantrum and cry to the point I would throw up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
146. yeah, but in my day you threw a tantrum like that and your ass
would be on fire. they can't do that anymore, they can't even hollar at the kids any more. that video shows you what the society has been reduced to.

Folks this is why the republicians are winning. this little incident will get national attention, and those that speak out against the handcuffing will be labeled liberal and a democrat. those who are ok with it will just sit back and count the votes from the swing voters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #146
176. It is sickening
to see people supporting the police cuffing a five year old child and I suspect this behavior is acceptable because the kid is black. This incident did not have to escalate. Idid so because of the attitude of the administrators and the police. All over this country black parents can tell of incidents in which their children were treated differently than white children who engaged in similar behavior. I have witnessed such occurrences myself. A black kid is mouthy and he is suspended. A white kid does the same thing and the parents is called in and the white kid is given a slap on the wrist. Just last week my friend's son who had failed a grade, was told by a teacher he was too big to be attending regular high school and it was suggested that he attend night school get his GED. This kid had not committed any violent act at all but was fooling around in the hallway as other kids do.

Justifying the handcuffing of a five year old is disgusting. All the police had to do was restrain her hands and feet. One cop could have held her feet, the other her hands. She was a five year old, a five year old. Now it's OK to cuff a five year old? If that is OK then this society is more sick than I ever believed. The sad fact is that black children are often treated differently by administrators and teachers. This kind of treatment would never have been given to a white child and everyone knows that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #176
209. bull shit, I'm black and I don't have a problem with this. you
can't be naive enough to think that you can forcibly hold someones hands and feet are you. if you are I would love to see the look on your face when that poor sweet little innocent child's mother hit your ass with a lawsuit.

please, please, lets get real about this particular incident. this is why liberal has become a bad word. I can guarantee you this is just what the repugs want to bring home those swing voters. and as a BLACK person I can tell you right now that a lot, A LOT of blacks will not have a problem with this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #209
286. Bullshit right back at you.
And I say once again that the action taken against this child was because she is black. Children of all races have tantrums just like this kid but are never handcuffed. In fact the cops would never be called to handle a five year old child. People like you eagerly support the cops when the person being injured is black but it's another story if the child is of a different color. Nothing that child did justified the way she was treated. She is further traumatized and will probably always hate the police. Furthermore, as a mother, I would have preferred to have the police restrain my child's hands and feet rather than put handcuffs on her, something she will never forget. What they did was despicable and they did it only because of her race and ensured that there will be a lawsuit. If you, who claims to be black, can't see that, well.........
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #286
319. Ai ai ai....Okie, I feel your pain
"And I say once again that the action taken against this child was because she is black. "

You're right, the fact she was out of control had *nothing* to do with it. The fact they did most of what has been suggested here (being quiet and calm, removing her) and it failed had nothing to do with it. I'm sorry, but to make a statement like that, based on the facts (or in your case, the utter lack thereof), is just asinine.

"People like you eagerly support the cops when the person being injured is black..."

In case you were wondering why the Dems (my former party, I'm now an Independant) are getting they're butts kicked recently, it's in no small part because of comments like that... Baseless ad hominem attacks like that--particularly the race card--aren't helping your cause. :eyes:

"She is further traumatized..."

Further? Where was the original trauma? And I'm willing to bet her classmates, the teacher, and the Assistant Principle were just as "traumatized". Why aren't they getting any sympathy?

"...something she will never forget."

You say that like it's a bad thing. Maybe I'm being too Pavlovian here, but if she associates that "trauma" with her bad behavior, maybe, just MAYBE, she won't do it ever again...

"What they did was despicable and they did it only because of her race..."

Not as despicable as your blatant attempt to portray Okieinpain as a racist, I assure you. Nor your baseless insinuation that anyone involved was motivated by racism.

Warning! Do not follow the following link if you can't handle:
1. Swearing.
2. Anything that strays too far away from being "PC".
3. Have absolutely no sense of humor whatsoever.

For those of you with stress-free lives, go here for a quick laugh over the "race card":

http://www.illwillpress.com/hatta.html

;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #319
417. Baloney
Lots of children get out of control but the cops aren't called. Even teenagers get out of control but many times the cops talk to them and don't handcuff them. Stop making excuses. THIS WAS A FIVE YEAR OLD. This action of the police is acceptable to some because the child involved is black. If you think my telling the truth is playing the race card, so be it. Calling black people racists who complain about racism is just another attempt to silence them.

THE MISDEEDS OF BLACKS ARE OFTEN SEEM TO BE FAR WORSE THAN THAT OF WHITES WHO HAVE COMMITTED SIMILAR ACTS. THAT IS A FACT THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE WISH TO DENY.

Your assertion that trauma will make this child behave differently is absurd. All it has done is foster bitterness and fear. Harsh treatment doesn't always change behavior;it just makes children meaner and they carry that meanness into adulthood.

As far as your assertion about that other poster, I call it as I see it. There are people who are always ready to defend others who have treated blacks unfairly. They always try to find excuses to justify the harsh action. I've seen certain people even defend the police who have shot unarmed black men who were running away from them and are no threat.

This was racism, pure and simple. When have you ever heard of a five year old child other than an African American being handcuffed by the police. Black children are not the only ones to have tantrums in school. You haven't heard of it because it doesn't happen.

As far as your wondering why the administrators aren't getting any sympathy, they don't deserve any. They completely mishandled this situation causing damage to a five year old. It's most unfortunate that you are unable to realize that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #417
479. Pathetic.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 01:47 AM by Beel2112
"Lots of children get out of control but the cops aren't called."

True. But sometimes they are called; exceptions do exist, and this was one of them. So you have no point here.

"Even teenagers get out of control but many times the cops"

So you admit the cops do come at times, thus verifying my point above?

"This action of the police is acceptable to some because the child involved is black."

Yes, to some, it is. And those "some" are racists. But it was acceptable to "some" of us because the kid was out of control and had it coming to her, not because she's black. See, I can use generalizations to "prove" things too. :hi:

"If you think my telling the truth is playing the race card, so be it."

Well, therein lies the problem. You're welcome to believe that what you think is the truth, but that doesn't make it so. I'm afraid your opinions don't dictate reality. Okie simply stated the fact that this kind of stuff wasn't put up with in the past. You then turned around and made an @ss out of yourself by screaming racism.

"Calling black people racists who complain about racism is just another attempt to silence them."

Playing the race card is an attempt to silence someone too. And for the record, I had no idea you were black.

"THE MISDEEDS OF BLACKS ARE OFTEN SEEM TO BE FAR WORSE THAN THAT OF WHITES WHO HAVE COMMITTED SIMILAR ACTS."

"Often". Again with the specifics. But again, I'll give you this because in and of itself, it proves absolutely nothing in regards to this specific case. You're assuming because it's true in some cases, that's the case here. There are far more logical--and likely--reasons for the handcuffing, such as her outrageous and violent behavior.

"All it has done is foster bitterness and fear."

If that fear of getting cuffed again for misbehaving keeps her in line in school so that the other 20-30 kids can learn--GOOD. I will take that trade--she is no more important than the other kids in her class.

"As far as your assertion about that other poster, I call it as I see it."

So do I. And as everyone with half a brain can see, you played the race card. And I agree with Okie--people like you, who make asinine claims based on emotion and not reason, are part of the reason the Democratic party has gotten thumped the last few elections.

"There are people who are always ready to defend others who have treated blacks unfairly."

Just as there are always people who are quick to scream "racism!" whenever they see something they don't like. The facts here are:

1. She was violent and misbehaving.
2. She calmed down only when the police arrived.
3. If the police had done nothing, she would have more-or-less gotten away with her bad behavior with no consequences. To quote my favorite band, "Can't do the time? Don't do the crime." (Rush. (The Canadian rock group, not the pundit!)

"They always try to find excuses to justify the harsh action."

Does it ever occur to you that maybe the harsh action WAS justified? (Or that you're making blanket generalizations?)

"I've seen certain people even defend the police who have shot unarmed black men who were running away from them and are no threat."

That's all well and good but:

1. Your personal experiences are biased and statistically insignficant.
2. Much like most of your argument here, this is a red herring; it's totally irrelevant to the situation at hand. But nice try at attempting to make it emotionally charged. Not that I can blame you, because as far as facts and logic go, your argument is beyond hope.

"This was racism, pure and simple."

I might find your argument a tad more effective if you had more than anecdotal evidence and the tape didn't show a child that was way beyond any "normal" disciplinary problem . But feel free to keep repeating your "fact"--some sucker will eventually parrot you. Though I'm sure with such a strong case, you'd never have to resort to repetitiveness in lieu of reason...

"When have you ever heard of a five year old child other than an African American being handcuffed by the police. ... You haven't heard of it because it doesn't happen. "

Or it could be I'd never heard of it because the plaintiff's sleazy lawyer didn't realise videotape of the incident in a pathetic "argument by emotive language" case. You don't suppose the videotape is the reason this made headlines, right? You don't suppose THAT'S why this is a big case, and not the fact that the girl happens to be black? It couldn't possibly be that simple, now could it?

Oh, and you really should be careful with your argument by incredulity/generalization (your "you haven't heard..." line). See, what *I* hear isn't significant. But what's even more damning is that a 5-second Google search proved you wrong; it does happen (or at the very least, has happened before). A 5-year old was handcuffed just a few months ago:

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041215-065745...

And of course this assumes that EVERY handcuffing of a 5-year old (which are--presumably--never actual arrests and therefore may not have to be reported by the police) is reported in the news.

From the article above, you may notice something--race isn't even mentioned. Why is that? It couldn't be because race wasn't a factor there (just as it wasn't here--until you and others brought it up)?

"...the administrators aren't getting any sympathy, they don't deserve any."

Well, they get my sympathy because I've been in their shoes (but with older kids). And what about the girl's classmates? You seem to have--yet again--forgotten all about them.

"They completely mishandled this situation causing damage to a five year old."

Even if they had handled it differently, there's no way of knowing it would have worked. They showed an exemplary level of patience with a problem child who was out-of-control. They did the best they could; this kid was beyond their means to control. So the police show up and take control. Like it or not, the police resolved this situation. Was it the ideal solution? No, probably not. But it worked, and if this kid learned the lesson, than she is better off for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #479
480. Behavioral problems - possible cause?
http://www.allaboutmoms.com/bedkids.htm


"A variety of emotional problems may be found to lie behind a child's behavioral difficulties. Among the most common are: insecurity resulting from family disharmony or a broken home, jealously of another member of the family, lack of affection, disfigurement or disability, over rigid discipline at home or at school, fear of failure or feelings of guilt, whether real or imaginary. Sometimes emotional problems resulting in behavioral difficulties proves too deep rooted to be identified and treated by the parents alone. In these cases, a professional counselor, social worker or psychologist should provide the child with the guidance they seek"

This kid had long term behavioral problems for years, as evidenced by her mother calling the police on her when she was three. I don't see the word police in this paragraph as far as seeking treatment for this child. Too bad the mom didn't think to get help from a mental health professional before calling the cops. If she had, this event could have been avoided.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #479
501. Blah, blah, blah
Just more excuses to justify what is inexcusable. There is no justification to handcuffing a five year old. I did not even bother to read all of the nonsense you posted. Just another offering of excuses for treating blacks unfairly. All this incident has done is caused more black parents to worry about their children. I have friends who worry each time their teenagers leave the house, fearing they may have an encounter with the police. Some have even advised their sons not to purchase late model cars because they know they will be more likely to be harassed by law enforcement. Several of my friends sons have been pulled over by the cops many times, one even put into shackles and taken to the station. No charges were ever filed because the youths weren't violating the law. Don't try to tell me, a black person, about my experiences or those of other black people in a society where many disrespect them and always support the police. I know racism when I see it. And it is purel racism when a five year old black child's tantrum is considered worthy of her being handcuffed.

I stand by what I wrote. If this child had been white, no cops would ever have been called. I don't care how out of control she was, she did not deserve to be handcuffed. It's a sad day that adults will accept the handcuffing of a five year old child, but then, they are only accepting of this if the child is non-white.

It is so disheartening to see people in the twentieth-first century willing to accepting the mistreatment of a defenseless five year old. I am reminded of the pictures I've seen of the mobs celebrating at the lynching of a black man, woman and child. For some individuals, black people are always deserving of the worst of treatment. I guess it will be a long time before racism is eradicated in this society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #501
507. Classic example of why racism isn't taken seriously enough.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 04:55 PM by Beel2112
"Just more excuses to justify what is inexcusable."

Your knee-jerk reaction of claiming racism is inexcusable, yes.

"I did not even bother to read all of the nonsense you posted."

You mean the stuff where I showed you why you're (embarrassingly) wrong? Yeah, I can't say I'm surprised you're pretending it isn't there.

"I have friends..."

And yet again, your personal observations can form your opinion, but they don't dictate the reality that this kid was out of control and the police successfully ended the situation.

"Don't try to tell me, a black person, about my experiences..."

:rofl: I never did any such thing, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm pointing out that just because you think it's racism doesn't make it so. I think the handcuffing was done because of the situation, not the kid's race. I base that on the facts present in the article (and particularly the video): the background/history of police contact, the teacher's comments, and the child's behavior. What do you have going for your argument, other than "Racism is a factor in other unrelated situations, therefore that must be the case here."?

"I stand by what I wrote."

And I stand by what I wrote--that you (and others here) are trying to turn this into a racism issue without any evidence.

"If this child had been white, no cops would ever have been called."

Your proof of that is what, exactly? That it hasn't--to your knowledge--happened before to a white person? See above.

"I am reminded of the pictures I've seen of the mobs celebrating at the lynching of a black man"

OMFG--now you're comparing handcuffing an out of control kid with lynch mobs? You do realize that any sensible person--racist or not--would have to fight the reaction to laugh in your face if you said this out loud, right? You do realize you're hurting the fight against racism with this absolutely ridiculous analogy, don't you? That blatantly ridiculous statements like this are why many people won't take racism seriously enough?

"For some individuals, black people are always deserving of the worst of treatment."

I won't deny that. However, there's no evidence that the people involved in this case fall into that category. Given your risible analogy above, it looks to me like--ironically enough--you're on a witch-hunt for racists.

"I guess it will be a long time before racism is eradicated in this society."

I agree--and in my eyes, your actions/statements above are only going to delay it. (It's also my personal belief that we'll never fully eradicate it.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #507
517. Oh please spare me.
I know racism when I see it and calling people who oppose racism racist just won't work. When do you ever see the police dishing out to white youths the kind of treatment given to blacks? When has a white man ever been shot 41 times in his own doorway? When do you ever hear of a white youth being beaten and head slammed against a car with his hands handcuffed behind his back. When have you heard of a white girl sleeping in a car being gunned down by the cops. And when have you heard of a white man being beaten fifty times by the cops after he had been subdued. Why do we never hear of the cops shooting white kids in the back as they are running away and are no threat? Black people have to live with Driving While Black. Whites have no such worry. The plain truth is that in this country, many law enforcement officers are prejudiced against African Americans and treat them far more harshly than they do members of the majority community. And there is prejudice among educators, also.

Many black parents, some in my family, can recount instances in which school officials meted out far harsher treatment to black kids than they did for white students guilty of similar offenses. A black kid misbehaves and he is shifted to Special Ed classes or thrown out of school. A white child does the same thing but does not suffer the same fate.

It is you who have the problem. If individuals with your attitude are not racists, they certainly are persons in deep denial about the disparity in the treatment of blacks and whites in this nation.

All you do is spout more right wing rhetoric straight out of Rush Limbaugh. The right wingers use code words which most blacks and progressive of other races recognize immediately as referring to African Americans. Such phrases as "victim mentality" "law and order" "welfare queen" are code words used for black people. Yes,it will be a long time before racism ends and it's because so many individuals share your views. It's easier to blame the victim of injustice rather than seek ways to end it. But then again, such persons may not really want to end it. I sometimes think that there are people who would be more than happy to see a return to Jim Crow.

Racism is ugly and I suspect most blacks don't like to talk about it. But if black people had not spoken up, we'd still be living under racial segregation with all of its horrors. I suppose you think Martin Luther King, Frederick Douglas, and others should have remained silent?

So far, I have been able to trace my ancestry all the way back to beginning of the nineteenth century yet I sometimes feel like an unwanted foreigner in the land my people helped to build. And I am not alone in feeling this way.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #517
528. When you're in a hole...
...the best thing to do is stop digging.

"I know racism when I see it..."

So, pray tell--what did you see in the video that was racist? Ignore your anecdotal (and thoroughly irrelevant) evidence and focus on just the video. There was NOTHING racist there. Nothing.

"When do you ever see the police dishing out to white youths the kind of treatment given to blacks?"

Try turning on "Cops" sometime. And FYI, more whites are killed by cops than blacks. But you are right--they never seem to make the news. Oh, and please note the source:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0428-04.htm

There's also a far better explanation than racism for prejudice against blacks by police officers when it comes to violent crimes: blacks are 7 (yes, seven; 6.9 to be specific) times more likely to commit homicide than whites. (http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm ) They are also responsible for a grossly disproportional amount of violent crimes. (http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0202.pdf , table 40) And no, these unfortunate facts come not from Rush Limbaugh but from The Bureau of Justice Statistics: http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/welcome.html .

"When has a white man ever been shot 41 times in his own doorway?"

How many times has that happened to a black man? Once? (Before you fly off the handle, yes, once is too much.) And how is that relevant to a 5 year old girl getting handcuffed years later and hundreds of miles away by different cops? (I'm assuming you're referring to the incident in NYC?) Your examples here are largely one-shot deals. You're taking the absolute worst-case scenarios and trying to pass them off as standard behavior by the police. It's akin to me going to a federal prison, finding the most violent black criminals there, and trying to pass of their behavior as indicative of blacks in general. I think we can both agree that that would be absolutely moronic? Your argument is only going to work with people with very poor math skills. You might want to pick up a little book called Innumeracy.

"The plain truth is that in this country, many law enforcement officers are prejudiced against African Americans and treat them far more harshly than they do members of the majority community."

The plain truth is that your argument is utterly worthless; "many" is not descriptive. Many cops aren't prejudiced against blacks. What proof do you have that the officers in question here fall into your category and not the other? Answer: Nothing but other totally unrelated stories of prejudice and hypotheticals. What do I have to place them in my category? "...the facts present in the article (and particularly the video): the background/history of police contact, the teacher's comments, and the child's behavior." Yes, maybe this was done out of racism. But surely you can see that the preponderance of evidence lies on my side of the argument?

"...far harsher treatment to black kids than they did for white students guilty of similar offenses."

How similar? And did they have similar track records? (And yet again, you're using personal observations in lieu of statistically significant data.)

"It is you who have the problem."

Well, if having common sense and using reason instead of emotion is a "problem", yes, I guess I do.

"If individuals with your attitude are not racists..."

Ooooooookay....

"All you do is spout more right wing rhetoric straight out of Rush Limbaugh."

I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, nor have I read any of his books. And unlike yourself, I've been sticking to facts and logic.

"Such phrases as "victim mentality" "law and order" "welfare queen" are code words used for black people."

Good to see you read my other comment. Of course, I was talking about the other students too, as they were victims as well. Yet you focused on the one kid that actually started it all. That's why *I* used the term. As for right-wingers, they're free to use it as they please. But feel free to try to tar me with that wide brush of yours.

"I suppose you think Martin Luther King, Frederick Douglas, and others should have remained silent?"

Well, if you did, I'm afraid you'd be wrong. Again.

"So far, I have been able to trace my ancestry all the way back to beginning of the nineteenth century yet I sometimes feel like an unwanted foreigner in the land my people helped to build."

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but sympathy isn't going to make your argument any better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #528
545. Don't be ridiculous
Just more right wing talking points. I did not even bother to read beyond the first few paragraphs. I knew exactly where you were going. Just another attempt to justify the mistreatment of African Americans. I've heard it before. Some people have no minds of their own. But wait, perhaps they do, and love Limbaugh, Horowitz, O'Reily and other haters of blacks because such individuals support their own bigoted views. I'll bet you love David Horowitz too. Remember him? The man who said blacks should have been happy that their ancestors were brought to this country. If you think I need or want your sympathy, think again. I have nothing but utter contempt for people who think it is OK to handcuff a young child. I have nothing but contempt for people who are willing to excuses the injustices continuously meted out to blacks by law enforcement agencies across this country. The wellbeing of our black children mean nothing to certain individuals as evidenced by some these posts. Your post clearly show exactly where you stand. African Americans don't look for sympathy. All we want is to be treated fairly, to be able to live our lives not having to worry that we will be treated unjustly simply because of our race. This child will be scarred by what happened to her. It was done for only one reason, she was a black child.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #545
559. Way to ignore the facts...
"Just more right wing talking points."

See the subject line. My sources were CommonDreams, a progessive news site, and the Bureau of Justice Statistics (nonpartisan).

"I did not even bother to read beyond the first few paragraphs."

:spray: Really? Then why'd you write this: "If you think I need or want your sympathy, think again." ??? It's almost as if you were responding to my last paragraph. Almost. And while we're on the subject, why did you bring it up if not to elicit sympathy (not necessarily from me)? Just felt like sharing some of your feelings with me (the guy you're arguing with)?

"Just another attempt to justify the mistreatment of African Americans."

No, just another attempt to get you to understand you have no grasp of numbers. You picked a handful of extreme examples and are trying to make those sound like frequent behavior--they're not. Yes, they're horrible and should never happen. Yes, profiling exists. But just because this little girl is black does not mean the handcuffing was racist. It's probably standard procedure to handcuff ANYONE that is being violent.

"Some people have no minds of their own."

It's good to see I've reduced you to ad hominem attacks. Care to admit you're wrong now, or would you like to continue your farcical defense of using the race card?

"I'll bet you love David Horowitz..."

Nope. And I certainly don't support his Academic Bill of Rights garbage. Do you have any defense of your race card, or are you going to keep making attacks on me? No offense, but not one of your attempted smears has even been close to the truth. (Limbaugh, O'Reilly--who I really can't stand--, and now Horowitz)

"The wellbeing of our black children mean nothing to certain individuals as evidenced by some these posts."

Let me explain it to you one more time: just because some of us think this kid--who happens to be black--got what was coming to her does not mean we don't care about all black children. The only connection between the two exists only in your mind. I strongly encourage you to take a course in logic.

"It was done for only one reason, she was a black child."

If the police had come into the class room and just slapped the cuffs on for no reason, yes, I'd say you'd have a very strong case. But there's this little problem where she was tearing apart the classroom, the asst. principal's office, swinging at the AP, forced the class to evacuate their room, and was not responding to any authority figures. There was also apparently some history with her and the police. That's why your statement above is just stupid, and it's going to remain stupid no matter how many times you repeat it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #559
579. Hmmm is it just me or tomee seem a bit extreme?
Perhaps a bit too extreme... if you know what I mean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #579
592. It's not you...
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #319
540. LoL nice cartoon man...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #540
561. Ill Will Press!
Edited on Mon Apr-25-05 06:31 PM by Beel2112
Ill Will Press is hilarious; you can find the archive here:

http://www.illwillpress.com/vault.html

"Fatkins Diet" and "Tech Support" are hilarious too. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #146
187. If speaking up against the handcuffing of a 5-yr-old
who was SITTING CALMLY AT THE TABLE at the time she was handcuffed costs us votes than the situation is beyond despair.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #187
210. she only sat her ass down when she saw the police coming. I
wish you could put your child in the same class as this kid. then we could see just how you would respond. I betting that a lot of folks that are against the handcuffs would change their tune.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #210
220. If my kid were in the class, I still wouldn't think it justified to
handcuff a five year old. It's pretty basic. She was calm without handcuffs and she freaked out when they put them on. Wow. Problem solved. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #210
287. Unbelievable
In other words, it did not matter that the disruptive behavior had subsided by the time the cops arrived. She just had to be punished for her prior behavior. In your world, cops talking to the child patiently should never be the case, eh? Simply astounding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #287
459. it did not subside by the time they arrived. she stopped because
they did arrive, which also proves her bad ass knows right from wrong. I agree with you guy's that the handcuff were extreme. but you can't spank kids anymore.

and let me say this, I've seen you guy's that believe in that "talk to junior" bullshit. those people that I've seen do that shit have some of the worse kids in the place. that shit does not work, and will never work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #459
502. Her knowing right from
wrong is not the point here. I object to her being handcuffed and treated like a criminal. She was sitting in a chair behaving when they handcuffed her. That act was not necessary. Maybe you think it's OK to treat a child like that but many people strongly object. Children of that age are not expected to act like adults. They often behave inappropriately.

There was no loving behavior from the adults. Their actions just made everything worse. This is not the only child ever to have had a tantrum. My friends who are teachers see that kind of behavior a lot. They don't call the police and every one has expressed dismay over the way this child was treated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #502
512. oh man, what is wrong with folks. it is not ok for a child of any age
to act in her manner, period. it is not acceptable, in no way or form. I worry about many who want to write her behavior off as a tantrum, that was not a tantrum.

that child knows exactly what she can do and get away with, witness her becoming resonable once the police arrived. you just can not ignore her behavior and write it off as a child being a child. please I'm begging you to be resonable, and not just anti-estiblishment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #512
518. I am not suggesting
that her behavior was appropriate. Clearly it was not. I think she needs help. However, there still was no reason to put her in handcuffs. That was very damaging. I cannot understand why you cannot see that. She IS A FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD. Some children behave badly but you don't call the cops, you don't put them in handcuffs. There was no compassion for that child in that room. Just a lot of threatening adults. The situation was completely mishandled.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #518
556. But there was a VERY good reason to cuff her. The teachers were
forbidden to touch the child. They had no means at their disposal to get her to behave, rather than pose a distraction at best and a threat at worse to other kids.

So they followed their only available option - and an option the child's own mother has used: the police.

The police have more options than the teachers, but not many, and restraint is one of them. So they took the one option THEY had.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #556
567. You may have missed the video
The adult physically picked the child up about a half dozen times. Obviously, the teacher/principal were not forbidden from touching the child.

When you have a child who is acting in a manner that might be dangerous to herself or others (and I am not convinced that was the case here from watching the videos), while you have that child in your arms (one of the numerous times you have already picked her up), you move that child to a safe space - a gymnasium, the hallway, or other place that relatively immune from destruction by a flailing 5 year old - and help her regain control of herself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #556
570. What utter rubbish
All over this country young children have tantrums. They have them in school, in shopping malls, in restaurants, in parks, etc. I've talked to teachers and others who have witnessed such incidents. I've also seen such behavior. Not one person ever thought of calling the police. So why did they do it to this child? They did not like her, had no understanding of her needs, and because she was black. I have talked to several black people today and everyone of them feel exactly like I do. One grandmother said she was so upset by it that she has been turning the channel each time the incident is played on television. I also get very upset seeing her crying and being placed in cuffs. That was a five year old child. There had to be a better way. Handcuffing a child of that age is just the wrong thing to do. And I'll say this, although all children have tantrums, it will always be only the little black child who gets placed in handcuffs. What they did was just plain wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #570
575. Her own MOTHER called the police - is she a racist too?
This wasn't a tantrum. And parents don't need the polic - they can do things teachers can't.

If you're so sure there was a better way, please spell it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #518
581. I still don't understand how you can ignore so much. their hands
are tied, they can not touch that child other then to defend themselves. if you were put in that same position, which is what the police have to deal with also you would end up doing exactly they did.

you can not spank another person's child, you can't physically handle another person's child. you can't threaten another person's child. with all of that removed all you can do when a child is behaving like that is call the police. if the police arrive on the scene they have the same restrictions, plus they are stuck with being responsible for the child's safety. if she hurts herself while they are present, guess who will get held responsible.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
all.of.me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
26. of course! she's black! i didn't even read it, just looked at the picture.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
134. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #134
147. well now that's just crazy. race isn't the determing factor. it's
parenting, sorry hate to hurt your feelings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #134
149. Are they? Do you have any links/statistics on that?
In my personal experience, all the troublemakers were white boys and white girls, except for a very few. I've never considered this an issue that was race-related, anyway, I always figured that misbehavior occurs fairly equally in all groups, so I'd be interested in reading more.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #134
159. Hunh?
Sorry - don't quite understand what it is you think needs to be addressed. 50% of the children in this particular school are African American.

source: http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/fl/other/2450
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
all.of.me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #134
178. i don't think race has to do with disruption
i do think there are underlying issues, though. this girl is angry. why? that is what needs to be looked at.

of course, that is aside from the bizarre treatment of the police. handcuffs? what are they afraid of? escorting her away in a cop car? can't they distinguish between a child and a true criminal? they don't know how to act outside the box, away from their script.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
189. oh i'm sure that had nothing to do with it!
:puke:
:sarcasm:
:grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
27. This is so horrible!!
Don't people know how to deal with children anymore? (And I'm not a parent). Wouldn't you quietly isolate this child in a room and call her parents immediately to come and get her?

Or is it because she is a black child she is immediately treated as a criminal. No wonder she doesn't want to be in school. A child can sense that kind of hatred.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
28. Why Are Kids Filled With Rage? Why Aren't Parents Helping Them?
These questions need to be asked along with why police go too far in restraining little ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
48. She could be autistic. Her parents may not have the money for the help
she needs.. who knows.

treating a 5 year old (who has problems this severe) as an adult is exactly the WRONG thing to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skarbrowe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
381. I thought of autism also until I saw her sit down when she saw the cops.

In my opinion, she played everyone like a fiddle. When she saw the police she started the little Miss Innocence routine. IMO, the police had earlier conversations with her mother about her conduct and they used the cuffs as a scare tactic to get through to this child that there were CONSEQUENCES for bad behavior. I took the cuffing as rough, tough lesson learned.

But, I don't know what happened immediately after she was cuffed. Was she roughed up on the way to the police car? Seriously. I need to find out what the police did to her right after the cuffing.

Time-out rooms would be great, but like many people said, they are lawsuits waiting to happen if you don't have constant supervision. Who pays for the extra person to do the supervising? How many time-out rooms should there be?

I took this case, and obviously I could be wrong, as a "I told you we would hand-cuff you if you ever did this again" scare tactic. But, I don't know how far the police took this and I agree that one would hope that there could be some other resolution to her actions.

Also, isn't it amazing that just like the movie Rashomon, there are so many different ways people viewed these tapes. I saw one thing; someone else saw something completely different.

Fascinating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
57. Maybe she was reacting to her previous encounters with...
...her teacher and the assistant principal. Blaming it all on the parents is an easy out, IMHO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
29. All negative! The teacher and assistant followed the child
around saying no the whole time without giving any positive suggestions for a better activity. Not once did they suggest that the child engage in a positive activity. They only, a couple of times, said I need you to sit in the chair. Well that sounds thrilling to a troubled 5 year old. I think I'll go sit in a chair now. Why did they not try to engage her in a positive activity? It was mind boggling watching them just follow her around waiting for her to act up. What did they expect? Geeeeeeze.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. I agree to a certain extent, but how long should that have to go on?
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that there were other kids in this classroom who perhaps were not there to spend their day (days) watching the school experiment and try and find the right approach to dealing with a clearly troubled child.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #33
131. If the teacher is competent
it wouldn't go on for long at all. They would find a way to defuse the situation and get the child's behavior under control. Problem is, I don't think most teachers get the right training in that area any longer. They don't seem to have any foundation in child psychology or emotional development.

I recall asking my son's teachers these questions, most of them had never heard of Piaget or Eriksson or even Skinner. In years past, most universities had their elementary education programs linked to their psychology departments, so there was cross - pollination in study for early education majors. Apparently, sometime in the 1980's, education departments pulled away from psych programs and have gotten way off on a tangent. Teacher education has suffered tremendously with most faculty and students understanding almost nothing about evidence based psychology and learning theory. They also have fallen victim to a lot of education fads with no basis in scientific research.

Its really a shame.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
315. I'm sorry.. that's freakin' hilarious!
Honey... would you like to stop punching the principal now and draw a picture of a rainbow? Sweetie.. can you tell me how many red pens are on the floor now that you cleared my desk? When you're done terrorizing the class would you like an ice cream cone?

You have obviously never been around children with severe violent outbursts. They can't hear what you're saying and would refuse to listen if they could. She is choosing the behavior she wants to choose at that time, whether it's an emotional problem or just severe bad attitude.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #315
418. What utter nonsense
You expect a five year old to behave like an adult? Calling a five year old little miss innocent? Well, guess what, a five year old IS pretty innocent and not expected to have the maturity of a grown person. I saw that tape twice and that behavior is not uncommon among young children. I've seen children that age do worse in upscale shopping malls. The parents could do nothing but take them out of the mall. No cops were called.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #418
509. No cops were called BECAUSE the parents took care of it
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 05:15 PM by eowyn_of_rohan
(adding--the parents took care of it in the mall incident you wrote about). I agree the girl should not have been handcuffed or "arrested", as when the cops arrived she was not doing anything wrong--regardless of the fact that she stopped her atrocious behavior because she knew the cops were coming.

I've seen bad behavior in malls and restaurants too, but I have never seen anything this bad go on this long. I agree a 5-year old still retains some innocence, but by that age should also know what is proper and improper behavior. It is the parents' fault that she does not, and as you know, the parents of this child were "unavailable" to take responsibility for removing this kid from the school. If the teachers were allowed to use a modicum of physical contact in order to restrain children who are exhibiting behavior problems of this magnitude, the cops would not have had to be called.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
30. O.K. i just have to ask this even if I get flamed....
I'm not trying to be a jerk, just asking an honest question here.

IF they did call the child's parents and IF they did say they couldn't get there until the end of the day, then what were the options they had?

Should the teacher or an administrator have tried to physically restrain her? Isn't that illegal?

Should the cops have tried to restrain her using other methods? Wouldn't they have risked hurting her if she continued fighting and flailing about?

I agree that a formal arrest and charge is no doubt much. But for all the people stating their shock and horror on here about this I haven't read anything that says what a better option would have been.

If my daughter were in a classroom where a kid was acting out like this regularly, I would fear for her safety. And if my daughter were hurt by this girl's behavior physically then I would in fact blame the school officials for not doing something to prevent it.

So flame away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Some one did
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:39 AM by libhill
Post a good suggestion, about maybe isolating her in a room until a parent got there. But sounds to me like they escalated things by following her around and staying on her ass. I mean it's a kindergarten, not Marine Boot Camp.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. And that is a good suggestion..but how to get her there?
Again the problem is that they cannot touch her in certain ways without getting in trouble or risking hurting her more. And clearly she's not listening to their instructions. I think asking her to go to another room probably wouldn't go over too well based on the girl's behavior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #39
53. As well, schools take anything deemed violent very seriously
these days per policy. It's actually gotten to the point of ridiculousness... when my 4th grade son was in 1st grade, he jokingly told another kid, "I'm going to kill you!" while laughing and mucking it up and they damn near suspended him. I couldn't believe it.

But this situation WAS a violent outburst. We do have to consider the safety and the emotional trauma this is causing the fellow students. If one of my children flipped out at school to this degree and I "just couldn't" come and get him (and handle what is MY JOB as a parent) then they're forced to handle it in a legal way. I'd be less upset about the handcuffing than I would be if my child was an innocent bystander in all of this and was injured physically or emotionally by it.

It's a complicated situation.

I fear for that little girl's future if her parent(s) aren't just as upset with how their daughter is acting out as they are about the restraining.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
181. isolating her in a room ?
They couldn't even get here to sit down, how in the hell were they going to get her to go in another room.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #181
193. I still say
They could have taken a calmer approach, maybe let one person she trusted talk to her alone. Rather than surround her and follow her around like D.I.s on a difficult recruit. She evidently expected the principle to lift her off the desk, someone stated that it was like she wanted someone to put their arms around her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
360. The teacher only prevented her from causing further distruction
Unless they have a paddes room with nothing in it this child was going to continue to destroy what she could. Why? Because she was asked to clean up a mess she made in the classroom.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SCDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Couldn't she have been sent to the principals office
and have rage there or better yet calm down because she would not be over stimulated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Don't want to be put in a 'defending the police action here,
because I don't. She was in the Assistant Principal's office in the second video.

The assistant principal is the woman in the red shirt in the video. It's her office that the little girl is tearing things up in - in the second video. They had called the mother, but she couldn't get there for some time. They did manage to get the child to the a.p.'s office. The videos just seem to drag on and on - until the police get there. Then wham, on go the cuffs.

It appears to me that the school admin was doing everything that they could do. I'm not familiar with all the rules, do they have authorization to set her on a chair, say 'sit' and have the ability to enforce their action? Or would that be considered some kind of abuse?

Other than - in hindsight, and as an outsider- maybe they could have put the child on the phone with the mother. But, no - then they've lost their authority.

Sure turned ugly fast when the police arrived.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. Great observations
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:59 AM by TornadoTN
In pointed fact, if the assistant principal or any other member of the administration had touched her, they most likely would have been in for a major law suit.

That's where we are at folks. I want to be the one to discipline my child, but I'm a rational and caring parent. That's not always the case (I'd wager its the majority of the case with the bulk of the problematic children that the parents do not care). If its a Middle-School to High-School kid, I say call the cops, it might be the only thing that can get through to some of them. But a kindergartener is a bit of overkill.

{Edited for clarity}
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #49
126. Hey, tornado, you've done a great job of
presenting this stuff from the teacher's point of view, and also putting the share of the blame where it needs to be: On the parents.

Every year, we go to our little guy's teacher at the beginning of school and explain to them that we tell our kids that when they are in school, the teacher is in charge, and don't come home whining to us about "the teacher being mean." The teachers really appreciate that.

Of course, there are bad teachers out there, but we've been fortunate not to get any.

Redstone
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #126
140. Thanks Redstone
I appreciate the kind words. I think my wife would be better at describing whats going on, I can only go on what she tells me, her actions and the points in her life where she just says "Why the hell do I do this?"

The problems in our education system are countless and they are mounting. But during the election cycle, all you hear about is how they (Republicans mainly) are going to get rid of "bad' teachers. I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of teachers want to do the right thing, they do their job because they have a love of teaching because we all know its not because of the money. Yet they are demonized and held to some imaginary standard called NCLB.

Sure, there are bad teachers and there are teachers that dont know how to handle an unruly student, no matter the age. These teachers usually dont last long before they move on to another career.

Talking to your childs teacher at the beginning of the year goes a long way in making sure your child gets the most out of their education. Plus, as a parent, ensuring your child knows that the teacher is in charge really helps in establishing boundaries. When the occassion does come, and I hope noone has to go through it, that your child gets a "bad" teacher, you will know its probably true if your child complains. Join the PTA, get involved in the schools events, sports or otherwise. Make sure the school sees your face and hears your voice often. Teachers, contrary to popular belief, appreciate this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #42
111. There are ways
of dealing with these situations, and best done if corrective action is begun early. They let this situation get way out of hand before they tried to put the child into time out.

The child wasn't hyper or manic, they could have dealt with her verbally earlier on. They never told her specifically what they wanted her to do, just followed her around saying, "oh, don't do that". How about creating a diversion, finding something to interest her and offering some reward. Pretty basic.

From a mom with two boys who have ADD.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. Sensible points well made.........
Not that I'm advocating handcuffing 5 year olds, but if the police HAD to take her away (for the safety of her classmates and herself) then maybe they DID need to restrain her to prevent her hurting herself or attacking them in the back of the car.

We don't have all the facts here - I'm just saying that there ARE possible circumstances where this would be an appropriate course of action.......with a hell of a lot of IFs BUTs and caveats.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. No flames...
This begs the question, what's wrong with our society that:
1. a five year old has to be handcuffed by the cops
2. the mother couldn't get there until 3:15
3. there were no other options

couldn't they have removed her from the classroom, and taken her to a counselor of some sort, made her sit with the counselor and talk about her behavior? do they not have that option anymore in schools? where did this girl learn that behavior like this is the way to get attention?
Ack. There's so much that goes into this that is not addressed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Exactly. Thank you...
I'm in no way saying this whole incident isn't part and parcel of a much larger societal problem on all counts. Simply that I can see where a huge convergence of unfortunate circumstances would lead to this.

I'm not so sure that most elementary schools or kindergarten's even have counselors and if they did I'm not sure a kid with these types of behavioral issues would listen. It sounds like she needs some form of special education.

From the looks of the uniform this is a catholic school. And I think too often people mistake that for a true solution for troubled kids who need much more than just not being in public school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #41
85. Question #4. Why Are Kids Filled With So Much Anger?
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 09:40 AM by cryingshame
Somehow, autism seems to be too much of a 'catch all'.

IMO, this uncontrollable ANGER is becoming ever more pervasive in our society.

Parents freaking out at coaches and teachers, people lossing it in cars, kids exploding in school.

There seems to be a LOT of repressed energy that desperately needs healthier, creative outlets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
medeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
113. My Mom had to lock herself and another student in a locker
to protect themselves from a violent kid. The librarian was knifed in the back over 20 times.. who hasn't recovered emotionally and hasn't left her home in 15 years.

Granted this was a secondary school.... and many years ago.

I watched both videos and the assistant principal handled herself admirably trying to protect the child from being in dangerous situation to herself yet not reacting.

What I noticed was the child never stopped the behavior until hearing the police were present.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #113
391. That's probably because the mother had called them in the past..
That's what I read here. Her own mother had called the police on her before. That child is facing a life of heartache if they can't figure out what's triggering this behavior and how the family may be contributing. A fat cash reward to the mother does jack shit for the little girl. Perhaps she has Auspergers Syndrome, or perhaps she's just a very angry little girl. I fear for her future if it's not solved.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
114. Thinking back
I can never recall a time when I was growing up when the school felt it necessary to call a parent to come to school because a child was misbehaving. It was dealt with in other ways, without physical force.

Behavior modification and teaching of young children only works when reinforcement (positive or negative) is immediate. Delaying reinforcement (calling a parent to school) is completely ineffective. Its all about tiny steps, setting up a reward system for good behavior.

I've always wondered if those people who train animals without physical punishment could teach the teachers a thing or two.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
123. I take issue with calling the cops
I can't buy into your logic.

Why wasn't a school pediatric psychologist called in? You can't tell me the state of Florida can't afford a psychologist?

I think handcuffs were beyond the means necessary.

Now you have a class of kids who now believe if they even act up in school they can go to jail. What will their perception of the police be now? I don't ever want my kid to ever think that.

I have a friend who has a kid who exhibits violent behavior and the school is working with the parent to get her the help she needs. I guess the State of Florida is deficient in that regard too.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
148. i agree with you, if the child will act like that with an adult. imagine
what she's like with one of her classmates.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
174. By the time the cops arrived, the little girl was sitting quietly
at the table. The situation was over--until they cuffed her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
316. No flame here. The cops should have brought the parents there.
Such bullshit.. your kid is tearing up the class for over an hour, assaulting adults, and you can't get your ass down there? Nothing like leaving it to the poor school to handle... They did the right thing calling the cops. Absolutely. ANd, sadly, because the parents refused to take responsibility for her, the cops had to get her out of there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
37. those cops shouldn't be reprimanded or suspended . . .
they should be fired . . . for gross stupidity . . . handcuffing a 5-year-old is NEVER appropriate and ALWAYS completely unacceptable . . . what the hell is going on in this country? . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. I think it's called
Fascism
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
44. White cops handcuffing a black 5 year old girl. Only in AWOL Bush's admin.
what the FUCK?!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
carpediem Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
52. It seems after watching the video that a hug could have avoided
a lot of this problem. I know they aren't supposed to touch a student, but if my kids start spiraling into a tantrum, usually the root cause is an emotion they don't know how to handle, fear, anger, hurt feelings, feelings of being slighted. The best way I have found to handle it is to calmly and firmly hug them. It usually works in about 20 seconds to a minute.

Unfortunately because of the society we live in today where everyone is afraid, and rightfully so, of adults touching kids inappropriately, teachers aren't allowed to act in a natural human way toward the kids.

When I watch the video I see the girl try to get into a hug position a couple of times with the Asst Principal by climbing on the desk and waiting for her to put her arms up to take her down. My kids do this, although not as part of behavior like this, they climb up on a chair and wait to be taken down and on the way down they get a quick hug.

That little girl was terrified and there wasn't an adult who was acting "normal" toward her, that only feeds the behavior. If someone had just hugged her I think it may have gone a long way in calming her down. She is only 5 after all and not capable of breaking down the emotions and logic of this situation. All she knew was she was in trouble, everyone was mad at her and her mom and the police were coming and noone told her how she could get out of it or stop it.

I was talking to a couple of teachers who live in my neighborhood and they say they are constantly told not to touch a child, in any way, not ever. I think that is sad and harmful, our very nature wants human contact and love, if we don't get it sometimes we lash out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #52
62. that's why I could never be a teacher today . . .
my natural inclination is to give kids hugs . . . it's what they need, it's what they want, it's the right thing to do . . . lots of hugs, every day . . . when we've reached the point where we can't give kids hugs, we've lost our claim to being a "civilized" society . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
carpediem Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. I agree. Were you a teacher? n/t
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #67
92. not exactly . . . I was a specialized foster parent working with . . .
troubled teens who lived in my home, and did a fair amount of home schooling helping them get ready for their GEDs . . . and after they get to trust you, even "tough" teens welcome the occasional hug . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
coffeenap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #52
70. 100% agreed and I say hug and smile, and firmly, within the hug, hold her
hands away from danger. To hell with the lawsuit--take hugging to the Supreme Court, goddammit! What world are we living in if we can't care for a scared and troubled 5 year old child??(even if the trouble is temporary)

As a mom of two kids, one very unusual, I say let her rant in the AP's office (move the "very important" stuff out of the way) then apply hugs and smiles as needed until calm. Have the door open and have witnesses so the harassment charge is implausible.

In a time when so many kids are not getting the loving human contact they need...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
carpediem Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #70
79. Yes - if the door is open and there are witnesses and
especially if there is video like in this case, I don't think anyone could have faulted a teacher/principal for hugging a little scared girl.

I wouldn't be unhappy with the teachers if they tried to comfort my child when there were other people around.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
coffeenap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #79
91. I'd be unhappy if they didn't!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
78. I thought the same thing...it seemed the more antiseptically the girl
was treated, the more frustrated she became.
I found the assistant principal's behaviour bizarre: "you do not have the right to do that..."
but she allowed her to tear up the office for a long time.

I thought, in watching the video, that the girl was desperately wanting someone to relate to her in a human way. finally, out of frustration, she hits the teacher to GET A HUMAN RESPONSE.

There is more going on with that girl, that handcuffing will not resolve. It seems she is acting out because she is not getting enough real human attention.

How would we feel if we were upset about something, and someone just kept spouting antiseptic comments like" you do not have the right to do that to my office"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #78
129. We'd feel we were in an episode of the Twilight Zone
or the Prisoner... I had similar thoughts to yours when I watched these videos. The article about previous problems this girl has had in school makes it sound like things are not much better for her at home. Her mother seems as ineffectual as the teacher.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #52
86. A Friend Of Mine Once Asked, While Standing In Line, "Anyone Want A Hug"?
she's a yoga instructor and healer and was standing in line at the local cafe.

A BUNCH of people responded affirmatively.

Apparently we ALL need to express and recieve some positive energy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #52
117. You are right--no one was acting "normal" around her...
I found the teacher's behavior almost as bizarre as the student's. I had no idea a teacher is not allowed to touch a student, unless the student is endangering him/herself or another student. If a kid was swinging at me like that, or tearing stuff from walls, my inclination would be to grab her hands. The teacher's efforts to avoid touching the child seemed very unnatural, and her robotic words and tone, eg, "This is not acceptable", "you cannot do this", "you must sit down now", while doing nothing to make it happen, made the whole situation seem surreal... The child may have sensed that, too... She certainly needed human contact and love, and to feel she was "ok", and not a freak, but in such a surreal setting, I don't think one of those confinement-type "hugs" would have helped. The child would have sensed the hug wasn't "real" either, and instead was coming from a desire to restrain rather than to comfort.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #117
133. keep in mind she had to see she was being filmed
all she had to do was look out the window.

so, lets see, no one is addressing her in any human way, they have her in a windowed office, where she is being observed, but not related to. In addition, she is being videotaped (did she give permission to be?).

I'd say that would make anyone feel like a bug on a pin.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #133
138. she actually looks at the camera once or twice
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 11:54 AM by eowyn_of_rohan
so i don't doubt she knew she was being filmed (without her permission). The selective video clips make me wonder what they didn't show--like what happened between that classroom and the principal's office? And as an aside--someone made the point that she was handcuffed AFTER she calmed down. I'm no child psychologist, but I know enough as a DOG owner not to punish good behavior...

(on edit--maybe she didn't look AT the camera, but she looked in that direction, as if she knew she was being watched or filmed)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ysolde Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
171. Exactly the point...
I have an 8 yr old and a 4 yr old and I despise that our society sees abuse in every adult/child relationship. It's a sick, sick society that we live in where a 5 yr old who desperately needs an adult to hold her so that she can regain control of herself can't get that help. To resort to calling the police and handcuffing her is ridiculous! With the cameras rolling, the AP should have hugged that little girl with all her might and talked to her gently; sung to her; comforted her. We wonder why there's so much anger in our children? Because we don't allow adults to comfort them anymore. I'm sorry but this outgrowth from sexual abuse has not helped anyone. I think it has really harmed our children and our society and this poor little girl is just another victim of the coldness of our society. I know that my 4 yr old son can lose it, but he gets over it much quicker (and doesn't escalate it) if he can be held and comforted. Kids need love and understanding and they need adults to reassure them that they are not so, so awful that adults can handle anything they can dish out. This little girl was terrified of her own feelings and actions and those feelings were only magnified by the lack of support and confidence that she received. If you fear a child, they will come to fear themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Massachusetts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
66. Look out Middle Schoolers YOUR'E next....
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 09:16 AM by Massachusetts
Law and Order FLA style.






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
naderzenithnow Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #66
74. If anything ever called for a riot
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lateo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
76. Outside its Amerikkka...
See the face of fear
Running scared in the valley below
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
83. What is wrong with these people?
:grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
athenap Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
84. A hug or holding a hand
not cuffing a hand.

I think it's horridly sad that the teachers aren't allowed to touch the child ever. I can understand, though...but people need to use some common sense. Especially in schools where kids move from room to room or inside to outside, it's a practicality thing--you don't want to lose anybody who wanders off.

My son's preschool has a little tent and a beanbag inside it with a blanket for when the kids want to be quiet. Most of the kids know when they want to be alone and will go in there to be quiet or have a little alone time.

What it seems to me would have helped is to get this girl into a nurse's office (if they still exist) or another dark, quiet room where she wouldn't be assaulted with sensory stimulation, and could figure out howto calm herself, or, barring that, exhaust herself down into a nap.

Kids this young are still sorting out the sensory input they receive, and not all of them can handle it all the time.

Cops are trained to use strong tones of authority, and that usually works to get most teens and adults in line, but little kids generally don't respond well to this - I've found that a good majority of the time, yelling at my kid will not get him to do anything more than respond in kind.

That poor kid. Our poor school system.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
93. Two sides to every story.
If my 5-year-old grandson was cuffed to control a temper tantrum, my lawyer would handle it. No question.

If he behaved like that in a classroom, or in someone's home, or anywhere else, a phone call would have someone on the spot to take care of him; it's unlikely that an administrator would have to go to lengths like that to control him.

I don't agree with the "cuffing." I also know that there are limits to what adults in public schools are allowed to do to restrain defiant and destructive behavior, if telling the child to "stop" doesn't get the desired response. People who work with the public's children will often go to extreme measures to protect themselves from lawsuits; I'm betting this is what happened here.

In a similar situation, about 10 years ago, I had a 1st grader who regularly engaged in tantrums, including kicking teachers, tipping over desks, climbing to the top of the slide and refusing to come down, hiding under tables and refusing to come out, etc.. After one such incident, my administrator scooped her up and carried her, horizontally, under his arm, with her arms restrained at her sides. She screamed and kicked, but couldn't reach him with her feet. She demanded to be put down. He looked down, said in a surprised way, "When I can trust you to control yourself and follow directions, I might be able to put you down." He then proceded on to the next task, meeting with a group of adults in the school office. He stood for the meeting. Then on to the next person he was supposed to talk to, and so on. Finally she said quietly, "You can put me down now." He said, "Can you stand exactly where I tell you to, and do exactly what I tell you to?" She said, "Yes." He did. She did. A model student for the rest of that day, anyway. She stood quietly while he pulled out his phone, called her parents, informed them of the days' events, and handed her the phone. She listened quietly to what they had to say, and was grateful to be allowed to return to class.

That could have been a problem for him. Any kind of physical restraint invites a lawsuit, which leaves the student on a rampage free to continue rampaging. Law enforcement is "allowed" to physically restrain when necessary. Most of us don't like the idea of anyone but ourselves physically restraining our children. It seems to invite abuse. If we aren't there to do so, and have not addressed our child's social/emotional development to prevent such outbursts, schools need to be able to address the problem. What are some other more appropriate alternatives for restraining a destructive physical outburst?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
98. Get out of the kid's face
the kid wanted to be left alone.
.
teacher's 'solution'
more {unwanted by kid} attention, assistant principle involved
.
swat team arrives, kid behaves better
swat team harrasses kid, kid's behaivor deteriorates
arrest
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
99. I can't get the videos to play, so help me out w/this question
It sounds to me, from the article, that the entire thing started because the little girl didn't want to participate in a lesson. Just a moment of stubbornness. So it wasn't just violence and destruction exploding out of nowhere, this thing ESCALATED from a simple moment of stubbornness. The teacher should not have let it escalate in the first place. You nip it in the bud at the moment the misbehavior begins. You introduce some positive alternatives immediately, BEFORE the behavior starts spiraling down and gets out of control. So often, it's been my experience that a child's behavior can go up or down depending on how the adults handle the moment. I could be wrong in this instance, since I can't play the videos, though.

It also sounds to me, from the article, that this little girl was known to have issues, so why hasn't she been receiving some help before it got to this point? Because I also agree that the other children shouldn't have their educational day put on hold because of one child's problems. What have the parents and teachers been doing all this school year to help this child?

So I guess I need more info, but I sure can't believe that cuffing the child was the only thing that could have been done. I'm a strong believer in preventive techniques that keep things from getting out of control in the first place!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nascarblue Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
104. hilarious
I thought the video was hilarious. Don't mean to offend, but come on... The cop knows the little girl and says outloud that the mother asked him to put on handcuffs. I don't think this is a big deal unless the media makes it a big deal...which they might being Florida is so back asswards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #104
246. WTF are you talking about.?The mother is suing the cops.
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 08:16 PM by Sterling
Where did you get that she gave the police permission to handcuff the kid?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #246
317. The mother is SUING???
The school should sue the mother for not getting her ass down there when they called and forcing them to call the cops on her. Such bullshit. Hope all that money will help the child with her violence issues..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
108. Teacher totally incompetent
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 10:58 AM by Demgirl
She could have handled this situation easily. She didn't seem to really be interested in doing anything.

Hasn't she ever heard of behavior modification or time-outs? Calling parents over something this trivial is ridiculous. The teacher needs to learn how to deal with kids. Its almost like she's egging her on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ScreamingWhisper Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #108
154. I honestly cannot fathom such a disturbing response as this one...
"Egging her on"????? After watching both videos and reading the updated article at the website, It's pretty obvoius that this child has some serious issues with general socialization skils, respect for an authority figure, and absolutely no self control. I read earlier in the thread that she was being "hovered around" as though there were a large number of teachers badgering her or something. No evidence of that was visible.

It was one teacher in the AP office (now destroyed by the youth).

All I saw was a teacher trying to prevent, in as passive a way possible, the same child from running,back around the desk to throw something else. Much less, PROTECTING THE CHILD who would not understand that to be climbing on the table was a dangerous thing!!!!
Read the updated article, and you read how her home situation appears to not be that different (older sibling climbing on furniture and hitting lamps, while laughing about it...????)

And the mother dismisses the incident as her daughter was simply "Set-up????"

What I saw was a teacher being repeatedly hit by this girl while at the same time, telling her that that was the wrong thing to do and she needed to settle down.

How can you possibly think, as stated by yourself earlier, that this is a "normal" tantrum. Where do you live that would excuse any actions like those shown by that young girl?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #154
309. I gotta agree....
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 02:37 AM by Beel2112
I saw the (powerless) teachers and admins going above and beyond the call of duty to calm this kid down. They were calm and cool--it didn't work. They removed her to a room to "quiet down", as several suggested--guess what? That didn't work either. You know what probably would've worked? A good slap or two on the behind. Unfortunately, that according to some is now "abuse" (odd that so many generations were abused yet turned out okay, isn't it?).

This "victim" mentality is, as several noted above, one of the reasons that the Dems have been getting hammered lately; I think people are sick of it. What about the 5-25 (S.W.A.G.) kids in the class? (They're victims too--why don't we see some grief counselors for them?) I bet they were scared too. If a couple minutes of abject terror are what it takes to scare this kid straight ("scared straight" being a term that no longer seems to exist in public education...), so be it. And yes, the release of the video will HOPEFULLY backfire. I imagine most people will see what I and others see here--an out of control kid that forced a bad situation upon herself.

Some of the suggestions here are clearly spoken from--mean this literally, not to be offensive--ignorance:

1. "This was racial."

What are you all basing that on? The fact that there have been racially motivated acts by other people in the past?

2. "Put her in a quiet room."

I'm not sure schools have empty rooms sitting around. In fact, it's a common complain that they're too full. And as others noted, it would be unwise to the extreme to put a rampaging kid in a room by him/herself. Unless said room was small and devoid of loose articles . (Then of course, we'd hear that such isolation would be abuse too.)

3. The video tape being released.

Yeah, it sucks. But as others pointed out, you need to realize it was "courtesy of Attorney John Trevana", the girl's mother's lawyer. I can only hope that sensible people will see this for what it is--an attempt to gain sympathy and/or attention. If this woman gets a dime from the school or police, it'll be a travesty of justice.


It's actually kind of humorous watching some of the people here having to tip-toe around; it's policies some on the (far) left have supported against disciplinary action ("abuse") that have gotten us to this sad point where police are necessary on campuses...

Okieinpain, tblue, havocmom--you made some excellent points.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #154
525. The first video
showed no such thing.

I'm sorry, but its very obvious that this could have been dealt with in a much more sane and calm manner. Its very obvious from the child and teacher's behavior that they already have a bad relationship and each knows how to push the other's buttons. Being an adult, its the teacher's responsibility to defuse the situation. But the teacher instead seems to be caught up in repeating the same mistakes in dealing with the child. Whether its incompetence, habit or laziness, its hard to tell, but the teacher obviously didn't or couldn't deal with the situation in a constructive manner.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #108
180. Probably afraid of getting sued
:eyes:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
110. She got upset because she didn't want to participate in a MATH lesson -
there shouldn't BE any "math lessons" in kdgn. This relates back to a thread here a couple of weeks back. Kdgn used to be about singing songs, playing games (remember "Duck, Duck, Goose", "A Tisket, a Tasket" ,etc?),the block corner, the dress-up corner, read-aloud time, cookies and nap time. Now that they're treating kindergarteners like 1st or 2nd graders, the poor little things get stressed out, and they start hating school at an even earlier age.

The story says that the little girl was sitting quietly when the police arrived. So why the fuckity-fuck-fuck was she handcuffed???????????

This story makes me want to :puke:

Think how upset the other little kids in the school must have been to see the police treating a FIVE-YEAR-OLD like this.

Outrageous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #110
125. Yes, math in kindergarten.
We have to compete, you know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Akoto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #110
141. Strongly agree!
I'm 20 now, but when I was in kindergarten, it was about everything you described. We had fun there. No pressure, it was just a place to play games and learn things appropriate to our age. If anyone ever got upset, our teacher (who, to this day, I still remember as one of my best) would take us into the little side room and talk to us until we calmed down.

Children, at least in kindergarten, need to be allowed to be children. Build a foundation where they enjoy learning and let them worry about the stressful stuff later.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #141
233. I'm 20 too...and I remember math in kindergarten.
I remember we had a take home book in which you'd figure out the problems on the book pages, rip them out and hand them in the next day.

Nothing too difficult. I remember one problem where there were three cookies and two were taken away...so how many cookies would you have.

Simple stuff like that.

So I don't kinow what school you went to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #233
541. I'm 35
we colored pictures and played and took naps and had snacks and learned letters and numbers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #110
153. I agree! There is so much in that video that upsets me,
I also felt sick to my stomach.

Kindergartners are being overwhelmed. As an example, on one particular evening last week, my daughter told me that my granddaughter's homework consisted of reading a book, writing a thank you letter for a school trip she took, doing another project(math I think) and choosing what song, dance or poem she was going to remember, practice and perform in front of her class in 2 days. This was a Wednesday night, and they were to perform on Friday. On Friday, the teacher said they would wait until Monday. WOW..4 days for 5 yr olds to learn a song, poem or dance.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #110
363. Why Math in KDG? No Child Left Behind (state standards)
What are you doing about it? Why did you support in the primaries?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #110
564. Sorry - is KNOWLEDGE now a repub thing????
My kids were both doing basic math and reading. They ENJOYED it. And they still do.

I don't know why learning is considered a source of stress rather than a source of joy.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
115. I glad most of you guy's live in pleasentville, usa. but in the real
world that kind of behavior is a problem. I believe the police and administrators handled the problem pretty good. yes it's shocking and sad to see a child her age handcuffed, but in this age of lawsuits, and crazy ass parents, the adults probably did the best thing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #115
121. Do you have children?
Anyone who has raised kids would have known how to deal with that situation without it escalating the way it did.

Keep in mind, most kids in a full day of school spend far more of their waking hours in school with teachers than they do with their own parents. For young children, especially, that says a lot. Object permanence still hasn't developed completely by that age, so telling a child about what their absent parent would want them to do has little effect.

The teacher is probably just as responsible for this child's behavior as the parent is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #121
130. oh, you can handle your kids any way you want too. but handling
someone else's is like pissing in the wind. your going to get dirty, I have four kids, if the school calls I'm there. I understand the admin's problem with dealing with kids like this, one of my boy's got a black eye from a kid's cast during a school basketball game because he decided he would play prison rules. no shit this is what he told the principal, his parent thought it was funny no shit said it was just harmless kid play. the next year harmless kid stabbed one of his classmates in the arm.

from what I've seen the police and principal did the best they could. I could be wrong, but it is probably the right thing to do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #130
136. That's a little different
This situation involved a 5 year old. I watched the first video and the whole thing could have been avoided early on.

Schools too frequently rely on calling parents when they should deal with these situations themselves. If they need to talk to parents, they should call them in after school, when parents are available. Problem is, so many of the teachers and administrators these days try to put in as little time as possible at school.

Teachers are too quick these days to say "its not my job". I also think many today don't actually like kids, just their paycheck. Many should probably be working in other careers. They spend so much time around children, they lose track of how out of character their own behavior and expectations are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #136
139. It's not the school's problem to deal with disturbed children
the teachers, and principals are not babysitters. they are there to teach. it is the parents problem to get to the school, not the principals problem to arrange a time.

the situation is no different, I did not tell you how old the kid was at the time of the incident. the police and school admin did the best they could in this situation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #139
166. oh really? they have no responsibility while the child is in school?
If they cannot handle a 5 yr old with a temper problem, why are they there?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #166
211. no the question is why is the child there. teachers are not baby
sitters, they are teachers. they are not there to raise your child but to educate your child. you are the one that is responsible for instilling values into that little person.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #166
337. To educate children who, unless they have a disability,
should be socialized enough to understand that hitting people and destroying property isn't acceptable?

Just a hunch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #337
347. sure, that's the perfect world that none of us live in.
but in the REAL world, being able to deal with situations of an unruly child would be helpful for the job, no?

at any rate, all I'm saying is that from what I saw in the videotape, the child was being treated in exactly the OPPOSITE way to defuse the situation.

1. her bad behavior was commented on, but not prevented. at the very least she should have been directed to an area that did not contain things which could be torn off or destroyed.

2. she was not related to except in an antiseptic way, videotaped as a curiousity with no concern for her privacy (which probably encouraged her to act out for the camera, OR frustrated her for being treated like a goldfish in a bowl)

3. People talked ABOUT her all around her but not directly to her.

4. She had calmed down finally and THEN was handcuffed. What message does this send? Do you punish a dog while its behaving? Honestly, the whole incident was handling horribly...once you allow bad behaviour to continue, you encourage it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #347
547. In the real world teachers get sued and worse for intervening.
And no teacher with their wits about them would get mixed up in this sort of thing. Too much risk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #139
269. Disturbed children
get an Individualized Education Plan.

Not all children are "normal" and schools are expected to be able to deal with it.

I think the police and the school admin were both clueless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #139
519. She's not disturbed
she's a normal 5 year old. Perhaps the teacher needs to be replaced with someone who is skilled in dealing with kindergarten temper tantrums.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #519
531. No...
...that was not a normal five-year-old.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #519
532. I worked in public schools,
and this was not a normal 5-year-old child, nor was this temper tantrum age-appropriate.

Before anyone uses the race card, the elementary school I worked in was highly diverse, and no child had a melt-down like that unless they were in special education and therefore had a disability.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #519
546. That is not normal. At all.
Sorry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
132. Florida is really a fucked up place.
Why does this shit always happen in Florida. I will do my best to NEVER live there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #132
156. It happens everywhere.
Florida just has such a rep that everything here makes national news these days. I've lived in seven states and none of them was any better or worse than the other as far as people making what looks to be dumbass decisions.

Florida would be a great place to live if we could get a Democratic governor again and turnover 3/4 of the legislature. Can't do much about the hurricanes though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
151. The poll on that page has been freeped.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #151
158. Thanks genieroze. I hadn't even noticed the poll.
Bad behavior results
Do you think it is ever appropriate for police to handcuff a small child?
Yes. 601 votes - 64%
No. 337 votes - 36%
Total: 938 votes

--

Strange world we live in, isn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #151
413. well-than lets DE=freep that poll
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puddycat Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
155. Frankly it sounds like the kid needed cuffing.
For whatever reason the child was out-of-control. Its really unfair and ridiculous for people to not want her controlled but at that same time they complain about the damage she did
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #155
161. I think it's ridiculous for a principal to follow a 5 yr old and allow
her to continue to do damage without picking her up and removing her to a safe quiet room. For the woman to follow her, watch her do the damage, then repeat over and over, "that's not acceptable", isn't a wise way to diffuse the situation. The child was given the control, the other children were forced to leave the room, obviously she didn't have to do her math and no one stopped her from destroying things.

My granddaughter's kindergarten class has a little boy who has lost it twice that I know of. The last time, he was picked up and removed from the room so he would not continue to disrupt the class. She told me he was kicking and screaming bad words at the principal and the teacher. Removing them to a safe room, is for the safety of the child as well as the safety of the students in the class. The first time it happened, he ran out of the school and across the street without even looking for cars.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #161
393. They can't TOUCH her.
ANd if they could, they risk a broken nose trying to pick her up. The mother would sue if the teacher touched her, obviously. SHe drops off this violent child at school and expects them to do her dirty work.. then sues when they can't control her. Sounds like a nice gig.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #155
177. That's ridiculous.
No five year old child needs to be handcuffed. Those cops could have easily picked her up and taken her out of the room. They did her that way because she was black, plain and simple. If she had been white, they would have taken far different action. Why is it always acceptable in the minds of some people to heap the most harshest of treatment on black people? Now such treatment is even being given to black children under six year old. A lot of children have tantrums in this country. So now it's acceptable to handcuff them and further traumatize? Is it now going to be open season on black children? So now we treat five year olds like adults?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #177
183. Were the officers who cuffed her black?
In listing to the video, it sounded like her being cuffed had been discussed between one of the officers and her mother, before the officers got there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #183
186. It doesn't matter to
me whether the cops were black or white. Sometimes black cops can also be brutal to African Americans. They know that if the offender is black, harsh treatment will be more acceptable. However, it is unusual to hear of a cop shooting a black person who is unarmed. This happens a lot with white officers. I would be very surprised and saddened if a black cop was involved in the handcuffing of this child. This was a five year old child. Those cops should be ashamed of what they did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
157. I can't play the tape.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. nevermind, I used a different browser and it worked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
165. All those police for one little girl?
I know Florida is a screwed-up state ( I lived there for two years), but DAMN she must have been tough!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
173. The school should have called her parents to come get her, not the police
She's 5. Kids that age throw tantrums. Her parents should have been contacted and told to come pick her up immediately, and if they didn't, then call the police or CPS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #173
191. They did. Her mother refused to come. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #191
247. No her mother said it would take one hour to come.
Some people work for a living and can't just walk out on their jobs and not get fired. Most working class people understand this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #247
250. So everyone who wonders where mom was
is a wealth elitist?

I work for a living and I would leave my job if my child was tearing the teachers room apart and breaking her things, if my child was tearing the AP's office apart and climbing on tables and chairs and PUNCHING and KICKING the AP.

I'd leave my job quick and give my child some much needed discipline!

I am a working class person.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #247
351. Another mistake from the video
As middle and lower class Americans sink deeper into indentured servitude, expect more of the same.

The PA announced to the teachers while they were tending to the student that the mother was not available until a later time. Now why would they announce that on the PA? The child also heard that and was probably more upset.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
182. DA calling for death penalty?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
190. Disgusting
I was once a teacher. I worked with 5 year olds. I saw many things the primary adult was doing wrong. Things that were counter-productive to "de-escalating" the situation. I would have been disciplined verbally (and rightly so) during my teaching years for performing so poorly.

If that's what the state of Florida considers "proper tactics" for disruptive behavior in a classroom, then children in Florida are in a world of trouble.

I'm disgusted and outraged.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #190
194. Yes, I saw a number of things that just exacerbated the child's behavior
I could not believe the statements made in front of the child by numerous adults as though she was not present and was not able to hear. The assistant principal very early into the first video tape announced that if the child's mother did not come get her they would call the police. The second video had a three ring circus quality to it with a number of adults looking on and providing running commentary on all of the child's transgressions, which she could hear. That is not how you de-escalate a volatile child.

The one thing that really struck me though, that no one has remarked upon, is why were these videotapes made public? I cannot see how it is not a violation of the child's privacy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Diadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #194
198. Our local news just covered it and only the lawyer for the child
spoke. Her face was blurred out in the news video. I wonder if he is the one attempting to get this out so something can be done.

I noticed the running commentary from various people during that video too. The comments were not something the child should have been hearing. I also heard one of them asking for an additional tape. I think they were more concerned with videotaping than with actually calming the child.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #198
203. They were more concerned about getting "proof" than properly seeing
to the needs of the child.

I agree.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #194
201. You're right, of course. The child's privacy was violated.
I don't believe the camera was just a fluke either. The entire scene looked too intentional to me.

Everything they did just provoked the child to act out even more.











Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #201
222. There was no expectation of PRIVACY in a PUBLIC school
Quite frankly, I think they should put security cameras in all the classrooms, so the teachers can use them as training aids, administrators can monitor performance, and the teachers have backup if they are accused of anything. Conversely, if a teacher is inappropriate, you have a record of that as well. At the end of the year, erase the tapes.

In this situation, I feel for the teacher and the AP. They knew if they touch the kid they could end up in lawsuit land. They got the rest of the kids out of the classroom (screwed up THEIR learning day) and then got the kid to the AP office, where she trashed the joint like a drunk on a bender.

That kid has some SERIOUS issues. She was punching that AP like she has SEEN someone getting the crap beaten out of them. I think she needed another year before she was ready for kindergarten, a year that probably should have been spent seeing a shrink and figuring out what is going on in the home that makes a kid act in such a destructive, violent, aggressive fashion. That, to my mind, was not normal behavior, not a simple tantrum--that kid has problems.

I never would have even thought about acting like that as a kid--because there would have been consequences, and it wouldn't be a bunch of adults saying "Gee, you need to stop" either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #222
224.  it was violated when the tape was made public
there was no reason to make the tape available to every yahoo on the internet.


As a former teacher, I'm appalled by the behavior and actions of the school and the police.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #224
225. Apparently the KID's lawyer got the tape from the cops and
released it. See, the school are already in lawsuit land, like it or not. Because a little brat, no doubt with emotional problems, pitched a fit, and school rules prevented the teachers from raising their voices and telling the kid to sit down and shut up, or even restraining her.

Any 'privacy violation' in releasing the tape was done by the child's legal agent, no doubt with an eye on the prize of a cash settlement.

Sorry, I just gotta hoist the bs flag on this!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #225
226. I don't care who released the tape to the public. It was wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #226
231. Well, blame the lawyer that MOM hired, then, not the school
You need to read the whole article carefully. This is not the first time the cops have been called about this kid. She is a PROBLEM. If her problems are due to her family environment, emotional or mental state, or whatever, well, they can work on that (preferably outside a school environment), but in this case, I back the teachers and the AP--they followed their guidelines to the letter.

It's cases like this, where a kid is not socialized, not given boundaries at home, feels free to whale on teachers like a boxing pro and engage in destructive behavior, does not see anything wrong with disrupting an entire classroom, and the parent hires a LAWYER because the kid wasn't allowed to run wild, is why clowns like chimp can pass legislation that restricts justifiable lawsuits. This is sheer craven opportunism on the part of the mother and the lawyer, and the kid WILL learn something from it...but it won't be an appropriate lesson, unfortunately.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #231
234. I read the article. Don't make assumptions otherwise
As a former teacher, refrain from attempting to "school" me in the emotional behavior and causes of 5 year olds. Thanks! You have a really great life!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #234
238. Yeah, you do the same! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #234
244. As a former teacher
what did you do when children punched you, kicked you, ripped apart your classroom and then ripped apart the AP's office, destroyed your personal property AND their parents would not come get them?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #244
251. If you can't keep a 5 year old girl from wrecking your class
You suck as a teacher.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #251
254. So this is the teacher and the AP's fault
because they couldn't stop the child from destroying two rooms and could'nt stop the child from punching and kicking them and couldn't stop the child from climbing on the chairs and tables?

But it in no way is the child's fault for thinking for even one second that that kind of behavior is okay?

Did you watch the videos? What were these people supposed to do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #251
357. Bull...
What would h you have done?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #251
554. If your child acts like this you suck as a parent. And I expect
teachers to be TEACHING - not policing disturbed children.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #251
604. what would you have done especially if you couldn't touch the child
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #244
276. I was almost stabbed by a student with a pair of scissors (real ones)
I've had them throw chairs across the room.

Let's see...other things include:


attempt to stab other kids with safe scissors
hit other students with blocks as well as other toys
curse me out quite fluently
slap me
pull my hair
pinch me
kick me
ball their little fists up and strike me
spit on me
even try to trip me up as I was walking by
had one threaten to have their older brother, who was indeed in a gang, shoot me.

Never once felt the urge to call the police. Never.Ever.


The little girl who tried to stab me? I held her in the legally allowed hold that teachers are trained to use to prevent harm to the student(the most important thing) and harm to myself. Now, maybe Florida doesn't train their teachers in the safe holds that prevent a child from harming themselves. If they don't, they should.

She was quite out of control and beyond talking methods. I then took her to the office and the administration took over from there. They didn't call the police either. They worked with her and helped her to gain control. Yes, it took time. Yes, it was disruptive...but the child was allowed to gain control without involving the terror tactic of calling the police. This is a 5 year old we are talking about...not some teenager or even a pre-teen.

You try and prevent escalation through verbal means and redirection. Doesn't always work. What you don't do is follow behind the child saying "don't do that!" and "stop that!"...you just provoke the child more when you do. The child is in control of the situation and has you jumping through hoops...and they know it. The adult who yields control to the child has lost hold of the situation.

It might help that my classroom was for children who had been abused in some way by their parents. Some were even in foster homes. Maybe I got more training than most teachers due to the problems of my students. However, during my crisis prevention classes, teachers from all sorts of schools were in attendance. So I doubt my training was unique.

I would not have pursued the little girl in the video. I would not have tagged behind picking up after her. I would not have allowed other adults to come in and out of the room making comments which only served to make matters worse. Nor would I have allowed adults in the room just so they could "witness" the behavior. I would have watched and been on the alert, but never would have I played along with the child's game of baiting me. The child had control and she knew it. The women in the video played right into it. You don't do that.

You give the child room..which despite what is claimed in the article..that educator did not do. She was constantly following the behind the child and in close proximity. She was more or less challenging the child and the child was responding to the challenge. Never dare a child. Never. They'll always take the dare. Besides, it's immature behavior in an adult to dare a child.

Not every technique works with every situation but you don't blame the child and have her handcuffed when the teacher is making some truly classic mistakes in discipline.

I don't cotton to spanking children. I don't cotton to scaring kids straight. I don't give up on 5 year olds. Now, other people have different ideas on what discipline means. Those who do can stay well away from my child.










Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jbm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #276
285. if all teachers thought like you do...
the world would be a much better place for children. Thanks for all you've done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #276
300. Excellent analysis Solly!
I too was struck by the fact that the assistant principal had entered into a power struggle with the child, which is a big no-no.

I would also be interested to know what if any actions were taken to prevent the tantrum in the first place. Did the child have a behavior plan which involves determining the function of the undesirable behavior and then outlines a detailed plan to teach the child an appropriate replacement behavior? Was the teacher trained in techniques to redirect and diffuse the child before a full-blown tantrum occurs? Did the child have learning disabilities that would require modifications to the curriculum or environment?

There is a substantial body of research that shows that approaches like I've outlined above are much more effective at preventing tantrums than waiting for the child to have a meltdown and then punishing her. It's about empowering the child to take responsibility for their actions by actively teaching them appropriate classroom behavior. You set them up for success by teaching the desired behaviors and reward them for their successes. You don't wait until the child is in a full blown rage to tell them what is expected of them, and then call the police when they don't comply.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #276
352. Ding! Ding! another winner
:applause:

Thanks for bring up some excellent points. After watching the video, everything you said these so called educators did wrong were quite obvious.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #276
566. Thank you for bringing a little sanity to this thread
It is not clear to me that this was anything beyond a poorly managed 5 year old temper tantrum (I watched all three videos).

To the extent it was, and her actions were signs of an emotional disturbance - what trusted adult can this child now feel safe approaching when she is old enough to verbalize what was behind all that flailing? Teacher - nope, teacher called the cops and she was handcuffed. Police - nope they handcuff people. Mom? Nope, the policeman said mom told them to put her in handcuffs.

Reminds me of the threat I have heard some parents use - if you're not good we'll call the police. Then they wonder why the child didn't go to the police when s/he got lost in the mall...

Picking the child up, carting her to the gymnasium or a hallway (nothing to damage in either place) and working in the physically safe space which she cannot destroy to (1) help her to regain control of herself, (2) address the underlying problem (counseling, physical exercise, referral to CSB, etc), and (3) impose consequences for the destructive behavior (after the immediate crisis is resolved and some way of moving forward has been identified).

I am no Pollyanna, I am a classroom veteran of 11 years - I've been spit on, threatened, buried under a pile of kids in the bleachers (with a resulting permanent injury), called names, etc. I am also a parent of a child who had steroid induced temper tantrums at around age 5 and was once halfway the window of a moving car before I managed to stop the car and grab her - because she was mad I had picked her up from the babysitter. That time she struggled with all her might for about 10 minutes to get out of my tight embrace before she finally collapsed in a heap of tears. That (or something similar) happened a couple of times a week for most of year before the steroids worked their way out of her system. Got that picture? Now tell me the adult, who had a 5 year old ineffectively batting at her in the video had no alternatives but to call the police.

(By the way, my 5 year old is now a teenager, having reached that milestone without needing to involve the police or corporal punishment,and she is no longer trying to crawl out moving car windows: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... ) :blush:

What that video tape showed was very mild. The response I saw was not even close to the proper way to treat a 5 year old.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #276
605. I think a therapeutic hold would have been best in this
situation except that the parent said they couldn't touch the child. There was a pediatrician and child development MD from UCLA on GMA yesterday who talked about the video. He basically said the teacher and principal did a good job, like the asst. principal twice took the child off her desk, tried to encourage her (and helped) her to clean up the mess she had made, etc. He said they they should have talked more to her along the lines of "I know you're having a bad time, but we have to clean this up..." and getting down more to her level.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #231
243. So, mom didn't have time to come get the distuptive physically abusive
kid from school, but did have the time to go hire a lawyer?

Hope they don't go to Wendy's for supper! :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #243
249. You can get a lawyer after work. SOme pople work jobs.
Most jobs in Corpo America these days don't let you leave at the drop of a hat in the middle of a work day. That some people don't understand this says a lot about how out of touch they are with what it means to make a living in todays job market for non professionals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #249
252. Again
You're acting like no one else here works for a living.

I'll have to try to call a few lawyers since it's after 5:00 here in Iowa and see how many I can get to come running.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #252
279. There is even MORE to the story!
Apparently, the reason that cop knew mom is because mom called the cops on the kid from the house, when she was THREE. AND...the cops had been called to the school before for a similar disruption.

There surely are parenting issues here, but I don't think teachers should be required to parent, they need to just be able to teach. I'm sure those teachers are breathing a sigh of relief, as the kid has been moved to a school for difficult children. I think the kid might need to be removed from the home, too. Something isn't right there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #279
332. Mom called the cops on a 3 year old???
Oh boy. How did you hear this?

If true, it sure sheds some more light on the child's home life, doesn't it? Add that to the related article's blip about the child riding her bike around the room while a brother stood on a table messing with a light fixture while the interview was taking place, and - Yes. I think you're right when you say something isn't right here.

sure wish this thread wasn't so bulky loading - even with DSL - very interesting reading everyone's input.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #332
341. I heard it on Keith Olbermann's show, last night
I'm taking him as a fairly reliable source! Keith noted that not only had MOM called the cops to the HOUSE when the kid was THREE because she was unable to control the child, but the SCHOOL had called the cops on the kid previously. I guess that explains the cop's "Remember me?" remark to the kid. Perhaps the cops were cuffing the kid based on an unpleasant past experience with flailing, punching, biting or whatnot.

He then had the lawyer on (have another twinkie, lawyer!) who flat-out reeked of opportunism...his main complaint was about how the whole situation "looked" and he gave good lawyers a bad name. He had some prosecutor on who clearly did not see the whole tape or even read the wire report or hear the background, because she was spouting off against the police while demonstrating that her command of the situation was totally incomplete--she made a host of factual errors and was in major "high dudgeon" mode.

Keith did not comment as to his sense of the situation one way or another--I think he thinks there's way more here than meets the eye.

I think there's something amiss in a BIG way with this kid, and it could be parenting, or it could be organic. In any event, the child does not appear to be a good candidate for mainstreaming, unless you want the other 30 kids (way too many in a classroom, IMHO) in the class to continue to suffer a compromised education to satisfy the needs of one. It's moot, anyway, as the kid has been reassigned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #341
365. ah. Thank you for the recap - and well done.
I sometimes regret that I stopped watching any news programming on television on November 3rd last year. (It was an effort to save what little sanity I have left.)

Your take is really appreciated and you painted the picture very nicely.

So, you saw what I'm beginning to think may be a big player in this whole thing. The lawyer. The lawyer who released the video to the press. The lawyer who is looking for outrage and sympathy from the public. The lawyer who probably stands to see a 'wee bit' of financial gain in his future (as well as publicity).

But, before I lean too far out there, decided to do a little research on the attorney. From what I found, even though (or maybe because) the man was at one time a police officer - http://www.trevena.com/aboutme.htm , many of the cases he's handled have involved suing police departments. Can't say that's a bad thing (they do need to be held accountable for their actions), but can say he does have experience. Maybe he's a true champion of the underdog. I don't know, but for what it's worth - Here's a few examples:

-

Bucs fan in tussle with officer convicted

Jurors side with authorities who said the man poured beer on a deputy near the end of a Bucs-Packers game.

By TAMARA LUSH, Times Staff Writer
St. Petersburg Times
published May 23, 2003

>snip<
Marshall's lawyer, John Trevena, called the verdict "shocking."

"It underscores the attitude of juries in the Tampa Bay area that police can do no wrong," Trevena said, adding that his client had three witnesses that supported his version of events.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/05/23/Tampabay/Bucs_fan_in_...

-

Tinted windows get spotty enforcement
Times Staff Writer - 2004-05-31 - LEANORA MINAI

>snip<
"It's a common excuse for what really is racial profiling," said criminal defense attorney John Trevena.

Trevena pointed to a 2001 case in which he represented a black man pulled over by Tarpon Springs Police twice in 24 hours.

Teddrion Flowers, 28, was in a car with illegal tint, but the sergeant did not cite him during the first stop, Trevena said. The next day, the sergeant pulled Flowers over again and wrote him a ticket for illegal tint. He also found marijuana and charged Flowers with possession with intent to sell.

Trevena, who believed the stop was a ruse, tried to get the case thrown out but was unsuccessful.

"The courts seem to go above and beyond to allow these types of traffic stops, which I find troubling," Trevena said.
http://www.tintcenter.com/news/15.html

-

Sheriff to Change Arrest Procedures Following Mistaken Jailing

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

ST. PETERSBURG, FL - Pinellas County Sheriff Everett Rice has promised to change arrest procedures after deputies jailed an innocent man for six days on a 33-year-old warrant.

Rice said his deputies should have taken more steps to verify the identity of James Douglas Anderson before arresting him last week on an old marijuana possession warrant from Miami-Dade County.
>snip<

Andersons attorney, John Trevena, said his client plans to sue both departments.

"How do you explain a six-day detention when it would take no more than 15 minutes to do the fingerprint comparison?" Trevena said.
http://www.clpex.com/Articles/Newz/2003/2003-08-22.htm

-

Sheriff T-shirt lands woman in trouble

Kimberly Sult wore a T-shirt from her former job to the store. Now she faces a misdemeanor charge.

By WILLIAM R. LEVESQUE

St. Petersburg Times, published June 20, 2001

ST. PETERSBURG -- Kimberly Sult's 16-month-old boy needed milk. So last Thursday night, she and two friends drove to the store.

She didn't give the T-shirt she wore a second thought.

>snip<
"When is Sheriff Rice going to realize the citizens of Pinellas County don't want their tax dollars squandered on clothing enforcement?" said Sult's attorney, John Trevena, who also represented the LAPD cap defendant.

"He should direct his resources to real crime."
http://www.sptimes.com/News/062001/TampaBay/Sheriff_T_s...

and a link to the LAPD cap case:
http://www.sptimes.com/News/040700/TampaBay/Man_arreste...

----

Don't really know what this is worth, but thought it might be a good idea to expand on this because, like you, I think there's more to this than meets the eye.

Sorry for adding so much more weight to this horribly overburdened thread. But there are many unanswered questions, as well as the as yet unasked ones.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #231
248. "feels free to whale on teachers like a boxing pro" Wow you have 0
sense of perspective. "Boxing pro" Thanks I needed to laugh at someone today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #248
280. Look at the video
That was not the senseless flailing of a kid--it was focused, head down, punching. And the fact that the cops have been to the kid's HOUSE, because mom could not control the kid, when she was THREE, suggests to me that this kid has learned how to get her way.

I laugh too, when people automatically see evil intent, uncaring and racism when underpaid schoolteachers are just trying to do their jobs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #231
292. Yes this kid
was behaving badly but she was still five years old. It's ridiculous that people are trying to excuse the incompetence of the administrators and the harsh actions of the police. People are acting like this behavior is unusual. I've seen it before in shopping malls, but the children were not black. They were yelling and screaming, calling the parents names, totally out of control. People were standing around looking as the parents tried to gain control of the unruly child. No police came to the scene at all. They couldn't handle a five year old. They could have restrained the child and told the parents they did so to prevent her from hurting herself. Instead they call the police causing further damage to an emotionally unstable child. And they are still being sued. That tape of the child crying as they put the cuffs on her made me sick. Every black person I've talked to about it is outraged.

What a sick society. We now call the cops to subdue five year olds. But of course, it's only done when the child is an African American. Everyone on the forum knows that this is not the only child ever to have thrown a tantrum in school. However, only the black child is handcuffed by the police. Incredibly, certain people seek to justify the behaviour of the police. Very disturbing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #222
358. No the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA)
prevents publicly funded schools from releasing a student's educational records without parental consent. A videotape of a child would be considered part of the child's educational record.

http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
221. WTF?
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:27 PM by Debi
<snip>

You need to stop," she tells her, using her hands to make the sign language signal for stop. "You don't get to wreck the room."

Using her radio, she calls for help from teacher Patti Tsaousis. She also asks the school office to call the girl's mother and tell her the school will have to call Pinellas Schools police if the behavior continues.

Word comes back that the mother would not be able to make it until 3:15 p.m. It is shortly after 2 p.m.


A short time later, the girl is heard off camera breaking a ceramic or plastic apple on Ottersbach's desk.

"Oh, you broke her apple," Dibenedetto says. "That is so sad

<snip>

If I got that call I'd be at the school in five minutes and my son had better have a damn good excuse of why I had to be called down there!

Who allows their child to destroy a classroom and not be available for an hour?

Edited: Now that I've watched both videos I am amazed at the idea that it is okay at any age to allow a child to climb on chairs/tables to destroy someone elses property, to destroy the AP's office, to punch and kick another person. ONLY when the police did the child decide to sit down - and then starts crying when she is held accountable for actions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
228. just watch the entire video and this is truly disgusting!!! these teachers
are the most incompetent creatures i have ever witnessed and the police should be SUED!!!!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #228
232. I watched it, and I side with the teachers and the PA
That kid is SERIOUSLY emotionally disturbed. It is not the first time they've called the cops to control her, because, not being the kid's parent, they can't yell at her or physically restrain her. All they can do is try to prevent her from hitting THEM. Those are the rules they are dealing with, and they did a good job at keeping their cool.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sikmik Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #232
275. I watched the video and really feel sorry for today's teachers
I went to a Catholic School in the late 50's and early 60's. The nuns would have used a yard stick on my knuckles if I behaved like that and then my mother or father would have done worse when I got home.
My daughter is receiving her Masters degree in Elementary Education on April 22 and I just hope she knows what she has gotten herself into.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #275
325. Welcome to DU sikmik!
Your first post! YAY!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #232
290. Institutional Education
=social engineering and institutional incarceration (sometimes called "your job").

A crime against this girl's hopes and dreams. Squelching her curiosity and free spirit.

everyone will focus on the individual incident. Compulsory government schooling is punitive in nature and needs to be eliminated not "fixed".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shayes51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #232
371. They certainly did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #228
237. oh please. get real.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #228
253. Yes all the adults involved were fools.
More concerned with covering their own asses than actually doing their job. I thought things were bad when I was growing up but I swear this generation (my own) has some of the dumbest, selfish fuckers ever to run the earth.

When I was in school this would have never went this far.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #253
257. Why? would your parents have left work to come get you? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #253
550. They have to be concerned with covering their asses.
They have a job to be responsible to their own families as well, not just to be the martyrs in service to parents who sent disturbed kids to school.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #228
610. What, exactly, would you have done differently?
Grabbed the child? Forced them to sit down? You'd have been arrested and sued for assault.

Hugged the child? You'd have been accused of molestation AND fired, because that's not legal anymore.

Yelled at the child? Sorry, that violates every tenet of modern educational theory. Yell at a kid in your class and you'll find yourself unemployed in a heartbeat.

The teachers reacted in the only way they are legally permitted to nowadays.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
230. Imagine the outrage
If this girl had of been white, it will be all over CNN and Faux.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
273. More and more incidents like this. We should all be concerned.
Not just outraged.

For the ENTIRE issue.

Not just that the girl has some sort of emotional disorder. What caused her to go into that tailspin behavior?

I was like her, once... it took a particular action from any particular student to set me off. I never did it of my own accord; I reacted to hate the only way I knew how. Yes, hate.

And I bet someone was taunting her too.

Fix the problem, don't shove the symptom. That cures nothing and makes the mess worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
277. If the mainstream got hold of this
There would be riots.

If I had a child and he or she misbehaved, I would expect to get a phonecall from the school's princpal for me to come and collect her.

I wouldnt expect the school to call the police and handcuff her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #277
281. It already has--Olbermann had it on tonight n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
283. What a god-awful teacher this kid must have had
Wouldn't have happened w/ either an a)competent teacher or b)passed a rudimentary classroom management course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shayes51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #283
362. That's right. Blame the teacher. Soon nobody
in their right mind will go into education.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
288. Before the police showed up, she needed cuffing.
She was going crazy.

But she calmed down once she saw them. They didn't need to cuff her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #288
303. What she needed was a spanking. No five year old needs to be
cuffed. She didn't have a weapon but her five year old fists. And yes, since she calmed down the cuffs were not needed. Having three authoritive figures with guns come at her probably scared her to death. I felt bad for her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #303
397. Only one cop was there to do the deed, the 2 others were "trainees"
...doing a tag-along to learn the ropes. For all we know that 'mean cop' was the designated school Officer Friendly...and I didn't see any cops coming at the kid with guns. Sheesh.

I feel bad for the kid, too, she's DISTURBED. And I feel bad for her 30 classmates, who may get an extra question or two wrong on their BUSHCO 'no child properly educated' test because that little fart screwed up their lesson for the day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #397
443. I don't mean cops coming at her like they would an armed bandit
but in the eyes of that little five year old girl, it may have seemed that way. Imo, she will fear cops now. And I don't know that much about this little girl's life, so I wouldn't call her disturbed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #443
468. That was her third encounter (minimum) with the law
Starting from age three, when MOM called them. She knew that cop, they'd met before.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eauclaireliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
295. Anyone take the poll?
"Bad behavior results
Do you think it is ever appropriate for police to handcuff a small child?"

Yes. 3810 votes - 69%

No. 1723 votes - 31%

What the FUCK is the matter with these pigs?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #295
410. I agree--it is symptom of where America is going (2/3 say OK)--beyond
sad!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brettdale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
308. they shouldnt of cuffed her
I have just watched video on the web, we dont get olderman here, as soon as the cops came she got all quiet, it was over the top, hey did they read her, her rights? they shouldnt of cuffed her, heck as I write this message the video has just appeared on our news here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
310. What would all of you do to a child so out of control?
So.. . we're supposed to feel all sad and indignant that a girl screamed because she got cuffed after she physically assaulted adults and trashed a classroom? Wow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
312. That is NOT A NORMAL TANTRUM.
I"m shocked that people are acting like this kid was just refusing to eat broccoli and stomping around. She was out of control for over an hour.. and she physically assaulted adults and was trying to trash the classroom. This was not a standard tantrum. This poor kid obviously has problems, and is not suitable for regular classrooms right now.

Sorry to everyone that thinks a soothing voice is going to stop a kid in that condition. It doesn't. I worked at a home for children who were abused, neglected, and mostly had issues with violence and anger, (YES, even at 5 years old!). They had to be physically restrained often... there is specific training for that. For whatever reason, this little girl was unable to stop her violent outburst.

Wonder how terrified the other children were when she was violently acting out? Or do we only care that the child who was so violent was upset that she was cuffed.

I'm always amazed at how provincial people on DU can be. As if you have never experienced the difference between a violent child and a child having a tantrum. There is a difference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top