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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:48 AM
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Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old (FL) warning - picture
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 06:49 AM by soup


"No. Noooooo," the girl screams as police place metal handcuffs on her. They later switch to "zip-ties" to fit her small wrists.


Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old

The girl's teacher videotaped her class that day as a self-improvement exercise. An attorney calls the arrest "absurd" and "excessive."

By THOMAS C. TOBIN, Times Staff Writer
Published April 22, 2005


ST. PETERSBURG - Videotape was rolling March 14 when the 5-year-old girl swung again and again, her bantam punches landing on the outstretched palms of Nicole Dibenedetto, the new assistant principal at Fairmount Park Elementary.

She tore papers off Dibenedetto's bulletin board and desk. She climbed on a table four times. About an hour had passed since she refused to participate in a kindergarten math lesson, which escalated into a series of defiant and destructive acts.

-

As St. Petersburg police officers arrived shortly after 3 p.m., the girl suddenly sat quietly at Dibenedetto's table. And, just as suddenly, the tactics used by educators gave way to the more direct approach of law enforcement.

An officer sternly said the girl's name. Then: "You need to calm down. You need to do it now. OK?"

Seconds later, three officers approached and placed their hands on the girl's wrists and upper arms. They stood her up, put her arms behind her back and put on handcuffs. She bent over the table and let out a terrified scream.
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/22/Southpinellas/Video_s...
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   Replies to this thread
  - Now if the little girl was white, Bill O'Reilly would be outraged. n/t  rooboy   Apr-22-05 06:50 AM   #1 
  - Just what I was thinking  SweetLeftFoot   Apr-22-05 06:52 AM   #2 
  - excellent post (n/t)  fishwax   Apr-22-05 02:57 PM   #184 
  - Watch the video - you will change you rmind  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 07:42 PM   #260 
  - The last time your kid had a tantrum, did you call the police?  hector459   Apr-23-05 12:20 AM   #305 
  - Nope  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 02:00 AM   #322 
  - If I can calm down a 300lb person during a psychotic episode  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 04:51 AM   #327 
  - Yes, I've come to that conclusion after diving into this thread. nt  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 07:54 PM   #438 
  - Terrible, but school officials may not be allowed to "restrain" kids...  holboz   Apr-23-05 11:31 PM   #470 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-25-05 05:31 PM   #562 
  - handcuffs are NOT needed-I watched!!  rodeodance   Apr-23-05 03:23 PM   #405 
  - I've come to that conclusion after readin this thread. No cuffs needed. nt  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 07:55 PM   #439 
  - I have watched the video..  youngdem   Apr-24-05 09:10 AM   #493 
     - Sigh.  phylny   Apr-25-05 05:52 AM   #530 
  - Nail on head.  SunDrop23   Apr-22-05 09:56 PM   #289 
  - I agree  IntiRaymi   Apr-22-05 11:09 PM   #297 
  - At least!  Montauk6   Apr-24-05 01:08 AM   #482 
  - Florida, right?  Pigwidgeon   Apr-22-05 06:56 AM   #3 
  - Being a librul in Texas is tough....  AnneD   Apr-22-05 07:08 AM   # 
  - Well said Anne  lyonn   Apr-23-05 12:14 AM   #304 
  - she was in the principals office. and in my opinion it's not the  okieinpain   Apr-23-05 12:21 PM   #388 
     - they put cuffs on her to take her TO the principles office. She was in  rodeodance   Apr-23-05 03:25 PM   #406 
        - WRONG. They were applied in the AP office. See the tape. nt  MADem   Apr-23-05 08:13 PM   #441 
        - no she was not. look at the tape please. unless that is one  okieinpain   Apr-23-05 10:32 PM   #456 
  - They're really giving Texas a run for their money...  smirkymonkey   Apr-22-05 09:24 AM   #95 
  - It's amazing. You can always guess Florida or Texas  MidwestTransplant   Apr-22-05 10:20 AM   #119 
  - We dont handcuff our kids in Texas...  Jack_DeLeon   Apr-22-05 04:09 PM   #196 
     - Not in our district  AnneD   Apr-23-05 05:32 AM   #329 
  - Aren'cha sick of Florida and Texas bringing us shit like this?  confludemocrat   Apr-25-05 05:35 PM   #563 
  - Who the hell would find this OK?  etherealtruth   Apr-22-05 06:57 AM   #4 
  - Not this parent-of-a-five-year-old  bunkerbuster1   Apr-22-05 08:16 AM   #69 
  - would your five year old have a tantrum like that.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 10:16 AM   #116 
  - Not unless it was you barking orders  bunkerbuster1   Apr-22-05 11:03 AM   #144 
     - really so you would do what with this kid. please do tell.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 11:13 AM   #145 
     - If I were a teacher  bunkerbuster1   Apr-22-05 11:52 AM   #152 
     - I don't know what else you could do with that kid  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 07:46 PM   #262 
        - That is not what I saw in that video - you should watch it again  Lauri   Apr-23-05 08:20 PM   #442 
     - I can tell you what NOT to do  Scairp   Apr-22-05 02:05 PM   #175 
     - And she'll probably  libhill   Apr-22-05 04:21 PM   #199 
     - that shit was beyond having a tantrum. she knew exactly what  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:28 PM   #214 
     - I don't know what I would do but you are probably right  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 07:49 PM   #263 
     - Hey, how about putting her in a room till she quieted.  BrendaStarr   Apr-23-05 12:23 AM   #307 
        - The video was not in black and white  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 01:53 AM   #321 
     - It's easy for some people to call a tantrum  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 09:23 PM   #284 
     - On the flip side:  frustrated_lefty   Apr-22-05 10:11 PM   #293 
        - You are talking about rules  Tomee450   Apr-23-05 03:40 PM   #411 
        - Excuse me?  frustrated_lefty   Apr-24-05 11:31 AM   #495 
           - You have a right  Tomee450   Apr-24-05 01:16 PM   #498 
           - Hmmm... I agree with you...  Chrisduhfur   Apr-25-05 01:36 PM   #539 
           - Some people turn everything into an race issue...  Chrisduhfur   Apr-25-05 01:32 PM   #538 
              - Of course you don't think  Tomee450   Apr-25-05 03:31 PM   #542 
                 - You're right....  Chrisduhfur   Apr-25-05 05:52 PM   #565 
        - That's the problem, I think.  tblue37   Apr-23-05 10:05 PM   #453 
           - Yes.  frustrated_lefty   Apr-24-05 11:21 AM   #494 
     - Yeah because 5 year olds are so cognizant of the repercussions of their  dawgman   Apr-22-05 11:08 PM   #296 
     - Maybe Both Sides Have A Point  iamjoy   Apr-23-05 09:00 AM   #359 
     - you're right, they have no idea of repercussions of their actions.  okieinpain   Apr-23-05 12:18 PM   #387 
        - I have a very precocious seven year old and have dealt with tantrums  dawgman   Apr-23-05 07:03 PM   #428 
           - that's just it. you can't spank somebody elses kid. you will get  okieinpain   Apr-23-05 10:33 PM   #457 
     - Beyond having a tantrum and knew what she was doing?  BrendaStarr   Apr-23-05 12:20 AM   #306 
     - Oh, yeah, I call the cops all the time when a 5-year-old goes nuts  JackRiddler   Apr-23-05 11:00 PM   #464 
     - I agree. This is just bizarre.  tinfoilinfor2005   Apr-22-05 08:45 PM   #278 
     - That would be the solution... 1) call the cops  LiberalFighter   Apr-23-05 01:05 PM   #398 
     - Are you saying this was appropriate?  nothingshocksmeanymore   Apr-22-05 04:03 PM   #195 
     - yes, probably in everybodys best interest.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:11 PM   #206 
        - Well, this is the way I see it  Scairp   Apr-22-05 07:05 PM   #245 
        - Jack booted thugs? Come on, let's keep this conversation serious  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 07:52 PM   #264 
        - Yep  Scairp   Apr-22-05 08:19 PM   #272 
        - Yep (continued)  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 11:18 PM   #299 
           - Clearly, you don't have a clue  Scairp   Apr-23-05 02:15 AM   #324 
              - I am 38 YEARS OLD and am still terrorized  Cornczech   Apr-23-05 07:12 AM   #343 
              - Not disagreeing with you on no need for the cops  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 07:52 PM   #437 
        - Have you ever had you wrists zipped tied behind your back?  dawgman   Apr-22-05 11:12 PM   #298 
           - If you yank hard, it hurts  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 11:29 PM   #301 
           - the police are only necessary to maintain the status quo.  dawgman   Apr-22-05 11:57 PM   #302 
           - Tell that to the tweekers down the street  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 01:50 AM   #320 
              - If their was true equality and justice in our society would people be d  dawgman   Apr-23-05 11:37 AM   #380 
                 - How did you get that out of what I said?  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 07:40 PM   #435 
           - Learning to be docile at the hands of the cops?  alarcoeg   Apr-23-05 11:42 AM   #384 
              - No argument from me on that one.  MeinaShaw   Apr-23-05 07:47 PM   #436 
           - 66% or respondents think it's ok to handcuff a small child!  pnutchuck   Apr-23-05 02:19 PM   #403 
        - Jack booted thugs?  libhill   Apr-23-05 11:14 AM   #376 
        - to handcuff a 5 year girl--NO WAY!!  rodeodance   Apr-23-05 03:29 PM   #408 
     - You seem to be advocating this as being acceptable?  Horse with no Name   Apr-22-05 04:27 PM   #200 
     - oh god please, please. don't give me that crap  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:10 PM   #205 
     - So you advocate torture and inhumane practices against young children?  Horse with no Name   Apr-22-05 05:25 PM   #212 
        - oh bullshit. give me a break.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:33 PM   #217 
        - Torture? Inhumane? What did they do to her...  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 08:00 PM   #266 
           - What they did is  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 09:16 PM   #282 
           - The kid was not traumatized. It brought her to her senses.  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 10:50 PM   #294 
              - why do ya'll say  Cornczech   Apr-23-05 07:21 AM   #345 
              - You don't know what  Tomee450   Apr-23-05 04:02 PM   #415 
                 - I am so sorry that happened to you.  Horse with no Name   Apr-24-05 04:12 PM   #508 
                 - Thank you.  Tomee450   Apr-24-05 07:25 PM   #514 
                 - I am so sorry you had that experience and  nodehopper   Apr-26-05 12:39 PM   #608 
           - I am a nurse  Horse with no Name   Apr-23-05 11:26 AM   #378 
              - Great story and I think it really solidifies the argument against  pnutchuck   Apr-23-05 02:12 PM   #402 
              - Thanks  GinaMaria   Apr-24-05 02:42 PM   #504 
              - Agree - good post  Demgirl   Apr-24-05 08:47 PM   #522 
     - You seem to have the right solution  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 07:55 PM   #265 
     - My thoughts, exactly...  ngGale   Apr-23-05 02:03 AM   #323 
     - Why do you think she would have to be older for them to decide to  tblue37   Apr-23-05 10:22 PM   #455 
     - I disagree  Daphne08   Apr-23-05 05:59 AM   #335 
     - When I was in school  bloom   Apr-22-05 07:29 PM   #255 
        - it was enough to make you behave  axollot   Apr-22-05 10:03 PM   #291 
     - By the time the cops arrived, the little girl was sitting quietly  tblue37   Apr-22-05 01:10 PM   #164 
        - well there might be a out of court settlement, but I don't have a  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:13 PM   #208 
           - I'm going to jump in and agree with you.  Debi   Apr-22-05 05:39 PM   #219 
  - Beat a dog, beat a kid.  tsuki   Apr-22-05 07:29 PM   #256 
  - Did you watch the video? nt  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 07:43 PM   #261 
  - Well, I guess I'm gonna catch hell with this one...  Montauk6   Apr-24-05 01:14 AM   #483 
  - What? No taser?  mbperrin   Apr-22-05 06:59 AM   #5 
  - You guys would just strap her to Ol' Sparky.  MemphisTiger   Apr-22-05 07:01 AM   #6 
  - Or let Texas Supreme Priscilla Owen rule a change of venue  mbperrin   Apr-22-05 07:08 AM   #9 
     - Same here!  patsified   Apr-22-05 07:17 AM   #15 
     - All right! Copy #1 pre-sold! Gotta start now!  mbperrin   Apr-22-05 08:20 AM   #72 
     - Don't ever say that!  meganmonkey   Apr-22-05 09:24 AM   #97 
        - We need to have a meeting for DUers in the AA area!  patsified   Apr-22-05 09:35 AM   #103 
        - Never say never  AnneD   Apr-23-05 05:56 AM   #334 
     - I'm in Texas  libhill   Apr-22-05 07:20 AM   #18 
        - Are you in Liberty Hill?  Longhorn   Apr-23-05 09:35 AM   #364 
           - Hello there  libhill   Apr-23-05 09:48 AM   #368 
  - I'd buy that book.  cybildisobedience   Apr-22-05 08:46 AM   #87 
  - Yeah, she was one of the lucky ones.  Scairp   Apr-22-05 03:18 PM   #188 
  - Someone already did. Did you not see 60 minues last Sunday?  Massacure   Apr-22-05 05:38 PM   #218 
  - Beat me to it :X n/t  darkism   Apr-22-05 06:54 PM   #241 
  - No, our new rules permit tasers only on restrained suspects  Peregrine   Apr-23-05 10:31 AM   #372 
  - or if they are sleeping in school (see Du thread on this issue)  rodeodance   Apr-23-05 03:27 PM   #407 
  - The kid that they zapped with taser  Freddie Stubbs   Apr-26-05 01:28 PM   #612 
  - OMFG...  rockedthevoteinMA   Apr-22-05 07:04 AM   #7 
  - Not A "Defender" per se  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 07:25 AM   #24 
     - Thanks for sharing your experience. That's horrible that it occurs  rockedthevoteinMA   Apr-22-05 07:37 AM   #32 
     - Interestingly enough  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 07:46 AM   #45 
     - Back in the 70s she would have gotten paddled  LeighAnn   Apr-22-05 10:20 AM   #120 
     - B.I.N.G.O. NT/  BadNews   Apr-22-05 06:33 PM   #235 
     - sadly, I have to agree.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 06:53 PM   #240 
     - Endorsing child assault?  darkism   Apr-22-05 07:00 PM   #242 
     - It is the natural order  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 08:05 PM   #268 
     - Sadly, you are correct.  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 08:02 PM   #267 
     - In my day, they called it the "REFORM SCHOOL"  MADem   Apr-22-05 05:10 PM   #204 
     - Behavior Starts at Home  anitar1   Apr-22-05 06:11 PM   #227 
        - Behavior starts in the vats of the food industry. If we were not  tsuki   Apr-22-05 07:35 PM   #258 
           - Yes, before processed foods kids were all perfect ladies and  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 04:05 PM   #544 
     - My nephew had a kid like this in his Kindergarten class...  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-22-05 07:52 AM   #54 
     - Precisely  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 07:57 AM   #58 
     - Schoolteachers as babysitters.....  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-22-05 08:20 AM   #73 
     - A 5 year old and a 7th grader  mmcghenn   Apr-22-05 09:34 AM   #101 
     - Clarification  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 09:49 AM   #106 
     - I have an essay on my _Teacher, Teacher_ website  tblue37   Apr-22-05 01:23 PM   #167 
     - Great articles...  susanna   Apr-22-05 08:27 PM   #274 
        - Thanks, Susanna.  tblue37   Apr-23-05 08:40 AM   #355 
           - No, thank you...  susanna   Apr-23-05 11:38 PM   #471 
              - Um, maybe not all of them.  tblue37   Apr-24-05 12:52 AM   #481 
     - Well  libhill   Apr-22-05 04:14 PM   #197 
     - I Have 6 Friends Who Have Left Teaching Careers  anitar1   Apr-22-05 06:20 PM   #229 
     - You said it.  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-23-05 01:07 AM   #313 
     - and don't forget aggressive parents...  AnneD   Apr-23-05 07:04 AM   #342 
     - This is one of the reasons I left teaching.  Daphne08   Apr-23-05 06:31 AM   #339 
     - re: personal attendants  yorkiemommie1   Apr-22-05 08:31 AM   #80 
     - Children are- -  oneold1-4u   Apr-22-05 10:19 AM   #118 
     - I take offense at your last statement  Debi   Apr-22-05 05:54 PM   #223 
        - Sorry you took offense  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-23-05 12:58 AM   #311 
     - Hi, TornadoTN.  soup   Apr-22-05 08:01 AM   #60 
     - Thanks!  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 08:18 AM   #71 
     - Probably a combination  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-22-05 08:32 AM   #81 
        - Agreed  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 08:51 AM   #89 
           - I appreciate your insights  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-22-05 09:34 AM   #102 
     - A student who threatened to kill people in class got a slap on the wrist?  WI_DEM   Apr-22-05 09:22 AM   #94 
     - One would think  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 09:30 AM   #100 
     - There were obviously mitigating factors.  youspeakmylanguage   Apr-22-05 10:57 AM   #143 
     - I feel sorry for teachers  JNelson6563   Apr-22-05 09:56 AM   #109 
     - However, there is a huge difference between a 7th grader's understanding  pnutchuck   Apr-23-05 02:54 PM   #404 
  - Self Delete  vi5   Apr-22-05 07:05 AM   #8 
  - Why didn't they call her parents instead of the police?  nonconformist   Apr-22-05 07:08 AM   #10 
  - Maybe because SHE's BLACK ? eom  pokercat999   Apr-22-05 07:12 AM   #12 
  - They did.  soup   Apr-22-05 07:14 AM   #13 
  - Prepare to be flamed....  vi5   Apr-22-05 07:20 AM   #16 
  - lol, need to warm up my coffee anyway.  soup   Apr-22-05 07:22 AM   #20 
  - All I know is....  vi5   Apr-22-05 07:24 AM   #22 
  - You don't know WHY she was behaving "that way", do you?....  Media_Lies_Daily   Apr-22-05 07:52 AM   #55 
  - See, I'd be more concerned with the WHY  nonconformist   Apr-22-05 07:58 AM   #59 
  - Her mom was probably working for a place that would fire her for...  Media_Lies_Daily   Apr-22-05 08:12 AM   #65 
  - they have to call the police, that's how they cover their asses.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:26 PM   #213 
  - What I think they could have done....  cannabis_flower   Apr-22-05 08:50 AM   #88 
  - No, I don't. And whatever the reason, I hope she gets help....  vi5   Apr-22-05 08:02 AM   #61 
  - Exactly. What this girl was doing was outrageous  Pawel K   Apr-22-05 09:24 AM   #96 
  - The child's behavior was outrageous.  tblue37   Apr-22-05 01:40 PM   #168 
  - Her behavior was fairly normal  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:24 AM   #124 
  - No, It Is NOT Normal  Crisco   Apr-22-05 12:42 PM   #162 
  - Did you watch  Demgirl   Apr-24-05 08:45 PM   #520 
  - Wow! You Are Knowledgeable n/t  anitar1   Apr-22-05 06:35 PM   #236 
  - NORMAL??  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 12:34 PM   #392 
     - Already do  Demgirl   Apr-24-05 08:46 PM   #521 
  - The help she is going to get it to put her on drugs. That worse than ...  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 08:09 PM   #271 
  - If someone showed me a video of my child acting that, I would  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:32 PM   #216 
     - and if anyone found out that you did  bloom   Apr-22-05 07:40 PM   #259 
     - nope. sorry they would not. hate to hurt your feelings.  okieinpain   Apr-23-05 10:59 PM   #463 
        - And I hate to hurt YOUR feelings  bloom   Apr-24-05 01:48 PM   #500 
           - sorry, but it would not happen. I know a parent that spank their  okieinpain   Apr-24-05 06:20 PM   #511 
     - Well, that says alot  Demgirl   Apr-24-05 08:49 PM   #523 
  - that's how I feel about it. I think that they handled the situation as  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 10:23 AM   #122 
  - Eh, no flames here, but I'll have some of that coffee if  DS1   Apr-22-05 07:24 AM   #23 
     - Thanks, DS1.  soup   Apr-22-05 07:51 AM   #51 
  - Won't get flammed by me nt  MeinaShaw   Apr-22-05 08:07 PM   #270 
  - Thanks  nonconformist   Apr-22-05 07:40 AM   #38 
  - How many children do you have? How many children have you...  Media_Lies_Daily   Apr-22-05 07:50 AM   #50 
  - I have 2 children, ages 7 and almost 10  nonconformist   Apr-22-05 07:54 AM   #56 
     - I have two additional questions....  Media_Lies_Daily   Apr-22-05 08:05 AM   #63 
     - Again....what should have been done?  vi5   Apr-22-05 08:12 AM   #64 
     - The solution IMHO would have involved...  Media_Lies_Daily   Apr-22-05 08:25 AM   #77 
     - That's exactly what I was thinking  theHandpuppet   Apr-22-05 08:53 AM   #90 
     - Ding! Ding! Ding! theHandpuppet said it, right there  patsified   Apr-22-05 09:53 AM   #107 
     - For some the time out room works. For some, they just up the violence  havocmom   Apr-22-05 10:47 AM   #137 
     - yes yes yes  chickenscratching   Apr-22-05 11:33 AM   #150 
     - How do you get her to out of the room?  vi5   Apr-22-05 09:42 AM   #105 
     - Most 5 year olds will respond to gentle touch and quiet voices  Horse with no Name   Apr-22-05 04:40 PM   #202 
     - I Disagree  Crisco   Apr-22-05 12:48 PM   #163 
        - Thank You, Crisco, I totally agree. n/t  anitar1   Apr-22-05 06:41 PM   #239 
     - Well for one thing, the cops didn't have to cuff her  fishwax   Apr-22-05 03:13 PM   #185 
     - Oh, young kids have tantrums  nonconformist   Apr-22-05 08:24 AM   #75 
     - I have studied and worked with young kids for years too and only saw  havocmom   Apr-22-05 10:38 AM   #135 
        - Excellent post.  tblue37   Apr-22-05 01:51 PM   #170 
        - Hey, tblue37, thanks for the link to your essay  havocmom   Apr-22-05 05:13 PM   #207 
        - excellent post, and to the point.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:31 PM   #215 
        - I totally agree  phylny   Apr-23-05 05:55 AM   #333 
     - Watch the first video  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:26 AM   #127 
  - thank you. can you imagine what she could do to one of her  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 10:26 AM   #128 
  - No, such violent tantrums are not normal, especially not at that age.  tblue37   Apr-22-05 01:44 PM   #169 
  - I don't give a darn how she was behaving...you don't CUFF A CHILD!!!...  Media_Lies_Daily   Apr-22-05 07:48 AM   #47 
  - Agreed. You can restrain a 5 yr. old w/o cuffs. Ridiculous. n/t  RaRa   Apr-22-05 08:16 AM   #68 
  - what do you suggest?  Evergreen Emerald   Apr-22-05 08:33 AM   #82 
     - Wasn't it just last week we had a news story about a mom calling 911  havocmom   Apr-22-05 10:55 AM   #142 
  - Okay, so what was their Plan B? The cops?!  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 06:58 PM   #427 
  - Kids that act like that probably won't listen to parents either  Freddie Stubbs   Apr-22-05 01:56 PM   #172 
  - Don't cops in Florida  libhill   Apr-22-05 07:11 AM   #11 
  - OK, "they" called the police so the police HAD to respond ...  etherealtruth   Apr-22-05 07:16 AM   #14 
  - Does make you wonder -  libhill   Apr-22-05 07:27 AM   #25 
  - "Don't cops in Florida",Have any real Law Enforcement work to do?  TX-RAT   Apr-22-05 02:26 PM   #179 
     - Amen to that  libhill   Apr-22-05 03:52 PM   #192 
  - Why don't they have a clean well lighted place with a caring adult  lostnfound   Apr-22-05 07:20 AM   #17 
  - Seems like she got caught up with 3 yrs or parenting when those cuffs  DS1   Apr-22-05 07:20 AM   #19 
  - My son is five. This makes me vomit.  patsified   Apr-22-05 07:24 AM   #21 
  - The problem is that the school is not allowed to touch her  MollyStark   Apr-22-05 07:35 AM   #31 
  - Not necessary  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:06 AM   #112 
     - How would you handle it without touching the child?  MollyStark   Apr-23-05 08:44 AM   #356 
     - Good question  LizW   Apr-24-05 08:00 AM   #491 
     - Teaching Education Majors learn to teach - not to police the disturbed  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 05:30 PM   #560 
        - Self Fulfilling Prophecy  Demgirl   Apr-26-05 12:21 AM   #582 
  - Exactly  SCDem   Apr-22-05 07:37 AM   #34 
  - yeah, but in my day you threw a tantrum like that and your ass  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 11:17 AM   #146 
     - It is sickening  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 02:07 PM   #176 
     - bull shit, I'm black and I don't have a problem with this. you  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:19 PM   #209 
        - Bullshit right back at you.  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 09:40 PM   #286 
           - Ai ai ai....Okie, I feel your pain  Beel2112   Apr-23-05 01:26 AM   #319 
              - Baloney  Tomee450   Apr-23-05 04:37 PM   #417 
              - Pathetic.  Beel2112   Apr-24-05 12:28 AM   #479 
                 - Behavioral problems - possible cause?  fortyfeetunder   Apr-24-05 12:42 AM   #480 
                 - Blah, blah, blah  Tomee450   Apr-24-05 01:54 PM   #501 
                    - Classic example of why racism isn't taken seriously enough.  Beel2112   Apr-24-05 03:53 PM   #507 
                       - Oh please spare me.  Tomee450   Apr-24-05 08:23 PM   #517 
                          - When you're in a hole...  Beel2112   Apr-25-05 01:21 AM   #528 
                             - Don't be ridiculous  Tomee450   Apr-25-05 04:05 PM   #545 
                                - Way to ignore the facts...  Beel2112   Apr-25-05 05:26 PM   #559 
                                   - Hmmm is it just me or tomee seem a bit extreme?  Chrisduhfur   Apr-25-05 09:24 PM   #579 
                                      - It's not you...  Beel2112   Apr-26-05 10:46 AM   #592 
              - LoL nice cartoon man...  Chrisduhfur   Apr-25-05 01:47 PM   #540 
                 - Ill Will Press!  Beel2112   Apr-25-05 05:31 PM   #561 
     - If speaking up against the handcuffing of a 5-yr-old  fishwax   Apr-22-05 03:16 PM   #187 
        - she only sat her ass down when she saw the police coming. I  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:21 PM   #210 
           - If my kid were in the class, I still wouldn't think it justified to  fishwax   Apr-22-05 05:42 PM   #220 
           - Unbelievable  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 09:46 PM   #287 
              - it did not subside by the time they arrived. she stopped because  okieinpain   Apr-23-05 10:40 PM   #459 
                 - Her knowing right from  Tomee450   Apr-24-05 02:05 PM   #502 
                    - oh man, what is wrong with folks. it is not ok for a child of any age  okieinpain   Apr-24-05 06:25 PM   #512 
                       - I am not suggesting  Tomee450   Apr-24-05 08:37 PM   #518 
                          - But there was a VERY good reason to cuff her. The teachers were  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 05:21 PM   #556 
                          - You may have missed the video  Ms. Toad   Apr-25-05 07:01 PM   #567 
                          - What utter rubbish  Tomee450   Apr-25-05 07:49 PM   #570 
                             - Her own MOTHER called the police - is she a racist too?  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 08:12 PM   #575 
                          - I still don't understand how you can ignore so much. their hands  okieinpain   Apr-25-05 10:21 PM   #581 
  - of course! she's black! i didn't even read it, just looked at the picture.  genevat   Apr-22-05 07:29 AM   #26 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-22-05 10:38 AM   #134 
  - well now that's just crazy. race isn't the determing factor. it's  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 11:22 AM   #147 
  - Are they? Do you have any links/statistics on that?  patsified   Apr-22-05 11:27 AM   #149 
  - Hunh?  soup   Apr-22-05 12:34 PM   #159 
  - i don't think race has to do with disruption  genevat   Apr-22-05 02:26 PM   #178 
  - oh i'm sure that had nothing to do with it!  fishwax   Apr-22-05 03:18 PM   #189 
  - This is so horrible!!  demnan   Apr-22-05 07:31 AM   #27 
  - Why Are Kids Filled With Rage? Why Aren't Parents Helping Them?  cryingshame   Apr-22-05 07:31 AM   #28 
  - She could be autistic. Her parents may not have the money for the help  bushisanidiot   Apr-22-05 07:49 AM   #48 
  - I thought of autism also until I saw her sit down when she saw the cops.  Skarbrowe   Apr-23-05 11:40 AM   #381 
  - Maybe she was reacting to her previous encounters with...  Media_Lies_Daily   Apr-22-05 07:55 AM   #57 
  - All negative! The teacher and assistant followed the child  rainy   Apr-22-05 07:34 AM   #29 
  - I agree to a certain extent, but how long should that have to go on?  vi5   Apr-22-05 07:37 AM   #33 
  - If the teacher is competent  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:35 AM   #131 
  - I'm sorry.. that's freakin' hilarious!  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 01:10 AM   #315 
     - What utter nonsense  Tomee450   Apr-23-05 04:46 PM   #418 
        - No cops were called BECAUSE the parents took care of it  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-24-05 04:14 PM   #509 
  - O.K. i just have to ask this even if I get flamed....  vi5   Apr-22-05 07:35 AM   #30 
  - Some one did  libhill   Apr-22-05 07:39 AM   #35 
  - And that is a good suggestion..but how to get her there?  vi5   Apr-22-05 07:40 AM   #39 
  - As well, schools take anything deemed violent very seriously  nonconformist   Apr-22-05 07:52 AM   #53 
  - isolating her in a room ?  TX-RAT   Apr-22-05 02:34 PM   #181 
  - I still say  libhill   Apr-22-05 03:56 PM   #193 
  - The teacher only prevented her from causing further distruction  MollyStark   Apr-23-05 09:01 AM   #360 
  - Couldn't she have been sent to the principals office  SCDem   Apr-22-05 07:39 AM   #36 
  - Don't want to be put in a 'defending the police action here,  soup   Apr-22-05 07:44 AM   #42 
     - Great observations  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 07:50 AM   #49 
     - Hey, tornado, you've done a great job of  Redstone   Apr-22-05 10:25 AM   #126 
        - Thanks Redstone  TornadoTN   Apr-22-05 10:50 AM   #140 
     - There are ways  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:05 AM   #111 
  - Sensible points well made.........  Pert_UK   Apr-22-05 07:42 AM   #40 
  - No flames...  rockedthevoteinMA   Apr-22-05 07:42 AM   #41 
  - Exactly. Thank you...  vi5   Apr-22-05 07:45 AM   #43 
  - Question #4. Why Are Kids Filled With So Much Anger?  cryingshame   Apr-22-05 08:39 AM   #85 
  - My Mom had to lock herself and another student in a locker  medeak   Apr-22-05 10:13 AM   #113 
  - That's probably because the mother had called them in the past..  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 12:32 PM   #391 
  - Thinking back  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:13 AM   #114 
  - I take issue with calling the cops  fortyfeetunder   Apr-22-05 10:24 AM   #123 
  - i agree with you, if the child will act like that with an adult. imagine  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 11:24 AM   #148 
  - By the time the cops arrived, the little girl was sitting quietly  tblue37   Apr-22-05 01:58 PM   #174 
  - No flame here. The cops should have brought the parents there.  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 01:12 AM   #316 
  - those cops shouldn't be reprimanded or suspended . . .  OneBlueSky   Apr-22-05 07:40 AM   #37 
  - I think it's called  libhill   Apr-22-05 07:47 AM   #46 
  - White cops handcuffing a black 5 year old girl. Only in AWOL Bush's admin.  bushisanidiot   Apr-22-05 07:46 AM   #44 
  - It seems after watching the video that a hug could have avoided  carpediem   Apr-22-05 07:52 AM   #52 
  - that's why I could never be a teacher today . . .  OneBlueSky   Apr-22-05 08:03 AM   #62 
  - I agree. Were you a teacher? n/t  carpediem   Apr-22-05 08:13 AM   #67 
     - not exactly . . . I was a specialized foster parent working with . . .  OneBlueSky   Apr-22-05 09:12 AM   #92 
  - 100% agreed and I say hug and smile, and firmly, within the hug, hold her  coffeenap   Apr-22-05 08:17 AM   #70 
  - Yes - if the door is open and there are witnesses and  carpediem   Apr-22-05 08:30 AM   #79 
     - I'd be unhappy if they didn't!  coffeenap   Apr-22-05 09:12 AM   #91 
  - I thought the same thing...it seemed the more antiseptically the girl  Lerkfish   Apr-22-05 08:27 AM   #78 
  - We'd feel we were in an episode of the Twilight Zone  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-22-05 10:27 AM   #129 
  - A Friend Of Mine Once Asked, While Standing In Line, "Anyone Want A Hug"?  cryingshame   Apr-22-05 08:43 AM   #86 
  - You are right--no one was acting "normal" around her...  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-22-05 10:19 AM   #117 
  - keep in mind she had to see she was being filmed  Lerkfish   Apr-22-05 10:38 AM   #133 
     - she actually looks at the camera once or twice  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-22-05 10:48 AM   #138 
  - Exactly the point...  Ysolde   Apr-22-05 01:54 PM   #171 
  - Look out Middle Schoolers YOUR'E next....  Massachusetts   Apr-22-05 08:12 AM   #66 
  - If anything ever called for a riot  naderzenithnow   Apr-22-05 08:22 AM   #74 
  - Outside its Amerikkka...  lateo   Apr-22-05 08:25 AM   #76 
  - What is wrong with these people?  Stockholm   Apr-22-05 08:33 AM   #83 
  - A hug or holding a hand  athenap   Apr-22-05 08:38 AM   #84 
  - Two sides to every story.  LWolf   Apr-22-05 09:14 AM   #93 
  - Get out of the kid's face  rfkrfk   Apr-22-05 09:25 AM   #98 
  - I can't get the videos to play, so help me out w/this question  patsified   Apr-22-05 09:26 AM   #99 
  - hilarious  nascarblue   Apr-22-05 09:39 AM   #104 
  - WTF are you talking about.?The mother is suing the cops.  Sterling   Apr-22-05 07:15 PM   #246 
     - The mother is SUING???  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 01:16 AM   #317 
  - Teacher totally incompetent  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 09:55 AM   #108 
  - I honestly cannot fathom such a disturbing response as this one...  ScreamingWhisper   Apr-22-05 12:04 PM   #154 
  - I gotta agree....  Beel2112   Apr-23-05 12:50 AM   #309 
  - The first video  Demgirl   Apr-24-05 08:57 PM   #525 
  - Probably afraid of getting sued  DS1   Apr-22-05 02:29 PM   #180 
  - She got upset because she didn't want to participate in a MATH lesson -  kath   Apr-22-05 10:02 AM   #110 
  - Yes, math in kindergarten.  redqueen   Apr-22-05 10:24 AM   #125 
  - Strongly agree!  Akoto   Apr-22-05 10:54 AM   #141 
  - I'm 20 too...and I remember math in kindergarten.  Sean Reynolds   Apr-22-05 06:27 PM   #233 
     - I'm 35  redqueen   Apr-25-05 03:18 PM   #541 
  - I agree! There is so much in that video that upsets me,  OurVotesCount-Ohio   Apr-22-05 11:59 AM   #153 
  - Why Math in KDG? No Child Left Behind (state standards)  MollyStark   Apr-23-05 09:27 AM   #363 
  - Sorry - is KNOWLEDGE now a repub thing????  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 05:38 PM   #564 
  - I glad most of you guy's live in pleasentville, usa. but in the real  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 10:15 AM   #115 
  - Do you have children?  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:21 AM   #121 
     - oh, you can handle your kids any way you want too. but handling  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 10:32 AM   #130 
        - That's a little different  Demgirl   Apr-22-05 10:41 AM   #136 
           - It's not the school's problem to deal with disturbed children  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 10:48 AM   #139 
              - oh really? they have no responsibility while the child is in school?  Lerkfish   Apr-22-05 01:21 PM   #166 
              - no the question is why is the child there. teachers are not baby  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 05:24 PM   #211 
              - To educate children who, unless they have a disability,  phylny   Apr-23-05 06:11 AM   #337 
                 - sure, that's the perfect world that none of us live in.  Lerkfish   Apr-23-05 07:33 AM   #347 
                    - In the real world teachers get sued and worse for intervening.  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 04:09 PM   #547 
              - Disturbed children  bloom   Apr-22-05 08:06 PM   #269 
              - She's not disturbed  Demgirl   Apr-24-05 08:41 PM   #519 
                 - No...  Evergreen Emerald   Apr-25-05 06:08 AM   #531 
                 - I worked in public schools,  phylny   Apr-25-05 06:09 AM   #532 
                 - That is not normal. At all.  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 04:08 PM   #546 
  - Florida is really a fucked up place.  Bleachers7   Apr-22-05 10:36 AM   #132 
  - It happens everywhere.  Pacifist Patriot   Apr-22-05 12:16 PM   #156 
  - The poll on that page has been freeped.  genieroze   Apr-22-05 11:35 AM   #151 
  - Thanks genieroze. I hadn't even noticed the poll.  soup   Apr-22-05 12:21 PM   #158 
  - well-than lets DE=freep that poll  rodeodance   Apr-23-05 03:43 PM   #413 
  - Frankly it sounds like the kid needed cuffing.  puddycat   Apr-22-05 12:10 PM   #155 
  - I think it's ridiculous for a principal to follow a 5 yr old and allow  OurVotesCount-Ohio   Apr-22-05 12:40 PM   #161 
  - They can't TOUCH her.  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 12:38 PM   #393 
  - That's ridiculous.  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 02:15 PM   #177 
     - Were the officers who cuffed her black?  TX-RAT   Apr-22-05 02:55 PM   #183 
        - It doesn't matter to  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 03:15 PM   #186 
  - I can't play the tape.  genieroze   Apr-22-05 12:18 PM   #157 
  - nevermind, I used a different browser and it worked.  genieroze   Apr-22-05 12:35 PM   #160 
  - All those police for one little girl?  TK421   Apr-22-05 01:18 PM   #165 
  - The school should have called her parents to come get her, not the police  noonwitch   Apr-22-05 01:57 PM   #173 
  - They did. Her mother refused to come. nt  nonconformist   Apr-22-05 03:33 PM   #191 
     - No her mother said it would take one hour to come.  Sterling   Apr-22-05 07:17 PM   #247 
        - So everyone who wonders where mom was  Debi   Apr-22-05 07:24 PM   #250 
        - Another mistake from the video  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 08:01 AM   #351 
  - DA calling for death penalty?  ElsewheresDaughter   Apr-22-05 02:48 PM   #182 
  - Disgusting  Solly Mack   Apr-22-05 03:19 PM   #190 
  - Yes, I saw a number of things that just exacerbated the child's behavior  PA Democrat   Apr-22-05 04:01 PM   #194 
     - Our local news just covered it and only the lawyer for the child  OurVotesCount-Ohio   Apr-22-05 04:20 PM   #198 
     - They were more concerned about getting "proof" than properly seeing  Solly Mack   Apr-22-05 04:41 PM   #203 
     - You're right, of course. The child's privacy was violated.  Solly Mack   Apr-22-05 04:40 PM   #201 
        - There was no expectation of PRIVACY in a PUBLIC school  MADem   Apr-22-05 05:51 PM   #222 
           - it was violated when the tape was made public  Solly Mack   Apr-22-05 05:57 PM   #224 
           - Apparently the KID's lawyer got the tape from the cops and  MADem   Apr-22-05 06:03 PM   #225 
              - I don't care who released the tape to the public. It was wrong.  Solly Mack   Apr-22-05 06:07 PM   #226 
                 - Well, blame the lawyer that MOM hired, then, not the school  MADem   Apr-22-05 06:23 PM   #231 
                    - I read the article. Don't make assumptions otherwise  Solly Mack   Apr-22-05 06:29 PM   #234 
                    - Yeah, you do the same! n/t  MADem   Apr-22-05 06:38 PM   #238 
                    - As a former teacher  Debi   Apr-22-05 07:05 PM   #244 
                       - If you can't keep a 5 year old girl from wrecking your class  Sterling   Apr-22-05 07:24 PM   #251 
                       - So this is the teacher and the AP's fault  Debi   Apr-22-05 07:28 PM   #254 
                       - Bull...  MollyStark   Apr-23-05 08:49 AM   #357 
                       - If your child acts like this you suck as a parent. And I expect  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 05:01 PM   #554 
                       - what would you have done especially if you couldn't touch the child  barb162   Apr-26-05 12:07 PM   #604 
                       - I was almost stabbed by a student with a pair of scissors (real ones)  Solly Mack   Apr-22-05 08:38 PM   #276 
                          - if all teachers thought like you do...  jbm   Apr-22-05 09:28 PM   #285 
                          - Excellent analysis Solly!  PA Democrat   Apr-22-05 11:29 PM   #300 
                          - Ding! Ding! another winner  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 08:07 AM   #352 
                          - Thank you for bringing a little sanity to this thread  Ms. Toad   Apr-25-05 06:23 PM   #566 
                          - I think a therapeutic hold would have been best in this  barb162   Apr-26-05 12:20 PM   #605 
                    - So, mom didn't have time to come get the distuptive physically abusive  Debi   Apr-22-05 07:01 PM   #243 
                    - You can get a lawyer after work. SOme pople work jobs.  Sterling   Apr-22-05 07:22 PM   #249 
                       - Again  Debi   Apr-22-05 07:25 PM   #252 
                          - There is even MORE to the story!  MADem   Apr-22-05 08:49 PM   #279 
                             - Mom called the cops on a 3 year old???  soup   Apr-23-05 05:50 AM   #332 
                                - I heard it on Keith Olbermann's show, last night  MADem   Apr-23-05 07:00 AM   #341 
                                   - ah. Thank you for the recap - and well done.  soup   Apr-23-05 09:40 AM   #365 
                    - "feels free to whale on teachers like a boxing pro" Wow you have 0  Sterling   Apr-22-05 07:20 PM   #248 
                    - Look at the video  MADem   Apr-22-05 08:52 PM   #280 
                    - Yes this kid  Tomee450   Apr-22-05 10:04 PM   #292 
           - No the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA)  PA Democrat   Apr-23-05 08:50 AM   #358 
  - WTF?  Debi   Apr-22-05 05:48 PM   #221 
  - just watch the entire video and this is truly disgusting!!! these teachers  ElsewheresDaughter   Apr-22-05 06:18 PM   #228 
  - I watched it, and I side with the teachers and the PA  MADem   Apr-22-05 06:27 PM   #232 
  - I watched the video and really feel sorry for today's teachers  sikmik   Apr-22-05 08:36 PM   #275 
  - Welcome to DU sikmik!  Vektor   Apr-23-05 04:13 AM   #325 
  - Institutional Education  chlamor   Apr-22-05 10:01 PM   #290 
  - They certainly did.  shayes51   Apr-23-05 10:19 AM   #371 
  - oh please. get real.  okieinpain   Apr-22-05 06:37 PM   #237 
  - Yes all the adults involved were fools.  Sterling   Apr-22-05 07:27 PM   #253 
  - Why? would your parents have left work to come get you? n/t  Debi   Apr-22-05 07:30 PM   #257 
  - They have to be concerned with covering their asses.  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 04:15 PM   #550 
  - What, exactly, would you have done differently?  Xithras   Apr-26-05 01:19 PM   #610 
  - Imagine the outrage  brettdale   Apr-22-05 06:22 PM   #230 
  - More and more incidents like this. We should all be concerned.  HypnoToad   Apr-22-05 08:26 PM   #273 
  - If the mainstream got hold of this  brettdale   Apr-22-05 08:38 PM   #277 
  - It already has--Olbermann had it on tonight n/t  MADem   Apr-22-05 08:55 PM   #281 
  - What a god-awful teacher this kid must have had  Nevernose   Apr-22-05 09:22 PM   #283 
  - That's right. Blame the teacher. Soon nobody  shayes51   Apr-23-05 09:20 AM   #362 
  - Before the police showed up, she needed cuffing.  BullGooseLoony   Apr-22-05 09:46 PM   #288 
  - What she needed was a spanking. No five year old needs to be  cat_girl25   Apr-23-05 12:07 AM   #303 
     - Only one cop was there to do the deed, the 2 others were "trainees"  MADem   Apr-23-05 01:02 PM   #397 
        - I don't mean cops coming at her like they would an armed bandit  cat_girl25   Apr-23-05 08:24 PM   #443 
           - That was her third encounter (minimum) with the law  MADem   Apr-23-05 11:09 PM   #468 
  - Anyone take the poll?  eauclaireliberal   Apr-22-05 10:54 PM   #295 
  - I agree--it is symptom of where America is going (2/3 say OK)--beyond  rodeodance   Apr-23-05 03:33 PM   #410 
  - they shouldnt of cuffed her  brettdale   Apr-23-05 12:40 AM   #308 
  - What would all of you do to a child so out of control?  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 12:55 AM   #310 
  - That is NOT A NORMAL TANTRUM.  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 01:03 AM   #312 
  - Well said.  shayes51   Apr-23-05 05:40 AM   #331 
  - Exactly!  DawgHouse   Apr-23-05 07:14 AM   #344 
  - Well, speaking from personal experience  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 07:45 AM   #349 
  - A friend of mine is a psychiatrist who worked with kids like this  barb162   Apr-23-05 11:04 PM   #466 
  - Doesn't this school have counselors?  Carolab   Apr-23-05 01:09 AM   #314 
  - Most elementary schools don't have counselors  Xithras   Apr-26-05 01:21 PM   #611 
  - Just saw it on my local news. So horrified. I hope her mother sues  BlueIris   Apr-23-05 01:22 AM   #318 
  - Why? Even the mother has called police on her in the past!  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 12:26 PM   #389 
  - I'm afraid for this child -  Vektor   Apr-23-05 04:39 AM   #326 
  - I cannot believe the cr@p I have read on this thread.  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 05:17 AM   #328 
  - Sorry.. I worked with mental health pros and kids like this..  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 12:42 PM   #394 
  - I live with a very large person who used to decompensate  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 01:25 PM   #399 
  - thanks-well said  rodeodance   Apr-23-05 03:41 PM   #412 
  - If she acts this way at school,  shayes51   Apr-23-05 05:34 AM   #330 
  - Where did you get your doctorate in child psychology?  PA Democrat   Apr-23-05 08:25 AM   #353 
     - A few thoughts and facts  shayes51   Apr-23-05 09:08 AM   #361 
     - I would LOVE to see research that supports  PA Democrat   Apr-23-05 09:42 AM   #366 
     - Obviously, the two of us  shayes51   Apr-23-05 09:50 AM   #369 
        - It's not about a personal reaction to a video  PA Democrat   Apr-23-05 10:54 AM   #374 
     - You are right  MollyStark   Apr-23-05 09:47 AM   #367 
     - Thanks.  shayes51   Apr-23-05 09:53 AM   #370 
     - Who is advocating for "allowing" antisocial behavior?  PA Democrat   Apr-23-05 11:23 AM   #377 
     - I could not agree more. That was a disturbed child, and she was a  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 04:19 PM   #551 
     - Well said. We shouldn't rush to judge the parents..  FourStarDemocrat   Apr-24-05 08:05 AM   #492 
  - Worst  wordslikelead   Apr-23-05 06:01 AM   #336 
  - After watching the video I still feel the same way.  wordslikelead   Apr-23-05 06:13 AM   #338 
     - hear, hear! n/t  American liberal   Apr-23-05 08:38 AM   #354 
  - There's an "up" side to everything.  Vinca   Apr-23-05 06:45 AM   #340 
  - Here's even MORE on the story  MADem   Apr-23-05 07:25 AM   #346 
  - I saw a drill sergeant there  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 11:48 AM   #385 
  - This part is so ridiculous:  patsified   Apr-23-05 11:52 AM   #386 
  - Thank you. EVERYONE here should read that.  progressivebydesign   Apr-23-05 12:29 PM   #390 
  - Everybody SHOULD read this article because it's a shining  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 06:36 PM   #425 
  - This girl's parents are the problem, in large quantity. But--  tjdee   Apr-23-05 07:44 AM   #348 
  - Mistake #1  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 07:58 AM   #350 
  - It WASN'T the first time, even the kid's MOTHER called the cops  MADem   Apr-23-05 10:39 AM   #373 
  - Sorry, I can't buy your argument  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 11:41 AM   #383 
     - Well, it was S. Pinellas Park, not ST. Pete  MADem   Apr-23-05 12:51 PM   #396 
        - Sorry, I still don't buy your argument!  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 01:38 PM   #401 
           - What would you do, though?  MADem   Apr-23-05 03:30 PM   #409 
              - They have a SOCIAL WORK department...where were they?  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 04:55 PM   #419 
                 - assigned part or full time to offer services  MADem   Apr-23-05 07:15 PM   #430 
  - On the first video, someone made a statement similar to  phylny   Apr-23-05 12:50 PM   #395 
  - Okay. Now That' I've Finally Seen the Videos ...  Crisco   Apr-23-05 11:06 AM   #375 
  - i agree and when they came to arrest her she was sitting quietly in the  chimpsrsmarter   Apr-23-05 11:31 AM   #379 
  - What do you propose the teachers do? They are  lizzy   Apr-23-05 04:03 PM   #416 
  - See post 421.  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 05:07 PM   #422 
  - They Are Allowed  Crisco   Apr-23-05 05:35 PM   #423 
     - Not entirely true, the town made the decision not to allow  MADem   Apr-23-05 07:21 PM   #431 
  - I agree with your assessment  FourStarDemocrat   Apr-23-05 09:43 PM   #449 
  - This is appalling, absolutely appalling  Spazito   Apr-23-05 11:40 AM   #382 
  - I'm a 20 year teacher with a master's in administration: All of the adults  jazzjunkysue   Apr-23-05 01:35 PM   #400 
  - Shoulda, coulda, woulda  MADem   Apr-23-05 03:53 PM   #414 
  - I certainly would NOT have called the cops  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 05:05 PM   #420 
  - No, you project a fantasy--the kid was not about to leave the classroom  MADem   Apr-23-05 06:41 PM   #426 
     - It is no &#$^@!# fantasy, which world do you live in?  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 09:57 PM   #452 
        - Calm down  MADem   Apr-23-05 10:08 PM   #454 
           - There you go assuming again!!!  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 10:35 PM   #458 
              - I'm not attacking you  MADem   Apr-23-05 10:50 PM   #462 
                 - Maybe you should read what you wrote....  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 11:02 PM   #465 
                    - Obviously, your mileage varies  MADem   Apr-23-05 11:07 PM   #467 
                       - We will have to agree to disagree.  fortyfeetunder   Apr-23-05 11:27 PM   #469 
                          - That works for me! n/t  MADem   Apr-23-05 11:50 PM   #472 
  - You can spin the horrible actions  Tomee450   Apr-23-05 05:06 PM   #421 
  - Do they rank schools like they count votes?  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 07:08 PM   #429 
     - Well, I think the school executed their plan  MADem   Apr-23-05 07:25 PM   #432 
        - Sorry, that makes no sense.  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 07:31 PM   #434 
           - OK, now I KNOW you are just skimming and not reading  MADem   Apr-23-05 08:07 PM   #440 
              - Sorry, wrong again.  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 08:36 PM   #444 
                 - Uh, I'm not sure where you are going  MADem   Apr-23-05 09:08 PM   #445 
                    - You said:  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 09:26 PM   #448 
                       - Well, we are probably, if not on the same page, at least in the same book  MADem   Apr-23-05 09:54 PM   #451 
                          - Glad we could find a point of agreement.  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 10:46 PM   #461 
  - Exactly. n/t  sfexpat2000   Apr-23-05 06:24 PM   #424 
  - Excellent post, I agree with you. This incident played out according to  FourStarDemocrat   Apr-23-05 09:53 PM   #450 
     - Thanks. That moment was not the moment to repair the girl, just keep her  jazzjunkysue   Apr-24-05 07:28 AM   #488 
  - Anyone that watched THAT video and believes THAT child needs to be  bush_is_wacko   Apr-23-05 07:26 PM   #433 
  - a disturbed kid tried to poison my dog tonight  medeak   Apr-23-05 09:14 PM   #446 
  - So what do you think should happen to this child?  Erika   Apr-24-05 12:08 AM   #477 
     - of course I wish he would get help  medeak   Apr-24-05 12:24 AM   #478 
        - How can he be in Head Start,  phylny   Apr-24-05 05:13 AM   #487 
           - we are 300 miles from a town - extremely isolated  medeak   Apr-24-05 11:41 AM   #496 
              - So, if I'm understanding this, he's not enrolled in "Head Start,"  phylny   Apr-24-05 02:22 PM   #503 
                 - I wish I could answer your questions  medeak   Apr-24-05 03:02 PM   #506 
                    - OK, he's not in the Head Start program, then, but another  phylny   Apr-24-05 07:11 PM   #513 
                       - beats me? I don't know of any other program there.  medeak   Apr-24-05 08:10 PM   #516 
  - This action is something that no progressive should support  Sandpiper   Apr-23-05 09:25 PM   #447 
  - Totally irony. Jeb's at the Vatican while his policies handcuff  Erika   Apr-23-05 11:58 PM   #475 
  - That's stupid. The teachers were forbidden from touching the child  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 05:23 PM   #558 
     - It's embarrassing when so-called progressives are police state enablers  Sandpiper   Apr-25-05 08:04 PM   #571 
        - So teachers - and even the child's own mother - are the "police state"?  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 08:09 PM   #573 
           - Advocating the handcuffing of 5 year olds by law enforcement  Sandpiper   Apr-25-05 08:12 PM   #574 
              - I didn't say it was normal. But the police have limited options, as  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 08:14 PM   #576 
  - My take.  newportdadde   Apr-23-05 10:42 PM   #460 
  - The child could have been restrained by a firm hug  Erika   Apr-23-05 11:55 PM   #474 
  - Hello did you read the whole thread or even my thread?  newportdadde   Apr-24-05 12:46 PM   #497 
  - Those "firm hugs" aren't much better than a strait jacket  eowyn_of_rohan   Apr-24-05 04:29 PM   #510 
  - The mother specifically told school officials not to touch her daughter  Freddie Stubbs   Apr-26-05 01:33 PM   #613 
  - The cameras were on  Erika   Apr-24-05 12:03 AM   #476 
  - The child should have been hugged with a warm blanket  Erika   Apr-23-05 11:51 PM   #473 
  - The person trying to "hug her with a warm blanket"...  jmc777   Apr-24-05 08:10 PM   #515 
  - A straight-jacket would have been more appropriate  Freddie Stubbs   Apr-24-05 01:20 AM   #484 
  - One thing: I'm wondering if anyone caught this...  Montauk6   Apr-24-05 01:21 AM   #485 
  - I did; wonder what this child has done previously that police were  barb162   Apr-26-05 10:59 AM   #593 
  - I wouldn't dare judge  renate   Apr-24-05 03:38 AM   #486 
  - Right. This is a case for professionals, and the school needed help.  jazzjunkysue   Apr-24-05 07:33 AM   #489 
  - I watched the video  iwillalwayswonderwhy   Apr-24-05 07:55 AM   #490 
  - 500 fricking posts on this .......  doublethink   Apr-24-05 01:36 PM   #499 
  - Zip ties seem okay to me.  TexasSissy   Apr-24-05 02:51 PM   #505 
  - Oh please  Tomee450   Apr-24-05 08:57 PM   #526 
     - My friend taught kindergarten, and she was  shayes51   Apr-25-05 05:32 AM   #529 
     - I was also mainly concerned with the harm that could be done to the other  TexasSissy   Apr-25-05 01:21 PM   #536 
     - Race has nothing to do with it. That was no normal tantrum. Did  TexasSissy   Apr-25-05 01:19 PM   #535 
        - Baloney  Tomee450   Apr-25-05 04:40 PM   #552 
        - Bull. Parents can do things teachers CAN'T do. And apparently the  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 04:54 PM   #553 
        - The country is racist to the core  confludemocrat   Apr-25-05 05:23 PM   #557 
        - Exactly  Tomee450   Apr-25-05 08:05 PM   #572 
        - I think you're right. To me, when a five year old is trying to hit  barb162   Apr-26-05 11:07 AM   #594 
  - The little girl needed spanked  Ksec   Apr-24-05 08:56 PM   #524 
  - The police can not legally hit children. The plastic ties were  TexasSissy   Apr-25-05 01:23 PM   #537 
  - i don't blame the school officials for calling the cops  JI7   Apr-24-05 09:43 PM   #527 
  - I don't have strong feelings..  sendero   Apr-25-05 07:26 AM   #533 
  - 4th grade teacher in rage throws desk out of 2nd floor window in my daught  ElsewheresDaughter   Apr-25-05 08:06 AM   #534 
  - There is MORE to the story, per MSNBC  MADem   Apr-25-05 03:42 PM   #543 
  - Ha! I'm not surprised.  mondo joe   Apr-25-05 04:11 PM   #548 
  - I saw the school superintendent on the Today show and he said the teacher  chimpsrsmarter   Apr-25-05 04:11 PM   #549 
  - from the op's link ...the teacher was giving latitude to the child  barb162   Apr-26-05 12:29 PM   #606 
  - Oh please  Tomee450   Apr-25-05 08:40 PM   #578 
     - So a five year old could come to your place of business  Debi   Apr-26-05 03:09 PM   #615 
        - ABSOLUTELY NOT!  Tomee450   Apr-26-05 04:53 PM   #623 
           - Mom wasn't there and would not come pick up her unruly child  Debi   Apr-26-05 06:19 PM   #625 
  - I don't get what's the big deal about this!  Megahurtz   Apr-25-05 05:05 PM   #555 
  - I do, and Keith Olbermann seems to agree with your assessment  MADem   Apr-25-05 07:48 PM   #569 
  - You have to wonder what kind of parenting she has been doing  Freddie Stubbs   Apr-26-05 11:50 AM   #602 
  - So she was out of control  Tomee450   Apr-25-05 08:15 PM   #577 
     - You know, that is an issue for the POLICE, not the TEACHER or the AP  MADem   Apr-25-05 09:33 PM   #580 
     - Who cares if the school  Tomee450   Apr-26-05 01:48 AM   #584 
     - Do you think that woman is a 'good' mother?  MADem   Apr-26-05 02:05 AM   #585 
        - Of course there is  Tomee450   Apr-26-05 02:29 AM   #587 
           - What would you have done in that AP's shoes?  MADem   Apr-26-05 02:38 AM   #588 
     - Just because the  Tomee450   Apr-26-05 02:12 AM   #586 
        - Do you seriously think a black principal would countenance  MADem   Apr-26-05 03:31 AM   #589 
        - Clarence Thomas is black and  Tomee450   Apr-26-05 04:34 PM   #621 
           - Well, if you want to think that, that is up to you  MADem   Apr-26-05 04:43 PM   #622 
        - Being unruly is one thing and not uncommon. Having the cops  barb162   Apr-26-05 11:30 AM   #596 
        - You rarely hear of ANY kid receiving "such treatment". If there were  mondo joe   Apr-26-05 11:31 AM   #597 
     - Okay then. So what would  Megahurtz   Apr-26-05 03:02 PM   #614 
  - What was that girl's problem?  Placebo   Apr-25-05 07:37 PM   #568 
  - Well having had a 5 year old....  fortyfeetunder   Apr-26-05 01:05 AM   #583 
  - No one answer to your question, but  shayes51   Apr-26-05 06:31 AM   #590 
     - I have seen that. I know 2 kids like that whose parents basically in  barb162   Apr-26-05 11:57 AM   #603 
  - I'm going to go ahead and step out on a limb here  Caretha   Apr-26-05 10:18 AM   #591 
  - I agree in one small way - I think the school was looking to document  mondo joe   Apr-26-05 11:34 AM   #598 
  - what would you have done if you were instructed by the parent not to  barb162   Apr-26-05 11:37 AM   #599 
     - Remove the child from the classroom  Caretha   Apr-26-05 12:34 PM   #607 
        - Delay got off the front page of the newspapers? n/t  Debi   Apr-26-05 03:11 PM   #616 
        - Yeah...there's that :)  Caretha   Apr-26-05 06:41 PM   #627 
        - Here's from the original poster's link  barb162   Apr-26-05 03:14 PM   #617 
  - in our schools they call the PARENTS!  BareNakedLiberal   Apr-26-05 11:26 AM   #595 
  - They did call Mom, but she was at work and couldn't make it there  OurVotesCount-Ohio   Apr-26-05 11:38 AM   #600 
  - They DID call the parent who advised she couldn't come until  barb162   Apr-26-05 11:39 AM   #601 
  - My wifes school has a "rubber room" for kids like this  Xithras   Apr-26-05 01:16 PM   #609 
  - There you go! A RUBBER ROOM!  Megahurtz   Apr-26-05 03:16 PM   #618 
  - Good for you.  barb162   Apr-26-05 03:33 PM   #619 
  - I thought I was living in an alternate universe there, for a bit  MADem   Apr-26-05 04:19 PM   #620 
  - Oh, so you live in a perfect world?  Tomee450   Apr-26-05 05:21 PM   #624 
  - No, they aren't trained for that  Xithras   Apr-26-05 06:38 PM   #626 
  - educators have to deal with the whole child  bpilgrim   Apr-26-05 06:46 PM   #628 
     - lets see  Senator Lamb   Apr-26-05 07:11 PM   #629 
  - locking  Moderator   Apr-26-05 08:22 PM   #630 
 
rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Now if the little girl was white, Bill O'Reilly would be outraged. n/t
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SweetLeftFoot Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Just what I was thinking
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
184. excellent post (n/t)
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
260. Watch the video - you will change you rmind
When I read the story I thought it was the wrong move. But if you watch the video of the girl, you see something like this was in order. It was not out of line. The school administrators handled themselves very well.

She tore about the principals office and was taking swings at the teacher of whoever it was in the video. The little girl was totally insider herself and she needed something to get her attention.

You really have to watch the video and you will see it differently.
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hector459 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #260
305. The last time your kid had a tantrum, did you call the police?
If it had been your child, would you feel differently?
Remember, we never saw what might have started the child to behave the way she did. something happened to her either during this episode of sometime other time to make her feel the need to lash out.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #305
322. Nope
And the police should not have been called in this situation. After viewing the video, though, you can sure see why someone would consider it. Some of the other people posting have had a much better approach to dealing with this child.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #260
327. If I can calm down a 300lb person during a psychotic episode
as a civilian, these **trained professionals** should have a strategy for dealing with an out of control 5 YEAR OLD.

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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #327
438. Yes, I've come to that conclusion after diving into this thread. nt
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holboz Donating Member (641 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #327
470. Terrible, but school officials may not be allowed to "restrain" kids...
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 11:32 PM by holboz
I don't condone the handcuffing of this five year old or any other child, but let me share an episode I witnessed when I worked at an elementary school a couple of years ago.

I was in a "learning bridge" classroom (i.e., one for kids with behavior problems) when a 10 year old kid flipped out in much the same way. It wasn't the first time this kid had a fit but this was the worst...he turned over bookshelves, threw chairs, smashed the globe, pulled down maps, grabbed the computer and shoved it off the table. If it wasn't bolted down this kid threw it. The other kids in the classroom were quickly shuffled out, but the teachers couldn't do anything. Why? Because the kid's parents threatened the school district with legal action if anyone dared to physically restrain him. What was worse is that the kid knew adults weren't allowed to touch him. He would scream to us, "You can't f**king touch me, my Daddy told me so!" It's amazing this kid didn't hurt himself or anyone else during his tirade. It was a gut wrenching episode to watch, especially since we couldn't do anything out of fear of legal action.

In the end, the teachers had to call the local police department's resource officer (an officer who works at the schools). I don't think they handcuffed him but I know they sat him in the back of the police car until he pulled himself together.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #470
562. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #260
405. handcuffs are NOT needed-I watched!!
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #405
439. I've come to that conclusion after readin this thread. No cuffs needed. nt
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youngdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #260
493. I have watched the video..
I think that what happened is horribly wrong! Why didn't the school notify a parent? And really how much damage can a five year old inflict with her fists? If she had a weapon, yes I can see law enforcement being called, but hell it was a temper tantrum.

I have to wonder about the video tape thing, was she the class
"experiment" for the day? A tape to be showed to other " naughty" little children that are misbehaving? Sad, sad, sad.
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #493
530. Sigh.
1) Parent was notified, couldn't come for over an hour.

2) The child's fists were not the main issue. The main issue was her out-of-control meltdown/tantrum.

3) Videotape was not to be shown to other kids, but most likely to help the teacher and others deal with this recurrent behavior.
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SunDrop23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
289. Nail on head.
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
297. I agree
There has been a concerted effort by the media to dehumanize african americans - this just fits into that picture (intentional or not, it doesn't matter, its happening).
This is the politics of racism, folks, plain and simple.
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Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
482. At least!
O'Reilly, Hannity, Liddy, ALEX JONES, EVERYONE ON SHORTWAVE!!!
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. Florida, right?
I thought so.

--p!
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:08 AM
Original message
Being a librul in Texas is tough....
but it must be double tough in Fla. We have behaviour problems like this in our school at least once a week (or more) and I have yet to see the police called (they have more important things to do). A trip to the principal's office and if it continues, a parental pick up is all it takes.....poor judgement on the educator's part. Kinders and wee ones have tantrums when they are tired, hungry, or stressed. It is up to the adults to teach kids how to deal with anger and dissapointment. What lesson did they teach this child? What lesson did they teach the other children? And more importantly, what does this say about us. :-(
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
304. Well said Anne
You hate to think that a school is unable to control a 5 year old, even one swinging a baton or whatever, and being a terror.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
388. she was in the principals office. and in my opinion it's not the
teachers job to raise your child. they are there to teach, not instill moral values.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #388
406. they put cuffs on her to take her TO the principles office. She was in
the classroom when they were applied.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #406
441. WRONG. They were applied in the AP office. See the tape. nt
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #406
456. no she was not. look at the tape please. unless that is one
hell of a public school, that was the principals office.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
95. They're really giving Texas a run for their money...
Jeeze!
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
119. It's amazing. You can always guess Florida or Texas
and you will be right 75% of the time.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #119
196. We dont handcuff our kids in Texas...
we just beat them around a bit...
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #196
329. Not in our district
we are a target for lawsuits. Start hitting a kid and you just as well paint a bulls eye on your back. Personally, I think it is best to let the parents handle it. Having seen the parents of some of these kids----I think it is Karma (or sweet justice). It is all a matter of putting the mail in the right box.
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confludemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
563. Aren'cha sick of Florida and Texas bringing us shit like this?
Can't we have a referendum to authorize them to succeed from the Union?
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. Who the hell would find this OK?
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
69. Not this parent-of-a-five-year-old
I guess Dobson would be a-ok with it, though.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #69
116. would your five year old have a tantrum like that.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #116
144. Not unless it was you barking orders
in which case I'd give her the ok to go nookyoular on yo' ass.

kidding. My kid knows limits, behaves herself in the classroom, yadda yadda. Obviously the kid in question needs help and is a disciplinary horror, but that doesn't justify having a cop handcuff her.

There are days when my country shames me. reading a story like this, well, it's one of those days.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. really so you would do what with this kid. please do tell.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #145
152. If I were a teacher
I could answer that.

I'm not, so I won't. I wouldn't pretend to know the best way to handle a child throwing a fit in a classroom situation.

Best I can do is guess.

Since you keep picking at this, why don't you tell us why yo uthink those cops did such a bang-up job in cuffing the 5-year old?
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #152
262. I don't know what else you could do with that kid
If someone has a suggestion, it would be really helpful to the discussion. The cuffs got her attention. I was thinking if I was the teacher I would have tied her shoe laces together. Dang, that kid would not let up.
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Lauri Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #262
442. That is not what I saw in that video - you should watch it again
She had ended her tantrum and was seated before the cops handcuffed her. In fact, the cop is telling her that she needs to calm down and she had already calmed down when he is saying that to her. She only starts to freak out again when they attempt to handcuff her.

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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #145
175. I can tell you what NOT to do
You don't call the cops over a five year old having a tantrum. And the cops shouldn't have gotten involved in this anyway. I know they have to go to the scene but they didn't have to "arrest" a small child. This was brutal, and no matter what her behavior was, she is still five, and this must have been very scary for her. Everyone involved handled this very badly.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #175
199. And she'll probably
grow up hating and fearing the Police. Swift move, Exlax Patrol.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #175
214. that shit was beyond having a tantrum. she knew exactly what
she was doing. she would run all over most of you guy's and I suspect that most of you would end up calling the police.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #214
263. I don't know what I would do but you are probably right
That kid was definately out of control. Something was needed to get her attention. And if you watch the video, she only came back to her senses - acting like a normal kid again - once she had the cuffs on.

It is a very tough situation to handle, that is for sure. And it is not enough to simply say what they did was wrong. Whoever disagrees with calling the cops and cuffing her has to offer of a solution - it will be very helpful to the discussion.
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #263
307. Hey, how about putting her in a room till she quieted.
Oh wait this was a black little girl.

A 4 year old white kid nearly hits a police officer with a car and it's a funny joke.

A black kid in LA does the same thing the same week and they had to bury him.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #307
321. The video was not in black and white
Keep the race card in your pocket for when the situation calls for it. This is not one of them.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #214
284. It's easy for some people to call a tantrum
by a black kid shit. However, when others who are not black do the same same it's a different story. You think non black children don't have tantrums in school? Well, they do. I have friends who are teachers and they have seen children behaving badly many, many times. The police weren't called and some of the perpetrators were older than that child. When a black person is involved, we can always count on some on this board to come out in support of the violence against the black person. It does not seem to matter that the person is a five year old child. Absolutely sickening.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #284
293. On the flip side:
My caucasian stepdaughter in a caucasian household threw a bitchfit about going to school every morning in California. We had to physically lift her out of bed and force her towards the shower just to get her moving. This eventually got child services involved and my wife and I were informed of the limitations placed upon us by law. We were finally forced to call police officers to take my stepdaughter to school. If she didn't go, we were negligent by letting her miss school. If we physically forced her to move, we were abusive by state law. It was a no-win situation.

After that nightmare, I'm of the opinion the child can insist upon emancipation or just follow the damned rules. If the child won't follow the rules, by all means, call the police.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #293
411. You are talking about rules
when the child is five years old? Unbelievable. YOU expect a five year old to have the maturity of a teenager or an adult? Oh wait, I always hear these kind of excuses when the child is black. Your post is simply sickening. Civilized people do not treat young children like they are adults. What's next? I suppose the next thing you will think acceptable is a blow across the head if the five year old does not behave, that is if she is black.
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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #411
495. Excuse me?
I spoke about my OWN children who are CAUCASIAN, so please do NOT have the nerve to accuse me of racism. How fucking dare you.

I expect children to have manners, or a semblance of manners. I teach my kids to be polite. Maybe you do your own thing. Do you even have kids?!

I don't give a flying shit if the kid is white, black, yellow, red, dusky or anything that raises a question.

I am born of a mix of Brits and full-blood Native Americans, so please do NOT have the audacity to insinuate that I am making racist propositions.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #495
498. You have a right
to your opinion and I, to mine. In this case I believe that many of the supporters of the mistreatment of a black child would feel far different if she was of a different color. Your heritage means nothing. There are Brits, Native Americans and other ethnicities who hold very negative views of black people.

And as far as children's behavior is concerned, I happen to believe that little children will sometimes behave badly but that misbehavior never justifies them being treated like adults. You can offer all the excuses in the world but sensible persons, civilized people, will never be accepting of the handcuffing of a crying frightened little girl. As I said earlier we handcuff out of control violent criminals, not five year olds.
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Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #498
539. Hmmm... I agree with you...
On the last part. This little kid not matter how much of a brat she was being should not have been handcuffed. I however do I see how you are making this race issue. It simply is not. We can not assume that every time some negative happens to a black person, that it was caused from some underlying racism. To do so is simply ignorant and does nothing more than further divide people.
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Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #495
538. Some people turn everything into an race issue...
My first instinct is that this person is trying to rile you up, but then again you never know these days. I don't think this thing has anything to do with race at all. It has to do with a poorly behaving child and police who in my opinion need to go back to training.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #538
542. Of course you don't think
it's a race issue, such horrible acts only happen to black people and to some that is acceptable. If that kid had not been black, she would not have been treated in that harsh manner. If a white kid had received such treatment you and all who support the handcuffing of a young black toddler would be outraged and calling for the heads of all those involved in treating her that way. Unfortunately, some people will always excuse unjust treatment of a black person. It's always the black person who is at fault and now they are even taking such an extreme position to the mistreatment of a five year old child. She is a five year old child and yet you seem to think she has the thinking capacity of an adult. That's ridiculous.

Africans Anericans are constantly on the receiving end of racists act. Don't try to tell me that I don't know racism when I see it. This case was an awful example of that evil.
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Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #542
565. You're right....
I wanted the little black kid to be handcuffed and placed in jail for simply because she is black. Why do I want this? Well because I am white and she is black. Of course.... All whites like me are racist right? Yeahh go white people... down with blacks... pthh whatever... You're the only one who seems to be racist.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #293
453. That's the problem, I think.
The schools are so limited in what they can do to manage a child these days. No matter what they do, they are subject to a lawsuit. That's why they end up calling in the cops.

It's an absurd situation, and handcuffing was beyond the pale, although as I explain in an earlier post, a 9-year-old was handcuffed here in Lawrence because he was so out of control he broke the principal's writst and the cops couldn't get him safely out of the room without applying enough force that it would risk hurting him. Naturally they didn't want to do that, so they cuffed him to make it possible to move him safely.

But a large, violent 9-year-old who has already significantly harmed an adult is not the same as a tiny, 40-pound 5-year-old. That child could have been removed without the cuffs.

I do think the AP could have handled the child better, but she was actually following approved procedures. The procedures aren't effective, but if she had departed from them, no doubt she would have been in trouble with someone.

Basically, the schools are forced into a corner where the best they can do is follow procedure to the letter, so that when the lawsuits come (as they inevitably do, no matter what the teacher or administrators do), they can at least use the defense that they were following approved procedures.

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frustrated_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #453
494. Yes.
Perhaps we need to re-examine procedure (I think we do), but the options you have on hand are the options you have.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #214
296. Yeah because 5 year olds are so cognizant of the repercussions of their
temper tantrums. Are you fucking daft?
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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #296
359. Maybe Both Sides Have A Point
Were the handcuffs excessive?

At 5 maybe she wasn't aware of the consequences of her actions; maybe she didn't know what she doing so she didn't "deserve" to be treated in such a way.

However, if she was not cognizant of the repercussions, don't you think it would make reasoning with her to calm down a little difficult (to say the least)? How do you subdue a person incapable of reason without resorting to a physical method?

I am not justifying or condemning the actions of the school or law enforcement. Maybe we could blame the girl's parent(s) for not better instilling discipline all along, although we don't know the whole story there, either. This is more indicative of a problem with society.

BTW - St. Pete is not the conservative part of Florida, it is a moderate/swing part.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #296
387. you're right, they have no idea of repercussions of their actions.
but they damn sure do know who to mess with, and who not to. I would really love to see some of you folks who are screaming bloody murder, and calling the teachers stupid put in the same situation.

I just get the feeling that those who are objecting would be unable to deal with a situation like this.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #387
428. I have a very precocious seven year old and have dealt with tantrums
similar to this kids. I don't think there is anything wrong with a reasonable spanking as an option. I DO however think that there is something wrong with the police ZIP TYING A 5 year olds hands behind their back. What's next? If she had struggled a little harder would they have tasered her?
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #428
457. that's just it. you can't spank somebody elses kid. you will get
sued. all you can do is what the teacher was doing, that's it.
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BrendaStarr Donating Member (491 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #214
306. Beyond having a tantrum and knew what she was doing?
Anyone with any training in child psychology knows that is not so.

Children in tantrums do not know what they are doing.

I suppose you believe in smacking kids till they are too scared to do anything but kiss Nazi butt.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #214
464. Oh, yeah, I call the cops all the time when a 5-year-old goes nuts
What else can you do? They're the new threat to America, doncha know?

I have dealt with 5-year-olds throwing tantrums without calling the police (though I may have needed aspirin). Thousands of them do so every day, and this is the first time in history I've ever heard about the police being called in such a case. Is this now standard procedure?

It's like a dark comedy already, Dark Ages that is, but I suppose the real shock is that we have people here thinking it makes sense that the police were called and the child was cuffed. Whew!
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #175
278. I agree. This is just bizarre.
As a grandmother of a four year old who was hospitalized several times as a baby due to bouts with serious illness and still has some problems with trust...was there a call to the family? My grandson is an angelic looking blue eyed blonde kid, but he can totally lose it in a stressful situation. Can you imagine what this poor little one was going through?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #175
398. That would be the solution... 1) call the cops
2) warn the child that parent(s) will be called
3) call the parent(s)
4) if parent(s) refuse to pick up the child have police retrieve the parent

Might need to refine the above procedure
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #145
195. Are you saying this was appropriate?
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #195
206. yes, probably in everybodys best interest.
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #206
245. Well, this is the way I see it
The day a grown teaching professional cannot deal with a five year old themselves without calling out the "jack-booted thugs", that's the day they should find another line of work. Come on, the child is FIVE! What about that do you not comprehend?!! And yeah, I could have dealt with it, at least until her mother got there.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #245
264. Jack booted thugs? Come on, let's keep this conversation serious
Did you watch the video. They did not act like jack booted thugs or in any way treat the girl roughly. Yes, they put cuffs on her. And maybe that was wrong. But your portrayal of the situation is way, way over the top.
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #264
272. Yep
When cops with guns handcuff a five year old child, they are behaving as jack-booted thugs. And my portrayal isn't "way, way" over the top at all. You cannot prosecute a five year old for anything. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't see it that way is as bad as the principal and the cops who terrorized this little one. Shame on you for being so blase about this.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #272
299. Yep (continued)
"When cops with guns handcuff a five year old child, they are behaving as jack-booted thugs."

First, I think all cops have guns so that in and of itself does not make them jack booted thugs. It just makes them cops. Agree? Second, they did not treat the kid roughly. They did not terroize the kid. The kid was out of it to begin with.

But, all that misses the point. I agree with you that they should not have put the kid in cuffs and they should not have called the police.

My point is that you are greatly exaggerating the situation when you say the police were jack booted thugs and terrorized the child. It distorts the event. It is not true. Your language is way, way out there.

And when you go to such rediculas extremes in expressing your opinion, it makes you look far more unreasonable than I see that you are. Keep our shared view on a rational note and more people will be won over to your (our) side is what I am saying.
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #299
324. Clearly, you don't have a clue
Are you a five year old? Have you ever had a five year old? How is it you can say she wasn't feeling terrorized?

And by the by, I really have no wish to look reasonable to you, who thinks this kid was not really harmed in any way. That position is unreasonable, IMO. She was harmed, she was terrorized, she was exceedingly frightened by the whole thing, and her ability to trust will be severely compromised by this incident.

Also, just so you know, I am not in some kind of contest here to "win" anyone over to my "side" on this. I couldn't care less if anyone thinks the way I do. However, it would seem that, from the posts I have been able to read in this very lengthy thread, more posters feel as I do than as you do.
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Cornczech Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #324
343. I am 38 YEARS OLD and am still terrorized
when I see a policeman because of the violent way I was arrested in Washington DC a couple of years ago. My husband and I did NOTHING wrong but look like "hippies" (we were called that by the police during the entire ordeal)and question why we were being arrested...(long story, but I guarantee you that we didn't commit any crime and CERTAINLY not assaulting a police officer). So, if I at 38 am still having issues and nightmares from coming in contact with those lovely law enforcers...(shudder) image a FIVE YEAR OLD!!! I agree with the post of Scairp.

Peace, Ya'll
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #324
437. Not disagreeing with you on no need for the cops
I feel as you do that the cops were not necessary and that they certainly should not have used cuffs. Sorry if I was not clear on that. I was just off on a side note about not exaggerating the situation.

As for her being traumatized, she may have been but I still think she was in a whole lot better head space than when she was bouncing off the walls. I see it as bringing her to reality. Trauma is sometimes also theraputic.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #264
298. Have you ever had you wrists zipped tied behind your back?
It fucking hurts. And do you know how they force your arms behind your back? They yank them the way a bully does. they jerk and twist them.

FUCK THE POLICE.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #298
301. If you yank hard, it hurts
"It fucking hurts. And do you know how they force your arms behind your back? They yank them the way a bully does. they jerk and twist them."

If they did what you said, I would agree with you. But they did not. And fucking the police until we need them. Then they are your best friend. I have to admit I was never in cuffs. But I know police in the U.S. can be abusive even if you cooperate.

The best way to increase your chance the police will not twist and yank the cuffs is to be completely docile as they try to put them on you and while they have you in their custody. Fighting them of course they hurt your wrists and yank.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #301
302. the police are only necessary to maintain the status quo.
the police would serve no function in society without the aggregious and unfair distribution of wealth.

SO FUCK THE POLICE
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #302
320. Tell that to the tweekers down the street
What do you envision the world to be like without the police? I really would like to understand your vision. Please give me some details. I had never considered what the world would be like without them.
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dawgman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #320
380. If their was true equality and justice in our society would people be d
driven to drugs and such things? Or might drug addiction be a symptom of a decaying and decadent society? Come on, if you really believe that you need to be protected from inherently bad people you might be voting the wrong way. Our punitive judicial system is a farce. We should be trying to REFORM people. The punishment of prison and the hope that we can reform people by scaring them straight is absolutely ridiculous. How can you scare someone who has no hope or future?

So yes FUCK THE POLICE. they would be useless if we were intelligent about how organized and ran our society.

Tweekers down the street are the symptom not the problem.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #380
435. How did you get that out of what I said?
Definately people hooked on substances need help, not prison. But, if a tweeker is at my door you can bet I'm calling the police. I'm not going to try giving the guy therapy and I sure won't be cussing the police when they show up.
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alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #301
384. Learning to be docile at the hands of the cops?
There's some indoctrination for you. Succumb fully to authority, and they will, if they feel like it, treat you like a human being.

The best way to increase your chance the police will not twist and yank the cuffs is to be completely docile as they try to put them on you and while they have you in their custody. Fighting them of course they hurt your wrists and yank.

No, the best way to increase your chances is to not be a man of color. Or a five year old black girl, apparently.

When I say FUCK THE POLICE, I don't mean the concept of the police. Obviously police are necessary. But the way cops are trained , and they way they have treated me and other men of color I know, throughout the country, over and over again, even when we have done nothing wrong, even when we are "docile," tells me they are not the "Officer Friendly" who visited my grade school once upon a time.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #384
436. No argument from me on that one.
I'm certainly police treat blacks differently.
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pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #298
403. 66% or respondents think it's ok to handcuff a small child!
we should kick this poll!
handcuffs are just not the answer for disorderly children.

I totally agree with you about not needing police in equal society.

Check out the other post below that starts with "I am a nurse" I thinks it's horsewhisperer, but not sure. Anyway, it's an excellent, reasoned argument against restraint of children.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #245
376. Jack booted thugs?
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 11:18 AM by libhill
Nah - incompetent stupid fucks, maybe. And this is the same state where terrorists were taught to fly airliners, and no one even thought to ask questions. But let a 5 year old get out of control, Johnny law is on the job. I'm impressed. Not.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #206
408. to handcuff a 5 year girl--NO WAY!!
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #145
200. You seem to be advocating this as being acceptable?
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 04:27 PM by Horse with no Name
When you have a 5-year old child throwing a tantrum...you try to divert their attention.
Get her to do something else. Isolate her in a safe place--take her to the gym. There are a number of things you can do.
You don't handcuff her.
I have never seen a competent teacher not be able to handle a child of that age regardless of their behavior.
That tells you right there that this child did NOT have a competent teacher.

I'm surprised they didn't use a taser.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #200
205. oh god please, please. don't give me that crap
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #205
212. So you advocate torture and inhumane practices against young children?
Good to know.
:hi:
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #212
217. oh bullshit. give me a break.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #212
266. Torture? Inhumane? What did they do to her...
slide bamboo under her fingernails? Put her in a cage? I'm trying to figure out if you are being sarcastic of it you really think they tortured her.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #266
282. What they did is
traumatize a young child who already seems to have a lot of problems. It's terrible that people are seeking to excuse the actions of the police. They couldn't handle a five year old? They should not have that job if that is the case. That child looked so scared.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #282
294. The kid was not traumatized. It brought her to her senses.
I understand what you are saying. But the kid was not traumatized. When she found herself restrained was the first time she came back to her senses.

Yes, there was a better way to handle the situation. I agree with you. But, as I look at the video, you can hardly fault them for the way they handled it.

Did you watch the video? If not, you really should. It changed my opinion. Still, someone else on her had what I thought was a good suggestion and that was to take the girl to the gym and let her run wild until she calmed down.
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Cornczech Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #294
345. why do ya'll say
"coming back to her senses?" Have any of you who think this been scared shitless..like a deer in headlights? I was abused pretty badly as a child...and know that when I was young and terrified..I was MOST "calm" (with fear) when faced with a stressful situation.....just my two cents. But I never threw tantrums as a child....I just beat the hell out of any bully or other kid who dared attack me in any way physically...

Peace, Ya'll
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #294
415. You don't know what
you are talking about. I saw that child's face, it was full of fear. I am an adult and have never gotten over my experience with the police. I am African American and had to call the police because someone had broken into my house. When the police arrived, I hurried to the door in my night clothes, opened it, and was faced with about twenty cops pointing guns at me. I told them that I was the person who had called but it did not matter. They screamed at me, told me to come out of the house and when I complied,made me lie face down in the dirt. They could see clearly that I had nothing in my hands but the keys I used to open the door. My hands were up and they knew I had no weapon yet they demeaned me by yelling and forcing me,in night clothes, to lie down in the dirt. A supervisor later apologized for the actions of the police. Later, another supervisor came to the house, also to apologize. That episode has fostered more distrust of the police. In fact, even when riding in my car and seeing a white policemen behind me, I feel uneasy. This child IS traumatized. She will never forget this incident and will probably always fear the police and not trust them. That is unfortunate, children should be able to trust law enforcement. How you continue to support the actions of the police against a five year old is beyond me. That child was treated so harshly because she is African American. Children of all races have tantrums but you will only see the police hancuffing a black child.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #415
508. I am so sorry that happened to you.
It never ceases to amaze me what has been done in the name of law and order to blacks. It never ceases to amaze me that most people don't recognize the profiling either.
All the money in the world from a lawsuit won't heal the wounds this baby has and will carry throughout her life from this ordeal.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #508
514. Thank you.
I will never forget that incident. Unfortunately, my experience is not unique. Other African Americans can recount similar experiences with the police. I feel sorry for that child. Seeing her crying and being handcuffed really upset me.
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nodehopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #415
608. I am so sorry you had that experience and
"That child was treated so harshly because she is African American. Children of all races have tantrums but you will only see the police hancuffing a black child."

That is so true.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #266
378. I am a nurse
and worked at a major Children's hospital.
It is proven science that restraining a child of that age in an aggressive and threatening manner is harmful to their psyche. If you did it at home to your child, you would be arrested and your child would be taken away.
When the need arises that we have to restrain children for medical procedures, we calm the child down first. Explain exactly what we are going to, explain why we have to restrain and have some type of calming and soothing physical presence either having a parent standing by or a nurse holding their hand and talking to them in a soothing manner. We use reward systems.
When you do things such as grabbing and restraining a child in this manner--you create monsters. They lose their trust of the people that they were entrusted to and of the people that entrusted them to their care. You take away their complete control. This child was never given alternatives to what she was doing. The school officials herded her around like a farm animal. If they were playing basketball, you would clearly see that they were in a defensive position and you can be certain that this child felt that. They never attempted to redirect her, they never spoke in positive language-just "don't, don't, don't" and they clearly fail to have the knowledge of how to deal with children in an age appropriate fashion. They caged this child physically with their bodies then couldn't understand when she reacted like a caged animal.
This child was clearly frightened when the officers approached her.
She was sitting in a chair. She wasn't doing anything. She didn't have a weapon. Their presence alone was enough of a threat--they did not have to escalate the situation.
I had training in how to restrain children. We were told this story during this inservice that there was a child once named Jeffrey.
He went to the hospital to have a medical procedure. This was done many years ago. There was a need for restraints on him because he was out of control. This was back in the day before psychologists and child life specialists were used. He was grabbed and put in restraints while his mother and father watched. Nobody explained what was happening because they didn't feel the need to do so. He wasn't comforted by someone he trusted.When this terrified and traumatized little boy left the hospital suffering from what we now know is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, his mother commented that it changed him. He was never the happy little boy that he once was again. During counseling sessions that he was taken to when he didn't "snap out" of the depression caused by the restraining and the fear he felt when it was done, it was revealed that the restraining was one of the triggers that dehumanized the young Jeffrey Dahmer.
Personally, hearing that story during this inservice made me completely evaluate any time that restraints were needed and assess if that truly was the only thing to do.
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pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #378
402. Great story and I think it really solidifies the argument against
restraints. Finally, a voice of reasoned judgement!

:toast:
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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #378
504. Thanks
Former peds RN here too. :hi:

You stated this perfectly.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #378
522. Agree - good post
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #200
265. You seem to have the right solution
Taking her to the gym would have been a good move. I think once in a place where she can not hurt herself I'd try joining in with her as a way to get her head outside of herself.

My husband used to do that with our daughter and it worked really well. She would throw a tantrum - flialing her arms and legs while on the floor. He would lay down on the floor next to her and do the same thing. Not mocking her, but like he was doing the same thing.

Then he would say, "hey, this is fun. Now what do you want to do." She would look at him and get up and the episode was over.
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #200
323. My thoughts, exactly...
this incident sure helped her emotional condition. I'm sure if she had been older they would have used a taser. We just fought the taser battle in my county. Good grief, this kid will never want to go to school again - who could blame her?
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #323
455. Why do you think she would have to be older for them to decide to
taser her? After all, they did taser a 6-year-old (in Florida, of course) earlier this year. I don't think they would consider 5 too young at all.

This country is really scary these days.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #200
335. I disagree
You said: "I have never seen a competent teacher not be able to handle a child of that age regardless of their behavior."

I come from a very long line of schoolteachers, and I was a teacher myself (although at the middle school and high school levels) for almost 20 years, and there have been unruly children in school as long as there have been schools. The problem does seem to have escalated over the past several years however...and why that is, I simply do not know.

What I DO know is that some children have behavior problems - period.

My grandmother was a very well-educated elementary school teacher as was my own mother and even they occasionally had children like this. (Of course, back then, the school simply would not allow the child to return.) I have been attacked verbally and physically myself.

This little girl needs to be evaluated because there's obviously something very wrong, but I would hesitate to speculate on what the problem could be. That should be left to the professionals.

No, the police should NOT have been called. That seems a bit heavy-handed for one so young.

The child should have been allowed to stay in the principal's office or in an empty classroom with the principal in attendance until the mother arrived.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #145
255. When I was in school
kids who disrupted were sent to the principal's office.

Just the thought of being sent was enough to make me behave.


How hard it that? :shrug:

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axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #255
291. it was enough to make you behave
because back in the day the principal had some kind of authority. The asst. principal in that article did as she was trained to do. So the kids run over the teachers, principals and probably the single mother at home (and NO that was NOT a racial remark).
I am a female old enough to remember the paddle at school, did I ever have it used on me? NOPE - it was the THOUGHT that they could. When my son went started school I signed papers for him to get the same thing (at that point I was a single mum too) - did he ever get hit when we lived overseas NOPE - THE THOUGHT OF GOING TO THE PRINCIPALS OFFICE WHERE HE COULD GET PADDLED WAS PLENTY FOR HIM.
Do I think we should bring back spankings in school? NO, not really besides the kids that deserve it would most likely have the parents that would refuse to sign - not to mention liability issues in the U.S.

The child from what I saw in the video looked like she only sat down and started to behave when she saw the cops coming - thru the window on the side of the office - you see her look that way, sit down, then cops come in. I think that child DESERVED to have the cuffs put on her. She was not hurt in any way but she had the living sh*t scared out of her and maybe that will help next time she wants to act up - hopefully, the parent/s will spend more time and attention getting this child counseling, medication if needed and help than time suing the already neutered enough school and school board.

before any one says anything - YES I HAVE 3 KIDS, 2 IN SCHOOL, 1 WILL BE BEFORE LONG, NO I'M NOT A TEACHER AND I HAVE THE GREAT MISFORTUNE OF LIVING IN FLORIDA.....
Sandy
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #144
164. By the time the cops arrived, the little girl was sitting quietly
at the table. She wasn't raging anymore, even if she was still not in the mood to be cooperative.

There was no reason at all for escalating the situation again by handcuffing her. That was some seriously lousy people skills those cops displayed there.

In one of our city's grade schools, the cops did have to handcuff a 9-year-old to get him under control. The boy had gotten so violent in the classroom, throwing not just punches, but furniture as well, that they had to evacuate the other kids. Then, when the teacher and principal tried to remove him from the classroom so that the other students could return and continue with their school day, the boy kicked and struggled so violently that he actually broke the principal's wrist! The cops were called because the teacher and principal couldn't get the boy out of the classroom.

When the cops came, the boy still didn't calm down, but got even wilder and more violent. They finally handcuffed him so they could safely remove him, without getting hurt themselves or having to use too much force and thus risk hurting him.

A good-sized, violent 9-year-old boy can do some damage, and the one here was truly out of control and determined to do harm.

But that little girl in the video is so tiny that she was no real threat to anyone. Even if she had not been calmed down by the time the cops arrived, they could have removed her without the handcuffs. And she was quiet when they arrived, so that makes it even more bizarre that they cuffed her.

Wanna bet there's a huge out of court settlement?

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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #164
208. well there might be a out of court settlement, but I don't have a
problem with them handcuffing her. she only sat down because she saw them coming. and I'm pretty sure that after she figured they weren't going to do anything to her she would go right back into her routine.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #208
219. I'm going to jump in and agree with you.
:hi:
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #69
256. Beat a dog, beat a kid.
Son was hyperactive until I learned that it was all the petroleum, kerosene and coal-tar derivatives that I was feeding him. I used to hold him when he went into tantrums. Once I eliminated the the derivatives, his behavior did a 180. But we have to pump up the profits for the food industry, so we poison our children, and then, we handcuff them.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
261. Did you watch the video? nt
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Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
483. Well, I guess I'm gonna catch hell with this one...
I'm wondering if, in other cases, we're not chemically handcuffing kids with Ritalin and other conformity pharmaceuticals.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. What? No taser?
Believe I'm gonna write a book, "What the fuck is wrong with Florida?"

And you have to go some to impress ME. I'm a lifetime resident of Texas...whoaaa
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MemphisTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You guys would just strap her to Ol' Sparky.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Or let Texas Supreme Priscilla Owen rule a change of venue
when nobody asked for it, and let a young man die from lack of health care while Ford takes more time for its appeal. Get with it, man! Lethal injection is quiet and neat, and letting the injured die from lack of care is also out of sight and out of mind.

If you wanna do tragedy, you have to be vewy vewy quiet. Right?

Believe me, there was a time (pretty long time) when I was really quite pleased to be id'd a Texan. These days, Florida is helpin' take the heat off!
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Same here!
I spent the first 27 years of my life in Texas, another 7 in Jacksonville (red), Florida, and now we've spent 10 years in the Ann Arbor, Mich. area. I do my damndest to try to get away with pretending I'm a Michigander these days, but I keep saying "y'all" and "fixin' to," dammit! What a giveaway!

After blue state living, I'll never go back to a red state. If Michigan swings red, I'll move.

By the way, can I pre-order a copy of your book?? LOL

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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
72. All right! Copy #1 pre-sold! Gotta start now!
(Really IS wild, isn't it?)
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
97. Don't ever say that!
If Michigan swings red

Never! I will not allow it! :P

Hello fellow Michigander, I am in the Ann Arbor area, too. If you've been here 10 years, well, that's a lot longer than most people in this transient town! :hi:
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #97
103. We need to have a meeting for DUers in the AA area!
I think there are more of us than we realize.
:hi:

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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #97
334. Never say never
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 05:58 AM by AnneD
oh yea of short memory. At one point Texas was blue. I never meet a Rupub until I went to college (ok, it was Baylor and I could only stomach a year). And I think I stand on firm ground when I say we gave the country on of it's most liberal presidents LBJ (Viet Nam war aside). We also were the birthplace of Eisenhower, and by today's standard, a liberal GOP.
I can generally disguise my origins until I mention barb wire, cement. You all is a southern thang. Fixin to.....definantly Texan (I have managed to correct that with extensive electroshock therapy).... :rofl:
After living so many years in Texas, every thing else looks....puny. Oh, and don't pin Bubya on us, he's all hat and no cattle. A faux cowboy if ever there was. Like everything else in his life, he usurped the title.
Thanks Fla-for making us look good again.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. I'm in Texas
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:23 AM by libhill
And my area has been pretty bad for years. They'll bust a teenage kid for standing on a corner with a beer in his hand, while the drug lords are running shipments up and down the damn I.H. 35, 14 miles away.
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Longhorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
364. Are you in Liberty Hill?
If so, I'll be headed your way in a couple of weeks for the Armadillo Hill Country Classic Bike Ride, my first real ride. I understand there will be about 1200 of us so if you get out and about on May 7, you're bound to see some cyclists. I'm in Dripping Springs. Howdy! :hi:
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #364
368. Hello there
Enjoy the ride, you'll be seeing some nice country. If you can ignore the fact that Williamson County is redder than red. I'd move to Maine if I could, but the wife will have none of it, although she is a liberal Dem also.
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cybildisobedience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
87. I'd buy that book.
It's like the state is the root of all evil.
Correction: The people running the state, the people OF it.
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Scairp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
188. Yeah, she was one of the lucky ones.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
218. Someone already did. Did you not see 60 minues last Sunday?
It was interesting some of the corrption the author dug up. :P
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darkism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
241. Beat me to it :X n/t
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Peregrine Donating Member (712 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
372. No, our new rules permit tasers only on restrained suspects
nt
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #372
407. or if they are sleeping in school (see Du thread on this issue)
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
612. The kid that they zapped with taser
was brandishing a piece of broken glass. He could have hurt himself or someone else a lot worse.
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
7. OMFG...
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:05 AM by rockedthevoteinMA
This is disgusting.

:wow: (look out the police defenders will be coming soon) :eyes:
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. Not A "Defender" per se
I'm by no means a defender of the police in the circumstance, I believe there are other, alternative methods for which this could have been dealt with without resorting to strong-arm tactics.

But reading the article, it plainly describes a situation where the girl was out of control. Again, let me say, I dont believe this was appropriate in this case. However, my wife is a teacher here in Eastern Tennessee, teaches 7th graders English and Reading. I have heard horror stories about the things that some kids are doing and getting away with because the administration is too afraid to act. For instance, one student a couple months back went off in class, throwing desks, chairs, etc. and threatening to come back and kill everyone in the classroom (his father is a well-known gun salesman in the area). To make things worse, he has been known to do this sort of thing before. When the teachers called the office, they took their time to respond. The end verdict was a slap on the wrist phone call to the parents, who laughed and thought it was funny. Talking to other teachers, this happens VERY often in our area, and the educational community turns their head.

I guess it depends on the circumstance and the degree of competent parenting, but I would welcome just an ounce of this type of action in our area, because I am truly concerned that it is going to end up tragic.
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Thanks for sharing your experience. That's horrible that it occurs
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:37 AM by rockedthevoteinMA
that way... I remember a young man acting that way in my fourth grade class. (in 1987) They took him to the principals office, and in the end sent him to the "alternative public school" (behavior problem school). Sorry if my comment was a little harsh, I don't believe in handcuffing a five year old, it makes my head spin.

I wish there were some sort of way to deal with these problems... like wouldn't a psychologist have been the correct solution? (I know there probably aren't any left at schools with all the budget cuts) My head is spinning from this downward spriral our country is in the midst of.

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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. Interestingly enough
Most all school districts in Tennessee (at least in my general area of Knoxville to Johnson City) have a psychologist on staff to look into these behavior problems when the occur. Sounds good, right?

The problem is the superintendents (who are not elected, but appointed) have created a system over the years that is designed to keep these problems out of the light of the public, because in the end its going to cost the county/city/state more money (thus keeping their handsome pay increases in check). What did they do? They created a "Discipline Director" who was in charge of these incidents. Their standard response to anything is call the parents (thats fine, but the real trouble-makers parents in general do not care). They may even go as far as to send them to "Alternative School", which is optional and if they do go, they get to fellowship with all the other delenquents while doing zero classwork. They aren't even made to work! The end result, they come back from a vacation smug, happy and more careless than ever.

We have a systemic problem in our educational system that plagues just about every school district in America. Unfortunately, the only time that these issues are brought to light is when the Democrats are in charge of the government. The dirty little secret is that the educational system has gotten worse under George W. Bush and his farce of an education plan, NCLB. Now the parents and the children are no longer accountable, its all on the backs of the teachers. Its nothing more than a clever attempt to rule the teachers unions irrelevant.
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LeighAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #32
120. Back in the 70s she would have gotten paddled
Generally, kids didn't act that way very often back then, because a couple of times a year you would hear the swats and howls in the hallway from a child who had gotten out of control in class and acted the fool like that. So it rarely happened. Nobody was on medication, either.

Then the psychologists came and told us that spanking was bad, now we've got millions of kids on meds, many children tormenting and terrorizing their teachers, and five year olds in handcuffs.

For 200 years American Education managed to thrive without the psychologists. Here's what I think about psychology

http://www.hereinreality.com/2002_05_05_lessons.html#76...

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BadNews Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #120
235. B.I.N.G.O. NT/
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #120
240. sadly, I have to agree.
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darkism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #120
242. Endorsing child assault?
People that hit kids should be the ones in cuffs.

Nothing like indoctrinating them into the A'murcan Culture of Violence early by sending them a clear message that it's acceptable to assault people.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #242
268. It is the natural order
Like it or not, that is the only thing some kids respond to. I see it about the same as the way the animal kingdom works. A mother cat wants to get the attention of a kitten, she lets it know. Are we that different.

Saying that, I do think there are a lot of other ways that need to be tried first. I would never have hit my child or let anyone else hit her.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #120
267. Sadly, you are correct.
The meds they put the kids on are horrible.

Check out http://www.ritalindeath.com/
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
204. In my day, they called it the "REFORM SCHOOL"
...and you didn't wanna go there! Just the threat of reform school was enough to keep kids in line.

You have to wonder what was up with that little kid. I can't help but wonder if there was some abuse going on in the home or elsewhere. When kids act out like that, there's often something else going on behind the scenes.
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
227. Behavior Starts at Home
People send their kids to school expecting teachers to deal with any sort of behavior. Schools are blamed , not parents.I do believe that the percentage of unruly chidren is not as large as some seem to think.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #227
258. Behavior starts in the vats of the food industry. If we were not
poisoning our children with additives, they would not act this way. Everyone I have started on natural foods has noticed a marked difference in their child's behavior.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #258
544. Yes, before processed foods kids were all perfect ladies and
Edited on Mon Apr-25-05 04:05 PM by mondo joe
gentlemen.

Please.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
54. My nephew had a kid like this in his Kindergarten class...
He had been transferred from another public school because of his violent outbursts against the teacher and the other children. The city paid for a "personal attendant" for the boy, who monitered his behavior every day at school. It didn't seem to have any effect on the root problem(s), because if the attendant was away from the room, the kid would start in with abusive language, swearing, and threats of violence. Disturbances like this create a chaotic and frightening environment for rest of the kids.

This is one of the real problems in the public schools... So many resources, and so much attention is going to children with problems, that the average children are not getting the attention, or the learning environment, they deserve and require.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #54
58. Precisely
I'll expand on that point. My wife says she spends on an average 1-hour class period, at least 25 minutes in discipline mode. To make things worse, that time that she spends disciplining and maintaining order is wasted because the administration will do absoloutley NOTHING to the offending kid except send them back to class. Then they wonder why her standardized test scores aren't shining and stellar.

It's taking away from the 25 kids in the class that want to learn, when a teacher has to spend half the class period dealing with the 5 who could care less and are chaotic. To make matters worse, the parents of those 5 could care less - school is just a babysitter.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #58
73. Schoolteachers as babysitters.....
Troubled children seem to be the ones with parents who either don't care, or "don't have the time"...go figure.

I sympathize with your wife, and with you, too, because these problems cannot simply be left in the classrooms at the end of the day.

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aintitfunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #58
101. A 5 year old and a 7th grader
do not compare. This little girl may be mean as a striped snake, but she is still a 5 year old. I am not so sure a 7th grader needs to be handcuffed, but I am absolutely certain a 5 year old should not.

I am sorry, however, that your wife has no support system to stop the nonsense in her classroom. The parents and the school administration should certainly do something.

I was born and raised in Johnson City and attended high school in Carter County. They would never have tolerated such behavior, but that was many moons ago.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. Clarification
Above, I believe I pointed out that I didn't feel this was warranted in this particular case. I was merely pointing out that there are other problems in the school system with older students that are not being addressed with as much regard as this one. K-6, no I dont believe that they should be handcuffed and treated this way. In that regard, we are in total agreement.

But since these kids in their teenage years have little regard for authority in the schools and have a lack of parenting, I think that in certain circumstances, they should be treated to a dose of reality. Since the teachers and the parents can't do anything, then the School Resource Officer/Police should be the last resort to take care of extreme problems, such as violent outbursts or other serious offenses. It's sad it has to be that way, its sad the school administrators are unable or unwilling to do anything, but we have to draw the line somewhere and if we have to use the current measures in place by our law enforcement community, then so be it.

By the way, the area you described is near our general vicinity. We know a lot of teachers in the Sullivan, Washington, Carter, Unicoi and Greene counties in that area of the state, and they are all battling the same problems we are.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #58
167. I have an essay on my _Teacher, Teacher_ website
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 01:51 PM by tblue37
called "The Inmates Are Running the Asylum":
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/inmates.html

In it I explain why I will never enter a public elementary school classroom again.

I have taught college English since 1972. I also ran a home daycare for 18 years, while raising my own 2 kids (while still teaching). And when my kids were in grade school, I did volunteer teaching in their classrooms several time a week. I have the knowledge, the skills, and the experience to handle a classroom full of kids--under normal circumstances. But when I substitute taught in the grade schools here during the 2002-2003 schoolyear, I was appalled at the chaos in the classroom, at the unsocialized kids, and at the way the teacher's authority had been totally negated.

If my kids were that age now I would homeschool them. I would never let them go to such a school. Not only would they not learn what they should, they would learn all sorts of things they should not.

I also have an essay on my Who's Minding the Children" website called "American Kids Really Have Changed!"
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/rudekids.html

In it I describe the changes I have noticed in children over the past 25 years. The fact that so many kids were coming into my daycare completely unsocialized is one of the main reasons I closed it.
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #167
274. Great articles...
I really enjoyed them, and agree with much of what you said.

I am an aunt to three un- to under-socialized children, ages 6, 5 and 3. I know what you are talking about. Their parents think that discipline will shatter their fragile egos!

I cannot tell you how much tongue-biting I do in their company. It is terribly hard, because they are family - I want to enjoy the kids. But I simply do not, as their parents refuse to prepare them for life in society.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #274
355. Thanks, Susanna.
BTW, you might want to browse the article index on both of those sites:

Teacher, Teacher
http://www.teacherblue.homestead.com/articleindex.html

Who's Minding the Children?
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/articleindex.ht...

On the homepage of each site you will also find links to all of my other sites, if you are interested in articles about
ADD/ADHD
hearing impairment
grammar and usage
poetry
essay writing

And then there's the site where I post my articles on other subjects that don't fit into the other nine sites. (I guess you could say I am a compulsive writer.)

I also have a site where I post funny true animal stories (like the one about the time I was peed on by a black panther) and another where I post funny true anecdotes about children, because after 18 years of home daycare (plus being a mother to 2 kids of my own), I have a lot of amusing stories.

That's the thing--I love kids. Kids are so great. We really have to work hard to mess them up the way our society has. And yet I can't enjoy the company of most children now, because they are so unsocialized.

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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #355
471. No, thank you...
:-)

I look forward to reading all your articles. I'm glad you're a compulsive writer!
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #471
481. Um, maybe not all of them.
You probably have a life.

I've got 400 of 'em spread across my ten websites (and another 150 I sold a couple of years ago as web content).

Yep, 400 <LOL>.

And as soon as my semester is over and I have turned in my grade sheets, I will put a whole bunch more up.

When I said "compulsive," I wasn't just whistling Dixie.

Heh.

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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
197. Well
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 04:56 PM by libhill
maybe it's time to start paddling their little asses again. I remember one time in school, when I started a fight in class. By the time they wore my ass out with a paddle with holes drilled in it, I was Johnny B. Good. And that was in Jr. High. And when my parents found out why I had been diciplined, they told me "sounds like you had it coming".
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #58
229. I Have 6 Friends Who Have Left Teaching Careers
because of problems like this. Brighter kids are the ones left behind.The kids with behavior problems require all the attention and time .
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #229
313. You said it.
These are facts. I know 2 who have taken early retirement within the last 2 years only because they couldn't stand working with the system as it is anymore.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #229
342. and don't forget aggressive parents...
I have watched in dismay as more and more parent drive teachers away with their 'my child can do no wrong so it must be all your fault' and 'how dare you give my genius child (who never did the work) a failing grade'. The sense of entitlement and lack of responsiblity is astounding.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #58
339. This is one of the reasons I left teaching.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:36 AM by Daphne08
Administrators no longer provide support for their teachers. I realize there are probably many exceptions to this, but I'm speaking of the situation in general.

I taught at the high school (and occasionally at the middle school) level over a twenty year period, and each year this 'lack of support' from the principal and assitant principals seemed to diminish to the point where it was almost an impossibility to actually teach.

The general public has no idea of the difficulties involved in teaching these days.

School boards are terrified of litigation and that filters down to the principals. This fear of lawsuits is one of the factors which is ruining our public school systems! The result--discipline has gone out the window.

As I stated in an earlier post, I do think this particular child has a serious behavior problem, but I could not, and I would not speculate on the cause(s) since I personally don't have enough information or data to do so.
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yorkiemommie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #54
80. re: personal attendants
they call them ' one to ones ' in my school district here in SoCal.

because of the budget crunch, many are now ' one to twos ' and have had their wages cut.

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oneold1-4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #54
118. Children are- -
not to be thought of as intelligence personified nor treated in the manner of an adult! What they "they deserve and require" is training from birth to be a "human". In most cases of children disobedience, the parent or guardian has allowed the progression of it from early on and should be held responsible even to the removal of the child into better custodial response! A child is no longer just a child when abnormal actions create destruction of property, or their own or others lives!
A few thousand in the prisons of the US could easily recount their own destructive youth encounters not ever being addressed as serious or potentially dangerous to anyone!
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #54
223. I take offense at your last statement
As the parent of a child with a disability who has a personal attendant I have heard about how many tax dollars go to helping my son be in school that should go to all the students in school.

I pay my damn taxes and I believe that I have paid for that attendant. Maybe we should rid the schools of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act or the Americans with Disabilities Act then we wouldn't have the wasted tax dollars and 'normal' kids could get the education they're entitled to.

Bullshit.

I agree that behavior disorders and flat out bad behavior detract from the classroom and the ability for teachers to teach. But do not single out students with attendants as the problem or infer that there are a drain on tax dollars for the school (there is separate funding for the IDEA which congress passed in 1974 and has yet to fund beyond 20%)
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #223
311. Sorry you took offense
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 01:03 AM by eowyn_of_rohan
I sympathize with your situation, but stand by my statements.
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
60. Hi, TornadoTN.
Welcome to DU! :hi:

In the situation you describe, it sounds like this was a big part of the problem: >'The end verdict was a slap on the wrist phone call to the parents, who laughed and thought it was funny.'<

Is it because administration is afraid to act, or because they are so limited in how they can legally respond?
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #60
71. Thanks!
Thats the hard part to answer.

The administration (in my wifes case) has shown to be spineless on many occassions because they just dont want to be bothered. Of course, that warrants the question: what the hell are you there for?

On the other hand, a lot of administrators (teachers, principals, etc) are just tired of having no parental support and their hands being tied by ridiculous legal posturing if they get involved. These admins are the ones who have found the "Police Loophole", which involves calling the SRO (School Resource Officer) in to handle discipline situations. In this area, he has a lot more leverage than a teacher or principal, and most sherriffs still have the backbone to deal with these problems. Some of these discipline problems have led to the arrests of deadbeat parents who enjoy cooking meth, doing other drugs, beating their family, molesters, etc. I dont see where its a bad thing in the middle-to-high school environment.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #60
81. Probably a combination
I'm sorry to say it but it is the truth--there is fear in some cases of being accused of racism. Look at how many here were so quick to say this girl was treated this way "because she is black". I don't mean to suggest I think "arresting" and handcuffing a child is alright, btw.
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #81
89. Agreed
I tend to agree with you. It's like the old saying "a few bad apples spoil the bunch".

Just to clarify, my wife teaches in a predominatley white (over 90%) school district. My wife has essentially ZERO problems with the few black students, they tend to be among the better students in the class. Their parents are usually the most involved in their childs education and they look out for them as much as possible.

My wife has made it a habit to clarify all discipline issues at the beginning of the school year with all parents (or at least the 10 or 12 that actually bother to show up) so that everyone knows where the teacher stands on behavior and the parents know what to expect. It opens up communication and trust between parent and teacher. Now, she has to call up all the concerned parents and explain why she has not been able to cover in depth the material that she sends home and the kids are having problems understanding. Guess who are the first parents to blame the teacher? You guessed it, the parents who normally could care less about little Johnny or Sally's behavior problem, but are quick to blame when they fail.

This issue goes much, much deeper than race. Its a societal problem, contributed to by the rabid right wingers demonizing the public school teachers and framing them as lazy and "union lackeys". (This was an actual phrase used in a local election when describing teachers).
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #89
102. I appreciate your insights
I don't have any children, haven't kept up with issues regarding our public schools, except as they involve my nieces and nephews. I started doing some research of my own, to learn about the workings of our local school system, when I heard that we have a school budget crisis, and that long standing programs are being cut out--programs that all of us who attended elementary school in the 1960s and 70s took for granted--such as music and art classes, and even the school milk program, which simply meant that the school provide a carton of mile every day, for each student. The more I learn, the more horrified I am by how out how vast, interconnected,and out of control the problems have become... The LIE of the No Child Left Behind program seems to have a lot to do with the budget crises... Anyway, I have a lot to learn, but thank you for your perspective.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #24
94. A student who threatened to kill people in class got a slap on the wrist?
That is incredible after all the school shootings that have occured I thought that there was almost zero tolerance for that kind of threat?
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #94
100. One would think
Yet, it didnt happen. This kid was taken to the principals office for a day. The kids in that class were taken to the gym, debriefed by the "guidance counselor" that "he really didnt mean it".

His parents were called, they dismissed it as "teenage angst". The teachers were told not to make a big deal out of it. I was seeing red. I called the news media, trying to enlist their help. They refused to get involved, saying it was an "internal issue". Some parents called the school, yet never got the full story. The superintendent basically blew it off and was never held accountable. The issue then disappeared.

I believe that the kids parents ended up taking him out of school so they could "homeschool" him, saying that the Public Schools were evil, liberal, etc. Truth be known, every kid in that grade was terrified of him afterwards, because they all knew he would do it. Since the kid didnt have anyone to pal around with, he whined and cried until his parents decided to bring him home for school.

I'm glad he's not there, but I felt he should have been kicked out, sent to a juvenille facility and recieved some counseling/treatment. He had serious psychological and emotional problems. The bottom line is: this sets a dangerous precedent for the next kid that "doesnt really mean it".
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youspeakmylanguage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #94
143. There were obviously mitigating factors.
The kid and the parents are white fundie republicans. Salt of the earth. They even own a gun shop!

Nothing to see here, people. Please move along.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
109. I feel sorry for teachers
they get horribly behaved kids who get violent and if they call for help the stormtroopers come barging in.

Julie
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pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
404. However, there is a huge difference between a 7th grader's understanding
of consequences and a 5 yr old's. My mom is also a teacher and she's had a desk thrown at her so hard that it knocked her down and she screwed up her back. She was out of work for 2 months going through physical therapy. The child only received a suspension and no police were called. The administration's hands are tied because of fear of lawsuits. She works with emotionally disturbed children and they can be a hell of a lot more out of control than the average disturbed teenager. But in any case, the strength of a 5 yr old is of no comparison to that of a 14 yr old. And their mind's have not developed fully to separate conscequences from those of trust.

Judging from the video, this was just a child being stubborn. She didn't seem to be conscience of the educator's presence. Apparently, school's police had been called on her before and that fear could be what brought her back to reality.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. Self Delete
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:06 AM by vi5
Never Mind.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
10. Why didn't they call her parents instead of the police?
I mean, seriously. She's FIVE.
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Maybe because SHE's BLACK ? eom
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. They did.
Her mother said she couldn't get there until about 3:15 or so. I think this started at about 2 o'clock.

After watching the video, I wonder how the assistant principal could have handled it any differently. The woman has more patience than I'd ever be able to find.

Apparently, there had been trouble with the child previous to this incident:
>Akins, the girl's mother, said she had complained to the school about the assistant principal's treatment of her daughter. She said the administrator has been too harsh with the girl. The police had been called to the school at least once before in response to the girl's behavior. The girl has since transferred to another public school.<
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Prepare to be flamed....
Good luck!
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. lol, need to warm up my coffee anyway.
I'll hold my cup up to the screen.

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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. All I know is....
..if my own daughter were in the classroom I would not be comfortable with any child behaving that way and worry about what she would and could do in that state of behavior. If the principal tried to restrain her he would have been fired. If the cops did anything other than this and she continued flailing about they would have risked hurting her more.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
55. You don't know WHY she was behaving "that way", do you?....
And I guarantee you that you would have been outraged had it been YOUR child that was treated this way.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. See, I'd be more concerned with the WHY
And be focusing on getting my daughter the help she needs. I'd be outraged if my child was emotionally or physically injured after being an innocent bystander though, that's for sure.

I'm not condoning the cuffing - but I don't know what they were supposed to do when her PARENT WOULDN'T COME.

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. Her mom was probably working for a place that would fire her for...
...leaving work. There are lots of employers out there who don't care whether or not you have personal issues that must be resolved in the middle of the day.

What the teachers and the assistant principal were supposed to do is use their collective training and real-world experience to find a solution to the issue WITHOUT calling the police. Once upon a time, school administrators were pretty good at dealing with issues like this.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
213. they have to call the police, that's how they cover their asses.
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cannabis_flower Donating Member (386 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #59
88. What I think they could have done....
is put the child in timeout. Not in the classroom though. That wouldn't have helped. They should have a room with nothing in it but a chair and they should put the child there and come back five minutes later and see if she is ready to behave. If she is, she goes back to class. If she misbehaves again she goes back to the timeout room. It's a pretty effective discipline because when you do that the child does not get the attention she wants by acting out. Perhaps there also should be some escalating punishment such as being sent to the alternative school if even that doesn't take care of the problem.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. No, I don't. And whatever the reason, I hope she gets help....
....But this isn't an either/or situation here. Just because I feel for whatever horrible home life or situation this kid has that causes her to act that way, and want her to get the help she needs, doesn't mean I would want my child to have to spend her school day sitting there while teachers and principals try and calm her from this rage. If this child's behavior issues are this bad she should be in special education of some sort. That's why we have such programs.

Again, I ask what you propose. Clearly she was not listening to anything that they were asking her to do. I don't think she should have been arrested or handcuffed, I simply think that there is much more to the situation on both sides of this.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
96. Exactly. What this girl was doing was outrageous
Everyone needs to keep in mind there are probably around 20-30 other kids in that room, think of how they feel. I don't know if this was the right action but because of our crappy laws it was probably the only action available to them. If it wasn't then what else should they have done, let her continue?
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #96
168. The child's behavior was outrageous.
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 01:40 PM by tblue37
She may be either seriously spoiled or genuinely troubled. If troubled, there could be all sorts of horrible reasons why, and she needs help, not handcuffs.

But sometimes it really is just a one-time thing with a kid, and if handled well it goes away and never recurs (though apparently this little girl was a recurrent problem.)

One little boy in my daycare, normally the sweetest child in the world, went off sort of like that in school one day. When he started yelling in class, they took him to the principal's office, where he knocked everything off her desk, dumped her coffee, and started wildly hitting keys on her computer.

He really was a good kid, and actually well-socialized, but his parents worked long hours, and when they were home, they paid no attention at all to him. Then his little sister was born, the apple of her daddy's eye, and this poor boy became even more of a non-person in his family.

His rage was simply the expression of frustration over his parents' neglect of him.

He was as good as gold in my daycare, but of course he never lacked for attention there. In school, he was one child of many, and the way things are now, only the seriously misbehaving kids can get any attention. So the little guy (who was 8 at the time) acted out and got all sorts of attention. In fact, I was able to leverage the incident to persuade his father to spend one evening a week just hanging out with his son--going to the movies, out for ice cream, to a basketball game, etc. This lasted only a couple of months before Dad went back to spending his evenings in front of the TV while the boy was expected to watch videos in his own room by himself.

But at least he got some time with his dad for a change. He did seem to feel better for it, and the unacceptable behavior never recurred.

My point is that this very good little boy acted out in school just once in total frustration over a deep need that was not being met. It got him the attention he needed for his problem, and the problem was addressed (for a while at least). If he had been in Florida, he would probably have been cuffed and hauled away. Oh, and he is black, so you know it would have marked him forever in the eyes of the teachers and administrators, and probably the other children, at the school.

BTW, he is 16 now--and still as good as gold. You would love this kid.

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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
124. Her behavior was fairly normal
for a child of that age, a little spoiled perhaps. It appears her problems have to do with her relationship with her teacher - that's where the problem is.

There was nothing in her behavior that warranted calling her mom. Any competent,caring teacher could have dealt with this little problem.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #124
162. No, It Is NOT Normal
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 12:43 PM by Crisco
If you think that's normal, I'd hate to see what hell you grew up around.

On edit: please please please tell me you were using sarcasm.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #162
520. Did you watch
the first video? The one before the police came? Sorry, but for some 5 year olds that's normal behavior. And I came from a very nice home, thank you very much. The fact you have to attack me personally shows a lot.

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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #124
236. Wow! You Are Knowledgeable n/t
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #124
392. NORMAL??
Please warn us if you plan to get into a profession dealing with children. That's not normal in the least. She's displaying the behavior of children that I worked with in a home for kids who had severe emotional issues.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #392
521. Already do
and do an excellent job of it, unlike this teacher.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
271. The help she is going to get it to put her on drugs. That worse than ...
putting her in handcuffs. Those drugs are like handcuffing a childs brain.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
216. If someone showed me a video of my child acting that, I would
beat that child's ass like there was no tomorrow. that kind of behavior is bullshit.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #216
259. and if anyone found out that you did
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:41 PM by bloom
child protective services would be giving you a call.


You might end up being the one in handcuffs.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #259
463. nope. sorry they would not. hate to hurt your feelings.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #463
500. And I hate to hurt YOUR feelings
but to "beat that child's ass like there was no tomorrow" does NOT sound like it fits within the Oklahoma law...

"Parents/other persons can use ordinary force as a means of discipline, including but not limited to spanking, switching, or paddling. 21 Sec. 844."

http://www.stophitting.com/laws/stateLegislation.php
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #500
511. sorry, but it would not happen. I know a parent that spank their
kid recently in the principals office. keep trying.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #216
523. Well, that says alot
right there. I'm sure its hard for parents who use physical violence against their children to understand other ways of dealing with misbehaving kids.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
122. that's how I feel about it. I think that they handled the situation as
best as they could. I know the police are not always right, but from what I've seen this was handled pretty good.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Eh, no flames here, but I'll have some of that coffee if
there's any left in the pot.

Besides, it's a single frame, it's the look of suddenly losing control.
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soup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #23
51. Thanks, DS1.
Just made a fresh pot. :hi:

:donut: Have a donut, too.

Which brings us to the bumper sticker I wouldn't let my teenager put on his car: Bad Cop. No Donut. ('But why not, mom? It's funny.')

I hesitated adding the pic - it's sure to raise emotions and that's why I put up the warning.
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MeinaShaw Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
270. Won't get flammed by me nt
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
38. Thanks
I had not read the whole article, so that clears some things up.

I'm not really sure what to think about this, to be perfectly honest. It's a complicated situation. She needed to be restrained, her mother wasn't coming... I guess they did what they had to do by calling the police. I still think the handcuffs were a little much, but I don't really know what else they were supposed to do in that situation.

This girl obviously has some behavior and emotional issues, and I hope she gets the help she needs instead of everyone ignoring the incident and focusing only on the action of exasperated school officials and police forced to deal with it because her parent wouldn't. People would be screaming about a school official physically restraining her too. It's a no-win situation.

And before anyone says tantrums of this magnitude are normal at that age - they're not.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. How many children do you have? How many children have you...
...actually been around for any length of time?
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. I have 2 children, ages 7 and almost 10
And I have been a regular school volunteer for a number of years. I'm in a pre-school and Kindergarten class 2 times a week at a minimum and have been for the past 6 years.

I've also taken classes in early childhood development.

Any other questions?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #56
63. I have two additional questions....
1. Why haven't you seen kids behaving as described in the article before now?

2. Or have you chosen to simply ignore such behavior because it doesn't fit your personal definition of "normal"?

My wife is the assistant director of a day-care school, and she sees this kind of behavior about once a month. Both of my parents were teachers...Dad for 40 years, Mom for thirty-five...and they saw stuff like this on a regular basis. And yes...I've personally taken quite a few courses in early childhood development. And yes...I have children ages 20, 7, and 4.

In what part of the country do you reside where the behavior as described in the linked article either doesn't exist or happens rarely?

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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Again....what should have been done?
Let's assume we can all agree that they shouldn't have cuffed her or done what they did.

What SHOULD they have done? How have you seen these types of cases handled in your many years of seeing this as commonplace behavior.

I HAVE seen behavior like that. At the special education classes that I have been involved in. Clearly this girl needs care and attention that she cannot get in a mainstreamed classroom.

Part of the problem I've found (and I don't know obviously if this is the case with this girl) is that people don't want to be told that their kid have special needs and should be in a more controlled environment so that they can get more proper care and time needed to handle their behavioral issues. Maybe that is not the case here. Maybe this school simply doesn't offer such programs. I don't think either of us know that.

But in the absence of her being in the more controlled and caring environment she clearly needs to learn, what is the solution?
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #64
77. The solution IMHO would have involved...
...taking her to an empty room where she could calm down without having adults and other children around. Once she had calmed down, one of the school counsellors...not her teacher or the assistant principal...could have talked with her at length to try to determine what was making the child so angry.

Once the mother arrived at the school to pick up her child, the school counsellor could have briefed the mother on exactly what had happened, and what what steps needed to be taken to ensure that such behavior did not happen again. Or, had this behavior been a repeat performance by the child involving multiple outbursts over time, the school administation could have simply told the mother that her child was expelled from the school.

But bring in the police to handcuff a five-year-old? All that did was expose extremely poor decision-making skills on the part of the school administration for calling in the police, and the police for thinking that cuffing a child was a normal response.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #77
90. That's exactly what I was thinking
Children with these kinds of behavior problems don't "calm down" by exacerbating the situation with the introduction of even more people and frenetic stimuli. Too often the increase in outside "stimuli" -- ie, attention, noise, upset people -- proves overwhelming for a kid who may not be able to handle it and the negative reaction will only increase.

An empty "time out" room for such children would seem to be a much better alternative. Anyone have experience with this?
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #90
107. Ding! Ding! Ding! theHandpuppet said it, right there
The escalation happened because the child had people all over her, hovering, frenetic, following, yapping in her face... the worst thing for a child in this situation is the increased activity and noise. The best thing for her would have been calm, quiet and peace from the moment she was just being stubborn. Isolate her and find something else for her to do, give her some damned attention when she calms down (which this girl did, by the way, and that's when they cuffed her!), find out what's going on inside her little head. GIVE A DAMN.

The schools around here have school psychologists to work through this stuff when it arises. Sounds like budget cuts are making it more difficult for many schools to have that luxury, but it sure beats moments that escalate into violent tantrums and cops, all of which solves NOTHING.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #90
137. For some the time out room works. For some, they just up the violence
and/or escape. I know teachers who have had to leave 34 kids to chase one kid who runs out to traffic.

One problem is that some kids show up for school totally unprepared to get along with anyone else.

There are other problems which might show up in an otherwise delightful kid and indicate there is something in their world that needs to be examined and addressed.

Time outs are nice and work with kids who are somewhat rational. Thing is, sometimes that is not the case. Teachers do not have time nor resources to deal with more serious solutions. Administrators, facing personnel cuts and screaming parents are not well equiped either.

Some kids are a little beyond the nice, calming effects of time out and do have to be removed for the greater good. Sad but true.

What is really sad, is that almost all of it could be avoided with good parenting, supports and help for parents to learn good skills, time from parents to be with their kids. Sadly, our culture and society does not actually value these things beyond giving them lip service.
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chickenscratching Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #90
150. yes yes yes
i went to a small private school when i was little and whenever anyone had problems, they'd be sent to the music room to calm down.
it worked so well!
even if two kids were having issues, they'd both be sent into the room together, and most of the time would handle the situation themselves.

this not only handled the situation but it made the children more aware of their behavior and good ways to cope with it.
:shrug:
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #77
105. How do you get her to out of the room?
If she won't listen to commands or even calm rational requests, how do you get her out of the room and into the other room?

Can the teacher grab her? Can he touch her in any way?

If not, then the idea of getting her to listen to the teacher and get her out of the classroom without any physical contact could very well be impossible. Then what?

I don't think we're actually disagreeing on this issue as a whole. I'm just saying that there are a multitude of forces and unfortunate issues which lead to things getting to this point and a lot more people being affected by this girl than just her, and the teacher.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #105
202. Most 5 year olds will respond to gentle touch and quiet voices
I am sure she would have taken the hand of a non-threatening adult.
Why not call DCF? They were very willing to intervene in the Schiavo case?
They have social workers they could have sent and perhaps find out why this child was acting out.
A call to them would have been more appropriate than a call to the police IMHO.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
163. I Disagree
Unless you're talking about a padded room; the idea of putting an unsupervised 5 year old in a room somehwere, where she could do god-only-knows-what to herself sounds like lawsuit bait to me.

If neglectful parents (whether because they are low-life scum or well-meaning and overworked) need to have it shoved in their faces that a kid who acts up to this extent is NOT okay.
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #163
239. Thank You, Crisco, I totally agree. n/t
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
185. Well for one thing, the cops didn't have to cuff her
when the arrived, she was sitting quietly and calmly at the table. She was certainly no threat to anyone, nor was she much of a disruption. She was just sitting there.

Then one cop says: "You remember me? I'm the one who told your mom she should put handcuffs on you."

So apparently he's just been itching to do it.

She sits in her chair quietly. The police move towards her, pull her up from the chair, and bring her hands behind her back. Then she starts screaming again.

Why cuff her when they've got her calmed down? That's a big :wtf:
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #63
75. Oh, young kids have tantrums
I'm not saying they don't, some definitely do! I do think that violent outbursts like this are pretty rare all things considered though and are best handled by a caring, calm approach and if necessary, restraining by a parent. Rare, by definition, isn't normal. Chalking it up to a "normal tantrum" doesn't get this poor little girl the emotional help she needs.

I certainly hope that your wife isn't witnessing a child hitting a teacher or school official in a violent outburst on a monthly basis. That is incredibly sad.

It is a very complicated situation. I want to be clear that I don't in any way condone handcuffing a 5 yr old, but I am also not going to pass a blanket judgment on how it was handled because I wasn't there and I don't know their full history in dealing with this little girl and her parents. I do think that the handcuffing went too far, but I know that if a 5 yr old was punching me and acting out and not responding to any verbal calming my first instinct would be to restrain her in a caring hug and let her cry and thrash it out. But a school official can't do that... *shrug* I just don't know.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #63
135. I have studied and worked with young kids for years too and only saw
this sort of 'tantrum' three times, twice when I was a kid myself and we had to deal with a 9 year old total psycho who actually held a girl captive when she was walking home for lunch and then went into the girls rest room and urinated on everyone there. That last trick, he pulled twice and it finally got him removed from school.

That was back in the day when principals could actually touch and retrain kids too.

Working as a preschool aid, I have had to pick a kid up and drag him off other kids (smaller kids) several times and physically keep him in time out area by picking him up and returning him every 40 seconds. He would swear and swing at me, but my arms are MUCH longer and he couldn't bully me like he did the kids. Then he resorted to threats of lawsuits! HE WAS 4 YEARS OLD! Told him to sue away all he wanted to but nobody in the class liked his behavior so he might have trouble with witnesses. He finally started behaving like a human being and I hear he is doing pretty well in school. He mom is one of those who makes horrible threats to him but never actually enforces any rules.

Not all kids are violent. There is a difference between a typical tantrum and seriously violent behavior. It is not all the same. There are degrees and then sometimes a problem becomes chronic.

Kids learn at an early age if they can get away with anything. And those kids are not secure nor happy. They will keep pushing the envelope to test and get attention. They keep swinging blindly for the fences and when there are no fences, the swinging can get pretty bad.

We have some high school kids who absolutely refuse to do class work or even let teachers talk, because they know their parents will throw the tantrums for them if anyone tries to suggest that 14 year olds are NOT in charge. One kid was masturbating in class. His mom doesn't think there is a problem. THAT is the problem.

Meanwhile, what are teachers supposed to do? It is a pretty common complaint that the administrators will not back them up. Too afraid of confrontations with spoiled tantrum throwing parents and lawsuits.

Kids come to school with no intention of getting along cuz too many of them have never had to face any consequences for bad behavior all their young lives. That does not do them any favors. They never learn any coping skills, have no understanding of self control or self calming and are totally egocentric. That makes them hard to like as they get to school. Then their behavior problems increase cuz they are lonely, hurt and have no idea why. They are confused that everyone else does not understand they are in charge and everything they do is cute and OK. They have no understanding that there are consequences for actions. For an example of this taken to an extreme, look at the present occupant of the White House!

Teach the kids to get along. Teach them to honor themselves and others. Teach them by respecting them BUT make sure they understand they are expected to return the favor. Make sure there are consequences they can count on for being good and consequences for behaving inappropriately.

Tots learn and all learning has to start early. The lessons have to be age appropriate but they are smart and they learn, if someone bothers to take the time and be patient to educate them. Little people are VERY smart. We just have to stop being lazy and stop expecting them to raise themselves. Too many parents just don't teach kids anything then yell when the kids get into trouble at school.

Time to stop blaming teachers for not doing with 30 kids what parents wouldn't do with one or two.

I remember how scared and upset I was as a kid when a classmate would go off and behave poorly. I can't imagine how kids today must feel with more and more aggression all the time around them. I do know how frustrated and angry many teachers are. And I know too many good ones who got out of the profession cuz it hurt them too much to worry about kids whose parents just don't give a damn.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #135
170. Excellent post.
You might like to read my essay "What's the Matter with Kid Today?"--also on my Who's Minding the Children? website:
http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/kidstoday.html
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #170
207. Hey, tblue37, thanks for the link to your essay
It makes a lot of sense clearly and honestly.

Hey, the other day, Havocdad said there was an article in the Billings Gazette about a new business to help parents. They will do every thing from potty training the tot to teaching the older child to shoot hoops. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry! His therory is that most people just have kids so they can discuss them at cocktail parties and reunions. He is totally disgusted at the parents he sees who just can't be bothered with actually raising their kids.

The parents he sees are the lucky ones who do not live with the problems of poverty, working 2 or 3 low wage jobs to keep body and soul together. The ones he sees can afford the time with their kids, but choose to buy useless toys and gadgets instead. Breaks his heart as he really loves kids and see the damage done to them and to our culture by the lack of really caring for them.

Again, thanks for the link to the great essay.

hm
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #135
215. excellent post, and to the point.
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phylny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #135
333. I totally agree
I work Early Intervention and see kids with speech or language disorders in their homes for therapy. I have a few kids who will scratch at me, hit me, or kick. Not a lot, but a few.

All it takes from me is a firm voice, and I save this firm voice exactly for this occasion, where I say, "You do NOT HIT ME." They usually try again, more gingerly, looking at me with some skepticism and I repeat it again, firmly: "YOU DO NOT HIT ME!" That's usually the end of it. They get zero attention from me after that if they do persist, and they realize it's more fun not to hit me so they can continue playing.

When I do have to ignore tantrums, or be firm in not allowing any physical violence from these kids, many parents look like they want to "save" their child from me - "Poor Johnny, my baby!!!" I tell the parents that it is unacceptable for a child to hit me, any adults, or any other children. But I'm often amazed at how many parents accept this physical punishment from their kids. I don't accept it, and it doesn't happen again to me with the kids I work with.

Oh, and Early Intervention is birth to three.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
127. Watch the first video
the one before the police arrive and see if you say the same thing. Her behavior was not that bad and only escalated because the teacher didn't know how to handle the situation.

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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
128. thank you. can you imagine what she could do to one of her
classmates in a state like that.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
169. No, such violent tantrums are not normal, especially not at that age.
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 01:53 PM by tblue37
And I speak as someone who has raised 34 children, most of them from infancy.

However, nowadays, this sort of tantrum really is quite common, because parents don't have a clue about what is normal behavior or how to teach their children to manage their impulses and anger and behave in socially aceptable ways.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
47. I don't give a darn how she was behaving...you don't CUFF A CHILD!!!...
What the HECK are you thinking????
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RaRa Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
68. Agreed. You can restrain a 5 yr. old w/o cuffs. Ridiculous. n/t
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
82. what do you suggest?
I think in an ideal world you are correct. However, the child is dangerous to herself and others. What do you suggest?

We had a situation in my daughter's preschool (yes--preschool). A violent boy would loose it at least once or twice a week. He would throw things, hit and kick the teachers and other children. The parents were doing nothing. Finally, the school mandated that if the parents were not sitting there with the child, he could not be in class.

The teachers are in a bad position in which they cannot restrain without allegations of assaulting the child (likely from some on this forum). The police needed to be called. And the child needed to be restrained. Poor thing. I wonder what is going on at home.

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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #82
142. Wasn't it just last week we had a news story about a mom calling 911
because her 12 year old was kicking holes in doors. The 911 operator got into trouble for asking "Did you want us to come over and shoot her?" :eyes: The mom got all offended by the question.

So, she can't control her own kid, calls 911 for what is clearly NOT an emergancy, then gets in a snit and throws her own tantrum cuz the operator pose a satirical question pointing out the foolishness of her calling 911.

THAT is a symptom of the disease folks. Nobody is raising too many of the kids and then kit the panic button when the kids act like wild critters.

The kids get worse cuz they have never been taught how to behave and just esclate the behavior which have worked so far to get what they want.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
427. Okay, so what was their Plan B? The cops?!
You know, that's just nuts. Most parents aren't going to be able to magically materialize in these situations.

I have a family member who went out of his own control until we finally found proper treatment. He's 6'5" and 300 lbs. And I had no option to call his parents.

What part of "mental health issues" do you guys not understand?

The staffer could have had a PLAN. She could have enlisted a partner, who would hopefully have already drilled this with her, and together taken the kid to a secure space until they contacted someone to help.

Calling the cops is completely inappropriate, but easier than actually thinking it seems or dealing with the realities of a public school.

This school should be shut down. It's obviously not safe for ANYONE.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
172. Kids that act like that probably won't listen to parents either
The parents probably either don't know how to, or refuse to, discipline their kids.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. Don't cops in Florida
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:14 AM by libhill
Have any real Law Enforcement work to do? With all of the illegal drug traffic that goes through there, they should have better things to do than bust a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum. Fucking ridiculous. This whole goddamn nation has gone insane.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. OK, "they" called the police so the police HAD to respond ...
... at what point did it seem to be the right thing to HANDCUFF a 5 year old?------Imagine what the fools would do to an adult ....

Is there no training for police there?
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. Does make you wonder -
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 07:33 AM by libhill
Too bad Florida law enforcement wasn't that zealous about suspicious Middle Eastern men taking flying lessons. Probably out raiding a pre school.
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TX-RAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
179. "Don't cops in Florida",Have any real Law Enforcement work to do?
Yep they sure do, and having to stop and respond to bullshit calls like this, just interferes. The police shouldn't have been called. this should have been handled by the school.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #179
192. Amen to that
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 04:01 PM by libhill
Agreed. There should have been some other option for the school authorities to take. I find it difficult to believe that a facility full of adult staff, could let a 5 year old child take control of a situation like that. Ditto the police. At the very least, seems like a child protective service Officer or mental health Officer should have responded to that call. Many P.D.s around the country are starting up specialist units like that, for these types of situations.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
17. Why don't they have a clean well lighted place with a caring adult
That girl needs some serious attention, sounds to me. Not handcuffs.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
19. Seems like she got caught up with 3 yrs or parenting when those cuffs
clicked on, and finally there was a repercussion for going fucking nuts in class.
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
21. My son is five. This makes me vomit.
Kids have been throwing tantrums since the dawn of mankind, yes, even violent tantrums. The media acts like today's kids are somehow different from every other generation of kids that has ever been in existence. This little girl needs help in learning to control her frustration, but she is not a fracking criminal! Jeez.

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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. The problem is that the school is not allowed to touch her
If schools weren't sued right and left for touching children someone could have held this brat down until she calmed down.
I blame the partent(s) and I blame society for creating the lousy parent(s).
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
112. Not necessary
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 10:07 AM by Demgirl
They could have dealt with this situation without touching her. What are they teaching education majors these days?
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MollyStark Donating Member (816 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #112
356. How would you handle it without touching the child?
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 09:40 AM by MollyStark
pray tell?

Did you watch the film. The child kept hitting and kicking and destroying property.
Years ago that child would have been held with her arms crossed in front of her until she stopped struggling and listened to reason. Then she would have been sent home to a parent who would have said or done something besides blame the AP and teacher for her daughters lousy behavior.
If the child has emotional problems then she needs intervention. But there is no reason she should have been allowed to tear the classroom apart and then the VP's office too.
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #356
491. Good question
Philosophical differences on law enforcement and race and education and child rearing aside, the assistant principal was faced with a bad situation and had to solve it in the moment. A child who is acting like this child was cannot be allowed to assault people in the school and destroy property, so the school HAD to deal with the immediate situation the best they could.

The problem is so large and the options are apparently very limited. The school removed the child from the view of other children, which was the right thing. They asked for assistance from the parent, also the right thing. But they could not touch her or use any kind of restraints on her.

The school's options were so limited that they had to seek outside intervention. It is state law in my state that if a child in public school threatens to kill another person, the police MUST be called.

But the real issue people seem to have is with the handcuffing. Whether that was excessive depends not just what is on the film, but on the child's history of behavior. It seems that she calmed down when the police came, and that tells me that she has some control over her behavior and is using her outrageously violent outbursts to intimidate and get her way. But I could be wrong and it could be a medical condition, or a situation of family abuse that is causing her to act out this way.

There certainly need to be intervention. There needs to be family counseling and maybe, just maybe, this event is a stimulus that will cause that to happen. It sounds like to me that this child has lots bigger problems than having handcuffs placed on her wrists.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #112
560. Teaching Education Majors learn to teach - not to police the disturbed
children inappropriately allowed in the school.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #560
582. Self Fulfilling Prophecy
Teachers need to learn that their own expectations have a tremendous impact on a child's behavior - good or bad.

And a teacher who doesn't understand child behavior isn't capable of doing her job. Teaching is all about child behavior, you can't artificially separate the two.
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SCDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. Exactly
when I was 5 and my brothers used to tease me constantly I would throw a tantrum and cry to the point I would throw up.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #21
146. yeah, but in my day you threw a tantrum like that and your ass
would be on fire. they can't do that anymore, they can't even hollar at the kids any more. that video shows you what the society has been reduced to.

Folks this is why the republicians are winning. this little incident will get national attention, and those that speak out against the handcuffing will be labeled liberal and a democrat. those who are ok with it will just sit back and count the votes from the swing voters.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #146
176. It is sickening
to see people supporting the police cuffing a five year old child and I suspect this behavior is acceptable because the kid is black. This incident did not have to escalate. Idid so because of the attitude of the administrators and the police. All over this country black parents can tell of incidents in which their children were treated differently than white children who engaged in similar behavior. I have witnessed such occurrences myself. A black kid is mouthy and he is suspended. A white kid does the same thing and the parents is called in and the white kid is given a slap on the wrist. Just last week my friend's son who had failed a grade, was told by a teacher he was too big to be attending regular high school and it was suggested that he attend night school get his GED. This kid had not committed any violent act at all but was fooling around in the hallway as other kids do.

Justifying the handcuffing of a five year old is disgusting. All the police had to do was restrain her hands and feet. One cop could have held her feet, the other her hands. She was a five year old, a five year old. Now it's OK to cuff a five year old? If that is OK then this society is more sick than I ever believed. The sad fact is that black children are often treated differently by administrators and teachers. This kind of treatment would never have been given to a white child and everyone knows that.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #176
209. bull shit, I'm black and I don't have a problem with this. you
can't be naive enough to think that you can forcibly hold someones hands and feet are you. if you are I would love to see the look on your face when that poor sweet little innocent child's mother hit your ass with a lawsuit.

please, please, lets get real about this particular incident. this is why liberal has become a bad word. I can guarantee you this is just what the repugs want to bring home those swing voters. and as a BLACK person I can tell you right now that a lot, A LOT of blacks will not have a problem with this.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #209
286. Bullshit right back at you.
And I say once again that the action taken against this child was because she is black. Children of all races have tantrums just like this kid but are never handcuffed. In fact the cops would never be called to handle a five year old child. People like you eagerly support the cops when the person being injured is black but it's another story if the child is of a different color. Nothing that child did justified the way she was treated. She is further traumatized and will probably always hate the police. Furthermore, as a mother, I would have preferred to have the police restrain my child's hands and feet rather than put handcuffs on her, something she will never forget. What they did was despicable and they did it only because of her race and ensured that there will be a lawsuit. If you, who claims to be black, can't see that, well.........
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Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #286
319. Ai ai ai....Okie, I feel your pain
"And I say once again that the action taken against this child was because she is black. "

You're right, the fact she was out of control had *nothing* to do with it. The fact they did most of what has been suggested here (being quiet and calm, removing her) and it failed had nothing to do with it. I'm sorry, but to make a statement like that, based on the facts (or in your case, the utter lack thereof), is just asinine.

"People like you eagerly support the cops when the person being injured is black..."

In case you were wondering why the Dems (my former party, I'm now an Independant) are getting they're butts kicked recently, it's in no small part because of comments like that... Baseless ad hominem attacks like that--particularly the race card--aren't helping your cause. :eyes:

"She is further traumatized..."

Further? Where was the original trauma? And I'm willing to bet her classmates, the teacher, and the Assistant Principle were just as "traumatized". Why aren't they getting any sympathy?

"...something she will never forget."

You say that like it's a bad thing. Maybe I'm being too Pavlovian here, but if she associates that "trauma" with her bad behavior, maybe, just MAYBE, she won't do it ever again...

"What they did was despicable and they did it only because of her race..."

Not as despicable as your blatant attempt to portray Okieinpain as a racist, I assure you. Nor your baseless insinuation that anyone involved was motivated by racism.

Warning! Do not follow the following link if you can't handle:
1. Swearing.
2. Anything that strays too far away from being "PC".
3. Have absolutely no sense of humor whatsoever.

For those of you with stress-free lives, go here for a quick laugh over the "race card":

http://www.illwillpress.com/hatta.html

;-)
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #319
417. Baloney
Lots of children get out of control but the cops aren't called. Even teenagers get out of control but many times the cops talk to them and don't handcuff them. Stop making excuses. THIS WAS A FIVE YEAR OLD. This action of the police is acceptable to some because the child involved is black. If you think my telling the truth is playing the race card, so be it. Calling black people racists who complain about racism is just another attempt to silence them.

THE MISDEEDS OF BLACKS ARE OFTEN SEEM TO BE FAR WORSE THAN THAT OF WHITES WHO HAVE COMMITTED SIMILAR ACTS. THAT IS A FACT THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE WISH TO DENY.

Your assertion that trauma will make this child behave differently is absurd. All it has done is foster bitterness and fear. Harsh treatment doesn't always change behavior;it just makes children meaner and they carry that meanness into adulthood.

As far as your assertion about that other poster, I call it as I see it. There are people who are always ready to defend others who have treated blacks unfairly. They always try to find excuses to justify the harsh action. I've seen certain people even defend the police who have shot unarmed black men who were running away from them and are no threat.

This was racism, pure and simple. When have you ever heard of a five year old child other than an African American being handcuffed by the police. Black children are not the only ones to have tantrums in school. You haven't heard of it because it doesn't happen.

As far as your wondering why the administrators aren't getting any sympathy, they don't deserve any. They completely mishandled this situation causing damage to a five year old. It's most unfortunate that you are unable to realize that.
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Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #417
479. Pathetic.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 12:47 AM by Beel2112
"Lots of children get out of control but the cops aren't called."

True. But sometimes they are called; exceptions do exist, and this was one of them. So you have no point here.

"Even teenagers get out of control but many times the cops"

So you admit the cops do come at times, thus verifying my point above?

"This action of the police is acceptable to some because the child involved is black."

Yes, to some, it is. And those "some" are racists. But it was acceptable to "some" of us because the kid was out of control and had it coming to her, not because she's black. See, I can use generalizations to "prove" things too. :hi:

"If you think my telling the truth is playing the race card, so be it."

Well, therein lies the problem. You're welcome to believe that what you think is the truth, but that doesn't make it so. I'm afraid your opinions don't dictate reality. Okie simply stated the fact that this kind of stuff wasn't put up with in the past. You then turned around and made an @ss out of yourself by screaming racism.

"Calling black people racists who complain about racism is just another attempt to silence them."

Playing the race card is an attempt to silence someone too. And for the record, I had no idea you were black.

"THE MISDEEDS OF BLACKS ARE OFTEN SEEM TO BE FAR WORSE THAN THAT OF WHITES WHO HAVE COMMITTED SIMILAR ACTS."

"Often". Again with the specifics. But again, I'll give you this because in and of itself, it proves absolutely nothing in regards to this specific case. You're assuming because it's true in some cases, that's the case here. There are far more logical--and likely--reasons for the handcuffing, such as her outrageous and violent behavior.

"All it has done is foster bitterness and fear."

If that fear of getting cuffed again for misbehaving keeps her in line in school so that the other 20-30 kids can learn--GOOD. I will take that trade--she is no more important than the other kids in her class.

"As far as your assertion about that other poster, I call it as I see it."

So do I. And as everyone with half a brain can see, you played the race card. And I agree with Okie--people like you, who make asinine claims based on emotion and not reason, are part of the reason the Democratic party has gotten thumped the last few elections.

"There are people who are always ready to defend others who have treated blacks unfairly."

Just as there are always people who are quick to scream "racism!" whenever they see something they don't like. The facts here are:

1. She was violent and misbehaving.
2. She calmed down only when the police arrived.
3. If the police had done nothing, she would have more-or-less gotten away with her bad behavior with no consequences. To quote my favorite band, "Can't do the time? Don't do the crime." (Rush. (The Canadian rock group, not the pundit!)

"They always try to find excuses to justify the harsh action."

Does it ever occur to you that maybe the harsh action WAS justified? (Or that you're making blanket generalizations?)

"I've seen certain people even defend the police who have shot unarmed black men who were running away from them and are no threat."

That's all well and good but:

1. Your personal experiences are biased and statistically insignficant.
2. Much like most of your argument here, this is a red herring; it's totally irrelevant to the situation at hand. But nice try at attempting to make it emotionally charged. Not that I can blame you, because as far as facts and logic go, your argument is beyond hope.

"This was racism, pure and simple."

I might find your argument a tad more effective if you had more than anecdotal evidence and the tape didn't show a child that was way beyond any "normal" disciplinary problem . But feel free to keep repeating your "fact"--some sucker will eventually parrot you. Though I'm sure with such a strong case, you'd never have to resort to repetitiveness in lieu of reason...

"When have you ever heard of a five year old child other than an African American being handcuffed by the police. ... You haven't heard of it because it doesn't happen. "

Or it could be I'd never heard of it because the plaintiff's sleazy lawyer didn't realise videotape of the incident in a pathetic "argument by emotive language" case. You don't suppose the videotape is the reason this made headlines, right? You don't suppose THAT'S why this is a big case, and not the fact that the girl happens to be black? It couldn't possibly be that simple, now could it?

Oh, and you really should be careful with your argument by incredulity/generalization (your "you haven't heard..." line). See, what *I* hear isn't significant. But what's even more damning is that a 5-second Google search proved you wrong; it does happen (or at the very least, has happened before). A 5-year old was handcuffed just a few months ago:

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041215-065745...

And of course this assumes that EVERY handcuffing of a 5-year old (which are--presumably--never actual arrests and therefore may not have to be reported by the police) is reported in the news.

From the article above, you may notice something--race isn't even mentioned. Why is that? It couldn't be because race wasn't a factor there (just as it wasn't here--until you and others brought it up)?

"...the administrators aren't getting any sympathy, they don't deserve any."

Well, they get my sympathy because I've been in their shoes (but with older kids). And what about the girl's classmates? You seem to have--yet again--forgotten all about them.

"They completely mishandled this situation causing damage to a five year old."

Even if they had handled it differently, there's no way of knowing it would have worked. They showed an exemplary level of patience with a problem child who was out-of-control. They did the best they could; this kid was beyond their means to control. So the police show up and take control. Like it or not, the police resolved this situation. Was it the ideal solution? No, probably not. But it worked, and if this kid learned the lesson, than she is better off for it.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #479
480. Behavioral problems - possible cause?
http://www.allaboutmoms.com/bedkids.htm


"A variety of emotional problems may be found to lie behind a child's behavioral difficulties. Among the most common are: insecurity resulting from family disharmony or a broken home, jealously of another member of the family, lack of affection, disfigurement or disability, over rigid discipline at home or at school, fear of failure or feelings of guilt, whether real or imaginary. Sometimes emotional problems resulting in behavioral difficulties proves too deep rooted to be identified and treated by the parents alone. In these cases, a professional counselor, social worker or psychologist should provide the child with the guidance they seek"

This kid had long term behavioral problems for years, as evidenced by her mother calling the police on her when she was three. I don't see the word police in this paragraph as far as seeking treatment for this child. Too bad the mom didn't think to get help from a mental health professional before calling the cops. If she had, this event could have been avoided.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #479
501. Blah, blah, blah
Just more excuses to justify what is inexcusable. There is no justification to handcuffing a five year old. I did not even bother to read all of the nonsense you posted. Just another offering of excuses for treating blacks unfairly. All this incident has done is caused more black parents to worry about their children. I have friends who worry each time their teenagers leave the house, fearing they may have an encounter with the police. Some have even advised their sons not to purchase late model cars because they know they will be more likely to be harassed by law enforcement. Several of my friends sons have been pulled over by the cops many times, one even put into shackles and taken to the station. No charges were ever filed because the youths weren't violating the law. Don't try to tell me, a black person, about my experiences or those of other black people in a society where many disrespect them and always support the police. I know racism when I see it. And it is purel racism when a five year old black child's tantrum is considered worthy of her being handcuffed.

I stand by what I wrote. If this child had been white, no cops would ever have been called. I don't care how out of control she was, she did not deserve to be handcuffed. It's a sad day that adults will accept the handcuffing of a five year old child, but then, they are only accepting of this if the child is non-white.

It is so disheartening to see people in the twentieth-first century willing to accepting the mistreatment of a defenseless five year old. I am reminded of the pictures I've seen of the mobs celebrating at the lynching of a black man, woman and child. For some individuals, black people are always deserving of the worst of treatment. I guess it will be a long time before racism is eradicated in this society.
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Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #501
507. Classic example of why racism isn't taken seriously enough.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 03:55 PM by Beel2112
"Just more excuses to justify what is inexcusable."

Your knee-jerk reaction of claiming racism is inexcusable, yes.

"I did not even bother to read all of the nonsense you posted."

You mean the stuff where I showed you why you're (embarrassingly) wrong? Yeah, I can't say I'm surprised you're pretending it isn't there.

"I have friends..."

And yet again, your personal observations can form your opinion, but they don't dictate the reality that this kid was out of control and the police successfully ended the situation.

"Don't try to tell me, a black person, about my experiences..."

:rofl: I never did any such thing, as I'm sure you're aware. I'm pointing out that just because you think it's racism doesn't make it so. I think the handcuffing was done because of the situation, not the kid's race. I base that on the facts present in the article (and particularly the video): the background/history of police contact, the teacher's comments, and the child's behavior. What do you have going for your argument, other than "Racism is a factor in other unrelated situations, therefore that must be the case here."?

"I stand by what I wrote."

And I stand by what I wrote--that you (and others here) are trying to turn this into a racism issue without any evidence.

"If this child had been white, no cops would ever have been called."

Your proof of that is what, exactly? That it hasn't--to your knowledge--happened before to a white person? See above.

"I am reminded of the pictures I've seen of the mobs celebrating at the lynching of a black man"

OMFG--now you're comparing handcuffing an out of control kid with lynch mobs? You do realize that any sensible person--racist or not--would have to fight the reaction to laugh in your face if you said this out loud, right? You do realize you're hurting the fight against racism with this absolutely ridiculous analogy, don't you? That blatantly ridiculous statements like this are why many people won't take racism seriously enough?

"For some individuals, black people are always deserving of the worst of treatment."

I won't deny that. However, there's no evidence that the people involved in this case fall into that category. Given your risible analogy above, it looks to me like--ironically enough--you're on a witch-hunt for racists.

"I guess it will be a long time before racism is eradicated in this society."

I agree--and in my eyes, your actions/statements above are only going to delay it. (It's also my personal belief that we'll never fully eradicate it.)
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #507
517. Oh please spare me.
I know racism when I see it and calling people who oppose racism racist just won't work. When do you ever see the police dishing out to white youths the kind of treatment given to blacks? When has a white man ever been shot 41 times in his own doorway? When do you ever hear of a white youth being beaten and head slammed against a car with his hands handcuffed behind his back. When have you heard of a white girl sleeping in a car being gunned down by the cops. And when have you heard of a white man being beaten fifty times by the cops after he had been subdued. Why do we never hear of the cops shooting white kids in the back as they are running away and are no threat? Black people have to live with Driving While Black. Whites have no such worry. The plain truth is that in this country, many law enforcement officers are prejudiced against African Americans and treat them far more harshly than they do members of the majority community. And there is prejudice among educators, also.

Many black parents, some in my family, can recount instances in which school officials meted out far harsher treatment to black kids than they did for white students guilty of similar offenses. A black kid misbehaves and he is shifted to Special Ed classes or thrown out of school. A white child does the same thing but does not suffer the same fate.

It is you who have the problem. If individuals with your attitude are not racists, they certainly are persons in deep denial about the disparity in the treatment of blacks and whites in this nation.

All you do is spout more right wing rhetoric straight out of Rush Limbaugh. The right wingers use code words which most blacks and progressive of other races recognize immediately as referring to African Americans. Such phrases as "victim mentality" "law and order" "welfare queen" are code words used for black people. Yes,it will be a long time before racism ends and it's because so many individuals share your views. It's easier to blame the victim of injustice rather than seek ways to end it. But then again, such persons may not really want to end it. I sometimes think that there are people who would be more than happy to see a return to Jim Crow.

Racism is ugly and I suspect most blacks don't like to talk about it. But if black people had not spoken up, we'd still be living under racial segregation with all of its horrors. I suppose you think Martin Luther King, Frederick Douglas, and others should have remained silent?

So far, I have been able to trace my ancestry all the way back to beginning of the nineteenth century yet I sometimes feel like an unwanted foreigner in the land my people helped to build. And I am not alone in feeling this way.

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Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #517
528. When you're in a hole...
...the best thing to do is stop digging.

"I know racism when I see it..."

So, pray tell--what did you see in the video that was racist? Ignore your anecdotal (and thoroughly irrelevant) evidence and focus on just the video. There was NOTHING racist there. Nothing.

"When do you ever see the police dishing out to white youths the kind of treatment given to blacks?"

Try turning on "Cops" sometime. And FYI, more whites are killed by cops than blacks. But you are right--they never seem to make the news. Oh, and please note the source:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0428-04.htm

There's also a far better explanation than racism for prejudice against blacks by police officers when it comes to violent crimes: blacks are 7 (yes, seven; 6.9 to be specific) times more likely to commit homicide than whites. (http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm ) They are also responsible for a grossly disproportional amount of violent crimes. (http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus0202.pdf , table 40) And no, these unfortunate facts come not from Rush Limbaugh but from The Bureau of Justice Statistics: http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/welcome.html .

"When has a white man ever been shot 41 times in his own doorway?"

How many times has that happened to a black man? Once? (Before you fly off the handle, yes, once is too much.) And how is that relevant to a 5 year old girl getting handcuffed years later and hundreds of miles away by different cops? (I'm assuming you're referring to the incident in NYC?) Your examples here are largely one-shot deals. You're taking the absolute worst-case scenarios and trying to pass them off as standard behavior by the police. It's akin to me going to a federal prison, finding the most violent black criminals there, and trying to pass of their behavior as indicative of blacks in general. I think we can both agree that that would be absolutely moronic? Your argument is only going to work with people with very poor math skills. You might want to pick up a little book called Innumeracy.

"The plain truth is that in this country, many law enforcement officers are prejudiced against African Americans and treat them far more harshly than they do members of the majority community."

The plain truth is that your argument is utterly worthless; "many" is not descriptive. Many cops aren't prejudiced against blacks. What proof do you have that the officers in question here fall into your category and not the other? Answer: Nothing but other totally unrelated stories of prejudice and hypotheticals. What do I have to place them in my category? "...the facts present in the article (and particularly the video): the background/history of police contact, the teacher's comments, and the child's behavior." Yes, maybe this was done out of racism. But surely you can see that the preponderance of evidence lies on my side of the argument?

"...far harsher treatment to black kids than they did for white students guilty of similar offenses."

How similar? And did they have similar track records? (And yet again, you're using personal observations in lieu of statistically significant data.)

"It is you who have the problem."

Well, if having common sense and using reason instead of emotion is a "problem", yes, I guess I do.

"If individuals with your attitude are not racists..."

Ooooooookay....

"All you do is spout more right wing rhetoric straight out of Rush Limbaugh."

I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, nor have I read any of his books. And unlike yourself, I've been sticking to facts and logic.

"Such phrases as "victim mentality" "law and order" "welfare queen" are code words used for black people."

Good to see you read my other comment. Of course, I was talking about the other students too, as they were victims as well. Yet you focused on the one kid that actually started it all. That's why *I* used the term. As for right-wingers, they're free to use it as they please. But feel free to try to tar me with that wide brush of yours.

"I suppose you think Martin Luther King, Frederick Douglas, and others should have remained silent?"

Well, if you did, I'm afraid you'd be wrong. Again.

"So far, I have been able to trace my ancestry all the way back to beginning of the nineteenth century yet I sometimes feel like an unwanted foreigner in the land my people helped to build."

Well I'm sorry you feel that way, but sympathy isn't going to make your argument any better.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #528
545. Don't be ridiculous
Just more right wing talking points. I did not even bother to read beyond the first few paragraphs. I knew exactly where you were going. Just another attempt to justify the mistreatment of African Americans. I've heard it before. Some people have no minds of their own. But wait, perhaps they do, and love Limbaugh, Horowitz, O'Reily and other haters of blacks because such individuals support their own bigoted views. I'll bet you love David Horowitz too. Remember him? The man who said blacks should have been happy that their ancestors were brought to this country. If you think I need or want your sympathy, think again. I have nothing but utter contempt for people who think it is OK to handcuff a young child. I have nothing but contempt for people who are willing to excuses the injustices continuously meted out to blacks by law enforcement agencies across this country. The wellbeing of our black children mean nothing to certain individuals as evidenced by some these posts. Your post clearly show exactly where you stand. African Americans don't look for sympathy. All we want is to be treated fairly, to be able to live our lives not having to worry that we will be treated unjustly simply because of our race. This child will be scarred by what happened to her. It was done for only one reason, she was a black child.
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Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #545
559. Way to ignore the facts...
"Just more right wing talking points."

See the subject line. My sources were CommonDreams, a progessive news site, and the Bureau of Justice Statistics (nonpartisan).

"I did not even bother to read beyond the first few paragraphs."

:spray: Really? Then why'd you write this: "If you think I need or want your sympathy, think again." ??? It's almost as if you were responding to my last paragraph. Almost. And while we're on the subject, why did you bring it up if not to elicit sympathy (not necessarily from me)? Just felt like sharing some of your feelings with me (the guy you're arguing with)?

"Just another attempt to justify the mistreatment of African Americans."

No, just another attempt to get you to understand you have no grasp of numbers. You picked a handful of extreme examples and are trying to make those sound like frequent behavior--they're not. Yes, they're horrible and should never happen. Yes, profiling exists. But just because this little girl is black does not mean the handcuffing was racist. It's probably standard procedure to handcuff ANYONE that is being violent.

"Some people have no minds of their own."

It's good to see I've reduced you to ad hominem attacks. Care to admit you're wrong now, or would you like to continue your farcical defense of using the race card?

"I'll bet you love David Horowitz..."

Nope. And I certainly don't support his Academic Bill of Rights garbage. Do you have any defense of your race card, or are you going to keep making attacks on me? No offense, but not one of your attempted smears has even been close to the truth. (Limbaugh, O'Reilly--who I really can't stand--, and now Horowitz)

"The wellbeing of our black children mean nothing to certain individuals as evidenced by some these posts."

Let me explain it to you one more time: just because some of us think this kid--who happens to be black--got what was coming to her does not mean we don't care about all black children. The only connection between the two exists only in your mind. I strongly encourage you to take a course in logic.

"It was done for only one reason, she was a black child."

If the police had come into the class room and just slapped the cuffs on for no reason, yes, I'd say you'd have a very strong case. But there's this little problem where she was tearing apart the classroom, the asst. principal's office, swinging at the AP, forced the class to evacuate their room, and was not responding to any authority figures. There was also apparently some history with her and the police. That's why your statement above is just stupid, and it's going to remain stupid no matter how many times you repeat it.
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Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #559
579. Hmmm is it just me or tomee seem a bit extreme?
Perhaps a bit too extreme... if you know what I mean.
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Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #579
592. It's not you...
;)
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Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #319
540. LoL nice cartoon man...
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Beel2112 Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #540
561. Ill Will Press!
Edited on Mon Apr-25-05 05:31 PM by Beel2112
Ill Will Press is hilarious; you can find the archive here:

http://www.illwillpress.com/vault.html

"Fatkins Diet" and "Tech Support" are hilarious too. :hi:
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #146
187. If speaking up against the handcuffing of a 5-yr-old
who was SITTING CALMLY AT THE TABLE at the time she was handcuffed costs us votes than the situation is beyond despair.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #187
210. she only sat her ass down when she saw the police coming. I
wish you could put your child in the same class as this kid. then we could see just how you would respond. I betting that a lot of folks that are against the handcuffs would change their tune.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #210
220. If my kid were in the class, I still wouldn't think it justified to
handcuff a five year old. It's pretty basic. She was calm without handcuffs and she freaked out when they put them on. Wow. Problem solved. :eyes:
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #210
287. Unbelievable
In other words, it did not matter that the disruptive behavior had subsided by the time the cops arrived. She just had to be punished for her prior behavior. In your world, cops talking to the child patiently should never be the case, eh? Simply astounding.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #287
459. it did not subside by the time they arrived. she stopped because
they did arrive, which also proves her bad ass knows right from wrong. I agree with you guy's that the handcuff were extreme. but you can't spank kids anymore.

and let me say this, I've seen you guy's that believe in that "talk to junior" bullshit. those people that I've seen do that shit have some of the worse kids in the place. that shit does not work, and will never work.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #459
502. Her knowing right from
wrong is not the point here. I object to her being handcuffed and treated like a criminal. She was sitting in a chair behaving when they handcuffed her. That act was not necessary. Maybe you think it's OK to treat a child like that but many people strongly object. Children of that age are not expected to act like adults. They often behave inappropriately.

There was no loving behavior from the adults. Their actions just made everything worse. This is not the only child ever to have had a tantrum. My friends who are teachers see that kind of behavior a lot. They don't call the police and every one has expressed dismay over the way this child was treated.
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #502
512. oh man, what is wrong with folks. it is not ok for a child of any age
to act in her manner, period. it is not acceptable, in no way or form. I worry about many who want to write her behavior off as a tantrum, that was not a tantrum.

that child knows exactly what she can do and get away with, witness her becoming resonable once the police arrived. you just can not ignore her behavior and write it off as a child being a child. please I'm begging you to be resonable, and not just anti-estiblishment.
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Tomee450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #512
518. I am not suggesting
that her behavior was appropriate. Clearly it was not. I think she needs help. However, there still was no reason to put her in handcuffs. That was very damaging. I cannot understand why you cannot see that. She IS A FIVE YEAR OLD CHILD. Some children behave badly but you don't call the cops, you don't put them in handcuffs. There was no compassion for that child in that room. Just a lot of threatening adults. The situation was completely mishandled.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #518
556. But there was a VERY good reason to cuff her. The teachers were
forbidden to touch the child. They had no means at their disposal to get her to behave, rather than pose a distraction at best and a threat at worse to other kids.

So they followed their only available option - and an option the child's own mother has used: the police.

The police have more options than the teachers, but not many, and restraint is one of them. So they took the one option THEY had.
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