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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 08:56 PM
Original message
Iraq War Continues To Divide American Views (CBS poll)
(Angus Reid Global Scan) – Adults in the United States are split over the rationale to launch military action against Iraq, according to a poll by CBS News. 48 per cent of respondents believe the U.S. should have stayed out, while 47 per cent say the war was the right thing to do. <snip>

Polling Data

Looking back, do you think the United States did the right thing in taking military action against Iraq, or should the U.S. have stayed out?

Apr. 2005 Feb. 2005

Right thing 47% 46%
Stay out 48% 50%
Don’t know 5% 4%

How would you say things are going for the U.S. in its efforts to bring stability and order to Iraq? Would you say things are going very well, somewhat well, somewhat badly, or very badly?

Apr. 2005 Feb. 2005

Very well 7% 10%
Somewhat well 41% 43%
Somewhat badly 32% 29%
Very badly 18% 18%

Source: CBS News
Methodology: Telephone interviews to 1,149 American adults, conducted from Apr. 13 to Apr. 16, 2005. Margin of error is 3 per cent.

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewItem&itemID=6849


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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. strategy for peace movement ... proposed new organization to discuss


A national door-to-door canvassing organization(like Greenpeace or PIRG)opposing militarism in the US generally and the war in Iraq in particular, one that mobilizes and informs its mass membership, is an idea that I have been putting forward extensively, wherever I could. Indeed, if you have places to post the idea you could suggest them and/or post the item yourself: There needs to be a mass organization that canvasses door to door for funds and members and an organization of the opposition to this war and the imperialism it embodies in Congress into a vocal caucus. There also needs to be a mass fundraising effort to match the kind of funds that antiwar 527s spent during the election campaign in a national advertising campaign on the issues and for active support. Without the elections as an excuse, the mobilization should be much larger. It takes a higher not a lower degree of initiative in off-election years to mobilize against a long drawn-out war like this one. The longer there fails to be the kind of effort that I have suggested, the harder it will be to get the public excited about the issue, with the Iraq war becoming for most Americans something more like a tragic background noise that is tuned out rather than an urgency that must be actively opposed.

I would imagine that the organization would have the following features. By canvassing door to door,one could build up a truly mass organization, with millions of dues-paying members opposed to the Iraq war and to a broader range of militarism concerns included in the organization's principles of unity and officially endorsed positions. Such an organization could do many things that are not done as effectively as possible today.

First, it will be easier to mobilize huge numbers to the rallies now organized, although the current focus on numbers in this vein could also be transcended, by building a deeper movement with more mainstream impact. It would also be possible to link up with major progressive think tanks, and finance/provide a clearinghouse for accurate and intelligently formulated material for the organization's members and for the peace movement as a whole.

A connected idea is to get the truly strong peace movement oriented members of Congress (eg progressives who not only oppose Iraq but the Kosovo War as well) into a 'peace caucus' which could be a focal point for peace politics and advocacy in the Congress, as well as a power link for the organization, which I suppose could be called "PeaceAmerica" or something like that. The peace movement, unlike the anti-Vietnam war movement, could be sustained by a continuing, mass-scale, membership organization opposed to imperialism even though probably not sufficiently "politically correct" for many tastes.

Such an organization would be in a position to form coalitions with antiwar concerns of mainstream religious organizations as well as politicians, as discussed. This broad antiwar coalition would be in a position to bring issues to the UN, sponsored by friendly members of the General Assembly. (I think that there needs to be a GA special session on the Iraq war, in a venue where the US has no veto power, possibly trying to open some kind of negotiating channel and recognition of the political forces actively fighting the US occupation of Iraq.

The organization, for strategic and tactical reasons (not rejecting the view from the South Africa national liberation movement that "nonviolence is a tactic and not a religion") at the very least,must be committed in its own actions and endorsements to nonviolence against any persons. It should also take a vocal and principled stance against deliberate violence directed at innocents. It is important to be careful about defining this whole issue, so that so-called "violence against property" issues are addressed adroitly (against Earthfirst! type acts that can endanger people). It is also important not to have people in the leadership who would divide the movement by categorically condemning all those outside the organization in the movement who are more militant. This issue isdiscussed at some length because it is potentially divisive and is one rock upon which such mass organizing efforts could founder.

A second issue is inclusion in the statement of principles such notions as not treating civilian victims of 9-11 as rightly killed, or recognizing that terrorism (of the type that the "war against terrorism" is supposedly confronting) as well as imperialism are to be opposed. This must be an organization that, without diluting progressive content, can appeal to mainstream America. A ban on all expression or practice of bigotry by the organization addresses another area of potential political hazard.

The organization would have a paid staff once it gets off the ground, including paid canvassers, like Greenpeace or PIRG, but with a peace movement focus -- confronting head-on the controversial issue of calling for an end to the US-led war in Iraq. It would probably not be able to raise money as easily as these others for reasons of the controversiality, but the pressures to keep the movement tied to political realism and mass appeal would be there, to the detriment of sectarians and others who would weaken the antiwar movement in pursuit of their own tiny organizations' aims (like the PL in sds). The issue of how broad to make the organizations' demands and positions would be perennial.

I believe this is the best way to build a peace movement that is geared to success in the political circumstances of the US.

RSVP CLOUDY
I will try to post this later in other venues so that it can be fully vetted

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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. The idea of "Peace America" seems like at good one...
I think many would tar it as genocide enablers and "terrorist" appeasers.

I would sign up but it would have to oppose war.
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Peace America a strategy to mobilize mainstream opposition to Iraq etc
The organization would be opposed to militarism, would never be in a position (hopefully) of ever ENDORSING any war, would contain many pacifists, but to appeal to mass of Americans ideas like pacifism like vegetarianism cannot be part of principles of unity of any organization that hopes to have many more millions of Americans than the total number of true pacifists sign up. The goal is EFFECTIVENESS.

confession: I am not an ideological pacifist (eg WWII, struggle against apartheid etc). But US imperialism needs to be opposed and not by someone, like the Democrats, advocating, in essence, "smarter" imperialism. Wars like Yugoslavia were imperialist too, even though not quite as foolhardy as Iraq.

Let's see how many other progressives can get together on this idea, and form some sort of online group.

CLOUDY
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think poll is wrong... I believe Bush rating is much lower.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-20-05 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Split?! That's not a split!
Per the most recent election that's just barely this side of a mandate for the anti-warriors!!
:woohoo:
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wellst0nev0ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. Translation, 50% Of Americans Want Saddam In Power
damn saddamites :sarcasm:
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. Our side lacks a rational, cohesive argument for withdrawal.
Pacifism won't get it. Opposing "violence" against others won't fly.

Americans are practical people. They believe violence is sometimes necessary in a world tainted with evil. WWII is the perfect example.

Prior to the Iraqi voting sham (we know it's a sham, but we can't prove it, and the rest of the country has swallowed it), we had the Vietnam quagmire argument.

Now the Bushies have created a situation where that no longer is persuasive, since people believe we're on the verge of succeeding in implementing a democracy in Iraq. And of course, they have deluded themselves into either believing that's why we went in there to begin with, or this is some sort of a benevolent, second-best foreordained by YouKnowWho.

So the rationale for exiting now is missing.

But the emotional impulse for exiting now is widespread. If only we could capitalize on that with a persuasive logical argument, we could turn it into a movement.
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cloudythescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. WTF?
You can't find a rationale for pulling out of a quagmire like Iraq? OOOOH boy! How about -- the VAST majority of Iraqis want us out. The whole war was not about opposing terrorism (Dick Clarke exposed not only that it would make terrorism worse, but that -- in that no doubt dismissed by the critic above as mere propaganda documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 -- Bush on SEPT 12 was only asking for links of 9-11 to Iraq, not about other countries or EVEN ABOUT AL QAEDA. So terrorism was a pretext literally FROM DAY ONE.

We/re there for the control of oil when we should be spending the three hundred plus billion and counting (in real costs not the Cong Budget office figures, like lifetime commitments to health care, disability and pensions and much more) on metallic hydride automotive vehicles (in operation now for 20 years) solar voltaic and thermal, wind and conservation.

There's no way we will ever be able to have a permanently stable and democratic Iraq TO CONFORM TO THIS AGENDA. A DEMOCRATIC IRAQ WANTS US OUT, so we have a puppet government that restricts who can run and has virtually NO representation from the Sunnis as a group.

It is a travesty for many more reasons, and yes, there ARE exit strategies (we should start with a UN General Assembly Special Session on Iraq THIS OCTOBER). But not space to outline them all here.

CLOUDY
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
9. that 47% represents ameriKan tv "news" watchers
I am sure most of them get their information from faux. It really is hopeless. :(
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DrDebug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's not really hopeless
Because the number of people who start to realize that it is an wrong war is starting to increase. Month by month, year by year the discontent is growing. It may be hard that it takes this long, but the shift will continue to grow until there is finally a breaking point.

It's sad that it takes another 4 years, but the amount of lies and deceptions are such that those who feel that they are invulnerable and can get away with anything will eventually get their moment of accountability.

Just look what happened yesterday. Berlusconi didn't make it even though he controls Italy in more ways than one. Gutierrez have to run and he was caught even though he thought that he was untouchable.

The sad point is that these people will no learn. They don't have that ability, but sooner or later their empire comes crashing down...
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-21-05 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. The U.S. Military will stay in Iraq for many years and..
the majority of Dems in congress will vote for funds to keep them there.
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