Germany's Ratzinger is new pope

[UCLA Dem]

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Germany was elected the 265th pontiff today by the College of Cardinals. He was announced as tens of thousands of people cheered in St. Peter's Square. Ratzinger has chosen the name Benedict XVI, the Vatican announced. The announcement came shortly after white smoke rose from the Vatican chimney and bells rang to announce that a new pope had been selected.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/19/pope.tuesday...

[Don Claybrook]

1. Oh goody. Another neocon in power

Will any US Catholics leave the church over this?

[nashville_brook]

16. surely there are some who will wake up to this

"the deep moral sickness" of europe was a fave topic for ratzy and jp2. we are in for one hell of a ride. keep your eye out for commentary on how SOON they arrived at this decision. it's about money and power -- the blood cult wing of the theocrats is now in power in catholicism as well as protestantism. this is frightening in the extreme, but not surprising. those of us who left in the 80s over jp2's siding with latin american dictators over their own preists, expected this.

the church has thrown down the gauntlet. their priority is absolute power. "holy war." same old song and dance -- i don't mean that to sound defeatist. i think we can at least take some time right now to examine the history of the catholic church in world war. how did they position? who went awol -- how to harness the change to build the people's power. reading list, anyone?

[Delphinus]

57. This makes me ask ...

where does Opus Dei fit in with the new guy? If you're talking money and power, makes me think OD would be right there with them, co-ruling.

[noonwitch]

26. Did you expect a liberal to be elected?

Expecting a liberal pope is like expecting a black King of England.

I'm glad I'm a protestant, and don't have to view the words of the pope as the words of God. It leaves me free to respect men like JPII, even though I disagree with some of his beliefs.

I was expecting Ratzinger to be the next pope. He's in a position in which makes for an easy transition.

Who's got images of Mel Brooks as Torqemada? Ratzinger ran whatever they call the Inquisition these days, so it's fitting to post those images now!

[w4rma]

259. Didn't expect a pope who supported Hitler and the Holocaust. (nt)

[Henny Penny]

286. bad as he is....

he did neither.

[w4rma]

290. Bad as he is, he actually did. He was a Nazi Youth while Hitler was in

power. This is documented and noone disputes this.

And you can tell, just by taking a good look at what he's done while in the Catholic church with his authoritarian positions, that he *still* supports that pro-Nazi agenda.

[Henny Penny]

295. being compelled to join the Hitler youth does NOT equate

with supporting Hitler, or the holocaust.

It was made compulsory to join in 1941, Ratzinger joined just after this when he was 14.

[PaulaFarrell]

309. That's not really fair

Being in the Hitler Youth was compulsory in Germany at that time. He was also in the military but deserted in 1944. Criticise for what he's done since if you want- that would be fair, but to drag that up is just irrelevant.

[Voltaire99]

277. Frankly, I expected it would be Ratzo.

A reactionary institution that finds itself in extremis, hemorrhaging money in payments to settle lawsuits? That has been held up to the entire planet as a model of scandalousness in its indulgence of pedophilia?

With its back to the wall, Catholicism did what any threatened beast would do: it turned to snarl.

As one who has been reading about Ratzo for years, I also predicted that he would be just the type to claw his way to the top.

Understandable, yes. Predictable, yes. Disgusting? Oh, yes.

[ReadTomPaine]

27. So fitting this is the first response.

Yes indeed, here we are again.

[LostinVA]

31. Yes... my very conservative father already emailed me

He is havin g a fit! I was like, I told you so! My mom hasn't been to church in years because of how conservative the Church has gotten... she's looking into the Unitarian Church. Yay!

[Up2Late]

53. My mom just joined the Episcopal Church, she likes it a lot

They consider themselves Catholic, Just not Roman Catholic.

[LostinVA]

67. Yes, good "Anglo Catholics"

I've been to Episcopal masses that were way "higher" than any RC mass I've ever been to!

[kittycat1164]

132. just out of curiousity.....

Why won't your father like Ratzinger since he's conservative?

[politicat]

The American Catholic Church is not too bad.

Had I had access to them when my faith was faltering, I might still have it. No going back though.

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/4136/

[politicat]

211. The American Catholic Church is not too bad.

Had I had access to them when my faith was faltering, I might still have it. No going back though.

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/4136/

[JohnnyBoots]

35. Yeah, how did they get the #1 draft pick, no surprise they spent

it on a former Hitler Youth, who is now supposedly "Infallible." He should get a huge signing bonus. Who is the best player left on the board for us?

[Up2Late]

37. I tell you for sure, this isn't going to bring any back

This is BS. Maybe we'll get lucky he will "die in his sleep" like our 33 day "Progressive Pope" John Paul 1st, did.


Yes, I'm an Ex-Catholic, and now I plan on staying that way.

[JohnnyBoots]

45. I prefer, "Collapsed Catholic."

[Seabiscuit]

152. I think of myself as a "Renegade Catholic". My wife...

thinks of herself as a "Catholic on permanent vacation".

We resigned from the Catholic Church this winter after all the pro-Bush political crapola the Vatican spewed during our 2004 Presidential elections, their vocal pro-Bush, anti-gay-American-marriage crapola, the American bishop (s?) who refused John Kerry communion for his support of the law of Roe v. Wade, the San Diego bishop's refusal to give a gay nightclub owner a Catholic burial, and the Tom Delayish crapola the Vatican publicly spewed about the Terri Schiavo fiasco. The Vatican has become an arm of the neo-con/fundie movement in Amerika because it too has always been obsessed with power, and they see that right now that's where the power is.

We're Da Vinci Code enthusiasts now. Non-affiliated, non-denominational spiritual deists, perhaps. We don't need no f'in churches to find our way through this life and into the next.

[tallahasseedem]

182. Same here...

I left for the very same reasons. I feel so liberated now.

[Seabiscuit]

188. Kind of like an ephiphany, huh?

Like free spirits floating through the air on a clear day, with a new and unclouded perspective.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

320. The Da Vinci Code is fiction.

Hate to burst your bubble.
Duckie

[Laurab]

227. I've called myself a "recovering Catholic"

for years. Ever since I stopped believing in a punishing God, and began believing in a kinder, forgiving God. The church has struck me for years as being more a business than a church, and a big business at that.

I don't need to belong to any organized religion to think of myself as Christian.

[evlbstrd]

256. I like Recovering Catholic.

Maybe there ought to be a twelve step program.

[Seabiscuit]

307. I took the one-step program. One giant step forward and out of the church

[calimary]

111. Funny, I just turned to my husband and said "well, looks like I won't be

breaking any land speed records hurrying back to regular Mass on Sundays."

Sigh...

I knew better than to hope for any real change, but shit -

Oh well...

Okay, ladies, let's all of us just move to the back of the bus like nice little submissive Stepforders.

I guess I can take comfort that at least the guy from Vienna, supposedly on the PNAC wish list, wasn't selected.

Looks like I'm with you, Up2Late. I'm not precisely an Ex-Catholic, but I'm as close as you can get without actually severing ties. It's a glum day for Catholicism. And they WILL indeed see more American Catholics falling away. They WILL indeed see their donation money continuing to dry up. When I'm not at Mass, I'm not putting anything into the collection plate. And it isn't just me. It was a CNN report I saw a few days ago that indicated the largest share of donations to the Catholic Church comes from America. And America's where they CANNOT afford to see more Catholics alienated. But that's what WILL happen. Mike Barnicle will look back on the recent past and wish for the days when his church was lucky enough to be one-third full.

[Demit]

88. If I could re-leave the Church, I would. :(

[Up2Late]

115. I wonder if all us un-officially ex-Catholics COULD make it Official

by sending a letter describing our disgust with this choice.

[Zhade]

193. That's actually an excellent idea.

They don't care, but the numbers should be presented, so those who do care will see the impact.

I urge all Catholics, former and not, who are uncomfortable with the Vatican's choice to do this.

[muz]

282. heh - inverse excommunication

[mom cat]

314. Welcome to DU muz.

[HardElection]

133. Don't worry we'll have another chance for another pope

...soon ...unless he lives to be 90

[mom cat]

316. or 100. Only the good die young.

In the mean time, he could issue some nasty encylicals under the guise of papal infalibility. Perhaps that would be the needed death blow to an institutional heirarchy that valuesdomination over liberation. This could be their downfall.

[Scairp]

142. One thing is for sure

Catholic women will be waiting that much longer for a break on birth control. It's going to take a moderate pope to give on that point, and Ratzinger is about as moderate as the Shrub.

[regnaD kciN]

200. Even worse...

...Ratzinger is on record as saying that Humanae Vitae, the anti-contraception encyclical, was an exercise in Papal Infallibility, even though the Pope who issued it denied it that status. As a mere single cardinal among many, his opinion could be dismissed...but now, he can (and I believe will) raise it to infallible status with the stroke of a pen.

That means that it doesn't matter how moderate or even liberal a future pontiff may be -- no one on earth can change an infallible proclamation, as it is seen to have come directly from God.

That means that a thousand, or even a million, years from now (should humankind and Roman Catholicism last that long) whoever was Pope would still be bound to obey the ruling that the use of artificial contraception is never to be permitted. There would be no way to get around it, ever.

[Zynx]

165. Neo-con is a foreign policy description. Ratzinger is not a neo-con.

[Don Claybrook]

216. tell it to the newspapers. He's a neo-con n/t

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Don Claybrook]

245. Save it for someone else, Jesus

The next time I need definition help from you, I'll let you know. He's a motherfucking neo-conservative piece of shit. That will be all, Jesus. Dismissed.

[Don Claybrook]

246. Hey, JC: tell me again how stupid I look

Golly, it's just no fun at all to hear Jesus tell me how stupid I look for repeating something that's been said many hundreds of times in the press. But I'm just going to turn the other cheek. I'd never consider calling you an uninformed fuckwit who could be easily swatted down with 2 minutes of Googling. It wouldn't be very Christian of me. So instead, I just wanted to extend the offer for you to be magnanimous in admitting how wrong you are about this neo-conservative former Nazi piece of shit.

Here are a few citations for you. Lots more are available from your friendly local search engine.

Have a great Galilee day.

"This is the framework for the neoconservative party whose beacon is Ratzinger."
http://www.insidethevatican.com/newsflash-apr14-05-3.ht...

-------

"His neoconservative thrust has run into resistance within the Church. The reportedly harsh discussions at the conclave to select a new pope have been testimony to that, Vatican sources say."
http://www.ipsnews.org/new_nota.asp?idnews=28311

---------


"JOSEPH RATZINGER. A German, he was the pillar of doctrine during the pontificate of John Paul II, especially toward the very end. In spite of the fact that he is 78 years old, there would be nothing of the short-term papacy about his election: the scenario he has designated for the Church during the following decades is almost revolutionary, and has won him respect and agreement from beyond the neocon cardinals closest to him, but also strong resistance."
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-religion/1383760/posts

-----------

But Cardinal Ratzinger, chief of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is unpopular with large sections of the Church for his antimodernist positions and for methodically persecuting and silencing dissenters.

His neoconservative thrust has run into resistance within the Church. The reportedly harsh discussions at the conclave to select a new pope have been testimony to that, Vatican sources say.
http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=28311

[Name removed]

247. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Don Claybrook]

248. My wife is right here

And she thinks as much of you as I do. I hope I one day get the chance to tell you in very clear language just what I think of you and your hateful words.

Your reading comprehension seems to be on a par with your compassionate Catholocism.

The new pope is most certainly a neoconservative. You've done nothing to dissuade anyone of that notion, and you cannot. He's a vile man, and he's aided and abetted the "bad guys" his entire life, from Adolph Hitler to George W Bush. So go right ahead and defend this miserable, vile, hateful human being, with your miserable, vile, hateful obsequiousness.

Oh, and, why are you here? At this progressive website, I mean? Shouldn't you be out boiling heretics alive, or somesuch?

[Don Claybrook]

249. Self-edited

Self-edited, because some good moderator already took care of the issue.

[ekwhite]

252. No, he's not a neocon

More like a Neo-nazi. Or is that a paleonazi?

[arnieheff]

271. He Makes Neo-con Sound Liberal

He already meddled in US politics when he sent the memo to US Cardinals stating that any politician who supports abortion should not receive communion.

[arnieheff]

270. Catholics Are Fleeing

He will probably be the toughest and least flexible pope ever.

[Pachamama]

275. I already had been "slipping" from the Church's grasp...now I'm gone.

I had actually been thinking that with kids now etc. that my husband and I might start going to Church and introducing the kids to the Church. Not now...no way am I going to have my daughters being indoctrinated with Pope Rightwinger's Dogma...

I can say that this selection turns me away from them now...I thought highly of John Paul II, even though I didn't agree on everything, but from all I understand, Ratzinger was a driving force in the influence of the former Pontiff's hard right on certain issues...guess you could say this guy Ratzinger makes JP II look liberal....

[Habibi]

2. He's 78

At least he won't be around for an entire generation.

[ReadTomPaine]

32. Thin broth, this was a setback for progressives everywhere.

Not just Catholics. Let's not be naive, this wasn't good.

[Zynx]

42. There are no "progressive" Cardinals with a shot of being elected

At least, not any that we would consider "liberals" by our standards.

The Church is morally hard right and will always remain so. That's not going to change. They're also anti-war, anti-death penalty and economically very far left - that won't change either. One pope can't change these positions and I'm not sure five in a row could either.

But if you want more "liberal" Cardinals, this is actually better than John Paul II was because he won't be around long enough to appoint that many Cardinals.

[ReadTomPaine]

55. Good points, but by all accounts he was the worse of the lot. n/t

[JoFerret]

215. So economically far left that

...they are giving all their wealth to the poor.
(Not neo-cons but THEO-cons).

[Henny Penny]

287. agree 100%

Even if you sre not catholic, the impact this will have on issues like aids in the 3rd World, the role of women, attitudes to gays, the rights of women etc can only be bad.

Another dark day for libruls.

[SharonRB]

84. My thoughts exactly.

I'm Jewish, so it doesn't really affect me personally, but I know how much this can affect world affairs and it's not a very good sign. Not that I would wish anyone dead (well, almost anyone), but he certainly won't be around as long as JPII, for whom I had a lot of respect.

[4_Legs_Good]

93. It's a sad day when the best aspect of a new pope is that he's likely to

die soon.



david

[ClintonTyree]

205. Huh...

they'll keep Ratzy on life support for decades, he'll never want to give up the reins of power.

[Writer]

213. That was my first thought...

which is why I think his appointment more was a political statement by the church than a choice of a sound papal leader.

Writer.

[demo dutch]

3. Former Hitler youth... here's the link

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00...

His word against that of his proponents

[dhinojosa]

9. Oh c'mon Pope Panzer SS won't be that bad...

I don't know why people like to toy with right wing, almost fascist, side of life.

[UCLA Dem]

22. Very disturbing. The Catholics had a chance to really move forward.

Although JP II was conservative in many ways, he was also very progressive on many human rights issues. This is very sad indeed.

[Zynx]

30. Why? Ratzinger might as well have taken John Paul III as his name

I would not expect much functional difference between him and JPII, except that Ratzinger will probably be much more forceful in actually acting on things because he is in good health.

[ReadTomPaine]

47. But he didn't. The fact that he took "Benedict" signals he intends..

to be even more conservative than his predecessor. He started moving rightward with the very first moments of his Papacy.

[LostinVA]

54. Exactly -- that's the first thing I thought of when I saw what name

He chose...

[President Jesus]

224. Ridiculous. Benedict XV was very progressive and an 'enemy' to ...

...arch-conservatives, who by the way made John Paul II look like Abbie Hoffman.

[ReadTomPaine]

238. "made John Paul II look like Abbie Hoffman"

Differences aside, that was quite funny I referenced him myself recently. I hope you are right, but I fear you are wrong.

[Rich Hunt]

265. interesting choice

I mean, we all know about the Piuses, don't we?

[demo dutch]

77. He practially endorsed GW Bush as the next great president

don't you all remember?

[saigon68]

220. He Bent over and serviced the CHIMPANZEE

YES I REMEMBER THAT.

It was disgusting.

[uncertainty1999]

263. Regular Catholics never had a chance ....

... with those 150 or so cardinals making the decision.

[Patiod]

46. OK, I'm pissed about this too, but the Nazi thing is thin

If you read the article, he only joined after it was made compulsory, his father worked against the Nazis (to the point that he had to move frequently) and as a 14-year-old kid, he had a peripheral role in the war.

I would prefer to beat him up on his right-wing doctrine and embrace of the word "fundamentalist" rather than a past that I can't say I could have avoided myself if I were 14 and living in a fascist state.

[mountainvue]

72. German U boat commander

Wolf Blitzer just said his (Benedict's) father was a Nazi on CNN.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

137. Interesting....I wonder which version is correct?

[jsw_81]

82. Funny, people from his village say he could have easily avoided service

I wonder how many American planes his anti-aircraft gun shot down.

[ClintonTyree]

212. He said his anti-aircraft gun, "wasn't even loaded"...

because he had an infected finger. Sounds like we've got another "everybody's responsible but me" type in power.

[demo dutch]

170. Ok fair enough, but they didn't have to make him Pope but

then again they brought Cardinal Law to the Vatican and gave him a cushy job and let him perform the mass. Talk about thumbing your nose to the people!

[arnieheff]

273. Wasn't Joining the Hitler Youth Thing Voluntary?

I thought the kids had a choice. Most older Germans have claim they had no choice, which gives them an "out". Why were a majority of Germans against his being Pope in all the polls conducted recently?

[Mondon]

300. Compulsory by 1936

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

[Vitruvius]

75. John Paul II was in the Polish resistance during WWII; Ratzinger was in

the Hitler Youth. 'Nuff said.

[JVS]

255. Actually JP was not in the resistance

He just was illegally studying to be a priest.

[barb162]

122. he joined when it was made compulsory

[bettyellen]

209. nothing in this life is compulsory. man has free will, doesn't he?

[President Jesus]

225. he was like 12 years old. Do your kids have outright free will?

[bettyellen]

266. you assume i have kids, LOL!!!

i heard 14, and that he denies it. and if he doesn't own up to it, that does make it a lot worse.

[barb162]

254. what if they threatened his parents...you know how those Nazis

were in those days

[bettyellen]

267. other people escaped, i don't blame him as much for taking part as i do

for his trying to hide the truth about it though. that irks me, the denial.

[Henny Penny]

288. can you post a link to the denial?

[arnieheff]

276. Ratzinger Hides Behind the Argument

He hides behind the argument that he did not have a free will when he was 15, 16 and 17. I bet he could have had a choice if he wanted to. Others did.

[arnieheff]

274. That's What He Says

But his extreme right wing ideology tells me that he was quite suitable to the Fascist machine of World War II. Not very easy to teach an old dog new tricks.

[SKKY]

171. So, what you're saying is, a man can't change?

Are we beyond at least giving someone the benefit of the doubt? That's what Republicans do, not Democrats.

[demo dutch]

181. That's not the point! Of course people can change.. but they didn't

have to make him Pope! Also thumbed their nose against the sex abuse victims because it was Ratzinger who made it possible for Carinal Law to get the cushy job at he vatican, yet he speaks of the "filth" inside the church but does nothing!

[Zhade]

196. Sure, people can change.

I'm not convinced Ratzinger has, though. That's the difference.

[arnieheff]

279. You Can't Teach Old Dogs New Tricks

If he was an ordinary citizen, then that would be fine. But, his behavior and actions as a Cardinal make him appear to have many of the traits that would have made him a very attractive candidate for the Nazi Party. With Pope John's blessings as his closest confidente, Ratzinger meddled in our US elections by sending out a memo to our cardinals that they should not give communion to any politician who supports abortion. Why do you think George Bush loved Pope John so much? I bet he will be crazy about this Pope who helped to elect him.

[Mondon]

301. Careful, Sen. Byrd would disagree

And he joined the KKK when it was NOT compulsory.

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Art_from_Ark]

296. Very witty poem

"Saint Ratty"

[Mondon]

299. HY membership was compulsory by the time he was ten

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

[demforever]

4. Leaving the church

I already sent an e-mail to my husband saying that I will be attending the episcopal church on Sunday. I am deeply disappointed with the selection of Joseph Ratzinger.

[JerseygirlCT]

10. I think you'll be comfortable there

I have been.

[callous taoboy]

110. I no longer attend church or subscribe to a deity, but

the Episcopal church was pretty sweet when I attended as a youth. Episcopalians seem to be a level-headed lot.

[JerseygirlCT]

236. Some are, some aren't

but that's sort of the point -- there's a lot of room for all sorts of opinions. Most of the time, people manage to come together, accepting differences. I like that.

[ronnykmarshall]

14. I am so sad for you.

I'm not Catholic, but when I do go to church it's always been to catholic church's so I feel close to the church.

This is really sad.

[Tippy]

15. I am sorry you feel this way

I have been a Catholic all my life 60 plus years I would never leave my Church because of one person...

[Midlodemocrat]

17. Me either.

I will never leave my church because of the actions of man.

[expatriot]

64. But God chooses the Pope according to Church doctrine....

The Succession of leading the Church, from Jesus to Peter, etc.

[Maeve]

100. No--here's what Ratzinger himself said about that

"It is wrong to say that the Holy Spirit elects the pope because there have been popes the Holy Spirit would never elect."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-nws-greeley1...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

138. He must have been referring to himself when he said that.

[AngryOldDem]

73. I agree

But still, this appointment deeply saddens and concerns me. It is a shot across the bow to American Catholics, and suggests that in a time when the Church needs to be constructively addressing many issues and working on unity with the laity, it's going to be the conservative status quo.

I am hoping that the curia is seeing Ratizinger as a caretaker -- but we all know what happened the last time a caretaker was in the chair. We could be seeing the start of a major reversal of Vatican II here. I hope I'm not overstating my concerns, but this is one Catholic who is not overjoyed at the pontificate of Benedict XVI.

[ngGale]

214. And I...am a Vatican II convert who...

ran into the church with their arms wide open. Taught by the most wonderful, liberal Sister who took pride in not having to wear a habit. Whose last words to me, "never forget YOU ARE a product of Vatican II." My heart is broken, I see Vatican II null and void and me with it. <very disappointed crying Catholic>

[renaissanceguy]

28. Why not?! He's the leader of your church, and if you are unhappy

with your leadership, you should leave. Why just sit there and take all their nonsense? There are pleny of nicer churches out there. And I got news for you--it doesn't matter which one of them you go to to get to heaven. The Catholic church is primitive and does not serve our modern lives.
http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[Rich Hunt]

112. i don't understand

How exactly do you know how 'nice' the person's particular church is?

Have you attended mass there? Are you taking a survey on the relative 'niceness' of various Catholic parishes, and how well they serve their parishioners?

[renaissanceguy]

159. It's the umbrella Church i'm talking about.

And by being under that umbrella, the little churches have to follow what the big Church says.

[Stuckinthebush]

44. Being true to yourself...

is much more important than being true to an organization.

[LostinVA]

49. But it's not one person to us

I left the Church about ten years ago, because of the actions of hundreds of men, and how they treated me as a woman. How they preached and wrote doctrine, etc. against ME. I didn;'t leave the Church, it left me. If it was one person, I wouldn't have left. It was many. And since I have left, it's gotten so much worse, calling gay people "evil," refusing to even acknowledge condoms help in stopping AIDS. Sticking to these crazy, antiquated ideas while millions die. And, we were very active in the Church. I even taught CCD for many years.

It's absolutely your choice to stay, and there is absolutely nothing wrong in your choice -- it's the best for you. But leaving was the best thing for me and my spiritual life, and for the poster, too.

Better she leaves the Church than leaves God.

[catbert836]

125. Seconded

I won't let the fundies push me out of my church. Sooner or later, they're going to have to face the fact that we no longer are in the Middle Ages. I think Benedict XVI is the last gasp of that mentality.

[youspeakmylanguage]

148. I thought you weren't required to believe everything the pope believes...

I thought you were only required to believe church dogma. Isn't that why catholics can use birth control?

I'm a third-generation atheist, and everything I learned about christianity I learned from "The Last Temptation of Christ". You could say at the very least I'm uninformed.

[demo dutch]

183. It's not one person it's the system! Look who they choose!

He was the head of the Dept. of Inquisition. The Vatican does the world no favor with this reactionery Pope. By choosing this man they thumb their nose at sex abuse victims, victims dying of aids, women, children, gays etc.!

Besides you don't need a church to feel connected to God and be spiritual. In my view the "church" as an institution has absolutely nothing to do with being a Christian in the truest sense of the word. Last time I looked in the bible I didn't read anything about all the inhumane policies of this church that have caused so much suffering in the world. The RCC took Christianity and made it into a religion for the priviledged, (only Catholics go to heaven didn't you know!)and created a church of exclusion across the board.

[elcondor]

23. If I hadn't already left the Church ...

I would over this news. I knew Catholism wasn't for me a few years ago and over time admitted to myself that I wasn't a Christian.

I'm very sorry that you have to leave over this though. I'm sure you are not alone in this, especially in the U.S.

[renaissanceguy]

25. You might want to try the United Church of Christ.

They're very progressive and very welcoming.

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[Sinistrous]

38. I envy you.

I wish now that I had not left the RC some years ago, so that I could leave now in protest to this worst of all possible choices for pope.

[hecate77]

40. I left long ago after Pius XII's work was reversed

I had been very hopeful after those years in the 60s that the church was moving into the future, but Paul VI and then JP II moved it back to the 16th century and now this one will likely move it back to the 8th. If only they would move it back to the 0th century and start up with the love everyone, no killing theme again!

But, I cannot abide a church or belief system where women are 4th class citizens, ranking distantly behind fetuses and sperm.

I no longer follow any Christian religion, but my current beliefs are completely consistent with what I believe were the actual teachings of JC, namely, love, love, love.

[Dave Sund]

63. Er, you mean John XXIII?

Because Pius XII was Hitler's Pope.

[LostinVA]

68. Beat me to it!

[hecate77]

90. Been a long time, got things mixed up.

[Az_lefty]

56. Yep, I'm looking at the Episcopal church too.

I attended one of the Easter services there and it was wonderful.

[K8-EEE]

153. I left after the election.....after 44 years

I got lots of positive things (including an education where, despite the stereotypes, you are really pushed to THINK!) from being a Catholic and there are some great people IN the Church but the whole organization of it has just become about protecting and consolidating wealth and the status quo.

I would only go to a Church that respected individuals rights re: sexual orientation, reproductive freedom etc. I just went, this Church is too GWB for me, buh bye.

[regnaD kciN]

203. Where do you live?

PM me. I might know a good parish to recommend.

[smoogatz]

5. Not exactly the guy to sieze the imaginations

of a generation of young Catholics in the Americas and Africa. I guess he's kind of the interim Pope, being 78 and all.

[Broken Acorn]

6. Welcome to Bizarro World

Well,

I'm sure the shrub loved this selection.

[yorkiemommie1]

151. we're almost back in the Middle Ages

all the main players are in place.

[JerseygirlCT]

7. This is very sad news, indeed, for the Catholic church.

Once again, the forces of evil triumph. May it be a short-lived triumph, and only serve to alert people to the danger we face.

This will be an enormous step backwards for the RCC. How very sad I am for my Catholic family and friends.

[Renew Deal]

8. Wikipedia on popes Benedict 14, 15 and 16 (Ratzinger).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XIV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

[dhinojosa]

12. It's stuck.....

too many users

[bklyncowgirl]

48. Benedict the XV--not a bad guy.

Tried to broker a peace treaty and urged humanitarian efforts during World War I. Was a moderate on doctrinal issues.

Benedict the XIV best known for cracking down on missionary priests who tried to adopt native beliefs to Catholic formats.

Let's hope he's thinking of emulating number 15.

[MaineDem]

11. Info on the last Pope Benedict...

(Giacomo della Chiesa) (1914-1922) Born Pegli, Italy, 1854; died Rome, Italy. Nuncio to Spain, privy chamberlain, Archbishop of Bologna, and cardinal, he was elected directly after the outbreak of the World War, and maintained a position of neutrality throughout. He sent a representative to each country to work for peace, and in 1917 delivered the Plea for Peace, which demanded a cessation of hostilities, a reduction of armaments, a guaranteed freedom of the seas, and international arbitration. President Wilson was the only ruler who answered him, declaring peace impossible, though he afterwards adopted most of Benedict's proposals for establishing peace. At the close of the war France and Spain resumed diplomatic relations with the Vatican, and Great Britain retained permanently the embassy she had established during the war. Benedict promulgated the new Code of Canon Law, established the Coptic College at Rome, enlarged the foreign mission field, and in his first Encyclical condemned errors in modern philosophical systems. He denounced the violation of Belgium and gave freely to the victims of the war, widows, orphans, and wounded, and established a bureau of communication for prisoners of war with their relatives.

From the http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd01188.htm

COuld the new Pope Benedict be another anti-war Pope???

[cyberpj]

13. This fix was in before JP died. Bush and Cheney are smiling today. eom.

[Zynx]

20. Since when is Ratzinger a neocon?

Ratzinger is economically to the left of anyone in the Democratic Party.

Sheesh, will people stop taking EVERYTHING as a sign of Evil Bush (TM)?

[renaissanceguy]

33. Then you'd be suggesting that Hitler was a left-winger.

Do you not recall his involvement with the Nazis?

http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.14744291

[Zynx]

59. Will people stop with the Nazi thing? It's basically garbage

You HAD to join the Hitler Youth if you were in Germany when he was a kid. It was not an optional activity - unless your parents wanted to get liquidated as subversive elements.

[bpilgrim]

62. it is part of his past

and he still is very conservative so it will be an issue for many people.

peace

[LostinVA]

76. This is not true

I know/knew (some are dead) several people who didn't join either the HJ or the Madchen Jung when they were children. Some were not overtly punished, but became pariahs. A lady I worked with a few years refused to join the MJ and had her head shorn in front of the class, and her mother was fired from her job. They went to live in the mountains of Bavaria in an old hunting lodge of her grandparents'. No running water or electric.

So, not everyone did join. But, if he did, I could excuse it if he acknowledged it. There are many people who were in the HJ who were basically brainwashed, or embraced the ideology, and thus never really left the HJ. JP II did alot to try to mend the rift between the RC and the Jewish community. This doesn't help.

[barb162]

124. thanks, this is exactly where I am coming from. Holding something

against a young person who was forced to join is just ridiculous
from the Times UK article below
"The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941. "

[Zhade]

198. Wait, is Ratzinger denying he was a member?

I agree that compulsory service then does not exactly damn him now, but only if he's acknowledged it and stated he would have liked to not have been a member.

[demo dutch]

94. Yes very well, but did they have to make that man "the Pope"!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

139. Sorry, but no, it's not "basically garbage". If you look closely at the..

...Hitler Youth indoctrination, I think you'll discover that it forms the bedrock of his current belief structure.

Quite a few German youths refused to join the Hitler Youth, and no, they weren't "liquidated" and neither were their families.

[BrightKnight]

180. “the enforcer”, “the panzer cardinal” and “God’s rottweiler”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00...

I find these nicknames troubling.

[seriousstan]

223. So tell me about the indoctrination of the KKK

and how that would effect a person's future as ....say a Senator. I don't recall mandatory membership in that organization.

I can't follow you in condemning a man for something he did in his distant past. I believe people can change.

Perhaps you shouldn't be so hard on the Pope or the Senator.

[Kelvin Mace]

149. Joey da Rat

Is an Opus Dei member, a VERY fascist organization. Was he forced to join Opu Dei?

[Zhade]

199. Who says he'd even HAVE to be forced?

The guy's quite in line with their conservative nature.

[GemMom]

156. Right on!

Joining the Hitler Youth was compulsory for German boys .... unless one was Jewish who were of course sent off to the concentration camps. Ratzinger is of the "vintage" where he had no choice at that age.

[TeeYiYi]

36. Someone helped . . .

JPII get to heaven prematurely just like they tried to help Victor Yushchenko.

TYY

[ananda]

18. Why...

.. are people cheering for ole Ratzo? He was a Nazi for God's sake. He also considers Protestants "heretics" and holds an extremely orthodox, reactionary position on so many issues.

It's back to the Middle Ages for the CC now..
.. and the Inquisition if Ratzy decides to fire clergy and excommunicate members.

Oh boy. What fun. Are hardline fundie Catholics salivating?

Sue

[Zynx]

24. If he hates fundie Protestants, that's a GOOD thing

That would be a good way to take a chunk out of the Religious Wrong Coalition.

[regnaD kciN]

206. No, it's the MAINSTREAM Protestants he despises...

I think we will see a continuation of an alarming trend of "unholy alliances" between Rome and the fundies, centered around legal action against abortion and homosexuality, to the exclusion of everything else.

A Rome-watcher whose opinion I respect said that this decision means that the RCC has decided to abandon Europe and most of the U.S., and concentrate its efforts on Africa and Latin America, which are more conservative and thus more likely to accept a move further toward traditionalism. That would also imply that much of the American RCC will be treated with "benign neglect," with more of a concentration on supporting Latino Catholics who will "move the Church to the right" here.

[fishwax]

305. I can see this putting chinks

in that unholy alliance. The fundies hate it when anyone talks about being saved by works or by the RCC, so I certainly hope there will be animosity there.

[demo dutch]

101. He might hate Protestants, but practically endorsed *

to the American Catholics!

[HamdenRice]

19. Fortunately he is a transitional pope who by mortality tables ...

probably won't last more than a few years. Besides being a Nazi, he hates liberation theology:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/19/pope.tuesday...

In the Vatican, he has been the driving force behind crackdowns on liberation theology, religious pluralism, challenges to traditional moral teachings on issues such as homosexuality, and dissent on such issues as women's ordination.

[Bridget Burke]

69. So--he'll be enforcing conservative doctrine...

But he seems to lack JPII's personal magnetism.

So, after his short reign--people may well be ready for a change.

[regnaD kciN]

207. Except that the only people who will be picking his successor...

...will be the same electors who picked him, plus any new cardinals he elevates during his papacy. And you can count that they won't be liberal...

[yellowcanine]

86. That's a thin reed to count on. If he lives as long as ol' Strom, we are

stuck with him for 22 years.

[Broken Acorn]

21. Did Diebold run this election too?

N/T

[LostinVA]

61. I'm not the least bit surprised it was Ratzinger

I said the day the JP II died Ratzinger would get it. I'll guarantee they knew who would "win" the election when they entered the Conclave yesterday. A "show vote" or two so as not to appear too hasty...

[Charon]

293. Diebold

No, just old fashion paper ballots counted by hand.

[Straight Shooter]

29. The Vatican is an instrument of political power.

Doesn't matter who the Pope is, except as a role model. Ratzinger will never fill JP's shoes; thus, he will fail.

I don't want to hear the Church whining about lack of membership. As for me, I left dogmatic religion a long time ago and never went back. I go to church in the mountains, by the shores, or looking into a midnight sky.

[Arugula Latte]

58. "The Vatican is an instrument of political power"

Yes, exactly, and that's why I was so distressed when the Pope died that so many DUers were telling us who criticized him and the Church to "shut up, respect the Pope, it's our religion...blah blah blah." Well, this fucking Pope, like JPII, has tremendous POLITICAL influence over the world and the whole lot of them are open for any criticism we can sling their way.

BTW, I don't ONLY single out Catholism for criticism. A pox on all the fascistic, outdated, ananchronistic belief systems that keep people surpressed and miserable the world over.

[Placebo]

34. Extremely disappointing.

I guess this is the Cardinals' way of saying that they are not in the mood for change. The good news is that he's 78 and might just be dead by the time Hillary Clinton is elected President in 2008.

[Zhade]

202. Damn! This means he will never die!

NT!

[norml]

39. Reuters: Cardinal Ratzinger elected Pope

Cardinal Ratzinger elected Pope
Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:48 PM BST



By Philip Pullella and Crispian Balmer

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - German cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was elected to lead the Roman Catholic Church, a cardinal announced on Tuesday.

He will take the name Pope Benedict XVI as his papal name.

The election of the 265th pontiff on only the second day of a conclave in the Vatican's frescoed Sistine Chapel was signalled by white smoke from the chapel chimney and the tolling of the bells of St. Peter's Basilica.

But there were many minutes of confusion over the colour of the smoke, which initially seemed grey, before the bells began tolling to signal the successful election.



snip



http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=t...








http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&s...

[realFedUp]

41. Ratz

foiled again.

[despairing optimist]

43. A choice that may bankrupt the Vatican by alienating liberal Catholics

Then again, he's old and may not live long enough to do any more damage than has already been done. It's hard to top condemning condom use against HIV and liberation theology seeking political solutions to poverty when you're already 78. Also, don't look for many world tours from this pope. Triathlons are definitely out too.

The Hitler Youth angle is irrelevant, IMHO. Lots of German kids pretty much had to join HY or they and their families would have suffered the consequences. The problem isn't what the man did as a boy; it's what he'll tolerate from the clergy who would molest boys and hide their tracks. Voices calling for peace and justice should be welcome wherever they come from, as long as they are held accountable for their actions in pusuit and support of such lofty ideals.

[Crunchy Frog]

50. Well, I was afraid this was going to happen.

Everything that I've ever seen about the guy scares me.

[Bigmack]

51. Thank God!....

We have a new Holy Father to lead our world. I felt so lost... so rudderless on the Sea of Sin.

Perhaps his Conservative leadership will bring back the millions in Latin America who've turned to the Whackjob Fundies. Those brown people don't need liberation... they need the stern Holy Mother Church and abstinance.

Deep

[HEyHEY]

52. Wasn't he a Nazi?

[da_chimperor]

70. Hitler Jugend, actually.

[HEyHEY]

71. Ah, just a mini-Nazi

[Orsino]

135. Anyone know whether he actually joined the party?

Perhaps he was never old enough?

[HEyHEY]

140. I heard his family was one of the biggest opposers of it

[Mondon]

302. HJ was compulsory by time he was 10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

[Stella_Artois]

74. No

He was in the Hitler Youth, at a time when membership was compulsary.

He was 14 years old, he did what he was told.

[HEyHEY]

79. Then he was in the German Army

Until deserting in 1945.

[Stella_Artois]

97. So was the rest of his class

Seriously, he was a German growing up in 1945, he was caught up in what happened like any other German teenager. Virtually every single German male born before 1930 did something in the war. That doesn't make them all Nazis no more than someone growing up in America now is a republican.

If a draft comes to America will everyone that gets drafted become a republican by default ?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

141. Joined the Hitler Youth in 1941, became part of a flak unit in 1943,....

...attended basic infantry training in 1945, and then deserted just prior to the end of the war.

The two+ years of Hitler Youth indoctrination forms the bedrock of his current very conservative belief structure.

[Kathryn7]

168. He was drafted and deserted in April 1944 a year before Hitler shot self.

[bpilgrim]

258. gotta link?

said he became a u.s. pow after the war, May 7, 1945, would love to learn more about the circumstances and dates.

tis

peace

[Phelan]

173. The Jerusalem Post defended Ratzinger against those charges yesterday

Now call me crazy,
but if the Jerusalem Post defends you as a friend from charges of being a nazi and anti-semite you probably are aren't.

Just go to http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/J... ]
and read the damn editorial if you don't believe me.

Now attack the guys conservative views rather than a bs smear.

[NYC]

197. Richard Perle is director of the Jerusalem Post.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/perle.php

Mr. Perle also presently serves as Chairman of the Defense Policy Board, Department of Defense, Chairman and CEO of Hollinger Digital, and Director of The Jerusalem Post.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040913/news_m...

Perle, along with Henry Kissinger, serves on the Hollinger board of directors, as well as on the board of the Jerusalem Post, part of Black's newspaper empire. The Hollinger committee accuses Perle of "flagrant abdication of duty" and of "putting his own interests above those of Hollinger's shareholders," and called on him to return $5.4 million in pay. It wants $200 million back from Black.

[Zhade]

208. While this is true...

...(and indicates why anyone arguing the Israeli/Palestinian issue by using the Jerusalem Post is an uninformed idiot), the fact that he was a member of the HY shouldn't damn him automatically.

Of course, his own actions throughout his life do a fine job of that. And I agree with M_L_D that Ratzinger's conservative worldview may be tainted by that past association.

[Phelan]

218. Probably because both are very much Jewish

But how would this affect the article?

Because Perel and Kissinger are on the board the JP is going to defend a Nazi and anti-semite? Now both of them may very well be evil,but fans of Nazis they are not.

Essentially I was just pointing out that the Nazi connection is just sensationalism on part of the Sunday Times so much so that a Jewish newspaper took the time to point it out.

You know, come to think of it... I actually really don't care what you think of the guy. But I would wish that people gave him a chance before damning him.

[Zhade]

219. I think he's had 78 years of chances.

If you're asking anyone to defend this guy's actions as an adult, well, you're going to be waiting a while.

[NYC]

261. You don't know what I think of the guy.

I didn't say.

Phelan: ...I actually really don't care what you think of the guy. But I would wish that people gave him a chance before damning him...

I merely pointed out the leanings of the Jerusalem Post, since you quoted it as a source.

Phelan: ...Because Perel and Kissinger are on the board the JP is going to defend a Nazi and anti-semite? Now both of them may very well be evil,but fans of Nazis they are not...

Did I say anything about Nazis or anti-semitism? Not a word. I just don't have a high opinion of Perle.

[Charles]

178. Ratzinger = Hitler Youth

Yes he wuz.

"Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger’s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00...



/

[Charon]

292. Byrd=KKK

Yes he wuz

[MrPrax]

60. Pope Needs a Theme Song...

Somebody should try to re-work the 'Love' Theme from Ben!

Benedict, the Vatican needs look no more
We all found what we were looking for
With a friend to call my own
I'll never be alone
And you, my friend, will see
You've got a neocon in me
(you've got a neocon in me)

Benedict, you're always running here and there
You feel you're not wanted anywhere
If you ever look behind
And don't like what you find
There's one thing you should know
You've got a hole to go
(you've got a hole to go)

Sorta writes itself...

[KamaAina]

117. Didn't Mel Brooks take care of that already?

seeing as how Ratz's "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" is really...

The Inquisition (Let's begin)
The Inquisition (Look out sin)
We have a mission to convert the Jews (Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew)
We're gonna teach them wrong from right.
We're gonna help them see the light
and make an offer that they can't refuse. (That those Jews just can't refuse)
Confess, don't be boring.
Say yes, don't be dull.
A fact you're ignoring:
It's better to lose your skull cap than your skull (oy oy gevalt!)
The Inquisition (what a show)
The Inquisition (here we go)
We know you're wishin' that we'd go away.
But the Inquisition's here and it's here to stay!

http://www.funnyfarmonline.org/archives/000262.php

[eridani]

291. Oh, my name is Torquemada

I'm the leader of a band
We run the Inquisition
And we're feared throughouth the land
Oh, we work on Jews and Protestants
We kick them as they fall
But when we work on heretics
We work the best of all!

(Tune: McNamara's Band)

[cloudythescribbler]

184. no -- to the tune of "Matchmaker" (Ratzinger, Ratzinger zing me a rat)

Ratzinger Ratzinger zing me a rat
we don't need to hear
any of that
Ratzinger Ratzinger zing me a rat
so we can
s*** down for sure

Others can compose the rest of the lyrics

[jeffreyi]

65. Article by ousted priest Matthew Fox; re: current catholic affairs

excerpt:

While the media responds profousely to the telegenic pope who has just passed, and while he accomplished some good things such as taking a stand against the Iraq war and against capital punishment and against the idolatry of consumerism, I really do believe that history will not be kind to this papacy. This pope and his self-appointed German mafia headed by Cardinal Ratzinger will have to face the judgement of history (and very likely God also) over issues that include but are not limited to the following:

A pre-occupation with morality as sexual issues even when this morality is deeply flawed. I include the following examples:
--The forbidding of one billion Catholics world wide to practice birth control even while the human population explodes at the seams.
--The forbidding of the use of condoms even in a time when AIDS is killing individuals and whole populations the world over.
--The head-long pursuit of Augustine's theology of sexuality (all sex must be legitimized by having children)
--Ugly attacks in the pope's name against homosexuals and the complete ignoring of what science and professional psychological associations have learned about homosexuality (for example, that it is a natural phenomenon for 8-10% of any given human population as well as over 460 non-human species).....


http://www.matthewfox.org/sys-tmpl/htmlpage8 /

a good article, well worth reading

[demo dutch]

81. With Benedict it'll only get worse!!

[Bryn]

190. Matthew Fox for Pope!!!

He'd be perfect! I am his fan and love his books. I am an Episcopalian.

"Matthew Fox is a teacher, writer, and theologian who has helped spark the spiritual revolution in this country with a succession of provocative books, including Original Blessing; Creation Spirituality; The Coming of the Cosmic Christ;and The Reinvention of Work. Once silenced and finally dismissed from the Dominican Order by the Vatican, Matthew Fox is now an Episcopalian minister. He presently serves as director of the Institute in Culture and Creation Spirituality at Holy Names College in Oakland, California."

[Zhade]

210. Don't forget the RCC's LIE that AIDS passes through condoms.

The amount of blood on the church's hands is ever-increasing.

[BadNews]

280. Never heard that before. Where did you get it? NT/

[Zhade]

284. Here's a couple bits from the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3176982.stm

<SNIP>

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could even pass through condoms.

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he says.

The cardinal, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests that governments should urge people not to use condoms.


Another from the BBC...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3844985....

<SNIP>

Cardinal Lopez Trujillo, President of the Pontifical Council for the Family, made the controversial claim on Panorama's "Sex and the Holy City" programme last year.

He was asked if it was the Vatican's position that the HIV virus can pass through a condom.

Significant risk

"Yes, yes, because this is something which the scientific community accepts, and doctors know what we are saying," he replied.

"You cannot talk about safe sex," he added, insisting that holes in condoms are a significant health risk.

[meow2u3]

66. One can call Pope Benedict XVI "the German Shephard"

After all, dog is God spelled backwards. (couldn't resist)

[Rich Hunt]

116. good one

[yellowcanine]

78. Didn't he downplay the sex scandal saying it was just an attack on the

church? And wasn't he mainly responsible for getting Cardinal Law a Vatican job (essentially a promotion) after he was forced to leave Boston because of the scandal? If so, how is this not a slap in the face of victims? IMO he also blatantly campaigned for the position by giving a hard hitting defense of orthodoxy in the mass before the conclave - Shouldn't that have been a time for a more reflective homily about the importance of deliberating carefully to devine the will of God in the selection of the new Pope? I am not a Catholic, but I have to believe that this Pope will be feared and maybe respected but he will never be loved the way John Paul II was.

[demo dutch]

91. Yep, the church thumbs its nose to the victims. They just really

don't care. This is also the guy that bascially endorsed * to be the next great president of the US (twice). Don't you remember?

[ps1074]

80. I liked the cardinal of Brussels

I saw him on TV earlier in the morning. He is very progresive on issues concerning women and homosexuality. I think he would have been a great choice to lead the CC.

Too bad they chosen one of the most socially conservative cardinals to be the nre pope.

[MrBenchley]

83. Tip Your Hats for Ratz!

He'll do a lot for atheism before he gets done....

[slackmaster]

85. Amazing that anyone would expect different from the RCC

It's not exactly a bastion of progressive ideals.

Let me know when the RCC starts ordaining women or people who are openly homosexual, or when it abandons the position that gay sex is cardinal sin.

Let me know when the RCC allows women to choose abortion under ANY circumstance.

Let me know when the RCC allows its clergy to marry.

Let me know when the RCC starts actively rooting out and punishing child molesters within its ranks.

[GemMom]

158. Bingo.......

You nailed it.

[minkyboodle]

87. yikes

I remember reading the Washington Posts' lineup of the possible successors the other week and thinking... anybody but this guy. This is a bonehead move IMO for the church, not gonna help their decline in Europe and may slow down their gains in the third world. I was just hoping for a Pope that was ok on globalization guess it isn't gonna happen.

[Gin]

92. it could have been worse...could have been Cardinal Law.....

imagine that....I am a recovering Catholic and proud of it!

[slackmaster]

99. I miss Jaime Cardinal Sin of the Philippines

[demo dutch]

102. He if this one has a short life Law may be the next pope, that's pretty

much the track record of the RCC

[quarbis]

130. recovering Catholic

I left the Church after 5 years in the Seminary because the "rules" were never equally applied. It was a hard decision because it was a great
deferment (IV-D). I ended up in Vietnam but I wasn't required to be a hyprocrit.

[earthside]

89. Sign of the End Times ....

... the end times of the Roman Church, that is. It is quite an indication of the health of this organization that their view into the future allows them to pick a guy that is 78 years old.

I can't help but chuckle too, at the way the corporate cable news media has been reporting this ... they were all a twitter like this really matters very much. They can say "the world's one billion Catholics" all they want. But the truth is that only about ten percent of that number are genuine, theologically practicing church-goers. Most Catholics are that in name only ... the space you fill-in on a form where it asks religion.

However, I do agree with much that has been written above about the ultra-conservative record of this guy Ratzinger ... he's going to be a downer for the few Catholics that are left who believe in the message of peace, love, and social justice found in the four Gospels.

I'm glad I'm not a member of the Roman Church and have to accept this as "God's will" ... I'm quite content not even being a Christian anymore.

[demo dutch]

103. They've pretty much made themselves irrelevant with this choice

[Rich Hunt]

113. yes

Hopefully, they'll all die off soon.

[Zhade]

222. The poster is obviously not hoping for that.

I wouldn't be surprised, however, if s/he is hoping for the death of the RCC's autocratic nature.

That's something I look forward to, as well.

[Rich Hunt]

312. okay, I see

Maybe not all of them - just one or two.

[Zhade]

319. Again with the persecution complex.

ARWalden is not hoping for it in regards to you, either. Get over yourself. Seriously. He didn't attack you, yet you slammed him as a racist (in code, of course).

You're not being persecuted. Get on with your life already.

[Henny Penny]

289. "But the truth is...

that only about ten percent of that number are genuine, theologically practicing church-goers. Most Catholics are that in name only ."

Mostly thanx to people like Ratzinger. The pronouncements coming out of the Vatican are so counter Christian, in many cases, that good people just simply cannot subscribe to them.

If you could see the type of person being ordained now, you would realise that the church is dying. Those 90% who haven't quite cut ties, are praying for a miracle and waiting......

Its a very sad day when the best thing you can say about a new pope is "well, maybe he won't last long".

[Up2Late]

95. Pope #111 on St. Malachy's list -- Pope Benedict XVI...Is this weird or...

...are thy just following a script/predicted path?

I just found this article, I don't know when it was originally written, but, it wasn't written today (it was just updated by someone very proud of them self.)

<http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article41.htm >

...The First Pope After John Paul II

Pope #111 on St. Malachy's list is given the phrase: “From the Glory of the Olive.” This prophetic phrase has several meanings which correctly apply to the next Pope after John Paul II.

a. What is the glory of the olive? The olive branch is a well-known symbol of peace. The glory of the olive is peace. The next Pope after John Paul II will be a man of great peace. Peace will be his banner, peace will be his work, peace will be his goal. He will seek peace among individuals, among nations, among Catholics, between Catholics and other Christians, and between Catholics and adherents of other religions. The next Pope after John Paul II will have a Pontificate distinguished for seeking Peace around the world. He is correctly called the Pope of Peace.

St. Malachy's prophecy about John Paul II fit his Pontificate well, once it began. But, before being elected Pope, Karol Wojtyla did not distinguish himself by traveling constantly. The next Pope after John Paul II may not have distinguished himself yet in works of peace-making. Or, he may have distinguished himself in peace-making in God's eyes, but not yet in the eyes of the world.

b. Some say that this prediction of St. Malachy, “From the Glory of the Olive,” refers to the Order of St. Benedict, because they have a well-known group within their order called the 'Olivetans.' There is some merit to this idea. But it does not mean that this Pope will come from the Order of St. Benedict, but rather that he will take the name of Saint Benedict and will live in imitation of him.

c. The next Pope after John Paul II will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and also of Pope Benedict XV. Just as Pope Benedict XV was an emissary of peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI be an emissary of peace. Just as Pope Benedict XV sought peace and spoke of peace and wrote papal documents seeking peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI do also. Just as Pope Benedict XV failed to achieve peace in the world, so will Pope Benedict XVI fail to achieve peace in the world. Just as the Pontificate of Benedict XV began prior to World War I, so will the Pontificate of Benedict XVI occur prior to World War III. After the Pontificate of Benedict XVI, World War III will begin. The Arab nations will threaten and attack the United States; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer Europe; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer the northern part of Africa. It is God's will.

d. Pope Benedict XVI will be like Saint Benedict, who lived in the fifth and sixth centuries. He will be a man dedicated to peace and holiness. There is another Saint Benedict, a well-known Saint called Saint Benedict the Black (il moro santo, the holy Moor). Pope Benedict XVI will also be like Saint Benedict the Black. Pope Benedict XVI will be a black man, like Saint Benedict the Moor. He will be a holy Pope, who reinforces the teaching of the Church in opposition to the errors of modern culture.{Note added April 19, 2005: I was mistaken when I thought that the next pope after John Paul II would be black. I am fallible. My predictions are also fallible.}

e. Pope Benedict XVI is mentioned in Sacred Scripture, in a hidden manner...

[MaineDem]

107. Looks like it was last modified today.

Really freaky if this was there yesterday.

[goobergunch]

189. It appears to have been there prior to John Paul II's death

per the Google cache:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:rhX19k9zS8wJ:www.cat...

[Up2Late]

283. What do you have to do to check the Google cache like that?

And do the other search engines have that feature too?

[understandinglife]

96. He'll definitely accelerate the 'down-sizing' of the RCC (nt)

www.missionnotaccomplished.us (a time to reflect on how little gold jewelry and fancy smocks Jesus wore)

[calimary]

120. No, it'll be outsourcing.

'Cause I won't be back. Not for awhile. There's precious little for me there anymore. I won't break away formally and completely, but I sure won't be around much.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demo dutch]

106. Zatzinger was head of the Dept. of Inquisition (that's what it

used to be called)

[dusty64]

104. This is not surprising

at all. I figured John Paul had made his personal choice well known to those in power and the fix was in. Maybe that is why he has insisted that all his personal papers and instructions be burned. This is just another step backward for organized religion. There really seems to be little room anymore for sanity in churches. I imagine organized religions quest to destroy progressive society will fail and they in turn will be changed dramatically, the alternative is one I try not to think about much. Things move forward despite the best attempts to force us backwards.

[demo dutch]

108. I agree, remember Martin Luther! I think it's about time

to nail another Theses to the door of the (Wittenberg) Church.

[JVS]

157. Hey, you leave Wittenberg's church alone

I've been there. They are Lutherans at that church now and if you're mad about Benedict XVI, your quarrel is not with those people.

[demo dutch]

Symbolically spoken of course. It's really time to nail a thesis

(this time) on the door of the Vatican

[Dulcinea]

166. That's what I think too.

JP2 considered retiring in 2000, remember. I wouldn't doubt he handpicked his successor.

Well, looks like I'm still a lapsed Catholic. (sigh)

[KamaAina]

105. Look on the bright side...

...this ensures that Bush** is not the most fascist leader in the known universe. Berlusconi (out-and-out fascist Fini in cabinet) might have had the edge, but this makes it official.

Whatever else may have been going on in there, I'm reasonably sure that God was not speaking to them, saying "Hey, guys, why not shake things up a little bit? Go for the Nazi!"

[Catt03]

109. This should wake up all you non Catholics and the fundies too

“Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”

Ratzinger, 2000, Domicus Jesus

[tedzbear]

118. “Only in the Catholic church is there eternal salvation”

Didn't Osama bin Laden say the same thing about Islam?

[kineneb]

253. How quaint. How simplistic.

How "check your crayons at the door." Not buying it.

There are as many paths to Nirvana as there are sets of feet to travel them. Peace.

[goclark]

114. What a surprise! NOT

I knew he would be named.

The rest of the names were just ROVE tricks to throw off everyone.

He was placed there by the likes of BushCO.

It sends a STRONG signal to the non white people of the world that "WHITE POWER" is the name of the game.

It was also a strong signal for WHITES to return to the church and be welcomed with open arms. They don't care about the Hispanics and Africans that are devoting themselves to the church.

It is a sad day for the world in my opinion.

[LiberallyInclined]

119. IF there is a god- I'm sure he'll be calling benedict 16 home very soon...

mistakes like this should be corrected as soon as is godly possible

[catbert836]

121. Oh great. They picked a Nazi.

I'm Catholic, but seriously, this is just too much.

[LiberallyInclined]

123. if you're catholic- he's the man. the holy infallible man.

that's the rules.

[catbert836]

127. Well, I'll have to see just how bad it gets then.

I'm not letting Benedict XVI, nor any other hardcore fundie, push me out of my church.

[cloudythescribbler]

185. THAT's the spririt -- now Catholic progs need to organize effectively

As an agnostic of Jewish background, I had been urging Catholic and other progressives to publicly raise a chorus of voices around the world at least calling for balance within the Church. If accused of "politicizing" an already political selection, the Holy Ghost notwithstanding, one could point out the fact that the rightwing was WELL mobilized before this conclave met.

Had progressive Catholics and others raised their voices in a public chorus in the media and with groups organized formally and informally to call for a different direction in the Church from the top, they would be in a BETTER position now to mobilize. Now, though there are groups like the women's open conclave and a German group (Church is ours?) that condemned the selection quickly, there needs to be general global networking and a position to raise something of the dimensions of a global peace mobilization when the time comes for the next mobilization. And publicly advocate it and address all the protestations that it would have a perverse effect etc. (I suppose if progressives had spoken out they would have picked David Duke instead as a dark horse candidate?), including from supposed liberals and reformers in the fold. (No real change takes place unless people are willing to face and revel in condemnation by authority).

So there needs to be global networking starting NOW, on the web and elsewhere, formal and informal, both to pressure the Church on issues where they supposedly already are relatively progressive (peace and economic social justice and the environment) and to lay the groundwork for a demand for a different direction when Benedict XVI buys the farm.

I would like to see THIS idea as the basis of its own thread!!!

[Mondon]

303. Not a Nazi

There are many reasons to criticize this man. Being a Nazi is not one of them. He joind the HY when it was compulsory, was conscripted into the Army at 18, and then deserted. His family had to move because they didn't get along with the Nazis in his home town.

Calling him a Nazi when he isn't causes people to write off legitimate criticisms.

[norml]

126. Pope Benedict XVI Predicted

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 209 for "Pope Benedict XVI". (0.14 seconds)
Tip: Save time by hitting the return key instead of clicking on "search"

News results for "Pope Benedict XVI" - View today's top stories
German Cardinal Ratzinger Elected Pope Benedict XVI (Update2) - Bloomberg - 45 minutes ago
Biography: Benedict XVI - Globe and Mail - 1 hour ago





The Future and the Popes
... The next Pope after John Paul II will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, ...
was an emissary of peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI be an emissary of peace. ...
www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article41.htm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

New Insights into the Deposit of Faith
... This article predicts that the Pope after John Paul II will take the name Pope
Benedict XVI. ... I think that Pope Benedict XVI will be black. ...
www.catholicplanet.com/insights/ - 8k - Cached - Similar pages
< More results from www.catholicplanet.com >

Catholic Theology
... 2) He will not be a Benedictine, but he will take the name Pope Benedict XVI.
... Therefore, Pope Benedict XVI, the black pope, will seek peace among ...
groups.msn.com/CatholicTheology/general.msnw?action=get_ message&mview=0&ID_Message=425&LastMo... - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

CBEM 518.1 - ComicBookNetworkEmag Archives at ...
... so will Pope Benedict XVI be an emissary of peace. Just as Pope ... Pope Benedict
XVI fail to achieve peace in the world. Just as the ...
archives.zinester.com/49753/44488.html - 38k - Cached - Similar pages

History Channel
... Pope Benedict XVI, will be of African descent and live just 6.8 years after
... >>Pope Benedict XVI, will be of African descent and live just 6.8 years ...
boards.historychannel.com/ thread.jspa?threadID=600001441&tstart=120&start=-1 - 56k - Cached - Similar pages

Who Will The Next Pope Be? (Not "who will be the next Pope")
... The next pope will be POPE BENEDICT XVI inorder to fulfill St. Malachy's prophecies
as the last pope in reference to the Glory of the Olive. ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1376766/posts - 40k - Cached - Similar pages

Prophecies - Psychic Prophecy, Prediction and Premonition Registry
... And 2/22/05, the Monarch will appear, and will call himself Pope Benedict XVI,
... I am Gloriae Olivae, Pope Benedict XVI, Elijah, and finally Dan'el. ...
www.prophecies.us/article.php?sid=626 - 37k - Cached - Similar pages

FARK.com: (1428652) List of potential new pope names. Oh, how I ...
... jimpoz I'll put my money on Benedict XVI. No reason. oh yeah!? The next Pope
after John Paul II will take the name Pope Benedict XVI ...
forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1428652 - 110k - Cached - Similar pages

The Death of a Pope
... observers in Rome believe if this is true, the next pope will go by the name
of Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and Pope Benedict XV. ...
www.foundations.edu/online_material/ straightway/2005/vol33_no3.htm - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums -> The new pope
... I wouldn't be suprised if he will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, even though
his mother was Christenized as Benedict. He is not the anti-christ and ...
www.unexplained-mysteries.com / forum/index.php?showtopic=38320 - 91k - Cached - Similar pages


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Pope+Benedict+X...

[happynewyear]

136. Ratzinger a member of the Benedictine Order 16th century

insight perhaps?

[barbaraann]

128. I wonder if he will save Berlusconi.

n/t

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

131. Why, you ask?

Quote: "If you want someone who is going to tell you that every vain desire you have is ok to act on any time, why even bother claiming to have a religion? Why not just call your selves, the self indulgers society. Then you wouldn't make real religious people look bad and the organizations would be stronger for it."

There's already such an organization -- it's called the GOP, and at its head is the ultimate self-indulger in vain desires, George W. Bush.

[DoYouEverWonder]

134. So instead

we should accept someone who is going to continue to protect pedophiles?

Thanks, but no thanks.

[goclark]

145. Business as usually

Protect the abusers of little boys
No woman in power
No priest can marry

KKKKarl wins again!

[renaissanceguy]

160. And no control over your own crotch.

[BadNews]

195. They would say the problem is that people don't exercise control. NT/

[Zhade]

228. Only self-righteous assholes who want to control others would say that.

To hell with those kinds of people - they have no right to control anyone but themselves.

[BadNews]

242. Luckily, the only ones they can control is themselves.

By the way, how could they "control" others. Are we all not free to choose?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. The real "spineless wimps" are the folks that follow the conservative....

...agenda without asking questions and with little or no deviation.

At least progressives are trying to deal with the current world instead of living in a past world.

[Merlin]

144. There is a moral order more rational than that spun from biblical myth.

We do not seek an absence of moral order.

Rather we seek a moral order that makes rational sense.

The one divined from ancient tribal history, mythology and legend is substantially irrelevant to our modern era.

Surely there is no better evidence of this than the completely asinine, preposterous, ridiculous injunction that contraception is evil. While these dried up octegenarian dogmatists play around with their silly, narrow vision of what the "bible means" if you read it between the lines just right, real people in the real world are struggling with AIDS, female lives ruined by unwanted pregnancies, and a need of even raped and molested teenage children to resort to the awful experience of abortion.

These men should hang there heads in shame for this unconscionable act of cowardice. Ratzinger is a bum. He is a fasicst and he will--I predict--leave office in disrespect.

The only good thing to be said for this miserable excuse for a pontiff is that he may help turn the tide away from fundamentalism at long last and back into the sunlight where the God of Creation and Reason truly exists.

[pnutchuck]

163. Well said!

As a Buddhist, I don't seek a lack of morality, but a path of spirituality based purely on logic. The RCC seems to defy logic whenever possible.

[nolabels]

147. My invertebrate self is calling me back home to the slime pit

I try to communicate in the singular when ever possible and I couldn't resist your post. Yes I would also like to become part of "The self indulgers society", it all sounds so easy, where do I sign up?

Btw. can I be hypocrite like the rest of the fundies after I join

[Puglover]

150. So "real religious" people

protect pedophiles? Deny women rights that men have? Deny for religious reasons, people protection from a disease (condoms) and watch a continent of people be decimated? WTF is your idiotic post supposed to mean?


edit for grammer....I was pissed and typing too fast.

[demo dutch]

176. Worse yet, in Africa millions die of aids and the church

continues to prohibit the use of condoms

[BadNews]

192. And it continues to grow. NT/

[Zhade]

229. What, the RCC or the deaths on its hands for lying about AIDS?

Surely not the former, since the church is actually shrinking. Nice try, though.

[BadNews]

231. Both actually

Deaths due to aids and poverty are rising.

Yet, membership in Africa and Latin America are rising. The shrinking of the church and hence its funds are due to European and American congregations. In Europe and America, congregations are indeed shrinking.

[Zhade]

233. How about some evidence to back up your claims?

NT!

[BadNews]

239. Is NPR good enough?

I remember hearing it on NPR first. These are the first links I found.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=45...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=46...

A quick google search also found this:
http://www.catholicweekly.com.au/03/aug/17/16.html

The last is Catholic church newsletter so a bit of skepticism can be expected from you. However, I don't think this is some major propaganda. Rather, it is an assessment of where they see their membership heading.

Regarding Latin America, Catholisism is still the largest religion in any of the countries. There have been many inroads by protestants. However, most of the protestant growth has been by their version of fundies. If you want me to find those numbers, I will.

[Zhade]

244. National Petroluem Radio? Yeah, they're objective and great journalists.

</sarcasm>

I'm more arguing that overall the RCC is shrinking, not that LA membership is shrinking.

[cloudythescribbler]

186. I am not the least bit religious but see the importance of the Church

There are different approaches progressives can take towards the Church. Some say it is simply hopeless, was reactionary 500 years ago and will be swept away in the global socialist revolution or with the advance of secular humanism.

But this is shallow and mechanistic thinking. There are issues NOW that need to be addressed, and just as unions, the Democratic Party, the mass media and every other possible venue that could have ANY influence do not meet radical ideals, authentic progressives must see what can be done NOW to change certain key things.

In the case of the Church, the key issue is how they put so much more emphasis on issues like abortion and contraception than on the politics of the environment or of absolute poverty ("world hunger") and peace. Sure they do MORE than merely pay lip service to these, but nothing like their focus on abortion. There has been talk of a religious order (good chance of it now!)devoted to opposing abortion. What about a religious order devoted to protecting the environment, and seeking an environmentally friendly global development program to end absolute poverty? These priorities show that the Church merely pulls its punches when dealing with the capitalist "family" elite of the West, general blather about 'materialism' notwithstanding.

In the Justice and Peace newsletter of the San Fransisco (arch?)diocese about 15 years ago, the issue was put thus: "Clearly, Catholic politicians" can take any position they wish on political issues "except on the issue of abortion where the Church's position is clear". The use of clear twice in the same sentence was noteworthy. But the statement reflects the real priorities of the Church, priorities that need to be openly and globally challenged, thus uniting Catholic progressives in the first and third worlds.

This should be the subject of its own thread, I think.

CLOUDY

[BadNews]

194. The church and capitalism

will always have an uneasy alliance. Capitalists make most of the money. The church relies on their donations to survive. Capitalists need the church to ease their conscience.

The other thing is that while they may talk of environmental and materialism, the church sees them as secondary issues. The most important issues to them are ones that deal with individual salvation. Hence abortion (murder) in their view takes precedent over societal issues like the environment. While materialism still falls into this category, it is not considered as grave a sin as murder. Also, if the materialist sees fit to donate to the church then his conscience is assuaged. As for poverty, again, the church is meant for the salvation of man and works with individual salvation. Relief of suffering is important, but to them it is not as important as saving the soul. I don't expect the focus to change from individual salvation to societal in my lifetime.

[Zhade]

226. Vain desire?

Is it a "vain desire" to demand women's equality and the right to control their own bodies? How "vain" is it to demand that homosexuals not be treated like pariahs, but instead as people born they way they are?

I guess you'd think it "vain" that everyone should be treated as equal human beings, huh?

[BadNews]

234. In this church it is.

As long as homosexuality is considered a choice, it can be considered a sin.

As for women in church positions, the men control things. No matter what you do, no Govt intervention, or affirmative action can change that. It is easier to change governments than religions.

[Zhade]

235. Well, it can be considered that by backwards-looking idiots...

...but it still remains something people are born as, so who cares what they think personally.

[BadNews]

241. People make laws and people run the churches.

As long as that is how they think, there will be little progress in these areas. This is especially true in the realm of religion.

[Zhade]

243. On this we can agree.

Their thinking is flawed and wrong, as well as bigoted, but it's true that people who think like this are in power in the RCC.

Hopefully, this will diminish the RCC in the eyes of many.

[JerseygirlCT]

240. How strange!

Do you think religion exists to "control" people? Is it about authoritarian control of physical desires? What thin stuff to base belief on!

I want progressive religious leaders for the same reason I want progressive political leaders: because I want what's right. I want dignity and respect and love for my fellow human beings -- male or female, gay or straight, whatever they look like. I have a real problem with authorities that are happy to focus on supposed sexual morality issues, and happy to ignore far more widespread and dangerous evils -- abuse of children, poverty, war. Morality is NOT about just sex, and women are not to be controlled.

I'm not interested in being "controlled". I'm interested in working toward being the kind of person who lives: love one another.

[Zhade]

264. Very well-said!

NT!

[davhill]

146. Don't expect any changes

He has been de facto pope for the last several years of John Paul II's infirmity. Before that he was the popes attack dog, required to make tough sounding statements that would deflect criticism of the popular John Paul II. His "conservatism" just went with the job. If he does turn out to be a reactionary extremist, remember the Church has survived various Borgias and Medicis, inquisitions, reformations, and crusades. It will survive Benedict XVI as well.

[BadNews]

155. The only change will be more Papal traveling.

John Paul showed that by traveling to the masses of South America, and Africa, his high profile would gain attention and promote faith. In essence, he reenergized the base, and the membership grew.

I would expect this pope to do the same as long as his health holds out. Currently, he is not seen as a pope for the people. Yet, if he makes similar apperances to what JPII did, I would expect a rebound for the Catholic Church. It will bring many who have lapsed in church attendance back to the fold.

The fact that he is conservative is no change from JPII. What can/will he do that is more conservative than JPII? Nothing. As the populous gets to know him, he will quickly rise in stature among the faithful.

I think if you are expecting some sort of backlash, you will be quite disappointed. If anything, Catholic Church attendance will be strengthened. I think that will even be true here in America. If people here turn more to religion, that will mean a stronger Repuke party if we don't find a way to reach out to them.

[DoYouEverWonder]

167. He may not be any more or less conservative

but he certainly is more corrupt.

[BadNews]

191. Corrupt?? Please expound and explain.

I honestly don't know enough about the guy to come to that conclusion. Why do you feel he is corrupt? Outside of supporting * for president, I know nothing of him.

[JVS]

154. Bwahahahahaha. Classic man. Into the conclave a pope and right back...

out as one.

[Kimber Scott]

161. I don't get it. This is a church with a set doctrine. Like it, or don't.

All the fuss is like saying the Boy Scouts should have girls in it, or it would be better for Catholics were they to adopt a Protestant doctrine.

Gees. I'm not a Catholic, but I'm pretty sure the Pope is. Why shouldn't Catholics be Catholic? Why should chocolate lovers be forced to eat vanilla? If you don't like the rules, play a different game. It's a church - not a democracy.

Congratulations, Pope Benedict XVI.

[Zhade]

232. So you're saying all Catholics are the same?

They should all agree that homosexuals are evil, that women are lowlier than men, that pedophiles should be protected from prosecution?

Don't liberal Catholics have a right to have their voices heard and their concerns addressed?

[daleo]

162. The real test:

Will he oppose the Iran invasion.

[pie]

169. I agree. I think he will not oppose the invasion.

[demo dutch]

175. Is the fact that he choose "Benedict" "the sign on the wall"?

[norml]

179. Pope Benedict XVI will be an emissary of peace.

a. What is the glory of the olive? The olive branch is a well-known symbol of peace. The glory of the olive is peace. The next Pope after John Paul II will be a man of great peace. Peace will be his banner, peace will be his work, peace will be his goal. He will seek peace among individuals, among nations, among Catholics, between Catholics and other Christians, and between Catholics and adherents of other religions. The next Pope after John Paul II will have a Pontificate distinguished for seeking Peace around the world. He is correctly called the Pope of Peace.

St. Malachy's prophecy about John Paul II fit his Pontificate well, once it began. But, before being elected Pope, Karol Wojtyla did not distinguish himself by traveling constantly. The next Pope after John Paul II may not have distinguished himself yet in works of peace-making. Or, he may have distinguished himself in peace-making in God's eyes, but not yet in the eyes of the world.

b. Some say that this prediction of St. Malachy, “From the Glory of the Olive,” refers to the Order of St. Benedict, because they have a well-known group within their order called the 'Olivetans.' There is some merit to this idea. But it does not mean that this Pope will come from the Order of St. Benedict, but rather that he will take the name of Saint Benedict and will live in imitation of him.

c. The next Pope after John Paul II will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and also of Pope Benedict XV. Just as Pope Benedict XV was an emissary of peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI be an emissary of peace. Just as Pope Benedict XV sought peace and spoke of peace and wrote papal documents seeking peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI do also. Just as Pope Benedict XV failed to achieve peace in the world, so will Pope Benedict XVI fail to achieve peace in the world. Just as the Pontificate of Benedict XV began prior to World War I, so will the Pontificate of Benedict XVI occur prior to World War III. After the Pontificate of Benedict XVI, World War III will begin. The Arab nations will threaten and attack the United States; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer Europe; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer the northern part of Africa. It is God's will.

snip

http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article41.htm

[Catherine Vincent]

164. I want the old Pope back.

[femme.democratique]

201. Me too! Ratzinger looks like death warmed over, creepy perv

Of course, I could burn in Nazi hell for saying so

[SKKY]

172. So, who's going to be the new Pope?

Now that we've all decided to lynch this one. Shouldn't we give him a chance, at least? I'm just wondering how many of you voicing opinions on this are even Catholic.

[demo dutch]

174. Listen it would be nice to praise the guy, but his record doesn't

exactly help! Some people suggested we should give GW Bush a chance when he first got elected.
Unfortunately history usually speaks for itself.

[kittycat1164]

177. I am Catholic

and it sucks. The man is so archaic it's frightening!!!!!!!!!!!

[donheld]

204. So non-catholics can voice no opinions?

[SKKY]

278. You can, absolutely, but don't expect a Catholic to take you seriously.

[BrightKnight]

187. deleted

posted in error

[tinanator]

217. jesus loves you, yes its true

unless your liberal, gay or jew.
Holy moley, cant we all find it in our hearts to forgive this conservative Hitler youth?

[artfan]

230. Enough with the doom and gloom

I believe that even though I do not agree with him on most issues he will be good for the church.

-sure he is tough and very 'old school' but it would take years to roll back the reforms of Vatican II and even then it will not go over well.

-opus dei, many have expressed concern he will align himself with them but I do not see it happening OD wants it ALL and he will want to keep an eye on them to preserve his own power

-JPII felt Bush might be the AntiChrist and as a close confidant to JPII BenidictXVI likely shares that view

-As one of the few Cardinals not appointed by JPII it shakes things up a bit

-he has been running the show for some time anyway so I do not see any big changes

-Christian fundamentalists and Catholics do not mix both believe the other is damned,

[Chalco]

237. So perhaps since this guy's days are numbered and he's

going to turn off more people there will be a revolution. Like maybe there will be 2 pope's, one for them and one for the rest of us. Or, no pope at all because Catholics will abandon the church and form their own place. The pope will become a relic of the past.

[ekwhite]

250. So we have an ex-Hitler Youth as Pope?

Even though he says it was mandatory service, it bothers me that the new pope fought for the Nazis in World War II. Just another reason I will never be a Catholic.

[leeman67]

257. Thank GOD I'm Agnostic

[buddysmellgood]

260. Oh hooray! Now I can go back to the church, give them my money and

trust them with my children. God bless us...every one.

[gauguin57]

262. I could care less about this pope crap.

Until a woman is allowed to stand at the balcony of St. Peter's with a little white hat on her head, I don't wanna hear about it. Until women are equal in that church, any pope's election is ILLEGITIMATE!

Any church that denies women the right to leadership positions AND refuses to allow birth control ... or even condoms to be used to help stop the AIDS pandemic in Africa ... is BULLSHIT! And don't even get me started on a woman's right to have control over her own BODY -- in PRIVACY.

New pope = misogynist and homophobe. He can kiss my lapsed-Catholic ass!

Another red-letter day for a medieval, backward, greedy, corrupt, neocon religious monarchy!

The Catholic Church makes me effing SICK! I advise all women, and all men who care about women, to flee from that sick institution. These men are never going to share power. The church considers me a second-class citizen, and I consider the church to be the ninth circle of hell.

[arnieheff]

268. Responsible for Presidential Election Memo to US Cardinals

Ratzinger was the one who sent out the memo to US cardinals during the presidential elections. It stated that any politician who supported abortion should not receive communion in the US. He will be a horrible pope I would venture to guess. Even the majority of Germans did not want him to be pope.

[gort]

269. Hey Catholics, Ashton Kutcher is behind all this

You've just been Pope'd!

[Pachamama]

272. As a Catholic who grew up in Germany, this is the absolute WORST choice! I

couldn't believe it when I heard the news! Great...a hard right-winger fundie who will steer the Catholic church even further to the right when it needs to start waking up if it wants to attract more faithful and keep those that have strayed due to their strict doctrine, of which almost every Catholic I know not only doesn't agree with nor practices.

This is for me the nail in the coffin of why I don't go to the Catholic Church much anymore...I thought it might be the time for change...its not...Catholic women like me won't go along with them....I'm a sheep who is permanently leaving this flock...

My God talks to me...don't need a pope or church for that....

[Up2Late]

285. I don't know how long it's been since you left Germany, but, is it...

...as bad (the empty Catholic Churches, that is) in Germany, as it is in France and the more Western European countries?

[UCLA Dem]

298. I read yesterday that Catholicism in Europe is sharply declining.

They really do need to wake up.

[Pachamama]

313. I haven't lived there since 1994, but I got back regularly & have lots of

family and friends there. Grew up in southern Munich near Lake Starnberg...attendance and following Catholic doctrine have been declining steadily for years and Ratzinger is seen as ultra-conservative and is not very popular. My family there thinks that this will just mean more Germans will leave or not attend Church any longer.

I personally had been hoping for a Pope from Africa or Central/South America....that would have been a very positive and popular choice and had profound affects and the message would have been a welcomed one, particularly in regions where the membership is stronger and it would have been an encouraging sign to me, my family and other Catholics.

Re. Ratzinger being German....that doesn't mean anything to me or my family and friends in Germany...Poland atleast had a lot to be proud in Karol "John Paul II"....Very little to be proud of with Ratzinger....

[Voltaire99]

281. Rabbi Michael Lerner: Ratzo sides with "the anti-humane and repressive"

"Joseph Ratzinger has distinguished himself as a man who can be counted on to side with the most anti-humane and repressive forces and in opposition to those who seek to give primacy to a world of peace and justice," Lerner said in a statement.

Quoted here:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/04/20/1113854233 ...

My view: Ratzo will waste little time imposing his reactionary fiats now that he's been elevated from a svengali to the Big Cheese. And just when a world steeped in misery needed a decent leader for its one billion Catholics, they and we got a living nightmare.

[Montanan]

294. Ratzinger looks like Pat Robertson & Tom DeLay's love-child n/t

[UCLA Dem]

297. wow. thats a disturbing mental picture. i shutter.

[BrightKnight]

308. Here is a disturbing picture.

[Roland99]

304. SpewsMax is pimping Ratzinger's book

http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&DID=6&Pro...

[Megahurtz]

306. Uh oh......

Seig Heil?

[ekwhite]

310. All hail der Popenfuhrer

Will the Vatican Guards have to learn how to goosestep?

[Karma]

311. Does the law of karma apply to all religions ? Just asking....

[Bridget Burke]

315. No.

Since you've chosen "karma" as your username, a bit of research might be in order!

[Karma]

317. Perhaps my satire was not clear...

while other religions and philosophies don't necessarily subscribe to the idea of karma in it's entirety, most do support the idea that there is a form of cosmic justice that (sooner or later) settles the score.

If you believe this, then the law of karma applies to all religions, whether they actually subscribe to it or not. Like John Lennon said, "Instant karma's gonna get you" - whether you like it or not.

[oneold1-4u]

318. If able to read--

Many should find the book, X PRIEST (early 60s) and if not found should put in for a reprinting. It was one of the best and earliest exposes of the catholic church.(Also banned!) When a youth is brought up in the church for the purpose of creating a priest, bishop, cardinal, pope, it is in itself a cruel manifesto. He must deny all others; women, children, the poor, and be able to adjust to the idea that the church is "ALL and ALL POWER" and he with it, is omnipotent!
Once highly educated and accepted into the priesthood, the man is totally shunned if he chooses to leave. Forty years ago the man could not even get a job as a teacher and had to go to a second hand store for clothing befitting someone unemployed! (Expensive silk suits didn't impress well!)
The church could still possibly muster the "Roman Hordes" but today would likely meet up with the near destruction of, not only the RC, but of the christian faith.
If "god's chosen" are the powers today, the whole world has a problem!