Pope near death...

[caledesi]

No real details.

BBC reporting on MSNBC and CNN 3:20 AM EST.

[Maple]

1. heart failure

septic shock

[Scooter24]

2. Update

Pope is now in a coma. MSNBC 225am...

[saigon68]

3. Not good for the faithful.

[MADem]

5. CNN has live international feed

They are saying yes, a coma, no, not a coma--that is coming out of the Vatican at this moment (i.e. no one knows what story to tell, a sign of disarray in the heirarchy). But the Cardinals are arriving, so that tells us something.

Well, one of three things could happen. He could worsen, and pass, he could linger on for some time, or he could miraculously improve.

This certainly turns the media lens in rather decisive fashion, doesn't it?

He has lost forty pounds since the Gemelli hospitalization. Not good.

[Redstone]

46. Or even those of us with less faith...

Though I disagreed with much of his dogma, and don't care for the Catholic church in general, he did much that was good.

Redstone

[rsmith6621]

4. I Guess We Will

Probably be POPELESS by the morning.


Im sorry to be so harsh in these last hours of the Pontifs life but lets get REAL......God doesnt look at him any different than he does you.....The world wont be any different with or without him(maybe the church will be).

I wonder how many payoffs to those memebers that were raped and fondled by those under his authority he signed off on......He Will Have To Answer To God On That.

Im frankly tierd of the every TEN minute updates that have been happening on the radio tonight.......Like the Schiavo case this TO is turning into a circus.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Henny Penny]

11. one good thing he did...

was to be very anti the Iraq war. If he had been in a position to articulate his view point more clearly, it might have helped erode the support of the Christian right wing.

Lets hope his successor shares this position and speaks good American English!

[Up2Late]

6. AP: Vatican Officials deny Pope is in Coma

At least that's what it says in the MSNBC on screen graphic.

[MADem]

8. CNN I just had Valls, the Vatican spokesman on

He is conscious, lucid and his situation is "extremely serious." Anything could happen. He concelebrated mass this morning and did the Stations of the Cross.

Valls said he was peaceful, serene. The reporters are saying that while his state is dire, he continues to conduct his daily business.

The pope made the decision not to go to hospital, and that his doctors said that the medical attention he needed could be provided from his apartments.

They are showing a live shot of ST Peter's square, and there are people milling about. I see a few more carabinieri than normal, though.

[okoboji]

9. "while his state is dire, he continues to conduct his daily business."

does this include the ..... the Hokey Pokey?

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. This guy sounds like he's full of crap

why would the pope do the Stations of the Cross after Easter? Especially in his condition. Give me a break.

[MADem]

12. Because he does them EVERY FRIDAY

...and has for at least 27 years. It is his routine. The fact that he did them (actually, just had them read, most likely, and paid attention) is supposed to be taken as a sign that he is alert and aware.

Valls is reliable. He's been in the job for many years, and has earned the credibility he has. Not an Ari type.

[DoYouEverWonder]

13. I'll take your word for it

when I grew up, we only did the Stations of the Cross during Lent but I guess if you're the Pope, you can do them any time you damn well please.

[MADem]

15. That's the normal procedure in my experience as well

...but he has a long held affinity for the ritual, and it has been on his schedule every Friday for decades. He used to go out with a bigass cross and do them at the Colosseum during Lent when he was healthy.

I know more about his quirks than most, because I lived in Italy for many years and he's a minor rock star over there.

[THUNDER HANDS]

51. Vatican Spokesman:

"The Pope is fine. He's having Pop-Tarts."

[NNN0LHI]

14. Shouldn't he be at a hospital or something? Are they letting him just die?

:shrug:

[Lithos]

16. There is a hospital inside the Vatican

catered towards caring for an ailing or geriatric Pope. About all they lack is a surgical theatre or very specialized care.

L-

[NNN0LHI]

19. From the reports it sounds like he may need a heart transplant?

I would hope that they would get him to a place where that could be done if needed pronto. I would prefer for whomever is in charge over there would err on the side of life in this case.

Don

[Lithos]

22. Heart Transplant?

No, he is not a good candidate and would likely stroke out on the table even if it were appropriate.

At this point, much speculation will occur about what is going on. About all that anyone can say is he is probably receiving some of the best care possible and that there is probably very little the doctors don't know about his wishes. I imagine at this point it is pretty much a fixed script.


L-

[NNN0LHI]

25. Yea. A heart transplant

An 81 year old man has had a heart transplant before.

Don

[Lithos]

40. I think that's his age now

If it was the Canadian guy, he was 79 at the time and in better health.

Stamford University recommends an upper age limit of 70-75 for heart transplants.

L-

[NNN0LHI]

42. The transplant was performed in Canada. And not to pic nits he was 81

The oldest heart transplant recipient, transplanted at age 81 at the University of Alberta, is alive and well two years later.

http://www.kidney.org/atoz/atozItem.cfm?id=158

[Ilsa]

55. He has Parkinsons Disease. Even with a "new" heart,

he is likely to suffer the same trauma (illnesses secondary to Parkinsons) to his bladder, kidneys, and new heart in a matter of weeks. He really is no condition for a heart transplant. It would likely hasten his death.

[NNN0LHI]

62. Do you think he belongs in an intensive care unit or in his apartment?

That is the real question here. Isn't it?

Don

[Ilsa]

70. He belongs where he wants to be, especially if he knows he is

near the end. If I knew I was dying (no matter what), I'd rather die comfortably in my own bed, no junk running through me, no hospitals, no nurses checking me all the time, inserting a Foley catheter, people flashing penlights in my pupils, etc. Just to be around the things and people I love. But that would be my preference.

ICU is a pretty impersonal place (as necessary). Hospice or your own home would be a better place to pass on.

[ElectroPrincess]

20. If he becomes stabilized, they best take him to the hospital to

have a feeding tube placed into the stomach. If "The Vatican" does NOT do that, then these Catholic leaders are behaving hypocritical by speaking out about the Schiavo Case.

Feeding tubes for *all* breathing, heart beating peoples!

[Lithos]

24. He already has a feeding tube

in place.

n/t.

[NNN0LHI]

38. It is in his nose and probably not helping his breathing to have it there

The poster suggested it should be placed in his stomach. Its not the same thing.

Don

[Lithos]

41. Depends

On how he is breathing. He still has the tracheotomy that I think is still open.

L-

[ElectroPrincess]

49. Only a temporary one, like I stated earlier, he needs a stomach tube

If his condition stabilized. Even if he goes into a coma, The Holy Father's wishes was to use *every* medical intervention to keep him alive. A nasal-gastric tube is just a quick-fix and not well tolerated by the vast majority of patients.

[MADem]

17. He doesn't want to go to hospital

He has a crash cart and all sorts of equipment in his apartments. I think they are trying to stabilize his BP, which is said to be fluctuating, but he is the one making the calls, so they say.

[NNN0LHI]

23. How do we know that for sure? Who said that?

Is the Pope in any shape to be making these kinds of decisions on his own anyway? Someone needs to take the bull by the horns here and get him to where anything can be done to help him. I am worried someone is just letting him die. I sure hope not.

Don

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

43. I see no humor with the possibility of this man dying

I just want everything done to help him survive.

Don

[Cooley Hurd]

18. CNN reporting the Vatican Press Office will be open 24 hrs....

...starting today (indicating that the end is near for John Paul II). Normally, it's open until 3pm.

Also, the Pope's personal Dr broke down and cried at the morning press conference given at the Vatican (also indicating the Pope is near death)...

(my GD thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3400506&mesg_id=3400506 )

[ElectroPrincess]

21. I'm hoping and praying that he pulls through this crisis ...

There's always hope. :-)

[Hissyspit]

26. Reuters: Vatican Denies Pope Slipped Into Coma ('Rubbish')

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-04-01T084812Z_01_L0134112_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-POPE-DC.XML

Vatican Denies Pope Slipped Into Coma
Fri Apr 1, 2005 03:48 AM ET

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A Vatican official dismissed as "rubbish" Italian media reports that Pope John Paul had fallen into a coma.
On Friday morning, the Vatican described the Pope's health as "very grave" after the 84-year-old suffered heart failure.

Later, two Italian news agencies and the teletext service of Italian state broadcaster RAI reported the Pope had fallen into a coma. But the Vatican official knocked the reports down.

Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls was due to brief reporters on the Pope's health at 5:30-6:00 a.m. EST.

MORE

[darkism]

27. Strong words, for the Vatican. n/t

[Hissyspit]

28. Fixing link; hold on

[Hissyspit]

31. Link fixed n/t

[bluestateguy]

29. Oh God, I hope not

I'd really rather not have an INTERNATIONAL Terri Schiavo debate.

[saigon68]

30. We'll see !!! --- 6 hours ago they said he was Recovering Nicely

These Spokesofficials are good at COVER-UPS.

[MADem]

32. All those cardinals are just "happening" to visit Rome

With no notice--just to offer best wishes, of course. Usually they wait until at least mid-April, you get better weather then. My take: there is a battle for control going on within the heirarchy. They're doing an informal canvass of the candidates, and lining up delegates. It's like a pre-convention rehearsal!

The question is, will the Pope accomodate them and pass on, or will he linger? Or recover?

If he passes, then it will get interesting. I think they will want a quick vote, because excessive infighting presents a poor face to the world, and the way things are going, you have to wonder who they will pick. An insider, who has been acquiring power over the years, or a pastoral fellow, like JP the First? Or perhaps an outsider, though the likelihood of a non-Italian again seems less likely than it might have been before the sex scandals...there is some appeal in a "traditional" (read: safe) choice. Who knows, though?

[bklyncowgirl]

35. You have a really good point, I don't believe these reports.

My guess is the Pope is in pretty bad shape and that the vultures are starting to swarm around the Vatican. John Paul II was conservative but there are leaders in the church who are way to the right of even him and these people have the influence.

I'd be very surprised if the next pope is a moderate.

[calimary]

74. Yeah, I'm afraid of that, too. There are lots of influences within the

Vatican that would like to see the Church move backwards.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. It's a class reunion! Purely coincidental events, nothing more.

[LiberteToujours]

33. I never understood the point of all the coverups

The world will know the truth within hours anyway, why do officials always feel the need to cover up the truth?

[Hissyspit]

34. kicking for the morning crowd

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. "He's not dead, he's just resting." - from Monty Python skit.

[NNN0LHI]

44. MSNBC's Chris Jansing at the Vatican just reported the Pope ...

...asked if perhaps he should be brought to the hospital and someone told him it wasn't necessary. I personally don't like the sound of this.

Don

[goodboy]

45. Anyone wanna guess WHY he won't be moved to a hospital?

answer: he's probably on life support, and they don't want anyone knowing that they pull the plug.


just a thought.

[Jersey Devil]

48. I said that yesterday and everyone jumped all over me

It's not that they will pull the plug. It's probably more likely they will never use the machinery they could keep his body "alive" with after it is clear he definitely will not survive.

Sort of related to "plausible deniability". We would have hooked him up, but, gee, we're not a hospital.

[goodboy]

50. I don't know why anyone would jump on ya,...it's just the way the vatican

operates...real secretive types. This is the only way they could save face, especially after getting involved with that situation in florida with what's her name...(sarcasm off)

[patcox2]

68. What do they need deniability about?

Catholic church position is clear. He may, consistent with doctrine, refuse "heroic measures" or "artificial" means of prolonging life. he probably has.

There was an article posted yesterday that completely distorted this topic and gave some idiots opinion that the pope had a living will saying he would want all measures taken. It was total bullshit.

The pope has explained the church's belief that feeding and hydration are should not be included within the definition of "heroic measures" or "artificial life extension." Thats why he has a feeding tube, but nevertheless probably has a DNR and has no intention of being put on a respirator or dialysis.

By the way, New Jersey's statutory form of living will makes the same distinction regarding feeding and hydration, separating them from other "artificial" means of prolonging life and giving a separate option with regard to them. There's nothing medieval or hypocritical about this topic, sorry, and nothing to be hidden.

[Almost_there]

58. I don't think he's on advanced life support...

I think that he refused to go to the hospital with the feeling that since he knows machines could keep him alive for years, yet incapacited, leaving the Church leaderless, he may simply prefer to live out the remainder of his life with dignity and strength in his Vatican Apartments. I think he might know his time is near, and prefer to simply receive what care he can in the Vatican.

As a Catholic, I know of the good he has done in this world, the people he has touched, and just because you don't agree with someone, mocking them at the end of their lives is pretty sad. We on this board mourn the passing of Democrats, such as when Senator Wellstone died, but, we mock the passing of those who aren't democrats. This is why I always feel so on the fringe here. Maybe I'm not a cruel enough person to those I don't agree with. And maybe actually believing in God puts me at odds with many here. Oh well. I wish for the best for the Pope, and I thank him for the good he has done, and still love him even if I disagree with some of what he has said.

[NNN0LHI]

63. He has been to the hospital twice in the past month or so

Why wouldn't he wish to be there now?

Don

[Almost_there]

69. Just my thought...

For my two cents, I think that he is living by the "Not my will, but Yours" in referring to leaving his obvious fate in the hands of God. I don't know if he has a living will or not, the Vatican has been silent on that, but, I don't think the Pope would want to be kept alive by a heart / lung machine, knowing he would basically leave the Church leaderless while he is kept alive with little hope of recovery. I don't know, but, there may come a time in all of our lives where we realize the struggle is approaching an end, and for Pope John Paul II, perhaps he has reached that level of acceptance.

I truly wish he were well, he has done such good for the Church and the world community, certain doctines notwithstanding, but, he has many medical problems, and he may feel God is calling him home. If that is what he believes and feels, perhaps that is why he is choosing to stay in his apartment and maintain his strength of character and dignity.

[beyurslf]

47. Unconfirmed report he is in coma but that was denied

by the Vatican.

Of course, they also said he was ok yesterday. Anyone else think we won't know he has died for at least a day. He could be gone now and they just won't tell us.

[NNN0LHI]

52. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta just said he should be in intensive care right now

He said there are many procedures to help him there that are not available in his apartment at the Vatican. He don't understand what is going on either. Sanjay was shaking his head in disbelief that he was not in an intensive care unit. So just what is going on here? I say get this man to the hospital and into intensive care immediately.

Don

[Bridget Burke]

53. So hop a flight to Rome & pull an intervention.

Maybe Tom DeLay will help.

[NNN0LHI]

64. Do you see some humor in letting this man die in his apartment?

Would you let your own loved one die in their apartment? Or would you get them to the hospital?

Don

[Patiod]

72. I worked in hospice - a lot of people prefer to die at home

Once they have a terminal Dx, they make it clear they are not to be be brought to a hospital at the end.

It is a lot easier to be at home, with all your "stuff", your smells, your sounds, where you know that time of day by the way the light is coming in the windows, where no one is poking at you at all hours to chart your BP and temp (which is pointless by this time).

[NNN0LHI]

73. I fully agree with that sentiment

If his doctor has told him that he only has hours or days to like I would understand completely. It just appears that this man is one heck of a fighter. Look at what he has been through. Being shot, having Parkinson's, and other ailments and he has still pulled out of all that. I doubt too many people could have survived what he has.

I was just thinking if there was any chance whatsoever he can pull out of this and recover the place for him would be in ICU. Perhaps I am wrong about all this? But I know where my elderly father would be right now in this same situation if he were unable to make the choice himself. He would have been in ICU a long time ago.

Don

[Renew Deal]

56. The old guy wants to die.

That's my guess. All the talk about him being serenely peaceful and having death passages read to him makes it seem that way. I was wondering how they propped up an 84 year old sick man a couple days ago. It shouldn't have happened.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1359919

[orpupilofnature57]

54. While we're waiting for the pope to die, Shrub's "Dominion theocracy"...

Eat's away Christianity, the economy, and our youth.

[Almost_there]

59. Huh?

Could you explain this? "Eat's away Christianity, the economy, and our youth"? I am clueless on what this means.. and also, the word is "Eats".. "Eat's" is.. uh, "eat is", I guess.. maybe "Christianity belongs to eat?"

And you seem to be very compassionate towards the billion Catholics in this world..

[Bridget Burke]

61. He can't blame the Catholics for Dominionism....

Even though a few grandstanding priests & bishops went along with that gang because they're anti-abortion--& coming out "in favor of" the Late Mrs. Schaivo was a good way to get publicity.

Check out the Dominionists & Christian Reconstructionists. They HATE Catholics. Actually, they don't much care for most Protestants, either....

[spinbaby]

57. What do they mean by heart failure?

A heart attack? His heart stopped and they had to shock him to get him started again?

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

60. No - Dr. Gupta called it "circulatory collapse"

He said his pulse is unstable and his heart isn't getting blood efficiently to all of his organs. He said there have been no reports that his heart stopped.

[CottonBear]

65. Dr. Gupta should STFU.

He hasn't examined the pope and thus should not diagnose him.
He's "Fristing."

[DS1]

66. Gupta's a complete idiot

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

67. In his defense, he actually stated that of course he hadn't examined him

[CottonBear]

71. I'm sure that the CNN legal department makes him say that. n't