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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:21 PM
Original message
Peak Oil Acknowledged in US Congress
My Comment: We are no longer conspiracy theorists and wingnut doomsday alarmists,not that we ever were. I'm speechless. Read the entire report, which is lenghty, at link below or go to www.thomas.loc.gov to see Congressional record. Speechless.


Here:
< Conservative Congressman Roscoe Bartlett, Chairman of the Projection Forces Subcommittee of the Armed Services Committee, gave an hour long presentation on Peak Oil to the US Congress on Monday. This is the full transcript. We hope to get a hold of the graphs used by Mr. Bartlett and will update this article to include them if they come to hand. -AF[br />
A couple of Congresses ago, I was privileged to chair the Energy Subcommittee on Science. One of the first things I wanted to do was to determine the dimensions of the problem. We held a couple of hearings and had the world experts in. Surprisingly from the most pessimistic to the most optimistic, there was not much deviation in what the estimate is as to what the known reserves are out there. It is about 1,000 gigabarrels. That sounds like an awful lot of oil. But when you divide into that the amount of oil which we use,
about 20 million barrels a day, and the amount of oil the rest of the world uses, about 60 million barrels a day, as a matter of fact, the total now is a bit over the 80 million that those two add up to. About 83 1/2 , I think. If you divide that into the 1,000 gigabarrels, you come out at about 40 years of oil remaining in the world. That is pretty good. Because up until the Carter years, during the Carter years, in every decade we used as much oil as had been used in all of previous history. Let me repeat that, because that is startling. In every decade, we used as much oil as had been used in all of previous history. The reason for that, of course, was that we were on the upward side of this bell curve. The bell curve for usage, only part of it is shown on this chart. That is the green one down here, the bell curve for usage. Notice that we are out here now about 2005. Where is it going? The Energy Information Agency says that we are going to keep on using more oil. This green line just going up and up and up is a projection of the Energy Information Agency. But that cannot be true. That cannot be true for a couple of reasons. We peaked in our discovery of oil way back here in the late sixties, about 1970. In our country it peaked much earlier than that, by the way. But the world is following several years behind us. And the area under this red curve must be the same as the area under the green curve. You cannot pump any more oil than you have found, quite obviously. If you have not found it, you cannot pump it. If you were to extend this on out where they have extended their green line, even if it turned down right there at the end of that green line, the area under the green curve is going to be very much larger than the area under the red curve. That just cannot be. We will see in some subsequent charts that we probably have reached peak oil.

<snip>

Chart 9. This is a very interesting chart. It is a little too busy, but let me try to explain what is there. The oil companies for reasons of pricing and regulations and so forth have had the habit through the years of underreporting initially how much oil they found. Then later when it was appropriate to their license to produce more oil, they would report additional oil. They never found any additional oil. By the way you may have noted that three times in the last roughly 3 weeks, oil companies have admitted that their estimates of the reserves were exaggerated and have downscaled the reserves that they said were there. If you took the original reporting of the reserves, you might be able to construct a curve, a straight line curve which said we are just getting more and more. But if you backdated that to the actual discoveries, then you get this curve. This curve is asymtoting at a bit over 2,000 gigabarrels, which is about what the world's experts say had been there. We have now pumped about half of that. We have about 1,000 gigabarrels remaining.
they simply reported oil they had found previously.

<snip>

   What now? Where do we go now? One observer, Matt Savinar, who has thoroughly researched the options, and this is not the most optimistic assessment, by the way, but may be somewhat realistic, he starts out by saying, Dear Readers, civilization as we know it is coming to an end soon. I hope not. This is not the wacky proclamation of a doomsday cult, apocalypse Bible sect or conspiracy theory society. Rather, it is a scientific conclusion of the best-paid, most widely respected geologists, physicists and investment bankers in the world. These are rational, professional, conservative individuals who are absolutely terrified by the phenomenon known as global peak oil.

<snip>

 Why should they be terrified? Why should they be terrified just because we have reached the peak of oil production? Last year, China used about 30 percent more oil. India now is demanding more oil. As a matter of fact, China now is the second largest importer of oil in the world. They have passed Japan. When you look at how important oil is to our economy, you can understand the big concern if, in fact, we cannot produce oil any faster than we are producing it now and there are increasing demands, as there will be, for oil. In our country, for instance, we have a debt that we must service. It will be essentially impossible to service that debt if our economy does not continue to grow. So there are enormous potential consequences, which is why he says that these people are absolutely terrified by the phenomenon known as peak oil.


http://www.energybulletin.net/4733.html
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Told Everyone So - Though It's Good To Be Validated!
eom
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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Any thinking being who sat in gas lines in the early '70s. . .
knew instinctively this day would one day come. All that's different now is there's confirmation for what was a reasoned theory.

Here's what I push to the max: After September 11, George Bush had an opportunity to call this nation to be something greater than we are. . . we could have addressed the issues of dwindling energy supplies and the role alternative fuels can play in the world's economy and the general safety and happiness of all, but he chose instead to drag us into a useless war based on lies and deceptions. If "peak oil" or whatever we call it has a villain, it might as well be George.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Line up all of the Nations SUVs and passenger pick-ups in ....
...front of junk yard crushers, in five years they will be illegal to drive. Street cars, buses and trains are the future transportation mode of the country and will be run by electricity generated from centralized renewable energy plants or the pebble nuclear fuel plants until another form of Nicholas Tesla energy sources are rediscovered. Boy, will the country every be able to breath freely when the vile oil interests disappear!:bounce:
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. jump 4 joy if u like, oil is used for MORE than gas and power....
zillions of things are made with petroleum derivatives, like plastics and other synthetics for example, so say good bye to all your computers and related machinery like your precious TVs, cell phones, and dvds too.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/liberaltshirts.htm
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Exactly, so why burn it just to get from here to there?
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. You are so right!
I have long maintained that oil was too precious to burn as fuel. The day will come when we as a civilization will regret it.n
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
37. Find the thread bitching about
burning coal for electricity.

You can't win.
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Why not biodegradable plastics made from corn or soybeans?
Tough as Soybeans
Lori Valigra, Special to The Christian Science Monitor

CAMBRIDGE, MASS. - Back in 1940, when Henry Ford wanted to test the strength of a car trunk made from an experimental soybean-based material, he stunned onlookers by whacking it with an ax.

Mr. Ford may have been an eccentric, but he also was way ahead of his time in trying new materials to improve cars. The trunk was made of soy-protein plastic reinforced with glass, a material that proved to be stronger, lighter, and more flexible than conventional car panels. Ford grew many varieties of soybeans in a field near his company's Detroit auto factory to find a plant with the optimal material properties. By doing so, he planted the seed for the new crop of biomaterial composites that are sprouting up today.

Now, more than six decades later, vehicle, lumber, furniture, housing, and other manufacturers are finally seeing the benefits of such "green" materials. New and better composite materials made from plastic combined with natural fibers or plants such as hemp, kenaf, sisal, or soybeans can be manufactured and used for at least the same cost as conventional materials, and sometimes for much less.
...
http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/wit_article.pl?script/2000/01/20/p11s1.txt
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Those Can be Made out of Recycyled Stuff Too
The problem is that oil will become too expensive to burn for energy.
That's not the same as there not being any more oil at all.

Plastic can be recycled, as can most of the stuff that goes into making electronics.

Peak oil doesn't mean that everything that is made from petroleum
products will just go away.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. And in the mean time I am in Hawaii and would want to get
back home in a reasonable amount of time. Street cars, trains and buses would have a hard time making the trip. I am 4000 miles from home. Wind power ships? Too many people out here would starve to death in the mean time. We need to come up with a storeable energy source with the punch of oil. The SUV's will roll to a stop in their own good time - a drop in the bucket.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. And the Bushreich cuts Amtrak funding in response!!
One of the biggest crimes in this country has been the purposeful neglect and downright dismantling of this nation's passenger rail system -- a scheme that has taken such patience and deliberance in its unfolding that generations of Americans living today have no memory of a time when travel by train was commonplace. And now, at a time when it is abundantly clear that an extensive, modern and efficient rail system will be vital to this country's survival, the Bushreich continues to drive the passenger rail into extinction so that even more cars, trucks, SUVs and other energy-wasting machines can further fill the coffers of the rich in the oil and auto industries.

To think that an honest government initiative to revitalize the nations' rail sytem would provide millions of new, well-paying union jobs (both directly in rail companies' employment rolls and also in the steel and fabrication industries) whilst reducing our dependence on a vanishing energy supply -- well, these very ideas go against every greedy, unpatriotic, self-serving aim as represented by the Bushreich and the corporate elitists who serve as its base... the "have mores", as GWB himself described them.

It's time to DEMAND a national initiative to revitalize the passenger rail serevice in this country. Moreover, as we develop the modern technologies and expand the current system, we must also insure that the infrastructure available to us now is preserved, supported and upgraded.

We cannot not wait for tomorrows. This action MUST be pursued by our elected men and women of government with urgency. The future depends upon it.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. the DOUBLING TIME is always a startling revelation in the real world
Edited on Tue Mar-15-05 07:48 PM by bpilgrim
who's gonna educate the media so they can educate the rest of us?

Dr. Bartlett is a retired Professor of Physics who does a very good job putting it in layman's terms...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/Al_Bartlett-PeakOil.mp4

see also...

Arithmetic, Population, and Energy
http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/symposium/bartlett/bartlett.html

and for further study on PEAK, a must visit site, named after the guy who first published correct mathmatical perdictions on PEAK OIL production, Dr. M. King Hubbert...
http://www.hubbertpeak.com


thanks for sharing, BOOKMARKED and pass'd along :toast:
peace
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I'm stunned at the frankness
though wary of motives and frightened at the prospect of BIG Business solutions. I'm sure everyone will have a marketable FIX. But this is a good thing to present to those who have been raising eyebrows at us "Whackos" who have been warning of this for a few years. People forget Cassandra was right.

:toast:
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. i've only read your snips so far, but this is something they can't spin
away anymore... so they know that they risk losing the peoples trust completely now is the time to lay the reality cards on the table, at least not to mention the Internets were abuzz with the writings on the wall.

i too worry about the corporate 'fix' as well since this needs to be dealt with at the NATIONAL level.

any president in his right-mind would have JUMPED at the Kennedy-esk moment to take advantage of the unifying effects of 911 and set a goal to look for an alternative energy solution in a decade with the FULL backing of the US people.

but these OIL devils could only think of STEALING the worlds oil :puke:

i am trying to figure out the best place to move to... wish we had a site on getting prepared.

:hi:

peace
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
57. coming right before the ANWR vote
I can just see oil ruining all of the beaches, etc.- no more controls.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. They are only acknowledging Peak Oil in order to avoid blame
for not being able to control prices through OPEC manipulations.

Notice everyone is now talking about shortages of world oil instead of saying this administration failed with OPEC.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. they're mostly to blame for not PREPARING
they = our LEADERS, mostly the right-wing WACKOS and their media whores i.e. RUSH & clones and especially the corporate controlled M$MW.

what do we tell our children?

peace
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. bingo ---why are they NEVER accountable..... they had 30+ yrs
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. You got it! They ARE to blame! if they hadn't sat up there in DC
twiddling their thumbs and putting off doing something so they didn't look "nutty" to their constituents we would have a whole lot more hybrid cars and maybe even something completely petroleum independent by now!

I live in the damn burbs and I can tell you I fought like a dog when they started trying to build grocery stores and shopping malls out here. I finally realized several years ago that I was going to need them in the future and quit fighting it. I have no clue what we're all going to do for jobs though. They damn well better get moving on the mass transit we just passed.

I worry about all the Northeastern residents of this country. They use oil to heat their homes. What are they going to do for heat?

BTW, you should see how many people finally got the message and are trying to sell their homes in the burbs. Nothing is moving out here. Especially the extravagant homes that people have been building. I wonder what the housing market is like in the major cities?
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LdyGuique Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. He not only details peak oil, but the green revolution
He's hit Congress with the double whammy of concerns that I've had: peak oil and exploding population growth, underwritten by the green revolution. This is a MAJOR presentation. And, because he had to control the scientific jargon and use of statistical numbers, he's made it reasonably understandable (even without the charts being available to readers online).

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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
42. Exactly!!!!
Global population has increased from 2 billion in 1950 to 6.5 billion today, much of that made possible through extensive use of petroleum in agriculture.

What happens when oil is far less available, for agriculture or anything else? Crop yields will decline to what they were...enough to sustain 2 billion people. Meaning 4.5 billion starving people.

Can anyone say "die-off"?

And we are utterly unprepared.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. Here's more US government confirmation of Peak Oil
US report acknowledges peak-oil threat
By Adam Porter in Perpignan, France

Wednesday 09 March 2005, 18:23 Makka Time, 15:23 GMT

It has long been denied that the US government bases any policy around the idea that global oil production may be in terminal decline.


But a new US government-sponsored report, obtained by Aljazeera.net, does exactly that.

Authored by Robert Hirsch, Roger Bezdek and Robert Wendling and titled The Peaking of World Oil production: Impacts, Mitigation, & Risk Management, the report is an assessment requested by the US Department of Energy (DoE), National Energy Technology Laboratory.

It was prepared by Hirsch, who is a senior energy programme adviser at the private scientific and military company, Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC).

more...

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5EF86883-8CDB-49B5-9A07-5759205A9DBE.htm


Here's the complete report:

http://www.hilltoplancers.org/stories/hirsch0502.pdf
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. Seems as though this should trump SS as the real concern
40 years hence.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. oh hurrah
They've noticed. Modern society demands fuel. That is a step forward.

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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Before we all congratulate ourselves
I'd like to know exactly how many congressmen were present for the presentation. We've all seen speeches made to an empty chamber on C-Span. I'm just wondering if any notice was taken of this at all.
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Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. The fact that it is now in the congressional record
removes it from the conspiracy theorist column. That is a huge step.

It may have been read to an empty room, but it was read into the record.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Well, Gilchrest was there with Bartlett. I watched it. Was a good
presentation. I don't believe it was intended to inform the House, but rather the American public. But hey, who watches CSPAN? People who need to know, or people who already know? Sigh.

Bartlett and Gilchrest are both Repubs, by the way, but I really liked what they presented and told them so.....probably WON'T like where it leads them...although they will be doing another one hour speech/presentation on alternative energy sources from agriculture.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. excellent point
Edited on Tue Mar-15-05 09:49 PM by bpilgrim
but, this is now on official US gov. record, which is not only historical in and of itself, but it is all some Americans will sadly listen to anymore and besides, you know what they say, even a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step... another drop in the bucket for truth's team ;->

psst... pass the word

peace
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Terry in Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
18. A note on the arithmetic
He's astonishingly frank here, and that's good. However, the arithmetic he uses to come up with "40 years' worth left" contains a common flaw: it assumes that demand is steady.

Historically, demand has increased about 2.2 percent per year; more recently, about 2.5%. If you factor that in, it's more like 23 years.

Even that represents a theoretical total exhaustion of the supply, which won't actually happen. The scarce-oil crunch will come a lot sooner.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. He did speak frequently on escalating demand, to my recollection.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Jevons Paradox
<snip>
Let me give one little example. Suppose there is a small businessman who owns a store. He is really concerned about peak oil, and he is concerned about energy, and he wants to do something. His little store is using $1,000 worth of electricity a month, and he decides that he can really cut that use. So he does several things. He gets a storm door. He puts on storm windows. He insulates more. He turns down the thermostat, and he asks his workers to wear sweaters. And he is successful because he reduces his electric bill from $1,000 to $500. Almost no matter what he does with that $500, he has just made the situation worse by doing that.

Let me explain. One of the things that he may do, and it is a natural thing for a small businessperson to do, he may decide, I could hire more people and have a bigger business if I expanded. And so now he will expand, and he will still be using as much energy. Or if he decides to invest his money, if he invests his money in the bank, the bank will lend his money out five or six times, and at least some of those loans will be to small business people. And what the small business people will do is to create jobs and use energy. So the store owner is concerned about energy and the environment and being a responsible citizen, cutting his use of electricity, because everybody did not do it, because only he did it and nobody took advantage of the opportunity that was presented because he used less energy, he really contributed to the problem.

Because after he expanded his business, he would be using still more energy. Or if the money was lent out by the bank and small businesses created more jobs and they used more energy, the situation would have just gotten worse.

<end>

oh, so thats why the reTHUGs didn't want us to conserve energy all these years, ah compassionate, visionaries ;->

peace
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. Surely some asshole wants to call you a tinfoil hatter for posting this?
5
4
3
2
1
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kick - This Needs To Be Seen By More Folks
eom
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
23. It's about frigging time!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
30. Right Under Your Noses!
DU Energy and Environment Forum

I've been active in that forum for some time now, and I recall very few of you showing up there. There are maybe a dozen of us who are active, but if you read through the last couple months of messages, you'll find a wealth of information about these topics.

But be warned: The prognosis is not good. In fact, it's dire. Some of us think it's hopeless. I'm probably the most optimistic one there, and I think we're screwed, too. Just not quite as bad as the total die-off contingent (who, to be fair, make better arguments than I do).

Come one. Come all. Get educated.

--p!
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. wow
bookmarked :hi:

peace
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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #30
69. Very impressed with the energy forum
thanks for posting this.
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Jokinomx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thanks chlamor for this very important post...
I have been told by my family that I am too pessimistic... that someone somewhere will figure out a solution. I completely disagreed with them. I told them I hoped they were right...but in the mean time I have started a food storage. I have been buying cases of canned goods as they go on sale. I justify it as its the prudent thing to do. To be ready for ANY emergency... earthquake, tornado, power outage....ect. But the main reason..is a collapsing economy caused by rising oil prices.

Anyway... thanks again... and good luck in your part of the world.

:toast:
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. I think learning the fundamental basics of growing food on a farm
may be more practical, provided we don't completely poison our soil too in 20 years.
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Jokinomx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
60. I agree Donailin....
However, not all of us have access to the land neccessary to have a garden. I see shortages in all products sometime in the forseeable future. Prices will skyrocket for many items. So to have a cushion of supplies on hand will lessen the impact of inflation.

No matter what... it will be a very hard next few decades.

Good luck...
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
34. 2005-US48 takes 1bbl of energy to pump 1bbl of crude
You might as well leave it in the ground.

Net energy will repeat iiself w/ the tars sands
as well.

Get as local as possible.
Get out of debt.

Again, follow the price increases through the supply chain
and figure out what items will go up.  Answer: plastics,
food, gasoline, anything moved around by trains, planes,
and trucks.  And what will go down.  Answer: Your standard
of living.  The impact of the backside of Peak Oil is a
gradual decline of prosperity. Happy talk about cold fusion
and abiotic oil may be fine, but in the first case it's not here
yet, and in the latter case, we continue consuming more oil
than abiotic processes could ever produce in our
consumption
lifetimes.

http://www.urbansurvival.com/week.htm


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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. Agree. The Thermodynamic Aspect Is What Most Do Not Grasp
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 12:19 AM by loindelrio
Peak oil is primarily an economic event. Demand for a price inelastic commodity chasing too little, and eventually declining, supply. Price transients will wreak economic havoc similar to the 70' shocks.

As the decline in conventional oil accelerates, EROEI (thermodynamics) will destroy capitalist economies.

All of the post-peak supply mitigation options have net energy returns well below those of even today’s conventional oil. This means we will have to work hard just to replace the Quads of conventional oil energy lost. Growth in energy supply will not be possible, therefore economic growth will also not be possible.

Of course, most will react to this by saying peak oil is just a corporatist conspiracy, or will be solved by conservation, or the market will find a solution. The standard talking points.

Thing is, I have done the reading, have a technical background, have some coursework in economics. I feel the theory the projections are based on are sound. My conclusion is that we had better get our head and our ass wired together quick, or peak oil is going to take a giant shit on us.

If someone does the reading and comes to a different conclusion, so be it. Nothing is certain, except death and taxes (unless you’re rich in America).
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. Thank you, loindelrio, a wonderfully concise explanation
When Ghawar peaks (Ghawar is the largest oil field ever
found) Saudi Arabia peaks and when Saudi Arabia peaks
the whole World peaks.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/hommelberg120404.html

OPEC says they will raise production 500000 bbls
per day.

A field discovery that produces 500000 bbls per
day would make you president of the company
that discovered it.

There are four oil fields in the world which produce over
one million barrels per day. Ghawar, which produces 4.5
million barrels per day, Cantarell in Mexico, which
produces nearly 2 million barrels per day, Burgan in
Kuwait which produces 1 million barrels per day and Da Qing
in China which produces 1 million barrels per
day.

Cantarell and Da Qing are declining. I don't believe anything
Kuwait says. They've been stealing Iraq oil
since 1989 and calling it theirs. That leaves
Ghawar. And the faster its pumped the more damage
is caused, stranding more oil in the ground.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0408/S00157.htm
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. A Lot Of Eggs In That Ghawar Basket
And if it is true that they have been pushing the field too hard, as you note and some insiders imply, the declining leg of the supply curve may be steeper than expected.
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. Rumor has it that salt water is rising rapidly in Ghawar
Nothing you can tie a reference to, but at the ASPO forums, there were several discussions with the Iranian rep. (whose name I can't recall) about just what's happening with EOR operations on Ghawar.

Apparently the Saudis have been intensively injecting salt water for a number of years so as to maintain maximum production. This means that Ghawar, when it rolls over, will likely do so very quickly.

Incidentally, the ASPO monthly newsletters are great for country-by-country summaries of where the major fields are, what discovery and production trends are doing and a handy compendium of oil- and oil-industry-related news stories.
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #61
66. Hello Hatrack, we've migrated to LBN
Non-OPEC oil producers are mostly pumping at capacity as well. Norway,

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=a1G9Mx6vIqrs&refer=home#

``What will happen after the OPEC meeting is that they will all
be producing at capacity,'' said Kenneth Deffeyes,
professor emeritus of petroleum geology at Princeton
University and author of the book Hubbert's Peak:
The Impending World Oil
Shortage.

``OPEC is irrelevant,'' Deffeyes said in an interview in New
York. Saudi Arabia has little or no production capacity
beyond what it has been using in recent months, and
pumping fields faster may damage them, said Deffeyes,
who predicts that global oil output has peaked and will begin
to decline.

Oil production growth in Russia, the second-largest oil
exporter, this year will be the lowest rate since 1999, when
$10 oil restrained development, making consumers more
reliant on OPEC, according to the International Energy Agency
in Paris.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=avWfywQCa044&refer=home

$57.15/bbl

Since there is absolutely no intention by the
suits in DC/NYC to educate the crowds on this,
and what the crowds believe, by definition, has
to be a lie, there will be no warning when the Empire
totters, and the crowd heads for the exits as one.

Americans can no more pull back from their dream than
Napolean could recall his troops from outside
France.


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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
36. somehow, 'i told you so' doesn't do it justice
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #36
54. ttt
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
38. Once again 30 #$*(#$@^ years too #$#$#( late
Dammit, I screwed around in the late 70's taking electives in energy conservation, just hoping by the time I graduated there would be jobs to make a difference in the world for developing alternate fuel sources. But you congressional bastards blew it off because of some alleged oil glut. And you let those fucking gas guzzlers back on the road, CAFE be damned.

Well eat in the shit you created. I will find another way to survive while you stew in your morass. We fucking told you so after the first oil crisis. Dipshits.
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loritooker Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
39. Much of the remaining oil will stay in the ground because of the expense
of bringing it up, let alone the environmental degradation inherent in processes such as the development of "tar sands". Plus much of the oil is not the kind that can be made into fuel, but is of lower grade and therefore not as desirable plus being harder to refine. So the estimate of 1000 gigabarrels left in the world may be true, but, as I understand it, much of it will never come out.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. I don't think governments will care about environmental degradation
Business, etc. will come first. That's what I predict. The world will become ugly.

Maybe they'll save a few pristine areas for the enormously wealthy. Some islands somewhere.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
41. Another source of scrap metal -- airplanes. Thus, why would anyone....
...subsidize either the construction or the operation of more commercial airlines?

Why would one spend billions designing yet another supersonic killing machine?

Lots of questions. Few of us have answers. The few that do will be in high demand in the next 5-10 years.

Peace.

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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
44. Opec says it's lost control of oil prices
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
45. Kick - Keeping Thread Alive For Exposure
Once Again, DUers Were Ahead Of The Curve!
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
46. kick again!
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
47. The timing of the report is interesting
Peak Oil was tinfoil hat stuff to these hyenas until now. Maybe they're embracing the truth in an attempt to obscure the impact of the declining dollar on crude prices?
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osiristz Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
48. Opinions from the other side of the coin
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 03:10 AM by osiristz
Check out these articles on this subject. I've been interested in this for a while, but what there people are saying is amazing if it is true. Somehow, I believe it is considering many in the US government have money in Oil.
What better way to make a profit than to scare everyone into thinking it's almost gone. Jack the price, skim the spoils, pack the wallet, voila!

http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/peakoil.html

and

http://rense.com/general63/myth.htm
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #48
63. PEAK OIL MYTH??
That article by Charles H. Featherstone looks as though he believes superman will come along and save the world.. Inasmuch as his article contaims great information, his conclusions are too optimistic, IMO..

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
49. kick!
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
50. If you didn't see it, he used a lot of this material
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 07:01 AM by screembloodymurder
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
51. kick
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chlamor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
52. OPEC Meets today in Iran
OPEC states it cannot control prices-"It's out of our hands"
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trekbiker Donating Member (724 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
56. Incredible report..
Most of us are going to witness an incredible transformation in the next decade or two. I sure hope I survive it..
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
59. Unfortunately, this makes the Bush empire's job a little easier
Edited on Wed Mar-16-05 01:29 PM by rocknation
If they no longer have to pretend they're not raping the Mideast (not to mention the rest of the world) for oil (not that domestic prices would decrease), then they can justify doing ANYTHING in terms of getting their hands on it.

:headbang:
rocknation
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The Animator Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
62. Isn't there a way to convert Deisel engines to run on Soy or somthing?
I remember hearing something to that effect quite some time ago.

Also deisel engines can run on used cooking grease?

GM did some R&D on fuel cells a few years ago as well.
http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/08/autos/auto_tech/

Or you could do your own:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell.htm
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jmcgowanjm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. Soy is not found energy
We use the equivalent of 7 Hiroshima Bombs
to keep the soil clean and agitated, in Iowa alone.
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_testify_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
64. _kick_
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DemocracyInaction Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
67. Why do I smell "nuclear"??
These repubs never let anything come to 'light' that they don't want to come to 'light'. Thus, I do always look for motives. I suspect that they soon will push for nuclear energy again and building of reactors all over the country AND I expect that they want the American people to be very willing to use "nukes" on others if we are terrified of losing our SUV privileges.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-17-05 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. Hydrogen Hydrogen Hydrogen Hydrogen Hydrogen
http://www.iahe.org/

http://www.eere.energy.gov/RE/hydrogen.html

http://www.h2net.org.uk/

http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/news_detail.cfm/news_id=8818

http://www.euronuclear.org/library/public/enews/ebulletinspring2004/hydrogen.htm

Google hydrogen based economy: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Hydrogen+based+economy

http://www.you.com.au/news/1604.htm
"George W. Bush arrived in Washington, DC, as a Texan with deep roots in the oil business. In the days following September 11, however, he transformed himself into the National Security President. Today, his ambition to protect the United States from emerging threats overshadows his industry ties. By throwing his power behind hydrogen, Bush would be gambling that, rather than harming Big Oil, he could revitalize the moribund industry. At the same time, he might win support among environmentalists, a group that has felt abandoned by this White House."

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